Number of active churches in the Russian Empire/USSR/post-Soviet space from 1900 to 2000 via the blogger genby.
One element of Stalinist propaganda is that he presided over the rebirth of the Russian church. However, one graph is worth thousands of words, and we can immediately see that there was no such thing – there were far fewer active churches even after the Soviet regime’s war-mandated “reconciliation” with religion than there were during the NEP.
There were 29,500 active churches by 2010, and genby estimates there might be 35,000 today.
Taking into consideration that the geography considered encompasses not only Russia, but apparently all of the former republics, and that the population in 2017 was much, much larger than in the late 1930’s, are we to be impressed at this growth?
First of all, aren’t you in a prissy mood?
Secondly, we should certainly be impressed that the amount of churches rose from ~15000 to around 30-35000 from the late mid-1990s until the mid-2010s. Russia’s population in that time period has been fairly similar.
Thirdly, while I am an atheist myself, I do feel a tinge of jealousy since the Russian Orthodox Church is much more tightly connected to a specific cultural area and identity whereas the Catholic Church in Poland is the same for 1.3 billion Catholics, i.e. far more washed out and universalist. Religion does matter for identity and the narrower the religion, the more it helps with endogamy. You see this with e.g. Hindus in the US, they have the lowest outmarriage rate of all Asians. Christian groups, either majority or plurality, tend to have high out-marriage rates(Koreans, Filipinos).
Also, religion, for all its flaws, can be a bedrock of support to the poorest in society during turbulent and trying times. For all these reasons, I’m pleased that the Russian population is seeing a religious revival, but more importantly, that their religion is far more narrowly tailored to their people (and a few connected kin) than ours ultra-globalist one with the abomination Pope Francis at the helm. If I had my way, Poland would convert to Eastern Orthodox tomorrow, however impossible that would likely be. A man can dream, though.
Ultimately, I’d prefer a Slavic-only religious superstructure and Catholicism from that PoV is a pathetic joke.
According to Populstats, the population of Russia today is about 40% higher than that of the RSFSR in 1938 and about 13% higher than the RSFSR in 1975. That of the Soviet sphere generally is 67% higher, but the increase is abnormally concentrated in the Muslim zones.
I guess it’s less complicated to count Churches than it is to count parishioners. I’ve read that rates of weekly mass attendance in Russia are about the European mean. (I think it might have been in an article in Granta, not a social research journal). Sort of curious that radically different histories have led the Churches to a similar social position in the societies in question. Vatican II and Francis have left much of the Catholic Church circling the toilet bowl. It would be sweet if that does not happen to Orthodoxy.
Ultimately, I’d prefer a Slavic-only religious superstructure and Catholicism from that PoV is a pathetic joke.
The problem the Catholic Church faces is not its universalism (the demise of the Latin Mass was a disaster), but that it conforms to Robert Conquest’s laws of bureaucracy: it is controlled by a secret cabal of its enemies.
The Boomer Unleashed
https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/The-Russian-HATES-You-And-WANTS-You-and-Me-Dead/5-2079747/
I doubt that makes a difference. Protestant churches have tended to be intimately tied with an ethnic group since they mandated a Bible translation and literacy and that required working with a particular language. Two generations ago our Lutheran clergy were the bedrock of militant ethnonationalism but now we have transsexual lesbian priests and welcome parties for Muslims.
The small Finnish Orthodox church, an inheritor of the pre-revolutionary Russian Orthodox Church that was never infiltrated by Stalinists or post-1960s Western Marxists, provides a lot of hilarity in culture wars. Our leftists can’t seem to decide whether to consider Orthodoxes a historically oppressed minority or evil Christian bigots that need to be crushed. I’ve seen more than a few TV panels and articles where some leftist journalist invites an Orthodox priest to discuss migrants, LBGT activism and female priests, expects that a MINORITY automatically sympathizes with poz and then gets shocked to encounter a confident Christian for the first time in his life.
Still, converting the whole population to Orthodoxy would do no good as then the subversives would switch their focus to infiltrating the Orthodox church which they so far have mostly ignored. The poz and globalism has to be confronted head-on instead of trying to anchor national culture to some bureaucratic organization because this is an enemy that specializes in organizational takeover.
Polish Perspective above writes
Heard the same idea recently from a young Polish guy, telling me that the biggest mistake in Polish history was aligning with the Vatican
In the 1500s Poland was the most ‘liberal’ place in Europe, with Polish kings declaring freedom of religion, and Protestants & even Unitarians (anti-Trinity, Jesus was not ‘god’) found a home there … but in the 1600s the Vatican and Jesuits got Poland to terminate that ‘freedom’ stuff
It’s notable that amidst current Israel – Poland controversy over Poland’s new law forbidding claims that Poles helped kill Jews … that Poland’s government is quite Jewish at the top
Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Jakub Morawiecki, is of Jewish heritage although nominally Christian … Polish President Andrzej Duda is married to ‘25% Jewish’ Agata Kornhauser-Duda … Polish opposition leader Kaczynski, brother of the suspiciously-killed-in-plane-crash earlier Polish president, was very pro-Jewish going back decades, the Kaczynski brothers said by some Poles to have Jewish roots with family name ‘Kalkstein’
And as with Putin, Poland’s leader is tied up with Mossad’s Chabad … here a photo of Polish President Andrzej Duda & his Jewish wife Agata Kornhauser-Duda, receiving a Hanukkah menorah from Chabad Rabbi Shalom Ber Stambler
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/384a8351cfb7620f255d086e7fac0596fb14d36869f340e09c7ff0af6081b45f.jpg
Protestant churches have tended to be intimately tied with an ethnic group
Hmmm. Church of England, Dutch Reformed Church, Lutheran bodies in Germany and Scandinavia – etc. All a mess. The minority Lutheran sects in the U.S. (LCMS and WELS) are among the healthiest of protestant bodies institutionally; AFAIK, they were not founded as ethnic bodies. Some of those in the pedigree of the main body of American Lutheranism (ELCA) were ethnic denominations).
If it’s the ex-USSR, a lot of those new churches may have been in Ukrainian territory.
My impression is that the Polish Catholic Church, like the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, is rather nationalistic. Am I wrong?
Here are a bunch of Greek Orthodox priests at a torch parade in Ivano-Frankivsk at :40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MV–tjuqJY
Are there any statistics on the racial composition of the Orthodox church? I get that Muslim implies Central Asians (as in racially Asiatic), but surely there would have a substantial number of Central Asians that would also have converted through the centuries.
An Orthodox mass tends to be rather longish, about 3 hrs. In the parts of Poland occupied by the Russian Empire before 1918, there were Russians, and when their priest intoned a prayer for their royals, beginning with the Nick, before they got to the last and least one it was already evening, a shocking 5 hours or more. They literally prayed to the Czar, and had his icons in church. It had to give when Lenin showed up.
No matter how nationalistic those marches look and sound, if you are marching to make your nation into a cuckservative EU/US puppet – you are not nationalist. They may as well have been marching with Obama posters, rainbow flags and pink hats, because that will be the end result of their foolishness.
Reading Kevin Macdonald’s second book on the early Christians is a real eye opener. The Church used to be very nationalistic in Britain, only echoes of that in some of the Protestant sects in Northern Ireland. Mostly the Church of England is a homosexual organisation now, with all the degeneracy that implies. Might see a revival in Christianity if they actually spoke out on issues.
I would like to see that – a universal religion for all the Slavs. Although I am not big on religion, I would like to see one that unites the Slavs replacing the ones that divide them now.
Whoever it was that said it (I think it’s attributed to Lenin) “Religion is opium for the mases” was right, but not in the original sense it was meant.
Religion doesn’t create tranquility and peace – it creates delusions. Polish are great example of this. They see Catholicism both as equalizer and surpasser – it equalizes them with the great civilized west (I can’t stop laughing at that one), and makes them surpass the “inferior” Orthodox from the east.
Catholicism doesn’t manage to accomplish either of those 2 tasks for the Polish – it neither makes them “equal” to the west, nor does them make better than the orthodox east.
Catholicism itself is not an accomplishment – any idiot can be a catholic – in fact many are. That’s probably the only thing that I am pissed off at the Jews – that they made such a big deal out of religion – their religion, and then all the other morons followed them making a big deal out of their religions to prove that they are not less worthy.
They are all state churches, more or less which makes more vulnerable than other churches.
How so, does he claim Christianity is a Jewish plot? Or that it was corrupted by Jews?
They don’t even manage to speak out against Islam which shouldn’t be that hard from a Christian perspective, so it’s pretty hopeless imo. Personally I think the mainstream churches in Western Europe are moribund, they’ll be deservedly crushed between anti-clerical nationalism and their Islamic “friends”. Maybe some traditionalist Catholic sects and Evangelicals will do somewhat better though. But I have no doubt that my generation (born in the 1980s) will be the last one with formal membership in the established churches as the default.
@Polish perspective, Cyrano: You guys almost sound like this could be something for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_Native_Faith
Personally I regard such efforts as rather futile (though I feel some sympathy for them).
I doubt this.
Old churches have been opened up for services, though many in the provinces are in urgent need of restoration (when I was in Volokolamsk I chatted with some repairmen who had finally been paid to restore a crumbling 19th century church for future exploitation).
https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/962764069840343041
http://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/housing-construction-russia-ukraine-in-2014.png
Is there a reason to expect churches would be an upwards exception to that?
Not only is construction much more vigorous in Russia, but church construction is something that the state seems to actively promote (though it is the one big mosque that everyone focuses on).
However, it appears that West Ukraine – the most religious part of Ukraine – had far more churches per capita than the rest of the USSR (see the jump c. 1945) anyway, having mostly escaped the Leninist/Stalinist anti-religious campaigns, so it might not have even needed to make up that much “lost ground” after 1991.
(In Russia) Christians are of course overwhelmingly Russian, as are the people who identify as Belarusians and Ukrainians in Russia.
Going from memory, something like 20% of Tatars are Christians. There would have been many more of them, perhaps even a majority, but Christian Tatars tend to dissolve into Russians much more readily than Muslim ones.
However, there are extremely few Central Asian Christians.
Orthodoxy is practiced by Yakuts, as well as part of the Siberian natives (in addition, American Aleuts, and part of Alaskan Eskimos with Indians). But all this (except the Yakuts) small people
Religion of the Tatars: red christianity, gray atheism and theism, blue paganism , green islam.
http://www.imageup.ru/img53/2958610/417773_original.jpg
Islam – 56%
However, only 3% of Tatars consider themselves Sunni, and 1% consider themselves Shiia. The rest are Muslims in name only. That is the real Muslims among Tatars – about 4%.
But its irrelevant to the “racial composition” – the Tatars are quite “white”
http://ruspekh.ru/images/articles/48330/2017_11_23-027-05_001.jpeg
They are far more nationalistic than you (or I ) will ever be.
Sure. The place where my in-laws have their dachas has a very impressive brand-new wooden and gold church. But given greater religiosity in Ukraine, it may be that a disproportionate number of those news churches in the ex-USSR are not being built in Russia.
The chart was from 2014, the middle of Maidan, when a lot of things stopped. I don’t know about other figures for construction and don’t have time to look, but that particular chart probably isn’t representative.
Devout people will build churches even if they are poor, however. This is a new church under construction in Transcarpathia, the poorest region in Ukraine:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iG5rmEAd_UE/VCr7uoVqw5I/AAAAAAAADgI/1rHF9dVyqE4/s1600/DSCI2505.JPG
I’m not saying you are wrong, I just suspect there’s been disproportionately more church-building after the Commie repression ended in Ukraine, where religion was more genuinely repressed (that is, more of the population was religious and felt limited – most Russians didn’t give a damn) and thus there was more pent-up demand for more churches.
To be a real nationalist you need to love and defend a real nation. Not a regional identity, artificially elevated into a fake national one by westerners, communists and useful idiots.
So by definition, Ukrainians cannot be real nationalists.
Just a friendly reminder: the author Cyrano is from a Slavic-speaking Balkan nation with about 20% Slavic descent (about as Slavic as an European-language speaking African-American is European). His criticisms of actual Slavs (Poles, Ukrainians, etc.) and intrusions into squabbles between actual Slavs ought to be viewed with this in mind.
Most “real nations” can be reduced to being someone’s regional identity.
If you are on the same side that has the likes of Soros or McCain involved, then you are not nationalistic, not even a trace amount. At the very best one can forgive these people for outright stupidity, they are clearly happy with having jews like Poroshenko being their president though.
100% agree. One of the big mosques I go to for Friday prayers in my area is one of the bigger and beautiful ones and is well known that most of the people who sacrificed to build it were simple people; taxi drivers, etc.
Peace.
How so, does he claim Christianity is a Jewish plot? Or that it was corrupted by Jews?
LOL
So Churchill was a Stalinist and not a nationalist during World War II? Hitler wasn’t a real nationalist in 1939-1941?
Poroshenko is not Jewish, it’s a myth.
And the torch-marchers likely don’t support him, anyways.
It was a serious question, there are people who believe that after all (I don’t agree). Since I haven’t read MacDonald and only know that his work is all about Jews, I’d like to know what’s his position on that issue.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/03/churches-disaster-funds-fema-religion-establishment-321202
Your hot takes continue to amaze me. If you are calculating that by the percentage of R1a1 then Ukraine and Poland are still only 50% Slavic, and 50% non-Slavic. Your knowledge of genetics is as good as that of history I must say.
White nationalists generally do not accept Churchill as a hero or a nationalist, his main driver was to protect the British Empire (which like a Greek tragedy he ended up destroying), he cared very little for the common British man.
As for the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, it was clear on both sides that it was a pact of convenience, they both knew that sooner or later they were going to war with each other. Say what you want about Hitler, but no one could ever seriously doubt that he was true nationalist.
Hitler was an autistic retard, but nobody can deny that he was a real nationalist. And he has fans in Ukraine, flashing swastikas and runes, etc. However that does not make them real nationalists too.
Imagine if Hitler was a follower of the Ukrainian School of Nationalism:
Instead of fighting the Jews he will openly give them control over everything, and also invite a few unrelated foreigners from remote countries to complete this patriotic reform.
Instead of putting the economy back on its feet he would re-create a new Weimar republic in Austria even while Germany tries to put those days forever behind.
At least he would not invade the USSR, instead doing everything possible for Austria to join it, all the while claiming that he is totally against it.
And this is why all the nationalistic optics in the world do not make Ukrainians “nationalists”.
You need to know where you are coming from and where you are going, especially if you are a nationalist -when you perceive yourself as part of a people and its history, a continuation of your ancestors, then it is pretty important to know who those ancestors were, what their history was, and who are the children of those ancestors – your nation – today.
