Map of QNW+SAS+GEO (IQ tests, international standardized test, and geographic imputation) national IQ on the basis of David Becker’s National IQ dataset v1.3.3.
David Becker has done yeoman work validating Richard Lynn’s datasets to produce the world’s most comprehensive national IQ database (James Thompson has written about this at UR). Sole purpose of this post is to make the core data available in easy to access HTML format, as it only currently seems to be available as a zipped Excel file on Becker’s website. So consider this a reference post.
Latest versions are available at the National IQ dataset page on Becker’s blog, with the current version 1.3.3 dating from June 2019.
Selecting the five most interesting collections of estimates, a brief explanation of each one, by column:
- NIQ – national IQ, in this case, the average of QNW and SAS (see below); the national IQ of countries without data are estimated as the mean of their neighboring countries (this is a valid method, e.g. see Gelade 2008). This is probably the single best estimate we have. According to Becker: “QNW+SAS is the best, since it combines weighted estimates of psychometric intelligence measurement with results from international school assessment studies. Therefore, it is a kind of self-validation within this variable.“
- QNW – last major analysis of David Becker, based on 683 IQ tests from around the world, adjusted for both quality and sample size.
- SAS – standardized assessment scores (PISA, TIMSS, PIRLS)
- L&V02 – old Lynn & Vanhanen estimates from IQ and the Wealth of Nations (2002), with geographic imputation. This seems to be the most common dataset on the Internet, but it’s also the most outdated/least accurate by now.
- L&V12 – updated Lynn & Vanhanen figures from Intelligence: A Unifying Construct for the Social Sciences (2012), again with geographic imputation.
Important note: Results aren’t super-reliable for individual countries that haven’t done many tests, e.g. most small countries outside the First World. E.g., Belarus’ high score (101.6) is based on one test, whereas in PISA 2018, it was 1.5 points below Russia. Obviously, there are no results from North Korea at all, and the geographic imputation for it is almost certainly inaccurate, given its peculiar status. However, this does not invalidate national IQ measurements, for the same reason that estimates of even something as important and ubiquitous as GDP are not useless even though they are also subject to considerable uncertainty. Main purpose of these datasets is to identify global patterns and provide a powerful explanatory variable for national socio-economic success.
Mean world IQ ≈ 86-87, about one standard deviation lower than in the developed OECD countries and China.
| Country | NIQ | QNW | SAS | L&V02 | L&V12 |
| Afghanistan | 82.1 | 83.0 | 75.0 | ||
| Albania | 81.7 | 81.7 | 90.0 | 82.0 | |
| Algeria | 76.0 | 76.0 | 84.0 | 84.2 | |
| Andorra | 95.3 | 97.0 | |||
| Angola | 75.1 | 75.1 | 69.0 | 71.0 | |
| Antigua and Barbuda | 70.4 | 75.0 | 74.0 | ||
| Argentina | 87.5 | 95.5 | 79.4 | 96.0 | 92.8 |
| Armenia | 88.8 | 88.8 | 93.0 | 93.2 | |
| Australia | 99.3 | 99.5 | 99.0 | 98.0 | 99.2 |
| Austria | 98.6 | 98.4 | 98.8 | 102.0 | 99.0 |
| Azerbaijan | 84.8 | 84.8 | 87.0 | 84.9 | |
| Bahamas, The | 86.9 | 86.9 | 78.0 | 84.0 | |
| Bahrain | 83.6 | 86.8 | 80.4 | 83.0 | 85.9 |
| Bangladesh | 74.4 | 74.4 | 81.0 | 81.0 | |
| Barbados | 91.7 | 91.7 | 78.0 | 80.0 | |
| Belarus | 101.6 | 101.6 | 96.0 | 95.0 | |
| Belgium | 97.6 | 97.3 | 97.9 | 100.0 | 99.3 |
| Belize | 62.5 | 62.5 | 83.0 | 78.8 | |
| Benin | 70.4 | 70.4 | 69.0 | 71.0 | |
| Bermuda | 93.2 | 93.2 | 90.0 | ||
| Bhutan | 87.8 | 78.0 | 78.0 | ||
| Bolivia | 77.3 | 77.3 | 85.0 | 87.0 | |
| Bosnia and Herzegovina | 88.5 | 90.7 | 86.4 | 83.2 | |
| Botswana | 69.4 | 76.1 | 62.8 | 72.0 | 76.9 |
| Brazil | 83.4 | 85.3 | 81.5 | 87.0 | 85.6 |
| Brunei | 87.6 | 92.0 | 89.0 | ||
| Bulgaria | 91.0 | 87.1 | 94.9 | 93.0 | 93.3 |
| Burkina Faso | 73.8 | 73.8 | 67.0 | 70.0 | |
| Burundi | 72.2 | 70.0 | 72.0 | ||
| Cabo Verde | 60.0 | 78.0 | 76.0 | ||
| Cambodia | 99.7 | 99.7 | 89.0 | 92.0 | |
| Cameroon | 67.8 | 70.0 | 64.0 | ||
| Canada | 99.4 | 97.9 | 100.9 | 97.0 | 100.4 |
| Cayman Islands | 82.3 | ||||
| Central African Rep. | 63.6 | 68.0 | 64.0 | ||
| Chad | 77.8 | 72.0 | 66.0 | ||
| Chile | 87.9 | 89.9 | 85.9 | 93.0 | 89.8 |
| China | 103.9 | 104.7 | 103.2 | 100.0 | 105.8 |
| Colombia | 83.0 | 85.7 | 80.3 | 89.0 | 83.1 |
| Comoros | 77.0 | 79.0 | 77.0 | ||
| Congo, D.R. | 65.7 | 65.7 | 65.0 | 68.0 | |
| Congo | 63.0 | 63.0 | 73.0 | 73.0 | |
| Cook Islands | 84.0 | 89.0 | |||
| Costa Rica | 88.4 | 89.1 | 87.8 | 91.0 | 86.0 |
| Cote d’Ivoire | 61.0 | 71.0 | 71.0 | ||
| Croatia | 95.7 | 93.7 | 97.6 | 90.0 | 97.8 |
| Cuba | 83.8 | 83.8 | 85.0 | 85.0 | |
| Cyprus | 93.4 | 95.8 | 91.0 | 92.0 | 91.8 |
| Czechia | 94.9 | 90.6 | 99.2 | 97.0 | 98.9 |
| Denmark | 97.9 | 96.8 | 99.0 | 98.0 | 97.2 |
| Djibouti | 60.0 | 60.0 | 68.0 | 75.0 | |
| Dominica | 66.0 | 66.0 | 75.0 | 67.0 | |
| Dominican Republic | 82.1 | 89.2 | 75.0 | 84.0 | 82.0 |
| Ecuador | 78.2 | 78.2 | 80.0 | 88.0 | |
| Egypt | 76.3 | 86.4 | 66.2 | 83.0 | 82.7 |
| El Salvador | 69.6 | 69.6 | 84.0 | 78.0 | |
| Equatorial Guinea | 59.0 | 69.0 | |||
| Eritrea | 68.6 | 68.6 | 68.0 | 75.5 | |
| Estonia | 101.1 | 99.3 | 102.9 | 97.0 | 99.7 |
| Ethiopia | 68.6 | 68.6 | 63.0 | 68.5 | |
| Fiji | 84.0 | 84.0 | 85.0 | ||
| Finland | 100.5 | 98.0 | 103.1 | 97.0 | 100.9 |
| France | 96.9 | 97.5 | 96.4 | 98.0 | 98.1 |
| Gabon | 63.0 | 66.0 | 69.0 | ||
| Gambia, The | 60.0 | 60.0 | 65.0 | 62.0 | |
| Gaza Strip | 77.8 | 79.8 | 75.7 | 84.5 | |
| Germany | 100.4 | 101.7 | 99.2 | 102.0 | 98.8 |
| Georgia | 84.5 | 84.5 | 93.0 | 86.7 | |
| Ghana | 61.0 | 62.0 | 60.0 | 71.0 | 69.7 |
| Greece | 90.7 | 86.4 | 95.1 | 92.0 | 93.2 |
| Greenland | 94.7 | 94.7 | 91.0 | ||
| Grenada | 79.4 | 75.0 | 74.0 | ||
| Guatemala | 61.3 | 61.3 | 79.0 | 79.0 | |
| Guinea | 60.0 | 66.0 | 66.5 | ||
| Guinea-Bissau | 66.0 | 69.0 | |||
| Guyana | 83.3 | 84.0 | 81.0 | ||
| Haiti | 88.6 | 88.6 | 72.0 | 67.0 | |
| Honduras | 62.2 | 62.2 | 84.0 | 81.0 | |
| Hong Kong | 105.4 | 106.1 | 104.7 | 107.0 | 105.7 |
| Hungary | 99.2 | 99.2 | 99.3 | 99.0 | 98.1 |
| Iceland | 98.3 | 100.5 | 96.0 | 98.0 | 98.6 |
| India | 76.2 | 78.8 | 73.6 | 81.0 | 82.2 |
| Indonesia | 78.8 | 79.1 | 78.5 | 89.0 | 85.8 |
| Iran | 80.0 | 78.9 | 81.1 | 84.0 | 85.6 |
| Iraq | 89.4 | 89.4 | 87.0 | 87.0 | |
| Ireland | 95.2 | 90.0 | 100.3 | 93.0 | 94.9 |
| Israel | 92.5 | 90.6 | 94.3 | 94.0 | 94.6 |
| Italy | 94.2 | 91.5 | 96.8 | 102.0 | 96.1 |
| Jamaica | 75.3 | 75.3 | 72.0 | 71.0 | |
| Japan | 106.4 | 107.3 | 105.5 | 105.0 | 104.2 |
| Jordan | 80.7 | 77.9 | 83.4 | 87.0 | 87.6 |
| Kazakhstan | 88.9 | 84.3 | 93.5 | 93.0 | 85.0 |
| Kenya | 75.2 | 75.2 | 72.0 | 74.5 | |
| Kiribati | 84.0 | 84.0 | 85.0 | ||
| Korea, North | 103.6 | 104.0 | 104.6 | ||
| Korea, South | 102.5 | 97.6 | 107.3 | 106.0 | 104.6 |
| Kuwait | 78.6 | 88.0 | 69.2 | 83.0 | 85.6 |
| Kyrgyzstan | 79.1 | 86.9 | 71.2 | 87.0 | 74.8 |
| Laos | 80.1 | 80.1 | 89.0 | 89.0 | |
| Latvia | 94.8 | 91.1 | 98.4 | 97.0 | 95.9 |
| Lebanon | 81.7 | 83.4 | 80.1 | 86.0 | 84.6 |
| Lesotho | 69.8 | 72.0 | 66.5 | ||
| Liberia | 60.0 | 65.0 | 68.0 | ||
| Libya | 81.0 | 81.0 | 84.0 | 85.0 | |
| Liechtenstein | 101.1 | 101.1 | 100.3 | ||
| Lithuania | 96.0 | 94.7 | 97.2 | 97.0 | 94.3 |
| Luxembourg | 99.9 | 99.9 | 101.0 | 95.0 | |
| Macau | 99.8 | 99.8 | 99.9 | ||
| Macedonia | 81.9 | 81.9 | 93.0 | 90.5 | |
| Madagascar | 77.0 | 79.0 | 82.0 | ||
| Malawi | 69.7 | 69.7 | 71.0 | 60.1 | |
| Malaysia | 87.6 | 86.1 | 89.1 | 92.0 | 91.7 |
