rec1man On Indian IQ

My post on Indian IQ (max potential is low to mid 90′s) spawned an interesting analysis by commentator rec1man. It is not very well organized but he does have a ton of useful information that deserves to be highlighted. It’s reprinted in full below interspersed with occasional commentary by myself:

Caste Analysis

75% of the Indian population gets affirmative action quota in India and is genetically low IQ.
25% of the Indian population is upper caste and higher IQ and does not get quota.
Most of the upper caste population has Y-DNA = R1A = Russian / Slavic.

AK: The Slavic max. potential IQ appears to be around 100.

In North India there are 3 levels of quota, each quota level corresponding to a different IQ level:
In North India Upper caste > Other Backward Caste > Dalit – Untouchable – Tribal.

In South India, there are 4 levels of quota:
Brahmin > Dravidian Backward Caste > Dravidian Most Backward caste > Dalit-Untouchable-Tribal.

Upper castes and Brahmins dont get quota. In North India, upper castes and Brahmins are genetically the same of Aryan origin. In South India, the only Aryan origin caste is Brahmin.
The others are Dravidian.

5% of the Indian population is of Oriental race and they dont have a high IQ.

Next vegetarianism = Most upper castes, the higher IQ segment is vegetarian.
The lower castes are non-vegetarian and have lower IQ.

AK: This is interesting. I wonder to what extent (if any) Brahmans can improve their intelligence even further by switching to a meat-based diet? I know that among high-caste Indians adherence to vegetarianism is far from universal. I lived with two of them one. That said, being “non-vegetarian” may not mean that much for most Indians, as most are too poor to regularly afford meat anyway.

Jains are a 100% vegetarian merchant caste and they have beaten the Jews in the diamond trade, even in Tel Aviv.

The world chess champion Vish Anand comes from a vegetarian brahmin family.

AK: As I said, Brahmans appear to be the Jews of India. The most famous Soviet/Russian chess champion, Kasparov, is an Armenian Jew. Actually more than half of the Soviet chess champions were Jews. The most prominent exception was Anatoly Karpov.

In India, a non-vegetarian person is likely a low IQ affirmative action caste
You can check a persons caste rank by simply asking whether they are vegetarian, which implies higher caste

In the Indian Manhattan project team of 18, of which 15 were brahmin and 3 merchants.

AK: Thanks for confirming. :) “(I cannot find the source but I recall reading that almost all members of India’s version of the Manhattan Project were composed of Brahmins).”

Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc

The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97.

In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs.

AK: The mean IQ of Indian immigrants to the US is 112.

Qatar School Rankings

Qatar School Ranking, top 30 schools out of 153

Mean PISA = 500 = IQ 100
SD PISA = 100 = IQ 15

Science, Math, Reading scores

For comparison Shanghai = 575, 600, 566 = 112 IQ

1. Al-Khor Indian Stream, ( GEMS ) = 566, 592, 604 = 113 IQ = Indian Hindu technicians and Engineers of NGL
2. The International School of Choueifat ( SABIS ) = 554, 562, 565 = 109 IQ = Lebanese Xtian
3. Doha College Private ( British Embassy ) = 572, 553, 563 = 109 IQ = UK
4. DPS Modern Indian School ( Delhi Public School Society ) = 552, 538, 563 = 107 IQ = Indian Hindu
5. Qatar Academy ( US educators ) = 540, 547, 562 = 107 IQ
6. American School of Doha, ( US Embassy ) = 553, 546, 559 = 108 IQ
7. Park House English ( UK ) = 568, 528, 552 = 107 IQ
8. Birla Public School = 586, 539, 549 = 108 IQ = Indian Hindu
9. Qatar Intl Private School ( UK ) = 539, 529, 540 = 105 IQ
10. Al Bayan Girls = 481, 464, 516 = Muslim Arab = 98 IQ
11. Cambridge Intl Private School = 531, 484, 514 = 101 IQ
12. Doha Modern Indian School ( Jai Gopal Jindal ) = 554, 525, 514 = 104 IQ = Indian Hindu
13. Al-Khor British Stream ( GEMS ) = 507, 505, 503 = 102 IQ
14. Dukhan English School ( UK ) = 529, 501, 500 = 102 IQ
15. Debakey High School for Health ( USA ) = 492, 467, 493 = 98 IQ
16. Qatar Canadian School = 451, 456, 491 = 95 IQ
17. MES Indian School ( Muslim Education Society ) = 484, 469, 490 = 97 IQ = Indian Muslim
18. Ideal Indian School Girls, ( Muslim ) = 481, 450, 489 = 96 IQ = Indian Muslim
19. Sudanese School = 463, 411, 488 = 93 IQ , remarkably high for black-arab mullatos
20. Al Arqam = 454, 451, 484 = 95 IQ
21. The Gulf English = 468, 448, 482 = 95 IQ
22. Philipine School = 466, 461, 480 = 96 IQ
23. Jordanian School = 446, 422, 472 = 92 IQ
24. Tunisian School = 459, 436, 463 = 93 IQ
25. Lebanese School ( Muslim ) = 444, 501, 463 = 96 IQ
26. Middle East Intl = 484, 452, 461 = 95 IQ
27. Al Andalus = 446, 397, 454 = 90 IQ
28. Ideal Indian School, boys ( Muslim ) = 462, 465, 453 = 94 IQ = Indian Muslim
29. Egyptian School = 463, 435, 434 = 92 IQ
30. American Academy = 462, 434, 434 = 92 IQ

Qatar, 153 school average = 379, 368, 372 = 81 IQ

School -1 and School-13 are both identical, run by GEMS, and solely for children of
employees of NGL

School-1 has Hindu students and School-13 has white students from UK
and the Hindu students are ahead of white students by nearly 1 SD

Indian muslims significantly lag behind Indian Hindus

California performance

In the California 2012 National Merit list, there were 184 Indian winners of which

Brahmin = 112
North Indian Aryan Upper castes = 40
Dravidian Upper castes = 25
Patels ( middle ranking ) = 3
Sikhs ( middle ranking ) = 4

In the US diaspora, Sikhs and Patels despite being 40% of the diaspora, win just 4%.
In the UK, these same Patels and Sikhs are 80% of the Indian diaspora and easily outperform whites academically.

The above data, also shows that sampling has to be very accurate to reflect the various caste IQs.

Future Indian IQ = 93

Calculating Average Indian IQ from PISA

TN raw math PISA score = 351
TN implied IQ = 100 – 1.5 x 15 = 78

HP raw math score = 338
HP implied IQ = 100 – 1.62 x 15 = 76

Indian Avg IQ based on raw PISA = 77

AK: Why only Math, and not also Reading and Science? (including them would bring down average IQ to 75.4).

Next step is to remove the bias caused by the PISA sample having 75% bilingual kids (Tibetan kids facing Hindi PISA exam and Telegu kids facing Tamil PISA exam).

