Russabia – No. But There Will be a Little Dushanbe.

I have written that Moscow – not to mention the rest of Russia – remains an overwhelmingly (that is, 85%-90% Slavic) megapolis.

I don’t see the need to reiterate something that only remains an obsession for a few liberal racists masquerading as Russian nationalists, wishful Ukrainian svidomy, and the sprinkling of /pol/tards who take them seriously.

That said, over the past few years since I’ve covered that topic, I have further pinpointed my views on precisely what will happen.

First, I no longer think there is a substantial Central Asia demographic “threat.” Yes, on paper, the number of births in Central Asia has converged with Russia’s. And almost uniquely amongst countries that keep adequate demographic tallies, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan have seen an increase in fertility rates over the past 5 years (from 2.7 to 3.1 and from 2.5 to 2.9, respectively) while Kyrgyzstan has dropped but only modest from 3.2 to 3.0.

However, at least in Uzbekistan, this is very likely just the last splurge before it enters a rapid demographic transition.

See one of the latest posts at the blog of stranger233*. The percentage of 3rd+ order births in Uzbekistan – that is, the number of births where the baby is a third children or higher – is at just 23.5% actually lower than Russia’s 25.2%. This is down from 43.4% in 1991, whereas Russia’s number is an increase from 13.9% during that same year.

This is a cardinal change. What this means is that over the past generation, Uzbeks have transitioned from the multiple children model of traditional societies, to one where 1 or 2 children is the norm. Fertility is currently very high by developed world standards because many couples are now having that first or second child. But once that process finishes up, as it imminently will – and assuming there is no reversal of this trend – then TFR should begin to plummet.

As it indeed has in Azerbaijan over the past few years. Aliyev picked a good moment to finish up business with Armenia.

Meanwhile, the process of demographic transition in Russia bottomed out over the past century, and the only way is up, increasingly driven by the emergence of “breeder” groups such as Orthodox priests and possibly some religious rural communities in the Far North. Nowhere near the scale it’s already at in Israel, of course, but certainly one can make out resemblances to Bible Belt communities in the Netherlands or the Laestadians in Finland.

Bold PREDICTION: Russia (as well as most of Europe and probably even Japan) will have a higher TFR than the Central Asian countries come 2050.

Separate but adjacent is the immigration question. Although many Central Asians come as Gastarbeiters to Russia, it seems that few of them are getting Russian citizenship. The Interior Ministry maintains statistics on this. Whereas there were 3.5M Uzbeks, 0.8M Kyrgyz, and 0.4M Kazakhstan with an immigration status in Russia in 2020, only 23,000, 12,000, and 43,000 of them, respectively, got Russian citizenship. The fact that Kazakhs got the most citizenships clearly reflects the fact that it’s still mostly ethnic Russian (other Slavic/German/Korean) returnees who must be acquiring them.

The one and only exception are Tajiks, of whom not only 1.9M had a registration status (that’s almost 25% of their 9M population), but 64,000 acquired citizenship. Considering only 30,000 Russians remain in Tajikistan, this means virtually all of these new Russian citizens are Tajiks. This Tajik transition from Gastarbeiters to citizenship has exploded in the past few years and is almost as high in per capita terms as Armenians, who have a huge diaspora and of whom 30,000 got citizenship in 2020.

PREDICTION: Consequently, I foresee the emergence of a ~1M strong Tajik diaspora within Russia over the next 20-30 years, or a quintupling of the 200,000 Tajiks in Russia fixed during the 2010 Census. They might even overtake Uzbeks, of whom there were 290,000 and who will probably double or triple.

Is this a big issue? I suppose if you’re trying to maximize for “white” ethnic purity, I suppose it is. Russia will become marginally more “Asiatic” and svidomy can crow about it. On the other hand, salaries in Ukraine are not much higher than in Uzbekistan, so I don’t know how much of an “achievement” Ukraine remaining 99% white is. So far as daily life is concerned, I don’t see there being a big difference. Central Asians are, in socio-demographic terms, much like Latinos in the US – lower IQ and more blue-collar than the natives, but much less of a criminological or ethnic nepotism problem than Caucasians. Georgians constitute an outright majority of the so-called “Russian” mafia authorities, i.e. vory v zakone, whereas Uzbeks are – if anything – underrepresented.

If fairly rapid convergence to developed world status resumes after the post-2014 interlude – as I for various reasons expect it will – then possibly immigration pressures from Central Asia intensify. (Paradoxically, visa restrictions may actually hasten that, because they’d give an incentive for Gastarbeiters to legalize their status; commenter German_reader once explained that this is what happened to Turks in Germany from the 1970s). OTOH, from various conversations, my anecdotal impression is that most Kyrgyz Gastarbeiters (taxi drivers) don’t plan on remaining in Russia indefinitely. More typical is a desire to make money and start a business back home. Also, sub-TFR=1 South Korea has been drawing more and more Central Asian Gastarbeiters since 2015, which is also something I picked up in conversations and is confirmed by statistics. With China now showing advance signs of plummeting to “lowest low” fertility levels like South Korea, we may well see the main focus of Central Asian emigration switch to China from 2040.

There were some other interesting observations from the Interior Ministry immigration statistics.

410,000 Ukrainians became Russian citizens. The passport-giving program in the LDNR is evidently advancing at an increasing clip. This makes the prospect of a Ukrainian “Operation Storm” increasingly unfeasible.

Hopefully it also reflects at least in part my proposed “31 Steps for the Ukraine” program.

There’s very few Blacks becoming citizens, e.g. 49 Nigerians. 1 Somali. I happen to live in the part of Moscow that happens to have the highest density of Blacks in Russia. There is an “Afroshop” a few blocks from where I live. When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone. Certainly the Indians, the Chinese, Central Asians are much friendlier and speak in Russia (or at least make an effort to). So yes, perhaps even 49 is too much. But you’ll see 5 times as many in Warsaw.

Just 68 Indians. Surprising, given the long history of communion between Russian and Indian culture (Afanasy Nikitin, Russia’s Marco Polo, went to India). It is Poland that is becoming East Europe’s subcon central, them already being quite visible (~1%) on Warsaw’s streets. Would probably sooner have Indians than Tajiks if I had to choose (better cuisine), but whatever.

810 Syrians, and a few hundred other Arabs. There’ll probably eventually be a modest-sized Christian Arab diaspora.

148 Americans. It’s good to have a bolthole these days. Especially since as of 2020 you no longer even have to give up your US citizenship to get a Russian one.


  • In general, I don’t endorse all of his analysis – but he certainly has a knack for digging up interesting data.

Comments

  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. (((They))) Live says

    There is an “Afroshop” a few blocks from where I live. When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone.

    I do hope you replied with the same question

  3. When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone.

    Pretty much sums up my experience in America.

  4. Blinky Bill says

    With China now showing advance signs of plummeting to “lowest low” fertility levels like South Korea, we may well see the main focus of Central Asian emigration switch to China from 2040.

    The only Central Asians that will ever be permitted to immigrate to China are the Dungan, Дунгане Insha’Allah.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungan_people

  5. …Just 68 Indians.

    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the ‘plague’, not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague. And how many Chinese?

    Tajiks are great: good looking women, Indo-European language, an ancient culture. Many coming from Uzbekistan are probably also Tajiks (Samarkand is a Tajik city).

    Overall, if the Washingtonians don’t succeed, Russia is looking at a pretty good future with huge resources and a relatively normal, well educated, decent IQ population. It is driving the Georgetown-Oxbridge crowd crazy – so they are about to escalate…

  6. Pictures that you have posted are probably of highlander Tadjik Pamiri ethnic groups, not the lowlands Tadjiks.

    You are correct about the Tadjiks being Aryan. They are descendants of the Sogdians who were prior to the Islamisation of the Khorasan the commercial elite of Central Asia for quite a long time. That is why the Syriac-derived Sogdian script was the alphabet of interethnic communication of the Central Asian peoples before they mainly adopted Arabic script.

    The highlander Tadjiks (Pamiris) were mainly Zoroastrian and have now become Ismaili, while the lowlands Tadjiks were often Buddhist and have now become Sunnis. Greater Tadjikistan includes Ferghana valley and the ancient urban centers of Khorassan; Bukhara, Samarkand etc.

    On a personal note, I wish I could one day visit this place:

    https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/media.archnet.org/system/media_contents/contents/91079/medium/IAA103974.jpg?1402394206

    A truly great man once lived there.

  7. They should indeed have a right of return. Their life is becoming complicated in Central Asia.

  8. It is nice to see Russians visit other European cities in their TV shows because they never seem to be filled with blacks and Muslims, whereas on the BBC, if they go to 1800s London, it is filled to the brim with blacks and Pakis. (I take it that they are using Russian streets as stand-ins) Though, given that I can almost count the minutes of Russian entertainment that I’ve consumed on my fingers, I am somewhat alarmed by how many black thugs they seem to have – not that there is anything wrong with that – but more along the lines, I’m wondering where they get the actors, and that I find it alarming that they can get them so easily.

    Meanwhile, I think it would be pretty easy to convert a lot of Korean romantic dramas into shows with pro-natalist and pro-nationalist messages. They could still export them too – it would just require small cuts.

  9. Probably the average Tajik looks way worse, but these are certainly good looking people.

  10. few liberal racists masquerading as Russian nationalists

    Prosvirnin and Co?

    I thought you had a better opinion of them.

  11. Taaj is Crown ye why I never thought of this? Lel.

    Re: Samarkand being a Tajik city, Babur looked Mongol tho.

    I guess we use Dastaar for Crown more, never thought to call someone a Tajik.

    We’d say Taja-wala?

    Or rather chieftan is just Sardar, colloquially any Turban wearing Sikh male.

    :shrug:

    They’re cool ppl, I like Ahmed Shah Massoud ultimately those lands belong to Khalsa not Rus. 😉

  12. Blinky Bill says
  13. I am speaking of the self-identifying Russian nationalists (Yuneman & Co.) stupid enough to go out for Navalny while Simonyan goes to Donbass.

    A self-own of truly epic proportions, but one that Prosvirnin happily avoided.

  14. Kent Nationalist says

    The only Central Asians I have ever met were Uzbeks. I found their appearance extremely unsettling.

  15. The dreamers banquets cannot profit him; only the waking know the taste of gain and loss.

    https://youtu.be/s-7fcSsJhF0

  16. Yuneman

    Never heard of him.

    Regarding Prosvirnin and Co. : Egor is certainly a racist and he and his group have clearly a very low opinion of Central Asians.

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/news/73537/brat-na-brata/

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/digest/37/24.php

    But he is not a reactionary when he discusses other social topics.

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/society/78431/sex-hiv/#.YDbgD2mu8zQ

    IMO they fit the description liberal racists that strongly dislike the presence of Central Asian migrant population on Russian soil.

    In general all Russian nationalists I have ever met would have prefered Central Asians going back home. Same for DICh people. They usually have no problem with Tatars and Bashkirs though, although some WP Neonazi types hated all non-Slavic ethnic groups.

  17. 4Dchessmaster says

    I remember some guy told me that Chechens and Armenians are usually on friendly terms in Russia proper, compared to the situation in the Caucasus. Is this true?

  18. 4Dchessmaster says

    What do they think of Crimean Tatars?

  19. Despite not having lockdowns or quarantines in Japan, the country had negative excess deaths for 2020.

    A country didn’t need lockdowns or quarantines, if a sufficient majority of a country’s population would actually follow the anti-epidemic hygiene protocols, or behave like mature people in relation to the pandemic (wear masks, wash hands, social distance, etc).

    TOKYO Feb. 24, 2021 — Deaths in Japan fell last year for the first time in more than a decade, a jarring contrast to the huge death tolls suffered by many countries in the pandemic and a signal that Japan’s coronavirus measures have had positive spillover effects. The Health Ministry reported this week that deaths in Japan had dropped by more than 9,300 in 2020 to around 1.4 million. The decrease — seven-tenths of 1 percent from the year before — was a surprising turnabout for a nation with the oldest population in the world.

    The most recent Japanese government data does not break down mortality by category, so it is difficult to say with certainty what caused the decrease in deaths. But data from earlier in the year suggests that it was spurred in large part by a drastic decline in respiratory illnesses, a likely side effect of the country’s almost ubiquitous adoption of mask wearing and social distancing. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/world/asia/japan-deaths.html

  20. AK: However, at least in Uzbekistan, this is very likely just the last splurge before it enters a rapid demographic transition.

    Sorry, but this is empty talking.

    First – there is no source for data on Uzbekistan. I would need something more serious than bla bla bla on someone’s blog.

    Second – i told you guys (Karlin and his” blogger”) that you are poor at math.

    See one of the latest posts at the blog of stranger233*. The percentage of 3rd+ order births in Uzbekistan – that is, the number of births where the baby is a third children or higher – is at just 23.5% actually lower than Russia’s 25.2%.

    No, the percentage of women who have a third child is not bigger in Russia.

    Do you know why? Because Karlin and his “blogger” failed to understand that childless women should be included in stats too. Not just those who gave birth.

    Thus if you have 5 % of childless women in Uzbekistan and 25 % in Russia, you end up with a share of women having a third + child being 22,4 % of all women in Uzbekistan and 19 % of all women in Russia.

    Second, the decline in the third + children was compensated by a decrease in childless women in Uzbekistan (see the big spike in first child). Thus there was no drop in TFR.

    Third, TFR in Uzbekistan increased in 2020 again even though 3 + dropped one year before. In other words, there is no effect from these fluctuations.

    So Karlin made something out of nothing. It does not matter how many have a third child as long as the overall TFR is high. In this case, a decrease in the 3 + was compensated by overall decrease in childless people in the population.

    So most of Karlin’s post is pretty much useless.

    Otherwise i like his blog.

    Bold PREDICTION: Russia (as well as most of Europe and probably even Japan) will have a higher TFR than the Central Asian countries come 2050.

    Man, this guy is trolling to get more comments, reaction and infighting on his blog. : )

  21. Why would highlanders be more light than lowlanders?

  22. Frankly I have no idea what people think of them, except that they are really different from the Volga Tatars. I think Russians in Crimea had problems with them, but it was an internal Ukrainian problem when I still lived in Russia.

  23. Because in the lowlands they intermixed more with Turks and Middle East derived populations. Highland valleys are easier to defend against invaders, especially cavalry. They served as a refuge for the native populations. In the AfPak Hindu Kush mountains native highlander ethnic groups even managed to avoid Islamisation.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f9/85/7a/f9857aebb9e5bad8c70c6582322b55ae.jpg

    This little little girl is supposedly a Nuristani from Afghanistan. The Nuristani highlanders have been only Islamized in the second half of the nineteenth century. Their Kalash Kafir cousins in Pakistan are still pagans to this very day.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/8a/63/ed8a633ef4ae2177260e73128a873980.jpg

  24. If there is drop in 3+ child group that could mater still in the long run. Even if there are less childless women (are there really that many before) because the 1-2 child becomes a cultural norm.
    I hope Karlin prediction are right about this and that would be huge, comparable to 2008 (or something) prediction about Russian demographic revival.

  25. On the other hand, salaries in Ukraine are not much higher than in Uzbekistan, so I don’t know how much of an “achievement” Ukraine remaining 99% white is.

    Salaries in Ukraine have been improving. They now surpass those of Belarus and all three Caucasian republics (even Azerbaijan, though they are practically tied):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    Uzbekistan isn’t listed there, but I doubt it is that close to Azerbaijan.

    Adjusted for cost of living, Ukraine exceeds all of those plus Moldova and Albania. Ukraine and Armenian data are from December 2020, the others from early 2020.

  26. Crimean Tatars are heavily admixed with Greeks and to a lesser extent Germanic Ostrogoths whom they absorbed.

  27. Yes, but the spike in women who had a first child (and second child) increases the probability that more women will have a second or third child simply because the base suddenly got larger.

    What is important is that birth rate per 1000 per anum is rising. Btw the 3 % was not much different in total than 2018 or 2017, its just that the 1+ spiked, changing the percentage.

    The US had a baby boom in the 50s with similar data to today’s Uzbekistan, that is – median age and birth rate per 1000.

    So UZB is doing pretty well, in real time.

  28. Btw the 3 + was not much different in total than 2018 or 2017

    Read than 2017 or 2016.

  29. Russian demographic revival.

    There isn’t exactly “demographic revival”, rather it seems likely the completed fertility rate will have been almost quite surprisingly constant for almost 30 years, with changes in timing (and a lot of journalists’ excitement in either direction, which sells newspapers at the time).

    It might probably finish being something like this (drawing is not real data).
    https://i.imgur.com/GCKqeL2.jpg

  30. AlexanderGrozny says

    Most Indians in Poland are students and such, not people coming to build a live or settle down in the country.

  31. AlexanderGrozny says

    Nowhere near 25% of Russian women are childless.

  32. Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the ‘plague’, not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague.

    It is not the casual racism that is offensive but the sheer ignorance of this sentiment.

    A couple of things: the bubonic plague averages around 640 cases worldwide including in the US where small clusters of cases are reported now and then esp in the southwest. (See eg https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html). It is also fairly treatable. And India doesn’t have masses dying from the plague.

    But putting that aside is the sheer ignorance of lumping together all Indians into one category when even Karlin takes care to distinguish between Central Asians. India like Europe let alone Africa is highly diverse and lumping all people’s from India or Africa is as ignorant as lumping all Europeans into one bucket (so finding no difference between the average Pole to the average German to the average Spaniard which all itself have further divisions.)

    For those who are ignorant, it would seem “Indians” who immigrate are the ones that they watch on TV from the most backward parts of the country versus from the highly educated classes or the highly industrious small business owners (as others on this forum have pointed out).

    A look at Indians in the US for example, show that Indian Americans are the richest demographic exceeding that of Jewish Americans, present at the highest levels in virtually every key sphere (from science and technology – the latest Indian American to make the news is Swati Mohan of NASA who led the Guidance and Controls Operations for the latest Mars mission, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swati_Mohan, economics and finance, law, healthcare and education and increasingly politics and law enforcement – both in the US and UK, the second-in-command have Indian heritage (tho not a fan of either), entertainment and literature as well as small businesses from restaurants/fast food franchises to motels to urban small stores). They have assimilated into the host nation with few exceptions; crime rates are low and their net contribution economically and socially is undoubtedly hugely positive.

    The question for Russia then is why they remain an unattractive destination for these Indians vs say Poland apparently (tho presumably Indians would find as much difficulty with Polish as Russian language and face as much discrimination). The Western dominated global view of Russia as a backward, authoritarian, corrupt, racist hellhole – mirroring similar sentiments many globally have of India – no doubt plays a part. This points to a wider problem that Russia has of not being to attract the desirable investment and human capital both to revitalize its economy as well as help with its demographic issues.

  33. JohnnyWalker123 says

    According to data from the United Nations, there are 907 Indian-born migrants in Poland as of 2019.

    According to official Polish govt statistics, there are 9,410 Indians (2019 data) who have Polish residence permits (both temporary and permanent).

