The Puzzle Of Indian IQ: A Country Of Gypsies And Jews

The question of Indian IQ is a big puzzle. Far trickier than China’s IQ which I think I’ve basically figured out (101-102 today; 106-108 genetic ceiling).

The PISA-adjusted IQ of India – as extrapolated from the states of Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, which are relatively rich and are reputed to have good school systems by Indian standards – is a miserly 75.4; Richard Lynn, in his latest estimates based on an international standardized test from 1970 and a more recent TIMSS study in the states of Rajasthan and Orissa is 82.2. The chart above compiled by Steve Sailer from Lynn’s data on numerous IQ tests also indicates it is the low 80’s. In my opinion the low 80’s figures given by the IQ tests is more accurately reflective of today’s Indian g because PISA is after all an academic test and Indian schools leave a lot to be desired.

Regardless, the differences between Indians, and East Asians and Europeans, are huge. India is in fact at the upper level of sub-Saharan African IQ which typically ranges from 65 to 80. There are lots of factors holding India back: Malnutrition (which is on average perhaps worse than in sub-Saharan Africa), vegetarian diets, poor education system, a moderately high rate of consanguineous marriage. But all that said the sheer size of the gap makes me skeptical that all of it is down to environmental factors alone.

On the other hand the average IQ of Indian immigrants to the US is an Ashkenazi Jewish-like 112. Ramanujan was assessed by G.H. Hardy, no lightweight himself, as the most gifted mathematician of his age. Going back further in time, India has a pretty stunning religious, linguistic, mathematical, and philosophical heritage. Only a continuous stream of very high IQ individuals could have both created and sustained such a heritage.

Another very telling feature of India is the pervasive inequality that has characterized it throughout time. Kenneth Pomeranz notes in his book The Great Divergence on why it was Europe and not China that underwent the Industrial Revolution that Early Modern India had levels of inequality significantly in excess of that of either China or Western Europe. Consider that (1) redistributive wealth mechanisms were virtually non-existent then, (2) that India unlike China or Europe nonetheless still had a lot of unused resources which typically puts a damper on inequality; (3) the always relevant correlation between wealth and IQ. All this implies an “IQ Gini index” considerably greater than in either Europe or China even in the pre-industrial past. And according to Sailer, even today whereas “China focuses on giving the masses a solid basic education that prepares them for manufacturing jobs” India on the other hand “focuses more on giving outstanding university educations to the meritocratic elite.”

Finally, we also know that India remains a heavily caste based society, despite very vigorous government attempts to legislate it away. They don’t tend to intermarry. They eat different foods. And they do appear to differ markedly in IQ. Brahmins occupy a lot of the intellectually demanding positions (I cannot find the source but I recall reading that almost all members of India’s version of the Manhattan Project were composed of Brahmins). A lot of the (super high IQ) US Indian immigrants appear to be Brahmins. Meanwhile Indian immigrants to Britain or those who live as diasporas in sub-Saharan Africans tend to under-perform Anglo whites by about 0.5 S.D. These are the “Patels”, etc were talking about who are mostly Vaishya or Shudra and who constitute the vast bulk of India’s population. If they are typically scoring in the low 90’s and India’s average is in the low 80’s then *that* difference can plausibly be ascribed to the Flynn Effect.

So let’s do the power summary for India:

  • Many cultural achievements (philosophy, religion, literature) that up until the Early Modern period compared respectable with those of European, Near Eastern, and East Asian civilization, but were much less prevalent in sub-Saharan Africa.
  • Levels of inequality in Early Modern times that were higher than in Western Europe, China, or Japan even though on objective factors (e.g. lower levels of land stress) should have been lower.
  • The caste-based nature of traditional Indian society that the government has been powerless to stamp out.

What I conclude from this is that in terms that would be familiar to Westerners: India is a nation of Gypsies and Jews.

Over the centuries, Brahmins have been selected for intelligence. They were expected to master requisite texts and those who couldn’t handle it dropped away. These selective pressures did not apply to the lower castes who made up the vast majority of the population.

The reason for why India split along caste lines was because of Hinduism and its origins as a religion/ideology to hold society together under the boots of the conquering light-skinned Aryans who brought down the original Harappan civilization (indeed 4 millennia on Bollywood still glamorizes lighter-skinned actors and this is not very controversial within Indian society). These invaders became the Kshatriya military caste, and the Brahmins became their spiritual apologists and enablers. (The Kshatriya were also the one major caste that was allowed to eat meat to build up muscles. Quite logical). The darker skinned aborigines had to continue tilling the soil for their new masters.

Christianity.proclaimed the spiritual inequality of all men. In fact it was a very special religion in that it took a very strict line against within-kin marriages in general. Hence why a caste society or anything resembling it is pretty much impossible under Christianity as long as everyone is considered a fellow Christian. (Whereas caste is inherent to Hinduism). Nonetheless we learn that even a millennium after the Norman invasion of Britain people with Norman surnames such as Darcy, Percy, Baskerville and Mandeville are still on average richer than Anglo-Patels like Smith, Mason and Cooper. Nonetheless British society as Western Europe in general traditionally considered itself as one organic society with only small groups of “service nomads” like Gypsies (peddlers, fortune tellers) and Jews (moneylenders) outside it.

In India basically the entire population appears to be composed of “service nomads” who belong to their own groups and exchange services with other groups. The Vaishya are traders and artisans; The Shudra are farmers; the Kshatriya are warriors; the Brahmins are priests and scholars. Their religion is what binds them together and keeps the whole thing flowing, hence why it is not opposed even by those ostensibly disadvantaged by it. Over several millennia of this caste society operating, in which different castes hardly ever intermarried, you got a plethora of distinct populations that were adapted to their particular divinely-appointed task in life.

In practice this meant a small subsection of Ashkenazi Jewish-like Brahmins with very high IQ’s; and a huge mass of peasants with genetic IQ ceilings somewhere in between those of Europeans and Negroids.

(I would also hypothesize that after the coming of medical modernity this makes for a bad dysgenics situation because Brahmin families will probably have far lower fertility rates than say Shudra, so their share of the Indian population will dwindle; in contrast, homogeneous European and East Asian populations would appear to be more insulated against dysgenic trends because in those societies dysgenics only occurs via lower IQ segments of the population having more kids, while in a place like India – or increasingly multicultural America/Europe – not only lower IQ individuals have more kids but also lower IQ population groups).

So my estimates: (1) India’s current IQ is in the low 80’s; (2) The Flynn effect could yet bring it up to perhaps the low 90’s if India successfully develops (in China the gap is about 5 points but China is of course far richer now and eats far more meat); however, successful development is much harder than in China because starting point IQ’s are far lower. We can expect India to continue growing and gaining on the developed nations but at a pace that will never match China’s; nor, barring technological revolutions (brain-computer interfaces, etc), will it feasibly ever develop to the levels of majority East Asian or European societies.

India will continue benefiting from an extremely intelligent and culturally creative but also very small intellectual upper class of Brahmins. Unfortunately much like Jews they cannot be expected to be all that loyal to the Indian nation (to the extent that an Indian nation exists).


  1. Very thorough analysis…

    Incidentally, I clicked on the link to your discussion of the Pomeranz book, and agreed wholeheartedly. I just happened to read it a few weeks ago and also think it’s one of the most impressively detailed and persuasive “Big Think” books I’ve ever read, totally in a different league from Landes and others in the same general subject.

    • Btw, Mr. Unz, I enjoyed your article on IQ’s: it was beautifully written and informative. I feel sorry that you’re being attacked by many bloggers (who often use condescending or dismissive language in their analyses), but I thought you made great points and backed your statements up with great evidence. Keep up the good work 🙂

    • Thanks.

      I agree that Pomeranz is far superior to Landes, whose book though big is really just a huge collection of historical anecdotes for the most part. Unfortunately Landes is also about 10x better known than Pomeranz and his son gets to write inane editorials for the WSJ.

