Thorfinnsson called it!
So my 2 cents worth about Ron Unz’s latest article questioning the standard narrative about the Holocaust…
1. Where I am coming from. I am not exactly a philo-Semite. Indeed, I qualify as an anti-Semite by the ADL’s standards, and RationalWiki would confirm.
In general, I consider that Russians have quite a number of things to be unhappy about with Jews, from their massive overrepresentation in the NKVD to their current zeal in agitating against Russia. While Russians are far more philo-Semite than your average East-Central European, American Jews absolutely hate Russia. There is little reason for me as a self-identifying Russian nationalist to be particularly philo-Semitic (except to perhaps learn from them).
I have not read any of the serious literature specifically on the Holocaust, though I have read a lot on WW2. To be frank I don’t find Jews or the Holocaust to be terribly interesting in general.
2. I do think the Holocaust happened and is accurate in terms of order of magnitude.
Ultimately, it is not a question of precisely how many (4 million, 1 million, or 10,000) died at Auschwitz, or the finer details of how Zyklon B works. It is a question of censuses, now and then.
Those Jews in East-Central Europe vanished sometime between 1941 and 1945. The American Jewish population only increased from 4.8 million to 5.0 million between 1940 and 1950 – a slower rate of increase than during the preceding or following decade. There was obviously no large influx of European Jews into America during that decade. There were 630,000 Jews in Palestine in 1947, versus 175,000 in 1931; again, not sufficient to explain the disappearance of millions of European Jews. There were 3,028,538 Jews in the USSR according to the 1939 Census, but only 2,266,334 in the 1959 one (despite the demographic catastrophe of WW2, even the ethnic Russian population expanded by 15% between these two dates); this was also before the start of Soviet Jewish emigration to the West. Where did they go?
Until someone can properly answer that question, one can only assume that they indeed mostly vanished in the killing fields of the western USSR and the death camps of Poland while under Nazi occupation. Consequently, the standard narrative is correct on the order of magnitude of Jewish deaths in the Holocaust, whether that number is closer to 6 million or to 4 million. While the “The 6 Million” is certainly a major soundbyte, my understanding is that serious academic estimates have been converging to the 5-6 million range.
Am I a neocohen Ziocuck and/or careerist opportunist for believing in “The 5 +/- 1 Million”? Why of course I am. Writing realistically about Putin’s Russia, covering race differences in IQ, and making fun of sovoks is exactly what I would be doing to maximize my social reputation and career opportunities in both Russia and the West. The alternate, utterly fantastical explanation is that I try to honestly assess reality, with a preference for numbers over rhetoric. 😐
3. I agree with the great bulk of Ron Unz’s points, and have indeed written about some of them myself.
(1) There is indeed a Holocaust industry that is largely promoted by Jewish activists, which is weaponized against critics of Jewish influence in the US.
I also agree that it is cynically used to promote Israel to the detriment of Palestinians, as well as to foster aggression against Syria and Iran. By some measures, Bibi might be prosecuted as a Holocaust denier himself for ascribing blame for the Holocaust to the Mufti of Jerusalem.
My assessment is that the Jews managed to sacralize the Holocaust because of their combination of ethnocentrism and high verbal IQ. But of course it being real would have made that fundamentally intellectual project much easier, not harder.
That said, Unz’s observation that the Holocaust has become a sort of secular religion of neoliberalism.txt is cogently made, and quite convincing.
(2) Tsarist Russia’s hostility to Jewry has been grossly exaggerated, and Ron Unz is to be commended for narrowing down the deep historical roots of The 6 Million which stretches to the era of the pogroms (TIL!). In reality, the infamous “pogroms” were never sanctioned by the Russian state, and their Jewish victims numbered in the low thousands over a period of decades. That’s comparable in scale to modern era communal riots in India. This did not prevent, and indeed was substantially the result of, the Jews’ own virulent hostility to the Russian state. According to Interior Minister Plehve, 40% of Russia’s revolutionaries in the early 1900s were Jews.
(3) Jews indeed played a highly disproportionate role in establishing and maintaining the Bolshevik regime, at least in its early – and bloodiest – phase. Considering the regime’s destruction of Russian culture, and the partial extermination of the Russian intelligentsia and aristocracy during that period, they can indeed be considered as important – though far from exclusive – players in a genocide against Russians during the Lenin/Stalin period.
This was a genocide from which Jews themselves profited. In his book, Slezkine has a quote where a Russian intellectual remarks that the premier Russian university is now in Prague, whereas Moscow University has become Jewish. Hardly surprising, competing as the Jews were not with the Russian elites, but with affirmative action Russian proles and dim ethnic minorities.
Anti-Semite is a class enemy.
(4) On average, Western Jewish animosity against Putin’s Russia is far worse than during the USSR, and comparable to that during the Tsarist era – even though Russia has never been more philo-Semitic since the 1920s, when Chekist SJWs could send you to jail or worse for calling them kikes). The influential Jewish journalist Julia Ioffe believes that simply talking about Russians’ contributions to victory in WW2 is anti-Semitic. Indeed, one might speculate like Ron Unz does that perhaps the only way Western Jews could be made to like Russia would be if they were to install Khodorkovsky as President and blow up all the churches again.
(5) The criminalization of Holocaust denial is of course illiberal and hypocritical per se, and will probably be used to progressively criminalize more and more “controversial” spheres as long as Neo-Communism/SJWism continues to make gains in the West.
Obviously Unz is absolutely correct on that. See my tags on Censorship and Freedom of Speech.
Incidentally, this makes Israel Shamir’s support for jailing Russian nationalists under Article 282 (Russia’s hate speech law equivalent) all the more baffling and counterproductive. Now that, as he himself reports, Russia has put on trial its first ever Holocaust denier, Roman Yushkov. Talk of sawing off the branch you sit on.
For our part, it seems pretty obvious that nationalists anywhere should vigorously defend the human rights of Holocaust deniers, regardless of our own perspectives on this issue.
4. However, there are also some arguments – those that deal with the Holocaust directly – that are pretty weak:
(1) The waning of attention to the Holocaust from the 1950s-60s does not prove it didn’t happen; it is the natural progression of historical awareness. For instance, do people talk about Yekatit 12 these days? I assume most readers had to Google that. The reason is that Ethiopians don’t have the IQ or demographic presence in the West to sacralize their genocide, as the Jews started to successfully do from the 1970s. The Armenians – closely related to Jews, very good at networking and lobbying, but less intelligent and not as rich – also managed to do something similar. But they had to piggyback on Jewish success with the Holocaust to accomplish it, and their success was far less total; recognition of the Armenian Genocide (which also happened) is subject to the whims of Realpolitik in a way that the Holocaust isn’t.
(2) Not exactly a secret that Gypsies have very high fertility rates. That Eastern Europe was “still filled with vast numbers of unexterminated Gypsies” after the Iron Curtain went down is no surprise given that they had half a century to replenish their numbers, while Jews were not only not breeding (they had the lowest fertility rate of any ethnic group in the USSR), but also emigrating in large numbers.
(3) There were indeed Jewish officers in the German military in WW2. There were also German officers with Jewish or part-Jewish wives. 99%+ of German Jews were neither officers, nor officers’ wives.
(4) The 5 million Nazi murders of non-Jews is perfectly plausible (this is aside from semantic questions of whether this should be considered part of a Greater Holocaust). Soviet POWs alone would account for 3.3 million of them. There were 2-3 million ethnic Poles who also died. Considering that occupied Belorussia and western Russia also lost ~20% of their population during the Nazi occupation, it is, if anything, a large underestimate.
(5) I have not read Norman Finkelstein to any extent, so I am only going on what Ron Unz says his argument is. But there being hundreds of thousands of Holocaust survivors in 2009 is perfectly plausible. There were perhaps 9 million Jews in Europe in 1942. Assume that around 1.5-2 million of them “survived” the Holocaust (i.e. lived through a country that was under Nazi occupation). For instance, in Sweden, there were 435,000 0-4 year olds and 416,000 5-9 year olds in 1940; by 2010, there were 379,000 70-74 year olds and 304,000 75-79 year olds for those respective cohorts. That’s a combined survival rate of 80% of 0-9 year old Swedish children in 1940 as of 2010. The Swedish population back then was around a bit more than 6 million, so by extension, assume this translated into 200,000 Jewish 0-9 year old children who survived the Holocaust (let’s assume an older Jewish age structure, since the Jews were more urban than the Swedes). Making reasonable assumptions about post-Holocaust Jewish mortality rates, this would easily make for well more than 100,o00 Holocaust survivors in 2009 even just within that single ten year cohort.
(6) Norman Finkelstein’s specific role in dismantling Joan Peters’ claims that the Palestinians were not native to Palestine is commendable, and also something I learned specifically from Ron Unz. That said, isn’t this a fundamentally optimistic event – an example of the truth winning out over hyperbolically false propaganda?
The repercussions on Finkelstein himself (“completely blacklisted by his Princeton department and the wider academic community”) were reprehensible – and a further argument for free speech absolutism.
5. Conclusions
(1) I think the Holocaust happened; if not 6 million, then something in that order of magnitude. Certainly above 3 million, anyway. Probably around 5 million.
Otherwise we have to assume there was a global conspiracy to falsify census results after 1945 (even though the Holocaust only started becoming sacralized from the 1970s).
(2) Although Ron Unz is to be commended for making a very detailed case that the standard narrative is wrong, it mostly either consists of specific claims that I am not equipped to assess (e.g. the Zyklon B discussion), or examples of Jewish dissembling on other matters (which obviously happens – but doesn’t mean they lie about everything).
In particular, there is little statistical argumentation of the sort that abounds in race/IQ arguments. The census argument is addressed vaguely and in passing; while the numbers of Holocaust survivors argument seems highly flawed.
(3) I don’t think Holocaust denial is a good strategy for nationalists (or anybody, really).
Indeed, given the very success of the “Holocaust industry”, isn’t intellectual energy better spent on building victimization myths? It sounds weak and whiny, sure – but hey, Christianity is the most successful meme in world history.
In short, we don’t so much need to deny the Holocaust as to draw the right lessons from it. And by that, I don’t quite mean the “never again” platitudes.
(4) We should certainly support the rights of Holocaust deniers, for both principled and self-interested reasons.
That said, this doesn’t extend to me publishing off-topic spam comments on my own blog.
(5) Many conspiracy theories remain substantially or wholly correct (indeed, the very term “conspiracy theory” is literally a CIA conspiracy). Just not this one.
Definitely the neocon and neolib leaning ones in US mass media. There’re numerous others not like that, who aren’t heard in US mass media.
This matter is somewhat similar to the kind of Ukrainian views propped in US mass media and the leading think tanks. Meantime, I know a number of Ukrainian ex-pats in the US whose views are more line with my own than when compared to standard svido.