| Maldives | 80.5 | 81.0 | 81.0 | ||
| Mali | 60.0 | 60.0 | 69.0 | 69.5 | |
| Malta | 91.3 | 93.7 | 88.9 | 95.0 | 95.3 |
| Mariana Islands | 81.4 | 84.0 | 81.0 | ||
| Marshall Islands | 84.0 | 84.0 | 84.0 | 84.0 | |
| Mauritania | 60.0 | 74.0 | 74.0 | ||
| Mauritius | 86.6 | 86.8 | 86.3 | 81.0 | 88.0 |
| Mexico | 87.7 | 90.4 | 85.0 | 87.0 | 87.8 |
| Micronesia | 84.0 | 84.0 | 84.0 | ||
| Moldova | 90.0 | 90.0 | 95.0 | 92.0 | |
| Mongolia | 91.0 | 99.4 | 82.7 | 98.0 | 100.0 |
| Montenegro | 85.8 | 85.8 | 85.9 | ||
| Morocco | 67.0 | 68.7 | 65.3 | 85.0 | 82.4 |
| Mozambique | 72.5 | 72.0 | 69.5 | ||
| Myanmar | 91.2 | 86.0 | 85.0 | ||
| Namibia | 66.2 | 66.2 | 72.0 | 70.4 | |
| Nepal | 60.0 | 60.0 | 78.0 | 78.0 | |
| Netherlands | 100.8 | 100.3 | 101.3 | 102.0 | 100.4 |
| Netherlands Antilles | 80.0 | 80.0 | 87.0 | ||
| New Caledonia | 94.0 | 85.0 | |||
| New Zealand | 98.9 | 99.6 | 98.1 | 100.0 | 98.9 |
| Nicaragua | 60.2 | 60.2 | 84.0 | 84.0 | |
| Niger | 70.9 | 67.0 | 70.0 | ||
| Nigeria | 67.8 | 67.8 | 67.0 | 71.2 | |
| Norway | 97.2 | 99.7 | 94.8 | 98.0 | 97.2 |
| Oman | 78.7 | 83.3 | 74.1 | 83.0 | 84.5 |
| Pakistan | 80.1 | 80.1 | 81.0 | 84.0 | |
| Panama | 79.0 | 79.0 | 85.0 | 80.0 | |
| Papua New Guinea | 78.8 | 84.0 | 83.4 | ||
| Paraguay | 84.6 | 85.0 | 84.0 | ||
| Peru | 81.4 | 85.3 | 77.5 | 90.0 | 84.2 |
| Philippines | 81.6 | 92.3 | 70.8 | 86.0 | 86.1 |
| Poland | 96.4 | 94.7 | 98.1 | 99.0 | 96.1 |
| Portugal | 92.8 | 89.7 | 96.0 | 95.0 | 94.4 |
| Puerto Rico | 81.9 | 81.9 | 84.0 | 83.5 | |
| Qatar | 80.8 | 85.6 | 76.0 | 78.0 | 80.1 |
| Romania | 86.9 | 83.2 | 90.7 | 94.0 | 91.0 |
| Russia | 96.4 | 93.2 | 99.6 | 96.0 | 96.6 |
| Rwanda | 70.2 | 70.0 | 76.0 | ||
| Saint Helena | 69.0 | 86.0 | |||
| Saint Kitts & Nevis | 70.4 | 74.0 | |||
| Saint Lucia | 73.7 | 62.0 | |||
| Saint Vincent & Grenadines | 63.4 | 63.4 | 71.0 | ||
| Samoa | 84.0 | 87.0 | 88.0 | ||
| Sao Tome and Principe | 65.5 | 59.0 | 67.0 | ||
| Saudi Arabia | 76.5 | 78.7 | 74.2 | 83.0 | 79.6 |
| Senegal | 60.0 | 65.0 | 70.5 | ||
| Serbia | 89.6 | 87.9 | 91.4 | 93.0 | 90.3 |
| Seychelles | 78.8 | 78.8 | 81.0 | 84.4 | |
| Sierra Leone | 60.0 | 60.0 | 64.0 | 64.0 | |
| Singapore | 106.2 | 105.1 | 107.2 | 103.0 | 107.1 |
| Slovakia | 96.3 | 95.3 | 97.3 | 96.0 | 98.0 |
| Slovenia | 98.7 | 98.7 | 98.6 | 95.0 | 97.6 |
| Solomon Islands | 84.0 | 84.0 | 83.0 | ||
| Somalia | 67.7 | 67.7 | 68.0 | 72.0 | |
| South Africa | 69.8 | 79.6 | 60.0 | 72.0 | 71.6 |
| South Sudan | 60.1 | 60.1 | |||
| Spain | 93.9 | 92.3 | 95.5 | 97.0 | 96.6 |
| Sri Lanka | 86.6 | 86.6 | 81.0 | 79.0 | |
| Sudan | 77.8 | 77.8 | 72.0 | 77.5 | |
| Suriname | 90.4 | 89.0 | 89.0 | ||
| Swaziland | 69.8 | 72.0 | 75.4 | ||
| Sweden | 97.0 | 94.9 | 99.0 | 101.0 | 98.6 |
| Switzerland | 99.2 | 97.3 | 101.2 | 101.0 | 100.2 |
| Syria | 74.4 | 73.0 | 75.8 | 87.0 | 82.0 |
| Taiwan | 106.5 | 108.7 | 104.3 | 104.0 | 104.6 |
| Tajikistan | 87.7 | 87.7 | 87.0 | 80.0 | |
| Tanzania | 74.8 | 74.8 | 72.0 | 73.0 | |
| Thailand | 89.1 | 90.3 | 88.0 | 91.0 | 89.9 |
| Timor-Leste | 78.8 | 85.0 | |||
| Togo | 65.1 | 69.0 | 70.0 | ||
| Tonga | 84.0 | 87.0 | 86.0 | ||
| Trinidad and Tobago | 85.6 | 85.6 | 80.0 | 86.4 | |
| Tunisia | 79.2 | 79.2 | 84.0 | 85.4 | |
| Turkey | 87.0 | 87.1 | 86.9 | 90.0 | 89.4 |
| Turkmenistan | 85.5 | 87.0 | 80.0 | ||
| Turks & Caicos Islands | 84.2 | ||||
| Uganda | 76.5 | 76.5 | 73.0 | 71.7 | |
| Ukraine | 90.1 | 88.6 | 91.5 | 96.0 | 94.3 |
| United Arab Emirates | 82.1 | 79.5 | 84.6 | 83.0 | 87.1 |
| United Kingdom | 99.2 | 98.4 | 100.0 | 100.0 | 99.1 |
| United States | 97.5 | 95.9 | 99.0 | 98.0 | 97.5 |
| Uruguay | 87.6 | 87.6 | 96.0 | 90.6 | |
| Uzbekistan | 89.0 | 89.0 | 87.0 | 80.0 | |
| Vanuatu | 94.0 | 84.0 | 84.0 | ||
| Venezuela | 83.1 | 82.4 | 83.7 | 89.0 | 83.5 |
| Vietnam | 89.5 | 77.8 | 101.2 | 96.0 | 94.0 |
| Virgin Islands | 76.7 | ||||
| Yemen | 66.1 | 72.2 | 60.0 | 83.0 | 80.5 |
| Zambia | 68.8 | 77.0 | 74.0 | ||
| Zimbabwe | 74.0 | 74.0 | 66.0 | 72.1 | |
| WORLD | 86.2 | 87.7 | 88.6 | 88.0 | 89.1 |
Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.
If you are new to my work, start here.
The sect of IQ witnesses must have a field day.
If Amerindians are so stupid, how is it they were able to build a complex civilisation while Africans didn’t even get to the plough?
As always, Belarus master race
Uh, yeah, any dataset that has the United States nIQ greater than that of homogenous European nations is total bunk.
The US is fill of advanced immigrants
Completely meaningless. How can any country have an average IQ 60? These people would not know how to wipe their butts.
Absurd.
Why does China have a lower IQ than brain dead Hong Kong protesters?
Doesn’t this contradict the East Asians are smarter than Whites, I mean if you count White Austrians, White Dutch, White Italians, White Germans, and Finns their IQ difference with Japs, Chinese, and Koreans is basically only about 2 IQ points, basically negligible, since all the African and Arab youths are dragging the white European IQ averages down, possibly by as much as 3 to 5 IQ points. I mean if you look at European vs Chinese classical music it is hard to argue that East Asians have a meaningful IQ advantage vs. Whites.
Actually I think the map isn’t quite right. If you look at the table Nicaragua and Honduras have average IQs of 84 and 81, respectively (considerably higher than Africa). They should be an orange hue but are dark red on the map.
Civilization is just stupid people shoveling shit and stacking blocks for a minority of intelligent people, who are always genetically distinct from the people they rule, and who have a tendency to die out or relocate after tthe waning of their civilization; leaving behind the masses of huddled, confused, ugly, deformed, stupid-looking people who inherit their identity.
The ruling class of the ancient Mesoamerican societies had a northerly origin. The IQ of Amerindians from North America is far higher than that of those from the equatorial states, for example, the IQ of US Amerindians ranges from 91-105 (Handbook of Intelligence, Robert Sternberg, p. 180).
I really don’t get what the point of “geographic imputation” is, you don’t gain any information you couldn’t get by eyeballing the neighboring countries, and you lose the information of which countries have actual data on them. A “genetic imputation” based on genetic similarity would make more sense than geography too.
“If Amerindians are so stupid, how is it they were able to build a complex civilisation while Africans didn’t even get to the plough?”
The Amerindian cultures didn’t build the monuments that are all across Latin America, their ancestors might’ve provided the stoop labor to build them but their design was done by someone much more sophisticated. If they had designed them, we would see some of that spark in Amerindians today, instead we don’t see anything. There’s a lot to be said that there was movement of advanced peoples across the world thousands of years ago that mainstream scientists would rather cut their throats than acknowledge. There are too many similarities between the Americas and the Middle East ruins. Here is a good place to start: http://whiteindians.com/diffusionism/bearded-gods.html
IQology is like any religion: either you believe it, or you don’t.
Credo quia absurdum.
The shape of the pyramids is dictated by gravity, not human design.
Ouch for Indians. They haven’t even hit 80IQ.
The quality of this data is garbage, period. I’ve no objections to some versions of HBD, but HBD advocates just embarrass themselves when they trot these numbers out for developing countries.
Apart from the horribly tiny ‘N’ for many countries two problems stand out.