TN mono-lingual = 378
Implied IQ = 500 – 1.22 x 15 = 82

HP mono-lingual = 401
Implied IQ = 500 – 15 = 85

AK: Fair enough – though this adjustment is needed not just in India.

Next there is a 40 point difference between scores for ‘Village’ and scores for ‘Large city’. In HP and TN, the village category is over-represented by a factor of 4. Even worse, in HP, City and Large City are entirely removed from the survey sample.

So adding an urban correction of 20 (half the village-large city difference).

TN semi-urbanised mono-lingual = 378 + 20 = 398
Implied IQ = 85

HP semi-urbanised mono-lingual = 401 + 20 = 421
Implied IQ = 100 – 0.79 x 15 = 88

Current Indian IQ = 86

Next we look to the future as malnutrition is removed. The only Indian kids who go to govt school is for the mid-day meal; if they are not starving they go to private school.

Private schools score 45 more than govt schools and that’s the future as poverty reduces.

AK: Not necessarily as it is richer (on average more cognitively endowed) Indians who are today sending their children to private schools. Disagree with this adjustment.

HP – future – semi-urbanised- mono-lingual = 401 + 20 + 45 = 466

Implied IQ = 95

TN – future – semi-urbanised – mono-lingual = 378 + 20 + 45 = 443

Implied IQ = 91

Future Indian IQ = 93

Given the huge bias in sampling towards over-representing the lower end IQ, by the poverty pimp NGOs, I am certain that none of the CBSE or Cambridge schools
that serve the top 15% are included in the survey.

And they have an entirely different IQ profile and cause an IQ bulge at the top end.

AK: A plausible estimate, with the IQ bulge at the top bringing up average Indian IQ by another point or two. But crucial flaw as far as I can see is the +45 point (+7 IQ points) adjustment, which assumes that the cognitive potential of private and public schoolchildren is essentially equal. That is very unlikely.

Addendum

15% of the Indian population is Muslim, who are also highly inbred, and brainwashed in islamic madrasas, which lowers IQ potential. Another 15% is untouchable and another 10% is tribal.

These 3 groups as a whole have an IQ ceiling , even with nutrition of no more than 85, and these are 40% of the population.

The middle 40%, the Patels and Sikhs, based on UK performance, have an IQ ceiling of about 95.

However, Indians do not have unwed mothers, and Patels and Sikhs are thrifty, have the benefits of extended family and caste networks and save a lot and are a lot richer than whites in UK and Canada and USA.Ori

Averaging the lower 80%, gives an IQ ceiling of 90.

Anything beyond 90 IQ average ceiling, is a bonus and that’s due to the top 20%.

Most PISA type surveys are going to catch the bottom 80%.

The top 20% is extremely urbanised and goes to very good quality private schools. The Orissa TIMMS survey, showed that the 95th percentile was comparable to 95th percentile of Norway and Orissa is a very backward state.

On a system wide level, India is going to behave like 90 IQ ceiling.

On cutting level achievements, the top 20% is extremely world competitive.

Jing’s Counter-argument (8/18)

Orissa’s TIMSS 95% percentile compares favourably to Norway’s because Orissa’s is one of India’s higher scoring states and Norway is oddly enough Europe’s lowest by far. Norway’s 95% percentile was 573 (Orissa’s 577) but this is significantly lower than Bulgaria (611), Serbia (618), and Romania (619). To add some more perspective, neighboring Sweden is 614, Lithuania 628, Estonia 645, and Latvia 625. Russia is at 632, America 635 and England 627. To cap it off Hong Kong is at 691, Japan 697, South Korea 715, Singapore 723, and Taiwan tops the charts at a ridiculous 733.

India’s top 5% would not even make the 50% cutoff in any of the east Asian polities.

All data available here.

Rec1man’s Qatar comparisons are even more irrelevant because he is comparing the absolute HIGHEST ranked schools of high sigma Indian professionals in the country against OECD AVERAGES. Pick out the highest ranked school in Shanghai or the 10th for that matter and compare it against them and you will see just how far the gap is.

The data tables are available online for anyone who cares to delve more deeply into them for the 2009 PISA at the following link.

Selecting the two Indian participating states that (QTN and QHP) with the variable ST19Q01 as the student variable compares how well Indian students did based on the language of the test. Indian students who took the test in a language OTHER than the one spoken at home score higher than the ones who took the test in their native language.

By the way, Richwine’s backward digit span test correlated to a 112 IQ for India’s taken from the GSS survey had a sample size of less than 10 if I recall.

Comments

  1. 15% of the Indian population is muslim, who are also highly inbred, and brainwashed in islamic madrasas, which lowers IQ potential. Another 15% is untouchable and another 10% is tribal

    These 3 groups as a whole have an IQ ceiling , even with nutrition of no more than 85, and these are 40% of the population.

    The middle-40% . the Patels and Sikhs, based on UK performance, have an IQ ceiling of about 95
    However, Indians do not have unwed mothers, and Patels and Sikhs are thrifty, have the benefits of extended family and caste networks and save a lot and are a lot richer than whites in UK and Canada and USA

    Averaging the lower 80%, gives an IQ ceiling of 90.

    Anything beyond 90 IQ average ceiling , is a bonus and thats due to the top 20%.

    Most PISA type surveys are going to catch the bottom 80%

    The top 20% is extremely urbanised and goes to very good quality private schools

    The Orissa TIMMS survey, showed that the 95th percentile was comparable to 95th percentile of Norway and Orissa is a very backward state

    On a system wide level, India is going to behave like 90 IQ ceiling

    On cutting level achievements, the top 20% is extremely world competitive

  2. “On cutting level achievements, the top 20% is extremely world competitive”

    But they are not interested in international math olympiad, aren’t they? Award from such compettion often leads to guaranteed admission of elite schools in other countries.

    • In International Math Olympiad, India performs better than Israel, Norway and many European countries
      But all these people are from the top 20% castes

      http://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

      In 2012, Math olympiad, India was ranked #11

      Korea = #1
      China = #2
      USA = #3
      Russia = #4
      Canada = #5
      Thailand = #5
      Singapore = #7
      Iran = #8
      Vietnam = #9
      Rumania = #10
      India = #11

      At the International Math Olympiad, India outscored every white country except
      USA, Russia, Canada, Iran and Rumania
      The USA and Canada and Thailand and Singapore team actually has Chinese members

      In terms of actual white countries that performed better than India was Iran, Rumania and Russia

      Rumania and Russia have Paternal Y-DNA = R1A, same as upper caste Indians

  3. Just because higher cast Indians have the same Y-DNA as Russians / Slavs doesn’t necessary mean they have the same IQ potential. Those Indians have been living in the subcontinent for quite a long time, so the climate pressures on IQ has had a lot of time to lose its effect. Toss in the fact that some mixing with the locals has taken place over the generations and you have more of a reason to believe that they don’t have the same IQ potential.

