Ol’ Terrell J. Starr’s… star… is shining bright!
No doubt he deserves his six figure book deal, his struggles with elementary geography regardless.
Because yes, Ukrainians now confirm, they were oppressed POC too.
https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1273280773936775168
The face of the oppressed:
https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1273284397219930115
Nor were Ukrainians the only othered POC in the former USSR.
Why hello, fellow POC!
https://twitter.com/sielay/status/1273530437286141953
Hello hello!
https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1267803278403932160
Oops, that was me. Anyhow.
Unfortunately, the old school Ukrainian svidomy don’t appear so happy with their designated role of playing the Negro in this latest and weirdest wave of American colonialist messianism.
https://twitter.com/BasedPoland/status/1272343697879977985
They’re just not getting the memo.
UPDATE: Trouble in paradise!
Unfortunately for our intrepid Jewish Ukrainian POC, Terrell J. Starr was not amused by his attempts to appropriate his culture and lived experience for make benefit of the Ukrainian nation!
Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.
If you are new to my work, start here.
I thought Ukraine and Belarus were some of the most developed parts of the USSR? From what I have read, Ukraine suffered the most by leaving the USSR and never was able to truly develop without the aid of Russia. Belarus though is different thanks to “Father” although even then, I’ve been told alot of Belarusian success came from selling their products to the Russian market. In other words, Russia has been keeping the Belarusian economy alive…
How could Belarusians be oppressed before they even existed?
It’s no longer even a circular firing squad it’s just handicap wrestling in radioactive mud
Belarus is a petrostate. They buy Russian oil at domestic prices and resell it in Europe at international prices.
Not entirely. Belarus produces alot of domestic goods ranging from clothes to tractors. All of these goods are pretty much sold in the Russian economy rather then elsewhere in Europe. Not sure how much Belarus makes out of it all but as Russians have told me, “We buy Belarusian goods, we keep their economy alive.”
The most developed part of the USSR was actually the Baltic States when you look at per capita GDP, life expectancy, infant mortality, etc.
He is absolutely right. Murder rates under Ukrainian authority have been out of this world in the former Russian Imperial space, just like murder rates in black neighborhoods in the US today. Lazar Kaganovich, Lev Bronstein etc have a lot of blood on their hands.
Red Terror was organized by Bronstein, Martin Latsis, Peteris Kuzis and Hirsch Apfelbaum. Soviet security forces were led by Dzerzhinsky and then Menshinsky, Yagoda, Beria, and of course Jugashvili.
The entire Bolshevik Revolution was about minorities gaining power at all levels of the government and security apparatus and then going wild and taking it out on the rest of the population.
It was basically a weekend in Chicago South Side, but nationwide, and lasted longer. Very tragic.
They wouldn’t have had to be known as Belarusians in order to be “othered.”
A major reason I despise petty nationalists is their perennially adversarial relationship with the most obvious facts of history, such as ethnic oppression being a constant in human affairs – especially that committed by their own precious little nation.
Just because leftards drone on endlessly about “othering” doesn’t mean it doesn’t occur. The only relevant question is whether it’s justified. However much ethnic othering might have been justified historically – and even back then it was usually silly and pointless – my position is that today intraracial othering is self-defeating and only racial – especially ‘macro-racial’ – othering is justifiable (indeed, commendable).
He looks like a jew, is that a jew name (Sumlenny)?
Yeah, haw haw, hilarious.
But doesn’t anyone doubt that AK would use that argument if it were actually available to him?
Why would a Russia-firster – or an Anything-firster – turn down the chance to advance his interests on the cheap?
AK only mocks victimhood because his group is denied it, not on principle.
Dude, please. If you’re going to play that game, you’ll die before you get a tenth of the way through all the possible candidates for examination, so common are “looks Jewish” individuals in the slavic lands.
If he doesn’t fit your exacting racial requirements, fine. But then you’ll probably want to look elsewhere for racial allies.
Belorussian industrial enterprises are loss-making, and are kept afloat via government subsidies. The money for subsidies comes from trading Russian oil. They’re also making money through contraband, by selling sanctioned European food products in Russia as their own.
