In my previous post, I posted this map of how comfortable Europeans are regarding love relationships of their children in regards to race, and AP provided the original stats.
I am always a bit saddened that Russia doesn’t participate in the Eurobarometer polls, but fortunately, I found that VCIOM asked rather similar questions in polls from 2002 and 2010.
The methodology is a bit different. Eurobarometer defined “being comfortable” if one of your children was in a love relationship with [member of ethnic group] and you rated your level of Comfort with that in the region of 7-10 (out of 10), or indifference. The Russian poll asks if you would approve, disapprove, or be indifferent towards one of your close relatives (son, daughter, grandkid) marrying [member of ethnic group].
I think the questions are close enough for direct comparisons to be meaningful by summing the percentage of Russians who either approve or are indifferent.
| % Russians ok with kids marrying: | 2002 | 2010 |
| Russians | 96% | 96% |
| Ukrainians, Belorussians | 83% | 82% |
| Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians | 61% | 57% |
| Georgians, Armenians, Azeris | 38% | 37% |
| Central Asians | 38% | 33% |
| Jews | 49% | 47% |
| Chechens | 28% | 28% |
| Germans, Frenchs, English | 66% | 61% |
| Americans | . | 55% |
| Arabs | . | 29% |
In terms of marriage preferences, Russians seem to be less philo-Semitic than Poles, about the same as Czechs, Lithuanians, and Romanians, and more philo-Semitic than Slovaks.
They are also fully within the bands of normality for Eastern Europe so far as marriages with Muslims go.
If Chechens could be considered proxies for Africans, Russians would be as “based” on that question as any in Eastern Europe (though far less so than 1950s Americans).
If Chechens could be considered proxies for Africans
LOL
Most depressing post I’ve read in a long time.
Why are Czechs and Slovaks so much better than everyone else?
But can they? Chechens seem to be far worse in some ways. If your daughter married an African, I’d think the main worry would be that he’ll be a lazy loser and eventually disappear once children have been born, not paying any child support and leaving your daughter as a single parent with mixed-race kids. With Chechens the worries would be more like that your daughter will have to convert to Islam, being controlled and brainwashed in all manner of ways, and eventually perhaps be murdered in an honor killing.
At least that’s probably the thought process many people in Europe have regarding the potential acceptability of blacks and Muslims as sons in law.
http://siberiantimes.com/other/others/features/f0261-weve-come-for-your-women-chinese-men-seek-siberian-brides/
Love relationship is easier when he is rich. Cambodia had to ban their women marrying much older Westerners.
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/7olfzd/how_comfortable_europeans_are_regarding_love/dsad1jd/
The questions in Czech were poorly phrased, so I wouldn’t take the results at face-value. If you ever visited Prague, you’d find it hard to believe those are the values. I saw far more women with mixed-race children than in Warsaw. Prague may be a bubble, but it is a large percentage of the total population. Much larger than Warsaw. Brno is a beautiful city, and I saw the same thing there.
In general, it’s better if we look at a battery of polls. Fondapol did an exhaustive survey last spring. You can download the whole thing here:
http://www.fondapol.org/en/data-fondapol/data-fondapol-what-next-for-democracy/
You also have the survey from Pew. Neither asks directly about relationships but they do ask directly about non-white immigration, specifically from MENA and SSA. Generally speaking, CZ/SK/HU do best but the difference between them and the 2nd tier (like PL) is not huge. This is also more consistent with other findings.
CBOS – our premier public opinion institute – has been running a poll asking questions on refugee sentiments for quite a long while, specifically from MENA/SSA. It’s something like 75% against, 20% in favour and 5% neutral. Most polls suggest that opposition actually goes up with youth rather than with older age.
The numbers in Fondapol suggests that Czech/Slovak opposition is closer to 85-87% rather than “only” 75% you’d see in Poland via CBOS. Which lends credence to the idea that they are more hardline on immigration. But the difference between 85% and 75% is hardly as huge as those eurobarometer polls, which is why it is an outlier. It’s also consistent with what you see in the Pew Research poll:
http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2017/05/05161334/PF_17.05.10_centralEasternEurope_homogeneity420px.png
CZ on top, but PL not far behind. Russia at the bottom.