      Also agreed with Ryan G. Unfortunately there is a large degree of overlap between racists and race realists, and as Lynn is on the far right side of the spectrum as regards the Flynn/genetics debate a lot of the shadier characters flock to his work.

  2. (Some general thoughts:) Mr. Karlin, while I agree that the Brahmins (~5% of India’s pop.) have a very high average IQ, I don’t quite think that the Indian masses are quite as dull as you propose. You claim that the Indians in UK have an average IQ a half standard deviation below Whites, but Indians in Britain outperform Whites on most indicators of social and economic wellbeing. You claim that most Indians in UK are ‘Patels’, and that accounts for their supposedly ‘poor’ performance. Not quite: a large chunk are Jatt Sikhs (i.e. agricultural laborers), Ismailis, and Hindu Bengalis, plus Indian immigrants from E. Africa. Most of the Indians that migrated to Britain were poorer immigrants that came to do factory work or below. In fact, Lynn himself has stated multiple times that Indians there have average IQ’s in the high 90’s.

    Indians in Mauritius and Trinidad are largely descended from plantation laborers, yet, based on the PISA scores of those countries, this would strongly imply an IQ in the early 90’s (about 93) for these two groups (keeping in mind that Trinidad is 40% black, plus 20% Mulatto, Mauritius is ~29% Black- and this probably depresses the scores of these two islands greatly). This may not sound plentiful, but keep in mind that a large percentage (if not an outright majority) of the Indians in these countries are descended from field laborers taken from India’s downtrodden Untouchable castes (many being taken from India’s most backward regions, such as Bihar), who comprise ~15% of India’s population. If a couple of generations of good diet and OK education can raise the average IQ’s of such highly downtrodden peoples to Southern European levels, then I wouldn’t be quick to dismiss the masses of Indians.

    • I agree, the problem with these test is that, Indian education system is in English. We are given education in English while our brain works in Hindi. Myself, I found that when I read numbers in Hindi my brain works fast while on the other end when I took them in English, it slow downs. Also, in lectures (in English) my brain shutdown after sometime even when I am excited about the lecture. If the lecture is in Hindi, my brain never felt sleepy. Also quota system is the problem of resulting in lower IQ. Earlier you will find mostly all the students were having high IQ, but it has fallen these days due to quota. I have worked with different countries students and I can tell you Indian student IQ is not low. They are similar to other students and so do other students.. IQ is just a definition. It is the initial training which makes difference, if Indian politicians give me just one chance (for 20 years). IQ has nothing to do with genetics, you can find that many kids of noble prize winners were born with even low IQ. I can produce a breed of students having IQ of average 100. Indian training is the problem, as we are just following the training system of Britishers, who intelligently used a system which will produce a stupid intelligent workers.

      • Newton Rajkumar says:

        Hindi is spoken by only 30% of the population of India as their mother tongue. Only English has enabled Vish to be a participant of this forum.This is the dilemma of India. When you try to homogenize a diverse society only the preadvantaged miniscule populations gain to the disadvantage of the rest of the traditionally marginalized sections of society. Another anomaly is forgetting the Sumerian, Harappan, Tamil, ASI genetic linguistic and historical contributions to Indian Subcontinental society. After all, all modern Indians are a mixture of ASI and ANI genes. If Vish subjects himself to a genome mapping he will find that the major contributor to his genesis are derived from ASI Dravidian genes, though he may be speaking an Indo Europeon Language now. English though another Indo European Language is favourably servicing the entire subcontinent in all scientific and other inclusive frontiers without discrimination.
        Discrimination in thesociety is the bane of India. Let us be pragmatic.

    • getreal says:

      There are barely any Ismailis in the UK, the Indian Muslim population in the UK is about 140,000 , in which barely 30,000 are Ismailis, that’s not enough to change the iq of Indians at all.

    • VodafoneLok says:

      Not quite: a large chunk are Jatt Sikhs (i.e. agricultural laborers), Ismailis, and Hindu Bengalis, plus Indian immigrants from E. Africa.

      A vanishingly small portion of Indians in the UK are of Ismaili or Hindu Bengali extraction.

      The overwhelming majority of Indian immigrants in the UK are of Punjabi & Gujarati ethnicity.

      Also, while Bihar is an economically “backward” state, schoolchildren there perform better than many economically progressive states [e.g. Tamil Nadu]:

      • Yes, they’re only 30,000 Indian Ismaili Muslims in the UK, and there aren’t any Hindu Bengalis either, most of the Indians here are Patels and Punjabis.

  3. Another issue: you take the PISA score of these 2 Indian states as Gospel, yet it has several flaws when I look at it. The Indian PISA score showed almost NO high scores (none in the top two levels). This is in contrast to the TIMSS test (given to Orissa and Rajasthan), where a respectable 9% of the students in Orissa passed the high international benchmark (and 1% passed the advanced), and whose 95th percentile spread was similar to Norway’s (despite a low average).

    It’s shocking that this distribution would show up in India’s poorest state (Orissa), yet it would be LOWER in two significantly wealthier states? If we take the PISA average as Gospel of India’s abilities, there should be NO Indian students AT ALL who are able to perform high-IQ work. This is in stark contrast to what one sees in India. Somehow, India can build and maintain a space industry, an advanced nuclear weapons program, a top notch IIT program, a burgeoning pharmaceutical industry, replicate Western weapons (aka nuclear subs), etc. India has received millions of high IQ jobs in programming and engineering from other countries. If there were NO high scorers in India (as PISA indicates), then India could not have performed these tasks AT ALL.

    I graduated with chemical engineering and work for a top engineering firm, so believe me when I say this: you need a bit of brainpower to do these things…

    You can dismiss these accomplishments by saying that India has 1 billion people to play with, but this is flawed too. There are 400 million Muslim Arabs, 500 million SE Asians, 800 million Africans, and 400 million Latin Americans, yet I don’t really see many of these achievements duplicated in any of these other regions (save some White-areas of Latin America)…

    There’s no doubt that India’s AVERAGE level of human capital is low, but I would be quick to take the PISA results as Gospel. Isn’t it Steve Sailer who keeps saying that finding a representative average in India is hellishly difficult due to India’s genetic+environmental diversity? I don’t believe the PISA results were either representative or accurate of India’s total capabilities (aka they paint a misleading picture, though they do convey useful information).

    • * I am most emphatically not saying what you are saying I am saying. A large part of the post was indeed about how India manages to achieve great intellectual feats both in the past (Mahabharata/Ramayana, the zero, Buddhism) and present (nuclear subs, space, etc) but have such a bizarrely low IQ in general. My postulate is that Indian castes, especially the Brahmans relative to the rest of the population, are somewhat genetically distinct, and that Brahmans have faced the same selection pressures for intelligence as Ashkenazi Jews.

      This theory is supported by the vast over-representation of Indians with Brahman family names in tabulations of Indian achievement, as well as historical evidence that inequality was higher in India than in China or Western Europe in the Early Modern period when on objective factors it should actually been lower.

      * As I noted in the post, I do not take the PISA results as Gospel. In fact I consider India’s current IQ to be in the low 80’s (as per intelligence) as opposed to 75 (as per the PISA tests).

      * “Isn’t it Steve Sailer who keeps saying that finding a representative average in India is hellishly difficult due to India’s genetic+environmental diversity?” Yes, it is. Hence what I wrote in the first two sentences of this post. 🙂

      * Aren’t field laborers Shudra, not untouchables?

      * I think a genetic Indian IQ potential in the mid-90’s as plausible as one in the low-90’s. However I doubt it is in the high 90’s, and I am almost positive that it is under 100.

      That’s what all the (necessarily back of the envelope) estimates converge on (1, 2, 3).

      I am not under the impression that you fundamentally disagree with this. However you free to write a guest post outlying your own arguments what whatever you estimate the average Indian IQ potential to be. I will be happy to read and publish it.