In point of fact, elements within US Jewry have acknowledged some points concerning the Russian Empire. As a case in point, see:
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/09/21/getting-russia-wrong-again.html
Excerpt:
I thought he got that graphic from that cretin “Wally” who keeps advertising his Holocaust denial forum.
imo Ron Unz has pretty much killed off this site with his open endorsement of Holocaust denial, and some of the other pieces he’s written in the last few months. Even if Unz review doesn’t get taken off the net, there’s now zero chance imo that Unz review will ever acquire interesting new authors or increase its influence…because honestly, who wants to be associated with that kind of stuff? Unz review will be seen as a forum for repellent nutcases, become completely irrelevant and tarnish anybody involved with it through guilt by association.
Kind of sad, what a waste.
Do non-boomers really care about the Holocaust?
Utu must be the happiest person on this site today.
Plenty to agree with here. Witnessing the trajectory within the last two years has not been pleasant. There were some people with whom I used to interact more (and it was pleasant to), but now I generally avoid because their views have changed and become more extreme over the years. Is this just the way this medium pushes people? Or just that these kind of sites attract a certain kind of people disproportionately?
Peace.
Utu must be the happiest person on this site today.
If you’re implying that he is a Holocaust denier, I don’t believe that is the case.
Thanks for setting the record straight. I spent quite a lot of energy battling mindless Holocaust deniers like Wally and several others here at UR like him in last two years. But it is really pointless. They are automatons who do not have a sense of history. They live in an artificial realty of TV court room drama where allegedly the truth can be found because they saw it themselves many times on TV.
No, just that he hates Jews.
If you read that full comment, he’s basically saying that too extreme Holocaust denial is harmful to the general project of delegitimizing Jews. He’s being strategic.
He also insinuates towards the end of that comment that organized Jewry covered up the disappearance of religious Jews to derive some sort of benefit from it. So we must insist on their disappearance in order to delegitimize organized Jewry or something.
I myself find the Holocaust utterly boring – even when I was younger and identified as Jewish, I found it boring.
And of course I have no problem with utu hating Jews – I find his comments on the subject amusing.
But he is an unhappy man, and this will bring a ray of sunshine into his life – I do not begrudge him that 🙂
HOLOCAUST IS A MASS DELUSION OF THE JUDAISTS.
“Holocaust” means to burn to ashes the entire person (holo: whole; caust: to burn, such as cauterize, caustic, etc.) It literally means to cremate an entire person alive. The human body is 70% water, and it takes many many hours to cremate a person and reduce the body to ashes, and requires very high temperatures. Even assuming Judaists were cremated alive (holocausted) 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 10 at a time at Auschwitz, and for 5 years non-stop (= for the entire length of the war) and it took 2 only hours to “holocaust” each (the highest speed cremation), only at most (24/2)10365*5 = 219,000 could have been holocausted.
Also:
There has never been found in the tons of documents seized any order signed by Hitler or any other top official or a tape or movie recording of him ordering the mass extermination of Jews.
There are many tapes of Hitler’s speeches, but there is NONE in which he says, to the effect: “holocaust all the Jews.”
Governments work on written orders. Juniors follow WRITTEN orders issued from the top, that percolate down. So where is the written “order” ordering the “holocaust”?
There is none.
No wonder they are putting people in prison for questioning this obvious hoax.
I was about to write a comment that I go along with AK’s rationale and position which is very rather rare. And then I encountered your comment here. At the moment I am not sure how to react.
His arguments on MH17, TWA800 and, IIRC as its been a while, Victor Suvorov, smacked of a knee-jerk contrarianism towards the MSM than critical examinations of all arguments.
After years of reading alternative right wing nationalist perspectives I think the ones obsessed with the Holocaust – not talking about R. Unz here – have managed to convince themselves that if they discredit the six million Jews thing it will be a silver bullet that somehow kills the whole multiculti narrative all at once. Others are just American* who have adopted some weird nostalgic German nationalism thing – probably out of disgust at what their own country has become.
Follow your instincts, my friend 🙂
Do not panic. You might be right but it is possible that R. Unz can push the envelope further because the envelope become more pushable which you will never know w/o taking a risk.
It’s a mix of some people whining about Jews (when they are on top), and some people feeling generous and friendly to Jews (when they are on bottom).
Majority don’t even care, compared to other European countries, and even hostile people are not as unpleasant as foreigners infer, but mostly just a reasonable resentment of Jews, which is rational considering overrepresentation of Jews among the elite in Russia.
Considering the lower economic levels, people are unusually tolerant in real life.
When Russian Jews immigrated to Israel in the 1990s, they realized they get far more racism (from Israelis), than they got in the Soviet Union (for having Jewish names).
And nowadays, the difference is more extreme – as without the Soviet Union, there is no hazing of Jews in Russia today (and they are only different, if they want to be), while there is still hazing and discrimination of Russianspeaking Jews in Israel.
As you know, Jews are overrepresented in the Russian government. So it’s surreal, until you realize, that no Americans don’t actually care about this topic or the real country. (They prefer to imagine Mordor).
If you recall, a picture of Obama and a banana, was posted a few years ago by Jewish politician and figure skater, Irina Rodnina.
American media has gone crazy about this picture, and responded about the topic of “racism in Russia”, without saying the politician herself is Jewish origin, and her career is a demonstration of national tolerance.
It’s an externalization of American internal debates.
America is in a radical mental breakdown, in which they split into rival sides.
If one side supports something, then the other side has to be opposed. And viceversa.
If Trump is friendly to Russia, then the Democrat side will be hostile.
Ioffe is aware that Rodnina is of Jewish origin, but she writes (in some openly dishonest, propaganda way) that the posting of the picture is an example of Russian racism, which is somehow resembling the Republicans. She is openly immoral in order to fulfill her job description.
The target is other Americans. They can’t kill each other, but if they would if they had an opportunity. Instead of killing other Americans, fight with them is externalized onto abstract topics, and foreign nationalities which become associated with different sides.
People in the Kremlin are very aware of this, but the media strategy (to try to attract both left and right wing, with different channels, simply attracts more mentally ill Americans from both).
For the Kremlin itself of course, there’s something useful that irrationality of America can become a distraction, and endless media for television and newspapers to be shocked about it.
The topic is boring and has a kind of theological debates.
People are depressed and they become fixed on topics of murder and death as a form of escapism. As well as Nazi executions of civilians, they also become obsessed online about massacres like “Sandy Hook Elementary School” shooting.
Notice that the “sceptics” usually try to support actually a happy outcome. Nobody was killed in “Sandy Hook Elementary School”. All children are actually alive and living a happy life somewhere as actors. Using key words into a search engine, and innate confirmation bias will allow you to believe anything that makes you happy or matches your worldview. To understand topics objectively, and without mixing up your confirmation bias and emotional desires, is not something most people have any talent for.
…But doesn’t it turn us into Jews? We should be careful when fighting these monsters, lest we become monsters ourselves.
Doubt it. The individual bloggers/authors are firewalled from each other, there is no common editorial policy, and the likes of Wally aren’t going to appear on my comments threads. For example, how exactly is this supposed to impact negatively on Sailer (ostracized from handshakeworthy journalism anyway)? Will you stop commenting on my blog specifically because Ron published that article?
I also don’t see how the UR could be taken off the Internet, at least under the current legal/regulatory climate and bearing in mind its financial status (sponsored entirely by Ron Unz himself). Perhaps it might get blocked in Germany or whatever (though not in Russia, the kremlins couldn’t care less for English language “extremism”) but I’ve been recommending people get a good VPN for ages anyway.
Falsifiable prediction: Readership of the UR will continue growing steadily, and will be appreciably larger in a year’s time than now. (That’s bearing in mind that even current figures are at an all time high).
Unfortunately to fight a monster you must become a monster.
Asia was faced with just such a dilemma when they were broken out of their isolation by the West – and they found no other solution to the menace of the West, then by becoming just the same kind of monster. Witness China today, and commenters like gmachine and Duke Of Qin, and Japan during the war.
And Anatoly, you have hit very close to the bullseye with your comment that Russia can benefit from a victim narrative, but you have not quite hit the mark.
What Russia needs is to occupy the moral high ground – a victim narrative is only one way to do this, and not necessarily the best. This is also what Europeans and American whites need.
Once again you are getting caught up in the external husk and not perceiving the kernel – victim status is merely one form of occupying the moral high ground. The principle must be adapted to your peculiar situation – don’t get caught up in externals, like you materialistic Europeans are so wont to do.
Being the one race most heavily associated with amoral things like materialism.and science has, it is now clear, come at tremendous public relations cost, and internal psychic cost.
Excellent article, Anatoly!
While we are on this topic, though, what are your thoughts about the impact that the Holocaust had on the average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ? Specifically, do you think that the Ashkenazi Jews who were killed in the Holocaust were, on average, significantly less intelligent than those who survived? Or do you think that there was no meaningful difference between these two categories of Ashkenazi Jews?
I know that Jews were already the most educated group in the Soviet Union in 1939 (as in, right before the Holocaust), but I have also read that Jews from the cities were more likely to successfully flee to the interior of the Soviet Union in 1941 than Jews from the countryside were. Also, this is not to mention the millions of Ashkenazi Jews who emigrated from Europe in the century before the Holocaust (1840-1940).
What’s interesting is that, when I look at the Israeli PISA results, Israel has a weaker-than-expected top performance. Specifically, the top 10% of Israeli Hebrew-speakers only score about 640 on PISA (on average)–something which indicates an average IQ of around 121. One would think that, with half of its Jewish population being Ashkenazi, Israel would have a very strong top (Yes, there was significant intermarriage between Ashkenazim and Mizrahim in Israel, but it is possible that assortative mating played a role in this). However, the Israeli Hebrew-speaking top performers don’t even perform as well as the top 10% of students in the OECD–let alone as well as the top 10% of students in very smart OECD countries such as Finland, South Korea, and Singapore.
Basically, this information combined with the fact that Ashkenazi Jews in the diaspora perform extremely well (for instance, La Griffe du Lion previously calculated that the average IQ of Jews in the U.S. is about 0.7 standard deviations above that of White Gentiles in the U.S.) makes me wonder if there was a selection effect which ensured that the less intelligent Ashkenazi Jews were the ones who ended up in Israel. In turn, this makes me wonder what the average IQ of the Ashkenazi Jews who perished in the Holocaust was.
A very well-reasoned post, I think I basically entirely agree.
My impression is that deniers/self-styled revisionists tend to focus on the concentration camps, and specifically the claim that gas chambers were used as a means of murder within the camps. However, even if gas chambers turn out to be a total fabrication, between the well-documented mass shootings of Jewish civilians on the eastern front by Nazi and Nazi-aligned forces and the amount of “””accidental””” deaths of arbitrarily interned Jewish civilians as a result of starvation, forced labor and disease, there’s still quite a lot of horrifying criminality that can be fairly laid on the doorstep of Nazism. (And that’s not even considering the brutal tactics used by German forces against civilian populations in Eastern and Southern Europe during aggressive wars of choice.)