Unless you’ve actually visited a public school in a 3rd / 4th world country you would have no idea the impossibility of conducting a standardized test and expecting to get some meaningful results that might reflect underlying ‘genetic potential’. Most kids in those places have never seen anything remotely like such a test or ever been subjected to anything resembling ‘teaching’. And yet many HBD fanatics actually think you can hand a Ravens matrix to a 12 year old in rural Bangladesh and get a meaningful outcome.
The other obvious nonsense is that we’re supposed to believe countries with an average IQ of sub 70 can produce thousands of expatriate grad students studying computer science or electronic engineering, etc – none of whom seem extraordinary for their social class in their home countries. Extreme clustering of high IQ among a tiny number of elite families? That pat answer seems like garbage too – it’s just not the way marriage markets work in most developing countries.
What is going on in mesoamerica? Much, much lower iq than pretty much anywhere on earth, the very bottom. What gives?
Bermuda and Barbados score shockingly well. Low-mid 90s is very respectable, capable of the maintenance of (and perhaps even creation of) 1rst world standards. I think of these places as just being tourist traps, has anyone who’s been seen evidence of “the good life” there?
Phillippe Rushton addressed this criticism years ago.
If a Chinese person has an IQ of 70 then that is pathological and probably because they have something congenitally wrong with them, and their condition will manifest itself in physical signs as well as mental handicap. They will look funny.
On the other hand there is nothing pathological in a black person having an IQ of 70, or even a bit lower, since 70 is indeed the average IQ of a black African. So they will look normal. Because IQ has various facets they might well be sociable and know how to get along with people. But their shortcoming will be in the comprehension of abstract ideas. And because in everyday life most casual conversation is superficial – we don’t usually get embroiled in discussing metaphysics or epistemology – it is very easy for some people to get the mistaken idea that blacks are equally as intelligent as Chinese.
It is better to think of blacks as being like 13 year old white children with respect to their cognitive development, not like mentally deficient white adults. they may be able to learn many things that white adults can do, such as drive a car, but tasks involving complex and abstract thought tend to be beyond their capabilities.
Oriental under-achievement is a mystery, and music is a good example of this. They just seem to use the pentatonic scale, and their opera is chronic. Sometimes it sounds like they’re using pots and pans from the kitchen. Indian (dot) music OTOH is much more appealing.
Some of these are tricky. There is no “belgium” worth mentioning. Flandrian IQ versus Brabant IQ is interesting, but “Belgian” IQ is not.
Extrapolating to America asks more questions than it answers
The quality of the data seems to drop off once you move outside the developed world, for example Pakistan is supposed to have an IQ of 80.1 according to both the NIQ & QNW model, Iran is at 80 and 78.9 respectively. Considering how much poorer Pakistan’s economic performance has been since 1950 relative to Iran’s even taking into account oil, it’s impossible to imagine average IQ levels are the same in Iran as Pakistan, not to talk of the fact Iraq’s IQ is put at 89.4, 2/3 of a Std. Deviation higher than Iran but there’s no corollary evidence to support that fact in real life.
Also data such as Albania having the same IQ as Afghanistan doesn’t really correspond to any other piece of evidence we have, other data such as Morocco having an IQ of 67 – 69 in the NIQ & QNW models is simply not possible to believe if one has been to Morocco or looked at how other countries with an IQ of 70 rank in terms of GDP per capita.
Overall the trends the data identifies is clear but the issue remains that the quality of IQ data outside the developed world continues to remain very poor and makes IQ comparisons among countries outside of Europe difficult to do.
Yeah.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/01/what_i_learned_in_peace_corps_in_africa_trump_is_right.html#ixzz54T3hD7rz
“What I Learned in the Peace Corps in Africa: Trump Is Right”
By Karin McQuillan
I doubt that Indian IQ is lower than that of Papa New Guinea. In PNG, the policemen carry around bows and arrows, and it is common for villagers to set up roadblocks and demand money to remove them.
Probably PNG is imputed. And India is explained by old tests, before it reached a circa 2020-level of development?
Coronavirus created a perfect opportunity to shed off silliness and stupidity and move forward unburden by the sins of youth and enter the adult age. So I was hopeful for Mr. Karlin. Let’s hope that this silly IQ table post is the farewell shot.
South Africa’s mean score can’t be right…
This comment reflects how uninformed people in the West are about Papua New Guinea. Jared Diamond visited and he said Papuans were the most intuitively intelligent people he had ever encountered. The police and criminals are armed with modern firearms in Papua New Guinea. Even the backwaters of Papua New Guinea (Bougainville) has produced some of the most feared international scam artists in the world, the most notable being Noah Musingku, whose U-Vistract banking system successfully netted his kingdom one of the largest deposits of copper in Asia, formerly owned by European shareholders. He is fast on tract to become the richest man in the Oceania region.
http://www.bougainville-copper.eu/noah-musingku.html
A Papuan Flynn effect would take them to an IQ range of 105-110.
There are a million anecdotal Indian stories I could bring up just as you brought up bow and arrows in PNG.
Anyone who has been to India can tell you that sub 80IQ fits India.
lmao, a third of the population of the United States is composed of sub 90 IQ NAMs. Whatever “advanced immigrants” is even supposed to mean, it does not so much as budge the needle.
If IQ stats are to be believed, what is essentially being said is that many 95%+ white European nations are no more intelligent than -50% white US.
So basically many white Europeans are no more intelligent than Hispanics and African-Americans, maybe less so in some cases?
The IQ data show why the science-fictional notion of a competent, technologically advanced global civilization simply cannot happen, given the poor cognitive material we have to work with outside of the functionally intelligent populations.
From what I remember, the Naxalite rebels, armed with poison-tipped arrows, were beating the police and security forces (presumably armed with more advanced weapons). So I think the comparison reflect favourably on the cannibals.
Which countries do you mean, more precisely?
The US is 60% White-only with 76% White-admixture. Census Bureau figures.
Other than reply to dozens of comments, it might be worth quoting one particular paragraph once again:
What is more odd is the extremely low NIQ of Nepal. A huge portion of their population should be in theory mentally retarded and unable to carry out simple tasks like crossing the road on foot. Anyone who has been to Nepal will know that while they are no Japan, they certainly are not only slightly smarter than pygmies of Africa.
I think the only way it would be possible to get good numbers on NIQ would be if some large body like the UN or World Bank carried out mass testing, right now it is just some guys collecting data from different studies which may not have been carried out to the same standard.
IQ numbers of ethnically heterogenous countries will also be quite unreliable, if one accepts the thesis that intelligence is substantially inherited AND is caused by underlying genes that vary in populations.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level%2C_List_based_on_Fearon%27s_analysis.png
Bermuda is a well-functioning tax haven with 60-70 thousand inhabitants. Half of them identify as black, but there seems to be no follow-up on what this means. Something like 5-10% (“several thousand”) are expats working in their financial industries. The “average cost of a house is $976,000” (so where do the blacks live?). Tourism is smaller than finance. For Bermuda it doesn’t seem impossible.
Barbados is more curious. Population of 278,000, where about 90% are ‘afro-caribbeans’. There are also 5% of european stock as well as contingents of indians, chinese, lebanese and jews. The economy depends on light manufacturing, tourism and a bit of offshore finance. Not terrible but doesn’t seem too promising. On the other hand, Eric Holder is an afro-caribbean barbadian. If memory serves, entertainer Rihanna is afro-barbadian too (famously bullied at school for being ‘white’). So their africans are not only hopeless ghetto cases.
Do they wipe their butts?
One of the jungle IQ tests is whether your village shits in the river upstream or downstream of where you get your water. Apparently not everyone gets this right.
Thank you for the map on Ethnic Fractionaliztion, good reference material. Though curious about the methodology used.
I tip my hat to you sir, par excellence.
Ukraine appears to be based on a single study involving teenagers, with 132 people.
Africans had iron metallurgy, Amerindians didn’t have any metalworking at all.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_metallurgy_in_Africa)
Amerindians, however, gave us maize, the tomato, potato, pepper, etc.
It’s pretty clear where their respective priorities lie.
Fun fact: Africa has indigenous abstract strategy games. Amerindians are too dumb for anything that cerebral.
In summary, it’s not that simple.
But if you want a simplification then consider this: civilization is built in monogamy and sexual continence, not IQ. Amerindians were strict about sexual mores, unlike all the other primitive (including African) people.
60% is still far less white than any European country and still the US maintains an average IQ of 100. How is it that 60% white US outperforms many 95%+ white or even 100% white European countries? Either white Americans are 120 IQ geniuses or many of the Hispanics and blacks in the US are outperforming many white Europeans?
I guess the other possibility is that a large percentage of the lowest IQ non-white Americans are not even being tested in any quantifiable way and are basically outside of the system and are therefore not being included in the stats, making the US appear to be a higher IQ country than it really is?
One hypothesis is Schumpeterian economics – mechanics of innovation and entrepreneurship.
Despite cognitive abilities Northeast Asians traditionally tend to be conformists and rigidly hierarchical which can impede ‘thinking outside the box’.
The inverse of this is anti-social mavericks and oddballs like Newton low in following rules and ‘agreeableness’ – his feuds with Hooke and Leibniz. Likewise this mentality applies to adventurers, explorers and thrill-seekers.
I hope David Becker produces a separate database containing high quality IQ estimates. A high quality estimate is based on multiple studies and restricts studies to those published after the year 2000 (reducing confounding factor of extremely poor nutrition in third world countries). This criteria might leave available data for estimates for only a few dozen countries (or maybe even fewer) but it will help overcome the distracting comments about poor methodology that dominate reactions to his work.
A general suggestion for a blog entry. It would be interesting to see geopolitical orientated analysis of IQ differences within groups in big countries. For example, do Uighurs have an IQ about 15 points lower compared to Han? The implications are racial tensions with Uighurs are intractable without a perpetual annual transfer of wealth amounting to at least 0.5% of national GDP to provide a better standard of living for 10 million Uighurs.
https://i.imgur.com/oh7waKU.png
Chopstick schadenfreude? LOL.
This all is bogus. If these figures should possess any meaning at all, they should be universally scaled: meter is meter both in Japan & Argentina.
The entire IQ religion is superstition based on a few empirical and testable facts: human collectives do differ re various traits, and this has not too much to do with culture or upbringing.
Intelligence, as defined by textbooks, is by no means as important & decisive in modern societies as IQ religionists would like us to believe. More, I would rather call it TQ (talent quotient) or CQ (capability quotient), than IQ. There are a few CQ, we all know this:
In short, old “multiple intelligences” theory was onto something, although not in the old, dogmatic way. How many capabilities are to be measured- I’d leave it to psychometricians as long as they follow common sense. I’d say 10-15.
But to “extract” one digit from all those variegated talents is absurd (I don’t buy the factor analysis argument). If one could, say, try to assess AQ (artistic quotient) from areas of literary writing, music, painting, dance, … for a guy who is a genius painter, but abysmally bad in dancing, music,…- we would get a mediocre AQ, a figure which doesn’t tell us anything. The guy is a genius in one area & moron in others.