    Not sure why this discrepancy exists, but I suppose Indian migrants might be using Poland as a transit point to illegally migrate into Western Europe (primarily the UK). So they get a Polish permit and then travel to the UK, disappearing there into the vast Subcon population and using ethnic connections to get work.

  34. “Most Indians in Poland are students” – On paper only. The universities that endorse their visa applications are fake.

  35. Norway had 0.4% mortality drop in 2020.

    https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2021-02-19/svenska-dodstal-bland-europas-lagre
    Liechtenstein: 20,8%
    Spanien: 18,9%
    Polen: 18,7%
    Slovenien: 18,5%
    Italien: 17,4%
    Belgien: 16,7%
    Tjeckien: 16,6%

    Bulgarien: 15,1%
    Storbritannien: 15,1%
    Schweiz: 13,0%
    Malta: 12,6%
    Litauen: 12,3%
    Nederländerna: 11,6%
    Rumänien: 11,1%
    Österrike: 11,1%
    Portugal: 11,0%
    Slovakien: 10,5%
    Luxemburg: 10,4%
    Frankrike: 10,4%
    Cypern: 9,2%
    Kroatien: 9,1%
    Ungern: 8,1%
    Sverige: 7,6%
    Grekland: 7,5%
    Tyskland: 5,3%
    Estland: 3,1%
    Finland: 2,7%
    Island: 1,6%
    Danmark: 1,6%
    Lettland: 0,4%
    Norge: -0,4%

  36. Anatoly Karlin says

    <10% of Russian women have not had children according to estimated of completed fertility through to the present day, so unless that veers sharply upwards, that is not going to be a major issue.

    The traditional big problem of Russian demographics, as is well known, is not that there are many Russian women without children (as happens in, say, Germany, where it's around 25% IIRC), but that many stop at 1 or at most 2.

    EDIT: Here is a nice graphic to illustrate the point:

    https://www.economist.com/img/b/608/739/90/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20170729_IRC244.png

  37. Daniel Chieh says

    They have assimilated into the host nation with few exceptions

    Especially to wokism.

  38. Anatoly Karlin says

    Other data I’ve Googled suggests Belarus remains modestly ahead of Ukraine in 2020 in average salaries, its political problems regardless. Regardless, wider point is that being 50% richer than Uzbekistan is not a differential that is going to get you any Gastarbeiters – so svidomy crowing about Moskvabad etc. that one often encounters should be viewed in light of that fact.

  39. Anatoly Karlin says

    The few Indian expats in Russia I know enjoy it.

    Some speculation. Poland is within the EU, there are many Poles and Indians in the UK (and Ireland), probably some of those Indians and many more through word of mouth realized Poland is in some ways a more attractive or at least competitive immigration destination if absolute salary size isn’t a high priority. Then once a critical mass appeared, many more started to come through chain migration.

  40. Vishnugupta says

    The Tajik language is indeed a pure form of Farsi.However the overwhelming mongol/turkish genetic admixture among Tajiks today is fairly obvious.

    The Tajikis of today are genetically very different from the people who produced Ferdowsi.

    On top of that comrade Stalin arbitrarily classified Uzbek living in Tajikistan as Tajiks and vice versa Samarkand in Uzbekistan has long been considered a persian speaking city and lots of ‘Uzbeks’ in that region today are in fact Tajiks.

  41. I think Russians in Crimea had problems with them

    From what I have seen and heard in Crimea (this January), there is no big problem with the Crimean Tatars

  42. Bold PREDICTION: Russia (as well as most of Europe and probably even Japan) will have a higher TFR than the Central Asian countries come 2050.

    This isn’t even that bold. The world is full of nations that has gone from ~4-5 TFR to below replacement level in few decades. It would be bolder to predict that Central Asia is going to continue to have a fertility rate above replacement level for another 3 decades.

  43. Crimean Tatars are heavily admixed with Greeks and to a lesser extent Germanic Ostrogoths whom they absorbed.

    The current Crimean Tatars are strongly mixed with the population of Central Asia. As far as I know, some of the Crimean Tatars are actually Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, etc. who declared themselves Crimean Tatars in order to move to the Crimea

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CEF5G0sVEAIVVTY.jpg

  44. process of demographic transition in Russia bottomed out over the past century, and the only way is up, increasingly driven by the emergence of “breeder” groups such as Orthodox priests and possibly some religious rural communities in the Far North. Nowhere near the scale it’s already at in Israel, of course

    This is probably not so good, since these religious groups concentrate people with low intelligence

  45. And the future of Russians in Kazakhstan and the other Stand are????????

  46. Those who caused problems have moved to Ukraine during the annexation of Crimea. Others behave themselves. But they also behaved themselves prior to 1918 and then under Soviet rule until 1941. As soon as the pressure weakened they started causing serious problems. Those who were 100% loyal to Russia in Crimea were the Karaite.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Karaites

    But there are not many left of them.

  47. They will leave . In fact many of them already have. The only problematic region is southern Siberia which is today partly included into Kazakhstan. These lands were under Cossacks for a few hundred years, these territories are not really Kazakh, but even there I would think Russian population would decrease.

  48. In Catilinam says

    The real threat is chain migration, i.e. legislation allowing legal residents to sponsor visas for their relatives in their home countries.

  49. Putin should have agitated for increased autonomy for Russians in Northern Kazakhstan a long time ago, considering that Kazakhstan is even weaker than the Ukraine.

  50. Well there are people on this thread who stridently disagree. 🙂

  51. The fact remains that the fertile pool or Uzbekistani women had twice more children per woman than the fertile pool of Russian women in 2019. You can do the calculation yourself, check the number of 15 – 45 aged women and compare with the number of babies born in 2019. Twice more per fertile woman in UZB.

    If his data is right, then this means that right now, lots of russian women are deciding to remain childless. A group that he for some reason does not include in his “stats”.

    It is possible that the spike in 3rd + in Uzb in 2018 was followed by a drop in 2019 to return to equilibrium. There is only a certain amount of women who want 3 + children. If for some reason their births spiked in 2018, then the amount of women wanting to have 3rd + has decreased, affecting the next 2019 year and causing a drop.

    It is also possibe that his data is a sham, because it is not very consistent with Uzbekistani birth rate per anum per 1000, which is quite high, as well as with the birth rate per fertile women per anum, which is twice higher than in Russia.

    In 2020 Uzbekistan had similar birth rate per 1000 to the US during the Baby Boom in the 1950s.

  52. To be honest, should the current form of globalisation continue (and I expect that it will), immigration to other countries is inevitable. I fully expect countries like Russia and even places like Poland and Hungary to have their minority populations firmly established eventually. However such minorities eventually ‘whiten up’ so its not a huge issue in the long run (unless you are a purist)

    The key difference though is between a bit of immigration vs mass nation changing immigration. The majority of Slavs I have spoken too are fine with the former but the idea of inviting the whole world into their countries and becoming a minority in such a short space of time is simply an unattractive proposition.

    What the West ultimately seeks is nothing more than the birth of a new globalised man, the perfect new coffee coloured collective that will bring absolute unity and peace throughout the world. The mass destruction of traditional white communities is a necessary evil to achieve this great utopia.

    On current trends, I predict that Western countries will be majority-minority within 30 years (mainly the cities with the rural hinterlands belonging to the traditional demographic) where as the majority of Russian and EE citiew wont really see too much of a change.

  53. Yes, and my views are not rare.

    From what i hear there is some kind of re-primitivisation going on in Central Asia, which could be causing the rise of their birth rate per year compared to 2000 birth rate per year.

  54. Yet in 2019 fertile russian women gave birth to twice less children per woman than fertile uzbek women. That indicates that a lot more russian women are choosing to remain childless.

  55. china-russia-all-the-way says

    In the trendy Sanlitun neighborhood, the whitest street in Beijing is perpendicular to the blackest street circa 2019. The number of any foreigners has thinned out since then. During the pandemic up to now it is very hard to get a visa to come to Beijing.

    https://i.imgur.com/VSghZpl.png

  56. Perhaps, they could get the 68 to return and thus draw the millions in the rest of Europe eventually back to India?

  57. What the West ultimately seeks is nothing more than the birth of a new globalised man, the perfect new coffee coloured collective that will bring absolute unity and peace throughout the world. The mass destruction of traditional white communities is a necessary evil to achieve this great utopia.

    I think you are correct.

  58. Yeah, but according to a recent large study in the Lancet Uzbek TFR will take a long time to drop below replacement rate, by around 2080.

    In 2100: Uzb TFR 1,89 Russia 1,43

    Central Asia 139mil Russia 106mil

    Not to mention that younger population median age at equal TFR leads to higher birth rate in the first case.

  59. Beijing: A Chinese divorce court has ordered a husband to pay his wife more than $US7700 ($9680) in compensation for the housework she performed during five years of marriage, in a landmark decision that activists hope will lead to greater protections for women in China.

    Fun news from today. Got me thinking, does the laws on divorces have any non-negligible effect on marriage rates or anything else? In some countries a divorce can basically bankrupt you. Jeff Bezos might still be pretty rich but $40B is an expensive divorce.

  60. silviosilver says

    The key difference though is between a bit of immigration vs mass nation changing immigration. The majority of Slavs I have spoken too are fine with the former but the idea of inviting the whole world into their countries and becoming a minority in such a short space of time is simply an unattractive proposition.

    In the long run, that is a distinction without a difference. This generation will accept “just a few” and the next generation will accept “just a few” and so on, and before you know it, it’s no longer just a few.

    And of course with the passage of time and the substitution of cuckfaggot wishful thinking for hardheaded analysis – nothing simpler than to pour scorn on “purists” who warn of the long-term dangers – intermixture accelerates to the point where it becomes politically impossible to determine how much mixture is “too much” so the result is that everyone is accepted, so that even if, by some miracle, a mass movement against racial replacement occurred, it would almost certainly fail. And then once that agitation quells, the next generation of cucks once again introduces the idea of “just a few” immigrants….

    So, though it pains me to do so, I can only laugh at these slavs you claim to have spoken to, who consider themselves oh so much wiser than the western cucklings they’re comparing themselves to, because with their thinking, the end result for them is unlikely to be markedly different to the west’s dismal fate.

  61. being 50% richer than Uzbekistan is not a differential that is going to get you any Gastarbeiters

    Sure. Plus, the fact that Uzbeks would have to go through Russia (with higher salaries) in order to get to Ukraine pretty much guarantees that no Uzbeks would come to Ukraine.

  62. silviosilver says

    When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone.

    Lol, what’s Russian for “TNB”?

  63. Russia went through a round of reverse eugenics after the Revolution, when the smartest were killed or driven into exile. It can rebound this time, also. Although I am not sure that these religious types are necessarily dumb.

  64. The Big Red Scary says

    The Tajiks I have met were somewhat duskier, but still attractive. Much more European looking than Uzbeks. There was a very pretty and good-natured Tajik girl in the village where I used to live. Her parents arranged a marriage and packed her back off to Tajikistan, since they were afraid she’d get ruined in Russia.

  65. AlexanderGrozny says

    Do you have any evidence of that?

  66. The Tajiks I have met were somewhat duskier, but still attractive. Much more European looking than Uzbeks

    That’s because Tadjiks are basically Indo-European Persians, with some Central Asian admixture.

  67. Studies like that work with simple models and use very reserved assumptions. You’ll never see a “risky” prediction from any forecast like this. For example, Uruguay’s fertility rate dropped from close to 2.0 to 1.4 in 5 years. In a Lancet forecast the time frame of such a fall probably would’ve been 50 years or something.

  68. Hapalong Cassidy says

    The formerly Soviet “stans” have varying degrees of Oriental admixture. Based on what I’ve seen of the people from pictures I’d say that Mongoloid admixture, from most to least, is as follows:
    Kyrgyzstan
    Kazakhstan
    Turkmenistan
    Uzbekistan
    Tajikistan

  69. Not at all.

    It is the most pessimistic demographic study for the world i have ever seen actually. They also estimate a US population remaining the same and China dropping by half to 712 million.

  70. Yeah. The typically work with the assumption that fertility rate is going to slowly decrease.

  71. Well, that’s the study with the worst assumptions compared to anyone else. For example all the other studies i’m aware of predict a US population increase.

    Moreover, i’m more bullish on Central Asia than others because this is a heartland region (the Middle of Asia) and heartland regions generally have higher birth rate than coastal regions.

    For example if you look at the US, Canada, Australia, India, Southern America or Africa, it is the heartland regions that have generally higher birth rate than the coastal regions.

  72. Blinky Bill says
  73. Any pattern between Southern and Northern Slavs within Russia? Within a greater European geographic context, I’ve wondered if one group or other might be somehow better adjusted to modern lifestyles.

  74. Probably would be considered more dangerous on a geopolitical level as Kazakhstan shares a border with China, and the Chinese might then be tempted to help impose economic sanctions.

    I also wonder what it would have done to Russia’s space launch capability.

  75. IIRC one of the early Islamic merchants who met with pagan ancient Rus traders on the Itil river identified them as a Turkic tribe.

  76. Blinky Bill says

    Who is the Tajik and who is the Uzbek? Shall we ever truly know?

    https://i1.wp.com/www.gnxp.com/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Central_Asian_Buddhist_Monks.jpeg

    Neither!

    The comment below was made by Razib Kahn over a decade ago and to the best of my limited knowledge, remains true.

    The genetic and linguistic affinities of two dozen ethno-linguistic groups from the three Central Asian nations of Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan. This is what the Greeks referred to as Transoxiana, and the Persians as Turan. Originally inhabited by peoples with close cultural affinities with those of Persia, indeed, likely the root of the peoples of Persia, by the historical period Turan developed a distinctive identity as a frontier or march. It was in Turan where the Turk met the Iranian (a class which included non-Persian groups, such as the Sogdians), from the pre-Islamic Sassanians down to the present day. It is a region of the world which has a very ancient urban culture, cities such as Merv, as well as peoples that were only recently nomads, forcibly made sedentary by the Soviet regime.

    To add another twist to the picture many of the ethno-linguistic groups which we are familiar with today and which serve as the cores of the new Central Asian nations only came into being within the last few centuries, with a particular “push” from Russian Imperial and Soviet ethnologists who were tasked with fleshing out national identities with which the center could negotiate. A “Tajik” is after all simply part of the Persian-speaking residual population of Central Asia, spreading down into Afghanistan. The carving out of an independent Tajikistan out of the Central Asian landscape is as much a creation of the modern age as the state of Israel. The “Uzbek” identity was once simply that of the ruling caste of Transoxiana who came to power after the decline of the Timurids. Today it is an appellation which brackets the settled Turkic speaking peoples of Uzbekistan and beyond.

    Into this near Gordian knot of history and ideology walk the naive and well-meaning geneticists.

    Located in the Eurasian heartland, Central Asia has played a major role in both the early spread of modern humans out of Africa and the more recent settlements of differentiated populations across Eurasia. A detailed knowledge of the peopling in this vast region would therefore greatly improve our understanding of range expansions, colonizations and recurrent migrations, including the impact of the historical expansion of eastern nomadic groups that occurred in Central Asia. However, despite its presumable importance, little is known about the level and the distribution of genetic variation in this region. We genotyped 26 Indo-Iranian- and Turkic-speaking populations, belonging to six different ethnic groups, at 27 autosomal microsatellite loci. The analysis of genetic variation reveals that Central Asian diversity is mainly shaped by linguistic affiliation, with Turkic-speaking populations forming a cluster more closely related to East-Asian populations and Indo-Iranian speakers forming a cluster closer to Western Eurasians. The scattered position of Uzbeks across Turkic- and Indo-Iranian-speaking populations may reflect their origins from the union of different tribes. We propose that the complex genetic landscape of Central Asian populations results from the movements of eastern, Turkic-speaking groups during historical times, into a long-lasting group of settled populations, which may be represented nowadays by Tajiks and Turkmen. Contrary to what is generally thought, our results suggest that the recurrent expansions of eastern nomadic groups did not result in the complete replacement of local populations, but rather into partial admixture.

    In my initial comment on this paper in a link round-up I wondered what the authors were thinking making such a comment: anyone who knows Central Asians would see on their faces that the Turks did not completely replace the local populations. The image above is of an Uzbek man, who does not exhibit any visible “Mongolian” features. This is not the norm, but is not unheard of. Even populations which are presumed to have less Iranian admixture, such as the Kazakhs, exhibit a range of physical types. It would be one thing if this reference was an isolated peculiarity, but there are other comments within the paper which indicate to me that the research group’s familiarity with the non-genetic literature is cursory at best. They refer to Huns as having “brought the East-Asian anthropological phenotype to Central Asia.” There is no clear definite foundation for this assertion. Unfortunately historians do not have a clear idea what the ethno-linguistic character of the Huns was. By the time Roman observers encountered them the Hunnic horde seems to have been predominantly German, with a Iranian (Alan) secondary component, the Huns themselves being a small elite (Attila’s name itself may be Gothic). In light of subsequent eruptions into Europe of Turkic and Ugric nomads it is easy to slot the Huns into this exotic category, but the primary literature makes it clear that you can’t ascertain their ethnic character from the contemporary sources (the “White Huns” of Central and South Asia had no real connection to the Huns of Europe).

    Near the end of the paper they say something really peculiar: “The Westernized view of westward invasions usually emphasizes the extreme violence and cruelty of the hordes led by Attila the Hun (AD 406–453), or that from the Mongolian empire led by Genghis Khan. However, our results somehow challenge this view and rather suggest that these more recent expansions did not lead to the massacre and complete replacement of the locally settled populations….” It is true that European observers of the Mongol expansion did not have a sanguine attitude. But the idea that Mongols were genocidal exterminationists really comes to us via the Islamic historians, for whom the Mongol conquests were totally shocking and a literal world-turned-upside-down moment. The Mongol conquests did seem to result in a decline in population between Mesopotamia and Transoxiana. Whole cities in Central Asia were depopulated. There is an assumption that the Mongol conquests marks the turning point where Central Asia passed from being a predominantly Iranian world with a Turkic military elite (which was to be the nature of Iran proper until the 20th century) to a Turkic world with a large Persian minority. Though the military conquests of the Mongols were important punctuating events, I do not believe that scholars today would assume that they produced an ethnic shift in toto. On the contrary, the null hypothesis is generally against migrationism.

    There’s a clear separation linguistically between Iranian speaking and Turkic speaking groups in Central Asia. Some of the Turkic groups are close to Iranian groups, closer than to other Turkic groups, but still the two broad sets have a coherent identity. Undergirding the linguistic variation is classical geographic variation. The eastern Turkic groups seem the least impacted by the Iranian substrate which was dominant before the arrival of Turks, while the Turcoman group sampled from western Uzbekistan seems to have been the most genetically “Iranized.” In a world wide context the central position of Central Asians is not surprising. Interestingly the Iranian groups of Central Asia seem to overlap rather well with the Indo-Iranian groups from the HGDP data set. In contrast, the Turkic groups are distributed along a linear axis from East Asians to the Iranian cluster. This is the same pattern evident among African Americans as individuals. It’s a two-way admixture, with different dosage degrees by population as a function of history and geography (I presume you’d see the same pattern if it was broken down on individuals with a SNP-chip).