Oil rents & contraband – that’s the secret behind “Belorussian success” right here.
I never knew it but apparently Greeks are also oppressed negros in America. My ex-priest says he has experienced racism as a greek american and he identifies with the blacks and jews more than whitey.
But he doesn’t have to worry anymore cuz this whitey wont be in his temple oppressing him anymore.
Too bad I didn’t know I was an oppressor, cuz he had some cute little daughters I would have used my privileges on.
Speaking of oppressed Russia, it does look like Putler and Nabiullina read this blog.
As soon as I posted my comment about Russia keeping inflation under control and this signifying Russian transition to a developed economy status, this appeared:
https://m.vz.ru/economy/2020/6/17/1045497.html
Central Bank is lowering benchmark interest rate to inflation target +0.5%. This is great news for Russia. Lower interest rates enable deep long term credit market development which in turn greatly accelerates capital stock accumulation. For example, if you want to build a factory, it is a lot faster to take out a loan (or sell a bond) at reasonable interest rate rather than wait forever while you save your kopeks from under the couch.
I believe Russia will be able to handle this policy change well (with dangers being consumer price inflation and speculative attacks on currency in the international markets), and now Putin and Nabiullina think so as well. If this works, I wish to congratulate Russia on becoming a fully fledged developed economy that will be able to engage in “money printer goes brrr” policies at will without fear of wrecking its currency.
In the US, Africans are considered the most educated immigrant group. The reason is that they use American colleges and universities as a secret gateway to invade America, with many overstaying their visas.
Taking in African students just creates vicious, mixed-race radicals, looking to open the borders and tear down your society. It should never be done, there is no moral excuse for it.
If it is necessary, bribe them. If the education angle is needed, send them single board computers, with video lectures on usb.
I don’t know what you mean. Anatoly is a Person of Color.
Credentialism is meaningless as a measure of intelligence, even more so across countries
http://i.imgur.com/SQ1bZrm.png
It’s mostly the large nations that have petty nationalism, not the small ones, because the more powerful a nation the more power it has to pursue trivial grievances whereas the smaller a nation the less ability it has to pursue real grievances.
For example, if Belarus had been alone against Germany in World War II , it would have ended up losing a third of its population and ended up ruled by a bunch of Germans and some puppets who would have been told to praise Germany for the liberation. A lot of people would have been seething in resentment but they would have simply had to swallow their pride. That would have been a major, justified grievance and not petty at all.
An example of petty nationalism is the Ameericans after losing a couple of buildings in 9/11 claiming to be the biggest victims on the planet and starting a bunch of wars of retaliation against nations that didn’t have anything to do with attacks besides having roughly the same skin color as the terrorists.
It’s literally the other way around you mongolian steppe jester. Bigger nations can afford to not give a fuck about boring things like basic survival and focus on loftier goals like imperialism and spreading your cultural ethics around the globe.
Small nations live by the day, their only concern is whether they’ll get genocided by this or that powerful empire.
Their history is never objective, but always hypernationalism not interested in learning about processes, but proving their nation has built all the pyramids, dug all the seas, won all the wars, invented all the languages while being the most violently oppressed, having lost the most to genocides, and have gone through the most violent enslavement.
Their time to shine comes when a great power gets to send supplies to their tribal chieftains, this is when they can organize in nationalist zeal and thank John Frum for the rains. Until they find out it’s not for their accomplishment as workers in Giza, but because the Great Power needed their resources or wanted to set up military bases.
They don’t “swallow their pride”, they just bite their lip and write this as another “genocide” in their great “history of oppression”, that they’ll righteously present to you once another master demands tribute.
They’re boring.
In comparison Americans are strong. Yeah, they have their moral failings, but they’re strong. And that makes them much more interesting by default.
Mossad blew up a bunch of shitty towers? It’s time to tour around the globe bombing the shit out of towelheads for fun and profit.
For the small nations (!!!) across the middle east, it’s the worst genocide they’ve seen since Temujin. Americans can’t even point them out on a map.