Furthermore, it is highly disingenuous of deniers/revisionists to suggest that the mass deaths of Jewish civilians and Allied, particularly Soviet, POWs were the result of exogenous forces that the Nazi government had no agency over. (Analogous to the claim made by Stalin/Soviet apologists that deaths by starvation in the Holodomor were simply the inevitable result of a bad harvest.) Clearly, the per capita rates at which Jewish civilians and Allied POWs died under German control were far greater than the rate at which German civilians did, likely orders of magnitude more so. (Even including German casualties from Allied bombing campaigns, though that’s arguably irrelevant because Allied bombing is not usually alleged to be one of the significant causes of the deaths of Jewish civilians or Soviet POWs under German control.) This isn’t really surprising given the absolutely vicious and inhumane moral logic expressed by Nazi leaders in Himmler’s Posen speeches and the Hunger Plan, in which the lives of non-Germans were deemed of infinitesimal value compared to the lives of Germans.
PISA is extremely weakly correlated with intelligence – it correlates primarily with social striving in societies where academic credentials is the path to success.
In Israel the path to success is through excelling in the Army or creating a start up – both tasks emphasizing real world improvising skills and not academic credentials.
In America you can’t get very far without excelling in academic credentialing – so socially striving groups emphasize it.
Much of the psychological fuel for excelling academically comes from envy – social insecurity that is the result of measuring yourself against other groups. This element is muted in Israel, as everyone is Jewish.
It is unreasonable to expect Israeli Jews to reproduce the cultural patterns of diaspora Jews – as the culture of diaspora Jewry is heavily influenced by their peculiar social position.
That said, Israel selected for a different type of person – the entire Zionist project was based on creating a new type of Jew free from the psychological distortions of the diaspora Jew, and only those Jews who felt repelled by the acquired attributes of the diaspora Jew would have felt drawn to the project.
It’s useful educationally, to teach kids about national tragedies , because it increases their solidarity.
But to say to other countries, you are a victim and a loser – is clever for small peoples that want to enter under a larger country’s sphere of influence, not for large peoples who want their own sphere influence.
People already think Russia as a victim, and the small countries feel superior that a larger and higher potential country than them, can be a victim. Even people of small Baltic countries dream of three Russian gastarbeiters each.
America says they are winners, and not victims. And they believe this is why everyone should listen to their ideas, and enter their sphere of influence.
America really are winners, economically, as USA is a paradise of high wages. But other aspects of America are as much as disaster, as other countries. But they do not say this abroad, and so not to weaken their soft power and utopian imagery, which attracts so many smaller peoples into their sphere.
Scott McConnell is saddened by the article. He says it will damage Sailer, Derbyshire and VDare: Link
I agree with your arguments but I do not think that census data for Central and Eastern Europe can be trusted or easily interpreted. The numbers of losses are all exaggerated, IMO. The number of 6 millions for Poland is exaggerated as the number of X milion for the USSR whatever the X is nowadays. Most likely the USSR’s X number and Poland’s 6 milion number have a common part that is double counted that include people killed by the USSR like Ukrainians fighting Soviets or Polish citizens of German origins dying in Wehrmacht. Post WWII ethnic cleansing of Germans from western Poland and Poles from western Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania and then Ukrainians from Eastern Poland complicate the estimates. Some numbers were floated right after the WWII before any census was possible and they have not been changed since. For instance the decision for Poland of 3 mil (Jews) +3 mil (non Jews) was purely political. It turned out to be more accurate for Jews than for the non Jewish part, IMO. Nobody knew how many people actually died when it was made by Jakub Berman. The USSR and Soviet block countries as the nominal winners of the WWII did not have any incentive to do research and correct the numbers. The same goes for the Jews. Only German losses are being scaled down, e.g., Dresden from 135,000 in 1960’s to 25,000 in 2000’s. When Lysenko’s commission decided that there were 4 milion dead in Auschwitz it was not questioned until over 15 years later and officially corrected in 1990s.
McConnell is a pathetic cuck. He did not bother to read the R. Unz article. The article is about Holocaust revisionism and denial It is not “Ron Unz’s site sink into Holocaust denial.”
That’s good to hear. Do you ever get breakdowns for how your blog does Anatoly?
I agree.
Everyone needs a strategy that fits their situation. What Jews were able to do based on their peculiar history is not necessarily appropriate for others.
We all have to play our peculiar hand – a small people with a history of persecution might benefit from emphasizing their victim status. That wouldn’t work for a large country. A large country might gain the moral high ground by portraying itself as a mighty protector of oppressed people, for instance.
The lesson with Jews is not to stupidly copy in a literal fashion what works for their situation – but to grasp the underlying principle and adapt it to your situation.
I really hate the incipient tendency to include Turkey as part of Europe. Ethnically cleansing Thrace does not make you part of Europe.
3% is the camel’s nose, in this case.
imo it’s hard not to interpret Ron Unz’s recent article as an endorsement of Holocaust denial.
And the other articles he’s published over the last few months were seriously misguided as well imo. And not just from a Jewish angle (though one doesn’t even have to be much of a philosemite to find insinuations of ritual murder and the like dubious)…what kind of audience does one hope to attract with something like that Suvorov article which ended with a quote that one might have to be grateful to Hitler for having allegedly prevented a Soviet invasion of Europe (so the Nazis had to murder Polish university professors for that?). I don’t know what Unz intends to achieve with that (I suppose he’s just a gullible contrarian), but it’s definitely counter-productive for any serious promotion of nationalist issues, criticism of US foreign policy, Israel etc.
You can count me among those whose “views have changed and become more extreme” (even though I am attacked by white nationalist types on Unz as a celebratory member of “the Coalition of the Fringes” as a matter of routine). Much of that has to do with the fact that the environment in which I inhabit has become much more adverse and uncivilized* and I fear for my children’s future.
*The other day I was at a car dealership for service. There was a “quiet room” there (stated in bold letters on the door “NO CELLPHONE USE”), which I entered. There was a middle-aged Korean woman in there with me and, guess what, she started to watch some video program loudly on it. Then her phone rang LOUDLY and she proceeded to answer it and carry out a conversation right there.
As soon as her phone conversation was done, I got up to approach her and ask her to not use the phone, and she got up and walked past me (no “Excuse me” or anything) and left the quiet room.
The whole time I was thinking, “You frickin’ immigrant! Can’t you read the sign?” It was a classic Russell Peters’ dad moment:
https://youtu.be/eIdwsOpc1mA
Episodes such as this and negatives experiences, both major and minor, of those in my social circle (a friend of mine was run over by a suspected illegal immigrant landscaper and left unconscious on the street) have made me ever more immigration restrictionist over the years.
As for Ron Unz’s piece on the Holocaust, I commented thusly:
In other words, I believe that the Holocaust occurred. But I also think that the details are somewhat shrouded in mystery, because the Jewish-dominated Establishment has “sacralized” and “weaponized” it as Mr. Karlin puts it and made the whole thing extremely opaque. So honest and clear-headed discussion about it is absolutely impossible… which, of course, also leads to the mysteries surrounding the existence of the likes of Emil Maurice, Field Marshal Milch, etc.
Comments of the likes of gmachine and Duke of Qin smack of weakness, not strength.
I agree, but their attitudes closely apes the attitudes of European imperialists and militarists and the language of Social Darwinism.
They are this way because Chinese society could not figure out a way to resist the West without adopting its pathologies – in a sense it is the failure of the entire Chinese cultural tradition in its supreme moment of test, all that Taoism and wisdom about being like water, etc, when it came down to it, China failed.
Western imperialism collapsed of its own accord – the Chinese could have laughed and waited it out. That would have taught the world something about Chinese culture.
If China succeeds today, it will merely be 19th century Western values that succeed – not China. These values will bring collapse in their own wake.
But I suppose the Chinese would have been superhuman had they passed their supreme test.
If the banks refuse to process payments to Sailer, it would be very detrimental. I sure hope Unz would be willing to make up the difference should that happen.
“Will you stop commenting on my blog specifically because Ron published that article?”
I’m much less likely to link it(or any blog on this website) on my real life social media account. Though I’d be able to Shaggy my way out of any real trouble, I don’t need to be asked why I posted a link to an anti-Semitic website.
I’m pretty much done with “American nationalism,” or whatever we’re calling it this day of the week. I foresee my life spent trying to enjoy the inevitable decline, watching with amusement as the Evil Party battles the Stupid Party. Yeah, I know, I’m an anon whose views nobody cares about. But when historians of the future are asking themselves why the peculiar movement which arose in America in 2015 disintegrated as rapidly as it arose, this one participant lays the blame on Donald Trump, Richard Spencer, and Ron Keeva Unz.
I don’t think China’s future is fully written just yet. It’s still quite early in its rise (or renewal). It may exceed your expectations yet or crash-and-burn. No one knows.
They vary just a little bit in power and influence, don’t you think?
Which one of these is not like the others?
Frankly, this site was never going to go mainstream or attract a large audience, which itself is a very mixed blessing. Unfortunately, there will be a lot more commenters of the likes of ‘Battle for Blair Mountain’ ‘Wally’ and ‘Rational’, but you can always just use the ‘ignore’ function.
Besides, the story of the Holocaust is gradually fading from historical memory, despite the plethora of film and newspaper articles. In fact the recent spate of media attention on the topic probably reflects a fear of diminishing reverence for it.
I really dislike making such accusations, but perhaps your state background and education plays a role in your instinctive dismissal here.
And the rest of the Anglosphere?
Also, what about crypsis? Are those census data dependent on self-reporting?
I,don’t buy this crap about holocaust denial laws being needed to protect survivors’ feelings. There would be no need to suppress scholarship unless they’re hiding something.
Very true. We shall see.
The demographic argument with regard to Europe’s Jewish population is obviously an important one, as I mentioned in my article. Basically, before the war, there were millions of Jews living in Poland and other parts of Eastern Europe, and after the war they’d mostly vanished, so where did they go, except into the hereafter?
That’s exactly why I emphasized Sanning’s very interesting 1983 book on exactly that point, which seems to have provided the first attempt at a more sophisticated demographic analysis. I found it reasonably persuasive, and others should take a look and decide for themselves. It was banned from Amazon, but may be easily found here:
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=29
As I recall, he provided quite a lot of evidence of massive deportations deep into the Soviet territory, of both Polish Jews and Soviet ones, sometimes voluntary but often not. In the latter case, the deportees were apparently sometimes handled in very crude fashion, with cattle-cars dumping people into difficult terrain, not all that much different from what I’d always read had been the fate of the Kulaks, Tatars, and other deported groups, who supposedly suffered massive losses. So mortality was probably reasonably high.
Another crucial factor is that when Sanning examines the Soviet census data, he finds evidence that many of the Jews were re-registered as Russians. Interestingly enough, the population estimates of Soviet Jews by mainstream Jewish groups were often very much higher than the official numbers appearing in the Soviet census.
Also, it’s obvious that very large numbers of Soviet Jews would have died in the war along with other Soviet soldiers and civilians, probably at least in the many hundreds of thousands.
Anyway, Sanning’s book is a pretty short one, so people should take a look and decide for themselves.