    Yagnobis of Dushanbe. I happen to know offhand that the Yagnobis are reputed to be descendants of the Sogdians, having preserved their language and Zoroastrian religion relatively late in history before switching to Tajik and Islam. Like many ethno-linguistic relics these people preserved their independent identity after the Arab conquest, which saw the decline of Sogdian influence on the Silk Road, by taking refuge in isolated regions. It is no surprise then that this group shows the least East Asian admixture of all the Iranian samples, as they were isolated from many of the social and historical processes which were operative in Transoxiana after the conquest by the Arabs, and the later pushing in of the zone of Turkic hegemony after the fall of the Samanids.

    These admixture estimates definitely put the spotlight on the role of Central Asia as a nexus of sorts. In the archaeology and history it is clear that Central Asia has been affected by peoples of European, South Asian, Middle Eastern, and East Asian origin. Central Asia itself has been the mother of empires, famously the seat of Timur, but also the original base of what later became the Abbasid dynasty. At one point the Caliphate was split between western and eastern factions and there was a possibility that the capital would be relocated from Baghdad to the Central Asian city of Merv! I do not believe that the Arabs had a strong genetic impact, nor was there a large South Asian migration in recent periods into Central Asia. So the admixture estimates adduced for these groups may be due to the natural cline in allele frequencies which are found in different peripheral Eurasian populations. Frequencies which are naturally intermediate in Central Asia. The main caveat is that it is probable that local conditions will vary a great deal. In contrast we have strong reason to suspect that the East Asian component arrived relatively recently with the Turks, and we see that its aspect is most evident among the groups which were nomadic within living memory, the Kazakhs and Kyrgyz. These two ethnicities, which are really compounds of several tribes or “hordes,” were only marginally integrated into sedentary Islamic society where the Tajik element would be prominent (shamanism among many of these tribes only disappeared under the influence of the Islamic missionaries sponsored by Russian Empire). I think this pattern is reinforced by what we saw in the correspondence analysis, where the Turkic groups exhibited a linear distribution toward East Asia, while the Iranian ones were placed where you’d expect them geographically. Finally, I want to note that Dienekes observes that using South Asians as a Central Asian population source is strange since South Asia is more appropriately thought of as a demographic sink for Turan. True, but the HGDP populations are strongly biased toward groups with relatively little indigenous South Asian ancestry, with the Sindhi being the only Indo-Aryan speakers within the set. So I think that objection is mitigated by these factors. Rather, the Iranian-speaking Pakistani groups serve as proxies for the original Central Asian Iranian substrate, from which both they and the Tajiks presumably derive.

    Moving back to the Turk vs. Iranian distinction, the authors note that the Turkic groups exhibit a strong degree of genetic homogeneity on the Y chromosomal lineages. This points to the possible manner in which the East Asian genetic element spread in Central Asia, not necessarily just through population displacement, but also through polygamy and the high reproductive fitness of particular “super-male” lineages. The children of elite Turkic men who took Iranian wives presumably adopted the culture of their fathers, including the linguistic identity. This may have been particularly easy in Central Asia because they did not have to repudiate their maternal heritage in totality, as Persian culture still had great status and currency. If we partition the ancestry into “East Eurasian” and “West Eurasian” components the Turkic groups have much more of the latter than the Iranian ones have of the former. That stands to reason as the Turks were newcomers, and an elite which the locals would wish to assimilate to if they had the opportunity. In contrast, the shift from Turk to Iranian may have been rarer, and a switch which individuals would wish to avoid since the latter did not have the same level of temporal power. Over ~1,500 years gene flow does occur between the groups, and even the Yagnobis have appreciable East Asian ancestry. Eventually the linguistic differences would probably be dwarfed by the geographical ones, but currently we’re taking a snapshot of a “transient.”

    It’s complicated. And one has to be very careful about using terms like “Turk” in a localized context, vs. a more international one. The Turks of Turkey are overwhelming derived from the same source populations as their Balkan (because of Rumelian Turks), Iranian, and Armenian, neighbors. The decline in East Asian fraction is evident even in this sample, as the Turcomans from western Uzbekistan have the least eastern ancestry of any of the groups.

  77. The Indo-European looking monk is probably a Kushan and the Oriental looking monk is probably a Han Chinese.

    The whole origin of the Turkic populations and the acculturation of the ancient Indo-Iranian peoples of Turan to the adoption of Turkic languages is a very interesting topic. Especially when one takes note of impact the Xiongnu and Spenta Huna have probably had on the region. That is why I have linked a few links above as a food for thought in my comment above.

  78. Karlin is in error I think. The lower fertility in Uzbekistan will only start to effect Russia after the next 25-30 years.

    For the 25-30 years from now until then , the very high fertility of the last 15 years there will have resulted in abundance of working age Uzbeks coming further to all parts of Russia ,as there is simply not enough jobs created in Uzbekistan for the abundance of young working age population.

    Karimov was a very bad strategic long-term thinker compared to Aliyev and Nazarbayev

  79. Indifferent contrarian says

    Tajik genetics is more aryan than the Greek one or at least roughly the same.

    Just saying.

    You can check it out for yourself if you have the time – I mean the haplogroup studies.
    Compared to Indians, they’re definitely white, except for a few upper caste groups, but even then no, because even upper caste Indians are maternally of the same stock as their lower-caste brethren.

    BUT, psssst, Aryan invasion did not happen. Pre-aryan Indians just voluntarily gave this group of men their women…

  80. Maybe Russia should encourage Russians in the Baltic states and Kazakhstan to emigrate en masse to Russia, since they are clearly not wanted there. And Moscow is clearly not willing to do anything to better their welfare in their host countries.

  81. I strongly have to disagree here. Human history has always been the case of “just a few”, right back when the first tribes started to comingle. Look at the gene pools of people and it is made up of tribes that have simply vanished into time and space. It is evolution and a normal part of Human existence. The main group gets some new DNA and continues onwards.

    Russia is not unique in this. As the saying goes, “scratch a Russian, find a Tartar.” This essentially will be the same case with the Central Asians down the road as it was for the Mongols and Tartars before them. Basically nothing to see here.

    The other option is colonisation where one group ultimately wipes out the other through mass mixing and large scale settlement population. The former would be India and the latter America.

    If I was to make a statement, I would say the West is more the case of the India scenario. Mass groups of people moving in that will submerge the host into a new population.

    But in saying that, times have changed now. Life is more urban and less about tribes. So I suspect the new migrants eventually coalescing to low birth rates in the cities with Karlins breeder theory taking root in the rural areas (which is mainly staying in traditional demographic territory i.e white)

  82. I don’t know about Kazakhstan, but it has happened in the Baltics. Baltics lost about 2 million people since USSR dissolution which is a lot for them as they only have 6 million in between the three of them. A lot of people left for Russia.

  83. Number of “titled” chess players in selected countries (one of my measures of the sensibility and temperament of a country. Not adjusted for population.)

    Russia – Rank 1 in world – 2340
    USA 3. – 671
    Ukraine – 4. – 510
    Kazakhstan – 26. – 141
    Norway – 34. – 116

    I play a few dozen online fast games every day against average (not titled) players. My subjective feeling is that Russian players tend to play what chess players call “quiet moves” more so than do Americans, who are more adventuresome and reckless.

  84. Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting?

    The Romans were a great people – but didn’t the Germanic admixture plus the Near Eastern mixture make the northern Italians something new and exciting? Let’s be honest, the Romans could never have produced the art of the Rennaissance. Like today’s Chinese, they were great engineers and builders of public works, not artists or thinkers.

    European nations are all wonderful and great – but hasn’t the old civilization exhausted itself?

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    Why is this to be so feared? Moreover, isn’t this the usual pattern for Europe? Breakdown followed by reconstitution along new-but-different lines with a big mixture of new races?

    Of course, for a true new race to emerge in Europe at some point immigration would have to stop, and a great process of assimilation take place.

    The Enlightenment elite that rules the West aims for the creation of a uniform type of man that lives his life according to reason. He has no innate characteristics and no inherited qualities. He is the epitome of John Locke’s Blank Slate and can be shaped entirely by reason.

    This is a necessary corollary to the Enlightenment belief that mankind can be infinitely shaped by reason – innate characteristics, inherited dispositions, are an intolerable restrictions on this ambitious project.

    For mankind to take charge of his destiny, innate characteristics cannot exist. He must be a blank slate up in which reason can write.

    But such an ambition is pure hubris – mankind cannot take charge of his destiny through reason and is limited by inherited characteristics. This project is bound to fail.

    Since the creation of a uniform man with no inherited disposition, the central project of the Western elites, is bound to fail, what will happen instead is the emergence of a new race with a new particular character.

    In Israel something like this is already taking place. There is massive mixing between the various Jewish populations, and the main divide between European Jews and Oriental Jews is slowly eroding. What is emerging is a new Israeli race – and I like what I see.

  85. silviosilver says

    Europeans exist in 2021 because for thousands of years they bred almost exclusively with other Europeans. Infusions into that genepool over that time period were indeed “just a few.”

    The infusions that have recently entered it, and which will in due course enter it, cannot at all be characterized as “just a few.” Indeed, they will be quite sufficient to submerge Europeans, leaving little remaining of the European familiar to us today, and in the fullness of time will snuff him out completely.

    Could eastern Europe and Russia evade this fate? They certainly could, though that would require facing up to racial reality – the actual conditions required to sustain racial existence – and not sedating themselves with fanciful happy talk that all will be well because it’s “just a few.”

  86. Servant of Gla'aki says

    The plague has been endemic to the Sierra Nevada of Northern California for 150 years. My parents contracted it in the 1970s, while we were camping. It is quite rare, however.

  87. silviosilver says

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    Is Brazil really all that exciting?

    Why is this to be so feared?

    Because it’s better to racially live on than to racially die off?

    Moreover, isn’t this the usual pattern for Europe?

    Well, if you’re a mendacious jew piece of shit, then it’s very easy to make mountains out of molehills and pretend that the kinds of Europeans that exist today are the result of massive interracial mixture that’s happened time and again throughout European history, but then you shouldn’t be surprised when people dismiss you as just a mendacious jew piece of shit.

  88. Everywhere there are rich countries, immigrants try to flood them, and where there are poor countries, emigrants flow out.

    In Russia, the government is extremely pro-immigrant on a policy level (for example, creating the world’s largest open border zone to try to include third world countries of Central Asia), but only people from postsoviet countries will ever immigrate to Russia in significant numbers, as life is difficult enough for local people, and it only makes sense to immigrate to Russia within a postsoviet cultural sphere.

    On the other hand, in countries where life is comparatively easy for ordinary people like Australia, Canada or Sweden, millions of immigrant are constantly trying to flood in, and to some extent the government’s policy only somewhat modifies the situation (e.g. pro-immigrant attitudes in Sweden and Canada vs more anti-immigrant attitudes in Australia).

    Russia will not be flooded with immigrants from outside of the postsoviet countries, because the life is insufficiently easy for most immigrants that arrive without assets or connections. That is, Russia is likely going to remain a majority Russian population. Russia will be “safe” from this kind of immigration from outside the postsoviet space, that countries like Australia are flooded with.

    And if third world countries experience sufficient economic growth (as we see now in China), this could be permanent. It’s not impossible that China’s economy will eventually bypass Russia, and that postsoviet workers will immigrate to China.

    • For an example:

    Spain is flooded with Chinese immigrants (whether illegal or legal), while Ukraine is not flooded with Chinese immigrants.

    When you look at the income graph, there is the explanation for why Chinese immigrate to Spain, but do not immigrate to Ukraine. (More likely, that Ukrainians will immigrate to China, than Chinese immigrating to Ukraine nowadays).

    India’s economy is also growing, although far less rapidly than in China. It’s possible that India will have a higher income level than Ukraine, in some measures within this decade. Of course, Ukraine is a far more developed country than India in other ways (not measurable in income), but Indians who go to Ukraine to study, will not stay in Ukraine after they complete their education, as there is hardly a sufficient income gap.

    https://i.imgur.com/bQkDyw6.jpg

  89. Is Brazil really all that exciting

    ?

    That’s a fair point. Brazil is one option. But post Roman collapse Northern Italy is another.

    I agree that you have a legitimate concern in getting the proportions right.

    I have always said I am glad Ethiopians immigrated to Israel, but would not want them to overwhelm the existing ethnic balance.

    But a 70% White majority receiving a 30% introgression? That likely won’t end in Brazil.

    Because it’s better to racially live on than to racially die off

    But who is dying off? Some parts of the White race are being modified by the infusion of new blood. But the old phenotypes will remain. It’s still possible to find classic Roman types in Italy.

    Among Hasidic Jews, you will find quite a few blond and blue eyes kids.

    But the generic material of the White race us not dying off in the scenario I outlined – I mentioned outright extermination or replacement would be a legitimate concern.

    Well, if you’re a mendacious jew piece of shit, then it’s very easy to make mountains out of molehills and pretend that the kinds of Europeans that exist today are the result of massive interracial mixture that’s happened time and again throughout European history, but then you shouldn’t be surprised when people dismiss you as just a mendacious jew piece of shit.

    Being called a mendavious Jew piece of shit on this site neither bothers me no surprises me – it’s one of the nicer things I’ve been called 🙂

    I am aware of what site I am on lol.

    Certainly, the pattern I described isn’t characteristic of all Europe. Scandinavia doesn’t seem to have ever received any foreign racial mixture for instance.

    But Rome towards the end of the Empire for instance was majority Near Eastern origin, and the Germanic invasions obviously.

    Spain is an amalgamation of Gothic, Moorish, Jewish, and Punic elements. Quite heterogeneous I’d say.

    But the main question is – why fear the creation of a new race? At least one must acknowledge it can create new possibilities. A new and exciting civilization.

    Maybe not. It may lead to a worse civilization. That’s also a possibility.

    Ashkenazi Jews for instance are a new race created by mixture – they are unlike the ancient Hebrew race yet descended from them. They exhibited some extraordinary new qualities not found in their ancestors, at least not to the same degree.

    Oh well, I guess for some people absolute purity of race is a really big deal, and they don’t see the world as a dynamic system like I do, so I shouldn’t be surprised at your hostile response 🙂

    I think race and ethnicity are a concern, but I’m not a purist about it. Plus I see change and development – and later collapse – as essential processes of nature, so I’m not saddened by the death of the old and am excited by the emergence of the new.

    The old Ashkenazi Sabras were a tough and remarkable bunch of adventurers, but I do not lament their mixing into a new race.

    To each his own I suppose.

  90. a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    According to one study, the DNA of Dominicans is 52.15% European, 39.57% Sub-Saharan African, and 8.28% Native American. That seems to not be too far from what you envision.

    Though curiously, Trujillo’s generous offer of, I believe it was, >100,000 free visas to any unmarried Jews in WW2-era Europe went almost entirely unfulfilled. And the handful of Jews who did take it up mostly used DR as a stepping stone, though there might be a half a dozen or so families that remain, doing well in local businesses.

  91. It’s not impossible that China’s economy will eventually bypass Russia, and that postsoviet workers will immigrate to China.

    Eventually? In nominal GDP per capita China and Russia is about equal. Of course Russian currency is volatile and undervalued and in PPP Russia is still ahead 60%. But the richer regions of China should already be more than rich enough for poor Central Asians to want to immigrate to. But the fact is that China simply hasn’t opened up for large scale worker immigration so it isn’t happening.

    I also suspect that if China starts taking in millions of immigrants they’ll start with Southeast Asia.

  92. Kent Nationalist says

    A world of brown, black-haired, 90 IQ people with no religion or ethnic identity but who all love Avengers Return XXVII sounds thrilling

  93. That does not sound promising, I’ll grant you.

    The lesson might be that too high a percentage of sub-saharan Black – at least at the present time – is not optimum.

    Obviously, not all mixtures are a hit. Italy went on to further and new glories. Greece became a backwater.

    I can see Blacks adding a useful element in the right proportion – an easy going joie de vivre sorely lacking in dour northerners, perhaps. But clearly, at the moment too a high a Black proportion isn’t optimum.

    But the larger point is that it is an interesting possibility to consider – the main established races are familiar and boring. Could it not be exciting to have something new?

    And btw, please not I include my own people here. Ashkenazi Jews in Israel are mixing at a high rate with brown Jews. What is coming out of that is to me interesting so far.

    Sure, nature makes many experiments, and only some are a success – but racial experiments have been going on for all of hunan history.

    The idea of preserving absolutely pure races means making no more experiments. The results of all past experiments are finally set in stone. Does nature work this way?

    I will grant you that race and ethnicity should be a core concern, but I think being a purist about it is misguided. And I think Europe already has enough immigrants and no more are necessary. I’m just exploring an interesting possibility.

    If Europe shut the door now and a process of racial assimilation began, would this be one of natures successful experiments or would Europe become a sleepy backwater like Greece, her glories behind her?

    Realistically, much of Europe was in some level of ethnic ferment until about 1500, some more some less- at that time, nations congealed and the results of past mixing began to show what they could do. For about 500 years, there was little to no ethnic ferment within Europe.

    Now there is a period of breakdown and ferment again. It could go too far and end in disaster – or it could end in exciting new possibilities.

    I will also accept that Europe never integrated a substantial Black popukation, except for the Portuguese as far as I understand. And that seems to have been a limited success – a great age of exploration and Empire briefly but not much else.

  94. …the sheer ignorance of lumping together all Indians into one category

    Liberals call it virtuous judgment and do it freely to white, Christian, normal-gender males, and in particular to eastern Europeans – Russians being lumped with abandon. Indians are masters and pioneers in this ‘lump the whitey’ sport. Maybe they are trying to please, or maybe they simply hate white people. And more white a group is, more they hate. Your crocodile tears are wasted.

    Mass migration from South Asia is in a class of its own: the numbers potentially involved dwarf everything except sub-Saharan Africans. Their cliquishness and insane self-promotion attacks the core of Western societies – as you pointed out, they manage to steal more, capture more cushy spots, and in general suck more out of the West than almost any other migrant group. Yes, they tend not to be violent and are in general law-abiding – still their impact on natives’ living standards and opportunities ( for the younger people) has been more devastating.

    But you gave yourself away with the ‘casual racism‘ phrase. Right, we are all ‘racist’ if we don’t submit and give up. I get that is what the likes of you think. But do you have any other thoughts? And it’s good to know that plague is under control under India, are other diseases?

  95. Blinky Bill says
  96. Btw, I don’t have a problem with anyone being a racial purist.

    Humans have to divide into groups on some basis, and as German Reader pointed out on the other thread, same race groups dividing on lines other than race have historically caused the most bloodshed and suffering.

    So dividing on the basis of race is not especially bad.

    If race seems the most relevant division to you, I would not object to you marking off your group on the basis of race.

    For me, race and ethnicity are of concern, but I’m much more flexible about it obviously.

    I’m just pointing out an interesting possibility that never gets mentioned – the creation of a new race or ethnicity. Admittedly this could be a disaster, or it could be very cool.

  97. Radicalcenter says

    When the USSR disbanded, Russia should have kept Estonia, Latvia, and northernmost Kazakhstan. Gonna be hard to get them back and hold them now, especially if the number of ethnic Russians continues to decline.

