Homosexuality and Honor Killings in the Arab World

Approval of them seem to be strongly correlated… at least according to this recent BBC poll.

That is a rather more puzzling result than the fact that Arab religiosity is going down (through from a very high base), especially amongst the young. This has been frequently noted, by Razib Khan and others. Atheist YouTube is more powerful than the mullahs.

And yet despite this very strange result, nobody else seems to have pointed it out on the 2,500 comment /r/worldnews thread about it.

Comments

  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. jimmyriddle says

    This makes sense if homosexuality is more common in those places with extreme segregation of the sexes

    Many Muslim men never interact with unrelated women, and discreet homosex is tolerated (or, in the case of Pashtuns, celebrated).

  3. Tony Soprano and gay sex (and jails). Explains it all.

  4. Maybe not so puzzling or very strange. Respondents might be more likely to have participated in honor killings or have friends and relatives who have done so, than consider themselves homosexual or have friends and relatives who are homosexual. Also you’re comparing something once approved, now disapproved and something once disapproved, now approved. During a transition of values period, you may get all sorts of polling results with such a comparison.

  5. makes sense imo

    if honor killing is about enforcing a particular marriage system then homosexuality could be seen as a safety valve.

  6. it’s a bit like pederasty (or adult transgender male prostitutes) going with female infanticide.

  7. Almost Missouri says

    “This makes sense if homosexuality is more common in those places with extreme segregation of the sexes”

    Could be. Lebanon, for example, is relatively Western/liberal, and polls low “homosexuality” tolerance, which on the surface looks contradictory since Western liberalism and GloboHomo go hand in hand now.

    But I’d like to know how the question was asked and the poll conducted.

    Much of Arabia does not consider boning bottoms to be “homosexual”. Only the one who is penetrated is “homosexual” (even if unwillingly), in this view. This is rather different from what Westerners understand with the word “homosexual”.

    Also, most of these countries suffer severe cases of multiculturalism and diversity. So is a poll of Algeria, for example, a poll of the cosmopolitan Corniche or the Berber outback? Or a muddled average? Is Sudan the Muslim North or the Christian/Animist South? Lebanon is fissile too many ways to enumerate here. Etc.

  8. I disagree with such survey.
    The participants themselves realised the embarrassment and weren’t honest. Homosexuality could be more common there than one thought for one simple reason: Pre-marital hetero relation in arab muslim countries is discouraged if not forbidden. The Ottomans decriminalised homosexuality back in 1858, a full 110 years before UK did.
    ………….
    There’s a parallel with a star trek joke of mine:
    Starship Enterprise is a gay paradise. “It is a 5 years mission and Starship Enterprise has few women(at least in the original series), so the crew boldly go where no man has gone before(into each other’s back side) or engage in alien bestiality…”

    The closet doors in southern Afganistan are actually only partially shut.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/305774/

  9. Pittsburgh Thatcherite says

    In a clannish culture, rival clans violently compete against each other for scarce resources.

    Marriage is a powerful tool for building alliances, and therefore defusing violence, between clans.

    But if a a clan’s daughter is not a virgin, she severely weakens the guarantee that her children will carry her future husband’s (her future clan’s) genes.

    If a clan cannot guarantee the virginity of its daughters, then those daughters are much less valuable for building alliances (marriages) with other powerful clans.

    Honor killing is a signal from a clan that its daughters are virgins.

    This is very important in a violent culture, where clans that cannot build alliances are destroyed.

    Both honor killing and homosexuality give clans a competitive advantage against rival clans.

  10. Haruto Rat says

    What this means depends a lot on how the questions were worded. (And even if I knew I don’t speak Arab, unfortunately.)

    One thing to note is that criminal subcultures often manage to combine extreme verbal disapproval of homosexuality with practical tolerance of it (see e.g. ponyatiya).

  11. Anyone who opposes honour killing is a homosexual.

  12. Bragadocious says

    I wonder if the dear old Beeb would run a chart on the acceptance of honor killing among…wait for it…Britons. I bet the number’s fairly high.