BTW, I’m astonished at the claim that 95%(!) of the early Bolshevik central government was Jewish. I just can’t believe that’s correct, unless perhaps you include leaders who had Jewish spouses or that sort of thing.
Well yes that’s obviously not Unz’s reason since Unz is extremely supportive of multiculturalism and is indeed one of the people who contributed most to Californiam’s demographic avalanche.
Most likely Unz sees Jews as the protectors of African American interests and political power which Unz would like to see redistributed to Hispanics.
German_Cuck strikes again.
Did it ever occur to you that the truth is more important than some nebulous idea of being popular and accepted by the very people who seek to destroy you.
To me, it’s not really important whether you are right or wrong about the Holocaust. I salute your attempt to bring it into an open debate. Once open debate is possible/tolerated, we can sort out who did what to whom and in what number and their implications (and find some “unexpected” nuggets) as happened with your meritocracy article (even though the MSM tried to shift the whole thing to Asian victim-ism with nary a mention about Jewish and non-Jewish white applicants.).
Wikipedia is lying about US population statistics. John Owen Beatty in ‘Iron Curtain over America’.
In 1937, Jews constituted less than 4 percent of the American people, but during the 7-year period following (1937-43), net Jewish immigration to the United States ranged between 25 and 77 percent of total net immigration to this country. For the 36-year period, 1908-43, net Jewish immigration constituted 14 percent of the total. The population of the Jewish population has increased twenty-one-fold during the same period.
From the Committe of the Judiciary of the Senate’s report.
The Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate (op. cit., p. 842), however, accepts the World Almanac figure of 15,713,638 Jews of religious affiliation in the world and summarizes thus: “statistics indicate that over 50 percent of the World Jewish population is now residing in the Western Hemisphere” (op. cit., p. 21 ), i.e., at least 8,000,000. Since some three-fourths of a million Jews live in other North and South American countries besides the United States, the number of Jews known to be in the United States may be placed at a minimum of about 7,250,000. Jews unaffiliated with organizations whose members are counted, illegal entrants, etc., may place the total number in the neighborhood of 10,000,000. This likely figure would justify the frequently heard statement that more than half of the Jews of the world are in the United States.
Douglas Reed always emphasised the importance of understandin population statistics and movements. Again citing Beatty;
This compensation was said to be for 6,000,000 Jews killed by Hitler. This figure has been used repeatedly (as late as January, 1952 — “Israeli” broadcast heard by the author), but one who consults statistics and ponders the known facts of recent history cannot do other than wonder how it is arrived at. According to Appendix VII, “Statistics on Religious Affiliation,” of The Immigration and Naturalization Systems of the United States (A Report of the Committee on the Judiciary of the United States Senate, 1950), the number of Jews in the world is 15,713,638. The World Almanac, 1949, p. 289, is cited as the source of the
statistical table reproduced on p. 842 of the government document. The article in the
World Almanac is headed “Religious Population of the World.” A corresponding item, with the title, “Population, Worldwide, by Religious Beliefs” is found in the World Almanac for 1940 (p. 129), and in it the world Jewish population is given as 15,319,359. If the World Almanac
figures are correct, the world’s Jewish population did not decrease in the war decade, but showed a small increase.
Assuming, however, that the figures of the U.S. document and the World Almanac are in error, let us make an examination of the known facts. In the first place, the number of Jews in Germany in 1939 was about 600,000 — by some estimates considerably fewer — and of these, as shown elsewhere in this book, many came to the United States, some went to Palestine, and some are still in Germany. As to the Jews in Eastern European lands temporarily overrun by
Hitler’s troops, the great majority retreated ahead of the German armies into Soviet Russia. Of these, many came later to the U.S., some moved to Palestine, some unquestionably remained in Soviet Russia and may be a part of the Jewish force on the Iranian frontier, and enough remained in Eastern Europe or have returned from Soviet Russia to form the hard core of the new ruling bureaucracy in satellite countries (Chapter II). It is hard to see how all these migrations and all these power accomplishments can have come about with a Jewish
population much less than that which existed in Eastern Europe before World War II. Thus the known facts on Jewish migration and Jewish power in Eastern Europe tend, like the World Almanac figures accepted by the Senate Judiciary Committee, to raise a question as to where Hitler got the 6,000,000 Jews he is said to have killed. This question should be settled once and for all
before the United States backs any “Israeli” claims against Germany. In this connection, it is well to recall also that the average German had no more to do with Hitler’s policies than the average American had to do with Franklin Roosevelt’s policies; that 5,000,000 Germans are unaccounted for — 4,000,000 civilians (pp. 70, 71, above) and 1,000,000 soldiers who never returned from Soviet labor camps (p. 137); and that a permanent hostile attitude toward Germany on our part is the highest hope of the Communist masters of Russia.
I remember reading Irwin Stelzer saying some of his family fled to the Soviet Union and then to the US.
I think the census argument is extremely flimsy.
Since this is his prime argument against your article, let Anatoly provide evidence these census numbers are correct.
You are basically talking about getting an accurate count on people where there is no standard definition of a Jew. Everything from Arab looking guys, to blond haired blue eyed guys, to black Ethiopians can all be counted as Jewish.
Next, take into account that Jews are sometimes seen as an ethnicity and sometimes seen as a Religion. Who’s to say that there were a lot people who quit identifying as Jewish because they wanted to be left alone.
Look at how Jews have been known to blend (or infiltrate) into other populations. Jews could have easily leaked into other neighboring countries by the millions and who would know?
Lastly, there is no doubt a huge incentive to fudge the numbers if the real numbers lost were not impressive enough. Who’s to say that the people doing the counting, pre and post, were not compromised?
Can you imagine 1 milion Polish Hasidic Jews blending anywhere w/o them being noticed? Could 1 milion Polish Hasidic Jews hide somewhere in the USSR?
Are big Nit:
“order of magnitude” should not be used to mean “in the approximate vicinity of value N”.
It should be used to indicate a power of ten.
“next order of magnitude” means “times ten”.
600’000 and 6’000’000 differ by 1 order of magnitude.
This should end the thread.
And who says it was the Hasidic Jews who fled to other countries and blended in? Is that the only Jew there is?
I did not agree with his take on Suvorov whom I view as a disinformation agent. But I did not understand your reference to murder of Polish university professors. In Sonderaktion Krakau they were arrested and sent to camps from where they were released after pressure by Mussolini and Vatican. Yes, 12 professors died there and 5 other died soon after their release (Wiki). It is believed that the AB Aktion targeting intelligentsia was coordinated with NKVD which conducted similar actions in Soviet occupation zones in 1939 and 1940. Many Poles would argue that decapitation of Polish nation was more severe at the hands of Soviets than Germans prior to June 22, 1941. In Soviet occupation zones the process of decapitation was aided by Polish Jews that’s why it was more effective. The actions were premeditated and preemptive before any signs of Polish underground resistance. Later during the occupation some actions by Germans were justified as reprisals for Polish underground activities which technically were in accordance with the rules of war though they were excessively brutal. Both Churchill and Stalin conducted war in Europe against Germany using civilians. The effect of underground activities was practically immaterial to the outcome of the war but it provoked extreme reprisals which made any collaboration with Germans impossible. While there was not that many sentiments to collaborate with Germans in Poland, in the USSR local populations were positively disposed towards Germans. Partisans were created to break this bond.
In Poland before the war there was over 3 mil Jews. 85% of them were ultra Orthodox and Hassidic.
Twinkie, could you elaborate on why you think China might “crash and burn”? It seems to me that, on the twin basis of its sheer population size and consistently high rate of GDP growth suggesting convergence with the technological frontier, China will become more and more powerful on the world stage, until it at some point it surpasses the US as the single most powerful nation on the global stage. Of course, how exactly China would use that power, if at all, to shape its region or the world at large remains unclear.
I’m certainly no Sinologist, but the potential problems that China might face that I see alleged in, say, Foreign Affairs, like a housing bubble, corruption and demands for liberalization/democratization, don’t seem big enough to overturn these fundamental forces of economics and demography.
I must say, while as a lowly undergraduate I realize I still have much to learn and a great deal of epistemic modesty is appropriate, the more I study economics and history, the more I become convinced that demography is underrated by many as a driving force in human affairs. For instance, there was apparently a huge panic in the Blade Runner/Lee Iacocca era of the 1980s that Japan would overtake and outcompete the US economically. However, these fears obviously proved rather groundless after the massive dip in economic growth Japan saw in the early 1990s, the so-called “Lost Decade”.
Yet, while hindsight is of course 20/20, I think it should fundamentally have been obvious that Japan, having about 1/2 the population of the US, was never going to overtake the US, given the roughly similar “quality”, to put it crudely, of the populations. Conversely, China has a population about 4x that of the US, so, unless the average US citizen can indefinitely produce 4x as much or more economic output than the average Chinese citizen, the odds seem heavily stacked in China’s favor in the 21st century.
Had a massive number of Jews in the Soviet Union been deported to the interior and re-registered as Russians, though, wouldn’t you expect them to return to Judaism after the collapse of the Soviet Union so that they could immigrate to Israel?
Also, even if several hundred thousand additional Jews were deported to the interior of the Soviet Union, that would still leave 4-5 million Jews unaccounted for.
If the Nazis could tell Jews apart, so could other people.
Also, one would think that Israel would have desperately looked for additional surviving Jews.
“Census data” strikes me as about a weak of an argument as “gas chambers with wooden doors”. Where did they all go – well the world is a pretty big place, and as Ron Unz mentioned, there is no guarantee that people declared their ethnicity consistently during the censuses over the years.
Ultimately I don’t care about the Holocaust because even if it happened exactly as described by the Holocaust industry, it’s far from a unique tragedy in world history. It would not even be the worst thing that happened in WW2 alone.
My personal suspicion is that the Red Cross report for the “holocaust” being about 300 000 jews dying in labor camps is about right.
Anyway, it can’t be denied that a number of innocent jews were incarcerated without reason, while the likes of Louis Nathaniel de Rothschild managed to escape after being arrested by the Nazis, because he “impressed Himmler”. The only Rothschild arrest in history – the Nazis were so close to actually doing something useful there, and they let him go.
I don’t. I merely used that as one end of a spectrum of possible futures. The future is contingent on countless variables. It’s mostly a fool’s endeavor to make long term predictions.
How does it feel to be a coward?
Nailed it.
Now offering consulting for the low, low fee of $800 an hour.
Holocaust Denial has always bored me (everyone knows the Jews had it coming anyway), but it seems to me that the gas chambers and the SIX MILLION are dubious. Turns out the Germans just killed millions of Jews (and tens of millions of others…) by other means.
I think that’s very likely for the reasons you enunciated.
I assume its a combination of three factors:
Many of the Ashkenazi being Haredim, who would perform lower than secular Ashkenazi for cultural reasons as well as genetic ones. (If they participate at all. Do they even go to the public schools in Israel? Do synagogue schools participate in PISA? How well can they do in math and science portions of PISA if curriculum is 90% religious? I don’t actually know the answers to these questions).