      * Incidentally, one aspect I find praiseworthy among Indian commentators is that they tend to be mature about HBD discussions. That is unlike the Han/East Asian supremacists who boast about their high IQ’s even though it doesn’t help them get laid, nor are they prone to many of the victimization narratives / racism accusations that seem to characterize Black responses to HBD/intelligence theory.

      • How was the IQ test administered? Again no information on sample size or anything

      • VodafoneLok says:

        Couldn’t it really be that when you increase the level of education amongst Indians, they simply perform far better than they do otherwise?

        It seems silly to compare groups like Brahmins with those at the lower rungs of Indian society; for the former have a far longer history of being literate compared with the latter [newly-rising groups]. This is surely compounded by social dimensions whereby negative discrimination to “moving up the ladder” made it difficult for people from extreme poverty to match the prolific success of the upper-castes.

        A better study would analyse the backgrounds of children from poorer sub-sections of Indian society, whose parents have immigrated to more developed Western nations, and see how much they have _improved in terms of educational structure/IQ_. That would tell us more about the _potential_ IQ [or educational achievement].

        It’s like comparing a rural Congolese with a Swiss from a family of surgeons. Or even their children. We would have to put them in equal circumstances and wait for a few generations to see if the Congolese children could catch up [tracking how rapidly they are _improving_ at all times]. That is a better test.

    • Your question was already answered by me months ago.

      More relevant to the point is that the benchmark for advanced ability for the TIMSS is significantly lower than it is for the PISA which is why no one (or rather the numbers were statistically insignificant) in the Indian states surveyed in the PISA showed up on on right side of the curve this time around why an Indian elite was evident for the TIMSS. For example the latest TIMSS results showed 7% of American students exceeding the advanced benchmark on that test, but only around 1.9% could achieve the lvl 6 on the math section of the PISA test. Likewise Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong, and Japan managed to have 44, 38, 35, 31, and 24% score at the advanced benchmark on the TIMSS but the lvl 6 PISA math results were 16.5, 11.3, 7.8, 10.8, and 6.2 respectively. The Indian states surveyed were only able to eke out a 1% advanced benchmark rating on the TIMSS and the sample who could score at lvl 6 on the PISA was not large enough to even warrant mentioning.

  4. Anatoly,

    Do you believe in hybrid synergies in humans, particularly with regards to cognition?

    • If you mean in the sense that “the whole is greater than the sum of its parts”, then no. The evidence is very strong that the relation between the average IQ of the offspring from two different population groups is just the mean average, of the average IQ of the two groups.

      • No, at a deeper level. I’m talking about mutations resulting in a mental orientation vastly different from what you would expect from the “averaging” of the parents’ own orientations. This may or may not be reflected by an increase in IQ.

  5. 75% of the Indian population gets affirmative action quota in India and is genetically low IQ
    25% of the Indian population is upper caste and higher IQ and does not get quota
    Most of the upper caste population has Y-DNA = R1A = Russian / Slavic

    In North India there are 3 levels of quota, each quota level corresponding to a different IQ level
    In North India Upper caste > Other Backward Caste > Dalit – Untouchable – Tribal

    In South India, there are 4 levels of quota
    Brahmin > Dravidian Backward Caste > Dravidian Most Backward caste > Dalit-Untouchable-Tribal

    Upper castes and Brahmins dont get quota. In North India, upper castes and Brahmins are genetically the same of Aryan origin. In South India, the only Aryan origin caste is Brahmin
    The others are dravidian

    5% of the Indian population is of Oriental race and they dont have a high IQ

    Next vegetarianism = Most upper castes, the higher IQ segment is vegetarian
    The lower castes are non-vegetarian and have lower IQ.

    Jains are a 100% vegetarian merchant caste and they have beaten the Jews in the diamond trade, even in Tel Aviv

    The world chess champion Vish Anand comes from a vegetarian brahmin family

    In India, a non-vegetarian person is likely a low IQ affirmative action caste
    You can check a persons caste rank by simply asking whether they are vegetarian, which implies higher caste

    In the Indian Manhattan project team of 18, of which 15 were brahmin and 3 merchants

    Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc

    The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
    In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97

    In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs

    • well done! thats telling him!

    • Well fish eating will increase your Iq level.So comment like being vegeterian means higher Iq isn’t true because in kerala and Bengal people eat fish and these two community have highest IQ(avg) in India.

    • In south india, some backward casts are fair skinned too…..padmashalis, raju’s etc. And one upper/forward caste…vysya are darkskinned.

    • And except brahmins and vysyas, all upper castes in both north and south eat meat. But the lowest castes in north and south are very malnourished even though they eat meat,,,because meat is very expensive in india.

  6. Qatar School Ranking, top 30 schools out of 153

    Mean PISA = 500 = IQ 100
    SD PISA = 100 = IQ 15

    Science, Math, Reading scores

    For comparison Shanghai = 575, 600, 566 = 112 IQ

    1. Al-Khor Indian Stream, ( GEMS ) = 566, 592, 604 = 113 IQ = Indian Hindu technicians and Engineers of NGL
    2. The International School of Choueifat ( SABIS ) = 554, 562, 565 = 109 IQ = Lebanese Xtian
    3. Doha College Private ( British Embassy ) = 572, 553, 563 = 109 IQ = UK
    4. DPS Modern Indian School ( Delhi Public School Society ) = 552, 538, 563 = 107 IQ = Indian Hindu
    5. Qatar Academy ( US educators ) = 540, 547, 562 = 107 IQ
    6. American School of Doha, ( US Embassy ) = 553, 546, 559 = 108 IQ
    7. Park House English ( UK ) = 568, 528, 552 = 107 IQ
    8. Birla Public School = 586, 539, 549 = 108 IQ = Indian Hindu
    9. Qatar Intl Private School ( UK ) = 539, 529, 540 = 105 IQ
    10. Al Bayan Girls = 481, 464, 516 = Muslim Arab = 98 IQ
    11. Cambridge Intl Private School = 531, 484, 514 = 101 IQ
    12. Doha Modern Indian School ( Jai Gopal Jindal ) = 554, 525, 514 = 104 IQ = Indian Hindu
    13. Al-Khor British Stream ( GEMS ) = 507, 505, 503 = 102 IQ
    14. Dukhan English School ( UK ) = 529, 501, 500 = 102 IQ

    15. Debakey High School for Health ( USA ) = 492, 467, 493 = 98 IQ

    16. Qatar Canadian School = 451, 456, 491 = 95 IQ
    17. MES Indian School ( Muslim Education Society ) = 484, 469, 490 = 97 IQ = Indian Muslim
    18. Ideal Indian School Girls, ( Muslim ) = 481, 450, 489 = 96 IQ = Indian Muslim
    19. Sudanese School = 463, 411, 488 = 93 IQ , remarkably high for black-arab mullatos
    20. Al Arqam = 454, 451, 484 = 95 IQ
    21. The Gulf English = 468, 448, 482 = 95 IQ
    22. Philipine School = 466, 461, 480 = 96 IQ
    23. Jordanian School = 446, 422, 472 = 92 IQ
    24. Tunisian School = 459, 436, 463 = 93 IQ
    25. Lebanese School ( Muslim ) = 444, 501, 463 = 96 IQ
    26. Middle East Intl = 484, 452, 461 = 95 IQ
    27. Al Andalus = 446, 397, 454 = 90 IQ
    28. Ideal Indian School, boys ( Muslim ) = 462, 465, 453 = 94 IQ = Indian Muslim
    29. Egyptian School = 463, 435, 434 = 92 IQ
    30. American Academy = 462, 434, 434 = 92 IQ

    Qatar, 153 school average = 379, 368, 372 = 81 IQ

    School -1 and School-13 are both identical, run by GEMS, and solely for children of
    employees of NGL

    School-1 has Hindu students and School-13 has white students from UK
    and the Hindu students are ahead of white students by nearly 1 SD

    Indian muslims significantly lag behind Indian Hindus

  7. In the California 2012 National Merit list, there were 184 Indian winners of which

    Brahmin = 112
    North Indian Aryan Upper castes = 40
    Dravidian Upper castes = 25
    Patels ( middle ranking ) = 3
    Sikhs ( middle ranking ) = 4

    In the US diaspora, Sikhs and Patels despite being 40% of the diaspora, win just 4%
    In the UK, these same Patels and Sikhs are 80% of the Indian diaspora and easily outperform whites academically

    The above data, also shows that sampling has to be very accurate to reflect the various caste IQs

    • Be advised that this poster rec1man is a south indian brahmin supremacist who is notorious for making up data with the sole intent of making brahmins look like super geniuses.