They’ve bundled Georgians Armenians and Azeris together, I wonder what the results would be if they were done sperately.
There’s some polling data about what they think, the site is a bit sjwish, but interesting
http://crrc-caucasus.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/forbidden-love-attitudes-toward.html?m=1
CBOS typically translate their opinion surveys with a time-lag of 3-4 months and the latest poll on refugees came out in early December of 2017. Key graph is this:
https://i.imgur.com/JKAF3fh.png
I don’t think I have to tell you what the colors mean. The full document asks about refugees in general(and in a Polish context this would include Ukrainians) so I hand-picked that graph which only asks about MENA/SSA.
The moment in late 2015 when acceptance increased was the prime “dead Arab children on the beach” massive propaganda push. Still interesting that opposition, despite it all, managed a small lead. Perhaps more fundamentally, those strongly opposed (deep red) were far more numerous than those strongly in favour (deep green). This suggests that support was very fleeting and shallow and mostly driven by massive propaganda. And indeed that seems to have been the case, since acceptance has completely collapsed.
It’s too early to see if we’ll converge on a steady 85% opposition á la Czech but the trendline is going that way.
The young voted for right-wing parties in much greater numbers than the old, so that is a sign. Maybe we’re simply seeing “progress by funerals” at play in that graph.
If there are any Polish speakers, here’s the source document: http://www.cbos.pl/SPISKOM.POL/2017/K_163_17.PDF
Literally 0% of Azeris approve of marriage with Armenians, LOL. Impressively monolithic.
4% of Russians don’t want their kids marrying Russians?
Thanks for the data heavy post.
I would quibble with the last take, that Russia being close to the bottom has much significance. IMO melanf is correct here.
Not as bad as 19% of Slovenians not wanting their kids to marry white people.
https://i.redd.it/znzzzwri4i801.png
Can’t that mean something along the lines of white people from outside Slovenia, that is foreigners from other European countries? Seems hardly credible one fifth of Slovenians would be against marrying other Slovenians.
Probably these 4% are citizens of Russia, but not ethnic Russian
The only Slovenian I know of picked a rather strange husband.
The lol button is not working…
BTW, I want to adress something which I felt was an unspoken assumption of AK. It was also brought up by Swedish_Family. Namely the theory of “creeping liberalism”. First feminism -> LGBT -> Multiculturalism. That’s the theory.
But if that is the case, how is this explained?
https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/map-east-europe-support-for-gay-marriage.png
Czechia is quite liberal on gay marriage. If this “creeping liberalism” thesis was accurate, how do you square their very strong opposition on refugees (as a strong marker of multiculturalism). The orthogonal example is Russia, which has very strong opposition to gay marriage yet has quite relaxed views on diversity.
Yes, you have countries like Sweden which is ultra-liberal on both, but there isn’t such a clear-cut rule as both AK and Swedish_Family argued. Another historical example would be the US. They had a very strong religious right for a long time, yet opened the gates to non-white immigration in 1965. Taiwan recently approved gay marriage yet have minimal refugee migration and even regular work migration is quite limited. The whole “liberal in one sphere will necessarily creep into the other” is not a clear-cut conclusion. There are too many countries which are either deeply homophobic but are soft on diversity or pro-gay marriage but has quite harsh immigration norms.
I was there last year. It was full of hijabs. (I think Malays.) Complete with a Muslim prayer room at the airport.
Black male/white female and vice versa is what I saw in two television ads today in the NFL playoff games. No asian/white or white/latino relationships. Come to think of it, its seems like black/white is the one that’s pushed the most in advertisements specifically.
Amazon echo was one, it also featured biracial children. Their full ad campaign is on Youtube. Taco bell was the other.
OT: Google put out an interesting blog about the advancement in ML/AI this past year. It’s interesting reading:
https://research.googleblog.com/2018/01/the-google-brain-team-looking-back-on.html
Bonus map:
https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/H2WAyay.png
I’ll admit Brazil was a surprise to me. Also thought India (especially Bangalore) would be stronger.
Question is if they are getting citizenship or not, or only shipped in to do short-term labour. Also, “full of” is a very subjective assessment. The stats don’t bear it out.