Sg Heil to that, my brother. If I am going to ask anyone’s permission whether I should belong to the Slavic club – I am going to ask the Russians, not you pieces of st. Although I don’t need anyone’s permission. What I feel like is what I am. But, nice try, a**hole. How are the racial purity theories working for your wonderful nation? Surging in prosperity, perhaps? Beacon of hope for all the Slavs to follow? I think not.
OT: Hundreds of Russian mercenaries of “Wagner group”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group
were allegedly killed in American air and artillery strike in Syria. Both Russian and Ukrainian social networks are abuzz, and the news is filtering into West media too.
https://www.unian.info/world/2389337-us-reportedly-kill-more-than-100-russian-syrian-backed-fighters-in-3-hour-military-blitz.html
http://world.24-my.info/girkin-in-the-defeat-pmc-wagner-in-syria-100-sure-sorry-to-hear-about-the-senseless-death-of-many-comrades-in-donbass/
100 % fake news, or is there anything behind it?
As far as I remember, his position is that while obviously Christianity started out as a Jewish sect, after its membership became overwhelmingly gentile, it became heavily anti-Jewish. Church leaders saw themselves as leaders of the Christian community in opposition to or at least in competition for resources with non-Christians, and since ancient paganism was seen on the decline and going extinct anyway (pagans were either converting or not having many children), this meant by late antiquity predominantly Jews. He quotes Church Doctors’ anti-Jewish tirades extensively.
50% R1A is Slavic baseline for R1A.
Balkan “Slavs” are about 20% Slavic, by origin. Spanish-speaking Mestizos (40% European) are twice more Spaniards, than Slavic-speaking Balkan peoples are Slavs.
Specific studies of Slavic genetics followed. In 2007 Rębała and colleagues studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland.[77] The significant findings of this study are that:
Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya.[78]
However, Southern-Slavic populations including the Bosnians, Croats (excluding north-western Croatia), Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by “… contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs …”[78]
It is not yours to ask and nobody’s to give.
You are not one of us by descent. Too bad. Acting like a Slav “nationalist” doesn’t change that, it just makes you funny, like an African-American skinhead.
Thanks. Doesn’t really sound that different from mainstream views as far as describing what happened is concerned (I suppose differences are more in emphasis and value judgements).
A squabble among some Slavs is who is more Slavic? As someone sympathetic to a pan-Slav and Slavophile outlook (while recognizing some problematical complexities with that sentiment), I get put off when hearing some of the tripe out there.
Slavs have different non-Slav mixes among them. A good number of Serbs can’t help but have some Turk in them. I’ve heard the Slavic identity of the Bulgarians second guessed – despite many of them looking quite Slavic. When compared to eastern Slavs, more western Slavs have (for understandable reasons) more mixing with western non-Slavs. It has been said that many Ukrainians have dark features on account of Ukraine’s geographic closeness to Tatars and Turks, with northern Russians geographically closer to Scandinavia. Russians of course having a share of Tatars living among them throughout much of history.
Be wary of genetic statistics being quoted. How exact are they? Do they conflict with other such stats? What’s the motivation behind some of that testing.
You are right man, it makes so much more sense to be Ukrainian skinhead, because it puts you in the same league with your aryan brothers. How did those aryan brothers threat you in WW2? Not so good? Don’t feel bad about it. Everybody treats you the same – the Russians did, Stalin did, the Germans and now the Americans. Do you see a pattern emerging there? You know what’s the reason why you get treatments like that? Because you are stupid.
Says who? I say that your nation should have at least 88% R1a1 to be considered Slavic. Therefore Slavs don’t actually exist.
Also Hitler was neither white nor German, being E1b1b. Ukrainian intellectuals have confirmed this.
mDNA does not exist or matter and each nation and ethnic grouping consists of a single Y-DNA haplogroup.
Also your continuous comparisons with niggers and mestizos (well can’t be helped, we are talking about Ukrainians after all) are funny as you apparently consider mixing different European ethnic groups to produce the same genetic distance as mixing different races.
By the way how do you feel about the fact that Bulgarians have 11% R1b while Ukrainians have only 2.2% – we are 5 times more Western than you, which of course means better and whiter by the way.
Ah yes, Ivan Vladimirov’s classic article: https://sputnikipogrom.com/russia/74844/rebuilding-tatarstan/
What is it with you Slavs?
In the words of that great American, Rodney King, “I just want to say – you know – can we all get along? Can we, can we get along?”
Valid point, but…
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/ffedd_ya/2278186/18215/18215_original.png
Central Ukraine is religious, but not more religious than, say, Russia’s Black Earth region (the most religious Russian area), which has a comparable population. Novorossiya-Ukraine is not very religious at all.
Well, either Slavs don’t exist or they do not. Do they?
If they do, then Balkan peoples are mostly not Slavic by descent.
Slavic homeland is around Belarus/Ukraine/Polish border. These peoples, and Russians, have around 50% R1A. More peripheral Slavs, such as Czechs have a little less.
We are talking about population percentages.
According to Lynn, Balkan peoples have about African American level of IQ.
https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country
Those are small numbers.
But certainly not Slavic.
The Church fathers were militantly anti Jewish, like Jesus or Luther, and much of the popularity of the church was due to the perception they were standing up for gentiles winning many converts. Of course the early church was ferociously persecuted by the Jewish power structure.
Is MacDonald published in Germany? I know he won’t visit as he risks arrest.
I don’t think his work has been translated, but he’s definitely read by some Germans on the nationalist/identitarian right, I’ve seen him referenced in German language fora (and not even “extreme” ones).
And I doubt he’d be facing arrest in Germany, he isn’t a Holocaust denier if I understand correctly, so I don’t think anything he’s written or said could be relevant for legal prosecution.
Well yes, but that was the very early church, in the 1st century or so. At that time it was more of an intra-Jewish conflict than anything else.
I don’t blame him for not carrying out the experiment, though.
Jerome, Chrysostom and most of the church fathers were 4th and 5th century.
Should I put sarcasm tags for you like they do in plebbit (another high IQ community by the way, much like the Ukraine).
And the Bulgar homeland was in modern day Ukraine. Neither Ukrainians nor Bulgarians have any statistically significant Bulgar genetic heritage by the way.
According to Lynn the Irish have an IQ of 92 and the Ukrainians – 97. That says pretty much everything about Lynn’s credibility.
Ukraine which is literally worse than a number of African countries both economically and socially should not really talk about African or African-American level IQs to be quite frank.
If you truly think that African-Americans and say, Serbs (IQ 89 according to Lynn!) have the same intelligence then you must truly be an Ukrainian intellectual.
Nigger, the written Slavic culture literally started here, in the First Bulgarian Tsardom. The Cyrillic alphabet. The first formalized Slavic language “Old Church Slavonic” was actually old Bulgarian. If Bulgarians are not Slavic (and Russians are also suspect even though they have the R1a percentage, they are still too different from the pure Ukrainians, and probably Asiatic too – t. Mutton) then you should pick another ethno-linguistic grouping for the Neo-Khazarian Khaganate a.k.a. the Ukraine.
Sure, but you could say the same about France or the UK, and maybe with more reason. My impression is German courts go really crazy about anything that looks remotely like glorification of Nazism (and the laws in this regard are ridiculous, e.g. you get prosecuted for showing the Nazi salute, regardless of context or intent) or Holocaust denial. Regarding prosecution for antisemitism, “racism”, “incitement to hatred” etc. in general Germany is bad, but hardly more so than other Western states with their pc authoritarianism.
I know, but at that time Christians weren’t persecuted anymore by Jews or pagans, but had instead become persecutors themselves. Jews oppressing Christians belongs more to the earliest times of the church (e.g. the martyrdom of the deacon Stephen), and then it was basically a conflict between mainstream Judaism and a new breakaway sect. Later on, opportunities for Jews to harm Christians must have been very limited (and almost non-existent after Constantine’s conversion).
Be careful what you wish for as the neopagan movement in Poland is rabidly anti-German, if they started to incorporate the burning of effigies of Henry the Lion and Albert the Bear into their fire jumping rituals, no one should be surprised. They remind me of the Communist government which promoted the distrust and hatred of the anti-Slavic nemesis- Germany, while simultaneously encouraged the love of our Russian “brothers”. They are extremely anti Catholic, and while claiming to be pagans they somehow embrace and look favorably upon the Russian Orthodox Church. The KGB was tub-thumping neopagan ideas in the 70s, and many in the Orthodox hierarchy were KGB assets, if not outright agents, is there a link in there? It seems that just like Moscow was to be the capital of international communism, it should be the center of Slavic neopaganism now. I don’t know how much traction they have, but they mix some weird Hindu beliefs in, and seem to be fraudsters and con men to me, they bow down to Moscow, and can’t get over Poland’s being Catholic.
Interesting, thanks for the warning 🙂
In general I regard people who are really into this neopagan stuff as demented fools, it’s just that I can understand their motives to some degree.
Religion is about truth not about your idiotic Ersatz for religion in the form of nationalism
Churchill’s main driver was to protect Winston Churchill’s political career.
He was keen to turn Britain into a US vassal state (remember that Churchill was half-American anyway). Churchill did a great deal to destroy Britain as a genuine sovereign nation. He was one of the most catastrophically destructive figures in British history.
He also played a major role in manoeuvring Britain into the First World War. A selfish malevolent drunkard.
No, it was int he Don area, with parts of southeastern Ukraine being peripheral.
Yes, Ukrainians are Slavs and Bulgarians are Balkans, kin to Albanians.
Maybe Lynn’s estimate about Ireland was wrong. But his estimate about Balkan Slavs was right.
PISA scores for Balkans match Lynn’s IQ estimates. Balkan “Slav” do about as well at academic tests as African Americans:
https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html
Poland 521
Americans whites 518
Russia 481
Slovakia 472
Hispanic Americans 465
Turkey 462
Bulgaria 440
African Americans 434
So two different data sets match and place Bulgaria in the same place.
LOL. A few oil rich sub-Saharan African nations are richer than Ukraine (some are even richer than Russia, or your Bulgaria). Otherwise no. Balkan “thinking” fails you again. You are very typical.
Not by modern Bulgarians. Cyril may have been a Greek. Some Slavs settled in the Balkans, were eventually absorbed by natives who took that language. Modern Balkans are as Slavic as African Americans are European. About half as Slavic as Mexican Mestizos are Spanish.
Accept who you are – an Albanian, or Thracian, or something like that. I know Russian/Slavic cargo cultism is strong in you.
Russians’ Asian ancestry is minimal. And Balkan peoples still are not Slavs.
If that were the case, Balkan cities would look like Detroit. They don’t, not anywhere in the Balkans. Have you ever been to Detroit? I have; it’s scary in more ways than one. Don’t make claims that are self-evidently stupid.
You gotta point there; does man serve God or does God serve man? Can a God that serves man be taken seriously – the cognitive dissonance in believing in such would seem counterproductive to me.
Peace.
haha! LOL! “a few” = MANY African countries you deliberately lying dipshit. , South Africa ( a basket case with car hijackings,murders and rapes at very high levels) , Nigeria ( the largest by population in Africa and the country most people thinking about when correctly referring to Ukraine as an African-esque country)all the north African countries, Angola, Botswana,Sudan, lesotho and plenty of others covering a huge percentage of the african population that are richer than Ukraine and with no oil contributing to that either….that’s leaving aside the fact that Ukraine fails to be more prosperous than the central Asian ex-soviet states, or even just be more democratic than those same central -asian states that don’t even have any wish to be democratic. What’s more ,given Nigeria’s size and population , the income from oil exported is probably less of a help in proportion, than the oil and gas transit fees that the parasitic Ukraine gets from Russia , yet Nigeria has still achieved far more than the dying Ukraine since 1991. Also no African countries are richer than Russia you moron. Even in healthcare these African countries are surpassing Ukraine, which thanks to years of it being created by and basically a part of Russia….are well educated….which makes their failure even more laughable.
These PISA tests a load of false and spurious garbage , mainly for eye-strained lying cretins as yourself . Nobody seriously thinks Poles are more clever than Russians. At general level …or at elite level. For centuries in art, science, engineering, mathematics,literature,classical music …Russia has been light years ahead of Poland, and those who were successful from Poland tended to be Poles who pretended to be French or spent most of their lives in France.
I know your just a sad spamtroll fuckwit with severe mental problems but this fake LOL, and timewasting garbage is beyond a joke
…errr….practically all the Balkan nations are more prosperous, more democratic, and have more cited academics…than Ukraine does, you idiot
Factors other than stupidity make Detroit the mess that it is. People can be dumb, but nonviolent.
Ukraine GDP PPP per capita $8,272
Nigeria GDP PPP per capita $5,867
Ukraine GDP (nominal) $2,458
Nigeria GDP nominal $2,092
In Nigeria the richest 10% have 17.8 times more wealth the poorest 10%.
In Ukraine the richest 10% have 5.9 times more wealth the poorest 10% (European norm).
Donbas has an HIV rate that approaches Africa, though.
Equatorial Guinea per capita GDP PPP $34,865
Russia per capita GDP PPP $27,890
Equatorial Guinea per capita GDP nominal $11,948
Russia per capita GDP nominal $10,248
Are you a Balkan too? Or pretending to be one.
Three questions, if I may.
-Do you have numbers for vocations? I mean growth in religious vocations. (What about monasteries/monastic life?)
– And info about source of funding? Is it the believers themselves or is the State funding construction?
– Lastly, what do you think is the appeal of Christianity?
LCMS consisted originally of emigrants/immigrants who fled the state imposed “Prussian Church Union” of Lutherans and Calvinists.
Uh, since when are people from the Balkans considered to be non-violent? They are generally considered to be more hot-headed and violent than the northerners, as history shows more than adequately.
When you’re in a hole, stop digging. The more convoluted explanation you try to come up with, the more stupid and absurd it’s going to be.
Just a very brief sample: Balkan countries, even though they were all relatively poor, have had indigenous industries developed in 20th century. Yugoslavia had locally designed and manufactured airplanes in 1930s, Ikarus. Bulgaria also had indigenous aircraft design and production in 1930s, DAR. Romania was the largest oil producer in Europe before WWII. Greece had shipbuilding and shipping since 19th century, and still controls almost a quarter of world-wide shipping. Not to mention construction and arms manufacturing in all of those countries. Certainly not German level of industrial activity, but far from incapable.
How much of this do you find in Detroit or Baltimore?
I work in a large software company on the U.S. west coast. In engineering/programming roles, there are way more people from Eastern Europe/Balkans than there are American Blacks. In per capita terms, it would be ridiculous to even compare.