  98. Radicalcenter says

    As an American, I volunteer to give them all our Indians, for free.

  99. Daniel Chieh says

    I should like to note that our kind host himself is part Caucasian and being a transhumanist, given the completed dreams of transcendent biosingularity would not resemble humans in our present day much at all.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/short-history-of-3rd-millennium/

    As such, arguments for purity in this blog always amuse me.

  100. Radicalcenter says

    Prominent Indian and part-Indian people in US politics and government don’t help the case for this supposed “social and economic benefit” of Indians to the host country. Warmongering Republican liar Nikki Haley (former governor of South Carolina, to the discredit of South Carolinians); corrupt, vicious, and fraudulently selected Democrat VP Kamala Harris; and Republican grifter Bobby Jindal (former governor of Louisiana) are examples that come to mind.

    And we didn’t have any pressing need for more cold-hearted fraudulent-billing doctors, surly motel owners, tax-evading cash convenience store owners, or overrated programmers and consultants who take jobs from native IT professionals and lower wages while often doing a mediocre job.

    E.g., Indian doctor in NJ: https://www.sagar.com/desi-doctor-indicted-for-billing-fraud.html#:~:text=New%20Jersey%20Indian%20Doctor%20Gautam%20Sehgal%20Indicted%20for,himself%20or%20that%20were%20not%20performed%20at%20all.

    Indian doctor in Ohio: https://www.leagle.com/decision/20051249355fsupp2d89411161

    Indian doctor in Florida: https://fraudscrookscriminals.com/2019/02/04/florida-indian-american-pain-doctor-sentenced-in-medicare-fraud-case/

    Indian doctor in New York: https://www.newsindiatimes.com/indian-american-doctor-gets-18-month-prison-sentence-in-30-million-healthcare-fraud-in-n-y/

    Russia shouldn’t make the same mistake that the USA has made in admitting this nepotistic, disloyal Fifth Column from India. Russia simply should not risk permanent settlement and citizenship for anyone other than Russian-speaking, Christian European and Eurasian people. Tourist visas, education visas, business visas, absolutely, and a warm welcome for well-behaved useful temporary visitors from India like anywhere else.

  101. Blinky Bill says

    The Philippines alone has 110 million people compared to 75 million for the whole of Central Asia combined. Muslim/Central Asian immigration will never be allowed into Xinjiang/Western China, for reasons obvious to all. How close to Eastern China is the Philippines, versus how close it’s to Uzbek population centers. The logic is clear. The Chinese worry about Central Asian Islamists, not the Moro Islamic Liberation Front.

    Who here has dealt with both Tajik/Uzbek and also Pinoy service workers?

    Anyone care to make a comparison?

  102. Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting? – No. Richard Nikolaus Eijiro, Count of Coudenhove-Kalergi was before you.

    The man of the future will be a mongrel. Today’s races and classes will disappear owing to the disappearing of space, time, and prejudice.

    The Eurasian-Negroid race of the future, similar in its outward appearance to the Ancient Egyptians, will replace the diversity of peoples with a diversity of individuals.

    Russian Bolshevism constitutes a decisive step towards this purpose where a small group of communist spiritual aristocrats govern the country and consciously break with the plutocratic [plutocratic = rule or power through wealth] democratism which nowadays controls the rest of the world.

    The fight between Capitalism and Communism over the inheritance of the beseeched blood aristocracy is a fratricidal war of the victorious brain aristocracy, a fight between individualistic and socialist, egoist and altruist, heathen and Christian spirit.

    The general staff of both parties is recruited from Europe’s spiritual leader race [Führerrasse] the Jews.

    The main representatives of the corrupt as well as the upright brain aristocracy: of capitalism, journalism and the literate are Jews.

    The superiority of their spirit predestines them to become a main factor of the future nobility.

    Therefore a gracious Providence provided Europe with a new race of nobility through spiritual grace.

    With these two attempts to redemption of a spiritual-moral origin, Jewry has bestowed a greater gift on to the disinherited masses of Europe than any other people.

    How modern Jewry also surpasses all other peoples in percentage of important men: scarcely one century after its liberation this small people stands with Einstein at the frontrunner of modern science; with Mahler as the frontrunner of modern music, with Bergson as a frontrunner of modern philosophy, with Trotsky as the frontrunner of modern politics

    Not only Jewry will move in the direction of the Western aristocratic ideals – also the Western aristocratic ideal will experience a transformation which will meet Jewry half way.

  103. Blinky Bill says
  104. Ok, but this is still the vision of one uniform type. The flattening out of man.

    I’m suggesting the emergence of a new race or ethnic grouo, and even within that group a plethora of types, as we see in every genuinely organic nation.

    As for Jews, they are having their moment in the sun, like many other people’s before them. I am not sure how much you can extrapolate about this into the future -” leading races” exchange places with startling regularity.

    The real secret to Jewish power is ambition. It just so happens that Jews came into the scene just as European civilization was reaching the final stages of its development and entering a deflationary phase.

    Probably, Jews gave the West another century or so of preeminence and wealth.

    But ambition has a way of burning itself out. Jews won’t be spared the same collapse in ambition that happened to Europeans.

    Look at me. Despite the best efforts of friends and family, I simply am not ambitious. My ideal is to be a dreamy Taoist wandering the forests. I am still an outlier – but for how long?

    That being said, as Nietzsche said, the Jew would probably be a useful element in the emergence of the new European race – but only one element.

    Now that I think of it, Nietzsche also discussed the emergence of a new European race. He was against the nationalism of his time.

  105. I’m just pointing out an interesting possibility that never gets mentioned – the creation of a new race or ethnicity.

    I don’t particularly desire it – probably mostly because artistic cultural formation in modern times seems to be non-exisant – but I think probably there will be a new ethnogenesis within Europe among Europeans.

    Probably not a full one – not a complete abolition of subtypes, but (mixed, though racially pure) people might increasingly identify as Scandinavians, Germanics, Celts, Slavs, NW Europeans, Northern Europeans, or Meds. I’m not sure these people will truly have their own culture, but perhaps it still counts as new ethnicities, if the numbers reach a certain threshold. In theory, it would be aided by the possible adoption of passports made using genetic distance (which I advocate for – Russians who want eventual reunification with Ukraine, please, take note.)

    Though, I’m not sure that the formation of new races is even technically possible. That is, beyond where it is already in an advanced process, like parts of Latin America. In a technical sense, it takes probably thousands of years. The DNA needs to be broken down into small pieces and gradients destroyed. I think this would require both forced miscegenation and a full societal collapse that brought back a strong element of natural selection.

  106. LOL. I thought it was funny when they tried to pass Vin Diesel off as Italian (another movie), but, then again, I am not Italian and am angered by the numerous attempts of Hollywood to pass Italians and half-Italians off as the dark-haired phenotype of Irish people. (I suspect Jewish collusion.)

  107. Blinky Bill says
  108. Who initiated the divorce, and why? Also what portion of the guy’s wealth this represented?

  109. Kent Nationalist says

    Though the U.S. census says Hispanics comprise 15% of the population, the group made up a whopping 46% of the “Fast”audience, according to exit polling data conducted by the studio.

    Other studios have found similar success with a diverse group of pictures, including Disney’s “Beverly Hills Chihuahua,”20th Century Fox’s “Alvin and the Chipmunks”, Paramount’s “Transformers,” Lionsgate’s Jackie Chan-Jet Li fantasy actioner “The Forbidden Kingdom” and U’s “The Incredible Hulk.”

    https://hispanic-marketing.com/fast-furious-taps-into-hispanic-audiences/

  110. Kent Nationalist says

    Liking Chinese immigration I understand (although disagree with), because the girls can be hot, but when you start praising Indian immigration, I know that your brain has been fried by reading The Economist too much

  111. Right, more like the formation of new ethno-cultural groups. Races really take a long time.

    But think of the way the Spanish were formed out of the Goths, Moors, Jews, Carthaginian, and local Basque type people – probably a bit of Latin Roman, and slaves from across the empire, as well.

    Yet you still find pure Gothic and pure Moorish types in Spain also.

    For that to happen, you need immigration to stop. And you need a unifying idea. And time. Whether it ends up being desirable, I suppose depends on what the fusion produces.

  112. Unfair to compare Japan to the other white countries. Most of them have alot more foreign workers by proportion or tourists than Japan does. The majority of the countries that send workers and/or tourists to Japan, are in that region of the world and had early dated, reciprocally tough air travel arrangements because of the pandemic ( or always have prohibitively tough quarantine regulations like Australia)

    In Russia we have probably a million plus each of Gruzians, Moldovans, Ukrainians, Uzbeks, Armenians, Azeris, alot of Tajiks, probably a million+ from the North Caucasus who live outside that region (and who are not exactly renowned for social distancing) – in addition to that we have many of those countries,particularly from Central Asia, effectively locking in their citizens in Russia when the pandemic started.

    We have obviously performed the best of any country on the planet. Proportionately less deaths from coronavirus than all the other important white countries despite these masses of visitors and the very large outbound foreign tourism we do….with an economic performance much less worse than most other countries ( despite Oil price being low and gas demand from Europe being low for over half the year)

    “Excess deaths” are just foreign retard media disinformation. There was an increase in 2014 that wasn’t symptomatic of anything, other countries aren’t specific if theirs are deaths in hospital or total deaths.
    just like we are in period of low birth rates from demographic collapse in 1990s -we should be in period of higher deaths rates now from post-war population increase, equalisation of men:women demographic during this period and it overlapping with current male life expectancy.
    Also we have very high testing rate and well provided for coronavirus bed capacity in hospitals compared to most other countries and the most obvious financial incentives for medics and hospitals to inflate coronavirus numbers because increased pay is very appealing.
    The only thing possibly could be Russians just wanting to shake-off this virus and self-treat…….but I don’t think this has happened for these “excess deaths”

    In summary – uniformal pattern of other white countries excess death pattern being changed by marge numbers last year indicates something serious.for Russia it doesn’t because of the various demographic issues .

  113. Belarusian Dude says

    I mostly agree, however:

    Is this a big issue? I suppose if you’re trying to maximize for “white” ethnic purity, I suppose it is. Russia will become marginally more “Asiatic” and svidomy can crow about it. On the other hand, salaries in Ukraine are not much higher than in Uzbekistan, so I don’t know how much of an “achievement” Ukraine remaining 99% white is. So far as daily life is concerned, I don’t see there being a big difference. Central Asians are, in socio-demographic terms, much like Latinos in the US – lower IQ and more blue-collar than the natives, but much less of a criminological or ethnic nepotism problem than Caucasians. Georgians constitute an outright majority of the so-called “Russian” mafia authorities, i.e. vory v zakone, whereas Uzbeks are – if anything – underrepresented.

    Reads like a cope. Isn’t this exactly what America, France, Sweden and other gay nations say when Russians point out their large amount of non whites? To apply the same argument that some variance in “wealth trumps multicultural friendos” to Ukraine is silly

  114. The Alarmist says

    Is Moscow really Russia?

    https://youtu.be/gU_I-k-Gzbc

    The ending might surprise you.

  115. Hyperborean says

    Since this has, not surprisingly, devolved into quite the charivari, I will provide a contribution of my own to the sounds of the banging pots and pans, borrowed as it may be:

    It has been well observed that in those days ‘the outside world did not overly occupy the Jewish mind’. Indeed, the elaborate codification of the practices of orthodoxy that constituted the Jewish religion in the compendia of the time, notably the Shulchan Aruch reinforced segregation, and the traditional form of Jewish intellectual activity, the homiletic exposition of the Bible and the Talmud and their application to the contingencies of Jewish life, left little scope for anything else. What is more, rabbinical authority banned philosophy, science and other branches of knowledge of non-Jewish origin, including, in darkest Volhynia, even foreign languages. The gap between the intellectual worlds is best indicated by the fact that the (rare) pioneers of emancipation among Eastern Jewry felt they needed to translate into Hebrew works evidently available to any educated person in the gentile print culture, such as Euclid and works on trigonometry as well as books on geography and ethnography.

    The contrast between the situation before and after the era of emancipation is startling. After many centuries during which the intellectual and cultural history of the world, let alone its political
    history, could be written with little reference to the contribution of any Jews acceptable as such to the orthodox, other than perhaps,
    Maimonides, we almost immediately enter the modern era when Jewish names are disproportionately represented in it. It is as though the lid had been removed from a pressure cooker of talents.


    However, of all the emancipatory languages, German was by far the most crucial, for two reasons. Throughout half of Europe – from Berlin as far as the depths of Greater Russia, from Scandinavia to the Adriatic, and into the remotest Balkans – the road from backwardness to progress, from provincialism to the wider world, was paved with German letters. We tend to forget that this was once so. German was the gateway to modernity. On the occasion of the centenary of the birth of Schiller, the poet who was the classical voice of moral and political freedom for the common readers of German in the nineteenth century, Karl Emil Franzos, wrote a story, ‘Schiller in Barnow’, that illustrates this wonderfully well. In this story a small, ill-printed volume of Schiller’s poems becomes the medium through which a Dominican monk, a young Ruthenian village schoolmaster and a poor Jewish boy from a shtetl in what the author bitterly calls ‘Demi-Asia’ (‘Halb-Asien’) find the liberation offered by the nineteenth-century version of education and modern culture. The story culminates in the reading of the ‘Ode to Joy’. In the darkest East, Schiller was even translated into Hebrew. This emancipatory role of German explains why the city fathers of the most Jewish centre in Galicia, the town of Brody, which was 76 per cent Jewish, insisted that German had to be the language of instruction in their schools. In 1880 they even fought and won their case in the imperial court in Vienna on the grounds, patently implausible, that this was a Landesübliche, a language (of common use) in Galicia.

    […]

    The division between non-assimilated, Yiddish-speaking Ostjuden and assimilated Westjuden thus became, and remained, fundamental until both perished in the same holocaust. Though no doubt familiar in educated conversation, this division seems first to have been formally made in the Bukowina from the 1870s, where a proud, extraordinarily distinguished and educated middle class encountered the first stirrings (by the doubters of Germanisation) towards giving Jews a national status through their own national language Yiddish. For emancipated Jews in Mitteleuropa, ‘Ostjuden’ defined what they were not, and did not want to be: people so visibly different as almost to constitute a different species.


    Since there is very little scope for national and cultural coloration in the modern natural sciences, the same situation could not be the case in these fields, which became increasingly remote from common sense as well as incomprehensible to the layman in the twentieth century. The contribution of Jews in this area increased dramatically after 1914, as the record of the relevant Nobel prizes demonstrates. However, only the ideologies of the radical right could link the two as ‘Jewish science’.

    The social and human sciences offered greater scope; indeed, for obvious reasons, the nature, structure and transformations of society in an era of radical historical change attracted emancipated Jews disproportionately almost from the beginning, both in practice and in theory starting with the Saint Simonians and Marx.

    This fits in with that understandable Jewish proclivity to support movements for revolutionary global transformation, which is so striking in the epoch of the Marx-inspired socialist and communist movements. Indeed, one might say that the western Jews of the early nineteenth century received emancipation from an ideology not associated with them, while the eastern Ashkenazim largely emancipated themselves through a universalist revolutionary ideology that was closely associated with them.

    This is true even of the original Zionism, so deeply penetrated by Marxism, that actually built the original state of Israel. Correspondingly, in the twentieth century, certain fields developed (such as, in certain regions of Europe, sociology and, in particular, psychoanalysis) that sometimes seemed as disproportionately populated by Jews as, say, the international club of violin virtuosos. But what characterised these sciences, like all the others to which Jews contributed so signally, was not genetic association, but lack of fixity, and therefore innovation.

    It has been rightly said that, in Britain,‘the greatest impact of the exiles [from central Europe] was probably in the newer, more cross-disciplinary fields (art history, psychology, sociology, criminology, nuclear physics, biochemistry), and the most rapidly changing professions (film, photography, architecture, broadcasting) rather than in those long established’. Einstein has become the best-known face of twenteth-century science not because he was a Jew, but because he could become the icon of a science in revolution in a century of constant intellectual upheaval.

  116. Marshal Marlow says

    I get the sense that these beautiful people are on the verge of extinction.

  117. Can you imagine, there was a time when much of Central Asia was populated by people like those.

  118. I did not watch the video, but as a born and raised Moscovite I say that Moscow is not really Russia anymore. Not since at least the fall of Communism. That’s of course just my personal opinion.

    Moscow – the Old Capital – was certainly a deeply Russian city prior to the Revolution. That was the difference between Moscow and Piter then: Moscow was Russian, Piter was European.

    Today when you walk in the old streets of Zamoskvoretchie you still feel that Russian spirit. Unfortunately it is getting diluted every day. In the last 20 years Moscow has lost around 200 historical buildings.

    The 17th century neighborhood around the church where I was baptized, was to be nearly completely bulldozed and built over with elite condo towers that would have surrendered and hidden the church. The parishers, the priest and people (politicaally both left and right wing) who manifested against the demolition of historical buildings clashed with security agents hired by the construction company.

    https://youtu.be/DdXwwgm0PlY

    Finally a compromise has been found: the condos were built, but their height was lowered and some buildings around the church were preserved.

    That’s a video below showing Moscow and some pictures of the church and the neighborhood I am writing about: Kadashi in Zamoskvoretchie. It’s a 15 min walk from the Tretiakov Gallery. That’s one of the places where the Russian spirit of Moscow can still be felt.

    https://youtu.be/j_4JGgO3aAo

    The small streets between Arbat and the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, not far from the Pushkinskyi Museum are also a place I truly like. Zatchatievskyi Monastery there is truly beautiful.

    Of course Moscow is a huge city and there are a lot of beautiful places left undisturbed providing an authentic Russian feeling. But Novaya Moskva and its towers are not to my liking: all these skyscrapers are like a trace of some alien civilization incrustation.

  119. Hyperborean says
  120. Yep. Our world is not getting better. OTOH in the Hunza Valley they manage to keep their traditions way of life more or less undisturbed, while also adapting to modernity with the help of their Ismaili community worldwide.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/57/7f/c2/577fc253bf40aef542eca267f8ea9bc8.jpg

    Whatever we might think of the Aga Khan and his people, the fact that they help preserving the Pamiri and Hunza way of life and identity are truly commendable.

  121. Yep I had the same idea, she looks Slav. I tried to verify the info about her being a Pamiri and didn’t find much on the internet.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ea/0d/b0/ea0db0599a3f7a3b840804b99fc1dcd9.jpg

    Here is another child from the same highland area. Probably a Burusho.

  122. Blinky Bill says

    There was a time when much of Great Britain was populated by people like this.

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUJxyWRt1jrbSQepArD_IZhVT80DDWUmCabQ&usqp.jpg

    Whom the gods would destroy they first make mad.

    Every few years I get asked about Nuristanis and Kalash. The reason is that these people are often white. By white, I mean that some Nuristanis and Kalash are fair-skinned, blonde-haired, and blue-eyed. Entering “Nuristani” into Google images returns some very white faces. And you have weird news stories about ‘white’ Taliban, because non-locals don’t realize that some Nuristanis look like Northern Europeans.