Korea and Taiwan both import quite a number of work-related migrants but that translating into getting citizenship is a minuscule amount. That is the crucial difference with a lot of Western countries. It’s the latter which counts. Look at the naturalisation data in Taiwan. It’s very marginal. Ditto Korea.
Prague is a ‘bubble’. It also has a few tens of thousands resident foreigners, students, and also is overrun by tourists in the city center. I am not sure you can visually judge much by what you see walking around. Prague amounts to 12-13% of Czech R, more than Warsaw in Poland, but not significant statistically.
Measuring attitudes is imprecise, I agree that 75% or 85% is roughly the same. I think one has to combine attitudes with willingness to fight (resist) and the geographic circumstances. By those measures, Czech R. is more exposed to mass migration than Poland or Slovakia.
People get fooled by the low percentage of migrants often claiming that 2-5% is very small, or that 85% majority native (e.g. like Russia) is stable. When you look at the age, gender and geographic distribution it is not that good. E.g., even 30,000 migrants if they are mostly young males living in 1-2 biggest cities is very destabilising. My rule of thumb is that to maintain cultural continuity and avoid problems, any migrant groups should be less than 2-5% of the relevant age and gender group in that city. By that standard, Prague is already slipping into migrant mess. The point is to facilitate assimilation and even intermarriage, it works well with 1 out of 20, it doesn’t with 1 out of 5.
As always, I would point out that the biggest single risk factor are re-emigres from Western Europe who can relatively easily migrate east and then bring in their families from the Third World.
Combine this with the most important chart in the world and it looks like the white race is headed for rapid extinction.
And, as usual, Eastern Europe is a scientific desert.
India doesn’t surprise me – it has 1.2 billion people with the scientific output of a Spain or Italy – though Brazil does (slightly) to the upside.
Is the map corrected for the lower population density?
The question was about ethnic Russians (русские), who are about 80% of Russian citizens. Since 2% of respondents said they disapproved and 2% said it’s difficult to say, this must mean that most minority respondents were ok with their kids marrying ethnic Russians.
The Czechs have very liberal attitudes when it comes to sexual issues and religion is mostly absent in public life so their attitude to gay marriage would not be a surprise. They also remember what it was like to be invaded by a foreign power so are keen to keep strong control of their borders. Maybe the ’56 experience also explains Hungary’s stance on this.
Great mongering guide, Thanks Tole.
Relevant to Korea:
https://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2012/04/reflections-on-revolution-in-south.html
And perhaps its worthwhile to muse a bit on why social liberalism always seems to spread to various other institutions, and one major reason I feel is that extremist elements in any subculture ultimately drive the dialogue. Its the nature of organizations: you won’t be able to have “moderate homosexual lobby” without it becoming the “gay lobby”, which inevitably will seek outside support in order to advance their agenda. All organizations except explicitly rightist organizations tend drift left – innately leftist organizations drift left even faster. Virtue spiraling is pretty much the norm these days.
In a democracy, this works even more swiftly, if naturalizing voters is going to give your organization the edge, then that is the correct thing to do for your party. The methods of players are determined by the rules of the game. In this sense, gays are one of the most toxic elements to long-term society since as they do not have children, they do not have any personal need to sacrifice for an undefined future, but rather seek maximal freedom and safety for their activities. This means that they will seek divergent goals from others with families and children.
Seriously though, no they couldn’t. Chechens are at least genetically “white”, despite their Africa-tier tribalism.
Not clear to me how the scoring system is reflected in the percentage, seems like if you said 7 you get bracketed the same as if you said 10, so why bother with ten options instead of just three?
Almost every British ad over Christmas seems to be black male white female. They know what they are doing, people are simple minded and TV can make them believe anything. Almost all these changes are media led.
I knew a couple of Czech women who were unable to talk about their childhood experiences because at the time the culture was so repressive that people reported even family members. Whereas in Romania I was told academics would go for walks in the park to talk but otherwise life was ok. In Macedonia I was told people felt safe and happy. Different experiences of Eastern Bloc. Maybe CzechSlovak experience left the people wary of strangers, including social scientists waving papers at them.