We all know that most, virtually all blacks & browns lag with abstract thinking (both numbers & words). We know that high ability in most areas does not reflect on other fields (high powered philosophers dumb about math; genius mathematicians stupid about the universe of words & logic).
What most of psychometry misses is that what troubles societies most is not IQ. Tyrone is a trouble not because he is dumb (Eskimos are dumb, too). He is bad news because he cannot control himself, has trouble in acquiring elementary morality, is prone to predatory aggression, his conscience & self-examination are low, …
That’s real problem, not some tests about triangles & numbers.
Meh…Psudo-historiography, similar to other Afro myths. Not different from Piltdown man.
Africans, sub-Saharan, did not invent or cultivate anything:
….
No nothing.
The metallurgy in Africa is dubious.
Amerinidian civilisation was clearly vastly more advanced though; the Mayans had writing and huge cities and structures. The best the Africans have is Great Zimbabwe (really an Arab slaving station).
IQ has more to do with nutrition than genetics. Africa’s low IQ is the result of poor diet, likewise high IQ in Japan can be explained by a high quality diet. The US certainly has no issues with lack of food.
IQ has more to do with nutrition than genetics. Africa’s low IQ is the result of poor diet, likewise high IQ in Japan can be explained by a high quality diet. Uyghurs may have different diet than Chinese.
https://previews.agefotostock.com/previewimage/medibigoff/2e20a9678f23de9325742aac53c66371/z8b-2962109.jpg
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/DC3C5Y/bodi-tribe-fat-men-running-during-kael-ceremony-hana-mursi-omo-valley-DC3C5Y.jpg
https://media.self.com/photos/59d65d8274a834772329aa34/master/pass/Screen%20Shot%202017-10-05%20at%2012.27.05%20PM.png
Bermuda is a territory of the UK, using them as an example of a successful black nation is like using Puerto Rico as an example of a successful Latin American nation.
Why are Ukrainians so much dumber than Belorussians?
Obviously wrong since blacks in the US also do terribly on IQ tests (even when reared in white families)
Any chance of a world IQ table of within-country regions, so we could see Shanghai vs Massachsetts vs St Petersburg etc..?
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQj8xykc-e1gLMH1onTIR7NWdI8sYUVbj4gkLmYW46AhjA5tUmv&usqp.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTQ9DeNE3WLayzMRdcP1LI17Vy9S6Z8vx9psNAPaLaQ18JXiA-b&usqp.jpg
“I mean if you look at European vs Chinese classical music it is hard to argue that East Asians have a meaningful IQ advantage vs. Whites.”
Great point! I have often thought it myself. European classical music is so vastly superior to any music from Asia that it’s hard to believe that Asians are our intellectual superiors. I would also add that Gregorian chants are vastly superior to any Asian religious music…in my opinion. Likewise, I think our great authors, Homer, Virgil, Dante, Shakespeare, etc., are the best in human history. I do not dispute the efficacy of IQ tests, but they are not the only evidence available to us about ethnic IQ’s.
They aren’t (at least, not to the extent implied in the chart). The Ukrainian sample is limited to a single study, of teenagers (average age 15), with only 132 participants.
If the average IQ is 70, then 1% of the population will have IQs above 105, which is about average for people in college in the west IIRC. With a population of 10 million, such a country would have 100.000 such people.
I’ve read tests before where non-white foreign students in the US are below white Americans with only high school in their reading and numerical abilities.
You mix cultural achievement with intelligence (whatever this may mean). I’d recommend a very good book, Murray’s work “Human Accomplishment” (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=735E143F5E5C9A49FD1188DA457E8287). There, on pages 209+, he lists meta-inventions. Most of them are Western.
• Artistic realism / Greece, circa –500
• Linear perspective / Italy, circa 1413
• Artistic abstraction / France, last half of 19C
• Polyphony / Central France, 11C–13C
• Drama / Greece, in the century following –534, and India, date unknown
• The novel / Europe from 1500, culminating in England, 1740–1749
• Meditation / India, culminating circa –200
• Logic / Athens, –4C
• Ethics / China, India, and Greece, –520 to –320
• Arabic numerals / India, no later than 8C
• The mathematical proof / Greece, circa –585
• The calibration of uncertainty / Europe, 1565–1657
• The secular observation of nature / Greece and China, circa –600
• The scientific method / Europe, 1589–1687
Africans were less advanced than Amerindians, they had no writing system produced and no buildings of any note. If you can’t even achieve those basics then any other civilized system is more advanced than you.
National IQs should give an estimation of the ‘innate’ intelligence of a nation’s population, rather than how educated they are (of course this will not be the optimum intelligence due to factors like malnutrition, but that is another topic). Bearing this in mind, is it not inappropriate to calculate national IQ by averaging scores for IQ tests (QNW) and IQ scores obtained from extrapolating standardised academic test scores (SAS)? After all, the former measures innate intelligence and the latter measures how educated one is.
For example, countries like Argentina, Botswana, South Korea and Egypt have a big difference between QNW and SAS. South Korea’s NIQ is over-estimated due to ther strong performance on SAS while their performance on QNW is average for European nations. Conversely, the NIQ for Argentina, Botswana and Egypt is under-estimated due to their poor SAS scores.
I don’t buy it. See below.
As far as inventing and cultivating – yes, it’s true. But they’re exceptionally good at expanding and colonizing and ethnic cleansing. They handily beat the Anglo despite overwhelming Anglo advantage in IQ and technology. (It took them over a hundred years, but so what.)
So I believe the ironworking story, they must have had enough knowledge of metallurgy for making weapons.
Try reading my post to the end:
Not all Amerinds were created equal. Only the ones that had a moral police achieved anything of note civilization-wise.
An average IQ of around 80, within a society with a competent elite and managerial class, can perform everything a 90 IQ or a 100 IQ society, but shoddily, and only up to circa 1960.
They can reach orbit and develop nukes and make cars and TV sets. They can’t innovate or produce 1st class copies of post 1960 stuff.
Hence the GloboHomo plan to make the whole world into an identical mix of average 80 IQ brownish people. As long as they keep a few high IQ clusters functioning to produce what they think they need, and the remaining multitudes ara capable of maintaining Sri Lanka levels of civilization–their plan has succeeded.
At least the first step, before the microchipped posthuman stage.
Something was created by Amerinds, nothing by Africans, what the make up of the stupid vs non stupid does not change the fact who was more advanced. Sexual mores can play a certain role, but the inability to even create writing is sign of a lack of intelligence to pass a certain threshold of advancement.
My take is it reflects public education quality and availability. At least a major part.
Absurd truths beat absurd fictions every time.
The elite, such as it is, African immigrants tend to come from places like Nigeria, ten or fifteen points above the sub-African average of 70. I’d like to know the Igbo IQ. They fought a war to separate from Nigeria. Correction, Nigeria fought a war to keep the Igbos from separating.
Ouch indeed. With just 80 IQ India has
Imagine what India could do with those extra 20 IQ points /s
BTW Indian poverty has nothing to do with India IQ. China started its economic reforms in 1978, 13 years before India which launched its own economic reforms in 1991.
Today Indian economy is ~$3 Trillion which China achieved in 2006-07 around 14 years ago. Without much fan following India pretty much did what China did in its first 30 years after economic reforms.
Eskimo IQ is ~90, which is a higher average than a surprising number of European countries. Amazing, given the extremely low quality of life in Canada’s far north. If living standards on Indian reservations and in Inuit settlements were to rise to your level, they would likely have higher IQs than white people. They already have higher performance IQ than whites, indicating a genetic superiority in visual-spatial intelligence. White people average a ~95 IQ with a high standard of living, low mortality rates, ckmparatively low rates of alcoholism and drug abuse, etc. 95 is like the genetic maximum of white people under the best circumstances, while Native Americans are trailing behind them while huffing Freon, committing mass suicide, and eating PCB-contaminated whale meat.
Using toilets?
True, but (a) OP asked about Bermuda and (b) Bermuda still seems far more functional than, say, Puerto Rico.
To the extent confomity was bred (literally) into Han Chinese, creativity may in the same degree have been unintentially bred out. Also, Europeans have a greater IQ bell curve distribution, and the Chinese curve more resembles women, all hat no brim. Less genius, less creativity, fewer idiots.
Using toilets instead of peeing and shitting everywhere (like all animals do) might be a cultural thing. We traveled in Indonesia with a driver and a guide, who stopped to pee wherever the need arose. They drove us to toilets upon request, but clearly perceived using toilets as some kind of meaningless religious ritual peculiar to white people.
Believe it or not. This is the exact reply I expected. In fact I already typed it in my original reply but deleted.
India launched a program called Swacch Bharat Abhiyan in 2014. In that year just 38.7% of rural households had a toilet. In October 2019 that number rose to 100%.
Before someone says that numbers are all fake, unlike China, India is a democracy with opposition parties and independent media desperately trying to puncture holes in Govt claims. I have world bank surveys which reported that over 96% are using it. The biggest proof of the pudding is in 2019 elections. The ruling party was voted back with more votes and seats than in 2014. One of the biggest mandate in Independent Indian history.
(Why does urban India looks dirty and chaotic compared to say China or East Asia? There are sensible answers for that as well for those who are genuinely interested to know)
I’ll take Jamaica and its 75 IQ over Canada and its allegedly higher IQ. All little Jamaica’s done is gift the world with more good music than any other country, per capita or maybe even in absolute terms. What the hell has Canada given the world? Hockey goons?
Very true. Don’t forget though that IQ is uneven across India with some groups like Parsis being some of the smartest in the world. IQ is tied to things like diet and nutrition, and coastal regions of India have higher IQ due to consumption of fish.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRX-FLD8fP1pwqNihX21GDRbHlAHz_2yxbuZOnjj7-7x6RokZqy&usqp.jpg
Texting Mittens.
China’s head start is a very common notion held by Indians but it’s not true. I’ll take the opportunity to go on a tangent about the Sino-Indian relationship.
As Karlin has written, Maoism was economic lunacy. China under Maoism before 1978 could expect to achieve 5% of its potential. India operated under a socialist framework that did not completely exclude private enterprise, a mediocre but sane system that could achieve 50% or more of its potential. India in 1978 was much more liberalized than China and China’s liberalization was gradual through the 1980s, beginning with modest steps like closing collectivized farms. Shanghai was not unleashed until 1992. India also undertook liberalization steps before 1991 so 1991 was not the exact starting point for launching reforms. And in any case India was far in advance of China in economic liberalization in 1991.
Since 1991, China has pulled ahead. Again this is in spite of India in 1991 having a head start on reforms and being successful in not crippling itself like China with its self imposed destruction.
The Indian media and political class widely believe that India will catch up to China in the coming years but based on the past 30 years this is far fetched. Indian competitive behavior towards China is built on extremely wishful thinking about its economic potential and the line of thinking starts with the notion that China has a 13 year head start on India so India is only 13 years behind.