    Since the vast majority of people who look like white Northern Europeans are white Northern Europeans, many people assume that the Nuristanis and Kalash must have some kinship to white Northern Europeans. More precisely, many have spread the legend that these people have some relationship to the soldiers of Alexander the Great (even though Macedonians are Southern European…details).

    As it turns out, they do have some kinship to Europeans…but not inordinately more than any of the other peoples of the region. The TreeMix plot at the top of this post shows that Greeks are far closer to Iranian Jews than they are to Kalash. In fact, the Kalash clearly have a non-trivial proportion of “Ancestral South Indian” South Asian ancestry.

    Because of their high genetic drift (they’re endogamous and kind of inbred) a lot of population genetic analyses are a bit more difficult with the Kalash samples that are out there. But their genetic affinities are clear:

    Table S4 show highly significant evidence (p value < 10−10) in the Kalash when using Armenia and Chamar as surrogates. Eight other pairings of surrogates give p values < 10−5. In all cases, the surrogate pairs include one group from South Asia (Chamar, Kol) and the other from West Eurasia (Armenia, Adygei, Brahui, Hungarians, Palestinians, Tuscans), consistent with admixture from a West Eurasian source.

    Chamar are a Dalit caste of Northern India if you don’t know.

    So what’s going on with the Kalash and Nuristanis? Appreciable frequencies of alleles which are correlated with traits like blue-eyes are found amongst them. Though the frequencies are much lower than in Northern Europeans. Very white looking Nuristanis and Kalash may be highly salient to photographers and the Western media, but it turns out most Nuristanis and Kalash look West Asian, with a minority who are dark-skinned enough that their South Asian ancestry is also quite clear.

    This disjunction between appearance and ancestry should not surprise us. There has been a lot of recent change in physical appearance across populations over the last 10,000 years. Europeans themselves have changed in appearance. Similarly, other populations have as well. Some of them look similar to Europeans due to happenstance or convergence.

    Another case are the Ainu of Japan. Though as an unadmixed group they no longer exist, old photos show some of them exhibiting an appearance not typical of East Asians. This led early anthropologists to posit that the Ainu were a “lost white race.” And yet to my knowledge, no European ancestry is found in Hokkaido, or in the Tohoku region, where Ainu-like people lived down to the early medieval period.

    The moral of the story: don’t judge the contents of the book by its cover.

    Razib Kahn

  123. Blinky Bill says
  124. Blinky Bill says

    Why physical appearance is an imperfect individual proxy for ancestry.

    For readers who are not aware, the Kalash area group of Indo-Aryan speaking pagans who reside in the fastness of Chitral, Pakistan. Genetically about ~30% of their ancestry can be modeled as “Sintashta”, the pastoralist Indo-Europeans who were dominant in Bronze Age Turan, and likely gave rise to the Indo-Aryans. The remaining ~70% of their ancestry is similar to that of the Indus Valley people.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/02/16/why-physical-appearance-is-an-imperfect-individual-proxy-for-ancestry/

  125. Salaries in Ukraine have been improving. They now surpass those of Belarus and all three Caucasian republics (even Azerbaijan, though they are practically tied):

    LOL – so the demented fantasist wacko who knows nothing about Ukraine, has never been to it, can’t speak the language and whose posts and any of these issues confirm my statement when you are subjected to ANY scrutiny on this retarded behaviour ( LMAO on mir/svet which is as disturbing as it is funny and numerous other shameful things)…..is lying again to make obviously false comments. Armenia, Belarus ( by a long distance), Azerbaijan and even Moldova are much richer in wages than Banderastan . However much demented editing of idiotic wikipedia pages you do will not change those facts……..or even all of Ukropia outside of Kiev being a disaster in wages compared to even the poorest parts of Ingushettia. No sane person thinks Belarus wage is anything else except multiple times more than Ukropia. Gruzia and Armenia also much better ( which anybody 30 years before would have considered an insane idea)

    As I have probably said several times to a dimwit like you………apart from wages falling ,massively after evromaidan and being disaster to live on- the fake “increase” outside of the obvious lying data by the authorities, contains “small lying” in the form of the pension age increase occurring at the same time as massive youth unemployment and exodus from the country….which artificially “increases” the wage from figures that nobody in Ukraine seems to have heard of and poverty becomes even more gigantic. Young people starting on the lower wages are not there, and the older people working on because of the necessity are retained on their “higher” wages instead of being sent onto their pitiful pensions.

    As an example – In Russia in the last year wages on average raised for the first time over 50000 roubles (52000 from 47000 in 2019) after inflation that is a raise in real income of 2.5%. Now for a dishonest and immensely thick cretin as yourself it may be too difficult to understand that these numbers are not the indicator of Russian GDP contradicting logic and growing during a worldwide recession……..but obviously a fact that a few million more people have become unemployed and the wage per capita ( those in employment) figure increases.

    Any more fantasies? I’m still almost injured from laughter at “traditional Galician culture ” video.

  126. Just to be perfectly clear: all R1a people of Central Asia are descended from the Arkaim Sintashta Culture populations. Whether they today identify as Turkic or Indo-Iranian is not important.

    Their ancestors came from the Corded Ware Culture descended Andronovo people who built both Arkaim and Sintashta fortified settlements.

    Those who are R1b among the Bashkir, Uyghur and Mongol populations are descended from Afanasievo Culture people derived from Yamnaya.

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/04/early-indo-iranian-formed-mainly-by-r1a-z93-and-r1b-z2103-and-corded-ware-out-of-indo-european-speaking-migrations/

    The earliest Altaic proto – Turks were most probably derived from the Okunevo Culture people who lived nearby since the early Bronze Age.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okunev_culture

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/06/yamna-afanasevo-elite-males-dominated-by-r1b-l23-okunevo-brings-ancient-siberian-asian-population/

    By the time of Ferdowsi (middle ages) all these populations intermixed to a very large extent. The Nordic looking types are simply the recessive phenotypes arising from the backcrossing of a genetically heterogeneous population.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bc/6f/0e/bc6f0eb41388edc0b409c2b5bc3bd0f4.jpg

    A picture of an Uyghur girl.

    And yeah, both R1a and R1b haplogroups have probably arised somewhere in the south Siberia in the mesolithic. Therefore, all of them have Russian ancestry!

    And Russians are POC…

    Voilà!

  127. Armenia, Belarus ( by a long distance), Azerbaijan and even Moldova are much richer in wages than Banderastan

    Net monthly salary from wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    https://i.imgur.com/xAPEovu.png

    Ukraine is ahead of Belarus, Armenia, and Georgia. It is about tied with Azerbaijan.

    When adjusted for cost of living in addition to these, it beats Albania, Kosovo, Moldova and Azerbaijan (barely).

    Thus its position is better than it had been prior to Maidan, when only Moldova had lower wages.

    This is not surprising for people who know Ukraine, not just read about it from Russian sources (or pro-Russian ones within Ukraine).

    However much demented editing of idiotic wikipedia pages you do

    LOL, I never edited that page. Which of these editors do you think is me?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage&action=history

    the fake “increase” outside of the obvious lying data by the authorities

    Are the Turks also lying?

    https://www.aa.com.tr/en/culture/despite-pandemic-ukrainians-flock-to-turkish-riviera/2001637

    Despite the pandemic, some half a million Ukrainian tourists have flocked to a scenic resort on the Turkish Riviera since flights there resumed this summer, said a top tourism official on Friday.

    “Almost 500,000 Ukrainian tourists have visited Antalya since July,” said Nadir Alpaslan, Turkey’s deputy culture and tourism minister, touting the strong numbers in the face of challenging conditions due to coronavirus.

    Last year, nearly 1.6 million Ukrainian tourists vacationed in sunny Antalya, Alpaslan told a meeting of the Turkey-Ukraine Joint Tourism Commission in the Mediterranean resort city.

    The 2019 figure of 1.6 million compares to 1.2 million in 2017

    Any more fantasies? I’m still almost injured from laughter at “traditional Galician culture ” video.

    LOL, you are still jealous about the Galician girls wearing nicer dresses than the ones you wear.

  128. https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cr_53.pdf

    You’re full of shit. Indians have the lowest level of cultural assimilation of all ethnic groups in the U.S. Considering their lower numbers as compared with many Hispanic groups, that’s impressive.

    This idea that host nations should be happy to welcome in foreigners who get rich at the expense of the locals is risible. It’s even worse when it’s from a parasitic, ethnically nepotistic, hostile group like Indians.

  129. she looks Slav.

    Because of her light hair and eyes, she looks “North European”. There is nothing specifically Slavic about it, if you dress it in a Swedish costume, it will look like a Swedish child

    The mutation associated with light hair/eyes has appeared many times in different parts of the world. Here are the Kabyles from Africa

    https://data.whicdn.com/images/191287779/original.jpg

    And here is a child from the Iraqi Kurds
    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f9/02/83/f902833fff90c0b6ff27fdc120aba6d6–actus-afghanistan.jpg

  130. Kabyles are Berbers (not Africans in the sense one usually means) and Kurds are Indo-Europeans.

  131. The Alarmist says

    Is that a lightened version of Cheddar Man?

    Seriously, when they first came out with the reconstruction of Cheddar Man, he was much darker …

    https://www.chesterbugle.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/cheddar-man.jpg

    I guess this how they can get away with casting a black woman as Anne Boleyn.

    The more interesting thing is how many black nobles Russia had at the time of Catherine the Great, or at least that’s what the producers of The Great would have us believe.

  132. Spain is flooded with Chinese immigrants (whether illegal or legal), while Ukraine is not flooded with Chinese immigrants.

    Spain is hardly ‘flooded’ with Chinese immigrants which number some 200,000, behind Morocco, Romania, Columbia, UK, Italy and other Latin American countries from where hundreds of thousands of immigrants have naturalized to become Spanish Citizens.

    When you look at the income graph, there is the explanation for why Chinese immigrate to Spain, but do not immigrate to Ukraine. (More likely, that Ukrainians will immigrate to China, than Chinese immigrating to Ukraine nowadays).

    The top 15 cities in China with a combined population of 260 million have a GDP per capita exceeding USD20K. And yet Africa hosts a population of 2 million Chinese immigrants while Europe hosts half as many at 1 million. So GDP per capita is not the reason why Chinese emigrate to Africa or Europe where they seek economic opportunities not as ‘laborers’ but as ‘entrepreneurs’, mostly in family-owned trading businesses as importers, wholesalers and retailers. Africans are poorer than Europeans, thus creating a larger market for cheaper Chinese-made goods than Europe which explains the larger number of Chinese immigrants in Africa, plying their trade selling those Chinese goods to Africans.

    That’s true in much of the ‘developing’ world in Africa, Asia and Latin America where Chinese immigrants have established business networks to distribute Chinese-made goods since the 80s. But that ‘cross-border trade’ is dying as Chinese multinationals have arrived to either manufacture and/or distribute Chinese goods, directly to those markets outside of China.

  133. This is a pro-Navalny account. So keep that i mind. She also visited a US university and was impressed by the woke stuff. I would not be surprised if this thing was recruited while it was it the US to make videos “explaining Russia” to foreigners, how bad the rus gov is and how pro-western russian people are. Then it can receive her salary as “donations”.

  134. People in Belarus probably get more things for free outside of wages. Living standards are definitely higher than in Ukraine.

    Where is the growth in Ukraine coming from? Is it all cheap IT outsourcing?

    Basically all industry is dead. About 5k cars produced per year. Shipbuilding more or less entirely dead. Steel production which has been one of the productive sectors keep declining in output. Electricity production has declined over 50%. Obviously no planes are being built. There is some production of railway freight cars but small output compared to say 2013. Small numbers old trams, buses and trucks but nothing much.

    Why doesn’t Volkswagen open a factory in Ukraine? There should be plenty of cheap qualified workers. Maybe the plan is to let the Ukrainians work in Volkswagen factories in Poland instead.

  135. People in Belarus probably get more things for free outside of wages. Living standards are definitely higher than in Ukraine

    Maybe. I’ve visited Ukraine and am in touch with relatives there, but not so with Belarus. Living standards in Kiev and Lviv are fine, but I’ve seen some very poor rural areas.

    Where is the growth in Ukraine coming from? Is it all cheap IT outsourcing?

    They’ve been building plants producing wiring and such for German auto manufacturers in places like Zhytomir and Vynnytsia. These regions have seen significant improvement. One of my cousins from this area took his family on vacation to Turkey and another to Egypt in 2019. This was the first time they were able to do foreign trips to beach resorts. This anecdote is supported by Turkish statistics showing record number of vacationers from Ukraine in 2019.

    Salaries are improving because if they are too low, workers will simply move to Poland. It is cheaper for companies to raise salaries in Ukraine to a level that is still much lower than in Poland but that is an improvement for Ukraine (enough to keep people local).

    Basically all industry is dead

    Depending on statistics there has been either steady decline, or stagnation – not utter collapse. Loss of some industries has been compensated by improvement elsewhere. But manufacturing overall had been a weak spot- IT services, agriculture, construction have been good.

    About 5k cars produced per year

    Yes but production of car parts such as wiring for cars has increased:

    https://www.ft.com/content/27f943ac-91b4-11e8-9609-3d3b945e78cf

    Ukraine industries strive to bring migrant workers home

    Car parts manufacturing is thriving, but many workers have left…

    Employing some 3,200 people, the Zhytomyr assembly line is Kromberg & Schubert’s second in Ukraine, where dozens of global companies in the labour-intensive business have aggressively expanded in past years.

    Attracted by low monthly salaries of $300 to $500, global auto wiring companies including Leoni, Fujikura and Yazaki have shifted production to Ukraine from central and eastern European countries where costs have increased.

    Oleksandr Shavarskyi, commercial plant manager at the Zhytomyr plant — whose senior management is almost entirely Ukrainian — estimates the boom time for parts manufacturers has created “from 100,000 to 200,000” jobs. These include production line workers, subcontractors, and associated services. “In our business, all of the players are present here . . . dozens of them,” he adds…

    Article was from late 2018.

    Why doesn’t Volkswagen open a factory in Ukraine?

    Too much risk for such a largescale investment?

  136. Blinky Bill says

    I believe the consensus view is that he was substantially darker than modern Brits, but not as dark as initially portrayed.

  137. In Russia, the government is extremely pro-immigrant on a policy level

    This (with reservations) is true only for the post-Soviet space. Otherwise, Russia has sharply anti-immigrant legislation

  138. Radicalcenter says

    This is such a great idea that Israel should try it first! Not with this lame, barely diverse “Oriental Jews”, but with Africans as you’re urging on Europe. Come on, why go halfway, bubela.

  139. Radicalcenter says

    I beg to differ, Sil. Brazil sure is exciting. Running to escape a rape or mugging gets the heart pumping, blood flowing, is great exercise and makes you feel alive. Aaron is a heck of a guy to want the same African enrichment for Europe. I can see that he sincerely has the best interests of Europeans at heart.

  140. Radicalcenter says

    To their good fortune, your Ashkenazi forebears mixed en masse with Italians, and to a lesser extent with Germanics and Slavs. That is a far cry from mass mixing with Africans or Pakistanis/Indians, and you know it.

    If not, tell us about your efforts to convince Israelis to open their doors wide to mass African, Arab, and Pakistani/Indian immigration….. (cue the John Derbyshire crickets)

    Also, you should take the lead and marry and procreate with an African or Pakistani. It would be a Schande if you didn’t follow your own advice. And be sure to post some wedding photos.

  141. “European nations are all wonderful and great – but hasn’t the old civilization exhausted itself? ”

    “…might this not lead to something exciting and new? ”

    “Why is this to be so feared?”

    Yes, for it’s the destiny of most peoples and nations to wither away and die, unlike the chosen nation! Some folks ain’t just special enough, so it’s “exciting” that they break down.

  142. You are now doing quite much cherry picking with your Kalash photos, children are almost everywhere fairer than adult folks.

    https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/57125c2c2b8dde54a34b537f/1555842258162-FUNX8XGYY0IHFP3KUGZ4/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kFTEgwhRQcX9r3XtU0e50sUUqsxRUqqbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N4V1vUb5AoIIIbLZhVYxCRW4BPu10St3TBAUQYVKcW7uEhC96WQdj-SwE5EpM0lAopPba9ZX3O0oeNTVSRxdHAmtcci_6bmVLoSDQq_pb/maxresdefault.jpg

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/y39msuZBzIsN-nKGp63lAk2t87b9j36kY-759-CnWl6KwXVKZKekIdyANIMFAkwqRSUDH9hZQAumlYywQD_qUWfXoGn4pCE370okPjUR5QTFM_8WYw

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/66/49/6b/66496b50dbfa691984d4b68aaf84bf4e.jpg

    Please dont spread Nordicist racial fantasies. Ancient Aryans were fairer than modern day Indians or Iranians, but they were still genetically much closer to modern day Punjabis and Tajiks than they are to modern Spanish or Anglos.

    By the way I found again one good proof for the Aryanness of the historical Buddha. Two first laymen to convert to Buddhism were two merchants from Bactria, named Trapusa and Bhallika, in those times Aryan Scythians/Saka inhabited that once famous land. I think it tells something that the first men who came to Buddhism were from Bactria, or maybe its just a coincidence, but my intuition says otherwise.

    Anyway there are no pure, or even mostly pure Aryans left, but their genes have spread wide and far, and it can be said that Punjabis and some Russian people have around ~40% their heritage from the ancient Aryans.

    Buddha’s people the Shakyas were pure Aryans, and they guarded ferociously the purity of their bloodline from mingling with those who they saw lesser than themselves(almost everybody else, lol), but, alas, all Shakyans perished in battle against the army of kingdom of Kosala, only those men survived who had become mendicants in Buddha’s monastic order. Still what happened to their women? This is my speculation, but I think that they burned themselves in mass Jauhar, after all they were famous for their pride. Such women would have chosen burning over desecration, and such cases of Ksathriya women burning themselves after the defeat and slaughter of their men in battle, have been recorded multiple times in history.

    There’s nothing more Aryan than willingly perishing in flames! So please people remember that in the struggle against the great Satan of our times! What else a nuclear war would be but one great and radiant Jauhar! I’m of course writing metaphorically, so don’t take me too seriously…

  143. Kabyles got admixed with Vandals when the North African Vandal kingdom was defeated by the Byzantine. The remaining Vandals escaped to the Kabylia mountains and assimilated with the Berber clans. You are correct about the Kurds, funnily enough someone who speaks Russian could easily guess what Peshmerga means.

  144. You are correct about the Kurds, funnily enough someone who speaks Russian could easily guess what Peshmerga means.

    The Ukrainian version of Peshmerga would be “Bezsmertni.”

    One couldn’t guess it naively, but knowing the meaning one can see the clear parallels.

  145. Do you have any noble, higher feelings in you Altan or do you have to view everything through the angle of petty ethnic resentment? Are you ever able to take the eagle-eyed “large view” and see the world and humanity sub specie aeternitas or are you always mired in petty squabbles and jealousies?

    Don’t answer 🙂

    I’ve said the Jews went through a much more severe mixture and undergoing a massive one today in Israel.