The Ashkenazi Jews in Israel being on average duller than their cousins in the United States (I recall estimates of 0.5 S.D.).
Possibly, the brighter secular Ashkenazi Jews do not have such an incentive to perform strongly, being surrounded by far more dullards (as opposed to East Asians in the US)?
AK’s arguments for the h-word are extremely weak. Census results are gospel truth, even though he probably knows many Muscovites who are Jewish everywhere but in their passports – and so are bogus figures which came from no census at all, like numbers of Jews in the US before and after. No discussion of mechanisms or evacuations. However I know he has equally silly and obstinate opinions on many less sensitive topics, so I don’t question his honesty.
Sorting out Jews for detention is one thing (Nazis also had last names and intelligence gathering they could rely on), counting all of them and coming up with a number is not scientific at all.
What’s worse is when Anatoly tries to pass off such a flimsy argument without digging any deeper into primary sources for accuracy like Ron did.
Assuming you’re familiar with Israel Shahak’s work, you should know that there was always a high degree of enforcement within Jewish shtetl communities to adhere to Rabbinical laws and avoid any unnecessary association with gentiles. Under the pressures of deportation and the inevitable admixture with the broader population of Russia, many may have assimilated quite rapidly.
Today, Russia probably has more people of significant Jewish descent who do not identify as such than any other country.
I myself am agnostic on the Holocaust issue as I’ve never taken a great interest in it, by I tend towards doubt. There are just too many mysteries, associated hoaxes, intimidation tactics and inconsistencies to take it anywhere near face value.
Quirky individuals can be interested in truth above all, but their separation from the herd makes them easy prey. The Darwinian premise of selection for reproductive fitness casts doubt on truth having been overwhelmingly important in the avoidance of destruction, because human cognitive facilities that would accurately perceive truth must be less advantageous than adaptation for perceiving and believing whatever is most useful for maximizing reproductive fitness.
Reply got too long: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/the-holocaust-in-the-ussr/
I just did a detailed post on Soviet Jewish demographics: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/the-holocaust-in-the-ussr/
Unfortunately, Wikipedia doesn’t have an ethnic breakdown for say the 1950 Polish Census (it doesn’t have an article on it at all). I don’t have the language skills – or really, the time/interest – to do it myself.
But Romania demographics article has stats for Jews in between the Censuses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Romania
1930 – 728,115 Jews
1948 – 138,795 Jews
1956 – 146,264 Jews
Obviously Romania did lose a bunch of territories, with perhaps 250,000 Jews, but still, where did the rest go?
Powerful samokritika.
I try to honestly assess reality
it seems pretty obvious that nationalists anywhere should vigorously defend the human rights of Holocaust deniers
Choose one and only one.
Er, that’s exactly what happened.
We’ll see what your song is when your dinner invitations flat-line.
Before the war there were (1931 census):
2.489.034 people with “Jewish language” (yiddish)
243.539 with “Hebrew” (zionists)
Also, the census counted separately by religion, and “Moses religion” (Jewish) was 3.1 mln. The difference (3.1 mln – 2.7 mln) are assimilated Jews (i.e. Poles with Jewish roots – number probably a bit exxagerated, so officials were eager to inflate the number of Poles).
That’s 3.1 mln in 1931. Jews in Poland had quite high fertility, since many of them were orthodox (their percentage in population of Poland RISED), so their number in 1939 is estimated to be about 3.5 millions.
After the war some Jews could refuse to register for different reasons: because they left for Israel; because they were affraid to admit they were Jewish…
Anyways, the modern estimation of Jews surviving in Poland in 1946 is 0.3 mln.
That’s the official highest estimate. So, you have to think that 3.2 mln Jews just disappeared (and that’s without accounting for natural demographic growth during the war). They have to be in censuses somewhere. Either in USSR, Israel or USA.
The details are of lesser relevance, as long as the war is considered a detail of the Jewish genocide in the popular imagination, rather than the Jewish genocide being seen as a detail of the war.
To make the suffering of Jews the central point of contention, whether to affirm it or to refute it, is to grant Jews a certain kind of power over oneself.
While I do not begrudge Jews for seeking to ensure remembrance among their own, I fail to see why we should bestow upon their stories a mystical significance, a certain charged uniqueness, rather than simply acknowledging that the Jewish genocide was merely one among many tales of suffering.
You do not live in Germany where the Holocaust religion is the state religion.
https://gatesofvienna.net/2017/12/finis-germania-the-mythos-of-overcoming-the-past/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/controversy-over-book-deleted-from-german-best-seller-list-1.3171614
The Unz Review isn’t the German government. I presume German_reader has good infosec as well.
He’s unable to come to terms with the fact that the Jews are his enemy and that maybe his country wasn’t so wrong after all from 1933-1945. He also has an odd worry about respectability.
Ignore is for COWARDS. Use the scroll wheel.
And yes, Wally is exceptionally bad.
Well, here’s a very interesting quote someone found from FOREIGN AFFAIRS:
– https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russian-federation/1963-01-01/status-jews-soviet-union
Sanning also notes that the 1970 Encyclopedia Judaica estimate of Moscow’s Jewish population was more than twice the official figure in the 1959 Soviet Census.
This is why I very strongly recommend reading the Sanning book rather than merely arguing on the basis of very limited information. I certainly found it extremely surprising.
(Given the relevance of this comment, I’ll take the extreme liberty of duplicating it on both comment-threads).
Thanks. I was wondering, do the Polish censuses of 1950 (1960, etc.) have a question asking about “Moses religion” and/or Yiddish/Hebrew language?
Unfortunately, neither English nor Polish wiki has any articles on any Polish censuses from 1931 until 2002: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spisy_statystyczne_w_Polsce
I mean, I am virtually certain those estimates you cite (<0.3 million) are true – the 2002 Polish census only had 1,100 Jews – but it would be good to have some iron confirmation.
Those Jews certainly didn’t go to the USSR.
Based on the slow rate of growth of American Jewry from 1940-50, slower than either in the 1930s or 1950s, they didn’t end up in the US either.
That leaves Israel. That did show growth, but only in the hundreds of thousands, not millions. And I assume it would have drawn Jews from across all of postwar Europe.
It is pile of nonsense. Check composition of both Council of People’s Commissars and Central Committee.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Committee_elected_by_the_6th_Congress_of_the_Russian_Social_Democratic_Labour_Party_(Bolsheviks)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_People%27s_Commissars
The English page have “ethnicity” column, but it was brigaded by some Great Russian chauvinists who claimed all great revolutionaries, even Trotsky for Russian nation ;-). Disregard it and check everyone directly.
It seems to me you’ve got it backwards. OTOH, while I appreciate Unz’ intellectual honesty, I think any evaluation of the evidence is beside the point at this juncture. Freedom of inquiry must come first, because only then is a fair evaluation of the evidence even possible. I am agnostic on the Holocaust, and will probably remain so as long as one can go to prison for doubting it.
Holocaust denial laws are a wedge for other speech restrictions. Muslims use them to demand de facto blasphemy laws in Western countries, which will no doubt have the effect of driving sincere Christians underground. That is totally unacceptable.
I will say this. I would never have doubted the Holocaust but for the attempted hoax surrounding a certain St. Skittles. One wonders if the Holocaust narrative ever would have taken off if we’d had the internet back in the day.
I have checked the http://statlibr.stat.gov.pl/F?func=full-set-set&set_number=000286&set_entry=000032&format=999 and it seems it had no questions about religion and language at all 8|
The 1946 census (http://statlibr.stat.gov.pl/F?func=full-set-set&set_number=000286&set_entry=000032&format=999) has nationality, but only three categories: Poles, Germans, other. (400.000). Other would include the Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Belarussians, Romas – maybe also Silesians and Kashubians, but I am not sure whether that would be allowed as “other” nationality in 1946.
Okay, I admit I don’t quite know what you don’t quite mean.
If the lesson of the Holocaust was “never again”, it seems not to have been learned, even–or especially–by the main Holocaust promoters. As others have noted, organizations such as the ADL that claim to be custodians of the Holocaust’s legacy actively suppress evidence of new Holocausts shaping up in South Africa, Europe and America, even as they cheer on the forces bringing about these new genocides.
Freedom of inquiry must come first.
We have freedom of inquiry in the US and this subject has been fully “inquired” on several times over. The information is there for those who can read and comprehend.
What we don’t have is the neo-Nazis substituting their propaganda in the MSM for the existing propaganda and that’s what this is about.
I think one answer to the Israel IQ is that the term Ashkenazi in Israel doesn’t really mean Ashkenazi.
As per wikipedia: “In Israel, the term Ashkenazi is now used in a manner unrelated to its original meaning, often applied to all Jews who settled in Europe and sometimes including those whose ethnic background is actually Sephardic. […] Jews of mixed background are increasingly common, partly because of intermarriage between Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi, and partly because many do not see such historic markers as relevant to their life experiences as Jews.”
Lynn is claiming that a lot of “Ashkenazim” from the UdSSR were actually just Russians or at least not fully jewish.
I’m sceptical of any strong selection effects. I think it’s more likely that the average IQ has been slowly dropping for quite a while due to intermarriage.
I’m not a coward, but I object to stupidity, and Holocaust denial is as retarded as it gets.
Do you characterize Unz’s latest piece as Holocaust denial? I don’t.
I get the impression that organized Jewry doubled down on a dubious maximalist interpretation for political (and emotional) purposes, then criminalized dissent on the matter. Furthermore it seems this really only became a thing after the capture and trial of Adolf Eichmann.
That millions of Jews died (and were frequently deliberately murdered, en masse, or forced into high mortality conditions) in a war in which fifty million people died is only disputed by lunatics.
It sure does seem like that to me, but I’ve got neither time nor inclination for another close reading. Frankly, I find Ron Unz’s modus operandi (claiming that he’s uncovered some hidden truth by selective references to often dubious and marginal sources, obstinately refusing to engage with the standard literature – and not just on this issue) tiresome, this is all totally pointless.
There’s a lot to criticize about the way the Holocaust has been sacralized and used as legitimation for all manner of dubious policies, like multiculturalism, mass immigration, unconditional support of the state of Israel and various US military interventions allegedly designed to fight the new Hitler of the current day. But that’s different from claiming there was no systematic mass killing of Jews by the Nazis during WW2. The latter is just foolish imo.
Such attitudes are not common in China, though.
I took one of those amphibian tours of Boston the other day. Social pressure – even though I grew up around the city. Beyond the changing demographics which I notice each time I go into the city, what impressed me was how everything had been politically hijacked. The narrative of victimhood made co-equal or even superior to the narrative of freedom.
The city is especially associated with the Revolutionary War and patriotism. On a field trip as a little boy we walked along the so-called Freedom Trail, which is a kind of overview of some of this history. In the Old North Church, where a lantern signal to warn of British troop movement was once hung, we were each given little historical phrases. Mine was “Give me liberty or give me death!” Originally part of the speech of a slaveowner, though it was not mentioned at the time.