  13. Afghanistan: bacha bazi and honor killings are a-okay.

  14. Anonymoose says

    Certain “Britons”.

  15. I`d like to know what whites there think about it. Maybe even a trend, not just some percent number.
    Should it start growing, would it mean eternal anglo finding its balls back, or just crawling islamization?

  16. Anonymoose says

    Jordan is the sole exception on this list. Approval of honour killings is three times higher than homosexuality. And hilariously its one of the more politically “liberal” Muslim countries. Also less people are religious in Yemen than before according to the bbc article. War and starvation have an effect?

  17. One would think that war and starvation should have an opposite effect.

  18. reiner Tor says

    Powerful!

  19. Anonymoose says

    actually meant to say less Yemenis irreligious now than before. Silly typo. Yes one would think that all the bombings, starvation and cholera with calls to Allah being unanswered would have a negative religious effect.

  20. ‘actually meant to say less Yemenis irreligious now than before. Silly typo. Yes one would think that all the bombings, starvation and cholera with calls to Allah being unanswered would have a negative religious effect.’

    People turn to God because they start needing him to be there, not because they start thinking he is there.

    The ‘there are no atheists in foxholes’ principle. Hackneyed, but the point’s valid.

  21. EldnahYm says

    One suspects Richard Francis Burton would be unsurprised by these results.

  22. An oldie but goody: Q: What do the USS Enterprise and toilet paper have in common? A: They both orbit Uranus wiping out Klingons.

  23. James N. Kennett says

    Religiosity might appear to be decreasing because, in countries where the government imprisons Islamists and does not follow due process, people might not want to announce their religiosity.

    This might be different in Saudi Arabia, where Islamism is tolerated.

  24. Just curious since I am not Orthodox. What is the punishment of adulterers in Orthodoxy? What if a married woman cheated her husband in Russia, not in modern-day Russia, but when it was tsarist?

  25. anonymous1963 says

    My friend served several tours in Afghanistan with the Canadian army. He told me gay sex (and among other things, beastiality) is widespread there. He felt lack of access to females, at least for unmarried males, was a big part of it.

  26. You raised an interesting issue on how the questions were worded.
    According to the Holy Koran:”when a man mounts another man, the throne of Allah shakes”
    The Holy Bible also has similar wordings like “when a man ies with another man…”
    I once mentioned the issue to a Lubavitcher, he said the queer jews in NY had mitigated the issue by fucking standing up(‘march in’ is the word). I suspect the muslim arabs have similar apologetics.
    …………
    I also read that if the queer arab on top during the act didn’t ‘love’ the recipient ‘bottom’, it was just masturbation, ie, no big deal. Of course man to man oral sex is also just masturbation.

  27. What if a married woman cheated her husband in Russia, not in modern-day Russia, but when it was tsarist?

    Church repentance. But in the middle ages, a husband could kill an unfaithful wife (and her lover)

  28. Hibernian says

    Q: Where was God during (name of atrocity here)?

    A/Q: Where was man?

  29. Anonymoose says

    Bacha Bazi. Basically its pederasty. The taliban tried to ban it but its still practiced by warlords.

  30. “That is a rather more puzzling result than the fact that Arab religiosity is going down (through from a very high base), especially amongst the young.”

    I’m not sure to what extent religion may have originally dictated these values, as opposed to having absorbed them from the cultural setting within which the religion first arose. If the main vector of influence is the latter, then this could explain in part why certain atavistic values can survive the decline of the religion they are associated with.

    The other part could also be due to the social structures adopted in response to the environmental pressures in certain regions, as some commenters here have observed. A few decades ago I had a somewhat older Palestinian-American friend who was stuck in an unhappy marriage which he felt compelled to endure. His explanation of this situation, in light of the family and clan dynamics within his culture, and their relationship to environmental pressures in the Old Country, mirrored some of the observations made by others above. However, he did assert that the deterrent for unapproved behavior in his community was shame and ostracism rather than violence, which comports with my sense of this man, his family and friends– they were basically gentlefolk.