    The so called Jewish nation has withered and died many times and become reborn with new ethnic mixtures and on a new cultural basis many times. And it is doing so again.

    In this it is similar to Europe. Death-and-rebirth, the new-but-old pattern…

  146. There’s so much BS in Razib’s text, that I dont even bother to refute his every falsehood. But some are so glaring that I must refute them.

    They refer to Huns as having “brought the East-Asian anthropological phenotype to Central Asia.” There is no clear definite foundation for this assertion. Unfortunately historians do not have a clear idea what the ethno-linguistic character of the Huns was. By the time Roman observers encountered them the Hunnic horde seems to have been predominantly German, with a Iranian (Alan) secondary component, the Huns themselves being a small elite (Attila’s name itself may be Gothic). In light of subsequent eruptions into Europe of Turkic and Ugric nomads it is easy to slot the Huns into this exotic category, but the primary literature makes it clear that you can’t ascertain their ethnic character from the contemporary sources (the “White Huns” of Central and South Asia had no real connection to the Huns of Europe).

    Roman statesman and historian Jordanes, who had lived for a some time among Huns and even met Attila, described how Attila looked in one of his surviving writings.

    “He was short of stature, with a broad chest and a large head; his eyes were small, his beard thin and sprinkled with grey; and he had a flat nose and a swarthy complexion, showing the evidence of his origin.”

    Romans never described Germanic people in this way. In my opinion this description fits perfectly with a tanned steppe nomad man.

    It is true that European observers of the Mongol expansion did not have a sanguine attitude. But the idea that Mongols were genocidal exterminationists really comes to us via the Islamic historians

    Its not only Muslim historians who wrote so, but Tibetan, Russian and Chinese too. There are multiple mentions in old Tibetan texts how this or that Lama argued with some Mongol Khan why he should not kill those Chinese under his rule, who were deemed useless by the Khan. Yes there are mentions in Tibetan texts how Mongols killed old and infirm Chinese because they were not productive enough. Anyway writing about “total extermination” is a straw man, no Muslim or any other has ever claimed that Mongols destroyed some particular nation to last man, just that they killed a huge part of some nation, or destroyed some city almost completely.

    Its clear that Mongol invasion changed dramatically demographics in Central Asia, but its maximalist to claim that native inhabitants were totally obliterated, as its also to claim that the change was slow and gradual, great part survived and mixed with the conquerors, and lost some of their culture, or why all records of Khorasmian language disappear after the Mongol conquest, even Soghdian survives as Yaghnobi language in Pamir mountains, so the invasion must have been quite shock for the sedentary populations of Amu darya.

    It’s complicated. And one has to be very careful about using terms like “Turk” in a localized context, vs. a more international one. The Turks of Turkey are overwhelming derived from the same source populations as their Balkan (because of Rumelian Turks), Iranian, and Armenian, neighbors. The decline in East Asian fraction is evident even in this sample, as the Turcomans from western Uzbekistan have the least eastern ancestry of any of the groups.

    All Turks are Turks except those raped Greeks, Armenians and Persians larping as Turks. IT’S SO FRICKING SIMPLE!

  147. When Jews married local Italians, they were a racial mixture of Latin, Gothic, and the many ex slaves of the Roman Empire. This was not an especially high quality population at the time – indeed, Dark Ages Europe was not a notably high quality population at the time.

    And Jews experienced an ethnic infusion of 50% – much higher than I envisioned for Europe.

    Today, Ashkenazi are intermarrying at a high rate with Brown Jews – the equivalent of Pakistanis/Arabs, and it is producing a vigorous, attractive, and successful hybrid stock.

    So I am certainly not suggesting anything for you that I am not suggesting for Jews – in fact, I am suggesting a significantly lower rate of ethnic mixing for Europe, and merely entertaining the possibility that it may lead to an exciting new hybrid stock. I am not even prescribjng anything.

    Concerns about lowering quality are legitimate, but hard to calculate. Introducing a “fun loving”, or artistic, element into dour northerners may be a positive addition to the whole, just as fusing with a more earthy, “physical” element is good for Ashkenazim.

    Plus things develop in unforeseen ways once a nation begins the process of assimilation. No one could have guessed that mixture of Goths, Latins, Gauls, and ex slaves from across the Empire would create one of the words most brilliant cultures.

    And I am not saying Europe should continue allowing immigration. It should have stopped yesterday.

    And I am not even saying this will necessarily leas to a successful hybrid stock.

  148. AltanBakshi says

    Good answer, you answered just like I expected you would. But what about Mizrahi Jews? Have they withered, died and mixed, or the men of your priestly caste, the Levites? Thus one can claim that the core of ancient Jewish nation is still quite extant, without withering, dying and mixing.

    For clarification, I don’t see mixing between Eurasian populations as a great danger, heck I’m myself a product of such mixing.

  149. AltanBakshi says

    no Muslim or any other has ever claimed that Mongols destroyed some particular nation to last man

    Oh I should have mentioned Tanguts. They were not completely exterminated, but almost. Its a very sad story, they were related to Tibetans and inhabited lands between Tibet and Mongolia or China proper and Xinjiang, had their own interesting culture, literature and history. Chingghis Khaan for some reason wanted their complete destruction, so their civilization was completely destroyed. But at least Chinese got new lands to settle.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Western_Xia.png

    Tanguts also loved to build cone like pyramids.

    https://live.staticflickr.com/714/22750291470_926fe7596e_b.jpg

    They were also somehow responsible for the Great Khaans death, which sealed their fate in the eyes of the Mongols.

  150. 410,000 Ukrainians became Russian citizens. The passport-giving program in the LDNR is evidently advancing at an increasing clip. This makes the prospect of a Ukrainian “Operation Storm” increasingly unfeasible.

    What do you mean? Perhaps you wanted to write “unnecessary”? Presumably a big majority of those new citizens are ethnically- and fealty-wise very close to Russians already, not the less from the LDNR area, as you seem to notice by bringing up that “passport-giving program”. With less such people in LNDR, the Ukraine would, one supposes, find it more, not less, feasible to “storm” it.

    There is an “Afroshop” a few blocks from where I live. When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone.

    Disrespectful.

    I happen to live in the part of Moscow that happens to have the highest density of Blacks in Russia.

    Hm. I feel a sudden need to learn Russian…

  151. With less such people in LNDR, the Ukraine would, one supposes, find it more, not less, feasible to “storm” it.

    I think these are people still living in Donbas, who now have Russian citizenship. Storming it would thus lead to the killing of Russian citizens, which would likely trigger a Russian response. Ukraine would less interested in a full on war with Russia than in simply storming this region.

    Hopefully the presence of all these Russian citizens means that Russia won’t be trying to shove this region back into Ukraine.

  152. Mizrahi Jews have certainly mixed with local populations, and that is evident in their appearance. And Levites and Cohens do not look significantly different from other Jews, so there is no evidence they represent any purer stock.

    Jews of all stripes probably bear the sane relation to ancient Hebrews as Italians do to Romans.

    Fact is, the ancient Hebrews as well as the ancient Romans are an extinct race. This does not mean that the genes of these races are lost – they have simply flowed into a larger gene pool and become one strain among several.

    This happens all the time and is the way of nature -nature is making constant experiments, combining and recombinant.

    The idea of a “pure race” does have an interesting, mythical hold on the imagination of mankind – like an “aristocratic stock” that forever retains its superiority unless it mixes.

    Yet the interesting thing is, that no aristocracy retains its vitality unless it receives periodic fusions of new blood. There seems to be an inexorable process of genetic decay – perhaps caused by genetic drift – in any closed aristocracy that leads to eventual decay. Entropy is always waiting behind the scenes.

    Gregory Clark famously showed that in England, noble surnames continue to be overrepresented in distinguished professions (even though modern professions have nothing to do with the skills an ancient nobility needed) – which obviously means ambitious people from the lower classes were marrying into the nobility and adopting their surnames at a steady rate.

    The ancient Hebrews would never have been able to retain their vitality down the centuries had they remained a “pure stock”. They would today be nobodies. It is precisely because Jews continue to mix that they manage to constantly reinvent themselves and keep entropy at bay. And they are doing it again is Israel in a big way. Slavic blood, Arab blood, European blood, Ethiopian blood, and all the many diverse communities of Jews from everywhere – what will come of it?

  153. I’d respond that I’m here for some of that sweet, sweet thicc ebony booty! 😀 Rawr! 😉

  154. Hopefully the presence of all these Russian citizens means that Russia won’t be trying to shove this region back into Ukraine.

    That required Ukrainian consent, which was unlikely in any case. The smart Ukrainians, such as Alexander Motyl, were already well-aware of this back in 2014 and thus have already advocated for a while that Ukraine should leave the Donbass alone for the time being.

  155. Bold PREDICTION: Russia (as well as most of Europe and probably even Japan) will have a higher TFR than the Central Asian countries come 2050.

    This might make Russia more enthusiastic about the Eurasian Economic Union in the long(er)-run–though possibly Central Asia less so, due to the greater Russian domination that this will result in. Of course, this might simply result in Central Asians pushing Afghanistan (if it will sufficiently moderate by then, that is) and/or Iran to join the Eurasian Economic Union so that Muslims could achieve greater demographic parity there.

  156. So less finished products and instead more production of parts for a larger supply chain?

    Do you have any numbers of agricultural production and exports by year in Ukraine?

  157. Gregory Clark famously showed that in England, noble surnames continue to be overrepresented in distinguished professions (even though modern professions have nothing to do with the skills an ancient nobility needed) – which obviously means ambitious people from the lower classes were marrying into the nobility and adopting their surnames at a steady rate.

    I think social mobility in the past, pre-industrial revolution, was largely downward. The upper classes had more surviving children (usually about 3 times more) than those at the bottom. There wasn’t space or positions available for most of them at their parents level, so they were gradually pushed down the social scale. Descendants of some of those noble surnames are probably overrepresented at every level of society compared to the poor of their era whose children didn’t survive.

  158. The Spirit of Enoch Powell says

    Please dont spread Nordicist racial fantasies. Ancient Aryans were fairer than modern day Indians or Iranians, but they were still genetically much closer to modern day Punjabis and Tajiks than they are to modern Spanish or Anglos.

    I was under the impression that the Ancient Aryans looked like modern day Georgians?

  159. Ukraine is ahead of Belarus, Armenia, and Georgia. It is about tied with Azerbaijan.

    When adjusted for cost of living in addition to these, it beats Albania, Kosovo, Moldova and Azerbaijan (barely).

    Thus its position is better than it had been prior to Maidan, when only Moldova had lower wages.

    HAHAHAHAHA! As I have said before you idiot – to anybody with a brain these numbers are so blatantly false it’s beyond a joke. Only an imbecile thinks wage is higher in Moldova than Belarus , only an imbecile ( and/or fantasist) thinks wages are higher in Kiev than Belarus…and that’s before we get to Ukrop pitiful average and Belarus. Only an imbecile thinks wages in Azerbaijan are lower than Ukraine………only a severely retarded idiot then not only propagates this BS – but then includes in the already fake link the one true thing……..THAT MOLDOVA HAS HIGHER WAGES THAN BANDERASTAN!! LOL. By implication the wages in the North Caucasus are higher than Belarus…this is ridiculous. And yes – Gruzia and Armenia with all their problems are still more prosperous than ukropia

    This is not surprising for people who know Ukraine, not just read about it from Russian sources (or pro-Russian ones within Ukraine).

    hahaha! Again as with the truly bizarre thing where I made a joke about the film Deliverance onto trash like you…then you somehow copied the joke and pretend it as your own…..you have literally just plagiarized my factually correct criticism of you, just copying links and not having any knowledge of the area and falsely projected in onto me….probably knowing 100% I was going to critisise you for your zero knowledge, experience and wikipedia copying BS. In reality Russian media is the one true , accurate source of news on Ukropia…..but more importantly my comments on wages are based entirely on friends, connection, family and just being closely linked to Ukraine all my life you idiot..in other words entirely anecdotal and common sense…not falsely copied and pasted wikipedia garbage.

    Despite the pandemic, some half a million Ukrainian tourists have flocked to a scenic resort on the Turkish Riviera since flights there resumed this summer, said a top tourism official on Friday.

    “Almost 500,000 Ukrainian tourists have visited Antalya since July,” said Nadir Alpaslan, Turkey’s deputy culture and tourism minister, touting the strong numbers in the face of challenging conditions due to coronavirus.

    Last year, nearly 1.6 million Ukrainian tourists vacationed in sunny Antalya, Alpaslan told a meeting of the Turkey-Ukraine Joint Tourism Commission in the Mediterranean resort city.

    FFS – Antalya is basically a Russian city in Turkey you idiot . When I can be bothered I will complete my point. All for now I will say is that only somebody with zero knowledge of Ukraine would make that cretinous point

  160. Mizrahi Jews have certainly mixed with local populations, and that is evident in their appearance. And Levites and Cohens do not look significantly different from other Jews, so there is no evidence they represent any purer stock.

    According to genetic studies you are wrong.

    Y-chromosomal Aaron is the name given to the hypothesized most recent common ancestor of the patrilineal Jewish priestly caste known as Kohanim (singular “Kohen”, also spelled “Cohen”). According to the Hebrew Bible, this ancestor was Aaron, the brother of Moses.

    The original scientific research was based on the hypothesis that a majority of present-day Jewish Kohanim share a pattern of values for six Y-STR markers, which researchers named the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH).[1] Subsequent research using twelve Y-STR markers indicated that about half of contemporary Jewish Kohanim shared Y-chromosomal J1 M267, (specifically haplogroup J-P58, also called J1c3), while other Kohanim share a different ancestry, such as haplogroup J2a (J-M410).

    Molecular phylogenetics research published in 2013, 2016, and 2020 for haplogroup J1 (J-M267) places the Y-chromosomal Aaron within subhaplogroup Z18271, age estimate 2,638–3,280 years Before Present (yBP)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron (what a coincidence?)

    Also Mizrahis are genetically surprisingly homogenic and have mostly common ancestors or so its written in the Wikipedia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

    The idea of a “pure race” does have an interesting, mythical hold on the imagination of mankind – like an “aristocratic stock” that forever retains its superiority unless it mixes.

    I fully agree, still all things exist relatively or in relation with something else. So relatively speaking some Jewish groups are very homogenic and inbred in comparison with people like Russians or Chinese. Or why else do Ashkenazim have so many various hereditary diseases?

    I think its silly that the Jews are blamed wrongly for some ills of the modern era, like universalism of modern West, some even here on this site believe that there’s ancient Semitic conspiracy or masterplan to infiltrate western spirituality and philosophy, that somehow universalism and multiculturalism are Jewish inventions forced upon weak Goyim, so that their societies would crumble or go under Jewish rule, how conveniently such people forget how the Rome was founded as a refuge for escaped slaves, convicts and vagrants, in other words for people without roots, or that ancient Greeks believed that they could Hellenize the local populations of Asia Minor, Greater Iran and Syria. What else than universalism was the policy of Alexander the Macedonian and Seleucids to bring all the cultural institutions of Hellas to places like Afghanistan, or how they arranged mass marriages between Greeks and native people of Middle East. But no for some people in this site ancient Europeans were some kind of proto-völkisch nature worshipping nazis, before they were tainted by the evil Semitic masterplan of Christianity and Islam.

    Dont misunderstand me, Islam and Judaism are in my opinion highly controversial religions, but not for silly reasons espoused by most people on this site.

    Spiritually speaking there is not much Aryan in them, and I do mean it in a spiritual sense, not in the way how nazis falsely used it. They appropriated it like black nationalists have appropriated ancient Egyptian civilization, shame on them!

    To claim that people are better or more special because of their community they belong or identity they espouse and not because of their acts, is not Aryan way to believe. (Sher Singh is this not how Guru Nanak too believed?)

  161. How the Ancient Aryans looked? Quite a complicated question, for there were various cultures in ancient times, loosely connected with each other, in different eras of history, in different areas of Eurasia which called themselves Aryan.

    I believe that the first culture that called themselves Aryans were people of the Sintashta culture in the Southern Urals, one good proof for this is that the word for slave in the Finno-Ugric languages is derived from the word Arya, and Finnic peoples have retained lots of ancient Indo-European, Germanic, Baltic etc loanwords in more archaic form than those words have survived in their original languages.
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orja
    They probably were quite fair and European looking though still distinct, but later when they spread to Central Asia and areas of BMAC/Bactria-MArgiana complex, they mixed strongly with locals, and I think that if you would mix a Russian with a Tajik you would get a person who would genetically at least crudely resemble those Aryans of the Central Asia, who later invaded Indian Subcontinent and Iranian plateau. These Aryans who had mixed with the native people of Iranian plateau and Afghanistan, belong to the so called Andronovo culture, though they also had little bit Eastern Asian admixture. Georgians are not much connected with Ancient Aryans and are in my limited knowledge more related to ancient native populations of Middle East, than with the Ancient Aryans.

  162. So less finished products and instead more production of parts for a larger supply chain

    Correct. Ukraine also has developed some weird niche specialties. A large percentage of ski equipment is made in Ukraine (recently there was a fire at Fischer’s largest factory, which is in Ukraine):

    https://www.intellinews.com/fire-nearly-destroys-legendary-fischer-ski-factory-in-ukraine-194516/

    The Fischer ski factory in Ukraine must be one of the country’s best kept secrets. Set up in the 40s and employing over 1,000 people, it produces about 60% of all the skis and snowboards that ride the mountains of Europe each season, and many other pieces of equipment to boot, not that most punters are aware as they don’t carry a “made in Ukraine” sticker on them.

    Now disaster has struck. A fire burned almost half of factory, by far Europe’s largest ski manufacturer, at the weekend, which is located in Mukachevo in the Carpathian mountains in western Ukraine.

    Apart from skis, the Mukachevo factory produces ice hockey sticks, equipping 27 teams of the National Hockey League.

    Do you have any numbers of agricultural production and exports by year in Ukraine?

    Due to a drought, Ukraine saw a drop in production in 2020 after a record-breaking 2019:

    https://www.agriculture.com/markets/newswire/ukraine-grain-exports-up-24-in-201920-season-so-far

    Ukraine’s grain exports are up around 24% at 40.9 million tonnes so far in the July 2019 to June 2020 season, the Ministry for Development of Economy, Trade and Agriculture said on Monday.

    Wheat exports have risen to 16.6 million tonnes, the ministry said in a statement. Ukraine has also exported about 4 million tonnes of barley and 19.8 million tonnes of corn, it added.

    The country harvested a record 75.1 million tonnes of grain in 2019, compared with 70 million tonnes in 2018.

    https://www.agriculture.com/markets/newswire/ukraines-202021-grain-exports-fall-198-so-far

    KYIV, Aug 19 (Reuters) – Ukraine’s grain exports have declined to 5.10 million tonnes so far in the 2020/21 July-June season, from 6.36 million tonnes at the same point of the previous season, the economy ministry said on Wednesday.

    The total volume has shrunk mainly due to lower exports of corn. Traders have sold 502,000 tonnes as of Aug. 19 compared to 1.68 million tonnes by the same date last season.