      • Read also Robert Sapolsky on epigenetics and watch him on youtube. Many societies allow bad epigeneticall memes without to support educational changes and family lessons [ways to behave to children, teached parents in programs statistically rise higher iq children]

  8. Calculating Average Indian IQ from PISA

    TN raw math PISA score = 351
    TN implied IQ = 100 – 1.5 x 15 = 78

    HP raw math score = 338
    HP implied IQ = 100 – 1.62 x 15 = 76

    Indian Avg IQ based on raw PISA = 77

    Next step is to remove the bias caused by the PISA sample having
    75% bilingual kids

    ( Tibetan kids facing Hindi PISA exam and Telegu kids facing Tamil PISA exam )

    TN mono-lingual = 378
    Implied IQ = 500 – 1.22 x 15 = 82

    HP mono-lingual = 401
    Implied IQ = 500 – 15 = 85

    Next there is a 40 point difference between scores for ‘Village’ and scores for ‘Large city’
    In HP and TN, The village category is over-represented by a factor of 4
    Even worse, in HP, City and Large City are entirely removed from the survey sample

    So adding an urban correction of 20 ( half the village-large city difference )

    TN semi-urbanised mono-lingual = 378 + 20 = 398
    Implied IQ = 85

    HP semi-urbanised mono-lingual = 401 + 20 = 421
    Implied IQ = 100 – 0.79 x 15 = 88

    Current Indian IQ = 86

    Next we look to the future as malnutrition is removed

    The only Indian kids who go to govt school is for the mid-day meal,

    If they are not starving they go to private school

    Private schools score 45 more than govt schools and thats the future as poverty reduces

    HP – future – semi-urbanised- mono-lingual = 401 + 20 + 45 = 466

    Implied IQ = 95

    TN – future – semi-urbanised – mono-lingual = 378 + 20 + 45 = 443

    Implied IQ = 91

    Future Indian IQ = 93

    Given the huge bias in sampling towards over-representing the lower end IQ,
    by the poverty pimp NGOs, I am certain that none of the CBSE or Cambridge schools
    that serve the top 15% are included in the survey

    And they have an entirely different IQ profile and cause an IQ bulge at the top end

  9. Great analysis Anatoly

  10. The notion that “India – A Country Of Gypsies And Jews” is very flawed. A lazy remark if i dare to say.

    “Brahmins have average IQ in the US of 112 ” is the key here. Assuming (I have yet to look at detail from which generally recognised stats 112 comes from) this is a fact, it won’t automatically deduce that Brahmins as a tribe have average IQ of 112, for if test the most recent sub-sahara H1B1 arrivals to USA by idenifying one specific African tribe as we do to Brahmins, then one might get the same conclusion that ” Kenya(or whatever) is a Country Of Gypsies And Jews”; or if single out H1B1 Russians or Germans or Mongolians or Iranians, we’ll get Russia ( or Germany or Sweden or Mongolia or Iran) is nation of Country Of Gypsies And Super Super Super Jews, aren’t they? lol. It makes no sense anymore in such contex where basically you get top 3 or 4 sd.

    If all brahmins in India are free to travel and work in USA by only showing their identity cards to the customs, will Brahmins in the US have the same or remotely close to “112 average IQ” (here again, assuming the stats behind is legit)? I guess we all know the answer here, don’t we?

  11. Or look from another angle, actually the RIGHT question here that should be logically asked, and asked loudly, is that

    “Why it is so so low of ONLY 112 average IQ”?
    ( logically assuming the stats behind don’t include some illegal Brahmins who work in cornershops, 7/11, motels and cashwash…at all, but only include those with official SS numbers who primarily in unis and basic code-writting IT firms of H1B1 type)

    If not Brahmins, but say Lower Saxon Germans or Flemish Belgians or Alps Italians primarily on H1B1 instead, their average IQ in the US would probably shoot up to the roof towards 130 or more!

  12. Ambiguous says:

    Indians in Singapore academically perform right in the middle between Chinese and Malays who have an IQ of 108 and 93 respectively. Indians in Singapore are mostly the descendants of indentured labourers.

    Indians in the UK do significantly better than average academically, just somewhat behind Chinese while Bangladeshis (the poorest group) do slightly better than average, only Pakistanis do somewhat worse. In one IQ test Indians were found to have a non-verbal IQ of 103 with a verbal score of 89, that was back in the 80s though. In another a test on recent immigrant children found that their IQ got higher the longer they were in the UK, reaching slightly over 100.

  13. Ambiguous says:

    There’s zero evidence to suggest that Brahmins were selected for intelligence, or even that that they have higher intelligence.

    • Exactly. The flaw in Karlin’s reasoning is this: the brahmins who underperform remain brahmins. There is no evidence that intelligent brahmins outbreed the not so intelligent ones. So there is no selection for intelligence.

      • Brahmins are not from a single ethnic stock. As various tribes and communities were assimilated into the Hindu social structure, each tribe’s shaman or medicine man or priest or philosopher would be accepted as a Brahmin, while their ruler would become a Kshatriya, and things like that. That’s why South Indian and Bengali Brahmins are significantly darker skinned than north-west Indians – there has clearly been a lot of gene flow into the brahmin pool. This would result in higher IQ genes flowing into the brahmin pool.
        And the reason for Jewish intelligence is given the same way, higher IQ Jews thrived and reproduced more than lower IQ ones since their professions involved intellectual activity.

  14. another_anon says:

    Ryan G is just wrong about Indians in UK. It is well known that most Bangladeshi/Pakastani immigrants came over as factory workers — they are performing at the bottom of the intellectual ladder, worse than Africans. However, most Indians came over as educated doctors, teachers, engineers. Their kids perform better than whites a) because of selective immigration, b) they are beaten and bullied and blackmailed into spending enormous amounts of time ‘swotting’ while their european contemporaries are out drinking, chasing girls, getting tattoos and otherwise displaying the disfunctionality of liberal society

  15. Ambiguous says:

    Nevermind, New data is right here based on thousands of UK students. Most Indians were not all that educated btw,

    The table is around the bottom. Note the difference between verbal and non-verbal scores in South Asians, a modest one in Indians and a marked one in Pakistanis/Bangladeshis, this is probably due to lack of English proficiency among a lot of them. Oh and note the Chinese non verbal score at around 110.

    • That is some very interesting data, thanks. I will post on that as well.

      • Ambiguous says:

        Thanks. It amazes me that while the UK regularly publishes quality data like this some people are STILL taking seriously nonsense by people like “recmann”!

        • (Sorry I’m slow in commenting, I work +6 days a week): Ambiguous, I’m looking at the data at the bottom page-the one for ethnicities-and it seems that the Indians in Britain are not doing terribly. They’re not Ashkenazis, but they seem to be doing fine. Am I missing something, or misunderstanding your comments?

        • Doesn’t this data suggest that the Indians in Britain are not all that dull??

        • And yes, while Rec1man makes some good points, much of what he says in unintelligible blather (both in grammar and in content). I believe that, corrected for nutrition+literacy, Indian IQ’s would rise substantially across the board (from Dalit to Brahmin), but there is other evidence to demonstrate this than by claiming that Brahmins are supermen and the rest of India is made of donkeys.

          My two cents…

          • Ambiguous says:

            I don’t think he makes any good points.