In a more just world the litmus test for national relevancy should be an obese dip snuffing trucker from a flyover state. We stop him, and ask him to point “feee-hn-land” on a world map, if he fails you get a nuke, if he fails another time, you get a second nuke, third time, you get a golden star and it’s off to the study camps to concentrate.
Same can be done with alcoholic farmer Ivan, or a steel mill worker from the Guangdou province. The results will be mostly the same across the board.
The world loses a few hundred of welfare sponge indian reservations and becomes a better place to live, as whining ceases and harmony reigns again.
Heinrich Böll Stiftung
That’s US controlled German Green Party
LOL
Loss making only because others would rather suicide than buy them, due to eons of brainwashing, as well as sanctions
I like the cut of your jib, combining nukes and stickers.
It is a severely underused propaganda technique. The US Navy used to give out free “Go, Nuclear Navy!” bumper stickers, but I can’t think of any other examples, unless there are Russian ones (which I doubt). I like the idea of handing out ICBM/atom/sub/power plant stickers if a student does well, but mushroom clouds, or radiation sickness ones, if he does poorly.
And Ron should allow a custom button for AK. troll=> nuke!
You are describing pan-Germanism and various romantic nationalist theories that were popular among nationalists of all major European nations. (Afrocentrism is just an imitation or Hollywood-crafted mockery of various Nordicist theories of Germanic pyramid builders.)
Such ideas were very popular among the Germanic colonist elites of my country but ethnic Finns had nothing like it so to me this sounds like total nonsense and the exact opposite of the truth. (I did read one “Finns built the pyramids” book – by an ethnic Swedish aristocrat who wanted to develop a version of their racial occultist ideology as gift to ethnic Finns.)
I have no great knowledge of the internal politics of Belarus but as far as I can tell they’re rather unpretentious like ethnic Finns and I bet there are no Belarusian professors trying to prove that they built the pyramids.
I think there’s a reasonable chance he is a Jew, not because of his looks (which are average), but because of his background.
However, I would caution that merely looking suspect doesn’t make someone a Jew.
Compare Kushner:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/03/jared-kushner-expresses-doubt-palestinians-self-govern-trump-racism#img-1
With Heydrich and Weber:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Reinhard_Heydrich_colourised_wiki.png
https://www.historisches-lexikon-bayerns.de/images/e/e5/Artikel_44349_bilder_value_4_bund-oberland4.jpg
If watching Gone with the Wind is forbidden, then doesn’t that mean that Woke comparisons using characters from Gone with the Wind is also forbidden, because only a prejudiced person could have willingly watched such a film?
What a racist.
Oh come on, could one be more low-effort than that?
Update!
https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1273630843823628295
Joke all you want, but the behaviour of today’s Ukrainian is if anything more reminiscent of African Americans than Europeans; from the incessant demand of gibs, to committing crimes and then claiming they dindu nuffin they was on the path to cleaning themselves up they need mo money fo dem programs, with chimpouts when they don’t get what they want.
This is precisely what is happening now; given that they haven’t received gibs from the right wingers they courted so long from wignats to good old fashioned neocons they’re inevitably starting a flipflop.
Starr’s exhibited English isn’t so good – especially for someone supposedly getting a six figure salary.
The analogy of Ukrainian in Russia with Blacks in the US, is even more warped than the Ireland-Brit dominated England comparison with Ukraine-Russia.
The Russia-Ukraine versus Scotland-English dominated Britain comparison is more accurate.
Another comparison which isn’t as accurate (but better than Starr) notes the relationship between old school White American southerners with the US versus Ukrainians in Russia. Many White southerners simultaneously identify with the US, while having a strong sense of regional pride.
Starr comes across as a not so intellectually gifted PC hypocrite. No outrage at NYT journo Juliet Macur for her distinguishing comparison between “clean athletes” and “Russians”, noting how she’d be history were she to distinguish between “law abiding citizens” and “Blacks” and then try to defend such a comparison. Then again, Starr wasn’t alone on this particular, thereby explaining how Russia/Russians are so very much misunderstood and negatively portrayed among a good number.
Especially Estonia and Latvia.
Especially true of Estonia and Latvia.