Here is an example of an Indian strategist counting on the economy to quadruple in under a decade.
https://www.financialexpress.com/budget/indias-defence-budget-in-a-10-trillion-economy/1477189/
No wonder India since 2009 has moved a lot of troops, equipment, and aircraft to the border with China. Indian strategists believe even in the medium term India will become a peer rival to China and therefore, naturally, Chinese intentions currently are to try to undermine India’s rise to prevent the appearance of another Asian juggernaut. However, Chinese strategists do not believe India will grow very fast and resources are lightly committed to face off with India at the border.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/can-india-help-united-states-against-china
While I admit China can be seen as also getting ahead of itself in confronting the US in the South China Sea when China only has an economy 2/3 of the US, India’s military stance towards China is more ridiculous when it only has an economy that is 1/5 of the size of China and the gap isn’t going to close. Indian strategists are likely more egotistical than Chinese strategists because 7 out of 8 Indian strategists and national media editors are high caste Hindus. They have a hard time psychologically coping with the notion of being stuck as leaders of a second fiddle nation in Asia. The alternative of acquiescing to a China-led Asian order is just too difficult to bear.
But to be fair to India, China has done a poor job in the areas of settlement cited and has a fair share of the blame for the bad relationship.
http://www.india-seminar.com/2013/641/641_c_raja_mohan.htm
By the Duke of Qin.
Question :
Your question has answers in two periods. The second and most recent was during the cold war, shaped by Chinese elite (diplomatic) interaction with their Indian counterparts during this period who came to see Indians as unserious prevaricators. Big talkers and little doers, whether or not you agree with this assumption, it is what drives Chinese elite opinion today.
The first and older break was an earlier schism in worldview at the dawn of the 20th century when Chinese elites chose to take the path of Darwinian materialism towards national salvation. This meant radical politics and a restructuring of Chinese society towards any ends at any cost as long as it meant material prosperity and power. This left China lurching between fascism and communism. At the same time they came to view simultaneous Indian political trends, another vast nation under Western power, as being embodied by Tagore and Gandhi. That is focused towards traditionalism and eastern metaphysics as a path to revival. This is again may or may not be true but it became the default opinion. This was actually shared by elements of the Chinese elites as well, though the losing faction. The winners of the debate viewed such a policy as childish escapism verging on nihilistic passivity in the face of real threats and India, as the eidolon of such defeated views became tarred by association.
India’s problem has always been it’s caste system and its elites unwillingness to see lower caste people as fellow Indians. Your comment, although factually correct, comes across as a bit triumphalistic, which seems to be a habit of Indians and which blinds them from the truth that a great percentage of your population lives in squalid conditions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, I think the Green Revolution has been a disaster for India and indeed for much of the Third World, as it has caused extreme dysgenic fertility;
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/fertility-rate-below-replacement-level-for-all-but-hindus-muslims/articleshow/62465588.cms
Jains are a highly educated and presumably high IQ people, and they have an abysmal fertility rate of 1.2 which is East Asian levels! The population explosion has been bad for living standards. It’s crazy how Indian government officials have still not pushed a one-child or two-child policy, it’s going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better.
https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/2_Probabilistic%20Projections/1_Population/1_Total%20Population/India.png
Although on perhaps a positive note, India does seem to be witnessing falling fertility rate naturally, the UN Populations division used to say Indian population will overtake China by 2021 but this has now been delayed to 2027.
I follow world politics, andnit seems Indian politicians like to lie to their populations about India’s strength, right now Indiana’s a GDP just below that of Germany and so has around the same level of economic influence. Things like space missions are ultimately a distraction to convince the Indian upper class masses that they are important, all while the politicians squabble over religious and ethnic nonsense, as is inevitable in a multicultural society like India.
On a side note, I must ask, does the Indian space programme have affirmative action like other government jobs in India? I remembering reading that its success stems from the fact that it doesn’t operate an affirmative action system, but it would be good if you could confirm this (if you are indeed in the know about these things)
India’s main beef (pun intended) with China seems to be the latter’s full support of Pakistan. There is also a notion held in Indian foreign policy circles that China is trying to encircle India using a “string of pearls” by setting up bases in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Pakistan. I believe PLAN submarines have actually docked in Sri Lankan and Pakistani ports as well, and China provides much assistance to Pakistan in the military and nuclear sphere.
Perhaps you could tell me more, but why is India not signing up to the BRI? Do you think they will join in the future?
I think India’s drift towards America is foolish, we know how America discarded Pakistan after using them for decades to contain the Soviet Union, they will do the same to India after containing China. India should shed it’s delusions of becoming a continental power and ingrain itself in the Chinese sphere of influence, Eurasia is quite clearly the next big thing.
India is a failed state in every which way one cares to measure. The Western MSM has been propping up India for years but talk is cheap and reality is cruel. This world largest democracy thing is getting old and more and more people see India as what it is, a police state.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/21/police-state-india/
https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/09/06/everywhere-is-kashmir-unraveling-weaponized-corporatized-hindustan-in-indias-northeast/
http://oneworld.press/?module=articles&action=view&id=1320
http://oneworld.press/?module=articles&action=view&id=1333
I am certainly subjective- because I see this through Western eyes – but to me, China has so many advantages over India that to compare the two is just absurd.
Basically, China is both a civilization and a people; India is a civilization and a bunch of peoples held together by a glue of a religious culture (Islam being a good unifying element as the enemy). India is something like medieval Europe- not a “real” entity.
True, Hinduism may keep Indian peoples together ad infinitum. Why should India follow European path of dissolution into nation-states? Yet, if not- India will remain forever bound by religion as an infantile state of a human collective. She simply cannot compete with China, because Chinese are a highly powered secular people with spiritual dimensions, something that gives them vast operative freedom & a wealth of possibilities not available to a primarily religious culture.
Pakistan is, in that regard, even less of a nation.
Chinese nationalism is a serious stuff; Indian “nationalism” is, give or take, Hindu “nationalism”. Or we could consider Muslim (or pan-Islamic) “nationalism”. Both Islamic & Hindu primary loyalties are certainly sincere. And they have, in this respect, no future. They rely mostly on birth rates & masses, with scientific rationality peppered here & there. But- this is pre-modern & vulnerable to mass annihilation if powerful secular nations, true nations, decide that the time for the great showdown has come.
Really powerful forces are with the global secular north, from the US via Europe, Russia to China and Japan. Populous global south (Islam, India, let alone Africa) think they can thrive on biological/demographic numbers alone.
But- they’re wrong.
Secular & thriving true nations will- I think, and I may be wrong- through genetic engineering & other means make quantum leap into future power & subjugate or marginalize populous religious masses (if not worse). They’ll ditch democracy, universal humanism & other UN principles, because this entire emotional-moral-legal superstructure won’t fit well with their growth & power. Here, China and, to a lesser extent Russia, have advantage over decadent affluent Europe & north America.
Of course, if WW3 erupts – this all will turn out to be worthless.
India as a whole is right now at around replacement level (~2.2 last year I think). Family planning efforts started in 1965 by Govt of India. They pushed for 2 Child policy for a very long time. During 1975-77 emergency, Sanjay Gandhi (Son of PM) tried forcible sterilization. It became a huge issue and his party was thrown out of power in 1977. Since then it was a third rail in Indian politics. But even without force, education and relative prosperity have brought TFR down to replacement levels.
Indian politics is intensely inward looking. Global standing is not a major election issue. Economic development/ Doles / emotional issues dominate the debate. For every politician talking about Indian influence in the world you have another politician chiding him for day dreaming. (In 2004 elections ruling party campaigned with “India Shining” slogan and opposition countered with “mungerilal ke haseen sapne”/ “foolish day dreaming”. Opposition party won)
You would be surprised how much support is there across the society for Indian space program. It is not just upper caste obsession. Recently when India tried to land a probe on moon, it was one of the most watched live program in India.
Yes and no. In the administration and select streams there is reservation(affirmative action). In pure research jobs(category: scientists) it is not there.
Because India has no intention of becoming a vassal state of China.
Indo-US strategic convergence is inevitable. Today India is fifth largest economy in the world. In less than a decade India will be third largest economy in the world. Indo-US ties will not be just about China. Economic ties will also be a huge part. US-pak relationship is a wrong comparison. Indo-US relationship would be similar to US-French relationship. i.e. India will insist on strategic independence while cooperating on most issues.
Is simply will not happen. In the last 3000 years China had zero cultural or religious influence on India. It was purely trading relationship. On the other hand India influenced most of the east asia including China through Buddhism. Take Shaolin Kung-fu. Indian Buddhist monk, BodhiDharma, travelled to China in 5th century & created Shaolin monastry and taught locals Shaolin Kung-fu 🙂
I greatly enjoy the ferocity of your comments, you are a very interesting fellow indeed.
Sweet dreams. The Empire never tolerates that. France is a good example: as soon as De Gaulle became too independent, even demanded the return of French gold, the US organized a color revolution against him. After De Gaulle France is ruled by lesser and lesser figures and is becoming more and more obedient vassal of the Empire. India is making the same mistake as Ukraine: backing the losing horse. In sharp contrast to China. When the US was ascending, China forged a partnership with it. Now that the Empire is going down, India is forging a partnership. Maybe that’s why India will never overtake China and will always envy a successful Asian power.
Sweet dreams. The Empire never tolerates that. France is a good example: as soon as De Gaulle became too independent, even demanded the return of French gold, the US organized a color revolution against him. After De Gaulle France is ruled by lesser and lesser figures and is becoming more and more obedient vassal of the Empire. India is making the same mistake as Ukraine: backing the losing horse. In sharp contrast to China. When the US was ascending, China forged a partnership with it. Now that the Empire is going down, India is forging a partnership. Maybe that’s why India will never overtake China and will always envy more successful Asian power.
Logically speaking, isn’t it better to forge a relationship with the Empire while it is in decline, with a knowledge that it won’t be able to intervene in the future as it loses power. It was only by sheer competency and a bit of luck that China managed to avoid the Tiananmen coup being successful, and that was when America was at the height of its power.
From what I have read and understood, that color revolution didn’t work out because PLA was 100% loyal to the CCP. Deng was a living member of the founding members of CCP and PLA.
As long as he had the stomach to send in the troops to restore order, the coup had zero chance of success. Zero.
And your other point. I think TN meant that India would get way more benefits from a healthy super power than a waning one. In this India is late by more than 30 years. Unless India can somehow get direct tech transfers from the USA.
How do you figure that?
Here’s the 2015 PISA scores for people without immigrant backgrounds converted to IQs: https://i.imgur.com/O8CKpZ4.png
All major white countries score above 95 unless you count mixed race Latin American ones as white(and as having high stands of living).
“Hey guys here’s my 2015 PISA conversion chart that differs considerably from every other chart ever posted, why would you believe what the other charts say when this one is clearly better? Slovenian Pride World Wide!!!”
@AnonFromTN, @Just Passing Through
I will try to answer why India will join west instead of China. It is very difficult to condense long and complex ideas into short paragraphs but I will try it. Indian elite have faced 3 different and massive challenges in last 2000 years.