This chart doesn’t make sense to me with regards to Islam because it’s putting the question in the wrong category. There are plenty of, say, Syrian Muslims that wouldn’t want their kids marrying a Gulf Arab or a Pakistani (my brother lost out on a prospect because of this) or a Senegalese. Hell – some don’t want their kids marrying outside their village or extended family. That does not mean they don’t want their kids marrying a non-Muslim – they certainly do.
I would be interested if the question was asked in a two part; 1. Would you be OK with your kid marrying a Muslim, and 2. What if they were from your own ethnic background.
That would help figure out whether the issue is Islam or the perceived potential cultural divide.
Peace.
Nobody has mentioned the anti-immigrant Dutch politician, who was openly gay.
He did not last.
I would only add that it’s not even the whole Prague. Only Old town, some parts of Smichov and Vinohrady around Riegers orchards, or more simply, places with the highest concentrations of hipster caffes and burger joints (don’t get me wrong, I lived in Vinohrady for many years and I love it, but it’s what it is). It is a very different world once you hop on the tube direction South city or even Zizkov, which borders on the centrum.
I would also add that Prague has a HUGE enclave of Slovaks and in the last 10 years, Ukrainians and Russians(some universities offer full programs in russian at least since 2010;many central asian types). I think it will be less than 10% of Czechia whole.
Also of note, Moravians (capital Brno) are a little bit of a different breed from the north (Prague) – they are even more based, like the Slovaks.
Most of our science is done by our diaspora.
Why doesn’t Trump’s favorite country participate in these polls?
Asian American incels take note. More seriously: it’s not money as much as behavior. Simple farmers and shopkeepers get Russian wives in the Far East just fine. As women write on forums, Chinese men are generally polite, not heavy drinkers and good dads (yeah, I know how they treated baby girls under one child policy, but it didn’t apply if one parent was a foreign citizen). Russians sadly tend to be apathetic “couch dads” who leave all the burden of childrearing on women, hence the joke: “I grew up in a typical same-sex family of mom and grandma”. If Russian guys in the Far East changed their behavior as they already do in more developed regions (where coincidentally no girl wants a Chinese husband), they would obviously be the better option, given the shared language and culture and looks/size advantage.
Yeah – that is kind of a stretch. I would imagine Arabs would be closer of a proxy for obvious reasons. But the next part of the sentence is intriguing, at least to me:
I’m not sure what qualifies for “based” but this question doesn’t seem to get to the meat of it. So for instance, maybe people don’t want their kids marrying fat people or would rather have their daughter marry a Latvian pro ice-hockey player or a Georgian scientist over a Russian street sweeper. But going deeper, what exactly are they willing to do about it? Comparing to post-WW2 America doesn’t seem sound because parts of America actually put their opinion into legal practice with anti-miscegenation laws. I think the better question is, would they be willing to have legal restrictions on these things – because otherwise it’s just opinions; maybe you don’t want your kids getting into goth or heavy-metal lifestyles but kids do a bunch of stuff their parents don’t like.
For instance, if you ask me; would I like my daughter marrying a non-Muslim – the answer is – no.
If you ask me; are you willing to support laws to legally annul the marriage if she does – hell yes!
Peace.
It is not like Prague was always as Czech dominated as in the last decades.
That’s what Scott Alexander calls the Lizardman Constant. In most polls, 3-5% of people will agree (or disagree) with literally any question you might ask.
Except apparently Armenian-Azeri intermarriage.
Also Jörg Haider in Austria, but he kept it on the down low.
“Considering blacks, I recall an episode from the life of my alma mater, Moscow State University of Economics, Statistics and Informatics. About 1979, there was an emergency in the Young Communist League committee – a group of foreign students (blacks and Arabs) told the dean’s office Soviet girls were racist. Namely, they refused to sleep with them for free. They were told: no, the girls aren’t racist, they’re just decent Soviet Young Communists and don’t put out before marriage. The offended blacks and Arabs replied: no, they put out for their own for free, but with us they’re willing only for jeans and other clothes. And then there was a closed Young Communist League meeting where they were asked to treat brotherly nations with understanding, to not dishonor themselves as Soviet Young Communists but also not provoke an international scandal. I know it from my female friend who lived in the dorm and had a personal talk with one of the leading Young Communists.”
https://germanych.livejournal.com/65673.html
You can put gays back to the closets. You can’t do that with with black, brown and yellow people.