    With regards to Indian Muslims being dumber than their Hindu counterparts, going by experience, they seem just as smart/dumb. The ones I have known have been Gujarati, and they are very much as entrepreneurial as the Patels. What they seem to lack are the networks. Nevertheless, aside from religion, they are the same people.

    By the way, I’ve gone to school with many Gujaratis and — boy — do those guys (both Hindus and Muslims) struggle in school.

    With regards to the Jains taking over the diamond industry from the Jews, I can’t see why anyone would be surprised that the Jews would lose their solid grip on the trade. In our globalized world, business goes the way of cheap labor. Indian labor is one of the cheapest out there, which is why these Jains then to focus on the cheap diamonds, while the Jews still have a solid grip on the high-end diamonds and processes (those that require some rather hi-tech technology, which are mostly built in Israel). It also helps that the Jains have a long history with jewellery.

    What’s surprising is that it isn’t the Chinese that are superseding the Jews (maybe they have something in store for the industry). With business such as those dealing with the diamond trade, I think the strongest determining factor of success is having ambition and a close-knit family network. IQ is not as important; I can imagine that the business doesn’t have a steep learning curve, especially in segments dealing with lower-end items.

    AK, what do you think is the average IQ of the top 20% of India’s population?

    • I’d say 105.

      That would be the answer if the bottom 80% castes’ max potential average is 90 and if future Indian IQ = 93 as rec1man argues.

      Anything close to 110 is simply unrealistic because there is no way that there are 200 million Indians who potentially have the same bell curve as the Ashkenazi Jews.

      But I wouldn’t be surprised if the top 5%, i.e. the Brahmans, had a max potential average of about 110.

      • I agree with you , the ceiling for the top 20% is 105, with 5% brahmins at 110

      • So there are more than 200 million Indians with a potential average IQ of 105, around the same as the East Asian countries and higher than all European populations? I find that hard to believe. Why would, say, the warrior cast have an IQ of 105? Just because they eat meat? Just because they are less mixed, even though they are still rather mixed? Even if those factors played a big role, they still wouldn’t explain the large IQ difference (almost 1 std) between them and, say, the Vaishyas. The pressures for a higher IQ just aren’t there and you’d be hard-pressed to find justification for such a discrepancy.

        If the unmixed modern-day Slavs don’t have an IQ ceiling of 105, why would the high cast Indians have such a ceiling? If I were to take a random selection of Russians and put them in the subcontinent for centuries, I wouldn’t expect them to emerge with an IQ notably higher (6 points) than the original population (discounting any genetic drift shenanigans), even if they kept to themselves and remained unmixed.

        If I had to guess, I would estimate the IQ ceiling for each major cast to be as follows:

        Brahmins: 95-100 points
        Kshatriyas: 93 – 95 points
        Vaishyas: 90 – 95 points
        Shudras: 87 – 93 pints

    • The Qatar PISA data I posted shows Indian muslim significantly lag Indian Hindus

      The Gujurati Patels have an IQ ceiling of about 95 and are dumber than regular whites of 100 IQ, but they work harder, and in UK they score higher academically than whites

    • It’s going a bit far to posit much genetic similarity between Slavs and Indians just on the basis of sharing Y-haplogroup R1a. More recent whole genome research models the Indian population as a mixture between Ancient South Indian (ASI) and Ancient North Indian (ANI) ancestry. Higher castes, especially those located in the northwestern part of the subcontinent, do have more ANI ancestry, and ANI has significantly lower Fst in relation to European and Middle Eastern groups than ASI does. Razib at GNXP Discover blogged about the Reich et al. paper that is the basis for this formulation a few years ago:

      http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/09/indians-as-hybrids-a-k-a-aryan-invasion-in-the-house/

    • I disagree.. you have no evidence that mixing with natives declined IQ. environmental affects did not drag down down IQ.. that is a low iq statement. Indians have same IQ potential as Slavs and Iranians… as proven.. you cant prove otherwise.

    • Boeing Employee says:

      “Just because higher cast Indians have the same Y-DNA as Russians / Slavs doesn’t necessary mean they have the same IQ potential. Those Indians have been living in the subcontinent for quite a long time, so the climate pressures on IQ has had a lot of time to lose its effect. Toss in the fact that some mixing with the locals has taken place over the generations and you have more of a reason to believe that they don’t have the same IQ potential.”

      Perhaps the dumbest comment I have ever read, do you have any proof to justify that statement? How does the environment make them dumber? If anything the environment will have made them smarter, Furthermore one simply does not become retarded or lose (IQ) potential by simply living in an environment for a long time. Do you have any evidence that mixing with the natives declined Indian IQ? NO YOU DONT. You have no evidence to assume that the upper castes in India mixed with the natives declining IQ, it could be said that they mixed with the most intelligent native peoples out there, while the bottom portion of society mixed with the lower IQ natives, but in all honesty there is no evidence to sustain that the natives were dumber to begin with, or intermixing caused any decline in IQ.

      One needs to take in to account Iodine deficiency which is rampant in India, which explains why many kids die at early age, the brain just like anything grows to its fullest potential if given proper nourishment, unless you are an idiotic stormfronter who thinks genetics explains everything. The Flynn Effect is probably the biggest worst enemy of you white supremacists, that and the consensus amongst the scientific community that biological development is partially genetic and environmental. Indians have proven themselves to be quite intelligent, superior or on par with whites whenever they migrate to a first world country, (THEY HAVE PROVEN THEMSELVES). In Britain the Lower caste Dalits brought over as indentured servants are already surpassing whites in Britain in terms of success, lower castes Indians seem to be superior to even the average white, and forget about upper caste Indians, they have a higher average IQ which is rivaled by the Jews. Indian low IQ in India is explained by environmental factors,Indians regardless of caste seem to have a legacy of success wherever they go, they either surpass whites, rival whites or are pretty much almost as intelligent as whites, and Indians are a multiracial group of people, so its not an easy subject. Anyone who has worked with Indians knows they are a great asset to any business or venture, many whites on this page have a sense of supremacy which they are untitled to.

      • “Perhaps the dumbest comment I have ever read, do you have any proof to justify that statement? How does the environment make them dumber? If anything the environment will have made them smarter……………..Indian low IQ in India is explained by environmental factors”

        Dumb and dumber? :)

        • Boeing Employee says:

          Wow, you are responding as if you have the high ground in this discussion, than again low IQ redneck trailer trash tend to be ignorant, ignorance correlates with low IQ. I think the problem lies with White racists not wanting to be at the bottom of the barrel, I can take a poor Indian out of India, place him in a first world country, and have him be more successful than your average White in a generation or two, here is a better one, practice polishing shoes, because you will need it to serve your Indian master.