Now there is a Holocaust memorial and a Black Heritage Trail (mostly about slavery) , neither of which existed back then, in prominent parts of the city. Many school kids and tourists will have a hard time escaping them. The Holocaust memorial has six columns for the six million. It consists of glass panels mostly etched with numbers. Each panel is exactly the same though – it is the same numbers, again and again. Only 17,280 unique numbers – not six million.
You can see another weird example of this political hijacking of history to elevate victimhood above or make it co-equal freedom in one of the most prominent bridges into the city. The Leonard P. Zakim Bunker Hill Bridge, a wide cable-stayed bridge. Bunker Hill is a reference to a Revolutionary War battle. Zakim was local head of the ADL. Naturally, his name comes first.
They’re building a giant Holocaust Memorial in Britain as well, even though it is (from what I can tell) something that no-one but a subset of Jews, hysterical boomers and weird philo-semites cares about. Naturally it has been designed by an African-Israeli duo, which I think is a fitting symbol of contemporary Britain.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/Travel/2017/October/holocaust-uk-memorial-entrance.jpg?imwidth=1400
Why are Holocaust memorials usually so bizarre? Instead of trying to create a positive visual representation of Jews (perhaps something like Motherland Calls or Liberation of Paris), they create something that reminds me of carrion birds.
Instead of creating an image of pity, it brings to mind carcass being feasted upon.
Unz review is essentially kind of an intellectual site. It was never going to be that popular with the hoi polloi. Anatoly linked to it’s alexa ratings that show it is the 27,626th most popular site in the world.
In contrast, MSNBCs website is the 2,601st most popular.
So Unz is no competitor to the MSM. But is this not because of the high brow of the crankiness but rather just because of the crankiness itself? Well, look who is a competitor with the MSM.
Infowars.com – 3,125th most popular website in the world, nipping at MSNBCs heels.
Rather than 47000 words discussing demographic numbers with citations we must begin insisting that the holohoax meme was genetically engineered using GAY FROGS as surrogates and then implanting into the water stream to CONTROL your CHI bro.
So you want to be popular do you?
Wrong link for the 1946 census. It’s here: http://statlibr.stat.gov.pl/F?func=full-set-set&set_number=000300&set_entry=000002&format=999
Utterly depressing, there does seem some chance it can be stopped and I have looked in to seeing how I can help stop it.
Very popular in Britain, France, Sweden and errr Sudan though.
THE REAL HOLOCAUST
https://www.infowarsstore.com/true-legends-holocaust-of-giants-dvd.html
Hey Twinkie,
I mostly agree with you about the slow and steady loss of civilized culture in the US. Not sure what the parameters are, but it seems that even the lower classes of 1930’s would die of shame if they went out shirtless and in shorts to do their lawn as people do today. Or wearing sweats everywhere, etc.
I agree that open debate should not be stifled on the subject and it should be completely open to scrutiny as any other historical event. That’s not what I find toxic, rather it’s just the attitude of many of the commenters which have devolved into sort permutation of Hitler-fanboiz.
Solid.
I don’t get into those debates much* because I haven’t researched the subject as much as others have (nor do I care to dedicate the time) and they usually become yelling contests where people are simply insulting each other. Not worth it.
Peace.
*Though I can tell you the Muslim position on Palestine would get a massive boost if it was proven that the Holocaust was imaginary, but I’m not keen on simply siding with some position because it happens to prove politically convenient.
I, for one, will donate for a live video of Mr. Karlin rambling about alien conspiracies to inflict gay chemicals in the water so to hide the spiritual reptilians hosted in our quantum bodies.
If only the Giants had access to Infowars DNA Power.
I think it is a combination of two things:
1.) it is political art, which means it is about relationships, not talent, inspiration, or taste.
2.) Jews are in general not especially gifted when it comes to public art and architecture.
You can actually see the same thing in a lot black public art, which is inspired by Jewish memorials. “The National Memorial for Peace and Justice in Montgomery” is a really stunning example, IMO. One reason being how its design contains the seeds of victimhood – 801 duplicates of monuments inside – to plant in every county where there was supposedly a lynching. They are kept on display to supposedly shame the various counties into accepting them.
What is really weird is that they have jars of soil there too. Reminds me of how Dracula was said to take his native soil with him to help give him power to prey on those around London.
Wow, that is ugly! And so near to be placed so near to the centers of power! And they already have one in Hyde Park.
They are becoming larger, gaudier, more central, and more numerous. I suppose this has to be peak. The alternative, of them becoming like Starbucks, or worse – one in every house and apartment – is too frightening to contemplate.
I wonder if, in the future, any shall be blown up like Nelson’s Pillar was. Or like numerous statues of Lenin were taken down.
I would like to point to two posts in a thread from mid-August 2018, in which I comment on Stephen Miller’s uncle (David Glosser)’s politicized Holocaust-pushing in which he asserts that 1,993 of the 2,000 Jews of Antopol, Poland [now Belarus] were killed, shot or otherwise. Antopol was the ancestral home of their common ancestor, who left during the height of the “Ellis Island” wave. David Glosserhad no direct connection to Antopol, and never lived there, nor did his parents.
to which Jewish commenter JackD replied:
to which I reply:
Way too much “puzzlement,” “discovered,” “undeniable true,” “never paid much attention,” “to my surprise,” “rather bizarre,” “mysterious world,” “tremendous revelation,” “very surprised,” “repeatedly surprised,” etc., etc., for me to take seriously.
I am some decades too young to be a Boomer, but count me as one who does think this topic deserves attention.
Why? The discourse is too dominated by ‘exterminationists,’ and is too politicized. It is the ultimate political taboo; no deviation tolerated; keep ’em on the reservation; any serious deviation is suppressed (as literally codified in the laws of Germany and other countries). In other words, “you may not care about the Holocaust, but the Holocaust cares about you.”
Exterminationism is still highly politically useful to many parties (cerainly not only to Israel/Jews).
What I object to about the Holocaust story, to say it is a very simple way, is that it gets a capital letter (no other comparable event does, despite some Ukrainian efforts to market ‘Holdomor’ without much success) — with all that that ‘capital-H’ implies. It implies a lot. The capital letter implies its supreme significance tp 20th century history, or perhaps the history of the past five or so centuries in Europe. It implies that it is always illegitimate (if not evil outright) for White men to be ethnonationalist. Any White ethnonationalism is a step along a terrible path ending at the Judenrampe at Auschwitz. That is Holocaust mind-conditioning.
Some are correct to say the political use of the Holocaust is seperate from “what actually happened.” It’s true. Yet I do think it is likely that for a non-orthodox, quasi-revisionist narrative will someday replace the extremist one that we all now know. It is what I call above the “Jewish dispersion story [roughly, 1880s-1950s] with heavy doses of violence on the fringes”). The Jewish dispersion out of the old Jewish heartland in eastern Europe was ongoing throughout this period, and 1941-1944 was more a shock that moved things along than an asteroid-hits-Earth dinosaur-extinction-like event.
This does not exonerate “the Nazis” (whatever that term is meant to mean; party leadership? SS? All Nazi true-believers or members? All Germans?), but it is a call for nuance; violence on the margins is not the same as industrial genocide that flowed naturally (we are told) from ethnonationalist politics. There were plenty of guilty Nazis and auxiliaries and civilians (as well as others from other regimes/armies). War often involves such crimes on the margins…
As for the relevance of the Holocaust today: For one thing, we see the same narrative played out on a pretty regular basis, mini-Holocausts or mini imminent Holocausts always pop up in the media, if you know where to look for them and how to recognize them. The Chemnitz protest of late August 2018 (following the brutal knife assault by Muslim refugees on three German men, one of whom was killed, who intervened to stop the Muslims from committing a rape in progress). Those who have followed it the Chemnitz have seen that some hacks in the media have been pushing a line like this: Organized teams of fanatical but disciplined Neonazis cadres spent the day hunting down foreigners. No evidence of such (“hunting down foreigners”) is given, just an assertion and a long character-assassination is enough to get many to believe it; did some version of this happen? “Yes”: There were explicitly anti-foreigner nationalists present in some numbers; is the media’s hysterical characterization correct? No way, or at least I see no evidence for it. A parallel can be made to the orthodox Holocaust story, roughly, I think. Both Chemnitz and the capital-H Holocaust are too politically useful to bother with nuance.
Unz review is essentially kind of an intellectual site. It was never going to be that popular with the hoi polloi.
LOL
But the hoi poi like it.
We only know about the readers if the commenters are representative, and I don’t know why we should make that assumption. Further, since there is no commenter screening, we don’t really know how many authentic trolls there are. That said, there are many erudite commenters.
Another important argument made by Sanning is that the widely-used figures for Poland’s 1939 Jewish population were probably grossly exaggerated, and completely failed to reflect the massive outflow of Jewish immigrants during most of the 1930s, which the Polish government had did its best to foster.
I found his analysis at least reasonably plausible, and he estimates the discrepancy may have been as large as 700,000, which would certainly have a large impact on the overall numbers in question.
Stalin had a notorious habit of moving populations around like pieces on a chessboard, and since the Jews he apparently deported to Siberia in such huge numbers in 1939 and again in 1941 had been so overwhelmingly urbanized, I’d assume they would have had even more problems adjusting to their new surroundings than had the Kulaks or the Tatars.
Where would they have emigrated to? The US had strict immigration quotas, and few other Western countries can have been keen on accepting large numbers of Polish Jews in the midst of the Great Depression. The authoritarian-nationalist dictatorships in East-Central Europe certainly weren’t. And for countries like France, Belgium and the Netherlands (whose foreign Jews of recent immigrant origin mostly perished in the Holocaust) there must be reliable data.
I guess that leaves Palestine, but numbers of Jewish immigrants there must be well-known; iirc there was also some immigration restriction by the British after the Arab rising.
Actually, very large numbers of Jews had illegally immigrated to Western Europe and also the Western Hemisphere during that period. Sanning points out that the official Polish emigration figures were completely ridiculous since the entire total was only about the same as the recorded influx into just Palestine.
Basically, Poland was probably the most anti-Semitic country in Europe during that period, and was doing absolutely everything to push out as many Jews as possible. Naturally, they were hiding this huge outflow lest other countries put up stronger barriers against entry.
Am I sure Sanning’s analysis is correct? Absolutely not! But it does seem quite detailed and fairly plausible.
And instead of asking me so many questions, why not just read it and just decide for yourself…
I suspect Jason Richwine, John Derbyshire, Robert Weissberg, Larry Kudlow, etc. might beg to differ.
Evidently, reasonable people can disagree on the matter.
I would be more than happy to accept the Holocaust as unquestionable if the Jew’s would stop using it to shame Whites into acquiescing in our own destruction. Otherwise, no dice.
Well, Ive googled the emmigration from Poland and the first article (in Polish) claims 2 million Polish citizens ( emigrated in 1918-1938, of which one million returned.