            Anyway the data for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis is also relevant. Bangladeshis are the poorest group in this study with the least educated parents and the average of their quantitative and non-verbal scores is 97, just 4 points below whites that’s a BIG gain on what they score as 3 year olds and 5 year olds when they’re the lowest scoring group.

            • What was your original point about Indians? Were you claiming that Indians in the UK were dull, or that they’re doing well?

              • Ambiguous says:

                I never claimed they’re dull, did I? The data clearly shows they’re not, neither are other South Asians.

    • It’s also worth noting that girls performed better than boys on both verbal and non-verbal tests. Naturally, you’d expect the boys to do better on the non-verbal test. I suspect that some cultural elements are at play.

      • Ambiguous says:

        Boys do significantly (for a gender gap) better in quantitative reasoning though, and the girls only do 0.4 points better in the non verbal bit. Overall girls score 100.5 while boys score 100.3.

        • I was about to say that I didn’t see the “quantitative reasoning part”. Even so, a 1 point difference between boys and girls in that criteria is not “significant”. Moreover, the difference is not as big as I (and probably you) expected.

  16. Ambiguous: “I never claimed they’re dull, did I? The data clearly shows they’re not, neither are other South Asians.”

    I couldn’t agree more, as I’ve been arguing that for a while. I think I need to send you a bottle of champagne…

  17. Sorry brahmins like central asian iranian so there iq must be around 85 only.In business sector vaishya out perform brahmins

  18. There are over 50 million brahmins in India. More than 40% of them live in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh (population:200 million), which also happens to be one of the poorest states in India, which itself is poor even by third world standards. How do you reconcile that with these claims of high brahmin IQ?

    • That being said, there does seem to be a separation of IQ between Brahmin and the rest of the Indian population. As they have their version of affirmative actions, plus personal observation is that there are a lot more people in the high tech fields are Brahmin. Higher than the 5% of the native population.

      Here is my conjecture. Brahmins come from the Aryan population which is now modern day Iran or Iraq. Since the Iranians (and in general N Africans and Middle Easterners) have IQ in the mid to high eighties, it is reasonable for the Brahmins to also have similar IQ. Since the average for India was reported to be 82 by Lynn, the rest of the population might be a tad below this, say 80. That is half a standard deviation separation between the Brahmins and the rest. It should explain the pattern we see in the high tech world.

      • A lot of such speculations are wishful thinking on the part of brahmins such as rec1man and westerners who like to imagine that aryans were from their part of the world.

        Visual inspection and genetic testing do not show any real distinction between castes. All indians are a mix of ANI and ASI which varies by region not caste:

      • Iranian and Middle Eastern IQs suppressed by their reclusive and insular religion

  19. Unfortunately much like Jews they cannot be expected to be all that loyal to the Indian nation (to the extent that an Indian nation exists).
    Why is this so? It seems you are hoping that India and Israel will fail. ALL Indians look towards Mother India. BTW what were European IQs in the dark ages and what were they in Rennassance period? What are the SDs of IQ scores? Are the East Asian SDs lower? Do they all clump around 102? Are the European SDs higher and do they spread more to genius levels? Is that why we see more craetive output from white people than others. You have to answer these. And BTW most brahmins are vegetarians. That is rule of caste. Vegetarianism is best for the tropics. Chinese eat very litle meat. Just a smattering scattred among their noodles. The big meat eaters are the Westerners. Meat is an excellent diet for cold countries. Meat screws up the system in the tropics.
    When the light skinned Aryans first came to India, they were ALL meat eaters and beef eaters. But warm tropical climes changed their diets.

  20. also Flynn is a Fool. He predicted that Japan would rule the world based on his IQ studies. Look what happened to Japan

  21. and again I do NOT notice East Asian SDs. Why the secrecy

  22. I don’t understand when the author said caste is inherent to Hinduism. That makes me feel that he is fairly ignorant and his research is incomplete. But the fact is today’s caste system is the outcome of fights between kings and invaders, greed of feudal lords in the dark ages of India. Varna(caste) system actually is not based on birth but on deeds.
    For the validity of my argument let me quote Manu Smriti:
    “A Shudra becomes a Brahmin and a Brahmin becomes a Shudra because of his Karma”
    Karma means deed. That’s all

  23. I had think all your writing as flimsy once you mentioned India being invaded by “Aryans”. If you still believe in such myths, the whole article instantly loses credibility, and appears as a weird hypothesis by a wannabe expert. To understand a diverse society with more than 5000 years of stable civilization, you have to do the required homework. So please educate yourself about India’s civilizational history, take into account historical research of the last 2-3 decades which has demolished colonialist history! I am sorry that I have to be blunt, but your article has only shown how utterly ignorant you are about this country and intellectual prowess of its people. Just look at the pre industrial revolution western society and compare with the then India. Before the British colonizers started the loot in India, it was the richest nation of the world. (if you are surprised, you need to read the economic history of the world)

    As far as the study of IQ is concerned, it’s flawed.

    Caste is perhaps the most misunderstood concept by foreigners. Caste had nothing to do with IQ. For example a couple of the most revered books: Ramayana was written by a tribal guy Valmiki and the mother of Mahabharata’s author Veda Vyas came from a fisherman’s family.

    Please refrain from posting articles with tons of incorrect information.

  24. All of you need to read, investigate history of India even before speaking about it.
    1) The IQ figures are given for the time period of 1945-90. The study does not include current IQ figures.So based on the past figures we cannot compare the intelligence of Indians with any other people.
    2) The upper caste people for hundreds of centuries had access to education. Woman and lower castes were prohibited and those who tried to study were prosecuted. In order to compensate the loss and to create equality and give them justice reservation was implemented. But this doesn’t mean that the lower caste people or women are not talented. They were and still are talented but to show their talent they were given this opportunity. The only people who are against it are upper caste men as it has taken away their power of controlling people through superstition and blind faith.
    3) Archeological evidences show Aryans never existed.British linguist Max-Muller created this Aryan Invasion theory based on language and color. But it is now disregarded as it has been proved wrong by the archeologists. This theory was supported by the Europeans to prove their superiority and to justify that India was already colonized in the past. This created less opposition. The upper caste desperately trying to save their position jumped into the theory saying they were Aryans.
    4) DNA’s show that all the people in India including Brahmins are indigenous people not some foreigners.
    5) If Aryans came to India and settled here, then why didn’t British , French and other European people settle here post Independence??? Why are more and more Indians spreading and settling across the world and fewer of foreigners settling in India?
    6) There is no evidence that Upper caste people are Aryans. If you are thinking that color decides the caste system, trust me I have seen black coloured Brahmins and brown skinned Kshatriyas and fair/white
    out-castes.Even the Hindu Gods are Black. So colour is not the basis of caste system in India.
    7) According to one theory, the out-castes include real foreigners (including the Greeks who fought with Porous) settled in India. Out-castes also included people who were Buddhists but during the Revival of
    Hinduism, Hindus harassed all these people who were against following Hinduism and drove them outside the city’s boundaries and socially isolated them.
    8) Please read all the theories and riddles of Brahmanism, Hinduism, Buddhism in India without bias irrespective to who wrote it and then write/comment on it. Even most of the educated Indians are ignorant of
    true history of India. Don’t believe in what people say or write without any archeological, scientific or concrete evidence or proofs.

    • “Skeptical on December 24, 2012 at 10:11 pm said:
      6) There is no evidence that Upper caste people are Aryans. If you are thinking that color decides the caste system, trust me I have seen black coloured Brahmins and brown skinned Kshatriyas and fair/white
      out-castes.Even the Hindu Gods are Black. So colour is not the basis of caste system in India.”

      Actually the ‘Arya/ Ari’ and some other derivatives of word arya stand for ‘enemy’ in the language of upper caste. A popular Brahmin name is Aridaman i.e. the one who suppresses Aryans. On the other hand there is a strong evidence for untouchables being of aryan decent, both on account of history and genetics. Upper castes particulalry of Northern India have alot of Australoid blood and this have a lot of black/highly dark skins. This is true of brahmins/thakur and banias. Upper castes are non aryan. Further, other than ancinet Israel only Indian civilization (post Buddhist) has rejected God showing non aryan nature of Brahmin culture.