  4. “15% of the Indian population is Muslim, who are also highly inbred, and brainwashed in islamic madrasas, which lowers IQ potential.”-Hahahaaaaaa, that made my day right there! Hard hitting, concise, and funny…there’s a reason why I read this blog…

  5. To suggest the IQ potential of Brahmins is anywhere near 100 is out of sight in my view (let alone other “high casts”), because there is no real life indication to confirm so that could ot be explained away, but many many real-life contradictions instead, for example:

    Brahmins are about 5% of India population and close to 10% in the Uttar Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Rajasthan, Bihar and Orissa. That’s A LOT, perhaps equivalent to the size of Germany. Yet places where Brahmins are numerous (and in utter control historically being the “highest cast) are almost like a pit WTHOUT exception.

    Brahmins cities/regions have never had Soviet-style harsh Communism in place. Say all you want, but the Brits were the world superpower at colonial time when ruled India. At the eve of India’s independence, the Brits left Brahmins with the most advanced and extensive rail networks of entire Asia(or perhaps entire world except the US and incliding war-torn Europe, China and Japan), an educated social economic elites who could speak fluent English – the default language of int’l trade, extensive links with commonwealth world, a fully functional (for the 1st time in history) bureaucracy equipped with English common laws and advanced social structures of independent institutions and media… all the envies of the world at a time, none of these has been touched even slightly by WWI and WWII unlike other places in Asia and Europe. With all these one might imagine that with “100 IQ” ( or “105 IQ” ) elites you’ll get a “Japan” in no time. Yet name ONE city today (there’re plenty in India that are majority Brahmins) that goes slightly beyond 3rd world? What are the excuses? Pleeease. 100 IQers won’t develop those kinds of cities. The holy city of Varanasi, with ” long line of Brahmin priests and gurus”, is a typical example.

    Sorry, but a population led by even 90 IQ social/economic elites won’t get anywhere close to the level that Brahmin cities have displayed, let alone “100 IQ” or “105 IQ” (impossible). Major cities of Mexico(90 IQ?), Malaysia, Thailand, Brazil, for example, ( all led by 100 IQ minority elites?) are a world away from the most advance Brahmin city in India and don’t hold your breath that the huge gap would shrink in the foreseeable future.

    If you put Brahmins at 100 or plus average IQ, where you put Iranian? Thais? must be 120 plus average IQ perhaps?

    Who are Brahmins genetically? Where they were from? Some elites / royals from Persia historically? Can any majority Brahmin city surpass the prosperity of high 80 IQ Teheran in the future? ever?

    Tamil Nadu is a Brahmin region. But where are the smart ones shown in PISA 2009?

    India is historically nobody in IMO. 2012 is the only exception. Anyway, with a population the size of Germany, Brahmins could EASILY chunk out many 100+ IQer even with mid or high 80s average IQ ( which I suspect is the case due to Persia/Iran comparison) to play with, particularly when they as the “highest cast” control all the best goodies in India by default, thus suffer no discrimination whatsoever unlike for example Han Chinese in SE Asia. From this angle one can argue ligitly that perhaps for Brahmins, the Flynn effect points are very limited already , the minimum compared with other discriminated “castes” in India.

    So a US/Canada immigration filter of 1/1000 (among many or majority Brahmins applicants already) could get some 100+ IQers, big deal?

    • I agree (see my comment above). Plus, how many IQ tests have been done on these Indian immigrants? I recall one IQ test claiming that African immigrants had an IQ of 112 or so. As a West African immigrant, I found that hard to believe.

      I have known many Indians from all grades and a very high IQ is not what jumps out at me. They are very tenacious, though.

      • Agreed.

        So many 100+ or 110+ or 120+ IQ Brahmins become analysits, or profeesors , or researchers in the US? I don’t find it’s weird. Normal. But to suggest that their average IQ is anywhere near to those is delusional IMO.

        I guess perhaps the more straight forward ways to refute some wild guesses/claims are things like:

        * how could it possible that “100 or 100+ IQers” (in their multi millions) be so easily colonised, entirely, by 150,000 or so 100 IQ Brits for 300+ years? Could be due to some years of civil wars? Communism? For some years perhaps, but 300 years, and in its entirety?

        And because they are vegetarians? C’mon.

        * Even more interesting, perhaps British Raj, governed by 150,000 100 IQ Brits was much more advanced and prosperous as a whole , relatively speaking to its peers at a time, than today’s India governed by 50/60/80 millions (?) 100 or 105, or 120 IQ Brahmins!

        Think about that.

        * Brahmins have population about the size of 100+ IQ Germany, or 100 IQ Britain, or 100 IQFrance, yes? If their average IQ were anywhere near 100 or even mid 90s (Spain?), try to imagine what 1980’s India (fully independent in 1947) would have looked like?

        Yes, it would have looked like a superpower easily on par with the Soviet, giving the US a run for its money. It would have been technologically as (almost) advanced as Germany or France or Socialist Sweden ( some Indians blame it on their mild Socialism at a time– yes, the similar mild Sweden style Socialism). On per cap basis, the GDP of this 1980’s India would have been perhaps 10 folds as what is now…

        BECAUSE it would have been the same case as if to have transplanted entire German (or 100 IQ British or French) population to India in 1947, giving them the absolute leading roles in all political-social-economical spheres and assuming they speak fluent English mostly – just as Brahmins have been in India. All these could have been almost equally achieved even though prohibiting these Germans (or Brits/French) eating sausages since 1947 !

        So under such a hypothesis we should have had a technological and industrial superpower India as early as about 1980s, an “enlarged Germany”, or an “enlarged Britain” with 50 million Brits building India instead of 150,000 in British Raj? No?

        At least we should have found some signs of superpower in such “India”?

        Or at least a “Switzerland”?

        Or at least a tiny prosperous “100 IQ Brahmin town” as advanced as “Luxemburg”? Or “Little Paris , Little Frankfurt”?

        A “Little Madrid” of 95 IQ, perhaps?

        Or even tiny “Malaga” or “Maastricht”, no?

        Nada, Zilch. Instead the best we could manage to find is Slumdog-Millionaire-type as most advanced financial capital.

        Is that simple?

        Sorry to say so, but I’d really be struggling to understand what kind of stand-up skills it would take to explain all above away.

        • But these higher IQ brahmins are living with low IQ people who are liability.then affirmative actions and draining out of resources for the same..they are just five percent of the population..ur logic is flawed..if they had their own territory they would have developed Germany without any doubt.

        • Boeing Employee says:

          “At least we should have found some signs of superpower in such “India”?

          Or at least a “Switzerland”?

          Or at least a tiny prosperous “100 IQ Brahmin town” as advanced as “Luxemburg”? Or “Little Paris , Little Frankfurt”?

          A “Little Madrid” of 95 IQ, perhaps?

          Or even tiny “Malaga” or “Maastricht”, no?

          Nada, Zilch. Instead the best we could manage to find is Slumdog-Millionaire-type as most advanced financial capital.

          Is that simple?”