That photo of Dr. Weber reminds me somewhat of Kent Tekulve, back when the latter was pitching for the Pirates.
Where do these wackjobs come up with the idea that Jews faced abuse in the USSR?
Jews ran the government, the Cheka, the Red Army, etc etc etc. Kaganovich, Beria, Yagoda, Swerdlov, Adler, Stalin, Trotsky, Lenin, etc etc… you can go through the major committees and you’ll find they are 60% Jews, 10% Armenians, and almost nowhere will you find an actual Russian.
Jews were a protected class with their own autonomous colonies, an entire autonomous oblast, and laws that punished people who criticized them.
It’s obscene.
PS: Mr Sumlenny is a pretty obvious Jew by his facial structure.
A jew, every single time, yet there are some here that still want to preach about how wrong it is to ask the question.
Thank you for providing my daily hit of confirmation bias.
Stalin shot all the Jews in the government. Had he not died he would have deported all of them to the far east.
You mean Sumlenny? Starr’s English is terrible too, but he appears to be some kind of freak – writes that he dates trannies. When he wrote “3/4 months” in Ukraine, I initially thought Starr was an English teacher (despite his terrible English), but he appears to be a Fulbright scholar and a writer for The Root.
The Ukraine needs to institute a travel ban on everything that Starr is pronto:
-black
-gay/tranny?
-writer for the Root
-Fulbright scholar
The wonders of globalism and diversity. Chimerica is now exporting its academic underclass of affirmative-action PhD’s to the world.
Enjoy the anti-colonialist stylings of oppressionist impressarios in the vein of Cornell West, Tennessee Coates & Tariq Nashid.
Will Putler take the knee for all of Russia’s historic raycisms against the peoples?
Coates is my guilty pleasure. Reading him is like reading dystopian sci-fi, where there is a new dialect, after the collapse. I don’t think you could travel back to 1980, and find a single person who would think that he is some mainstream writer.
You missed Henry Louis Gates, who I will mention for his quirk of riding a unicycle and honking a clown horn, on Martha’s Vineyard, which I think would stand him in good stead with the anarchists mentioned in The Man Who Was Thursday.
Irish and Scots come out with this sort of POC rhetoric in regards to the English all the time.
Grievance mongering has its limits. That said, it delivered Brexit. It works best when someone else owns reality. Once the aggrieved group gains power the veil slips a little. The answer is usually to turn the volume up and blame the oppressor for inflicting inescapble historical wrongs. However, the realities of economic limits and the lack of transformation in ordinary life eventually break through. This doesn’t mean No to independence. No nation governed another well. I speak as an inhabitant of England’s second oldest colony (and the oldest isn’t Ireland, it’s Cornwall). What it means is tha greivance mongering can be halted by handing over responsibility to the aggrieved.
Defund the police. Give responsibility for policing to BLM (curiously mostly white in the UK, even in Bristol).
Definitely Scotland-England not Ireland or Wales which have very different origins.
There was antisemitism in the Soviet Union, although in a significant sense it only was “waves”, rather than continuous antisemitism.
For example, there was “top down” wave of antisemitism from 1948-53, as a result of Stalin. And then there was a more recent wave of antisemitism from (something like) 1982-1999, after Brezhnev dies.
The second 1980s wave of antisemitism was initiated by elements within the government and “top down” – as part of some government response to “refuseniks”. But then economic collapse and openness of the 1980s, it seems like also a “bottom up” increase in antisemitism, with wide publication antisemitic conspiracy theories from the 1980s. But by 1999, antisemitism was something less fashionable – and with Putin, Russia rapidly became probably the safest country in Europe for Jews.
There were also informal restrictions on Jews entering university in the Soviet Union, particularly in mathematics and science – but these were not total restrictions. The idea was to create a Jewish share in those departments, that was not so much higher than their share in the total population. This was not exactly a very serious kind of antisemitism, and the same as universities in the USA had used (although the quotas to reduce Jewish students flooding the departments were likely more restrictive than in the Russian Empire – they were also more secret).
People such as Karelians and Udmurts are probably more of a comparison with Irish and Welsh in the Russian context.