  25. So far as I have seen, the R1 gene not only has its largest number of individuals and highest percentage in North West India/Pakistan but also its highest diversity. This makes sense. The Harrapa civilization was early and must have been a spreading centre for agriculture. So, an R1 community established there post ice age (via Iran) would have spread back to Iran and Russia. The language may even have been PIE. The later Aryan invasion chronicled in Sanskrit was an elite replacement not a large scale population movement. It’s just that the people writing about it identified with the elite, just as with the Anglo-Saxon invasion of England. Lots of then were already there. It was a movement within an existing R1 area. India is clearly a huge mix. Early in its spread, the human race in South India was wiped out by the Toba eruption and the area was recolonized from both East and West. The East African Asian success stories that I know socially, (some are in laws to other members of my family) are all Brahmins but I think that their success, like that of the Jews from Eastern Europe, relates to family tradition rather than innate superior intelligence. In Africa, they provided all the services in small towns for the African communities in the countryside, just as Jews in Russia were restricted from land ownership outside the Pale. It takes many generations to lose such acculturation. (Try the Iroquois 5).

  26. Possible explanations for IQ gaps:
    1. Selective reproductive advantage for intelligent individuals, similar to Ashkenazi Jews, since the community was limited to intellectual tasks.
    2. Selective gene flow from intelligent individuals into the brahmin gene pool – India is not homogenous in ethnic origins. Waves of migrations and multiple indigenous cultures were formed into the matrix of Hinduism, and each community’s shaman, priest, poet and philosopher would have been granted the status of brahmins for that community – that is why there are dark-skinned Brahmins in the South and East of the country, where the people in general are darker complexioned, rather than a uniform sea of white skinned Brahmins.
    3. Perhaps some epigenetic mechanism may be involved, transmission of acquired characteristics.
    4. Maybe all cultural, no genetics whatsoever.

  27. I’ am an Indian.
    Caste System? Brahmins? You are wrong mister.
    That was the past.It exist but not as prevalent and explict as you say it is.
    Untouchables? Nothing sort of that exists now. Like In Many Other countries , the major inequality
    is ofcourse based on wealth.
    I still can’t get over the fact you have not properly researched before making such serious allegations.

  28. Most Indian intellectuals are not brahmin or even Hindu who do not fall in any of this caste system. Infact the nuclear scientists who figured out the nuclear bomb is a Muslim from Tamil nadu. There is no genetic difference between the caste system. Infact most brahmin are very dark skin.

  29. explain this : Constitution of India was grafted by BR Ambedkar an untouchable who got the rare opportunity of getting education from good univ. thanks to the generosity of a Ksathriya landlord.

    APJ Kalam – former Indian president invented Indian Nuclear Delivery Systems and AR Rahman is one of the world’s best musicians also known as Mozart of Madras. Asia’s first Nobel Laureate was not a Brahmin and so was Gandhi. Sardar Patel was a Shudra and played a key role in getting India’s independence and Narendra Modi is an untouchable and has transformed the face of his state making it one of the fastest developing regions on the planet. Many African countries are developing very rapidly for example Nigeria while Arabs. The thing is that people emulate what others in their brethren achieve , in case of West , the achievements of Britiain – a white christian country prompted others to follow. The reason why in present day and age the low caste converts to christianity progress much faster than their unfortunate Hindu or Sikh or Muslim cousins. The same reason why Muslim world over are backward irrespective of the race., many caucasian or fair skinned countries are Muslim and are a dismally deprived eg. Afganistan.

    • Kalam and Rahman were both hindus who converted to Islam. Rahman is a first generation convert ans Kalam is a second generation convert.

  30. Dont let some of these Hindu posters fool you (particularly Rec1, or whatever his name is; he draws up stats from thin air). Pakistan, a Muslim country, has a touch higher IQ than India (84 against 82) while Bangladesh, another Muslim country, averages the same IQ as India. Fazlur Khan, a Bangladeshi Muslim, is regarded as the ‘father’ of modern structural engineering. He also designed the Sears Tower in Chicago. Sal Khan of Khan academy, another Bangladeshi Muslim, is likely more intelligent than the 99% of current Indian Hindu Brahmins.

    • We are talking genetic potential.Pakistani 84 is probably due to significantly less malnourishment rates than India.
      The upper caste Hindus especially Brahmins are vastly superior to South Asian muslims.
      Why is it during around 500 years of Islamic domination of the subcontinent science and tech discoveries earlier common to the subcontinent mostly disappeared and what little was done was done in tiny Hindu Kindgoms like the Kerela school of mathamatecians.Can you name one great south asian muslim scientist between 11th and 18th century ORIGINATING in Islamic India??

      Why is that? Why is it Pakistan’s chief export is still low end textiles,rice,cotton yarn cement and other low value add items and India’s chief exports are Software,Engineering goods,Petrochemicals and Gems and Jewelry??Given the fact both nations began basically at the same time and Pakistan being in the US camp in the cold war had access to US tech and markets(like south Korea did) which India did not?

      Why does India have some of the best engineering and math schools in the developing world(IISC,IIT etc) and Pakistan doesn’t ?

      The only objective answer is that the top 25% cognitive fraction of India is vastly superior to Pakistan’s top 25%.I know it hurts but numbers don’t lie.

  31. Indians export crappy software and engineering products. They are ruining the US as we speak. It is a Jewish agenda to see as many low IQ foreigners get into positions of power in the US so the country gets ruined. The bulk ofgraduates turned out by universities across India are low quality, only good enough to work in call centres as tech support (which even a high school kid can be trained to do).

    Brahmins make up a tiny percentage of India. Lot of these Brahmins are not very bright anyway. The bulk of India is low IQ.

    • yeah typical muslim looser it must be the jooos!

      Why is it that Pakistan with as you are suggesting a similar if not slightly greater IQ profile as Indians is still exporting mangoes,rice,cement and low end textiles(well over 90% of Paki export basket)?

      Shouldn’t Pakistan export atleast proportionately equal(i.e 1/7) value added products that India does ? Shouldn’t it have proportionately as many good colleges as India?

      Shouldn’t they have proportionately as many winners in the various maths/physics/biology/chemistry olympiads(which is a reflection of the top percentile of talent in the country)?(Actually given the fact that a country can only send 6 contestants it is not just a proportional thing still even proportionally Indians mop the floor with Pakis in EVERY such olympiad or chess tournament or any cerebral intensive activity you care to mention.

      Shouldn’t it have atleast 1 conglomorate in the same league as Tata,Birla,Reliance etc?Especially since it was a US ally in the cold war and had much better access pre WTO to US markets and technology.

      But no nothing.All the nation excels in is terrorism and wild conspiracy theories(joos are behind everything that happens in this world)

      There is only one explaination the upper cast hindus(&jains,parsees) have a completely different IQ profile from the rest of the subcontinent specially muslims.

  32. The Tatas are Parsis, Premji is Muslim. Anyway, India has probably reached full potential because the vast majority of India is low IQ, only a little better than Sub-Saharan Africa. The worst thing the West did was to allow the corrupt, low IQ Indians in their countries. They are destroying the US, UK. And yes, it was the Jews that opened the floodgates. The standard of living in Pakistan and Bangladesh is better than India, where some 65% of the people shit in the open.

    Here is a bit about Bangladesh from Wiki:

    East Bengal – the eastern segment of Bengal – has been historically an important center of trade and commerce since at least the first millennium BCE.[15] The Ganges Delta provided advantages of a mild, almost tropical climate, fertile soil, ample water, and an abundance of fish, wildlife, and fruit.[15] The standard of living is believed to have been higher compared with other parts of South Asia.[15] As early as the thirteenth century, the region was developing as an agrarian economy.[15] The region was a junction on the south west silk route, and commercial centers emerged at several ancient and historical cities across the region. Under Mughal rule, the region flourished as the center of the worldwide muslin trade.[15] The British, however, on their arrival in the late eighteenth century, chose to develop Calcutta, now the capital city of West Bengal, as their commercial and administrative center in South Asia.