          India is still a poor country, with too many people living there, despite many groups with high IQ’s, there is more to developing a society than simply IQ, and obviously the future will be quite different, since society develops from scratch, than rises up. There is little money or infrastructure for the higher IQ Indians to do anything, it will take time for India to develop to the levels of lets say Europe or America, it takes time, especially with a population with over a billion people, especially with little money or a destroyed society drained of its resources by the British. As the environment becomes better, the lower portion of society will have an increase in IQ, allowing the upper IQ caste to work better and fix the society, there are environmental and historical reasons why India is what it is, you dont need stand up skills to debunk this simple minded comment you just made, I would suggest you think your answers through a little more, than again this is the internet so anyone can say whatever delusional bullshit they want.

      • Boeing Employee says:

        “I agree (see my comment above). Plus, how many IQ tests have been done on these Indian immigrants? I recall one IQ test claiming that African immigrants had an IQ of 112 or so. As a West African immigrant, I found that hard to believe.

        I have known many Indians from all grades and a very high IQ is not what jumps out at me. They are very tenacious, though.”

        Are you that brain dead? They have the highest IQ anywhere they go, sometimes even surpassing the Chinese! They have the highest income, they are overrepresented in academic fields, besides sports LOL, they are dominant in academic fields, to assume their IQ is not 112 is ridiculous. I guess you are forgetting that India has levels of malnourishment and iodine (goiter) deficiencies that rival Sub Sahara Africa, which (explains their LOW IQ).

    • Being a communist colony was bad but it was better than being a British colony (or any other colony for that matter)

    • “Brahmins are about 5% of India population and close to 10% in the Uttar Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Rajasthan, Bihar and Orissa. That’s A LOT, perhaps equivalent to the size of Germany. Yet places where Brahmins are numerous (and in utter control historically being the “highest cast) are almost like a pit WTHOUT exception.”

      True, and that makes all these fantasies of 110 IQ average for brahmins untenable.

  6. As I’m at it, another thing, using (International) Chess and Nobel Science as many frequently and automatically do, is fine, fine and more fine to make a point of high intelligence, yet is wrong, wrong and ridiculously wrong (!) to rank intelligence amongst the high intelligence:

    * 105 IQ East Asian elites by and large don’t play lightweight Chess, but “Wei Qi” (Go) instead. The difference amongst the two is, let’s say quite something. (Chinese)Chess, along with its international variants, is for the mass.

    * Nobel Prize Science discriminates the ones who don’t speak any major European language as the mother tone; it discriminates the ones who are not within the tiny well-woven and connected networks of universities and labs; it discriminates the ones who historically don’t have enough funding or led by int’l renounced tutors/recommenders (a self-fulfilling cycle can’t you see?); It contains heavy selection bias and time gap bias, some even politically motivated, yes, even in Science. It penalises heavily under-developed economies (mainly due to Communism, and war/s). It penalises East Asia one way or another more so than others. But it even penalises European whites actually. If not? food for thought —

    what is Ashkennazi Jews world wide population? 6mio? 10mio? With 113 (alleged) IQ how many 150+ IQ it has in total mathematically (assuming the most optimistic variance) who could have a shot at Nobel Science? Then compared to 1.5 Billion plus East Asians (105 IQ?) and more or less the same amount of ethnic European whites (100 IQ). How many of them have 150 or 160 + IQ (assuming the most pessimistic variance) that could afford a legit and better shot at Nobel Science? Now compare those figures with the corresponding Nobel Science ( or math, science, engineering depts of major Unis, or this that Awards, fortune list, etc) each group has. The discrepancies displayed shows logically, with certain accuracy, how screwed the Nobel Science (and other “legit Awards”) was, is and could be in RANKING, or more ridiculously PROVING as people usually do, among higher IQers .

    • Funding is much more important than anything else. Science is simply not cheap. That is why Mali has no noble prices.

    • ironrailsironweights says:

      Another complication with using chess as a proxy for intelligence is the fact that it’s a very popular diversion in American prisons.

  7. ironrailsironweights says:

    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana

    Which may explain why the Indo-Guyanese (and the smaller number of Indo-Trinidadians) in New York seem to underperform the area’s straight-from-India Indians by quite a margin. As I understand it, they have a relatively high crime rate, though it gets little attention because it’s mainly intra-community crime rather than predatory street crime, and their educational and occupational levels aren’t that good.

    One troubled group whose woes puzzle me are the Sikhs of Vancouver. Their crime and social-pathology rate is disturbingly high, but I.Q. doesn’t seem to explain it.

    • You would expect that Indo-Guyans have the same background as Indo-Suris.

    • OK, I know some Indo-Guyanese and Indo-Trinis in NYC. A mean IQ of 85-90 for them wouldn’t surprise me. I’ve never heard of any violent crime among them, however. Tax evasion, nepotism-based corruption seem like a given, but violent crime? I’d guess it to be around the Chinese level, i.e. almost non-existent. Same for illegitimacy. They’re disciplined, clannish, hardworking, family-oriented, unsophisticated, quiet. Why would an “unsophisticated” population be crime-free? Because of a very low level of machismo. I wonder if anybody’s ever tested Indians for testosterone.

      I know that Sikhs are one of the few traditionally martial (i.e. relatively macho) groups in India. That could make violent crime a possibility, though I haven’t heard of any Sikh criminals here in NY.

  8. Anatoly, I’m a little disappointed that you are willing to take Rec1man seriously. Most of his rambling copy&paste posts across a random assortment of blogs are either unsourced gibberish pulled from his arse (the demographic breakdown of Indian populations), deliberate misrepresentations (India TIMSS comparison and Qatar school rankings), or outright lies (multilingualism and PISA)

    Orissa’s TIMSS 95% percentile compares favourably to Norway’s because Orissa’s is one of India’s higher scoring states and Norway is oddly enough Europe’s lowest by far. Norway’s 95% percentile was 573 (Orissa’s 577) but this is significantly lower than Bulgaria (611), Serbia (618), and Romania (619). To add some more perspective, neighboring Sweden is 614, Lithuania 628, Estonia 645, and Latvia 625. Russia is at 632, America 635 and England 627. To cap it off Hong Kong is at 691, Japan 697, South Korea 715, Singapore 723, and Taiwan tops the charts at a ridiculous 733.

    India’s top 5% would not even make the 50% cutoff in any of the east Asian polities.

    All data available here.

    http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~tzajonc/india_shining_jan27_flat.pdf

    Rec1man’s Qatar comparisons are even more irrelevant because he is comparing the absolute HIGHEST ranked schools of high sigma Indian professionals in the country against OECD AVERAGES. Pick out the highest ranked school in Shanghai or the 10th for that matter and compare it against them and you will see just how far the gap is.

    The data tables are available online for anyone who cares to delve more deeply into them for the 2009 PISA at the following link.

    http://pisa2009.acer.edu.au/interactive_results.php

    Selecting the two Indian participating states that (QTN and QHP) with the variable ST19Q01 as the student variable compares how well Indian students did based on the language of the test. Indian students who took the test in a language OTHER than the one spoken at home score higher than the ones who took the test in their native language.