Been quite a few PMs from Scotland. Can’t answer to their exact ethnicity (and it’s a complicated question), but I’ve heard some Scots jokingly say that the imperial project was forced on England by the Scots.
I assume Karlin’s aims can be selfless.
He is presumably able already to attain the advantages of being a “person of colour” when he was growing up in America, because he looks like he is caucasian, and many Americans don’t understand geography.
If he walks into a dangerous black area of the city during a riot. I would advise him to say to the threatening afroamericans. “I am from Algeria. African unity!” – they might believe it.
But most people in Russia are too much of a typical North European. Looking like an Englishman or a German – the only option still available for affirmative action advantages, is to say you are Native American; if it was successful for Elizabeth Warren.
At least their lack of knowledge, will never considered as a national emergency by the leaders of the country. As a class, rulers had discovered by at least the 19th century, that it might be better that such kind of rabble can stay stupid and gullible.
More weak and powerless people are in their actual life; more such people will demand, or to be hungry for, a vicarious sense of power. Militaristic nationalism and imperialism, is one of the cleverer options available to use by rulers for this part of the rabble, and it can be effective to direct their desire for aggression away from yourself, and perhaps generate some income for Raytheon at the same time.
By the way, I assume the rulers of China are not different in this. Afterall, who are the young Chinese people I have seen in Western Europe, who have nice sneakers, go to expensive restaurants, and live in the luxury apartments. I.e. that spend their parents’ money in Europe? I assume a lot of the might probably be connected to a “Communist” party elite, who ironically have been known to often give a diet of anti-Western jingoism to their rabble.
American ignorance of the rest of the world isn’t a bug, it’s a feature.
People have been complaining about it since the dawn of time. Even Evola whined about their lack of interest in basic geography.
The real question is why do Americans have an obligation to learn about the rest of the world.
More than stickers I was thinking of six sided patches on clothing and eventually striped pajamas.
The more apt comparison is Germany – Austria and Germany – Netherlands.
The Soviet Union treated Ukrainians so badly that three of the Soviet top leaders (Khrushchev, Brezhnev and Chernenko) were either Ukrainian or had strong Ukrainian roots
There’s a rainbow of suspect academics.
Gerald Horne is a competently interesting academic, who I’d never want to see as a department chair, on account of his apparent lack of tolerance towards some other views. He cut me off and out, upon hearing my views on Drew Brees’ comments about taking a knee during the anthem.
The Pyramids were built by Albanians
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXok-oeUEAAZGzS.jpg
I wasn’t talking about gaining a personal advantage. I was referring to the use of victimhood status to defend Russia in the arena or international relations rhetoric.
Every time I see this Terrell Starr character mentioned, it reminds me of the old Soviet joke about the covert CIA agent who gets arrested by the KGB as soon he steps off the plane in Moscow. “I don’t get it”, protests the agent, “I spent years preparing for this mission, studying Russian history, reading Russian literature, conversing with Russians. My Russian language skills are perfect. How did you know I was a CIA agent?”
“It was easy,” answers the KGB agent, “you’re a nigger”.
You greatly underestimate the ancient Finn civilizations
“The ancient Sumerian language in Mesopotamia belongs to the Finno-Ugric.
The world-famous Assyriologist Simo Parpolan, a Professor At the University of Helsinki, claims that the Sumerian language belongs to the Uralic languages, the Uralic language family includes the Finno-Ugric languages.
Simo Parpolan wrote the book “Etymological Dictionary of THE Sumerian LANGUAGE”, which he worked on for eleven years. According to him, the Sumerian and Uralic languages have a basic vocabulary, sounds, pronouns and numbers even more similarities between Finno-Ugric languages.”
https://vk.com/wall-92172_39286
I don’t know about the pyramids, but you can find out from the link below that Ancient Rome was founded by Belarusians, and the Etruscans spoke the ancient Belarusian language
https://yandex.ru/turbo/s/naviny.by/rubrics/society/2008/02/10/ic_articles_116_155468
Actually, you are incorrect. Sumeria was a part of the ancient Korean empire.
https://i.redd.it/ppkqedqu8dl21.png
About first two were myths.