    • A lot of accomplished Hindus were forcibly converted to Islam during centuries of Mughal rule or else were faced with death. Notable examples are Pandit Tansen, Nine jewels from the court of Akbar were all forcibly converted to Islam. When the Mughals conquered India they wiped off a large number of high ranking hindu warriors and noblemen and forcibly converted the rest. I do hope these issues are accounted for when such an article is written? India is very diverse and it is difficult to measure IQ across such a diverse population.

  33. yeah right you inbred idiot.You have not refuted a single point I made logically so you fall back on your useless jews did this jews did that old wives tales.

    FACT 1 Upper caste Indians ,parsees and Jains are vastly more intelligent than south asian muslims(Pakistanis especiallly) measured on EVERY measurable index of intellectual attainment.It is Ironic you are using the example of Wipro(one of many Indian IT companies) to prove that muslims also can do something (I never said 100% of muslims are useless just that on average they are far behind) now and then.Why doesn’t Pakistan have a Wipro?Another Jewish conspiracy?

    FACT 2 India has a higher HDI than Pakistan and Bangladesh and the gap is increasing not decreasing.

    FACT 3 India has a proper industrial base Pakistan does not(The made in China atami bum doesn’t count)

    FACT 4 Muslims of South Asian origin have historically ZERO science and tech achievements(9th century to 19th century) in stark contrast to Hindu Brahmins and other upper castes.Name me one half decent south asian muslim scientist in the mughal empire surely there was no lack of resources.But then why nothing?Zero.Ziltch.

  34. The Jews will do their best to ensure Muslim countries from having a large market for their products. This is why there is now a concerted effort on the part of Muslim countries around the world to build a global market amongst themselves (like a free-market area) so they can trade more openly and have lower tariff. This will bypass Jewish/American/Indian efforts to suppress Muslims.

  35. In any case, India will likely break up within 2/3 decades.

  36. Yeah yeah Paki.Dream on.
    The break up expert is Pakistan.Remember 1971? Balochistan and NWFP are also going the same way.
    Muslim countries forming a trade block ROFL. Blind leading the blind.Best of luck.
    In any case Turkey has a preferential zero tarriff treaty with EU
    The GCC is a association of US backed puppets.
    Indonesia and Malaysia are members of the ASEAN.

    Other than these semi competent countries who else do we have?Pakistan Afghanistan,Nigeria,Sudan…LOL!

  37. Shame on you racist , you tell Christians dont discriminate then how did slave trade happened ? oh no all Hindu are evil only Christians are good?
    There is no genetic difference between the so called aryans and Non-aryans in India, how does you are going to answer that?
    Probably your IQ is just 10, At least try to respect other cultures.

  38. Everything written here about Hinduism appears to be written by a rotten Christian mind. We all know that Christians and Muslims consider themselves exclusive and here is one more piece of shit to justify that. Fuckers first learn about the Hindu Civilization and then comment over it. Do not dare to comment with half knowledge ever. I will not try to counter any shit written above because discussions happen when the other side possess a thing called as BRAIN and you Chirstian shitters are a disgrace to Jesus Christ and nothing else.

  39. This seemed a good discussion on abilities and intelligence of People who are genetically Indian. Some of the above commenters seem to have an emotional response to the author who is perhaps a journalist or social scientist. The commenters should have given a calm and rational answer or insight they can provide. Having been to some parts of Europe and usa and after carefully observing those peoples, I can state that Food, geography and cultural history shaped the IQ and intelligence of people in India and some parts of Asia. Europeans had access to meat and milk which helped them to develop better brains than Indians who are somewhat less evolved ,Most of Indians (90% or so, this includes Sikh, patel,jain,BC,OBC, SC, ST ) are somewhere in between African and Central European in abilities as a result the infrastructure in India is somewhere in between Africa and Europe. However, with access to education and knowledge everybody thinks that they are intelligent than other countries even though the results – Engineered products, goods, pharmaceuticals are inferior and sloppy at best . I think Indians need to evolve further to be able to do complex math, engineering, research in science, arts, music . At the moment, there is no indigenous airplane, semiconductor company, Automotive, Infrastructure, Engineering industry which is better than those in Europe or North America. Most of the knowledge and skills required to make complex things like trains, boats, aircrafts- domestic and military, automobiles is from other countries in Europe. This knowledge didn’t originate in India even though there seems to be some history of Indians involved in math, metallurgy, crafts. This knowledge is copied or leased from other countries . If Indians were so intelligent, then they don’t need outside help which should be the logical question they should ask themselves. There seem to very few intelligent people at less than 10% who are the thinkers, inventors , engineers, doctors , the rest were quickly populated into these professions to satisfy shortage in these fields. As a result there are more sloppy, lazy people in India than in other countries. Perhaps it is very late to see all this but Indians should think , be creative and invent before doing mundane things like sex, watching TV, listening to songs , radio. Most Indians memorize knowledge and copy products, re-invent things in India which were done more than a decade or two ago in other countries and then claim these inventions as theirs. This is not a true indicator or Intelligence no matter what these iq tests and university degrees say. The problems seem to be in approach to solve problems .Technique is not important in getting things right as its in central Europe. More and more Indians , Chinese seem to emulate or imitate Jews who are somehow in the background of most industries but never do the actual work which is delegated to Germans, British, French, Danish, Dutch; these are the actual brains which built the world today with newer technologies. Problems continue to loom India as they don’t want to work on future than worry about past and having that sense of superiority of inventions in ancient world. You must have heard how ancient Indians invented everything in the world today which includes numerals 0-9 while Europeans were barbarians living in caves 3000 years ago and north America was occupied by a primitive people called Mayans and Aztecs. The above story is repeated everything you question the abilities of Indian people. There should be more rational and objective reasons why some cultures are better than others.

    • Indianswon says:

      The Tamil Brahmins are only 2 million in numbers but have won more Nobel prizes in Physics and Chemistry than China, even though Chinese infrastructure is better than Indian infrastructure, your a fool, some brains are more compatible for esoteric thought, some are compatible for mechanical purposes, some are artistic and creative, while some have a combination of both. The Chinese in the past used bamboo for natural gas reserves, while Indians started the concept of zero, which points to more esoteric mindsets, the Mayan calender to even today is considered to be just as accurate as a computer generated calendar. An Indian American child just last year won a Scholastic Science Olympiad competition by figuring out a way to charge cell phones in 20 seconds, companies like Google are trying to hire the kid at this very moment. The USB, PGB, and PCI Express, were developed by computer architect Ajay Bhatt, who also innovated in the fields of Platform Power Management, and also help with various chip improvements and had 32 patents has an esoteric mindset too. The Agni 6 missile is the first intercontinental missile to have an extra 20% distance with the same amount of fuel, if launched from India, every country that falls through the Middle East to the state of California is in its range, and the other scientist around the world are still trying to figure out why. The Chinese and Japanese are far from copycats too, you whites are just jealous that they have surpassed you, so you started some notion that they have less creativity. If you ever seen Japanese anime and Manga, and the philosophies of Confucisionism, you would know how much bs your talking . Europeans can’t take the fact that their civilizations survive through means of war, they can’t maintain and innovate, the Roman Empire was the closest at 1,200 years, every other European civilization falls within 100 -400 years, while the Chinese have had civilizations for 5,000 years and the Indians have had 20% of the world’s GDP during the Mauryan Empire, the rise of China and India isn’t new, its just how the world was structured ever since the ancient days, they’re just coming back again, Europeans have just been a fluke for the last 400 years because of their already worn out industrial revolution, which doesn’t even have any significant leverage nowadays, with already stuff like smart cities being in designed in India, go look up GIFT City on Google. Wake up white boy its the 21st century, your invention of mayonnaise is worn out and people have already been searching for more Helium 3 in space for interstellar space travel in other countries. Your arrogance will just leave you in the dust or conquered sooner or later, America is already starting to look more like Detroit, the British Empire nowadays is considered a laughing stock to China and India, with just a couple of ballistic missile finishing that landmass in a second.