The same source claims 42.000 Polish emmigrants leaving for Palestine up to 1930 and 68 thousands afterwards, and in total 375 thousands Jewish immigrants in 1921-1937. It’s true Polish government encouraged Jewish emmigration and negotiated with Brits, USA, Latin America countries to increase their quotas, but the point is the negotiations were fruitless. I do not find likely that in 1938/39 as many Jews would leave Poland as in 1921-1937. Also, the source does not give per year numbers for Jewish immigration in total, but the numbers given for Palestine seem to indicate that while Jewish emigration increased, it was not by much. All in all I doubt that more than 250 thousand Jews emigrated after the 1931 census. Sanning seems to postulate that somehow for every Jew who left a country leaving a mark in statistics, two other left without leaving a trace in official documents. I know there was also illegal immigration organized to France and Palestine, but I really doubt it would be that much.
Source in Polish (it’s about emigration from Poland, only few sentences here and there are about Jews, especially page 44 in pdf – marked as 42 in text):
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiPlt3jrZDdAhWLmLQKHdy-C9YQFjAAegQICRAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cefmr.pan.pl%2Fdocs%2Fcefmr_wp_2005-04.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2lp8X6i8nCIOa6ZUpaxogY
Moreover, in 1921 there were 2.845 mln Jews in Poland, and in 1931 (despite emmigration), 3.1 mln. I know 184 thousands emigrated in 1921-25 (before the quotas were reduced), I have no idea how many in 1926, and I could estimate (using the numbers above) how many emigrated 1927-1931. So I would say 300 thousands emigrated and yet the population raised by 250 thousands (at least). That’s astonishingly high growth (despite huge emmigration) – more than half a million people within FIVE years!!
The historians estimate 3.4-3.5mln of Jews in 1939 in Poland, after taking into account both demographics and emigration.
But, if we don’t trust them, without going into complicated demographic calculations, we can just assume the emmigration was more or less the same (because it’s not enough that Polish government wanted Jews to emigrate; the foreign states in addition must want to take them in, and almost none wanted to). So – if half a million increase within five years, say 900 thousands within nine years, of which say 250 thousands emigrated. Damn, there could be even 3.7 mln Jews in Poland in 1939!
Moreover, I have just realised something. If Sannings does not mean simple 700 thousands Jews emigrated, but migration makes 700 thousands difference in total numbers, that would mean actually more than million Jews would have to emigrate from Poland (700 difference from official number plus official number of emigrants). That would mean for every registered emmigrant, there would almost THREE unregistered. Possible? Maybe. Do I believe it? Not really.
Finally, another thing is that Jews speaking Polish, who converted to Catholicism were not captured in censuses as Jewish, but they were still considered Jews by Germans and died as Jews, despite maybe feeling Polish and being ethnic Poles by all criterion except nazi. How many of them lived in Poland? No idea, but I do not think they are included in any statistic.
Is Sanning’s book freely available? I’ve googled only the copy on CODOH site and I won’t support CODOH (not to mention the cost would be prohibitve for a Polish citizen, just to make an argument).
But I am curious about the claim “Polish emigration figures were completely ridiculous since the entire total was only about the same as the recorded influx into just Palestine.”. My source claims 42 thousand Jews emigrated to Palestine before 1931, and wikipedia tells me 82.000 Jews arrived in 1924-1929, of which roughly half were from Poland. Then my source claims 60 thousand Jews emigrated up to 1937, and wikipedia claims 55.000 Jews from central Europe arrived between 1933-1939. This does not seem like “completely ridiculous”, but, in fact as almost the same.
If “central europe” means germany (because you Anglos have this nasty habit to call us “eastern europe”) then still the proportion of immigrants from Poland went from 41% in 1936 to 11% in 1939, meaning that of the 225-300k jews not that different number from 60 thousand could arrive from Poland, still quite close to figures I have.
Sure, I’ve already given the link a couple of times. It’s freely available right here, in a variety of different formats, and you can read it online:
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=29
Please keep in mind that I’m no expert on those data-sources, and I certainly don’t read a word of German, Polish, or Russian, so you can probably analyze the material much better than I could.
I think his 700K estimate is an upper-bound, but he just claims it’s pretty large.
Here is free pdf.
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/29-tdoeej.pdf
Now you can send money to me if you don’t want to support Codoh.
You are turning to a whiny cunt just like German_reader whenever it comes to WWII issues.
I suspect Jason Richwine, John Derbyshire, Robert Weissberg, Larry Kudlow, etc. might beg to differ.
Can you provide the court case numbers and the name of the court where these individuals were prosecuted? Seems like a reasonable request to me.
Perhaps you should do something constructive for Germany. Like go to Chemnitz and stop doing the job for ADL defending the orthodox Holocaust story. Nobody knows your real name so it is really pointless to do virtue signaling here. What a cunt.
I’m not really up for streetfighting, but you’re probably right, I should stop commenting here, it’s a waste of time. Bye!
Are you justifying persecution of dissidents? It sounds to me like you are.
Either way, the point remains. If the sanction for inquiring into the details of the Holocaust is unemployability, you don’t have free inquiry.
Never underestimate the incompetence and stupidity of the Communist Party. The longer it rules, the more likely a crash occurs. The world had the great benefit of the Communist victory in 1949, and a 30-year period in which the Party destroyed the Chinese economy. In time, the odds are non-trivial that this tyranny pushes in the direction of yet another misconceived scheme along the lines of what destroyed earlier dynasties. The risks are multiplied by the instability of China’s non-hereditary succession process – a significant weakness in a dictatorship, which means that there are multiple contenders for the throne at any given time. It’s not just a matter of wanting to succeed the existing ruler after his natural death – even his rule is up for grabs, the way Boris Yeltsin turfed Gorbachev.
You are turning to a whiny cunt just like German_reader
On behalf of GR and szopen:
Fuck off, cocksucker!
If the sanction for inquiring into the details of the Holocaust is unemployability
Inquiring is not in question. Denial is in question. Governmental prosecution is the question, not rejection in the court of public opinion.
We’re not talking about rejection. We’re talking about persecution, i.e. hounding people out of jobs and blacklisting them. Quit playing dumb, Jew.
BTW, public opinion doesn’t mean anything when the public only gets the approved narrative and dissidents are hounded out of polite society pour encourager les autres
Come to think of it, where is all this concern for public sensibilities when deranged misogynists like Diabolical Roger Devlin are given a platform on this website?
As per usual, the feelings of 15 million Jews matter, but several hundred million White women, not so much.
Ah, sorry, I saw that link, but I – like if I was the least intelligent member of the human race – skipped after seeing “purchase options” and I have not noticed that it cinluded links to free download.
I am reading the book right now (the part about Poland) while checking the primary source and it seems Sanning is bringing the numbers accurately (I will ignore his assertions that Poland was the most antisemitic country in Europe and his simplification: for example, “bloody persecution in Brest in 1937” was a riot after Jewish butcher murdered Polish policemen. In riot one person was killed, 27 were wounded – 200 Poles arrested by the police, who couldn’t stop the crowd). So this is his argument:
(1) He doubts Polish emmigration statistics, because he calculated that there are 56.000 missing young Jewish males, and he does not believe that there would be less male heads of families than young males (eh? why not?). Because of that, surely there would be more immigrants
(2) At the same time, he still thinks immigration consisted mostly of young males, preventing family formation.
(3) The Polish data for emmigration to Palestine I have found is about 68 thousands after 1931, and he says the influx IS 68 thousands in 1934/37 (plus maybe some “others” from Russia). So it’s pretty much on the same level of magnitude.
(4) Polish source also gives total number of emigrants to “out-of-europe” countries to 164 thousands. Sannings arguments that many more Jews would emigrate to USA
So I do not think the Polish data on emmigration is “ridiculous”. Sannings does not even mention the fact that USA imposed quotas on immigration from Poland. ” Polish Jews enjoyed the closest ties of kinship to hundreds of thou-sands of Jews in the U.S” does not matter, when US quota for immigrants from Poland was six thousand per year. For total Polish emigration, despite dire economic conditions, oficial data showed drastic cut in emmigration: for example, Polish data shows 178 thousands Polish emigrants to European countries in 1929, 64k Polish emigrants to European countries in 1931 and only 11 thousands in 1932, then averaging 20 thousands yearly until 1937 when it rised again to 78 thousands; to extra-european countries, it was 65 thousands in 1929, 11 thousands in 1930 and 9 thousands in 1931, and then staying in the level of 20-30 thousands.
Does Sannings suggest that the restrictions resulted in drop of Polish emigrants, but not Jewish? Or does he suggest that Polish data is falsifed with regards to all emigrants, not just Jewish? He quotes source suggesting the number of Jewish emigrants as 100k yearly: sometimess three times higher than the official number of ALL Polish emmigrants.
The most interesting and compelling part is his argument about demography. It sure looks like Jewish fertility fell like a stone in 1930. He argues then that total natural increase would be then only about 10 thousands per year (hence, 90 thousands in plus instead of 900k I have argued before). This does not seem unreasonable, but also does not seem to be 100% given. Since in previous cohorts there was rebound, it could be same here, OR fertility could drop further.
But would the “missing young males” really cause further drop in birth number? The phenomenon has not started in 1930. The number of excess males per cohort is roughly 14 thousands to 40-50 y/o, 13 thousands 50-60 y/o, 35 thousands 30-40 (25k 30-35, 10k 35-40), and then about 40 thousand 20-30, while roughly equal for other cohorts.
If accepting his numbers about immigration that would mean that indeed, the 2.6 mln or even 2.5 mln number is not impossible (but also, not proven). But I do not believe his numbers about immigration, meaning that if his assumption about demography is ok, the number of Polish Jews would be 2.9mln.
Another thing is the claim that Soviets deported one million of Polish Jews from western Poland to Siberia. That number is most likely inflated, just like Polish initial reports about deportations of ethnic Poles. The mortality during transport is inflated; Polish sources claim that in “cold crematorias” about 10% of transported died.
While digging, I also encountered that this data (high emigration of the young and falling fertility) are freely admitted in demographic studies I’ve found. Yet those studies still claim 3.4 mln Jews in 1939.
Laughing at White women, I see. All the goytards who laugh along with you while fretting about Jewish sensibilities show that they know exactly who is running this here show, and it’s not us, despite the manosphere’s incessant crying about the fictitious “matriarchy.”
Must be that time of the month.
What, ‘standard literature’ like Daniel Goldhagen, Robert Conquest, Deborah Lipstadt, Hugh Trevor-Roper and Alan Dershovitz? If you’re so concerned with peer-reviews and credentialism, what drew you to this site in the first place?
Nobody here but tools like Wally is denying any mass killing ever took place, but don’t the wildly fluctuating numbers and endless fabricated memoirs even make you a bit skeptical? Possibly as many Germans perished in the aftermath of WW2 as the Jews, but this somehow hasn’t made a dent for you.
Your whole mentality if retaining ‘respectability’ is akin to a picked on schoolboy who thinks by quietly huddling in the corner the other pupils will leave him alone, when it has precisely the opposite effect.