There is plenty of evidence that the Balkan Slavs are smart. But there is zero evidence about Ukrainian “intelligence”.
Take the Bulgarians for example. In WW2 they were nominal allies of Germany – yet not one single Bulgarian died on the eastern front and not one single Bulgarian Jew was handed over to their ally Germany. How clever is that?
In fact Israel praised Bulgaria for that – for not betraying their Jewish population. While you stupid c*nts threw everybody under the bus – the Jews, the Russians and in the end yourselves. That’s how smart you are.
The Bulgarian motto in WW2 was: “Always with Germany, never against Russia”. And the reason why they always have to be allies with Germany is not their fault either. For that one I actually blame the Serbs. It’s a long and complicated story and I’ll tell it some other time.
Didn’t they do some pretty nasty things in their occupation zone in Greece though?
Do tell.
After Bulgaria achieved its independence (thanks to Russia), the Western powers were edgy about having an additional pro-Russian state. A certain Congress was setup to offset that. Upon its inception, the modern late 19th century Bulgarian monarchy, was (if I’m not offhand mistaken) ethnic German.
I’m aware of the differences between Serbs and Bulgarians which (if I’m not offhand mistaken) extend for a period prior to the early 20th century. Yet, both these peoples are generally pro-Russian. Over the years, I’ve had numerous contacts with Bulgarians in the age 30 and over groupings. I’ve yet to run into anyone of them not being pro-Russian. I’ve experienced pretty much the same with Serbs as well.
In the now former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia, Bulgarian troops were involved in the rounding up of Jews. I’m not aware that they knew for sure the eventual fate of these Jews. I’m of the impression that the Bulgarians themselves had no direct involvement in the actual killing of Jews, as well as any concentration camp involvement.
Well yes, but not everything is about Jews (even if one can get the impression on Unz review)…iirc the Bulgarians terrorized the Greek population in their occupation zone because they wanted to Slavicize the area:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_occupation_of_Greece#The_Bulgarian_occupation_zone
Interesting regional dynamics relating to history for sure.
Reminded that Bulgarians and Romanians (from what I’ve been told by multiple sources) aren’t so fond of each other. In comparison, Serbs and Romanians get along comparatively better, as do Serbs and Greeks.
Nobody said that Bulgarians are not pro-Russian. In the late 19th century Bulgaria was known as “Prussia” of the Balkans – with the most powerful military.
In 1885 Bulgaria invades Serbia and only the Austro-Hungarian intervention (imagine that) saved the Serbs from total disaster. Since then, the Serbs cultivated grudges against Bulgaria – culminating in the Balkan wars – when the Serbs stabbed the Bulgarians in the back.
Most of the fighting in the 1st Balkan war was done by the Bulgarians and the Serbs – in that order, yet when it came to divide the spoils of the war, the Serbs sided with Greece and stabbed the Bulgarians in the back. One of the most epic betrayals of Slavs by Slavs ever.
Also the most colossal mistake the Serbs have ever made. Since then, the Bulgarians have been forced to always choose Germany as an ally (WW1 and WW2), because the Germans were the only ones willing to offer the Bulgarians what they wanted – redress of the injustice that the Bulgarians suffered in the Balkan wars.
The Balkan wars made it impossible for both Serbs and Bulgarians to be allies of Russia, because it forces Russia to play favorites. Who do you pick as you favorite between Serbia and Bulgaria?
Impossible choice. Can’t offend the Serbs and give Bulgarians what was stolen from them in the Balkan wars. So it forces Bulgaria to seek alliances elsewhere – Germany. Bulgarians are true Slavs – their heart is in the right place, they are not anti-Serb or anti-Russian. It was just a strategic mistake on the part of the Serbs.
During the Cold War, Yugoslavia was run by a Red Habsburg who like Hitler, was a corporal on the side of the Central Powers in WW I.
I’m sure the Serbs have a counter reply to some of what you say. Notwithstanding, I’d like to see the two bury the hatchet.
There is no love lost between Greeks and Bulgarians. And again, I don’t blame the Bulgarians.
Unfortunately yes. It’s not as bad as in the West, but it is getting there. Catholics ultimately have to look to the Vatican for their doctrine and as the Vatican drifts further and further into ultra-liberalism, so too inevitably must the Polish branch. We are resisting, but you can’t fight direction of the boat you are in if you’ve agreed to be transported by the captain, you can at best only slow down the journey.
The Polish Catholic Church is issuing proclamations that “patriotism is good but nationalism is Ebil!!1!”. This is essentially code for “civnat is fine, ethno-nationalim is not”. You don’t need a Church for that, which is why young people are dropping out of it as well. There are plenty of good local priests but the leadership is largely rotten.
Given the intense relationship between Catholicism and Polish identity, this is a major problem for us. The “bright” side is increasing atheism. Some think that increasing religious liberalism will inevitably spill over into other areas, but as I’ve argued in the case of the Czech Republic, it’s possible to be atheist and pro-gay marriage but have hardline views on immigration and the need for a homogeneous identity. Russia is increasingly conservative on religion, yet has moved into further and further liberalism on immigration. So I don’t really think the “domino theory2 holds up.
Nevertheless, religion is important for national identity in the long run, which is why I’d strongly be in favour in moving towards the Slavic Orthodox Bloc, but saying this in Polish nationalist circles is tantamount to heresy. But hey, someone’s gotta take the heat for saying what needs to be said, no matter how unpopular. Catholicism is a dying religion and its corpse can no longer be hidden from plain sight. This should have been obvious since Vatican II, but having a Polish pope publicly defy the occupying force solidified the Polish conception of the link between our identity and Catholicism for generations, and delayed a much-needed reckoning with it.
I had an excellent undergrad European history professor, who in one class went thru why different European nations in (general) like and dislike others on their continent.
Regarding another recent comment at this thread, Slavic Catholics are far from united. Circa 1970s, there was a US based pan-Slav org that had issues among its elements. I wish I saved their bulletins. I’ll try finding some info on them.
The Russian Orthodox Church actively discourages and shames people who “attend church”.
In modern Russia ‘attending church’ without doing the whole traditional weekly cycle of fast/confession/eucharist is considered sacrilegious. There’s nothing like that in the Catholic Church. (And of course Protestants don’t even have the concept of sacraments.)
I don’t really see why actually, why does one need a uniform religious culture for national identity? They don’t have that in Japan as far as I understand (instead a mixture of Shinto, Buddhism and all manner of strange sects, with religion being important, but not that central to people’s self-conception) and they seem to be doing fine with their national identity.
Besides, such an instrumental view of religion strikes me as contradictory and unworkable in the long term…obviously I disagree with Gert and Talha on most things regarding religion, but they’re right imo regarding the issue of truth in revealed religion. Christianity isn’t just a collection of ethics, it makes some very specific claims about the course of history, mankind’s place in it etc. If you don’t really believe that Christ is the way, the truth and the life, what would be the point in pretending to do so? For “family values” (not at the core of Christianity imo anyway, just look at Luke 14:26) or some vague, but ultimately meaningless sense of tradition?
“Mainstream Judaism” didn’t exist in the earliest times of the Church.
Mainstream Judaism is inseparable from the Talmud, which came about no earlier than the third century.
Before that, there’s no reason to consider Christians any less a “real” Judaism than the pharisee schools they fought against.
Cyril did not create the Cyrillic alphabet, you illiterate Ukrainian peasant. It was named so in his honor when it was created in the Preslav literaly school by Bulgarians.
Who are the same Bulgarians as today. You can’t disagree with that and then claim that you yourself have anything in common with old Rus.
You really seem to be needing those sarcasm tags, big brain nibba. Of course Russians’ Asian ancestry is minimal (not that there would be anything wrong with having such ancestry but that’s another topic) however that is not the position of most Ukrainian nationalists, who think of themselves as “true slavs” and of Russians as “Asiatic”. I was also mocking a certain famous quote by general Patton.
We have been calling ourselves Slavs before Russia was established (and 1200 years before Ukraine was established), the Russians use our alphabet and not the other way around, but in any case a fucking Ukrainian talking about cargo cultism is so rich that I don’t really have to respond to this.
Again, race mixing and mixing within the European race (yes, we do have a lot of Thracian blood) does not produce the same genetic distance, it’s not even remotely the same. Why do you even bother talking when you obviously don’t even have a basic idea of genetics and biology?
Here is one dataset where Bulgaria is ahead of Denmark, the Netherlands, Canada, Australia, Germany, Austria… The results of which I have actually doubted on AK’s blog but it’s a dataset still.
https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/pirls-2016-achievement.jpg
Science>anectotal evidence, but at the same time you can’t have science without personal experience. Otherwise you become like the “Russia experts” in the west who don’t even speak Russian.
If you think that Balkan Slavs have anything in common with Albanians or that we are not as smart as Ukrainians (LOL!) then you have obviously never been to the Balkans.
Anyway to be honest I have no problem with Ukrainian nationalism since every nation was born at some point, as long as you admit that your history starts in 1990 or at best in 1919 and you stop claiming that you are the real descendants of Rus and the Russians are not. Which is what Ukrainian nationalists claim.
With one caveat – modern Cyrillic is “civil font” which was originally introduced in Russia by Peter the Great (this font was later borrowed by Serbs, Bulgarians, etc.).
http://images.myshared.ru/6/578985/slide_8.jpg
That is, the Russians borrowed their alphabet from the Bulgarians and modernized it. And then the Bulgarians borrowed a modernized alphabet from the Russia.
Yes, that is of course true and it only reinforces my point that the connections between our peoples are old and genuine and calling that “cargo cultism” is absurd.
If you don’t really believe that Christ is the way, the truth and the life, what would be the point in pretending to do so?
Because if everyone that you care about believes, and you decide that a communitarian perspective is more valuable than a hyper individualistic one, you could fake it for the benefit of the group. If one knows that God does not exist, what is the downside to pretending that he does?
Serbia’s homicide rate is 1.13 and Bulgaria’s is 1.80. They are less violent than American whites.
So yes, these people are nonviolent in day to day life despite being, in general, of low intelligence.
African-Americans don’t have their own country so we cannot compare. But Mexico had its own aircraft manufacturer, Talleres Nacionales de Construcciones Aeronáuticas.
Anecdotes. I have my own, which contradict yours. So?
Large-scale data. PISA rankings:
https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html
Finland 529
Poland 521
Americans whites 518
Russia 481
Slovakia 472
Hispanic Americans 465
Turkey 462
Serbia 447
Bulgaria 440
African Americans 434
Albania 395
Lynn’s national IQ estimates for the Balkan peoples matches their PISA performance.
PISA scores and Lynn’s estimate place them in the bottom of Europe, and in the neighborhood of Hispanic Americans and African Americans (slightly higher than the latter)
IQ estimate places them above the Balkans, but below the Russians and Poles (probably because Ukrainians have some Balkan ancestry). Ukraine has produced a lot of chess champions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Muzychuk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassily_Ivanchuk (ranked #2 in the world)
Sounds like professional lackeys. Served the Turks for centuries, then the Germans, then the Russians, now NATO, whoever came along.
Your pattern of trying to make fun of others for things that your own people are famous for (low intelligence, serving stronger neighbors, etc.) continues.
Bulgaria’s literacy rate of 98.4% is the lowest in Europe, after Serbia’s 98.1% and Albania’s 97.6%.
(Ukraine is at 99.8%)
A Balkan calling someone a peasant as if this is a bad thing is very funny. It’s like a Balkan discussing intelligence and literacy.
Encyclopedia Britannica:
“The two early Slavic alphabets, the Cyrillic and the Glagolitic, were invented by St. Cyril, or Constantine (c. 827–869), and St. Methodii (c. 825–884). ”
“They translated the Bible into the language later known as Old Church Slavonic (or Old Bulgarian) and invented the Glagolitic alphabet, a Slavic alphabet based on Greek characters that in its final Cyrillic form is still in use as the alphabet for modern Russian and a number of other Slavic languages.”
Looks like the (probable) Greek Cyril created an alphabet, some of his disciples made one based on his work and named it after him.
It’s cute when someone like you tries to argue something.
Bulgaria is the product of Turkic Bulgars (leaving little genetic trace), Slavic settlers, and natives mixing with each other. They adopted the Bulgar name, Slavic language, but according to genetics are only about 20% Slavic.
The comparison to Mexican Mestizos is apt, although Mestizos are about twice as Spanish by descent as Bulgarians are Slavic by descent.
I don’t know how mixed these populations were in the 9th century. Back then there may have been “purer” Slavic areas, native areas, etc.
And Swedes use the Latin alphabet, this doesn’t mean any real connection to Rome.
Balkan pan-Slavs are the gold standard of cargo cultism, Ukrainians can’t come close to it although they try sometimes.
I know you are kind of slow, given your origins.
We aren’t talking about genetic distance, but whether a people are Slavic or not, and to the degree that they are Slavic. A Mexican Mestizo, being about 40% Spanish, is more Spanish than is a German (who has no Spanish ancestry) despite both the German and the Spaniard being Europeans and thus being genetically closer.
So Balkan Slavs are of about 20% Slavic descent. African Americans are, on average, of 18% European descent. You are as much of a Slav by ancestry as the African American is a European by ancestry. Although you speak a Slavic language, as the African American speaks a European language.
Got it now?
I don’t know about this specific data set, but in others (TIMMS) the Balkan kids were usually several months older than non-Balkan ones – they were tested at the end of the school years, versus at the beginning.
I’ve be vague and say I worked in the medical field with a decent number of Balkan refugees (Serb and Bosniaks, primarily). Nice people, and not much smarter than rural Mexicans. I found this shocking at first. Even people from rural Ukraine were in a different league from these Balkan villagers.
In this case, science matches anecdote. Balkan Slavs at the bottom in Europe, and lower than Ukrainians.
Ukraine was widely used in Galicia in the 19th century. The Ukrainian national identity is simply the renamed Little Russian one. The latter was formulated in the end of the 18th century, around the same time as other modern nationalisms.
I personally have some Rurikid descent but the relationship of Rus to Ukraine and Russia is analogous to the relationship between Charlemagne’s Frankish Empire to Germany or France. Neither modern nation is the same as the old one – it’s simply romanticism.
Russia starts with the fusion of Slavs and Finnic people of northeastern Rus, under Mongol influence, in the 13th century. Ukraine starts with the western Rus people coming under heavy Polish influence starting in the 15th-16th century (first recognizable vernacular Ukrainian language appears in the late 1500s AFAIK).
Minor point: Portugal and Greece also have lower literacy rates than Bulgaria. General point stands.