That guy is not a nationalist. He’s a “refugees welcome” type who wants us to accept more people from Iraq because his Uralo-Sumerian work supposedly proves that Assyrians are related to Finns.
The Uralo-Sumerian hypothesis isn’t new and it wasn’t invented by Finns but, as usual, Germanic aristocrats. In the early days of linguistics all agglutinative languages were assumed to be one related family and given that the first few identified agglutinative languages made geographic sense as an “Ural-Altaic” family (Finno-Ugric, Turkic, Mongolic, Manchu, Korean, Japanese) it seemed to confirm the hypothesis.
Once Sumerian was identified as agglutinative it was first grouped together with Ural-Altaic but linguists since then have decided that it’s not enough evidence and even the Ural-Altaic relationship has been abandoned. People keep trying, though, because of course if someone were to prove any connection of Sumerian to some other language that person would become famous (at least among linguists).
It might be interesting to see Idris Elba in the role of Bond, if his job was to figure out the perfect bribes to pay African strongmen in order to extract their mineral resources.
I’ve seen it claimed a few times before on this site that Russians and Ukrainians are as similar as English and Scots, some even claim more similar, but I’m skeptical of that. I mean, to begin with Russian and Ukrainian are recognised by basically all linguists as separate languages and have been for a long time, whereas I’m not aware of any serious linguists who says “Scots” is a separate language to English.
Also, there are Northern English dialects, like Geordie, that are closer to Scots in pronunciation and vocabulary than they are to Southern English, so essentially some of these Russian nationalists here are basically arguing that some native English people are more different to each other than Russians and Ukrainians. That sounds like nonsense to me.
Could be that some of it is colored by comparison to the Caucasians.
But I can understand their desire for unity in the face-off with globohomo.
This would be accurate if
RussiaMuscovy and Ukraine(“-Rus”) had started out as highly distinct ethnocultural entities (e.g. Finnic and Slavic, respectively – as some of the svidomy, but nobody else, insist) with separate statehoods (Act of Union dates to 1707), with the Ukraine gradually coming under Muscovy’s domination and some Ukrainians coming to speak bastardized forms of the Muscovite language (Scots) while others retained the autochthonous Ukrainian (Gaelic). But that’s obviously not what happened.Similar things could be said about the ethnocultural similarities between the Poles and Ukrainians too, but I strongly suspect that you have no problem in seeing distinct enough differences between these two ethnicities that would constitute the formation of separate nationalities? After all, Russians, Ukrainians, Poles and Belorusians all share very similar DNA structures.
Geography always plays a great role in the development of a nationality. The colder harsher climate of the north encouraged more of a communal organizational approach to life for the Russians than for the Ukrainians. The warmer, more fertile lands of the south lended itself to more of an individualistic frontier approach to life. Of course this is a generalization, but I think that there’s some real truth to it all.
Even though there is great similarity in DNA structure, there are some differences. One cannot hide the fact that Russian DNA includes more Finno-Ugric elements and that Ukrainian DNA has more Balkan and Turkic elements.
Sudaca cope
That is Karlin’s Dada sense of humour. Although I feel like much of his blog posts are like some performance art for him, where the audience are supposed to be wondering to what extent he is joking.
Putin was even saying almost something like “diversity is our strength”* last week on television, but the international media is desperate to associate him with “racially insensitive” politicians like Trump. This is where Russia currently pays the costs of political correctness, but poor media communication means not even receiving the “benefits” of virtue signalling from them.
–
*His main view though, of course, is his 19th century, Metternich conservative attitude to any protesting, extremism and instability. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSwgf9JL6WE
For well founded historical, cultural and religious reasons, Russia, Ukraine and Belarus trace their history back to Rus in a way that Poland understandably doesn’t.
Life is performance art, blogging is life.
Northern Russians do have Finno-Ugric admixture, but the majority of Russians are in the same genetic cluster as Ukrainians (and Poles).
The Rus’ lands started off as one ethnocultural unit based on Orthodox and the Rurikid ruling family, and as such became distinct from Catholic Poles starting ~millennium ago.