A qualitative proof of the Holocaust is the approximately three decade hiatus (say, 1930-1965) in the runaway Weimarification of the West. One could say that the Hebrew herd had been winnowed, the survivors learning to make themselves scarce.
Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.
White antisemite – I really hate the fucking Jews but I deny the Holocaust.
Muslim antisemite – I really hate the fucking Jews and I celebrate the Holocaust what a pity Sheikh Hitler couldn’t complete his noble task.
The Muslim position is consistent and doesn’t suffer from cognitive dissonance.
Thanks for summarizing the text.
He also wrote a lot about evacuation of cities; I have no time to verify that, but the claims that 80% of Jews were evacuated seems incredulous to me (like claiming that Soviets evacuated 94% of Jewish population of Minsk).
Just one example, on which I spent some more time googling:
Even if the information is true, not exxagerated and accurate, he still seems to forget
that – per analogy to Polish civilians panic in 1939 – people might try run, be outrunned and then return after some time. They could be killed en route (due to general war conditions, i.e. strafing, shelling, starvation OR due to executions if caught by the Germans). They could went into forests
in hiding.
In fact, I’ve googled that baranowicze ghetto had 13.000 Jews, other source claims 15.000 from baranowicze and other settlements nearby. Google claims in 1939 there were 12.000 Jews living in Baranowicze. I’ve found also another Polish source claiming 26 287 inhabitants in 1936 and 27400 in 1939. One Belarussian site claims there were 12.000 Jews od which 3 thousand were Jews who escaped from Poland. All in all it seems to me that claim that 90% of Jews were evacuated from Baranowicze is false. I have no time to verify it deeper, but Sanning seems to uncritically believe the sources which fit his idea, while being overly critical when the source does not fit.
As far as I am concerned Auschwitz is dead, the narrative has collapsed due to devastating revisionist criticism by the likes of Faurrison, Germar and Carlo Mattogno (easily the greatest revisionist historian). The last great hope of the mainstream Historians Jean claude Pressac sharply reduced the bodycount to 600K and before his death even wondered if the NDSAP policy towards the Jews could be classified as Genocide and for this he was shitcanned. Van Pelt the mainstream dutch historian admitted as such.
https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2009/12/27/a_case_for_letting_nature_take_back_auschwitz.html
Regarding the Aktion Reinhardt camps I just don’t buy the revisionist take that they were ‘Transit Camps’ that sounds absurd and preposterous. The AR project was headed by the T4 euthanasia people, that should tell you something, however their are enormous technical problems which have been highlighted by the revisionists and IMO the only way to reconcile these wildly differing narratives is to sharply reduce the death toll.
As one reads revisionist literature one is amazed at the sheer amateurishness of the holocaust, what a clumsy, ramshackle, shoestring budget DIY genocide it was. They didn’t use sophisticated Zyklon blowing machines in Auschwitz which they had on hand and instead were stupidly throwing the pellets into a room. They didn’t have crematoriums in the AR extermination camps! It didn’t occur to them to cremate the mass shooting victims on the eastern front immediately but then 2-3 yrs later send teams to exhume the remains from thousands of places and cremate them! This sheer stupidity shows you that they never had a policy to exterminate the jews but faced with defeat by the Red Army hastily organized a chaotic genocide.
This thread reveals Karlin’s blog as the most hasbara infested on Unz Review.
Cont. my thoughts of the Sannings claim on Jewish mortality and low growth. I can’t find a decent source about mortality, so I went with summing the births since 1921 to 1931 (TEN years, not five as i stupidly wrote in one of the comments above) we have something like 720 live births. The growth was half a million (250 increase + immigration). So there were some 200 thousands deaths at most, but let’s say 25 thousands yearly. With 52 thousand live births in 1931, that would mean the natural increase was, say, 25 thousands, not 10; and from 1931 to 1939, that would be at least 315 thousands, so 3.43 mln Jews in 1939, minus immigrants. Taking my previous estimated based on available data (because I could only found summaries for different periods) of 250k immigrants (which is probably way too high, since total immigration from Poland decreased due to restrictions by foreign countries) and even increasing it to 375 thousand (allowing similar level of illegal immigration as found by Patek with Palestine), that would still mean more than 3 million Jews in 1939.
But: I do not think the live births would fall even more, because the larger cohorts were going into reproductive age, and I do not think the number of immigrants really was that high.
Not one of these names is considered big names among holocaust historians.
Robert Conquest – historian of Stalinism
Deborah Lipstadt – expert/historian of holocaust denial (I don’t know if it’s useful to have such people, but she’s definitely not an expert of the holocaust itself)
Alan Dershowitz – lawyer, nothing to do with historiography
Hugh Trevor-Roper – never heard of him
Daniel Goldhagen – considered a crank by the big names (Browning, Evans, etc.)
The most important authors in the field of holocaust historiography are people like Christopher Browning, Raul Hilberg, Saul Friedländer, Yehuda Bauer, Götz Aly, Christian Gerlach, etc. I don’t like all of these, I find the most reliable the first two of these, Browning and Hilberg.
Interestingly Hilberg estimates the number of victims using two different methods (one based on German documents regarding the killing centers and their estimates of the numbers killed or died while in captivity, and another one based on population statistics), and both ways he calculates 5.1 million victims. He arrived at these numbers already in the 1960s and stuck to them until his death in 2007.
So based on your study what is the bodycount? How many Jews ‘disappeared’?
I was not doing the count of how many dissappeared, I was only checking Sanning claims wrt Poland pre-war population.
In fact, I have found the mortality data. In English; funny thing, in English it was easier to find than in Polish. The claim was source by “Mały rocznik statystyczny” from 1938, with a claim that Jewish morality was 10.5 (compared to 14.4 for general population). That means 30.000 deaths anually, not 40-45 thousand as Sanning had claimed. In fact, if the mortality would be as high as he claimed, the number of live births simply MUST have been greater than reported in Second Polish census, as I have shown above; otherwise, there could not be as great growth in Jewish population. OR, of course, some part of Jewish population was missed in the initial census, which is also a distinct possibility – with 720 thousand live births and 250 thousands increase and 250 thousands emigration (probably higher!), if the deaths would be 40 thousands yearly, that would mean 180.000 Jews immigrate INTO Poland (720-(250+400))+x=250, so x=250-70, x=180) between 1921 and 1931, or were not captured in the first census. Possible? Sure. But Sanning does not even address the issue.
The thing is that Sanning seems to be aware of the claim of lower mortality and yet he decided to ignore it and accept other sources which gave higher mortality.
Which means he is very selective with regards to sources, which should sound the alarm bells.
They changed their names to something more Middle Eastern and threw their old names into the registry of Holocaust victims.
Ie. Icchak Rudnicki -> Yitzhak Arad
Poof! Magic! Now gimme my Holocaust cheque…. make it out to ‘cash’. TY.
Yes, I have to pretty much agree with that. Once you allow your website to be taken over by discussions about the Holocaust you might as well just shut the website down. I have no idea why Ron decided to sabotage his own website.
It is not possible to have a sensible discussion on the Holocaust. It’s a subject to be avoided at all costs. It just brings all the crazies, both pro and contra, out of the woodwork.
Sorry to see you go.
Much as it’s against my own interests, I agree that commenting online may not be the absolute best use of time. That said, it’s sad that this was in reaction to the troll utu.
Anyhow, just FTR, you’re welcome back anytime.
https://m.france24.com/en/20090919-ahmadinejads-holocaust-denial-sparks-outrage-
SHUT IT DOWN
Very good points here and in your other comments.
People should learn to use the Commenters To Ignore button aggressively. Any site like this will attract a few nutters. There’s simply no reason to read the comments left by these people. Life’s too short. Don’t waste time trying to debate trolls.
The chart from 3. (3) seems pretty suspect. Most of those sources are pretty weak. I.e. supposedly “95% of the Bolshevik Central Government” is Jewish. Where does this number come from? Apparently, testimony from “George S. Simons” to a Senate subcommittee in 1918. So, I decided to actually read through this testimony.
The closest thing I can find to a reference citing “95% of the Bolshevik Central Government” is this quote
I should say, are about two-
thirds Russian Jews and perhaps one-sixth or more of some of the
othemationalities, like the Letts or the Armenians. The assistant in
the foreign office was an Armenian. Then there are the Georgians;
that is, the so-called Gruzinians of the Caucasus, and the remaining
number Slavs. The superiority of the Jews is due to their intel-
lectual superiority, because the average Jew is so much better edu-
cated than the average Russian
Or perhaps this quote:
The latest startling information, given me by some
one who says that there is good authority for it in the northern community of Petrograd, so-called — that is what they call that section of the Soviet regime under the presidency of the man known as Mr. Apfelbaum — out of 388 members, only 16 happened to be real Russians, and all the rest Jews, with the exception possibly of one man, who is a negro from America,
So apparently, the slam dunk number from the infographic is coming from a third-hand estimate of an American reverend, citing an anonymous source about a regional Soviet (certainly not the “Central Bolshevik Government”). Nor can I find any other contemporary or later source supporting the claim that 371 out of 388 members of the Petrograd Soviet were Jewish (let alone the mysterious Negro commissar).
Surely with a hundred years of historical research on one of the most studied events of the 20th century, we can come up with a better source than some anonymous rumors passed between non-Russian speaking Americans, who’ve never even been to Petrograd, bullshitting each other 12,000 miles away in DC about a guy who know who knows another guy who totally said it was true. Yet the 95% figure in the chart is presented as some sort of ironclad number of unquestionable accuracy.
This is characteristic of typical anti-semitic scholarship. Find the most outrageous figures, often just in the form of off-the-cuff estimates and treat them as authoritative, definitive scholarship. (Meanwhile totally disregarding actual, well-cited scholarship.) Then just keep repeating again and again, until it worms its way into people’s head, and others go on to repeat it assuming it’s basically true.
My sneaking suspicion is that Ron is showing signs of late-onset schizophrenia. If you’ve noticed his articles from the past year, the style has degenerated into a type of monomaniacal paranoid rambling. He’s also frequently citing sources that seem to have little to nothing to do with the point that he thinks they’re making. (Like the circumstances of Anne Frank’s deaths being evidence against the holocaust.) Or he’s citing totally dubious sources as if they’re ironclad scholarly works. (Like the random internet commenter as proof that Rothbard was a holocaust denier- when there’s no reputable evidence whatsoever that Rothbard was.)
This is all evident of an emerging formal thought disorder. The inability to rationally assess the meaning and/or weight of evidentiary sources is typical. Schizophrenics tend to latch on to random phrases or passing ideas and blow up whatever they’ve read into something totally different than how a rational person would judge it. I’ve watched a few friends descent into schizophrenia, and unfortunately the stuff that Unz has been writing as of late is very reminiscent of how a high-IQ, highly intellectually inquisitive person sounds when he first starts manifesting the disease.
Did an Armenian sleep with your sister or ex gf?
I notice a pattern of passive aggressive commentary on your part when Armenians are mentioned.
For example, in this post your off handed, but unsourced claim, that Armenians are related to Jews.