Again, quite rich coming from an Ukrainian.
The turks conquered the Balkans by military force. There were uprisings and genocides during the centuries, until Russia liberated us.
We did not serve the Germans, we served our national interest. The reason why we were on Germany’s side in both world wars is Macedonia, which is populated by ethnic Bulgarians (currently brainwashed by communists and others in much the same manner as Ukrainians were) and we would have taken it back if Germany won. Still, we did not fight the Russians in WW2 (so much for servitude to the Germans) because they are our brothers.
Even a corrupted version of Russia, like the USSR, is still Russia. When the Russians came in 1944 there was no resistance and in fact were met quite cheerfully. Not from fear or servitude – we actually did fight Russia in WW1 when it invaded Dobruja, Bulgarian land, along with Romania. We won by the way .
Because of our historic, cultural, spiritual and blood ties with Russia, being in their camp is a natural fit for us. So that is as much servitude as you are a servant if you live in the same house with your bigger brother. Yes, now we are in NATO. Only because the Russians left, Bulgaria crumbled along with the communist system and the Americans and other westerners came and filled the vacuum.
Everybody in NATO knows that we cannot be trusted and we will leave as soon as the opportunity arises. The Nazis could not force us to fight Russia and they were a good deal more competent and likeable people than the niggerfaggots and anglokikes at NATO.
If you want to see servitude, look at Ukraine and the West. It’s not even prostitution (something Ukrainians are famous for) because prostitutes actually get something for their service.
You are not tired endlessly to repeat this wild nonsense?
More recent data (2015).
http://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/pisa-2015-results.jpg
Portugal 501
Poland 501
Russia 487
Luxembourg 483
Bulgaria 446
(Ukraine according to Karlin should have about the same as Bulgaria)
But I cannot understand the sacred significance of these tests. Finland is much ahead of Norway and Sweden, but significantly inferior to these countries in the field of Economics and science. Russia is ahead of Luxembourg on tests, but not on salaries. Etc., etc.
A strange comparison. In this case it is necessary to compare with ethnic Russians, but not with Russia as a whole
haha!
More bullshit (probably Wikipedia for you again?). Nigeria is richer….and this is despite having a much less developed manufacturing sector than Ukraine, and a huge part of the country living under Sharia law and or controlled by Bo,ko Haram. Take out these areas and I think the nigerian per capita GDP is double that of Ukraine you prick. Either way, Botswana,Morocco,South Africa,Angola and many more with higher GDP’s
…you want me to go on you stupid retard?
errmm…Ukraine in general has a high HIV rate you idiot……no suprise Donbass is high you moron….it’s the most urbanised and populous part of Ukraine , in fact 6 of the top 7 most populated areas in Ukraine are in novorossiya you POS…because that’s the backbone of the Ukrainian economy, locations of industry and where the people want to live and work…of course they are going to have a higher rate you prick. It’s not going to be a linear relationship between population number and infection you cretin.
hahahahaha!You deliebrately lying scumbag, you trying to imply ( with a straight face?) with your bullshit imaginary “stats” that Ukraine, the most corrupt, failing country in the world has an income
inequality level the same as an average European country! Contemptible POS
Again, the Balkans have higher prosperity and democracy levels..and cited academics than Ukrainians. Then again you’re just some fantasist retard who thinks pretending to be Austrian and Polish some make one this imaginary race called “Ukrainian”…brainless attention-whore prick.
There seems to be a certain “romanticism” with trying to legitimize some analogies.
Not a good comparison regarding Germany and France with Russia and Ukraine. The latter grouping (in overall terms) has been noticeably closer. Germany was united in 1870 and had a strong independent base entity (for lack of a better term) in Prussia. France’s identity as France went back even further.
On the subject of France, Napoleon’s invasion of Russia was assisted with tens of thousands of Poles. In comparison, the descendants of modern day Ukrainians were moistly loyal to Russia. In the late 1840s, Russian forces were warmly received in Galicia upon going to Hungary, when they regretfully assisted the Habsburgites against the Hungarians.
Prince Oleg from Novgorod resettled in Kiev, around the time of the latter day academically termed “Kievan Rus” as in Rus. In turn, Andrey Bogolyubsky had a dynastic claim to the Kiev throne, when he settled in the Suzdal area – not too far from Moscow. His later spat with Kiev was more akin to the US Civil War (recall Sherman’s destruction of Atlanta) than some outside foreign invader as wrongly suggested by some modern day Ukrainian nationalists.
Offhand, I’m not aware of any 19th century French or German literary figure having a joint Franco-German connection as Gogol relative to Russia and Ukraine.
The main Lutheran and Calvinist bodies are a mess in the U.S. as well. The was never a Lutheran establishment on this continent, there hasn’t been a Dutch Reformed establishment here since the British took Manhattan in 1660, and (if I’m not mistaken) the only descendant of the old Puritan establishments is the United Church of Christ.
Agreed.
“When one gives up the Christian faith, one pulls the right to Christian morality out from under one’s feet. This morality is by no means self-evident: this point has to be exhibited again and again, despite the English flatheads. Christianity is a system, a whole view of things thought out together. By breaking one main concept out of it, the faith in God, one breaks the whole: nothing necessary remains in one’s hands. Christianity presupposes that man does not know, cannot know, what is good for him, what evil: he believes in God, who alone knows it. Christian morality is a command; its origin is transcendent; it is beyond all criticism, all right to criticism; it has truth only if God is the truth — it stands and falls with faith in God. When the English actually believe that they know “intuitively” what is good and evil, when they therefore suppose that they no longer require Christianity as the guarantee of morality, we merely witness the effects of the dominion of the Christian value judgment and an expression of the strength and depth of this dominion: such that the origin of English morality has been forgotten, such that the very conditional character of its right to existence is no longer felt.”
Nietzsche folks, Nietzsche…
http://www.praxeology.net/twilight3.htm
I’m sometimes amazed that this is even being argued about at this point when he hashed it out decades ago.
Peace.
This thread went to shit not least due to my efforts as I have not actually posted anything on topic here, so I promise this is my last post.
Imagine the purest Slav that ever lived. He marries a black woman and has a child, which is 50% Slavic by your thought process if one can charitably call it that.
Then imagine someone with one Slavic, one German, one Irish and one Italian grandparent.
Assume both children are Slavic culturally. By your “logic” though the mulatto is more slavic than the white mutt, because he is 50% Slavic while the other guy is only 25%.
This is what you claim with your continued inept comparisons to mestizos and african-americans and how they are as European as Bulgarians are Slavic.
Yes, you aren’t, because you quite literally in this case don’t even know what you are talking about.
As you implied that balkanites are on the level of Mexicans earlier, which implies familiarity with said mexicans, and wewuzing that you ” personally have some Rurikid descent” I would make a guess that you are some diaspora in America. In which case you don’t know anything not even about Ukraine, much less about anyone else in the world. It would really explain all your inadequate statements and your continued analogies to Zambos and whatever else El Monstruo de la Americanas you have there.
That is literally what I said though…. And those disciples were Bulgarian, in the Preslav Literaly School located and financed in Bulgaria.
The Bulgarian origin of Cyrillic is not controversial in any scientific circle, including Russian ones.
And incidentally the percentage of gypsies is highest in Europe .
Makes sense from a mathematical perspective. I don’t have a dog in this fight, but right now, if Slavic identity is judged from genetics, then the 50% guy wins. If the question is; who is more European? Then the other guy wins.
Peace.
No, it’s not.
Case in point, cholera.
Ukraine: Ukraine reports 14 cholera cases … and 0 dead.
Africa: Africa cholera 2008 .jpg
Dark red: More that 10,000 cases
Red: Between 10,000 and 5,000 cases
Light red: Less than 5,000 cases
Hatch lines: More than 5% case fatality rate
Irish (French, German..) has much more of the same genes (with “Slav”) than African. This is from a purely genetic point of view, the white guy wins both “competitions.”
Nigera. LOL.
Water supply in Nigeria:
Water supply in Ukraine:
A month!
Bonus: Nigerian Children Deemed Witches Tortured
OK – so I guess Slave doesn’t really have hard genetic component to it then or is fairly amorphous. Fine with me, like I said – I don’t have a dog in the fight. I wonder why so many people were killed over this in WW2 – seems fairly silly.
Peace.
Karlin made that statement when he looked at TIMMS scores and aw Bulgarian score similar to the Ukrainian one, before I pointed out that the Bulgarian kids were about 8 months older than the Ukrainian ones (that is, they were tested at the end of the school year, Ukrainians at the beginning, to produce a similar score).
Genetic similarity is not the same as descent.
“By my thought process.”
If what way is someone with one Slavic parent not of 50% Slavic descent? Balkan-thinking? Is there a special math in the Balkans?
You have proven how slow you are. Things need to be explained several times for you. It’s not your fault, I know.
He is clearly of more Slavic descent. Perhaps you never learned that 50> 25?
The 1/4 Slavic guy will look more like a Slav. He will be genetically closer to the Slav. But he will have less Slavic descent than the half-Slavic, half black guy.
So if an actual Slav such as a Pole, or a Russian, or a Ukrainian has a kid with an African, the half-African child will have more Slavic descent than a full-blooded Bulgarian.
So footballer Stanislav Lebamaba (Russian mother, African father, born in Oryol) is more of a Slav than your people are:
http://region.center/source/OREL/OREL/file_41.jpg
Even though you can pretend better because you look more like a Slav.
This is what makes Balkan Slav pan-Slavists so funny. No matter how you declare your brotherhood to Russians, you are just a wannabe. Don’t get me wrong – you can be useful, if need be.
Truth is easy and requires little effort.
To flesh out the point I was making…
The question is of the identity “Slav” with respect to other identities – and trust me it has an identity along with other European ones – people were killed in the hundreds of thousands over these identities in Europe within living memory of plenty of people. In fact, some Europeans invited dark people from their colonies overseas to help them do the killing.
Now, to take a case in point, say we have a wine – a red wine. Along it we have milk and we have vodka. If you make one drink that is half-wine/half-vodka and one that is half-wine/half-milk then both are still half-wine. The fact that vodka is an alcoholic drink in some kind of a grade in relation to wine or that you would rather drink one concoction versus another is not the question.
Both are half-wine. Does Slav have an identity as separate from German or not? If a person is born from a German and Slavic couple are they half-Slavic or not? We are not talking about “European” identity or race here – I already said the guy wins. If you say “Slav” is amorphous, then fine – what’s the issue? Why splitting hairs – if it’s just how one feels like defining it. Hell, I’m part Slavic because I was a fan of Sergei Federov.
You got that right man. While you, the Ukrainians were always useless for the Slavic “cause”.
Let me explain something, since you are so “big” on math. Half of all Slavs are Russians. So if you are anti-Russian, you can’t be pro-Slav. If you don’t like Russians, you are automatically anti-Slav.
If you don’t like Russians, you can like all the rest of the Slavs combined and you’ll still qualify as anti-Slav. Plus if you don’t like the Russians, there not too many good choices left, are there? Who are you going to like – the Croats? Or you, miserable excuses for human beings?
Even richer coming from a Bulgarian, whose entire history consisted of being a lackey to somebody.
A Balkan who is a cargo-cult pseudo-Slav, who refers to others being “peasants” and discusses “intelligence” or “literacy” is really funny.
No kidding. No major uprisings by Ukrainians, in that case.
Bulgarians served the Turks for about 400 years. They also served the Germans, and the Soviets, and NATO. You state that they are itching to betray NATO and to serve the Russians once again. I don’t doubt it. Serving is what they do best.
Numbers, not so much. Have you figured out that 50 is greater than 25, yet? 🙂
Bandera’s excuse. His case was no worse than yours.
You helped the Germans crush anti-German resistance in the Balkans, and your navy was involved in skirmishes with the Soviet navy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_6_December_1941
On 1 December 1941, several Soviet submarines, including the Shchuka-class Shch-204 (Captain Gricenko), were sent on a patrol along the Axis coastline. On 6 December, Shch-204 was spotted near Cape Emine, 20 miles off Varna, by Bulgarian Arado Ar 196 aircraft. The Bulgarian submarine chasers Belomorets and Chernomorets soon arrived at the scene and together with the aircraft attacked the Soviet submarine with depth charges, soon sinking her with all hands (Shchuka-class submarines had a crew of 38).[4][5][6]
The result of this engagement was the most significant Bulgarian naval victory of the Second World War, and Shch-204 was the only Allied submarine sunk by the Bulgarian Navy. Through this victory, the Bulgarian Navy demonstrated its availability and capability of working together with its German and Romanian counterparts in the Black Sea for the defence of Axis coastlines and convoys
In 1944 Germany was weak, and Bulgarians serve the strong. You didn’t fight alongside the USSR in 1941, did you?
Of course you did. Germany was stronger than Russia. As long as Russia is attacked by someone stronger, Bulgaria will serve the strong.
::::::::::::::
If, hypothetically, Russia and NATO were to decline and Turkey to become strong, how soon before Bulgarians serve Turks again?
How flattering, and amusing, of a myth.
Speaking of religion that can unify all Slavs, there was once such a thing. It was called Communism. It did rule all Slavs, unfortunately not everybody believed in it. I do. Now. Maybe too late.
LOL. Balkans can’t do math, can they.
There are about 133 million ethnic Russians in the world (according to ru-wiki).
55 million Poles, 50 million Ukrainians, 12 million Czechs, 10 million Belarussians, 8 million Croats, 7 million Slovaks, 2.5 million Slovenes.
I do not count Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians.
So 133 million Russian Slavs, 144.5 million non-Russian Slavs.
I am not anti-Russian, though you are too dumb to figure that out. I taught myself Russian, and my kids speak Russian (among other languages).
You, however, are anti-Polish and anti-Ukrainian. That is, you are opposed to the two largest Slavic nations after Russia. You actually celebrate the deaths of millions of Ukrainian Slavs, too, and support the Georgian Slav-killer, Stalin.
You aren’t Slavic yourself, so this is understandable.
There are two actual Slavic peoples in the Balkans: Slovenes, and Croats (half of them ). Let me guess – you hate Croats.
That’s an understandable motivation (the desire not to cause trouble in one’s community or unnecessary hurt to close relatives, friends etc.), but somewhat different imo from a “We need religion for the benefit of our nation” point of view. I just find the latter somewhat cynical and don’t see how one can consciously pretend to believe in supposedly eternal truths just for the sake of group cohesion, that sounds somewhat like an “enlightened” elite manipulating the dumb masses (sort of what neoconservatives are accused of), and I dislike that idea. And more generally, I think religion and politics should be separated as much as possible, mixing the two usually is disastrous,
Here is one of my favorite theories about God. Since he is almighty he can play the history of the world like on a video tape.