    By the way, Richwine’s backward digit span test correlated to a 112 IQ for India’s taken from the GSS survey had a sample size of less than 10 if I recall.

    A much more useful method of evaluation is available here.

    http://star.cde.ca.gov/star2011/SearchPanel.aspx

    The state of California performs standardized testing on ALL students in a variety of subjects from grades 2 to 11. It has test scores for virtually every major ethnic group in California and America at large in every mandatory school subject, including the 58,215 Indian students between the ages of 7 and 17 in California as of last year. Have fun.

    • Above URL

      State of California, 7th grade English / 7th grade Math

      White = 384 / 375
      Black = 340 / 328
      Asian Indian = 406 / 410

      Palo Alto ( elite school )
      White = 421 / 435
      Black = 338 / 332
      Asian Indian = 449 / 494

    • Thank you for the info Jing, I will look into it.

      As I am not an expert in this stuff, I appreciate both rec1man’s and your input (which has been published as a second addendum).

      I will examine your data more closely as soon as I get some time.

    • “Orissa’s TIMSS 95% percentile compares favourably to Norway’s because Orissa’s is one of India’s higher scoring states and Norway is oddly enough Europe’s lowest by far”

      Scandinavian lands such as Norway and Sweden are the champs of multicultural paradise in Europe, making the govts of the UK, France AND the North America look like “far-right anti-immigration bigots”. lol.

      From almost 100% indigenous people in Norway not long ago you get now about 80% indigenous after massive influx of Muslim Norwegians, Hindu Norwegians in recent years on top of Somali Norwegians, making its total population fastly approaching 5 mio, the illegals aside. Going to Oslo downtown in a public holiday these days, sometimes it’s like walking into a Little Mumbai via time machine with the backdrop of Norwegian architectures. Odd that its TIMSS starts to resemble that of the Indian subcontinent? I say that they should get 500,000 more Hindu Norwegians of the magic “105 or 120 IQ Brahmins” type in order to “catch up” Bulgaria and Romania, yes? lol.

  9. AK, most of what can be said can be said in 3 sentences (your broad assertion seems the most probable explanation). you, nor some of your less intelligent readers (they don’t know how dumb they are compared to you ;-), really do not have enough granular information to decompose the ethnography of india with any utility. i struggle with it myself, and i know about two order of magnitudes more than you in this area probably.

    genetics is easier, just read harappa. inter-caste Fst is lowest in the northwest, highest in the south.

    • Razib, sorting through this enormously confusing mass of information, can you clarify which broad assertion (there were several) of AK’s seems the most probable to you?

  10. Have been to India as tourist. One thing impressed me is their confidence about their ability. They never say “no”. If you ask a cab driver `do you speak English?’ or “Do you know this address?”, they always give you a very confident `yes’ even though most of them do not. You often ended up at wasting a lot of time. This kind of attitude applies alomst every thing in India. Very nice people though.

    Just beware of `shaggy assertion’ as Razib presented when you dealing with them.
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/05/the-shaggy-assertion-just-pretend-youre-right/

    • I went to school with a whole lot of them, and it’s the same experience. They always say “yes”, and to go along with them often means finding out later that you’ve made a big mistake.

      They are confident in the way they carry themselves, which is very beneficial in the ultra-competitive job market. I think this “undeserved” confidence is a key factor, but not the only factor, in their success outside of India.

  11. WOW, this means that Chinese are indeed a far superior race to the Indians.

    If the top 5% of the Indians have IQ of 110, then the top 5% Chinese would have IQ of 135 !
    If the top 20% of the Indians have IQ of 93, then the top 20% Chinese would have IQ of 118 !
    The average Indian with IQ maxed out at 85, while the Chinese will be at a 105 !

    WOW, is there anything that can stop the Chinese from dominating the world?

  12. Ambiguous says:

    How about some REAL data on those poor South Asian Muslims in the UK.

    https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/glassessment.pdf

    I can’t believe the near complete lack of interest in this. It’s got data on every UK ethnic group, as well as other grouping based on thousands of pupils.

    Btw note how Irish Travellers score just as low as Roma. Obviously the low score of Irish Travellers is due to environmental factors while that of Roma is probably genetic. ;)

  13. namae nanka says:

    There are brahmins who don’t eat meat, but by and large they are strict vegetarians, even to the point of not using onion or garlic. Kshatriyas are meat eaters, so are muslims. Though most of the muslims in India seem to be converted lower caste hindus.
    Quotas are a big problem in India, seats are reserved for lower castes in elite insitutions such as IITs and IIMs.

    “Based on the results of IIT-JEE, those SC/ST candidates that qualify by a relaxed selection criteria of scoring more than about half of the marks scored by the last General Category student are admitted directly to IITs[1]. (In 2008, the ratio was 58% which further reduced to 50.2% in 2011).”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_policy_in_Indian_Institutes_of_Technology

    “Given the huge bias in sampling towards over-representing the lower end IQ, by the poverty pimp NGOs”

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-10-01/edit-page/30230007_1_underweight-children-maternal-mortality-mortality-rate

  14. The Economist this week has an article which directly refutes the claim by Recman that the Indian Brahman has an IQ of anything close to 120. It also points to the future of the Indian IQ elites.

    The parsis of Mumbai is a tiny group of people originally from Iran. They moved to India to maintain their religion when the Muslims came. The Parsis are indeed similar to the Jews in two ways that the Brahmans are not.

    1. They were indeed persecuted by the majority in ways the Brahmans never were. The Brahmans have always been a privileged class while the Parsis were a tiny minority in a foreign land.
    2. Unlike the Brahmans, you can find amazing achievements from this tiny group of people where ever they went. Eddy Mercury was a Parsi. As was the founder of Tata. You can google this your self to find what their accomplishments have been.

    Their IQ was estimated to be about 120, higher the the Jews. Problem was, their numbers are tiny. In the 1950′s, when the Indian population was about 360 Million, their numbers were fewer than 120,000. their achievements, in both India and abroad, were wildly out of proportion to their actual numbers.Even if you compared them to the Brahmans. The Brahmans easily out number them 15:1 in 1950.

    Sadly, due to low fertility and to a smaller extent emigration, today they number 60,000 in India with mostly older folks. while the population of India is triple what it was in 1950.

  15. Again some stupid statistics by some stupid people.

    Historically the Bengal circle has produced best Physicist.inventor,literary ,Economist from entire Asia.

    Bengali elite class Hindu,Few Muslims and some Christian missionaries have led in this part of the world in various field.

    Invention:JC Bose-the inventor of wireless communication(Well IEEE is felicitating him on Sept 15 at his native home Kolkata with a plaque which makes Kolkata the 3rd city in Asia to recieve such honor.)He was truly a great polymath who also showed experimentally that plant has similar system just like human being.