  40. What were the parameters of the IQ test. Was it done along homogenous lines of socioeconomic class excluding all confounding outliers?

  41. the fact says:

    Indian ‘s success in US is mainly because of their English advantage, Chinese just started to learn English 30 years ago while Indians started 300 years ago . They fit in US corporation culture very well – very good at trash talks …

  42. It’s not that difficult. They come here, live in a superior culture built by white-men, and improve themselves. They are what the Fuhrer would have called cultural-sustaining peoples. They can’t invent a toilet by themselves, but they won’t destroy yours either. Unlike the Negroids, for example. Anyone that has a problem with anything that I have said, move to India or East St. Louis.

  43. one riddle here is why the low caste converts to Christianity and Islam do so so well in India (APJ Abul Kalam, A R Rehman etc.)and high literacy and standards of living in Kerela, Goa, NE States like Mizoram, Manipur etc. I think that the social network resources they get after conversion helps them succeed. They did not have low IQ, but being outcatses their resources were highly limited which depressed their success. Just my cents

  44. Most of the indians who got an iq of 112 in the united states are not brahmins but belong to other upper castes too. Only a few of them are brahmins.

  45. A fellow idiot... says:

    Interesting discussion until Mr. Khan decided to chime in with his India bashing idealogies, and equally foolish guy who thought was giving Mr Khan a befitting reply. Mr egp felt left out and decided to join the little verbal war with his two cents, literally, appearing slightly more intelligent than a baboon.

    Every country has a fare share of so called “elites”, and the “rest”. There are people who like to invent, people who like to lead the inventors, people who like to follow, the creative types, yada yada yada. You will find these categories in every country irrespective of their religion or ethnicities. No one is better than the other. I have seen the east and the west and have spent considerable amount of time in both the places so trust me when I write this: In general people are idiots driven by nothing more than their primal instincts, even the so called “calm and rational thinkers”. We have reached a point in time where unless we find cleaner and abundant resource to sustain, we will all be drowning in our piss and shit along with our “superior intelligence”. Work together and we can all be happy….sure then we can continue with pissing contest. Intelligence and compassion go hand in hand. Intelligence without compassion is hollow and a burden on the society and man-kind, polluting and consuming eveything in sight under pretext of progress.

    And as far as the IQ goes, Einstein once said “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”, unless of course y’all think was an idiot. Give people a chance to show their real talent and with our combined efforts we can uplift the man-kind.

    Alright, I am now ready to be plastered by your ignorance. Go ahead, insult me!

  46. a fellow idiot again... says:

    I found a very interesting article which co-relates stress and malnuturition to intelligence or there lack of…

    Makes sense, no? – The brain is too busy trying to survive and doesn’t have enough reserves for designig an airplane. Generations of insecurity translates into physical alteration (epigenetics: of one’s DNA and before you realize you have an entire population exhibiting that trait. The good news is that it is reversable but make take a few of generations.

    While I am at it, Greece and Romans have a rich history. We all grew up reading stories of their kings conquiering every piece of land they had their sight on…well almost. Their contributions to science, medicine, engineering, philosophy have been the back bone of our progress yet they face a dire financial crisis today and at a verge of collapse. Wonder what happened there.

    Again, we should stop looking at the world in fragments. We would be much happier and perhaps make a happier society.

  47. “Brahmins occupy a lot of the intellectually demanding positions……………………A lot of the (super high IQ) US Indian immigrants appear to be Brahmins.”

    Dear Anatoly, While I don’t want to get involved in any caste discussion, I won’t agree that any particular caste has higher
    IQ. Infact caste groups Kayastha and Khatri have occupied more intellectually demanding positions over a very long periods of time (a timeline of 3500 years) and even now.

    Brahmins are distinguished from other castes by the presence of j2 y chromosome (@ 20- 25%, a proof of middle eastern origins). Brahmins are thus similar to Jews (but middle eastern Shephardic jews and not Asheknazi), so they must have a similar IQ in 80s(may be middle 80s, Indian IQ being in the same range). The untouchables(lowest caste) of India are of pure Aryan decent and are the most heavily R1a1 group in India (R1a1 ~ 70%) even after a three thousand year of existence.

    Three thousand two hundred sixty years ago, when Moses was alive and Helen of Troy was a few decades away from birth, a Brahmin King abducted a Jain Nun(an Indian religion), a scythian(Saka) king (Pali name – Dimitt, probably named demeter or Demetrues) from very very far off land had to invade and free her. Thereafter scythians settled in India. Unable to merge into Indian society, they became untouchables (most menial ). All other invading Aryan tribes, Assyrian, Hun, Greek(Ionian), abisare, Parthian and probably some Amorites too became untouchables once their power waned off, but the untouchable group in most menial positions is of scythian origin and genetic and some cultural elements can still be observed. Ironically Aryans became untouchables in the country in which they originated in a remote past.

  48. Hello Indianswon,

    Well indeed Tamils have won many Nobel Prizes but you are misinformed: China have won 11 Nobel Prizes till date.

    China do not acknowledge Nobel Prizes so they are not often selected for it either. Still they have won it in science. Note also that they have their own Nobel equivalent.

    Also Note that many Chinese immigrants and Hong Kongers have won more Nobel Prizes than even poor Tamils can even dream about.

    Indians, please don’t be ignorant rant. Be informed. Acknowledge the truth.This is the age of Information.

  49. FYI: Chinese have won 11 Nobel prizes, and 8 of them in Science; 6 in Physics and two in Chemistry.

    P.S.: Of course Indians may have won another 3 Nobel if Sir J.C. Bose, Meghnad Saha and S.N. Bose were given their Nobel dues, but that’s a different story.

  50. fuck you anatoli shithead

  51. D.K. Chaterjee says:

    “anon says:
    August 12, 2014 at 8:48 am

    Dear Anatoly, While I don’t want to get involved in any caste discussion, I won’t agree that any particular caste has higher
    IQ. Infact caste groups Kayastha and Khatri have occupied more intellectually demanding positions over a very long periods of time (a timeline of 3500 years) and even now.

    Brahmins are distinguished from other castes by the presence of j2 y chromosome (@ 20- 25%, a proof of middle eastern origins). Brahmins are thus similar to Jews (but middle eastern Shephardic jews and not Asheknazi), so they must have a similar IQ in 80s(may be middle 80s, Indian IQ being in the same range). The untouchables(lowest caste) of India are of pure Aryan decent and are the most heavily R1a1 group in India (R1a1 ~ 70%) even after a three thousand year of existence.”

    What rubbish, what proof do you have that we Brahmins have Arab J haplogroup, Indeed Brahmins have greater amount of R1a common among Slavic European populations. Bengali Brahmins have the highest frequency of R1a. Even Kokanastha Chitpavan Brahmins of Konkan, the same people who made up the Peshwas who ran the Mighty hindu maratha Empire have more R1a. Where did you get J from?

  52. Murge_ki_Tang says:

    Tang says:

    “China do not acknowledge Nobel Prizes so they are not often selected for it either. ”

    Very smart Mr Tang. China doesn’t recognise nobel prizes. It doesn’t recognise international borders (Mc Mohan Line, Japan, Philippines, Bhutan, Vietnam, South Asian Sea), It doesn’t recognise sovereignty of other nations (Tibet, et all) . Good excuse for your rogue behaviour.

    Your IQ is amply shown by the quality of your friends. Every rogue and rascal in this world has China as its best friend (Pakistan, North Korea, Pol Pot….). Birds of the same feather flock together. Pakistan has gifted you 5000 sq km of totally barren and completely useless land and you have gifted them rusty weapons which don’t fire.