God fast forwarded the tape to the 1940’s – saw what an a**holes Ukrainians will turn out to be – the most talented and sadistic kapos in the Concentration camps – among other things – so he decided to pre-emptively punish them by sending Stalin to deal with them.
In other words you deserved your treatment by Stalin by proving yourselves to be a**holes at a later date.
Ever seen the movie: “Minority report”? God – if it does exist – should be able to do the same – punish you before you commit a crime. That’s what happened to you dimwits with Stalin – a right person ahead of his time.
Non-Slavic, Balkan reasoning at work.
Next Balkan war, I say we sell guns and ammo to both sides.You keep cherry-picking the statistics that support your points (we’ll get to that), but you are missing the big point: life is an IQ test. The actual totality of life outcomes beats all statistical sampling that is possible to devise.
Case in point: people in even the poorest and most backwards parts of Europe are capable of organizing relatively pleasant and livable societies and industrial economies. Compare that to Detroit etc. I am not talking just about violence; I am talking about everything simply falling apart and the inability to run a modern society. If you have never been to Detroit go and check it out, otherwise you’ll have no idea what I’m talking about.
But if you want to keep insisting that some number that appeared in Lynn’s book once will give you a better idea of which population is more capable of running a modern society, vs. actually observing which population is in reality running a modern society and which one is not, well, please continue keeping your head in the sand. Your choice.
Now to statistics: nominal GDP per capita data from Wikipedia. We could skip the countries that belong to the EU because that gives them structural advantage, but let’s mention them: Greece ($20,570); Romania ($11,817); Bulgaria ($7,924). Now the countries that are not part of the EU, are landlocked, and have no wealth of natural resources: Macedonia ($5,916); Serbia ($6,052). How about the Ukraine, the country that is not part of the EU, but has access to sea and natural resources: $2,599.
If you think you are so smart, how come you are so poor? Not even half as rich per capita as Macedonia, which has smaller population than Kiev?
I am not trying to prove how smart or dumb Ukrainians are compared to other nations. And if you didn’t try to crap on others by claiming how they are stupid and how you are smart, I wouldn’t have brought it up. But hey, you asked for it. Life is an IQ test, so by your own standard, the fact that the Ukraine is so poor must mean that Ukrainians are really stupid, right?
… somewhat different imo from a “We need religion for the benefit of our nation” point of view.
Well, it seems to me that my peeps are not going to do all that well in the long run if my nation doesn’t do well.
I just find the latter somewhat cynical
It seems cynical to me if you think the only utility to religion is to facilitate control by the elites.
The Bolsheviks thought along those lines.
that sounds somewhat like an “enlightened” elite manipulating the dumb masses (sort of what neoconservatives are accused of), and I dislike that idea.
The elites control and manipulate, that’s what they do and who they are and why they are the elites.
And more generally, I think religion and politics should be separated as much as possible
I guess I still subscribe to this, but I am wavering in my confidence.
The assumption behind modern Christianity seems to be that God serves public opinion. And since public opinion is created (not reflected) by the media then in practice God serves the media. God is kind of like the big TV news anchor in the sky.
Do you know what cherry-picking is? Lynn looked at IQ across countries. PISA looks at academic achievement across countries. These are two comprehensive data sets, independent of each other, calculated by different entities. Both place Balkans at the bottom. You can add a third indicator – literacy.
Cherry-picking would be, for example, looking at one subtest of an IQ-test and comparing. What I have done is not cherry-picking.
I did my residency at DMC so I know the place quite well.
Most African-Americans in the USA do not live in Detroit. Or Flint.
For example, Southfield is 71% Black. Is it terrible? I doubt it is worse than the Albanian parts of Hamtramck.
You’ve already made a mistake. Nominal doesn’t take into account local prices and is a poor measure of quality of life. It is dependent on exchange rates (so, for example, Russia’s nominal GDP has dipped below that of Romania).
The problem here is that Macedonia and Serbia had less communism and a lighter form of communism than did Ukraine, so naturally it would be less screwed up. And Greece skipped communism. So you aren’t comparing apples to apples.
Why did you ignore the one Balkan place that was part of the USSR, just like Ukraine – Moldova?
GDP PPP Ukraine: $8,656
GDP PPP Moldova: $5,657
(lower, incidentally, than Nigeria although Moldova is organized much better and is a more pleasant place)
Now when you compare Romania to Bulgaria or Serbia, you see that Romania is better off than those countries. So it is likely that Moldova is doing better than would be Bulgaria or Serbia, had Bulgaria or Serbia been part of the USSR since 1918 like most of Ukraine was.
Indeed, when western Ukraine was part of Austria-Hungary, in terms of per capita income it was tied with Croatia and Slovakia, and wealthier than all the Balkans other than Croatia. (I am not sure about Russian Empire Ukraine, but the Russian Empire as a whole including Central Asia was wealthier than Serbia and tied with Greece).
Romania has oil
The Ukraine doesn’t participate in PISA, so you don’t get to assign it an arbitrary number you’d like and pretend you’re smarter than, say, Bulgarians.
Lynn’s data is actually cherry-picked (i.e. based on a very limited set in some cases) for many countries (I don’t have the book handy to give you a specific list). His data for the US is solid, as he used US Armed Forces apptitude tests given to recruits since the Korean war. So if someone were to get his hands on similar recruit aptitude tests done in East European militaries over the decades, and re-norm those test into standard IQ tests, then that someone could rightfully claim to have an accurate assesments of the IQ for those countries. Lynn simply doesn’t have that, and neither does anyone else, period.
Therefore no, you don’t get to cherry-pick the data that suits you, which is why I used GDP.
Quality of life was not a topic of conversation, IQ was and is. PPP is subject to how you define the shopping basket, nominal GDP is not. But regardless, let’s use PPP:
Macedonia: $15,977; Serbia: $16,063; Bulgaria: $21,578; Ukraine: $9,125.
So even by PPP GDP you want to use, the Ukraine is a lot poorer than tiny Macedonia that is not part of EU and is landlocked, and doesn’t have the Ukraine’s market size nor the economies of scale.
Because Moldova isn’t a Balkan country. Balkan Peninsula’s northern border is the Danube-Sava-Kupa line. You don’t get to redefine the Balkans to suit your purpose. To many (me included) putting even Romania in the Balkans is a stretch; Moldova is simply out of question. Because if you use the most extensive boundary (a straight line from Monfalcone in Italy to Kherson in the Ukraine), you would include not only Moldova but also Hungary and Italy and the Ukraine. Which is why the universally accepted boundary is the Danube-Sava-Kupa line.
Glad you brought it up. You may be aware that Serbia got bombed by NATO in 1999 for 2.5 months, in the process getting the following destoyed or badly damaged: factories, refineries, bridges, hospitals, TV stations, mines, power plants, etc., etc. The damage caused a 40% drop in GDP and was estimated at 10s of billions of US$. Needless to say, there were no reparations, no Marshall Plan for Serbia.
The Ukraine didn’t go through anything like it during the comparable time period, and has 5 times the population of Serbia and is not landlocked, and is still way poorer by either nominal GDP or PPP.
Since it’s obvious that measured life outcomes are the best estimator of innate capability, by any measure you brought up Ukrainians must be a lot dumber than the Balkan Slavs.
The point is not if I believe that; the point is that you wanted to call other people stupid, so I had to show you that by your own measure you are the stupid one. No need to thank me, just doing a public service.
But it shows the Balkans at the bottom of Europe. It shows them at the level of Mexican Americans and a but higher than African Americans.
Ukraine does participate in TIMMS. On this test Ukrainian kids were tested about 8 months earlier than were Balkan kids, and produced scores that were about the same. That is, a Ukrainian who begins 8th grade knows as much as a Bulgarian who finishes 8th grade.
You ignored the literacy data. Serbia’s literacy rate is 98.1% – one of the lowest in Europe (Albania, Macedonia, Greece, Portugal are lower – guess where most of these are). Ukraine’s is 99.8% – second highest in Europe, tied with Poland.
So we have Lynn’s estimate, plus TIMMS, plus literacy rate, plus the fact that people very similar to Ukrainians (Russians, Belarussians, Poles) all outscore Balkans. To a non-Balkan, the conclusion is obvious.
Do you believe in “magic dirt?”
We are discussing Balkan peoples, not geographic location. Ethnic Germans living in Balkans wouldn’t be considered Balkan peoples. Nor would Slovenes or many Croats (Slavs). Romanians are a Balkan people wherever they live. They are the smartest of the Balkan people, moreover.
The one Balkan people who, like Ukrainians, were part of the USSR – are even poorer than Ukrainians. So even by your silly measure, once we take into account historical circumstances, the Balkans come out on the bottom.
And all of that is a lot less damaging than 70 years of Soviet-style communism, its effect on societal organization, the nature of local elites, and subsequent wealth-building.
It’s a very silly claim of yours.
You must think South Koreans have more innate capability than North Koreans? Do you think they are innately taller too?
When neither Ukrainians nor Balkans peoples were subject to communism, Ukrainians were wealthier than Balkan peoples. For example, in the 1890s Galicia’s per capita GDP in 2010 dollars was $1,947, compared to $1,295 in Serbia.
You will argue that this was because Galicia was part of Austria, and Serbia was not. And then, perhaps, you will come to realize that due to different political circumstances GDP is a stupid measure of intelligence, compared to results of standardized intelligence tests or educational achievement tests that are correlated with intelligence tests.
I was responding to Balkan peoples calling others stupid, which is funny, given that the Balkan peoples have the lowest intelligence in Europe, and I posted evidence of that.
You were too slow to catch that? Well, I suppose you can’t help it.
Exactly!
AP – do you live in Michigan today? If ever in Arizona, I’d like to meet with you…
Not anymore. One of the kids is fond of cactusses for some reason, so we may fly to Arizona sometime to take pictures of the national parks.
Powerful take.
Congratulations AP, you are the official Humpty Dumpty of this blog.
When I discuss intelligence, I refer to IQ and academic achievement test data.
When you discuss intelligence, you refer to GDP and compare Soviet with non Soviet countries.
Obviously you are the Humpty Dumpty of this blog, and are now engaging in the Balkan tradition (on this website) of attributing to others what is true of themselves.
Pisa 2015:
Portugal 501
Poland 501
Sweden 493
Luxembourg 483
Do you seriously think that Portuguese and Polish, is much smarter than the Swedes and Luxembourgers?
Indeed. And Russians were punished by Slav-killer Stalin for Donbas.
A more “realistic” take on the 20th century horrors, if one were in the mood for blasphemy, would be to propose that Serbs (who lost 30% or so of the population) were punished for the regicide of Franz-Ferdinand, the Romanovs were punished for supporting regicidal Serbia, and the peoples of the former USSR were punished for overthrowing the Romanovs and the Church. Stalin and Hitler were simply the instruments of this.
Eight points is not “much” difference. It’s about as much as the difference between African Americans and Bulgarians. Bulgaria is at 446. About almost a 50 point difference from Sweden. Macedonia is 384. Much lower than Mexico’s 416. These are the big differences.
What percentage of Swedish kids are not natives but from places like Somalia? That would bring Sweden’s average down.
Which nation? Serbia? I’m not exactly familiar with the Balkans aside from Slovenia and Croatia, which to my mind are the only two countries worth visiting and thinking/caring about.
You should heed Steve Sailer’s advice. PISA gives you a general sense, but for minute/fine-grained nit-picking it is largely useless. Remember that Iceland got an “IQ” of 97 in the 2015 version as well, once you normalised their scores to the median, which is laughable at every level. Still, PISA is not useless as a whole, as long as its limitations are kept in mind. Same is true with PIAAC(Italy as “94” IQ etc).
Additionally, the Swedish score should be boosted since Poland is almost entirely homogeneous whereas the 15-year old population of today’s Sweden decidedly is not.
By that token, Nigerians must have “higher innate capability” than North Koreans since their country’s GDP per capita is higher.
Ukrainians have underperformed for a wide variety of reasons. We have many of them here, 2 millions and still going up. I’ve met hundreds of them at this point in casual conversations over the last three years. There’s no real difference between them and Poles in terms of intelligence that I’ve noticed the same way I notice right away with Arabs, Turks, and yes, some Balkan groups.
Ukraine and Poland are very similar and the differences in our development are entirely due to politics/social factors, just like North Koreans are much pooer than South Koreans despite being very similar, in fact identical in their case. Not everything comes down to “innate” factors in life.
You want to hear another one of my favorite theories about God – since you liked my previous one about pre-emptive punishment so much.
The best way, the absolutely best way that God punishes people – and you morons, the Ukrainians are perfect example of this – is by making them who they are.
By making you stupid, unable to learn from past experiences, use logic to come to conclusions, God couldn’t have done a better job at punishing you.
He made you who you are, and his job was pretty much done at that point, from then on, you are a punishment to yourselves, no need for continuous input from God. You can only continue to do God’s fine job that he has done on you, you great believers.
Here’s TIMSS 2011 data for you, math; results are for 4th grade and 8th grade. Not all countires participate every year for all grades. Centerpoint is 500. I included most Slavic countries + Hungary for reference.
https://timss.bc.edu/TIMSS2011/downloads/T11_IR_M_Chapter1.pdf
4th grade: Russia 542, Serbia 516, Hungary 515, Slovenia 513, Czech 511, Slovakia 507, Croatia 490, Poland 481.
8th grade: Russia 539, Hungary 505, Slovenia 505, Ukraine 479.
Like I said, stupid is as stupid does.
I said best estimator, not the only estimator. But fair point, I should have been more specific/precise. Nigeria has oil and no sanctions, North Korea doesn’t (oil) and has (sanctions). If I had to pick where I’d live, and those were the only two options, I’d pick NK.
I really have no genuine interest in proving how stupid or smart Ukrainians are; I am just massively irritated when an @$$ such as AP just can’t keep himself from having to crap on others just to scrape some angle by which his tribe is shown to be superior, while most other measures of accomplishment paint them in a pretty bad light.
I wish Ukrainians all the best in their stuggle to climb from the whole they dug themselves in. But that starts with the realization that you dug yourself into a hole, so you should a) stop digging, b) stop blaming others for your own screw-ups and c) stop gratuitously offending others who have accomplished more. When you read what AP has to say, it’s always someone else’s fault; those pure noble brilliant Ukrainians, the most pure and noble and brilliant Slavs, and if not for those nasty evil Russians, or Germans, or Poles, or Tatars, or whomever, they would all live in paradise.