You keep bringing the same point and I like it. Nationalists should try to bring LGBTs into their movement or at least to not treat them as their enemies. It can be a tactical move just like the alliance with the Zionist Islamophobes. Racial pollution in the post-WWII and post-Rwanda world is practically irreversible while gays can always be put back into comfortable closets once social mores change.
Brazil’s southern provinces are stocked with ethnic Europeans. I believe that is where most of their engineering and scientific research takes place. Not really a surprise. I am surprised that Seattle isn’t a bit more red, though.
OT Any idea why Latvia seems to be such a crime hotspot?
3 girls have been killed, in separate attacks, by Latvians within a couple of miles of my home in West London (and all three murderes were ethnic Latvians, not Russian).
Did Latvians have a bad reputation in the USSR, or are they “not sending us their best”?
As part of Tito’s Yugoslavia, Macedonia was not part of the Eastern Bloc.
If you ask me; are you willing to support laws to legally annul the marriage if she does – hell yes!
Where does your father-in-law and mother-in-law fall on this question?
Hey iffen,
They didn’t care either way. I mean, I did everything by the book – we never dated. I courted my wife and I visited them and asked their permission if I could pursue their daughter for marriage – we don’t mess around – we are straight forward on this subject. Any Muslim who does go behind a girl’s parents’ back should be shunned and immediately disqualified as a potential partner. Everything was out on the table; who I was, my background, what field of study I was pursuing, etc. If they would have refused me, I would have left it alone – I wouldn’t have asked whether it was because I was from a Pakistani background or whatever.
My guess is – though I haven’t asked them directly – they appreciated me getting their permission to court their daughter rather than being a sleaze and trying to get into her pants after a night of partying.
One must live by the code they want others to; I expect nothing less from my potential son-in-law. I’ve told my daughter, any boy who is not man enough to come directly to me first to ask my permission to court you is automatically out. And if I don’t give my permission, I expect him not to go behind my back and pursue it anyway.
Peace.
Well, at least you have given your daughter the options: bring home a Muslim or go behind my back.
LOL! Actually bring home an acceptable Muslim or go behind my back. If I know her well as I think I do, she won’t break her dad’s heart – inshaAllah.
But if she does go behind my back, then I take responsibility for not raising her right and the ramifications of living in a mostly non-Muslim country.
A good friend just married off his daughter in SoCal. A young man who was a year older than her and went to the same highschool asked for her hand and it was accepted. He’s on the med-school track.The whole process from start to finish took around 4 months.
Peace.
Also, a very interesting article a friend sent out about how the Turkish embassy caused a scene in the 1940’s DC because the ambassador’s sons were hosting non-segregated jazz parties in the embassy and allowing Black musicians through the front door:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-chord-of-jazz-history-to-echo-at-turkish-embassy/2011/02/03/ABXEP5E_story.html?utm_term=.ce1756ff8771
Heavens to Mergatroid!!!
Peace.
@ want to adress something which I felt was an unspoken assumption ..the theory of “creeping liberalism”. First feminism -> LGBT -> Multiculturalism. ..That’s the theory. But if that is the case, how is this explained?
That’s a great question, and I think answering it is what best would help us understand where the true political lines are today.
My starting assumption is that the end target is a global government.
To that end, you have to change/overthrow the existing order in Western societies, best summed up by the pithy ” God, King and Country” + family. These 4 ideas have underpinned the West for centuries.
‘King’ was taken out after WWI. Democracy as legitimate government was substituted, with no turning back. But democracy breaks down when citizens are isolated, without subsidiarity. Democracies can be bought.
“Country”, understood as one people in one territory, was slowly substituted by ‘nation-state’. This then evolved into “states”. Multiculturalism is the instrument to undermine country.
“Family”, understood as one man, one woman & their children, is an institution peculiar to the West. Its basic cell. Feminism was the first destructive wedge. Gender ideology (LGTB) and ‘white male’ identitarianism is the coup de grace.
Multiculturalism DOES NOT “follow” gender ideology or vice-versa. Both are the instruments currently used overthrow ‘the West’. Its central tenets and institutions. The institutions that protect the individual from the tyranny of a Super-State.