You may well call Ukrainians a Russian-Polish metis nation (like Belorussians might be perceived as a Russian-Lithuanian metis nation, or Moldovans – a Romanian-Russian metis nation). That would not be inaccurate. But that’s not, in general, what svidomy do. They draw back the roots of the Russian/Ukrainian division back into the mists of time (even AP does this with his references to Vladimir-Suzdal sacking of Kiev, no matter that it was done with Chernigov and Galich allies) and impudently try to appropriate Rus’ history for themselves (the whole Украина-Русь concept).
Scots is obviously a dialect of English but the autochthonous language if the Scottish people isn’t Scots, it’s Scottish Gaelic, which is certainly a different language from English.
Gaelic is hardly more autocthonous to Scotland than Scots; the Gaels arrived in the north-west of Scotland from Ireland only a few hundred years before the Saxons. The true native language of the Picts no longer exists.
Well, AP is correct in harping back to the sacking of Kyiv by Vladimir-Suzdal as an important starting point for a cleavage between the formation of the Great Russian and Ukrainian (Little Rusian) nations. And this event certainly wasn’t back in the “mists of time”, but was very well written about by the chroniclers of the era. Before this, I would state the Rus was a large conglomerate federation of some dozen or so (depending on the time) principalities, that did share some common important attributes, that being religion and a “Scandinavian” ruling dynasty. My “battery is running low”, so I must go into another room to recharge it – please tell me more about the Chernigov and especially Galician input into the sacking of Kiev in 1169. Thanks!
In that conflict, Vladimir-Suzdal had two allies from what is today Ukraine. It also ignores that during that period Kiev was repeatedly sacked by principalities other than VS. Dating the Ukrainian/Russian split to that event is svidomist myth building based on extreme cherry picking.
The aforementioned sacking of Kiev was more along the lines of a civil war (like the US Civil War burning of Atlanta) than two clear foreign entities in conflict.
I’m aware of the input in this conflict of Chernihiv on the side of Vladimir/Suzdal, but I’m still not able to pinpoint Galicia’s role in this war?
There certainly were battles in Rus’ history that took part in the environs of Kyiv, but nothing that equalled the ferocity and looting that took part in 1169 (except of course by the Horde, some 35 years later). You can blame the bookmen that wrote the two chronicles that depict this sacking of Kyiv for presenting the difference of views of these events, that emphasized the cleavage between the northeast and the south central parts of Rus before and after this devastation. The chroniclers of the Kievan Chronicle, deeply lament the savage nature of the norther incursion, plundering churches and monasteries and also including a repudiation of the “primacy of Kiev” that was considered the “mother of Rus cities”. Even the chroniclers of the Suzdal-Vladimirian account indicate that “the sack of Kiev was an event that had never occurred before”:
Can you really blame Ukrainians of AP’s persuasion for seeing this devastating calamity as the beginning of a cleavage between the Northern and Southern Rus, as a catalyst in the development of two separate nationalities? Although the American civil war was fierce in nature, I’ve not read any accounts of it as savage and heartless as the one above.
Funny. Here is the Kiev chronicler
“In the summer of 1203, the Kyevs were taken by Rurik (Rostislavovich) and Olgovichi and Polovtsy and great evil was done over the Russian land and no such evil was done from the very baptism of Kyev.”
then the description of the atrocities “was burned…ransacked..murdered..”
http://expositions.nlr.ru/LaurentianCodex/_Data/Images/sm/i_288.jpg
This is a fair and humorous description of my “content”.
One important addendum is that I am often uncertain as to the extent that I am myself joking, or trolling.
The dispute generally has a clear answer since from that era there was “The Lay of Igor’s Campaign” where the author describes what was then considered Russian land. This description begins with the Principality of Vladimir. Karlin is absolutely right
http://lib.ru/NABOKOW/slovo.txt
Inside out have the times
turned.
Now in Rim [people] scream
under Kuman sabers,
495 and Volodimir [screams]
under wounding blows.
Woe and anguish to you,
[Volodimir]
son of Gleb!