Re: your earlier comment “If I had my way, Poland would convert to Eastern Orthodox tomorrow”, welcome home, brother! From your lips to God’s ears.
He is, I think, either a Bulgarian or a Macedonian.
You are correct. Slovenians and Croatians are the only people of actual mostly Slavic descent in the Balkans.
Cyrano was fond of calling Poles and Ukrainians stupid and appealing to pan-Slavism; I found this funny, because Balkan “Slavs” are in general the least intelligent people in Europe, and because although they speak Slavic languages they are only of about 20% Slavic ancestry, making them as Slavic as the typical African-American is a European.
I pointed it out, and they do protest.
Something I have discovered: when someone takes a strong pro-Russian nationalist position, but is actually more stupid than an actual Russian (Russians tend to be intelligent), it is probably a Balkan pseudo-Slav.
Indeed it is, and you have demonstrated it adequately, our low-IQ Balkan friend.
Apparently you must read things more than once to understand it.
Remember when I wrote:
Ukraine does participate in TIMMS. On this test Ukrainian kids were tested about 8 months earlier than were Balkan kids, and produced scores that were about the same. That is, a Ukrainian who begins 8th grade knows as much as a Bulgarian who finishes 8th grade.
Will it sink in after you’ve read it twice?
You forgot – Romania, 458. Macedonia 426. No Serbia in that group.
There was a whole discussion on TIMSS here:
https://www.unz.com/akarlin/map-russia-iq/#comment-2105049
Essentially, Ukrainian kids were tested 7 months earlier (almost the whole school year) than Balkan (in this case, Romanian) kids, and had fewer courses, and still outscored the Romanians by a large number. Macedonians are even worse!
So TIMSS shows Balkans at the bottom, and well below Ukrainians.
You’ve dug a whole and you keep digging, Chet. 🙂
If you were a little smarter and more observant you would have noticed that those posts I made were purely responses to others, from the Balkans, who had first mentioned Ukrainians’ and Poles’ low intelligence. Funny, how you didn’t have a problem with that, isn’t it.
I responded because, well, it’s amusing when a Balkan talks about intelligence, given the low level of general intelligence in the Balkans. So I pointed it out, with evidence (there is plenty of it).
This process finally began when Ukraine decisively turned towards its Western neighbors and abandoned its previous neutral policy.
I don’t write such nonsense. Ukrainians are just simply Slavs, like Poles, or Russians. Balkans simply aren’t (other than Slovenes and Croats).. They are 1/5 Slavs and 4/5 something else. Those are just facts. These facts make Balkan pan-Slavs ridiculous and funny.
So when a Balkan pseudo-Slav demonstrates his pan-Slavism and claims low intelligence of Poles or Ukrainians, the natural thing is to point out the facts that his people are not Slavs and that they are in general the dumbest peoples in Europe.
(I am repeating myself in this post – but apparently you need repetition).
Polish culture is so bound in its Catholicism that a conversion to Orthodoxy would be…odd. A more realistic way of turning against the Vatican would be something like what England did.
There is this Church in the USA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_National_Catholic_Church
To you I am Mr. Slav, pan-Slav sounds too Polish to me, and I am not too big of a fan of the Polaks either. Don’t let my “pan-Slavism” fool you, I like only smart Slavs, and you ain’t one of them. You are as stupid as Ukro-Nazi can get (I borrowed that term from Saker, it has a nice ring to it).
Have you looked at the present state of the Church of England?
It’s simply a reflection of the English people. Poles are not English.
LOL, and Tyrone Jones from Detroit is Mr. Englishman. He’s about 18% European, after all, and he speaks English.
So if Bulgarians were Slavs you wouldn’t like them.
So, Ukro-Nazi – is it OK if call you Mengele – OK, Mengele it is then. Tell me Mengele, what was the thought process (if there was any) of those who pay you to troll your BS about Ukraine here?
Did they think that you have the intellect and the charisma to win the hearts and minds of everyone who reads your BS and make them sympathetic to you “cause”? If that’s the case, then I must ask you to forgive me, because I thought that you are one of the stupidest Ukrainians out there, but if someone thought you can do a good job of promoting Ukraine’s “interests”, than I am wrong – there are Ukrainians who are even more stupid than you.
Your theories about racial purity are about 80 years out of date, Mengele, but then again you Ukrainians were never known as the quickest calves in the barn – stupid cattle yes, but not the quickest calves.
More accurately put, Croats and Slovenes have a mix with Western non-Slavs. As previously noted further up this thread, different groups of Slavs have (over the course of time) had different mixes with other non-Slavs.
The emphasis on DNA/genetic studies on the subject, begs to question the accuracy of such findings, as well as any existence of other studies offering something different.
On the subject of Slavs, the Nazis in their dogma were bigoted against them. Yet, that didn’t stop Nazi Germany from recognizing Croatia and Bulgaria as national entities. Of the two, Bulgaria had the better WW II record of decency.
Nope, it was you in comment #47: According to Lynn, Balkan peoples have about African American level of IQ.
Sure you do. You claimed that Ukraine’s poverty is uniquely due to being under the Soviet system, as if that didn’t affect Russia and Belarus too. However Belarus’s PPP GDP is $19,198, more than double Ukraine’s $9,125. The Ukraine is the poorest Slavic nation by far, of which you should be ashamed considering what you started with after the USSR dissolved.
When I pointed out how poor the Ukraine is compared to small Balkan Slav countries, you claim that it’s due to them having “softer” version of Communism. You even claimed that Serbia getting bombed and having 40% of industrial capacity destroyed wasn’t as bad as the Ukrainian experience.
When I brought TIMSS results, you claimed Ukraine’s scores are bad because the kids are younger (as if that only affected Ukraine). Slovenian kids are even younger than Ukrainian, Russian kids are 1/2 year older on average than Ukrainian kids. But that’s all due to when kids start school according to local law; it’s not like Ukrainian kids get tested at the beginning of the school year and Bulgarian or Hungarian kids get tested at the end. They all get the same amount of schooling come testing time, but in some countries the kids are younger on average because they start school younger on average. That’s the least unfair way to conduct the testing.
The only straw to which you’re holding purporting Ukrainians superior intelligence compared to the Balkan Slavs is Lynn and Vanhanen’s book. The book that contains actual tested IQ data (not even getting into how well that testing was done) for only 81 countries out of 185, the rest being estimates. So this is all you have. One number from one book is your claim to superiority.
Finally, your claim that only Slovenes and Croats are “real” Slavs, the rest of the Balkan Slavs are not: had you bothered to actually check out the maps of the haplogroups, you would have realized that only Slovenes are really distinct, being most similar to Czechs and Slovaks (as is their language). The Croats aren’t really different from Bosnians and Serbs (and no, you don’t get to decide which Croats are real Croats and which Croats are not). But you couldn’t even bother to check.
Pathetic.
A correct fact. Made in response to a Bulgarian who wrote:
https://www.unz.com/akarlin/superpower-demographics/#comment-2183121
Again, a funny comment, given that Bulgarians have close to African American IQ and a have little genetic link to any Slavs.
Good to see you outrage is selective.
Look at you lie. My full statement:
“I don’t write such nonsense. Ukrainians are just simply Slavs, like Poles, or Russians. Balkans simply aren’t (other than Slovenes and Croats)..”
That being said – obviously, the Soviet system screwed Ukrainians up. As Commie rule has screwed up north Koreans, relative to southern ones. As Ottoman rule screwed up Balkans. You don’t think this is obvious?
Ukraine was the poorest Slavic nation during the USSR. It is still the poorest Slavic nation.
And it was still wealthier, and remains wealthier, than the only Balkan country that was also in the USSR.
Correct. Do you doubt this?
LOL. You think that was worse than Ukraine’s Soviet experience?
Balkan education at work?
The only Balkan kids directly compared to Ukrainian kids were Romanians and Macedonians.
Ukraine 479
Romania, 458
Macedonia 426
So I’m not sure what you are trying to argue here. Romanian kids were older and still scored worse.
Even better, Balkan kids had hours more instruction in these subjects, and still fared worse tan did Ukrainians.
You can’t read.
http://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/research_sites/timssandpirls/timss2011/downloads/T11_IR_Science_FullBook.pdf
Pp. 445-446.
In Romania, Macedonia and Ukraine earliest school age is 6 – though Ukrainian parents can wait until the kid is 7, suggesting that Ukrainian kids could be older on average.
Romanian and Macedonian kids were several months older than Ukrainian ones. They were tested later in the school year.
You can’t tell the difference between 1 and 2. Counting is hard.
TIMSS and Lynn’s estimates are the two direct comparisons. Balkans lower than Ukraine both times.
Not my claim.
Specific studies of Slavic genetics followed. In 2007 Rębała and colleagues studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland.[54] The significant findings of this study are that:
Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya.[55]
However, Southern-Slavic populations including the Bosnians, Croats (excluding north-western Croatia), Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by “… contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs …”[55]
:::::::::::::
So Slovenes are Slavs by ancestry. Some Croats are, others are not. Serbs, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Bosniaks are clearly not.
Yes, you are. But keep digging 🙂
It’s just pointing out ancestry.
They haven’t heard of DNA down in the Balkans?
Obviously you didn’t read the schedule document. All testing (“data collection”) happens from March through June for the northern hemisphere. All kids have had more or less the same amount of instruction. Your claim that the Ukrainian kids were tested 8 months earlier than Balkan kids is just a made-up BS. They may have been younger on average, since they start school earlier, but they were all tested at about the same time in the school year and have had comparable amounts of time covering the subject.
So of all the Slavs (which I define here primarily culturally and linguistically, so yes Bulgarians are Slavs despite your best efforts), you outscored tiny Macedonia. Whopdee-doo. And they are still twice as rich as you are.
Oh wait, TIMSS:
4th grade Russia 542, Serbia 516, Slovenia 513.
8th grade: Russia 539, Slovenia 505, Ukraine 479.
Somehow I don’t see all those Balkan people being so dumb.
Those tricky Serbs, they must have cheated you out of your well-deserved place. And they like Russians on top of that! Abomination!
If anyone hasn’t benefited from “good” DNA, it’s you, you retards. What have you got to show for your superior DNA? You are so stupid, you can’t even see that they are using you. You have no value of your own, the only importance you have for the west comes from your relation to Russia and how much they can use you to hurt the Russians. Otherwise you are useless. How many different ways do I have to tell you that, until I can get through you thick skull. Stalin was too good to you dogs. He should have thrown the book on you.
You seem to know something about the subject matter. Please do offer some citations from ‘other studies offering something different’ to clarify the ‘accuracy’ you speak of. You couldn’t be possibly just BSing the readers here, Mickey? 🙂
Why not? Using your own measuring device of giving more respect to societies that have created higher standards of living for themselves (and to be emulated), Poland has a higher GDP than any Balkan country and offers its citizens a higher standard of living too.
You fail again.
Pg. 344, instructional hours per year.
Ukraine 901 hours
Romania 984 hours
Macedonia 1023 hours
TIMSS scores:
Ukraine 479
Romania, 458
Macedonia 426
Balkans kids spend about 100 more hours per year learning math than do Ukrainian kids. That adds up to hundreds of additional hours of math instruction for Balkan kids than for Ukrainian kids. And yet the Balkan kids still get outscored by Ukrainian kids in math achievement.
That’s an excellent indicator of innate ability.
It gets worse for Balkan kids.
TIMSS is strictly an academic test. It covers 19 math topics.
Ukrainian kids only learn 14 of the 19. Macedonian kids learn 18 of 19, and Romanian kids learn all 19 topics.
And still, Ukrainian kids outscore Balkan ones on this test.
Macedonia was the only Balkan “Slav” country tested alongside Ukrainians.
Ukrainians weren’t tested in the 4th grade, so there is no comparison. Also innate intelligence manifests itself as kids get older.
I never disputed that Ukrainians were, in general, slightly less intelligent than Russians. Ukrainians have some Balkan ancestry and this would drag their average IQ down a little. But, as we see in TIMSS scores, and Lynn’s estimate, while Ukrainians do worse than Russians they are not in the same league as Balkan peoples.
African Americans are linguistically and culturally European-Americans so by your Balkan logic Detroit must be a European city : -)
And Nigeria is richer than North Korea.
African American per capita income is about $19,00o per year. In Serbia it is $5,599.
Balkan logic says income is an important indicator intelligence, and historical context doesn’t matter too much.
Uh oh.
:::::::::::
To summarize, in response to Balkans disparaging Polish or Ukrainian intelligence,
Lynn’s IQ estimates:
https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country
Germany 99
Poland 99
Russia 97
Ukraine 97
Romania 94
Bulgaria 93
Macedonia 91
Serbia 89
Mexico 88
(African Americans 85 – not from Lynn)
PISA rankings:
https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html
Finland 529
Poland 521
Americans whites 518
Russia 481
Slovakia 472
Hispanic Americans 465
Turkey 462
Serbia 447
Bulgaria 440
Romania 438
African Americans 434
Montenegro 422
Albania 395
TIMSS, 8th grade math:
Russia 539
Sweden 484
Ukraine 479
Norway 475
Romania 458
Turkey 452
Macedonia 426
(note than on TIMSS despite getting hundreds of hours more instruction, Balkan did worse than did Ukrainians)
Literacy rates, by country:
Poland 99.8%
Ukraine 99.8%
Russia: 99.7%
Italy 99.2%
Romania 98.8%
Bulgaria 98.4%
Serbia 98.1%
Macedonia 97.8%
(see evidence above)
You can’t dispute the first part – that Balkan peoples are in general the least intelligent peoples in Europe, so you try to dispute the second part, claiming that Ukrainians are in general as dumb as your own people. However, as we see, in 3 of the 4 measures above (Lynn’s comparisons, TIMSS, and national literacy rates) the Balkans rank lower than Ukrainians. On the third measure, PISA, Ukrainians simply weren’t tested.
I didn’t mention good or bad. I am not a Slavic supremacist. I simply stated the fact that genetic evidence tells us that Russians, Ukrainians, Poles etc. are Slavs and Slavic-speaking peoples in the Balkans are not. You have as much Slavic ancestry as the typical African American has European ancestry.
Lynn’s IQ estimates:
https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country
Germany 99
Poland 99
Russia 97
Ukraine 97
Romania 94
Bulgaria 93
Macedonia 91
Serbia 89
Mexico 88
(African Americans 85 – not from Lynn)
PISA rankings:
https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html
Finland 529
Poland 521
Americans whites 518
Russia 481
Slovakia 472
Hispanic Americans 465
Turkey 462
Serbia 447
Bulgaria 440
Romania 438
African Americans 434
Montenegro 422
Albania 395
TIMSS, 8th grade math:
Russia 539
Sweden 484
Ukraine 479
Norway 475
Romania 458
Turkey 452
Macedonia 426
(note than on TIMSS despite getting hundreds of hours more instruction, Balkan did worse than did Ukrainians)
Literacy rates, by country:
Poland 99.8%
Ukraine 99.8%
Russia: 99.7%
Italy 99.2%
Romania 98.8%
Bulgaria 98.4%
Serbia 98.1%
Macedonia 97.8%
African American per capita income is about $19,00o per year.