The globalist social contract (if it can be called that), is typified through the semi-globalist institutions (EU, the whole multilateral system) and then pushed at the national level, depending on what is needed. The scenario for Czechs is different than for USA.
@ Nationalists should try to bring LGBTs into their movement or at least to not treat them as their enemies.
Perhaps on a case by case basis. But two objections. The gay agenda undercuts the family, which is where whites reproduce. Less whites, more miscegenation. There must be a number somewhere about ‘critical mass’ before miscegenation. Also, gays like novelty, diversity, subversiveness. Multiculturalism is right up their alley.
I have a couple of gay acquaintances who both independently say they feel “citizens of the world”. One wants to raise his ‘son’ as such. Love of country seems provincial to them.
The problem is that you can’t. Cultural degeneracy is virtually impossible to reverse. Feminism is equally irreversible. For all practical purposes once you achieve decadence it’s permanent. And the birth rate continues to fall. A society that no longer reproduces is doomed. It’s just a walking corpse.
Hey dfordoom,
I would have to disagree my friend. I can guarantee you that many places in the Muslim world were much more feminist-friendly and totally on the road to pozzville in the sixties and seventies. Females were wearing skirts and all that jazz. Turkey is a good example same with Egypt and parts of Central Asia after Soviet collapse. But it was turned around, if some Muslim countries were able to do it, Europe can too. It just may be a longer slog here to fix things because of different circumstances.
I know your handle has the word “doom” in it, but be more optimistic. 🙂
Peace.
Non-feminist traditional women try hard to reproduce but don’t get any help and become exhausted wrecks. I’d rather see solutions for this than endless and fruitless laments about morality:
Dear Vox Day, we’re already Mothering Up, but society is not Communitying Up
https://thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/2015/02/17/dear-vox-day-were-already-mothering-up-but-society-is-not-communitying-up/
On topic, this blogger is a black woman married to a white man. I wish them well.
I think religion is the only thing that can reverse decadence. You could argue that Christianity made the Roman Empire less decadent. It didn’t do the Western Empire any good but it may have been a factor in the survival of the Eastern Empire for another thousand years or so.
I’m not sure that it can be achieved without religion. Maybe a secular religion like Marxism could do it?
Was the Soviet Union less decadent than the Czarist Empire? Was Communist China less decadent than China before the Revolution? I honestly don’t know enough about the social conditions and culture of pre-Revolution Russia and China to have an opinion on that question.
I don’t see a Christian revival in Europe’s future. Given the incredibly pozzed nature of modern Christianity a Christian revival might well make things worse.
Anon to anon: this woman should appreciate “family” as institution first, because nobody appreciates a complainer. Morality and family go hand in hand.
What’s Trump’s favorite country?
Takes 2 to make a baby.
I thought the old Soviet Union imported part black Cuban professional girls for the black and Arab students?
The SU was decadent in some ways and murderous in more. Brought by the Judeo-Freemason Lenin-Trotsky,
helped by Schiff and Fabian Socialists.
They were killing Christians especially early years, abortions was spread most of the time, (not sure on faggotry in the early days).
The SU always had problems with abortions, and it continues to today in Russia, just significant decline compared to the peak years. They still have a hiv/aids thing apparently 1/100 people.
As for Muslims and Christians…
The Muslims had had majority Muslims and influence..
The West is Freemasonic and Jewish money hungry.
Take your pick Soros, Muslims, faggotry, and cries of antisemitism,
or Israel, wars, sucking up to USA and cries of antisemitism.
It will take a miracle for Europe to be normal.
Either the US, or Israel.
I find it hard to believe that most Italians would be comfortable seeing there children partner up with a black. The countries has been inundated with hundreds of thousands of them, most of whom end up committing serious crimes.
I remember reading about the mafia gunning down a bunch of nigerians in a baraber shop, there was a lot of outrage not becuase of what happened but because nobody in Italy cared.
And then there was another incident couple years later where an Italian shop worker killed two blacks in cold blood, again nobody really cared.
Imagine if that happened in England or some cucked nordic country? There would have been parlimentary debates, anti racists laws passed and more aid money to africa.