Second major challenge was entry of Islam into Indian subcontinent. It was brutal. After 200 odd years of fight, Indians settled into an uncomfortable status where they accepted political dominance of Muslim rulers while preserving religion/culture etc. Through out the encounter with Islam, it was always seen as primitive barbarous but politically dominant force. Even while some rulers gave their daughters to Muslim kings in marriage, others defiantly refused it. In 17th century Mughal rule collapsed and native faiths once again started re-conquering the subcontinent.
It is in this juncture Europeans arrived in India. What they saw is a civilization which went close to death and recovering. The encounter with Europeans was unlike anything Indian elite has faced before. Europeans were brutal but they possessed something which Indian elite always worshiped. Knowledge! If European elite were merely brutal, they would have been lumped along with Mughals as barbarian mlecchas with political power over Hindus. But it is the science and technological superiority, ideas of enlightenment etc that broke the shell of Indian elite. For the first time since Buddhism they faced a challenge in intellectual domain.
It shattered Indian elite and broke them into multiple factions. Major factions are (1) Since I cannot find any suitable word let me use Nehruvians. They believe that Indian civilization is completely outdated and must be mostly discarded. Adopt western ways and treat native civilization as museum piece. (2) Major opponents of this view can be called as “revivalists”. They essentially like S&T of west but not in favor of cultural aspects. They would want modernized Hinduism (more emphasis on religion and less emphasis on caste etc). Even they are not in favor of complete removal of western ideas.
These are the 2 major warring factions. Even here it is not clear cut black and white division. People do vacillate between above 2 factions. There is a some overlap.
(3) All others combined would be less than 5% of elite. This section is the one full of cocky ideas & conspiracy theories. If you come across new items about cow dung cure for corona virus, realize that you are dealing with this group.
This long and roundabout discussion is important to understand why India will not kowtow to China anytime soon. Western world earned grudging respect from Indian elite because of their intellectual output over last 500 years. In that last 3000 years of Sino-Indian interaction, China did not earn any such respect. Mere wealth will not cut it. Arab nations have oil riches but India is polite and nice with them but Indian elite do not see them on the same level as they see western nations.
Respect for knowledge is deeply embedded in Indian civilizational consciousness. In 6th Century, Indian mathematician Varahamihira quoted and earlier astronomer who said, “The Greeks, though barbaric, must be honored since they have shown tremendous interest in our science…..”
(“mleccha hi yavanah tesu samyak shastram kdamsthitam/ rsivat te ‘p i pujyante kim punar daivavid dvijah” (Brihat-Samhita 2.15))
Maybe because this chart excludes people of immigrant background and looks at young people who are more likely to have reached their genetic potential? But let’s look at Becker’s list then:
https://preview.redd.it/uqkx37h3dq831.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=b5611f621117fd4e42900828e2a42b62a02f013b
US, Russia, Germany, UK, France, all the biggest white countries scores above 95 even with immigrants included.
Indian Vegetarian != Western Vegan
Indian vegetarians consume large quantities of milk products (Milk, Yogurt, Ghee, Paneer etc) every day. They also eat pigeon pea (dal) and other legumes on a regular basis which is protein rich vegetarian food.
As a long time observer of India…
Since hard power is hard to come by, so they try to cultivate ‘soft power’, that’s why they also claim this or that ‘spiritual civilisation’.They did have a certain amount of success during the days of the hippies movement
Mind you during the 50s,china has been viewing india as a fellow victim of western imperialism. And Pakistan was quite hostile to China then as a recipient of US aids.Hence the slogan of ‘Chini hindi bhai bhai’
That’s all spoiled after Nehru giving refuge to Dalai Lama and the 1962 Sino-india border war. That’s quite puzzling giving that in fact the chinese govt cheered indian army taking back the Portuguese colony Goa in 1962. I always wonder what was in Nehru’s mind. It had been said that Nehru(the last Englishman to rule India according to him) was more interested in foreign affairs than domestic ones; might be such hostility towards china can demonstrate Bharat Uday(India shining) in the eyes of western powers. Considered the 1962 war left such a mental scar on the indian mind, such malaise could have been avoided if Nehru acted a bit differently during the last 50s/early 60s towards china.
@ 82-IQ H1B Indian (BTW, I don’t believe in ‘racial’ IQ)
My congrat !! A few reminders(I could mention more..):
–That Mars probe was made possible because of US navigation help. That’s a briefcase size probe sent to a highly elliptical orbit which could only observe Mars come and go fashion. Could be due to control problem or lack of fuel to do a last orbit manouvre.
–Great india IT enabled industry to employ the educated classes/castes but why India traders import such large amount of household(literally)pots and pans from China?
–China has never demanded “India becoming a vassal state of China.”
–China GDP in nominal US$ grew more than 10 times between 1999 and 2014 in 15 years.(Of course, pls tell me the Chinese lied on stats)
–You aren’t aware of China’s impact on indian communist movement?
……….Being said, I fully understand indians need ‘pride’….like ancient bharat was so advanced in science that the indian monkey god Hanuman was the result of transplanting an elephant head to a human torso as claimed by Mr. Modi
Correction: The indian army took back Goa in 1961 (not 1962)
“But to be fair to India, China has done a poor job in the areas of settlement cited and has a fair share of the blame for the bad relationship.”
Don’t think so. China actually has been too accomodating in settling its border in the early days of the CCP. China has fourteen contiguous land borders with its neighbors and has settled amicably twelve of them (with the exception of India and Bhutan. Bhutan doesn’t have an independent foreign policy and the country is basically in a semi occupation state by India) by basically conceding land left and right (even Myanmar got a piece of China in the 1950s) . That the Sino-Indian border still has yet to be settled is because India was too greedy and doesn’t want to just gobbled up South Tibet (in 1951) but want to continue to push further north to grab more land from China. Had India was less ambition it could have settled the border with China in the 1960s and permanently annexed South Tibet. China’s position on South Tibet has since changed and since 2009 South Tibet is recognized by the United Nation as a disputed territory, making India the only country in the world occupying two United Nation recognized disputed territories.
https://muse.jhu.edu/chapter/1189498/pdf
“Since 1949, China has participated in twenty-three unique territorial disputes with its neighbors on land and at sea. Yet it has pursued compromise and offered concessions in seventeen of these conflicts. China’s compromises have often been substantial, as it has usually offered to accept less than half of the contested territory in any final settlement. In addition, these compromises have resulted in boundary agreements in which China has abandoned potential irredentist claims to more than 3.4 million square kilometers of land that had been part of the Qing empire at its height in the early nineteenth century. In total, the People’s Republic of China (PRC) has contested roughly 238,000 square kilometers or just 7 percent of the territory once part of the Qing. …”
India on the other hand has invaded and land grabbed every single of its neighbors since its creation in August 1947. The country is not content to just settled on whatever land grab the British Raj was managed to steal. As of today India has border disputes with every single of its neighbors. Unlike China that shrinks in size from seventy years ago today’s India is actually larger than it was before August 1947. The latest flare up is with Nepal again when this month India moved to finalized a piece of land it stole from Nepal in 1962. Here is a list of land grab by India since August 1947:
1947 Annexation of Kashmir:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/02/06/indias-shame/
http://thediplomat.com/2015/08/kashmirs-young-rebels/
1949 Annexation of Manipur:
http://www.tehelka.com/manipurs-merger-with-india-was-a-forced-annexation/
http://www.passblue.com/2017/09/05/in-lush-manipur-women-work-for-peace-as-militarization-marches-on/
1949 Annexation of Tripura:
http://www.crescent-online.net/2009/09/the-myths-of-one-nation-and-one-hinduism-in-india-zawahir-siddique-2316-articles.html
1951 Annexation of South Tibet:
http://kanglaonline.com/2011/06/khathing-the-taking-of-tawang/
http://www.mainstreamweekly.net/article2582.html
http://chasfreeman.net/india-pakistan-and-china/
1954 Annexation of Nagaland:
http://morungexpress.com/desire-nagas-live-separate-nation-deserved/
http://nagalandmusings.blogspot.com/2013/01/indias-untold-genocide-of-nagas.html
1954 Attempt annexation of Sikkim and Bhutan (Failed):
http://redbarricade.blogspot.hk/2013/01/twisted-truth.html
1961 Annexation of Goa:
http://www.ruleoflaw.org.au/the-annexation-of-goa/
http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/goa-falls-indian-troops
http://goa-invasion-1961.blogspot.in/2013/09/india-pirated-goa-china-is-regaining_16.html
1962 Annexation of Kalapani, Nepal:
http://www.eurasiareview.com/07032012-indian-hegemony-in-nepal-oped/
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1239348
http://www.sharnoffsglobalviews.com/land-disputes-116/
1962 Aggression against China:
http://gregoryclark.net/redif.html
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/news-events/podcasts/renewed-tension-indiachina-border-whos-blame
1971 Annexation of Turtuk, Pakistan:
http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/suddenly-indian
1972 Annexation of Tin Bigha, Bangladesh:
http://www.dhakatribune.com/op-ed/2014/feb/20/killing-fields
1975 Annexation of Sikkim (the whole country):
http://nepalitimes.com/issue/35/Nation/9621#.UohjPHQo6LA
http://www.passblue.com/2015/07/22/a-small-himalayan-kingdom-remembers-its-lost-independence/
http://www.amazon.com/Smash-Grab-Annexation-Sunanda-Datta-Ray/dp/9383260386
http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/International-Relations/Indian-hegemonism-drags-Himalayan-kingdom-into-oblivion
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/annexation-of-sikkim-by-india-was-not-legal-wangchuk-namgyal/1/391498.html
1983 (Aborted) Attempted invasion of Mauritius:
http://thediplomat.com/2013/03/when-india-almost-invaded-mauritius/
1984 Annexation of Ladakh
https://dailytimes.com.pk/452178/china-and-indian-annexation-of-kashmir-ladakh/
1987 Invasion of Sri Lanka
http://www.asiantribune.com/node/63316
1990 (Failed) First Attempted annexation of Bhutan:
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/07/world/india-based-groups-seek-to-disrupt-bhutan.html
2006 Annexation of Duars, Bhutan:
http://wangchasangey.blogspot.in/2015/11/different-kind-of-anxieties-on.html#comment-form
2013 Annexation of Moreh, Myanmar:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nehginpao-kipgen/easing-indiamyanmar-borde_b_4633040.html
2017 Aggression against China:
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/07/06/sikkim-stand-off-china-india-collide-himalayas/
http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/geopolitics/article/2102555/indias-china-war-round-two
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/07/11/china-india-standoff-modi-has-bitten-off-more-than-he-can-chew/
2017 (Failed) Second Attempted annexation of Bhutan:
http://wangchasangey.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-strategy-behind-india-doklam.html
http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2106709/india-must-find-face-saving-pretext-and-withdraw-doklam
2018 (Thwarted) Attempt invasion of the Maldives
https://www.ft.com/content/332a5b1a-1155-11e8-8cb6-b9ccc4c4dbbb
https://thewire.in/223916/keep-off-maldives-yameen-government-tells-indian-military/?utm_source=alsoread
2020 Annexation of Limpiyadhura, Kalapani and Lipulekh, Nepal
https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/nepal-confronts-india-in-lipulekh-border-dispute/
This is reasonable. If China behaves towards India like the US behaves towards China (and Russia), it is unrealistic to expect India to like it very much.