Personal income per capita (a metric which differs from GDP per capita) is among blacks about 1/3 lower than that of the general population when you control for the effect of outsize participation in income transfer programs. That’s about 30,000 per year.
As usual, you come well prepared to the debate and offer solid factual materials to backup your thoughts on a subject. Question: I’ve noticed as of late, that your comments appear here in a grey box that acts as a sort of entrance point, instead of the normal reply option format. Why is that?
Thanks for the correction. Makes the point even stronger.
I don’t see that when I look at them.
“According” to mean that it might not be. It’s clearly understood that the ancestors of modern day Serbs settled in the Balkans prior to the 10th century from the area now known as Ukraine.
Once again, Croats and Slovenes have Western non-Slav traces, with Serbs and Bulgarians having non-Slav traces of a different kind (from Croats and Slovenes) as well.
Hard to find “pure” for lack of a better term. Offhand, perhaps Iceland comes closest.
These people contributed only about 20% to the Serbian genetic mix, the rest of which mostly comes form local indigenous people. What you are saying is similar to – “the ancestors of modern day Mexican Mestizos settled in Mexico from Spain.” Sure, some did. Most did not. And Mexican Mestizos (40% European) have proportionately twice as much Spanish ancestry, as Serbs have Slavic ancestry.
Hungarians actually have more Slavic ancestry than do Serbs.
Purest Slavs are probably found in the swampland of the Belarus-Ukrainian border. Differences in “purity” of Slavs between Ukrainians, Russians, Poles are trivial. Balkan “Slavs” are simply not Slavs by significant ancestry.
Why do you use the data of the PISA 2009, if there is data 2015?
Slovenia-513
Portugal-501
Luxembourg-482
You assured me above that this difference is not significant.
But then
Israel 467
Slovakia 461
Chile 447
Bulgaria 446
Of course in Israel 15% Muslims, but in Bulgaria (in memory), too, 15% Muslims and many Roma. And Slovakia is a homogeneous country
By the way Ireland 503, and Lynn Ireland was estimated at the level of Africa.
From a scientific point of view, this is the wildest nonsense. Slavs are a group of people who speak Slavic languages.
“Slavs are an Indo-European ethno-linguistic group who speak the various Slavic languages of the larger Balto-Slavic linguistic group.”
Roughly the same written in any encyclopedia. It can be argued that the Slavic peoples are divided into several genetic clusters. However, the division of the Slavic peoples “genetic pure Slavs” and “not genetically pure Slavs” sample hardcore “фричество” ( as this word in English? Frico-creativity?).
I despise any nation or group of nations who draw excessive pride from their religion. Only people who have nothing else to be proud of, use religion as “proof” that they they’ve “accomplished” something. That’s why generally I don’t have a favorable opinion about the members of the pedophile sect among the Slavs.
Because Steve Sailer includes data for African Americans and Hispanic Americans.
Bulgarians still at the bottom, lower than heavily Mestizo Chileans.
Bulgaria is 85% Bulgarian, 9% Turkish, 5% Roma.
Bulgarian Muslims are native Turks and probably not much different from Bulgarians (like Volga Tatars vs. Russians), not Somali refugees. Turkey doesn’t do worse than Bulgaria on these tests so these Turks shouldn’t be bringing down the Bulgarian average.
Slovakia is 80.5% Slovak, 8.5% Hungarian. 2% are officially Roma, but “In the most recent survey carried out by the Slovak Government’s Roma Plenipotentiary, the figure for the percentage of Roma was arrived at through interview with municipality representatives and mayors, according to how many Roma they think live in their jurisdictions. The figure arrived at by this means was in the region of 300,000 (about 5.6%)”
Which is why it is good to look across more than one measure, in case of some possible problem.
Balkans, unlike Irish, are at the bottom across multiple measures.
So in your world an African student in Moscow who learns the local language, and adopts Orthodoxy, is now a Slav.
Modern scientific data has a nice way of challenging old commonly held fairytales, such as that Serbs are Slavs who came down to the Balkans: we now know that Serbs are mostly descended from native Balkan people who adopted the Slavic language.
With Bulgarians it is more obvious. So Encyclopedia Britannica questions whether they are Slavs:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Slav
Slav, member of the most numerous ethnic and linguistic body of peoples in Europe, residing chiefly in eastern and southeastern Europe but extending also across northern Asia to the Pacific Ocean. Slavic languages belong to the Indo-European family. Customarily, Slavs are subdivided into East Slavs (chiefly Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians), West Slavs (chiefly Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, and Wends, or Sorbs), and South Slavs (chiefly Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Slovenes, Macedonians, and Montenegrins). Bulgarians, though of mixed origin like the Hungarians, speak a Slavic language and are often designated as South Slavs. (See Bulgar.)
Well, there are two groups of Slavic-speaking people: one group are descended from people from the Slavic homeland who spread around eastern and southern Europe. This group includes the Western and Eastern Slavs, plus Slovenes and some Croats. Another group of Slavic-speakers are mostly descended from native peoples of the Balkans, with small % ancestry of people from Slavic homeland.
::::::::::::::
The confusion is that there are not separate terms like “Hispanic” vs. “Spanish.” To follow your logic, all Mestizos, Mullatos who speak Spanish, as well as Spaniards, would simply be Spanish but with different genetic clusters. (funny thing is, it is not uncommon for Afro-Hispanics who don’t speak English well to simply call themselves “Spanish.”)
That accounts for lot of Poles and Russians, among others.
Maybe the only Slavs you like are Czechs?
You know what Henry Ford said when people complained that Ford model T comes only in black color? He said, you can have the model T in any color you want as long as it’s black. Same thing for the Slavs, they can have any religion that they want – as long as it’s Orthodox. Religion has never been about religion, it has always been about politics.
According to you and the suspect source/sources. Meantime, the Hungarian language and Hungarian people are generally thought to be of a non-European origin.
As for another comment from you in answer to one of the Balkan posters here:
“You have as much Slavic ancestry as the typical African American has European ancestry.”
A geographic, linguistic and physical appearance comparison between the two challenges that claim.
Out of curiosity, are you one of those who say that the Albanians are descended from the ancient Greeks?
BTW, in Bulgaria, there’s a Turkic minority, who’re distinguishable from the Slavic Bulgarians. Bulgarians like Serbs come in noticeably different shades, indicating that a very accurate case by case DNA/genetic overview is in need to firmly establish who is and isn’t Slav, as well as who is and isn’t more Slav.
You don’t know genetics, do you?
Magyars, like Bulgars, originally came from Asia but neither Hungarians nor Bulgarians are Asians; they are overwhelmingly natives. Despite speaking a Slavic language, Bulgarians have less Slav in their ancestral mix than do non-Slavic speaking Hungarians.
Precisely, thank you. And not just now; Slavs are a group of people who have spoken Slavic languages and have had a similar culture, customs (and also pre-Christian religion), for thousands of years, as do all our ancestors. That’s too thick for AP to comprehend. And it’s also why an African who learns Russian is not a Slav – no history.
AP’s claim that only R1a are pure Slavs is totally putting the cart before the horse. The names of Y haplogroups are just labels created in the last few decades, and don’t change thousands of years of history. If you believe that Slavs came to the Balkans in 7th century (which is a 19th century German BS theory), then you are going to look for the place they came from, and think that place is the cradle, and think that the haplogroup prevalent in that cradle is the “original” Slavic haplogroup. But it all has to be based on the premise that Slavs moved from somewhere relatively recently.
My ancestors (well, most Balkan Slavs) have lived in the Balkans long before 7th century. To this day there are many Slavic toponyms in west Central Greece (easy to find on Google maps), all the way to the gulf of Corinth. This area is much further south than the areas in Macedonia and Thrace ruled temporarily by Bulgarian and Serbian kingdoms in the Middle Ages, and officially Slavs have never lived there, if you believe that they came in 7th century and settled at the periphery of the Byzantine empire. Which tells us that Slavs have been there a lot longer and were spread over a much larger territory.
That also explains why Balkan Slavs don’t have much of R1a. Our dominant haplogroup is I2a, proto-Europeans, because duh, that’s what we are. Which makes us somehow non-Slavs only according to AP’s deranged musings based on German pseudo-history.
You know AP, I am happy for you. You should take this and make it into a poster or wallpaper, so you can surround yourself with it and it will keep you happy, and it may make you forget that you come from the crappiest Slavic country by far. The crappiness of which is entirely of your own making, all your excuses notwithstanding.
We dumb Balkan Slavs will keep on improving our countries best we can, and you just wait for Немцы to come and rescue you. Except there’s no West left waiting for you; there’s only Conchita Wurst left, so you may want to get ready for “her” wurst.
LOL, you can’t face the facts and don’t have the decency to admit that you were mistaken.
I see you have finally stopped digging, however. You have been a very slow learner.
Well, since Serbia, Macedonia etc. are not Slavic countries you may be correct.
Oh, we have entered the realm of fairytales akin to Ukrainians building pyramids. Maybe Socrates was a Slav too?
The general consensus is 6th century.
Meanwhile, in the real world:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17364156
Of course they did. However, unlike your Albanian cousins, your ancestors lost their native language and adopted the Slavic one.
Meanwhile in real life, all those papers on genetics you have been referencing confirm that Southern/Western Slavs are indeed Slavs, although genetically distinct from the Northern/Eastern Slavs. So thank you for disproving your own point, you saved me the trouble.
Perhaps you should come back with a better reply once you’ve been able to figure out the logic of what comes before and what comes after. But timelines may not be your strongest point, since your national “identity” started in 19th century, while mine is documented about 10 – 12 centuries prior.
I know that you’ve misrepresented things in the past, like your Franco-German comparison to Russia-Ukraine, answered further up this thread.
Saying that Hungarians are more Slav than Bulgarians will be news to most of the two. Lot of stats thrown back and forth in an informal manner:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-186435.html
Once again, the issue is how accurate are the overall DNA/genetic comparisons. I’ve no doubt that there’re genetically more Slav Bulgarians and Serbs than a good number of Russians, Ukrainians and Croats, with vice versa instances as well.
Franjo Tudjman is quite some Slav name. Ditto Mario Rubilo, Croatia’s nationalist UN ambassador, circa early to mid 1990s. In fairness to you, a DNA infomercial aired in the US gives the example of someone who thought he was Italian – only to learn that he was more Croat, upon a genetic test. That example doesn’t tell the whole story.
In Russia, many consider themselves ethnic Russian on the census, despite having other non-Slav mixes. If I’m not mistaken, Lavrov is half Armenian. If the other half of him is Russian – how Slav is that part of him?
And the difference between Slovenia (Pisa test 513) and Slovakia (Pisa test 461) is the same order as between white and black in the United States. Slovakia (and Israel) – the African state? As you can see, Pisa test is useless in this case.
Bulgarians Pisa test 446, Chileans Pisa test 447. You have stated above that the difference between Portugal (501) and Luxembourg (482) is not significant. Well, Chile and Bulgaria are completely equal. Chileans (like Argentines) are completely white, and in all respects (GDP, etc.) Chile is at the level of Europe.
So! And here is Ukraine (on your claims – can quote) 99% white Christian state. So it turns out that declared by you “superiority” over the Bulgarians complete fiction (Ukrainians, according to Karlin average IQ 92).
Upon a quick perusal, this shows that not everything is so well defined as someone here has presented:
https://www.google.com/search?ei=NymFWvOmLY_H5gLQopfACA&q=genetic+dna+who+is+more+slavic+croats+or+serbs&oq=genetic+dna+who+is+more+slavic+croats+or+serbs&gs_l=psy-ab.12…3637.7388.0.9454.12.12.0.0.0.0.98.962.12.12.0….0…1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0….0.8F349mOpq2U
Offhand, one seriously questions whether Slovenes and Croats (in overall terms) are genetically closer to each other than Serbs, Croats and Montenegrins are among themselves? The Slovenian language is noticeably different from Serbo-Croatian, that recent history has more popularly differentiated as Serb and Croat, despite very limited differences between the two – different alphabets aside. Slovenia is by far the most homogeneous of former Yugo republics.
In science, everything is clear – those people who by the early 19th century, spoke the romance languages (these people have different origins!) is a Latin or Romance peoples, those people who by the 19th century spoke Germanic languages (these people also have different origins!) this Germanic peoples, and those peoples who spoke Slavic languages Slavs. And the Turks generally belong to different “big” races (below – Yakut and Chuvash)
http://fotki.ykt.ru/albums/userpics/18224/normal_42_sxkcswb5ghe.jpg
http://viola.bz/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Alexandra-Petrova-beautiful-Russian-model.jpg
but they’re Turks because they spoke the Turks languages.
In General, you АР need to issue a scientific monograph in which you convince scientists from all countries that Hungarians are Slavs, and Bulgarians and Serbs are not Slavs. When the British encyclopedia will be changed changed according to your views, then you will be able to present your ideas as “scientific”. Until then, it’s “фричество”
Speaking of Chile, I have been there. It’s the wealthiest country in South America. Santiago is not as flashy as Buenos Aires, but it’s very well organized. Chileans are very disciplined, unlike most Latin Americans, and are very proud of that fact and will make sure you know it as soon as you meet them. They claim it’s impossible to bribe a traffic cop in Chile, that the cops would be offended if you offered them a bribe because they take pride in what they do. Having seen all that, I am pretty suspicious of their relatively low PISA scores. As I said before, observed life outcomes beat testing every time.
Thanks. That’s exactly why I called AP the Humpty Dumpty of this blog, comment #127. “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”
Yeah, you summarized it pretty well. Thanks for the effort, I get really tired of repeating the stuff that AP isn’t going to pay attention to anyway because it doesn’t fit his imaginary universe.
Slovenia is (or rather was) pretty homogenous, now it has a lot of people from Bosnia; mostly Moslems, some Serbs. It’s still a very nice place.