    The current test tube baby method(IVF) was also made by Bengali Subhas Mukhopadhya in 1978 but his tragic death certainly cost him the 2010 Nobel prize which went to Cambridge Physician Robert Edwards.

    Amar Gopal Bose-speaker

    Jawed Karim-Architect of pay pal and co founder of you tube and already have won one invention of the year award.

    Engineering:Fazlur Rahman Khan of Bangladesh-the greatest structural Engineer of 20th century.

    Physicist:one of all time great and one of the father of quantum(specifically quantum statistics) and his work has already brought 10 Nobel prize winners among which Bose-Einstein condensate is one of the greatest discovery of all time.Even god particle is also one type of boson.there are other names from this region but I will discuss only the best names from Calcutta/Bengal.

    economics-Asia’s only Economist Nobel laureate Amartya Sen and Also legendary Micro credit pioneer Muhammad Yunus of Bangladesh.

    literature:First non European literature Nobel laureate Rabindranath Tagore(also the composer of 3 national anthems) and another great polymath.There are many others including several Booker or Pulitzer winners such as Ray,Jhumpa Lahiri etc.

    Religion and peace:Swami vivekananda was a Bengali mystic who established Hinduism as aworld religion at parliament of world religion in 1893.And there is Mother Teresa known for her charity work all over the world.

    In music and art:There are 17 Bengali Grammy award winners such as Ravishankar(who had a great impact on George Harrison/Beatles) and his daughter Nora Jones Shankar etc.in movie there is Satyajit Ray,one of the 10 greatest director in film History whose 5/6 movies feature in top 100 list of many magazines.

    Math and other field:Mount Everest height was calculated by Bengali Radhanath Sikdar in 1852 using spherical trigonometry.Recently a Bengali boy named Sourya Ray solved two critical puzzles set by Sir Issac Newton 350 years ago.The inaugural yuri Milner prize ,the hihest prize in world of science today was won by Bengali Physicist Ashoke Sen working in India.

    So in my opinion the Brahmins of Bengal have Highest IQ with average between 110-115 whle few other upper caste have Bengali have IQ just above 100(but these are only 15-20% of total Bengali Hindu population but Muslim will have IQ somewhere around 80-85 in Bengal.

    • “So in my opinion the Brahmins of Bengal have Highest IQ with average between 110-115″

      And that explains why Bengal is synonymous with abject poverty and horrifying living conditions?

      Very funny how brahmins keep pulling such flattering numbers out of their arses…..and very telling how HBD bloggers keep buying their BS. ;)

      • Boeing Employee says:

        Funny how white racists tend to think IQ automatically correlates with living conditions, must be their low IQ, since they are low income, jealous idiots afraid of non-white success, intelligent people can only do so much with so little, environmental factors contribute to a society, it is not just genetic input, unless you can prove to me that Indians are just stupid despite their history and their suffering with the British which drained their economy, I would suggest shutting your trap and moving on. If only the Brits did not overtake India, India wouldnt have this problem.

      • Idiot,no Bengali Brahmins live in abject poverty-the par capita of income of Brahmin have 3 times more than other community…but it’s not Brahmin but other upper caste Bengali are also living quite well…It’s the Muslim Bengali and some tribal population from Hindu community who are living under poverty…But don’t worry…if the oil source is gone,them all those rich Arab Muslim camels and goats will have to beg on others doors just like the Porkistani or Bangladeshi people.

        The literacy of Bengali Brahmin are highest in India-99.23%(2011) statistics and in Kolkata,the capital of Indian Bengal have literacy above 95% (excluding Muslim) but the Anglo Indian or Christian Bengali have also very high literacy in Kolkata.

        In USA With less than 5000 population 2 Bengali Brahmin have won Pilitzer prize including one of the youngest ever Jhumpa Lahiri.

  16. By the one more anecdote:Kolkata,the capital of Bengal has first Nobel prize working in Asia in 4 different categories(excluding peace and chemistry) and worlds oldest civilization was also discovered by Bengali Rakhaldas Banerjee.Why India or China can not produce these type of luminaries working in their home?Strange,isn’t it!

  17. India sends the most contestants to Google Code Jam and performs miserably. It is outperformed regularly in the Math Olympiad by countries like Iran and Vietnam. India is dirt poor and the poorest states in India are the ones with the most brahmins.

    I think all this conjecture about brahmins having high IQs is kinda laughable.

    • Boeing Employee says:

      Coming from a white anti-Indian piece of shit, poverty levels in India can be explained by environmental factors, one does not magically have a high IQ and all of a sudden their society grows to be an advanced civilization, there are too many people in India, it is not as simple as that, it takes time, and funding, a society as large as India will take time to grow, the average income in growing, with this Indians will better themselves. Due to the Brahmans high average IQ, India will grow to be a prosperous society in the future, as they were in the past, and no redneck trailer trash hick is going to change that, there is a correlation in these types of threads, those that hate India seemed to suffer from ADD or cognitive deficiencies.

      • This idiot is not white,but an Arab guy probably-I have read his comments in Indian Chinese Iq puzzle where it was bashing Brahmin ,Hindu and later Bengali but one of the Bengali in that blog completely destroyed him-read the post made by Observer in that blog.

    • Well 3 out of 6 IMO contestant from India were Bengali from West Bengal and two consecutive years they have won gold medals,3 silver,one Bronze.

  18. ” Most of the upper caste population has Y-DNA = R1A = Russian / Slavic ”
    Actually it is completely opposite. It is only the untouchables, the lowest of the lowest who are of purely slavic stock. R1a is exclusive to them. Upper castes have defining marker J2 etc which are absent in them.

    The lower castes are of buddhist origin. In ancinet times huge invasions from present day Russia by Scythians for the protection of Buddhism happened. Their decendents became untouchables as Brahmins refused to accept any gift/food etc from them. One of the invader king’s name was even Dimitt (Pali for Dmitry, a very popular Russian name)

  19. Further there is an inverse relationship between percentage of Brahmins and prosperity of the state. States like Maharstara, Punjab, Haryana, with 1-2% brahmins do very well while those with 10-15% brahmins population such as Uttar Pradesh and Bihar are worse than sub-sharan africa. The southern state of Tamilnadu was extremely poor but there was an anti brahmin revolution leading to an exodus of Brahmins which caused brahmin population to decline from 15% to 4% and the fortunes of the state improved so much that it is one the leading states in India in science and technology

  20. Higgs boson says:

    Well Sambit has already said lot but he has not mentioned that apart from Kolkata which is the capital of Bengal province,no Indian city so far has produced any Nobel prize worthy work.# Indian have won with American citizenship working in those countries.That probably explains why Indian are so dumb with IQ around 82,but Bengali Hindu and Anglo Indian community in Bengal have Iq somewhere around 95 with S.D of very few points.From the day of Bengal Renaissance this land has produced countless intellectuals and will continue…but rest of the India will not produce any Nobel worth work not even in this century(I would venture a guess).I am an Anglo Indian living in Kolkata but the region is spoiled by 30% Muslim and another 20-25% non Bengali Hindu people from India.Famous Bengali writer Nirad.C.Chaudhuri wrote all these things in his book Autobiography of an unknown Indian and he was banished from India.