    The exports have also included 3.03 million tonnes of wheat and 1.56 million tonnes of barley.

    The ministry did not clarify whether the exported grain was harvested in 2020 or in 2019.

    Ukraine harvested a record 75.1 million tonnes of grain in 2019. The ministry expects that output could fall this year to 72.1 million tonnes because of poor weather.

    The country is the world’s fourth-largest wheat exporter with 56.5 million tonnes of grain sold in the 2019/20 season. The government has not given a grain export forecast for 2020/21. (Reporting by Natalia Zinets; editing by David Evans)

  163. to anybody with a brain these numbers are so blatantly false

    Whom to believe, a sourced wikipedia page about average European wages or an innumerate Sovok failed “engineer” masquerading as a female, who is jealous of teenage Galician girls because they wear dresses that are nicer than the ones he/she can afford to wear.

    Again:

    https://i.imgur.com/xAPEovu.png

    but then includes in the already fake link the one true thing……..THAT MOLDOVA HAS HIGHER WAGES THAN BANDERASTAN!

    So according to you some information there is fake and some is not, depending on what you like. Whatever.

    I suspect Moldova’s wages have risen and are now slightly higher than those in both Ukraine and Belarus due to closer links to Romania, which has become wealthier than Russia (Romanian average wage 743 Euros versus Russian average wage 449 Euros). However Moldova has also became more expensive so adjusted for cost of living it remains poorer than both Ukraine or Belarus:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    I made a joke about the film Deliverance

    You seem to be proud of expertise in this movie. Lots of experience in that stuff?

    In reality Russian media is the one true , accurate source of news on Ukropia

    Thanks for the confession, and explanation for your confusion.

  164. Y-chromosomal Aaron

    Is found in the majority of the Saudi Arabian males.

  165. AltanBakshi says

    Ishmaelite or Northern Arabs have always been quite closely related with the ancient people of Kanaan, unlike so called “true Arabs” of the southern Arabian peninsula or Qahtanite Arabs.

  166. Finno-Ugric languages is derived from the word Arya

    Orati is the ancient Rus verb for toiling the land . Orat’ in modern Russian is screaming loud, coming from the fact that when labouring the fields the villagers used to scream at their beasts of burden.

    Оратай, Оратель и Ратай — м. устар. 1. То же, что: землепашец Толковый словарь Ефремовой. Т. Ф. Ефремова. 2000 … Современный толковый словарь русского языка Ефремовой

    ОРАТАЙ — ОРАТАЙ, оратель и пр. см. орать. Толковый словарь Даля. В.И. Даль. 1863 1866 … Толковый словарь Даля

    ОРАТЬ — ОРАТЬ, орывать землю (ору и орю, орешь) сев. и малорос., новорос. пахать или взрывать, для посева, сабаном, плугом, косулей, сохою, оралом, ралом; местам говорят орать, о сабане, плуге; пахать, о сохе. Орем землю до глины, а едим мякину! Орать… … Толковый словарь Даля

    ОРАТЬ — ОРАТЬ, орывать землю (ору и орю, орешь) сев. и малорос., новорос. пахать или взрывать, для посева, сабаном, плугом, косулей, сохою, оралом, ралом; местам говорят орать, о сабане, плуге; пахать, о сохе. Орем землю до глины, а едим мякину! Орать… … Толковый словарь Даля

    оратай — землероб, земледелец, крестьянин, пахарь, ратай, хлебопашец Словарь русских синонимов. оратай см. земледелец Словарь синонимов русского языка. Практический справочник. М.: Русский язык. З. Е. Александрова

    That’s where the Finnish orja comes from = peasant / serf. Thinking that the Ugric people have massively enslaved Aryan populations is idiotic (sorry to be so blunt Altan).

    Although the migration of Y haplogroup N1a Tat from the paleo-Siberian to other ethnic groups and its presence among the elites of the Huns, Turks, Magyar is certainly interesting.

  167. The people of Canaan were not of “Y haplogroup Aaron” (an idiotic name the Jewish Israeli geneticist came with). The ancient Canaanite were Y haplogroups J2 like the majority of modern Lebanese .

    I agree about the Qahtanite who were more admixed with Afro-Asiatic populations that carried the Y haplogroup E.

    Basically, the Jewish priestly class was recruited among the Northern (proto) Arabic Midianite tribes. That’s where the cult of YHWH originated from. Hence the same Y haplotypes shared by both populations.

  168. AltanBakshi says

    That’s where the Finnish orja comes from = peasant / serf. Thinking that the Ugric people have massively enslaved Aryan populations is idiotic (sorry to be so blunt Altan).

    Calling slaves by the name of the neighbouring population was extremely common occurrence in history, no need for “massive enslaving,” just periodical cattle raids and clashes is enough. Don’t be so maximalist in your attitude, even though on steppes Ancient Aryans were militarily superior, Ancient Finn’s lived in forests and bogs, you cant do much with war chariots in such terrain, so it would not be surprising if Finn’s did night time raids against neighbouring Aryans.

  169. That’s how the Aryans looked like:

    https://i.redd.it/l7p1ewsg3e141.png

    https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-zen_doc/1680084/pub_5e7a6d164432af1a9b943017_5e7a86f87bd8597d62fbc1a5/scale_1200

    Altan is right, they were Corded Ware Culture derived Arkaim Sintashta people admixed with local populations.

    The original Corded Ware Culture people looked like:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/60/7c/41/607c41205c1e10c46a2611e3d5e53d47.jpg

    Basically like pure blooded Balto – Slavs.

    And the ancestors of the Western Europeans were the swarthy Iberian Bell Beaker folks;

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2018/12/03/10/6937800-0-image-a-21_1543833264542.jpg

    Quite normal for a population that was living on both sides of the Gibraltar.

    Of course the BBC and the CWC ended up entirely intermixed by the times of late Unetice Culture and early La Tene / Hallstatt Culture (that is Central European Celts).

    https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/171119/view/reconstructed-face-of-the-lindow-man-bog-body

    But among the Balto-Slav and the Ugric populations the CWC ancestry remained the primary and principal component. That is why the Nordic people are more blond etc.

  170. AltanBakshi says

    Basically, the Jewish priestly class was recruited among the Northern (proto) Arabic Midianite tribes. That’s where the cult of YHWH originated from. Hence the same Y haplotypes shared by both populations.

    So once again we can see how dramatical was the difference between Northern Kingdom of Israel and religiously more fanatic kingdom of Judah. Am I right? I very much believe that Christ was descendant of the people of ancient Israel, and not of Judah, after all Galilea is situated in the lands of old Northern Kingdom. Also there are quite condemning passages in New Testament about men of Judah.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+5%3A1-30&version=NIV

    Here’s one example among many.

  171. That was before any of these kingdoms existed, we are probably talking about populations that infiltrated the Levant from the desert during the Bronze Age collapse. They were (semi?) nomads who colonized a more developed territory when SHTF. Just like the Vedic Aryans did with the Indus river civilization and the Avestan Aryan did BMAC.

  172. AltanBakshi says

    Corded Ware and Yamnaya people were Indo-Europeans, but I don’t believe that they were Aryans, or that they called themselves by that name, but Sintashta and Andronovo have clearly lots of common culturally with people described in Holy Vedas and Avesta, their forts, chariots, animal husbandry and most importantly how they buried their dead. Most ancestors of Italians, Anglos, French and Germans never called themselves by the name of the Arya, or so I do believe.

    No greater race of men have ever existed, no finer folk has ever walked on earth. They gave us the Holy Vedas, the Holy Avesta, they gave us men like Zarathustra, Vedic Rishis and Buddha, they tamed the horse and build first chariots and we’re progenitors of chivalry and nobility, in a spiritual sense I mean. They truly were the Kinsmen of the Sun. So great were their deeds that they are not anymore material race of men, but a spiritual race.

  173. AltanBakshi says

    It’s quite clear that the Swarthy Dasas of Rigveda are ancient inhabitants of Afghanistan or BMAC, there are no ancient Bronze Age concentric fortresses in the Subcontinent, such as described in the Rig Veda, but there are numerous archeological findings of such forts in BMAC area.

  174. AltanBakshi says

    Yes your explanation is quite sound, Jews were originally people who came from desert and drove more civilized Canaanites away, but isn’t it quite likely that Northern tribes of Israel had more Canaanite blood in them than those of Southern Judah? Judah was closer to the desert and had less interaction with Phoenicians, and were more hostile to foreign cultures.

  175. I was once in touch with the Ukrainian ridnovira founder Sylenko. He worshiped the sun god Dazhboh and claimed Aryan was linked to the Ukrainian word oraty, that Ukrainians are descended from Scythian, who were the original Aryans and whose homeland was in Ukraine where horseback riding and/or chariots were invented, not Asia. He stated that Buddha was a Scythian and thus “our people.” He complained that Ukrainians were worshipping a Jewish God and listed the ways that Orthodox and Catholic figures betrayed Ukraine to Russians, Poles, etc.

    The guy lived in India for some time and compiled a Ukrainian-Sanskrit dictionary. My impression at the time was that the whole project and attempt to resurrect Slavic paganism was fake and nationalism to the point of absurdity, but the guy seemed earnest and well-meaning, and the Sanskrit dictionary was fascinating, at least.

    If I were to go the route of abandoning Christianity for the sake of following an Indo-European faith I would choose Zoroastrianism or perhaps Buddhism, which have continuous traditions, rather than an invented 20th century neo-paganism. But Christianity is deeply European also, and Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia, it can’t be considered more Indo-European that Christianity.

  176. Ukrainian word oraty

    See my comment # 171

    Yes Buddha’s clan was of Scythian ancestry.

  177. AltanBakshi says

    Ukrainians are descended from Scythian

    Partially Ukrainians are probably their descendants and Scythians were descendants of people who used Aryan as an ethnic self moniker.

    Anyway Aryan does not equal Indo-European or Proto-Indo-European.

    But Christianity is deeply European also, and Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia, it can’t be considered more Indo-European that Christianity.

    I have never disputed the European character of Christianity.
    Still I think that we would be quite shallow men if we would choose our faith primarily because of its geographical origins and not because it deeply resonates with our spirit or intelligence.

    Like I mentioned before, Aryans are now a spiritual race, their ranks are open to anyone who shows innate nobility of character, just as Christ’s Israel is not only for Jews, though only faith alone is not enough for person to achieve the Aryan state, only those with a very high level of spiritual realization are Aryans.

  178. Corded Ware and Yamnaya people were Indo-Europeans, but I don’t believe that they were Aryans, or that they called themselves by that name, but Sintashta and Andronovo have clearly lots of common culturally with people described in Holy Vedas and Avesta, their forts, chariots, animal husbandry and most importantly how they buried their dead.

    Aryans were the populations derived from the Sintashta Arkaim culture. It was after Unetice, after Bell Beaker, after Corded Ware and Tripolian cultures.

    Most ancestors of Italians, Anglos, French and Germans never called themselves by the name of the Arya, or so I do believe.

    Of course, their male ancestors were mainly Bell Beaker. The Bell Beaker were a specific subset of Yamnaya derived population.

    The Bell Beaker folks have nothing to do with the people of Sintashta and Arkaim. Completely and utterly unrelated. Scythians are all derived from a mix of Yamnaya and Corded Ware (mainly Corded Ware, Sarmatians mainly Yamnaya). Bell Beaker are a very specific West European subset of Yamnaya people, they produced Italo – Celts and Germans, but nos Slavs or Finns.

    Basically, East European and West European populations diverged long ago, but they intermixed afterwards in the Unetice Culture.

  179. Anyway Aryan does not equal Indo-European or Proto-Indo-European.

    Of course, most Western European people have nothing to do with Vedic or Avestan Aryans. Their male ancestors are Bell Beaker, whose most archaic artefacts are found in Nirthern Morocco and Atlantic Portugal. Basically, some Yamnaya descended folks ended up passing through Caucasus, Middle East and arrived in the Maghreb and then invaded the Iberian peninsula and the rest Western Europe.

    Since the mid-3rd Millennium BC the Bell Beaker phenomenon was spanning the vast area from Northwest Africa to the hearth of Carpathian Basin. One of the earliest Beaker styles is the “Maritime tradition” that probably originated from the Early Copper Age “Copos” in the area of the mouth of the River Tajo in Portugal. The pedigree of the specific Bell Beaker stamped decoration may be found in the northwestern Morocco Late Neolithic cemeteries of Skirat and El Kiffen.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330729106_Turek_J_2012_Origin_of_the_Bell_Beaker_phenomenon_-_the_Moroccan_connection_In_Harry_Fokkens_-_Franco_Nicolis_Bell_beakers_in_Transition_Sidestone_Press_Leiden_pp_155-167_ISBN_9789088900846

    I have never disputed the European character of Christianity.

    Christianity is a MENA Abrahamic Helenistic syncretic cult. It colonized Europe, but European peoples had other spiritual traditions before, and probably will have other spiritual traditions after. Despite whatever Christians believe, the world will not end with their creed.

  180. Despite whatever Christians believe, the world will not end with their creed

    The creed will not end, but those who abandon it will, and will be replaced by those who didn’t abandon it.

  181. and will be replaced by those who

    … submit to Allah

    Islam is the fastest-growing religion in Europe. According to the Pew Research Center, the Muslim population in Europe (excluding Turkey) was about 30 million in 1990, and 44 million in 2010; the Muslim share of the population increased from 4.1% in 1990 to 6% in 2010.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/94/a6/4f/94a64f22613b530ed9bc97e9e56c2d85.gif

    The ultimate result of a series of spiritual substitions.

    We should have stayed with the Seer of Light and the Thunder Cross.

    It’s impossible to go back in time, but it is still possible to join the Middle Path…

  182. and will be replaced by those who

    … submit to Allah

    Globally, Islam is growing faster than Christianity but Christianity is also growing. Islam’s birth rate is declining. If you speak of replacement of godless childless Europeans, it will eventually be of both Europeans and Arabs by Christian sub-Saharans (there are more Christians than Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa).

    The ultimate result of a series of spiritual substitions.

    We should have stayed with the Seer of Light and the Thunder Cross.

    Pagan Europe was not a highly developed and populated civilization such as India. Paganism of tribes have stood no chance. They have always been replaced by either Islam or Christianity when encountered by either of these.

    It’s impossible to go back in time, but it is still possible to join the Middle Path…

    A very foreign faith, alien to Europeans. Of course a European can sincerely convert to it (non-Europeans convert to Christianity all the time) but your specific implication that one can be more true to oneself as a descendent of Scythians/Slavs/Sarmatians/Aryans by leaving a religion started by a Jew and becoming a Buddhist is very odd, given that Christianity has been focused on Europe, cultivated and developed in Europe for most of its existence, while Buddhism has been mixed up with Asia for thousands of years.

    I found this rant to be largely true (albeit it takes a Western Christian POV), hopefully you are not offended, as it is most critical of some Westerners’ (such as Thulean Friend) turn to Hinduism and doesn’t explicitly mention Buddhism:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-last-debate/#comment-4242365

    And here we go again, back to the real problem of why it is that twits from Schopenhauer, to Guenon to you, insist that plain old Western Christianity is too this, and too that. It’s too archaic I tell you. No, wait, it’s too modernist. It’s too antisemitic and the real driver of the Holocaust. Or else, no, it’s a vehicle of Judaic supremacy. Can’t they make up their minds? No, the real problem here is what Scruton called oikophobia. This notion that the truth must be found off in the East somewhere, be it in some ashram in Calcutta or some monastery on Mt. Athos. Whereas, it’s the Western Christians who, after they themselves embraced a faith out from way-off Jerusalem and Athens, decided that henceforth, that was as far East as they would need to go, and from then on they unapologetically made that faith their very own, to the extent that Christianity (or at least Roman Catholicism in your case) and the West became intrinsically linked for better and worse, as we continue to see whenever someone sets out to trash the West.

    That’s why Schopenhauer kept yammering about that all that compassion he claimed could be found in the Vedas, when in fact, when it comes to compassion, the Sermon on the Mount has a good bit more of it than, say, the Bhagavad Gita (a text which emphasizes detachment above all else and belittles him who would wallow in compassion). That’s why Nietzsche used the PR trick of putting his innovations into the mouth of an Eastern sage like Zoroaster/Zarathustra, and why Guenon and his followers sought refuge from cold Western rationalism in Sufi mysticism (at about the same time that oikophobes like Pickthall were assuring us the Quran was superior to the Bible precisely because it contained no miracles, and tendentiously translated the former to impose his take onto it). That’s why trippy hippies from Madame Blavatsky to the Beatles sought refuge in theosophy and yoga and yogis. Really, it has a good deal to do with why Boas and his disciple Margaret Mead sought to enlighten us to the sexual mores of Polynesian societies. Too many Western/Christian hangups about sex. Ah, those poor benighted Christians/Westerners — they can’t seem to get anything right, to the extent that we now have to find the ultimate source of meaning from those who defecate in the streets and burn widows.

  183. Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting?

    The Romans were a great people – but didn’t the Germanic admixture plus the Near Eastern mixture make the northern Italians something new and exciting? Let’s be honest, the Romans could never have produced the art of the Rennaissance. Like today’s Chinese, they were great engineers and builders of public works, not artists or thinkers.

    I’m not sure how significant the Germanic admixture was in Italy. My understanding is that the fall of the Roman Empire led to a decline in “exotic” ancestry there, probably because cities were demographic sinks.

    I would modify your statement about the Romans by saying say they were excellent at systematizing(which poor thinkers will not do well). But they were not very inventive.

    European nations are all wonderful and great – but hasn’t the old civilization exhausted itself?

    It depends what you mean. Right now western countries are in a state of demographic and cultural decline. You could call that civilizational exhaustion. On the other hand, if you mean to ask have the ideas of European civilization exhausted themselves, I would say no. For example, evolutionary theory has yet to have its day in the sun in terms of its application to humanity. Ideas like eugenics went out of fashion after WW2, and even formulating certain hypotheses about for example group differences is controversial. The idea of natural selection is under 200 years old, the evolutionary synthesis is less than 100 years old, and high throughput sequencing is a little over 20 years old. The field is really only just getting started.

    I don’t see much evidence that greater race mixing is solving 21st century man’s problems. One could for example posit that the Classical tradition in music had exhausted itself by the second half of the 20th century. Whether one accepts that idea or not, what I don’t see is anything offered by anyone else that even approximates the greatness of western classical music. So even if we accept the premise that western civilization has exhausted itself, it does not follow that mixing with people from elsewhere will improve anything. My view is that much of the cultural agglomeration that is occurring is destroying most of what is interesting about people around the world and that it is contributing to greater atomization, consumerism, etc.

    Most of what I see in countries outside of the west is just copying. Everyone has the same architecture, same music, same declining fertility as the economy grows, etc. China’s modernization project for example is essentially just taking advantage of the larger scale of China’s population to beat the West at its own game. So they can construct ugly buildings more quickly than Western countries can.

    Cultures don’t necessarily need large scale immigration of newcomers to change drastically. Isolation is a powerful driver of cultural development. Note that most(if not all) of what we consider special about ancient Greece came after the Greek Dark Ages. Prior to the Greek Dark Ages you had a culture more uniform and interconnected with the near East. This was followed by a period with more varied cultural forms and more isolation from the outside world. This would be followed by new cultural syntheses, different from the old Mycenaean civilization.