Croatia is a more interesting story; in 7th – 10th centuries there was a distinct Croatian kingdom, roughly northern half of what was later Yugoslavian coast (Serbs were in the southern half). Buth then Croats lost independence to Hungarians in 11th century. Upon national awakenings in 19th century, Croatian intellectuals realized they had two distinct populations: people along the coast (Dalmatia) who spoke Chakavian dialect (their word for what/шта/што is cha/ча), while people in the northwest (Zagora, area neighboring Slovenia) spoke Kajkavian dialect (their word for what/шта/што is kaj/кај). Those two dialects are not mutually intelligible. The solution: pick a western Serbian dialect and push it on everyone. Serbian btw in all variants is a Shtokavian dialect (their word for what is шта/што).
As a result of that language decision, over time all Roman Catholic Serbs “became” Croats. There are no more RC Serbs today, even though they had remained distinctly Serbian and RC since they coverted to RC, mostly after 15th century, all the way through 19th century. Probably half or more Croats today are those former Serbs, which is why it’s almost impossible to tell them apart, even genetically.
There are of course some pockets of distinct Croatians, the descendants of the original Croat populations, but they are a minority. Those are genetically closest to Slovenes. Overall Croatians today are a mix of those three constituent groups, the two distinct “old” Croatian groups and converted Serbs.
Funny story about Slovenia: if you’re playing professional basketball in Slovenia, you will have to speak Serbian, because that’s the most common language of all your teammates. I know a former NBA player from former USSR, who played in Slovenia for a few years before coming to the US. He speaks fluent Serbian even though he’s never lived in Serbia. He learned it in Slovenia playing basketball. When we see each other he insists on speaking Serbian, even though his English is more fluent than his Serbian.
An interesting point about Turks is that, if you look at old paintings of Turks fighting with the Byzantines, at the time of Seljuk invasions, they look like cousins of the girl in the first photo, i.e. East Asian. I have yet to meet a Turk nowadays that looks anything like that. They seem to have completely lost that phenotype due to all the mixing and taking Christian kids from the Balkans and southern Russia and making them into “Turks”. Unfortunately not that many look like the girl in the second photo either. 🙂 Today they seem to have two distinct types: the Euro look and the Middle Eastern look.
That’s the girl from Chuvash people (this folk, the last relative of the famous Huns!), but in Chuvashia also common more Northern European phenotype.
http://www.nat-geo.ru/upload/iblock/7ee/7ee5753e193904ace248eba2f842f8fd.jpg
This folk does not fit the stereotypes – Turkish, but white and Christian (partly pagans)
There’s plenty of BS out there for sure.
Over the years, I’ve come in contact with some Serbs, Montenegrins and White Russians (the last who settled in Yugo after the catastrophe in Russia), who get incensed in the relatively recent Edward Lucas propping of the idea that Montenegrins actually have more Croat as opposed to Serb roots.
Touching on one of your points:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_in_Slovenia
Religion has never been about religion, it has always been about politics.
Quit talking rot.
They confirm that your people are linguistically Slavicised natives rather than Slavic settlers.
To simplify things – descendants of some Albanians speak their ancestral language and are mostly Muslims, other Albanians – your people – speak a Slavic language and are Orthodox.
Is that easier to understand?
People traditionally believed the story that Slavs in the Balkans were descendants of Slavic settlers. Only with Bulgarians this wasn’t clear, so Britannica listed Bulgarians as not necessarily being Slavs.
Modern genetic evidence shows, however, that Serbs are mostly descendants of pre-Slavic natives.
So African-Americans – Germanic people?
I’ve met some Turkish girls that can be very beautiful though. I don’t think all their mixing, conquering and enslaving, was bad from that perspective.
Intelligent Russian tries to come to the rescue of the Balkan who has failed.
As I explained earlier, this is why it is good to have multiple sources of information. Balkan non-Slavs are at the bottom across the board, not just on one measure.
You are ignorant.
The most recent study in the Candela Project establishes that the genetic composition of Chile is 52% of European origin, with 44% of the genome coming from Native Americans (Amerindians), and 4% coming from Africa, making Chile a primarily mestizo country with traces of African descent present in half of the population.[100] Another genetic study conducted by the University of Brasilia in several American countries shows a similar genetic composition for Chile, with a European contribution of 51.6%, an Amerindian (Native) contribution of 42.1%, and an African contribution of 6.3%
Chile is whiter than Mexico, but it is not a “completely white” country.
So Bulgarians are about the same as Mestizos.
Since Turks are not dumber than Bulgarians, they do not bring down the Bulgarian average. I’m not sure how many Roma kids are in school in the 8th grade and at 5% of the population they would not be significant.
Karlin has estimated Ukrainian IQ to be lower than Russia’s, but higher than Balkans. I don’t disagree, although I suspect it would be closer to Russians while he thinks it would be exactly in between.
To add to this. It is why when it comes to language and religion Serbs are similar to Slavs, but when it comes to genetic traits such as intelligence, and probably temperament, they belong to the same group as Albanians.
It’s not easy to understand why you post links to articles that contradict your points, but thanks anyway. The rest is easy to understand.
It’s well known that Slavs penetrated even deep into the Pelopponnese during the 6th/7th century, with the Byzantines losing control of the countryside and hanging on to the cities, and that much of Greece was rehellenized only much later. I don’t really have any interest in getting involved in your discussion with AP (this recurrent dispute whether Balkan peoples are “real” Slavs or not must be some of the dumbest cr*p ever on Unz review), but do you really want to claim that Slavs were present in the Balkans in antiquity??? Were they the ancient Illyrians or what?
Correct. Before genetic research it was assumed that Serbs were simply descendants of those invader-settlers. In the 21st century we have discorvered that they are not – that the Slavic settlers contributed only about 20% to the Balkan “Slav” ancestry, the other 80% being pre-invasion natives. By descent, Serbs are rather similar to Albanians, much more so than to Slavs.
A similar phenomenon occurred with the English. It had been widely assumed that they were Germanic descendents of German and Scandinavian settlers who had wiped/driven out the native Britons. Now we know that they are of heavily Celtic descent (don’t feel like looking up the percentage).
When Balkan trolls like cyrano or spisarevski brag about their pan-Slavism and about other’s supposed low intelligence, it’s nice to remind them they are mostly not Slav by descent, and come from places with the lowest average intelligence in Europe, as evidence demonstrates.
Chet has failed and given up on the issue of intelligence. He can’t dispute the genetics, so he brings up a fairytale about ancient Slavic origins in the Balkans, or focuses on language.
(this recurrent dispute whether Balkan peoples are “real” Slavs or not must be some of the dumbest cr*p ever on Unz review),
At least he hasn’t called anyone a ‘f&%kwit’ yet. The longer this part of the discussion extends, the more the dispute as a whole enters the Iran-Iraq-War-Too-Bad-They-Both-Can’t-Lose territory.
That’s a good one. Serbs don’t represent Slavs well and you cunts do. You try to sell you cheap whing ases to anyone who would offer anything for them and you represent what Slavs are all about? You worthless piece of sit. Serbs are similar and you are a bang on “Slav”. Let me tell you something about me and my Balkan “pan-Slavism”. I never liked ALL Slavs, and I don’t hide that. There is plenty of garbage among us. My “pan-Slavism” includes only those who want to be Slavs, not those who are “Slavs” only until a better offer comes along.
Why do you think that every US official that ever visits Israel immediately dons a yarmulke – they convert to Judaism for the duration of the trip? Why did CIA elect Wojtyla for pope after centuries of Italian popes – because a Polak was essential for saving the Catholic church? Let me guess, you are Catholic? Go play with the altar boys.
I apologize; the discussion indeed became retarded. But to answer your question “do you really want to claim that Slavs were present in the Balkans in antiquity???” the short answer is yes, thanks to modern genetics. And I promise this is my last post on this topic.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15944443
The subsequent putative gene flows mentioned above would be what is considered arrival of Slavs into Balkans in 6-7 century AD. The major gene flows happened millennia earlier.
Why do you think that every US official that ever visits Israel immediately dons a yarmulke
Why do fancy I’m going to respond to the issue of your imagination? You want to write short fiction in your spare time, you do it. I’m not reading it.
– they convert to Judaism for the duration of the trip?
Yarmulkes are available at synagogues for those attending funerals. The Rabbinical Assembly offers this advisory “Psak Halacha According to all opinions there is no specific halakhic obligation for non Jews to wear a kippah in the synagogue. However, in our day, rabbis and congregations should establish the practice of asking all men to wear a kippah when present in the sanctuary or other parts of the building where prayer or other rituals are taking place, and requiring head covering if the person is participating in the prayer or ritual (e.g., reading a psalm). Whatever is the ynagogue’s practice regarding head coverning for Jewish women within the sanctuary or in prayers or ritual acts held elsewhere should be applied to non-Jewish women as well”
Why did CIA elect Wojtyla for pope after centuries of Italian popes
They didn’t. Again, I’m not your line editor and I’m not your psychiatrist either. No one in this forum is.
If I though there was any value to the syaptic activity between your two ears, I might point out that people in confessionals and people in meditation and people at rosary services and people at the votive candles are not engaged in political activity or (bar in odd cases) giving any though to the public world at all. That’s not going to do you any good, though. Now other people in the dayroom want to use the computer and it’s time for you to go to activities therapy.
I trust your judgment on this one. I believe you that you were there when the CIA didn’t elect the Polak for pope, so you are credible witness. In other words you witnessed the event that didn’t occur and that makes perfect sense. As for you handle – I would change only couple of letters to make it perfect – it should be Fart Echo, instead of Art Deco. That way it will reflect perfectly on the quality of the messages that you are emitting. Now f**k off and never bother to reply to my comments.
Much is difficult for you to understand, that’s okay.
So 11,000 years ago (Younger Dryas-Holocene), long before the formation of modern language groups, some people from the Balkans moved northeast, where eventually they met and mixed with people from Asia who had moved West. Several thousand years later the descendants of this mixture (who were mostly descended from the easterners) eventually formed the Slavs.
Some Serbs see this as evidence of ancient Slavs in Serbia, long before ancient Greeks. It’s like the people who believe in huge ancient cities in Russia.
True. multiple sources of information:
GDP (PPP) per capita $ 2016
Slovenia 32 216
Slovakia 31 331
Bulgaria 20 355
Serbia 14 593
Ukraine 8 320
at the bottom across the board, Yes. It should be noted that the poorest and most backward part of Ukraine is Western Ukraine, which was ruled by Communists at the same time as the southern Slavic countries.
It would be interesting to see the number of books that are read in different countries, but I do not have such information.
You’re really right. I came from old history books (where it was said that the Chilean Indians were almost completely exterminated and the Chilean population were Iberian immigrants). Turns out the Indians weren’t exterminated but assimilated.
GDP (PPP) per capita $ 2016
Chile 24 089
Bulgaria 20 355
Swaziland 9 814
Ukraine 8 320
Republic Congo 7 012
Indeed Bulgaria is on par with Chile, you are right.
PISA 2015
Bulgaria 446
Turkey 425
That is, taking into account Muslims and Roma, the results of the Bulgarians should be higher than 446.
The situation with Ukraine is different. About 15% of Ukraine’s population are Russians. IQ ethnic Russians in Russia about 100 (on a scale of PISA – 500). Taking into account Jews, Hungarians, Czechs and Poles (all these peoples have a high IQ), the situation with ethnic super-puper-pure Ukrainians turns out to be quite sad.
I absolutely do not agree with the claims about genetically determined stupidity of the Ukrainians (the Ukrainians are genetically indistinguishable from Russians and Poles). But attempts to portray the Ukrainians are a superior race compared to the “wrong Slavs” (which have a GDP per capita two times more than Ukraine), something pathetic and laughable.
Еxactly
If civility is a marker of intelligence, then you’re a poor representative of whatever ethnicity you’re trying to represent. You remind me of Stalin, you know, the ‘Russian’ who had everybody that disagreed with him either killed or sent off to Siberia. 🙁
GDP is not an accurate measure of intelligence. Otherwise Nigerians are smarter than North Koreans.
So we have IQ estimates, and educational achievement tests. Across the board, on multiple measures – Balkans at the bottom, Ukrainians above Balkans.
Prior to communism western Ukraine was wealthier than Russia, all the Balkans, Portugal, and Slovakia. (per capita GDP, 1890: Galicia – $1,947; Slovakia, $1,824; Portugal, $1,789; Bulgaria $1,670; Russia, $1,550; Serbia, $1,295). Moscow-imposed Communism impoverished Galicia relative to other regions.
Lviv now has has the third highest salary in Ukraine. With stronger connections to the West, Galicia is moving towards its traditional position. You are simply wrong.
They are simply more intelligent than Balkan “Slavs.”
I only point this out when Balkan Slavs comer and insult others’ intelligence. You don’t seem to have a problem with that. Well, they are your pets.
Oh, so this is not about genetics any longer?
So now we are back to languages? You just can’t decide which way you’d rather lose?
It’s just your faith. If we accept the estimate of Кarlin (IQ Ukraine 92), by the tests of PISA is about 460. The difference with the results of Bulgaria, less than the superiority of Portugal over Luxembourg (which in your words is not essential). Well, the example of Slovenia and Slovakia clearly shows that such tests are of very little value when compared to different countries.
It’s just evidence.
Lynn’s estimate and TIMMS performance both match this conclusion.
Karlin wrote:
http://www.unz.com/akarlin/literacy-predicts-russian-iq/?highlight=ukraine+iq+TIMSS
“The low literacy rates in late Tsarist Malorossiya, coupled with the finding of a close correlation between those literacy rates and modern day average IQ across both Russian provinces and today’s independent post-Soviet states, constitutes further evidence of a modest average IQ in Ukraine. Higher than in Moldova to be sure, but probably closer to the level of the Balkans than to Poland.”
He made incorrect assumptions about TIMSS, was corrected by me, and accepted those corrections:
https://www.unz.com/akarlin/map-russia-iq/#comment-2105049
Karlin’s speculation that Ukraine’s average IQ is between that of the Balkans and that of Poland is probably correct, though he probably thinks it is closer to the Balkans when more likely it is in the middle, or closer to Poland’s.
Tests may have anomalous results in particular cases. This is why it is good to look for patterns across various tests. The Balkans consistently perform at the bottom for Europe across multiple tests; they are the level of higher Latin American countries. Even Chet Bradley no longer argues against this. Ukraine consistently shows up higher than the Balkans, though in this case we only have two sources of information (Lynn’s estimate plus TIMSS).
You do realize that genetics differentiate people who left the Balkans 11,000 years ago from those who remained in the Balkans, just as they indicate origins in the Balkans 11,000 years ago.
Just pointing out the Balkan silliness of “thinking” that there is something meaningful in terms of Slavic identity, in the fact that 11,000 years ago some people left the Balkans and moved northeast, where they mixed with others people and many thousands of year later the Slavs emerged.