500 afar
to safeguard the paternal golden
throne?
For you can with your oars
scatter in drops the Volga,
505 and with your helmets
scoop dry the Don.
If you were here,
a female slave would fetch
one nogata,
510 and a male slave,
one rezana;
for you can shoot on land live
bolts-
[these are] the bold sons of
Gleb!
So, you’re only reinforcing what I wrote? “No such evil” doesn’t mean that no evil was done, but that an evil so great, that it could not be compared with any other evil ever done to Kiev before then.
Indeed, the chroniclers at times referred to a greater Rus that encompassed the outlying principalities like Vladmir and Galych, but at other times referred only to the original much smaller area that only encompassed Kiev, Chernihiv and Pereyeslav.
Quite true. But you missed one detail – the quoted Kievan chronicler tells about the looting and destruction of Kiev which was carried out by the South Russian Prince Rurik and his allies in 1203
“Heartland Russians” (those from the Golden Ring areas that were the basis of Muscovy-Russia) while not as Finnic as northern Russians are nevertheless more Finnic than Central Russians/Southern Russians/Ukrainians/Poles.
This idea is somewhat mythological. There were various Slavic tribes and a few Finnic ones who were subjugated by Viking adventurers. These tribes might very well had spoken different dialects even before their forced union within the Rus state. Although the Slavs living there adopted the name Rus and the Orthodox faith, the Rus state was not some sort of centralized nation-state, or even a feudal state, but a rather loosely run one based on trade. Prince Sviatoslav was so loosely tied to the East Slavs whom he ruled that he tried moving his capital to Bulgaria because it was more convenient for trade. It wasn’t much of an East Slavic nation-building project.
The Vikings eventually got Slavicized but after a only a couple of generations this state devolved into warring principalities. The unity of this loose state ended in 1132 after Mstslav of Kiev’s death. The principalities then engaged in brutal wars against each other, often with foreign help. Objectively speaking it’s not a very solid foundation on which to build this idea of “Ukrainians and Russians are one ancient people.”
Accurate, although “Russian” in the sense of “Rus”, not “Russian” in the sense of actual Russians (who come from Suzdalians).
While doing so is inaccurate, it’s no different from Russians doing the same thing.
No analogy is identical, but roughly speaking the relationship of Ukraine and Russia to the Rus state is like that of France to the Frankish Empire. Note that Charlemagne is not generally described as a Frenchman:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Charlemagne/King-of-the-Franks
That was a large turning point (not just the sack but the subsequent resistance by locals in Kiev against the northern-imposed overlords who were described as nasty outsiders) but was not the only one. And in terms of there supposedly once being some sort of ancient Rus nation-state, there wasn’t much material to be “split” in the first place.
The reality is that Russian ethnogenesis begins sometime in the 12th-14th centuries in areas based on Suzdal with expansion throughout Eurasia, Ukrainians in the 14th-16th in what is now west and central Ukraine, with expansion to the adjacent southern steppes. Both peoples mythologize their nations as being continuations of the defunct Rus. Russian nationalists use this mythology to claim that Ukrainians are Russians; Ukrainians use it to exclude Russians from Rus heritage.
Prince of Chernihiv and his Cuman (Turkic) allies who brutally seized Kiev from the Galicians.
Yeah, Rus was a “nation-state” lol.
Well, I guess that if you were a Kievan or a chronicler, the most recent sacking that had a negative effect on your own well being was viewed as the “the most evil and destructive sacking since the beginning of time” !
But I get your point.
The “South Russian” prince as you call him also spent a stint as the prince of Novgorod too (1170 -1171). He also sat on the throne of the Great Prince of Kiev at least seven different times. The job vacancies that these princes had to fulfill were very tenuous, so I hope that their pension plans were decent and made up for all of the hassle of constant warfare and moving from place to place. 🙂
Highlighted for emphasis, Gaelic is indeed more “native” than Scots.
Anyways, the Picts, being a Celtic people, were the ethnic cousins of the Gaels, and their language and culture are thus more closely connected to the autochtonous, Gaelic Scottish than the English and their dialects.