Ramanujan, Bose, Chandrasekhar… I allow that India may have more “geniuses” (IQ * the other personality characteristics that make a genius, which Mongoloids seem to be weak on) at the very tail end of the bell curve than China. This is important, but China beats it on almost everything else. And unfortunately for India many of the top people leave anyway because they view Western nations making immigration easier for them as a matter of national pride.
Not at all. Writing has nothing to do with intelligence. Writing is invented when a society passes a certain threshold of specialization and division of labor.
Again you miss the point: Africans (from my limited personal experience with them) are certainly smarter than inbred Middle-Easterners, but African IQ only leads to more effective raiding, stealing and whoring.
You need something else to convert IQ to something useful.
Do you think America will use India China border disputes as a pretext for war? I read that China successfully took over what it calls South Tibet and what India calls Arunachal Pradesh in 1962, yet immediate withdrew it’s forces. What was the rationale behind this?
There were written languages in ancient Sudan and Ethiopia. In the middle ages, West Africans modified Arabic script to write their languages.
https://www.bu.edu/articles/2020/digitizing-ajami-african-written-language/
These forms of writing are discredited though, since they were influenced by non-Africans. The prevailing wisdom is that achievements don’t count unless they were developed independently, although white people themselves have achieved very little on their own. Written language is a given, but things like math, astronomy and even agriculture were introduced to Europe by the Middle East. When reminded of this fact whites say it’s okay because, “dey caucasoid like us.”
Then proceed to impose standards on blacks that they also fail to meet. While it might be fair to say Africans are less civilized than others, it’s a mistake to assume lack of achievement means lack of intelligence. Russia stands as a great counterexample to that assumption, given that it made no contributions to science until the 19th century. Same could be said about the Jews, or the whole of Northern Europe prior to the renaissance period.
The idea that the average British IQ is 100 and the British are among the most intelligent people in Europe does not seem realistic to me. The idea that the British have a higher IQ than people like the Norwegians or Swedes seems even more implausible to me, and I say this as a native Englishman.
The majority of Norwegians and Swedes speak 2 or 3 languages fluently and generally seem a lot better educated than the British. I’d be very surprised if their dumbest are as dumb as our dumbest. Frankly I’d be surprised if the average British underclass chav IQ was as high as 90, and that’s before you take into account all the low IQ third world immigrants in Britain.
I think there is something odd about the reported average IQ of 100 in Britain, it just doesn’t seem realistic to me and I think most British people would agree the idea that the British are more intelligent than most other Europeans seems frankly laughably unlikely.
I wonder if a large percentage of the lowest IQ in British society are not even being tested and thus are not counted in the stats in comparison to more egalitarian Scandinavian countries where most people are being tested?
rushton is full of shit.
This is rather curious. Why do you think India will need to “kowtow” to China if it partners with China. But will have a seat at the table if it joins the west?
Your reasoning?
USA was about to provide unlimited arms to India for that war. So China stopped. It didn’t want to fight a bogged down war at the time.
Here is a table showing IQs of various ethnic groups in the UK
https://akarlin.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/pupil-background-cat-scores.jpg
https://akarlin.com/2012/08/minorities-cognitive-performance-in-the-uk/
What they do here is use a representative sample of 16,000 pupils from the UK and set 100 to be the average. So it doesn’t seem there is that much variance between ethnic groups, except perhaps the Chinese who are very far ahead. Note that whites are only slightly above 100, meaning that even with all the Third World peoples they are not that much better (certainly not like in America where whites are far ahead of blacks
IQ is a relative scale, you know? British people are often used as the comparison point for international comparisons, so then by definition they have IQs of 100.
In the PISA-IQ table I linked a few comments backs that’s the case for example. And indeed native Scandinavians did have slightly higher IQs than native Brits in that table.
British working class people seem well-known for having an anti-education attitude though, which might depress their PISA scores slightly.
Extrapolating IQ from PISA test scores seems like pretty bad practice to me, as I said in another comment, a country like Egypt has its NIQ score as severely depressed by a poor showing on the PISA whole the IQ studies show it is not too bad.
We’re talking about western Europe here though, where the schools are approximately equal.
Comparing IQ test data has it’s own problem, since it’s often convenience samples of people at various ages doing different tests in different years, and then correcting for the Flynn Effect by guesstimation.
And PISA data also has the advantage of showing scores by natives and non-natives, if one is talking about ethnic groups rather than countries.
A very very large proportion of the really important ‘foundational’ ones are Athenian – and date from a millennium before anything remotely resembling the ‘West’ existed.
• Propositional Logic (e.g., Chrisyppus)
• Ethics (e.g., Cynics, Stoics, Epicureans)
• GEOMETRY (incl geometric proofs – e.g., Archimedes)
• Empiricism (e.g., Epicurus)
• the 12-interval octave scale (Aristoxenus)
Geometry is capitalised because it has such a ridiculously broad applicability to questions about the physical world – from estimating the circumference of the Earth, to working out how to carve columns (and floors) so that they look vertical when viewed by a normal sized person standing in front of the edifice.
Geometry contributed to the octave (because Pythagoras thought it up) but Aristoxenus made it clear that an interval scale based on perfect ratios, doesn’t sound pleasant.
Short answer: India’s unwarranted economic optimism promotes a confrontational approach towards China. Signing up for the BRI is viewed as an act of acknowledging a China led Asian order. India will not “sign up” but it may pursue cross-border infrastructure projects in a low key manner.
For more context, I’ll structure remarks according to a catalog of the main issues as I see it affecting the bilateral relationship from India’s point of view.
Wishful thinking
India believes it will have a $10 trillion economy by 2030. I think 2040 is a more realistic date. By 2040, US GDP will likely be $40 trillion and Chinese GDP could be $70 trillion.
Imagined threats
As you point out China is investing in ports in the Indian Ocean region. However, the context is a worldwide port investment wave. There are at least 100 Chinese port investment projects globally.
Port investments do not have India in the cross hairs. Chinese naval strategy is focused on counterbalancing the US and the effects felt by India are second order consequences. But understandably India was alarmed when two Chinese submarines made a friendly visit to Sri Lanka in 2014. India responded through clandestine action, contributing campaign money to the opposition party to defeat the Sri Lankan leader who had tilted towards China. (The effect of clandestine power tends not to be long lasting, Mahinda Rajapaksa returned to power in 2019.)
There is a widespread belief in India that China is undertaking a massive military buildup along the border. There was no buildup by China before 2017. After the Doklam incident in 2017, a modest buildup was announced to counter the huge buildup by India since 2009. India quickly agreed to a restart of relations (the “Wuhan Spirit” named after the informal meeting in 2018 between leaders). India’s mistaken idea on this is probably related to 1) misinformation supplied by the Indian military to justify the buildup; 2) prolonged border negotiations in which China has adopted a hard stance creating a bad overall impression; 3) Indian media’s irresponsible hype reporting of minor transgressions across an undefined boundary with different perceptions by each side.
Also very little attention has been given by India to the downsizing of the PLA Ground Force by 500,000 troops over the last 5 years. The Indian Army is now the largest army in the world by 200,000 troops.
Real issues
China is a military ally of Pakistan and I agree this is the biggest concern for India. As much as India is concerned about the relationship, it’s far from the worst possible scenario. Imagine if the Kashmir skirmishes of 2019 with Pakistan and Doklam standoff of 2017 with China happened at the same time. But already India is straining under a 2 adversary threat it has created. When Indians wondered why the oldest fighter in the inventory, a MIG-21bis, fought Pakistani F-16s, one of the answers is found in Upper Assam, a remote northeast corner of India. The IAF’s most advanced aircraft is stationed near tea plantations to face China.
If India joins the Quad, a proposed 4-power military alliance in Asia led by the US, China will grant a war guarantee to Pakistan. So when someone says “Indo-US strategic convergence is inevitable”, they’re probably not aware of the crux of the issue. Synchronization of China and Pakistan in the military domain would be a strategic catastrophe for India.
1b. Diplomatic support for Pakistan
Indians understandably already see China and Pakistan as fully synchronized because of China’s unswerving diplomatic support for Pakistan. China has blocked India from the Nuclear Suppliers Group, raised Kashmir as an issue with the UN Security Council, and placed a hold on designation of a terrorist leader at the UN. That last action particularly incensed Indians. The rationale is an alliance is a 2-way street. If China doesn’t support Pakistan, it shouldn’t expect to get back support.
As noted by DB Cooper, China has resolved land disputes generously with 12 of 14 countries it borders. But with India it’s different.
After the Lhasa riot in 2008, China’s views on border settlement have changed. China wants to reclaim Tawang, a tract of Tibetan land with a key monastery that India incorporated in 1950 at the same time China raced to re-incorporated most of Tibet into China. Tawang has been since then Indian soil. This will not be easy to resolve, short of reconciliation with the Dalai Lama who can then be expected to turnaround and accuse India of occupying Tibet.
There is a large trade deficit in favor of China. This issue is mentioned often in the Indian media but I don’t think it has geostrategic consequences. India wants a good deal on machinery. It will not get into a trade war with China.
There is also a lot of VC investment by Chinese funds in Indian tech startups. A lot of the investments are in apps, some of which can grow into media companies. That has Delhi concerned but India Inc is vociferously opposed to blocking Chinese investment (and the expertise that comes with it). Delhi tried blocking investment last month but caved in to the corporate outcry.
So, Haiti, which is the most african nation outside Africa, has a national IQ of 88.6, which is higher than all the nations of Latin America, all the nations of South Asia, all the nations of North Africa, all the nations of West Asia except Iraq, most of the nations of Southeast and Central Asia, and at least 5 european countries.
Barbados, which is 90% african takes it up a notch to 91.7. It’s national IQ is higher than 9 european nations, all the nations of Central and West Asia and all the nations of Southeast Asia except Cambodia and Singapore. Then there is Bermuda, majority african, at 93.2
The Caribbean could be a harbinger of the future of racial hierarchy. Three Caribbean islanders have won the Nobel Prize, 2 Afro-Caribbeans in economics and literature, and one Indo-Caribbean in literature.
The Afro-Caribbean Nobel Laureate in Economics (1979):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Arthur_Lewis
So the 5 highest IQ nations in the American Continent are either British majority: USA and Canada, or West African majority: Bermuda, Barbados and Haiti. In that order.
Thank you for you very detailed reply.
In your opinion, if India were to join BRI in a big way, would the China stop advancing Pakistan’s interests in the international forum, such as not bringing up the Kashmir issue and not obstructing the designation of terrorists?