  21. koi nahi hai says:

    Regarding Indian IQ, it has now become almost cliche to read stuff like ‘ Brahmins have lot of white blood’, ‘Brahmins are a high IQ group, an upper layer which is closest to Europeans’. Such uninformed opinions occur in European/Western blogs and literature are without any basis.
    1. Brahmins are largest caste in India at 7-10% of Indian population (i.e. 84-120 millions). Such a huge group, if it had Asheknazi IQ ~120, they would have solved the problems of third world such as illiteracy, povery, AIDS etc,.indeed of humanity. Just imagine 100 million people with average IQ of 120, 15 million would be ~135 IQ. In sheer numbers they are between size of Germany to Japan (lower of upper estimates).
    2. They are shorter and darker than locals in most states in North india. Kashmiri brahmins are shorter and darker than Muslims. In Punjab/Haryana/Rajasthan/HP/Delhi, they are noticeably shorter and darker than Jats and even pariahs (lowest castes).
    3. Finally, if they have high IQ where are the achievements.
    4. My assessmeent of Indian IQ on average, though I dont have any sources would be: North (including Eastern) Indian Peasants/farmers -85-100, Urban Businessmen – 90-100, South Indian Brahmins – 90-100, Untouchables – 80-95, North Indian Brahmins 75-90, Muslims 75-85, south indian peasants 85-95. There is great scope in improvement of above groups with reduction in malnutrition and access to education but the potential still doesn’t exceed the white race average of 100, though it may be equalled.

  22. I have a slightly different take on this.

    For a society’s advancement what we need to look at is not average IQ, where 95-105 doesn’t seem to make much obvious difference in an average individual’s contribution to the collective.

    If we compare HDI vs IQ average of OECD countries there doesn’t seem to be a obvious corellation. Italians apparently have higher IQ’s than Germans etc. Also there seems to be a stronger correlation between liguistic types and IQ Finland,Estonia etc which speak Uralic languages apparently have higher IQ’s than most Europeans which speak Indo European languages.

    What is important is the IQ of the top 1% of the society and especially the top 0.1 % which produces the geniuses which take civilization forward.This is probably where the Europeans score over the East Asians.

    This is of course purely conjecture partly because I am not aware of standardized IQ tests ability to assess the top 0.1 % of the population effectively.

  23. scythian says:

    Just a few things:

    It is true that that cities in India are nowhere near as functional and advanced as those in Europe or the West, but I have travelled in the North Indian countryside. Villages with a high Brahmin population is (percentage wise) tend to be better kept and better looking. I once went to a village in Saharanpur, in Northern India, where nearly all the inhabitants were Tyagi Brahmins, a subcaste of Brahmins who have taken to agriculture and have become relatively prosperous. The houses were well built, the lanes were clean and there was a lot of greenery. So you do have Brahmin dominated areas , which are quite well tended,. Similiarly in South India, one has Brahmin villages known as Agraharam, where the houses are well built, and the streets are well planned. These are not cities though, just villages and settlements, but they are by all standards genteel..

    Simla is a town where more than thirty percent of the population are Brahmins , and it is quite pleasant, even though a bit overcrowded.

    Bombay was never built by Brahmins, and was never really governed by Brahmins . Most of the slums in India are populated by Dalits and Lower Class Muslims.so the Slumdog Millionare example does not stick.

    The point is this. In both rural India, and in cities, Brahmins, along with the Merchant Castes, and Landowning Dominant Castes such as Jats, Gujjars, Rajputs and Ahirs in Northern India, and Nairs and Gowdas in Southern India whenever they can live a segregated life from the 75% of the population who dod not belong to these categories. That is perhaps why villages in India where the Brahmin population is low have decrepit look. Even in the Gangetic plain, which i extremely backward, , the ten per cent Brahmin minority are relatively well off an often lead a segregated life. And Uttar Pradesh has been ruled and dominated by Chief Misiter from the Backward Castes and Dalits.
    Brahmins from this state who leave often occupy highly skilled white collar positions in both the public and private sector.

    As for cities, there is not a single Urban area where Brahmins have ever been the majority. Villages yes, , and few I have seen are as I said better built, but Bombay does not ahve a Brahmin majority. Varanasi also does not have a Brahmin majority. Doms and Muslim make up a far larger percentage of the population. Brahmins there live in their segregated neighbourhood, though I d not how those neighbourhoods look like.

    Also in terms of the Brahmin population, it is quite hard to guess, what the actual population is, as no census has been done, and it may not same ratio to the whole Indian population today as it was in in 1931(when the last caste census was taken), as different castes grow at different rates. I would hazard that the Brahmin population growth would be lower. In fact I read somewhere that a certain Brahmin sub caste or tribe, the Chitrapur Saraswat Brahmins have a population that is only 21,000, and is rapidly declining, in similiar fashion to the Parsis. the reason why data existed for this community is because they have their own community organisation which collects it. Like the Parsis, they are well educated and quite affluent. I would suppose that such demographic characteristics would apply to groups such as the Bengali Brahmin and Tamil Brahmin.

    • Obamahdi says:

      You’ve precisely explained why caste segregation is so important to higher caste hindus. Low castes and dalits are a source of pollution,spiritually,physically and biologically.

  24. The whole thread is pretty racist.For their population, Tamil Brahmin have more Nobel Laureates than most other ethnic groups including Jews. Achievements also reflect the social, political and economic scenario of the country, which in Inda has been depresed for the last 1000 years. Brahmins/ Upper caste Hindus can beat any Russian, Slav, European or Chinese hollow which is why you see so many Indian Fortune 1000 CEO’s despite all pervasive racism and jealousy form all other ethnic groups including Chinese and WHites. The difference is that I can take on any Chinese/ European in both IQ and am ahead on social/EQ skills also.

  25. This guy Anatoly Carlin and the commentators here are very racist. It has been proven that IQ just like any thing in nature follows a normal distribution. And this normal distribution in itself is a rule which is followed everywhere in nature. This means that all human populations regard less of where they live should follow the same normal distribution IQ range. This is because biologically we are still homo sapiens. If an Egyptian jumps in a time machine and pops up in present day NYC, after a few weeks or months of education, he will act as a normal rational human being in the so called modern society. Trying to measure IQ of countries the size of India or China is an exercise in futility. The sample will never be random enough to give accurate results. Also IQ alone does not determine the success or failures of societies. India has had it’s golden age and periods of declines. Growth or progress is never linear in nature but cyclic.

    Read this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#Validity_of_race_and_IQ

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