Do you think a China Pakistan join invasion of Kashmir is on the cards in the future? Since the Indian government revoked the special status of Kashmir, Pakistan has been on quite the PR offensive (check out Imran Khan’s Twitter feed for example). If India were hypothetically fall into China’s sphere of influence, would it not be a possibility that it could end up alienating everyone, the Chinese not yet fully trusting India and so still advancing Pakistani interests, and America/UK/France also getting angry and dispensing of support for India?
And finally, what is the current status of the Bangladesh, China, India and Myanmar Corridor?
There were understandable doubts in PLA loyalty in some areas(urban troops) but the Northern troops from the countryside was known to be unquestioning.
No one in China was going to tear the own country apart in a civil war at that point. The last real chance of CCP going away was probably the Korean War if the US invaded with KMT.
A Nationalist led China, however, will be acting in many of the same ways as the CCP now.
Example this guy, who’s from a KMT family.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Ren_Zhengfei_2014.jpg
Interesting. I wonder why parts of South America, especially Argentina, are so low. I was under the impression some of those areas are pretty white / Euro-dominated.
It may be the scale of the chart — maybe one with more granularity would show up regional differences more (esp. the urban/rural divide … I’d like to see what that looks like)
Any idea what the IQ of modern-day Ukrainian Jews is? It looks like population estimates for the Jewish population in Ukraine are around 400,000. The only large Jewish populations today who I can imagine are not as well-off as their counterparts in other countries are those in Ukraine and Israel.
brazil have a huge variation. it can be as low as anywhere as higher than any country in other groups, like federal public servants
So the american average IQ is 97? That means the average for WHITE americans is like 120.
China is not homogeneous. They have minorities such as Tibetans, Uyghurs, Kazakhs, etc.
Before Modi’s election in 2015, India looked to join BRI. In practical terms this means Indian engagement in hundreds of billions of dollars worth of infrastructure projects with Chinese lenders and construction contractors. While it would be a big shift for a Modi government to reverse course and join BRI, to maintain perspective, as late as 2015, Indian participation in BRI was considered neutral and did not presage a closer partnership with China that would mean China puts Pakistan on the back burner. However Modi is probably here to stay and to get Modi’s India to reverse course, China would need to moderate diplomatic support for Pakistan. Some flexibility has been shown in 2019. The hold on the terrorist leader was lifted after the Kashmir skirmishes, which had been precipitated by a major terrorist attack by the leader in question. However, the China-Pak alliance is over 50 years old. It’s not going away.
No way. China would try very hard to get Pakistan to veer away from any adventurism in Kashmir much less plan a joint invasion. If a war between Pakistan and India does break out in Kashmir, China is obligated based on the two way street principle to supply lend lease to help Pakistan so China would indeed become involved if things can’t be helped.
On a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being military allies and 5 being enemies, India’s China stance is somewhere between positions 3 and 4, trending towards 4. I think by fall into China’s sphere you mean go to position 2. I don’t see it happening. China’s goal is to get India to move firmly to position 3. If position 2 did happen I think a number of prerequisites showing China’s shift on the Pakistan relationship, the boundary, and the Indian Ocean would have happened. Greater trust by China would have already been demonstrated.
India’s primary interests with the US are business ties in the services trade (IT outsourcing) and immigration visas. Alienating the US does not have consequences for India in the business domain due to the ideological configuration of US politics. A US administration that pursues confrontation against China will be led by Trump or a successor to Trumpism. It’s unnatural for Trumpism to open the door to skilled Indian immigration and IT outsourcing. Trump is courting Modi to get on board against China. But regardless of the Quad, Trump has slapped tariffs on India and a mini trade war has ignited. His administration considers data laws to cripple the IT outsourcing industry in India and is really pushing the envelope with further restrictions on the flow of H1-b visas (“Trump Minimum Wage For H-1B Visa Holders Could Reach $250,000 A Year”). Even worse, thought leaders of Trumpism nurse a grudge against smart Indians because IIT grads are taking positions in high finance and the C-suite, prestigious positions that Steven Bannon would want for his sons if he had any.
https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-trump-presidency-chief-strategist-breitbart-tech-visa
On the other hand, a US administration that seeks stable relations with China will not pressure India to join on its side. A Biden presidency will along with good China relations also encourage skilled Indian immigration and growth for Indian IT outsourcing. In fact, the closer India becomes aligned with the US the more obligations it will incur without any tangible rewards. India would be expected to buy US weapons (at the expense of Russia) and comply with sanctions on Iranian oil. The only reward is psychic. To induce India to join the Quad, the US renamed is commandant command for the region from Pacific to Indo-Pacific. The signal being sent is India gets more prominence in Asian affairs if fighting under the US. The high caste Hindu sees partnership with China as giving up on dreams of becoming a global power any day soon.
France and UK are irrelevant geopolitically East of Suez.
The corridor is no longer designated as one of the corridors of the Belt and Road. The list was last updated during the summit in May 2019. Following the disappearance of the BCIM, China and Burma are engaged in constructing a bilateral corridor. India is holding Bangladesh back from full fledged participation but due to India’s limited resources in funding projects abroad, it can not offer Bangladesh a decent alternative and I predict Bangladesh will join the BRI to get the deep water port it badly needs.
But despite lack of coordination diplomatically a railway that would have been the centerpiece of BCIM may actually get done in 2020s. Driven by readiness concerns, India is investing heavily in railways in its Northeast. One of the recently built railways will reach the Burma border and Burma may extend the railway to Mandalay. China will finance a railway from Yunnan province to Mandalay. The result will be the uncoordinated formation of a India-Burma-China-Thailand corridor.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/India%E2%80%93Myanmar%E2%80%93Thailand_Trilateral_Highway.svg/800px-India%E2%80%93Myanmar%E2%80%93Thailand_Trilateral_Highway.svg.png
Before Modi’s election in 2015, India looked to join BRI. In practical terms this means Indian engagement in hundreds of billions of dollars worth of infrastructure projects with Chinese lenders and construction contractors. While it would be a big shift for a Modi government to reverse course and join BRI, to maintain perspective, as late as 2015, Indian participation in BRI was considered neutral and did not presage a closer partnership with China that would mean China puts Pakistan on the back burner. However Modi is probably here to stay and to get Modi’s India to reverse course, China would need to moderate diplomatic support for Pakistan. Some flexibility has been shown in 2019. The hold on the terrorist leader was lifted after the Kashmir skirmishes, which had been precipitated by a major terrorist attack by the leader in question. However, the China-Pak alliance is over 50 years old. It’s not going away.
No way. China would try very hard to get Pakistan to veer away from any adventurism in Kashmir much less plan a joint invasion. If a war between Pakistan and India does break out in Kashmir, China is obligated based on the two way street principle to supply lend lease to help Pakistan so China would indeed become involved if things can’t be helped.
On a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being military allies and 5 being enemies, India’s China stance is somewhere between positions 3 and 4, trending towards 4. I think by fall into China’s sphere you mean go to position 2. I don’t see it happening. China’s goal is to get India to move firmly to position 3. If position 2 did happen I think a number of prerequisites showing China’s shift on the Pakistan relationship, the boundary, and the Indian Ocean would have happened. Greater trust by China would have already been demonstrated.
India’s primary interests with the US are business ties in the services trade (IT outsourcing) and immigration visas. Alienating the US does not have consequences for India in the business domain due to the ideological configuration of US politics. A US administration that pursues confrontation against China will be led by Trump or a successor to Trumpism. It’s unnatural for Trumpism to open the door to skilled Indian immigration and IT outsourcing. Trump is courting Modi to get on board against China. But regardless of the Quad, Trump has slapped tariffs on India and a mini trade war has ignited. His administration considers data laws to cripple the IT outsourcing industry in India and is really pushing the envelope with further restrictions on the flow of H1-b visas (“Trump Minimum Wage For H-1B Visa Holders Could Reach $250,000 A Year”). Even worse, thought leaders of Trumpism nurse a grudge against smart Indians because IIT grads are taking positions in high finance and the C-suite, prestigious positions that Steven Bannon would want for his sons if he had any.
https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-trump-presidency-chief-strategist-breitbart-tech-visa
On the other hand, a US administration that seeks stable relations with China will not pressure India to join on its side. A Biden presidency will along with good China relations also encourage skilled Indian immigration and growth for Indian IT outsourcing. In fact, the closer India becomes aligned with the US the more obligations it will incur without any tangible rewards. India would be expected to buy US weapons (at the expense of Russia) and comply with sanctions on Iranian oil. The only reward is psychic. To induce India to join the Quad, the US renamed is commandant command for the region from Pacific to Indo-Pacific. The signal being sent is India gets more prominence in Asian affairs if fighting under the US. The high caste Hindu sees partnership with China as giving up on dreams of becoming a global power any day soon.
France and UK are irrelevant geopolitically East of Suez.
The corridor is no longer designated as one of the corridors of the Belt and Road. The list was last updated during the summit in May 2019. Following the disappearance of the BCIM, China and Burma are engaged in constructing a bilateral corridor. India is holding Bangladesh back from full fledged participation but due to India’s limited resources in funding projects abroad, it can not offer Bangladesh a decent alternative and I predict Bangladesh will join the BRI to get the deep water port it badly needs.
But despite lack of coordination diplomatically a railway that would have been the centerpiece of BCIM may actually get done in 2020s. Driven by readiness concerns, India is investing heavily in railways in its Northeast. One of the recently built railways will reach the Burma border and Burma may extend the railway to Mandalay. China will finance a railway from Yunnan province to Mandalay. The result will be the uncoordinated formation of a India-Burma-China-Thailand corridor.
Eskimo low IQ is probably due to inbreeding from low population density and difficulties related to how they live in very cold areas. The American Indians on the reservations on the other hand are usually 70-80% European admixture so no one really knows how intelligent the original ones were. Probably not very since most of them were hunter-gatherers. In any case their reservations are the way they are in large part because of the way they are. Especially in a country like Canada where they have huge advantages over whites and can skip paying taxes when they operate businesses in the reservations.
Most Europeans in Canada, America, Australia and New Zealand are from the areas of Europe with a ~100-103 IQ. Overwhelmingly northwest European.
The sources of these data on national IQs should be checked carefully. One of the prominent ‘researchers’ in this field is Richard Lynn, former lecturer at the University of Exeter and former professor of psychology at the Economic and Social Research Institute, Dublin, and at the University of Ulster at Colera, that has been revealed as fraudster and stripped of his university titles. It was established that his ‘research’ lacked scientific rigour, misrepresented data, and promoted a racialist political agenda. His data were falsified so as to alege the low IQ not only of ‘inferior rases’, but also of the white peoples in the Balcans who happened to profess ‘wrong religions’, or even ‘wrong branches of Christianity’. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lynn
Why do white countries like Uruguay and Argentina have such low IQ’s compared to southern Europe? It’s the same people in both regions. Perhaps comparing them with their neighbors is not the best approach for such cases..
White, Mestizo or Indio ?
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