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    I would make the opposite argument. Just for a handful of examples, Madagascar, the Canary Islands, Central Asia, Latin America, the Caribbean, South Africa(cape Coloureds), all have various “interesting” mixtures. But I wouldn’t these peoples have had an inordinately high amount of contributions. I think the Nordic phenotype is more worthy of preservation.

    Why is this to be so feared? Moreover, isn’t this the usual pattern for Europe? Breakdown followed by reconstitution along new-but-different lines with a big mixture of new races?

    If you go back far enough, the people in Europe will look very different from the people there today. Does it follow from this observation that some particular future genetic change is necessary or good? Nope.

    Of course, for a true new race to emerge in Europe at some point immigration would have to stop, and a great process of assimilation take place.

    The Enlightenment elite that rules the West aims for the creation of a uniform type of man that lives his life according to reason. He has no innate characteristics and no inherited qualities. He is the epitome of John Locke’s Blank Slate and can be shaped entirely by reason.

    This is a necessary corollary to the Enlightenment belief that mankind can be infinitely shaped by reason – innate characteristics, inherited dispositions, are an intolerable restrictions on this ambitious project.

    For mankind to take charge of his destiny, innate characteristics cannot exist. He must be a blank slate up in which reason can write.

    But such an ambition is pure hubris – mankind cannot take charge of his destiny through reason and is limited by inherited characteristics. This project is bound to fail.

    Since the creation of a uniform man with no inherited disposition, the central project of the Western elites, is bound to fail, what will happen instead is the emergence of a new race with a new particular character.

    I don’t see any need for a new particular character in Western man. The Romantic movement in Europe was about as radical an attack on Enlightenment values as can be articulated. Its ideas are out of fashion, but they do not have to remain so. Also John Locke’s idea of the blank slate is contradicted by evolutionary theory. The West has more than enough ammunition with which to destroy these ideas without having to look for outside input.

  184. AltanBakshi says

    Again you guys are engaging in this utterly pointless debate.

    Globally, Islam is growing faster than Christianity but Christianity is also growing. Islam’s birth rate is declining. If you speak of replacement of godless childless Europeans, it will eventually be of both Europeans and Arabs by Christian sub-Saharans (there are more Christians than Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa).

    Maybe Christianity is still strong in USA, but in the Western Europe it’s already less visible than Islam, in practice it’s a marginal religion mainly followed by old and dying people, vast majority of Western Europeans don’t feel any connection with it anymore, in my knowledge only in Italy and Austria it still has some energy left, and for how long? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not celebrating the disappearance of Christianity, but situation is what it is.

    Whereas, it’s the Western Christians who, after they themselves embraced a faith out from way-off Jerusalem and Athens, decided that henceforth, that was as far East as they would need to go

    No one says that their decision is final for all their descendents? Or why it should be so? If they would, because of their own free volition, go to Jerusalem, why it’s wrong for other Western Europeans to go somewhere else by their own free will?

    Thulean Friend is a follower of Hindu traditions, really? Hey TF can you tell what school or tradition you are following? Advainta, or maybe you are a Vaishnavite?

    A very foreign faith, alien to Europeans.

    Our spiritual leader was openly a friend to such people as “far right leader” Jörg Haider or former member of SS like Heinrich Harrier and he openly said that Germany is a German country and that Europe belongs to Europeans.

    https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/tibets-spiritual-leader-dalai-lama-places-a-sache-arround-the-neck-of-picture-id57604691?s=612×612

    https://imgl.krone.at/scaled/1066647/v72006e/schema_org_16_9.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4f/0e/96/4f0e96f9267a833182f6f70b12e79ee3.jpg

    So AP who is more European in spirit? Your princes of church who are welcoming the demographical transition of Europe? Who follow the party line of progressive elites, or the men of our Aryan Monastic Sangha who do not fear to speak their minds?

    https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/d9af4588ba1d493ba0fb27757e6babac_18.jpeg?resize=770%2C513

    (My criticism is not targeted against Christianity, only against Catholic Church for there is a true European church, the One Holy and Apostolic Orthodox Church)

  185. Christianity itself is an Eastern spiritual tradition. Western European people had adopted and to some extent adapted it to their needs, but it was born in the East. But the discussion of any belief system should not be about it being is of East or West, not about cultural sude of the traditions, not about races and colours of skin or IQ. This is all irrelevant.

    It is about the right understanding of what we humans are, and about what this world of ours is. It is about the right attitude to develop facing this world. And about the right practice to achieve. It is about the right goal for this practice.

    All human beings are imperfect, they are born independently of their own will, they live conditioned lives full of stress, they age and they die. This is where the reflection should start: what are we as human beings to do of this stressful, conditioned and impermanent existence. And once one started this reflection, then one should fearlessly pursue it to the very end without clinging to race, caste, gender, traditions of one’s ancestors and so on and so forth.

    When I discuss the current state of Christianity, I am not celebrating its demise in Europe and MENA. On the opposite, I wish it was stronger because for all that I see as flawed in the Christian faith, I still consider it as way superior compared to its Abrahamic spiritual siblings: Judaism and Islam.

    When I go to Moscow, I always visit the Church where I was baptized, I spend time there and donate what I can afford for its restauration and maintenance. I wish it to stand strong and beautiful for hundreds of years. When I decry the destruction and erasure of the Balto – Slavic old pagan faith it is because I have no doubt in my mind that it had beautiful aspects about it and might have learned us how to be better and stronger sons of our own people.

    But my preferences and emotions regarding these existing and lost belief systems are irrelevant. What is relevant, is what brings me closer to what I feel as Real and True.

  186. So AP who is more European in spirit? Your princes of church who are welcoming the demographical transition of Europe? Who follow the party line of progressive elites, or the men of our Aryan Monastic Sangha who do not fear to speak their minds?

    This is the difference between a foreign ally and friend, versus a native traitor. The foreigner is a better person, but still an alien.

  187. You understand that our ancestors who converted to Christian faith were themselves traitors to a thousand years old native tradition ? They betrayed their people and often contributed to a foreign conquest. The tradition was most probably similar to a primitive form of Hinduism, Celtic religion and Hellenic/Roman paganism therefore it had the potential needed to evolve into very interesting belief systems with a complex mythological and philosophical content. It was killed after thousands of years of existence and hundreds of years of resistance to the overtake by an alien Eastern religion. It was killed in part because the elites found it profitable to betray and defect.

  188. Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia

    If you go with Sri Lankan Buddhist traditions you have something that has developed in an Aryan milieu, if you go by language.

    I’ve heard of a few German monks who went there, but I doubt very much that this was one of their main motivating factors.

  189. In fact Buddhism adapted everywhere to influence and transform in depth the local culture. Buddhism could relatively easily include Jesus Christ and Virgin Mary into its pantheon of Bodhisattvas. Some say that the female representation of Avalokita Bodhisattva in China was directly impacted by the Nestorian Christian tradition.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingjiao_Documents

  190. Better to live with a foreign friend than with a traitor brother.

    Something like an African Pope in the near future is just a matter of time…

  191. Maybe (Islam does this as far as Christ is concerned), the German monk I was thinking of did not:

    When passing through Tamil areas, he would sometimes stay with Christian priests. He said they treated him very well. He would sometimes talk to them about mettā and dāna (loving-kindness and generosity) and other things common to both religions. Beyond that he did not go, ‘That is all I can say’, he would say. However, when there was both a Christian and a Buddhist place, he would choose the Buddhist place though he was less well treated there.

    ven-nyanavimala.buddhasasana.net/texts/12-glimpses-of-ven-nyananvimala.htm

  192. Aryan was originally an ethnic self moniker for the horse riding Indo-European or Indo-Iranian people of Central Asian steppes, about 4000 years ago, they were distinct from the ancestors of Greek, Spanish, Anglos, Germans etc. After they invaded and conquered the Iranian plateau and Indo-Gangetic plain, the Aryan got a new meaning about 3000 years ago, a spiritual meaning.

    Aryan as used Nazis is a false appropriation of the term, without its traditional spiritual connotations. There are no pure Ancient Aryans left, but people of Eastern Europe, Central Asia, Greater Iran and Northern India are partially their offspring.

  193. You understand that our ancestors who converted to Christian faith were themselves traitors to a thousand years old native tradition

    They upgraded their lands and civilisations physically and morally by adopting and assimilating the Christian faith. This is totally different from, for example, Merkel letting in a flood of outsiders.

    The tradition was most probably similar to a primitive form of Hinduism, Celtic religion and Hellenic/Roman paganism therefore it had the potential needed to evolve into very interesting

    This is true. Although it is sad that the details have been lost, and fascinating to glimpse an alternative universe with a highly developed nativist Slavic civilization:

    1. Christendom has been better than India, so likely what would have eventually developed would have been worse than what we got. Has Hinduism produced a Dostoyevsky? A Bach? Etc.

    2. Adopting Christianity probably meant a leap ahead of hundreds of years if not more in development. Hundreds of years of less barbarism (forget the Romantic myths, tribal life is rather brutal)

  194. AltanBakshi says

    1. Christendom has been better than India, so likely what would have eventually developed would have been worse than what we got. Has Hinduism produced a Dostoyevsky? A Bach? Etc.

    Though I think that European Classical Music is the highest level of music ever produced, one’s taste in arts and literature are inherently subjective matters, Indians have no lack of great poets or writers. Names like Tagore or Valmiki are as great as any of the greatest European authors.

    2. Adopting Christianity probably meant a leap ahead of hundreds of years if not more in development. Hundreds of years of less barbarism (forget the Romantic myths, tribal life is rather brutal)

    England, Ireland, Scotland, France, Italy and Germany were more prone to have violent periods of warfare during the years 600-1800 than China, Japan, Vietnam or Korea. You know what was common for these lands? None of them started to believe that there is an Absolute and Highest power of universe, unlike Hindus, Muslims and Christians. Will of Heaven is more of an abstraction of nature’s propensity for an order, than some ultimate God with a personality and sovereignty over all Creation.

  195. AltanBakshi says

    Oh yes, Ultima Thule, Uttarakuru and Hyperborea are just different names for the original homeland of Aryans! Vaishravana who is extremely important figure in Buddhism, is their king. He is the Guardian of the North and he protects Vinaya and people with high level of ethics. Maybe the most important worldly protector in Buddhism, he was extremely important for Samurais and Mongols of the past.

    https://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/2/4/4/24467.jpg

    https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/bhive-jp/media/yabai/article/3213/1024px-Todaiji13s4592.jpg

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bishamonten_(Vaishravana),_Guardian_King_of_the_North,_Japan,_Edo_period,_1615-1700_AD,_colors_and_gold_on_wood_-_Asian_Art_Museum_of_San_Francisco_-_DSC01458.JPG

  196. AltanBakshi says

    Btw Vaishravana was especially revered in the Kingdom of Khotan, the last Scythian polity of Central Asia, which fell against genocidal Muslims in the year 1006, after three centuries of valiant struggle, it is said that his dress as depicted in Asian paintings is same as the military dress of the Khotanese soldiers.

    https://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/1/4/4/144.jpg

  197. Christianity itself is an Eastern spiritual tradition.

    It is universal but had roots in the Middle East, in a place of mixed Hellenistic (European) and Judaic (Semitic) influences. There was probably good reason for God’s Son to be born at that place and that time.

    Western European people had adopted and to some extent adapted it to their needs, but it was born in the East.

    Sure. Western Europeans and Western Christianity “grew up” together, they cannot be separated, just as Russians and their brilliant culture cannot be separated from Orthodoxy.

    When I discuss the current state of Christianity, I am not celebrating its demise in Europe and MENA. On the opposite, I wish it was stronger because for all that I see as flawed in the Christian faith, I still consider it as way superior compared to its Abrahamic spiritual siblings: Judaism and Islam.

    Thank you. I agree.

    When I decry the destruction and erasure of the Balto – Slavic old pagan faith it is because I have no doubt in my mind that it had beautiful aspects about it and might have learned us how to be better and stronger sons of our own people.

    I’m sure it did. But given the performance of its brother-faith in India, we are probably better off for having upgraded to the Christian faith and grown with it, rather than having remained pagans.

  198. You really believe that these people were dumber than some ancient desert-dwelling Semites?

    God’s Son wasn’t born among the “Trypillians.” Although I agree that they made beautiful pottery. It is too bad that before the upgrade Jesuits did not exist to come and record their stories for posterity.

    That the religion of their descendants was irredeemably backward?

    It was, compared to that given by the Greeks. The theology of the pagan Slavs wasn’t written down, but it was likely similar to that of illiterate Aryan folk, perhaps the Kalashi people are a model. Now compare that to the works of Christian thinkers of those times. Compare the decorated poles with the beautiful and complex Orthodox Churches with their iconography, that replaced the etched poles within mere decades. Compare the primitive earthen dwellings with the Christian cities. Etc.

    You will claim that the Slavic pagans needed to be given a chance. Ok – as I wrote, this would have meant a few more centuries of dark barbarism* at least, before a higher totally native civilization rose up. And what would it have looked like? Something like India, with colder climate? Are Indian architecture, cities etc. as nice as those of European Christendom? Christianity’s approach toward nature meant an explosion of technological progress (this has already been discussed). So forget about Christian Europe’s technological marvels and its effect on standard of living. Christ-less Slavic lands would have perhaps been like southern India c. 600 in the year 2000, only with harsher weather. And about the same in another thousand years after that. And so on. For Indian civilization is ancient and despite the thousands of years head start it was rather stable, or stagnant.

    And this assumes that somehow Islam would not have converted the Slavs, in the absence of Christianity. Because the faith of pagan tribes inevitably falls to that of Christianity or its worse Islamic cousin. The pagans wanted something better. After some initial resistance their children did not want to go back to their primitive tribal lives. I don’t think anyone of us really would.

    *And let’s not romanticize this. Tribal people do lead rather short and brutal lives of stupid revenge warfare, vendettas, human sacrifice, etc. My pre-Christian Rus ancestors would spend their time pillaging the Eastern Slav settlements and selling some of the victims as slaves to the Arabs and Persians. Just another day at the office. Despite internecine wars of the Rus princes, Christian Rus of the 11th century was more humane and pleasant than were those lands in the 9th century.

    https://ourworldindata.org/ethnographic-and-archaeological-evidence-on-violent-deaths

    Graves in ancient Ukraine (Volos’ke, (Ukraine), ‘Epipalaeolithic’; ca. 7500 BCE) showed 22% of people died by violence. In Northern India in 850 BC (when the area was settled by Aryans) it was 30%.

    The levels of violence in prehistoric times (archeological evidence) and in non-state societies (ethnographic evidence) was much higher than in modern state societies and in the world today…

    Charts show that death rates from violence in archeological sites varied widely by tribe, from 60% among 14th century Crow Indians in South Dakota to less than 5% among pre-contact natives in California and ancient tribals in Algeria. But the average was around 22% of people dying through violence.

    Modern tribes show similar rates, ranging from 56% dying through violence among Waorani natives in the Amazon to 4% in northern Australia. Average is probably around 25%.

    So essentially if you are a primitive person in a hunter-gatherer society you have between a 1 in 5 and 1 in 4 chance of being killed by another person.

    In contrast, death rate from violence in 17th century Western Europe was 2%, despite the 30 Years War in the beginning part of that century (by far most of Germany’s largescale population loss occurred due to famine, disease and migration rather than killings).

  199. I agree that Christianity pacified people, I might write that it domesticated them. Turned wolves into sheep. But I am not certain it was a good thing, for there is the aspect of selecting the strong among the population to breed and ensuring that the fittest rule the weak.

    Besides, Hellenic Mediterranean Basin was not such a violent place despite it being Pagan. And of course Buddhist societies were quite peaceful, despite often having warlike warrior castes. I would also think that if we remove the foreign invasions, the great Hindustani empires ensured a relatively peaceful living and a better standard of life than early medieval European societies. We also should note the relative tolerance of the Pagan religious practices for differing spiritual perspectives.

    I am also strongly in disagreement with your assessment of the Indian culture and architecture. Despite being by no means someone who idealises India, I still must underscore that in the seventeen century Indian economic output was higher than the output of European countries and Indian architecture produced this:

    https://cdn.britannica.com/86/170586-050-AB7FEFAE/Taj-Mahal-Agra-India.jpg

    https://c8.alamy.com/compfr/b070hg/agra-fort-rouge-le-khas-mahal-et-anguri-bagh-b070hg.jpg

    But even at the times of ancient Greece, Indian culture had its great Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas, its great poems and of course it had the Buddhadharma:

    https://www.adotrip.com/public/images/areas/5f04898d702e7-Ajanta%20Caves%20Trip.jpg

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TX16Czc0Klo/hqdefault.jpg

    But even before that, the (proto)Aryan Sintashta Arkaim culture had nothing to be ashamed of as a Bronze Age society:

    https://www.heritagedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/arkiam-scaled.jpg

    But as I wrote above; if you believe that these people were inherently inferior to some desert-dwelling ancient Semitic nomads, then you have a strongly ingrained cultural and spiritual inferiority complex.

    These would have been the people God chose to incarnate among them?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shasu

    If you believe that, then all I have to say is what the great Kievan prince Sviatoslav Igorevich told before me : “Вера христова юродство еси.”

  200. AltanBakshi says

    Sure. Western Europeans and Western Christianity “grew up” together, they cannot be separated, just as Russians and their brilliant culture cannot be separated from Orthodoxy.

    Unbelievably Jewish logic! Your logic is same as the one employed by the Jews, that if they would lose their religion they would lose their existence, did Persians disappear when Zoroastrianism withered away? Did Hellenes fade away from existence when Greek Pagan altars and cults were abandoned? Did Japanese stop being Japanese when they started to worship Buddha? All my examples are well thought, in every one of these cultures there were people who thought like you, but people can and will continue no matter what their faith is.

    It is universal but had roots in the Middle East, in a place of mixed Hellenistic (European) and Judaic (Semitic) influences. There was probably good reason for God’s Son to be born at that place and that time.

    It’s anachronistic to claim that Hellenism was somehow European during the classical times, it’s well known that ancient Greeks felt more kinship with inhabitants of Syria and Egypt than with people of Germania and Gaullia.

  201. AltanBakshi says

    Though I must acknowledge that it would pain me horribly if Mongols and Tibetans would convert from Buddhism to some other religion, so I understand AP your position, but we must be intellectually honest.

  202. AltanBakshi says

    You are right about the Arian part, but Zoroastrian Persians thought that Hindu Devas were demons. They split already in Turan. Did you know about the Arkaim Sintashta culture and the Bactria Margiana culture? Both were Aryan

    False, the split happened after migration to Indian subcontinent and Iranian plateau. In Rig Veda or in Mahayana Sutras Ashuras are not necessarily evil creatures, unlike in modern Hinduism, in which they are always evil and demonic. In Buddhist stories they are more like Titans, weaker and more aggressive than gods, often malevolent, sometimes neutral and sometimes even followers of Buddha’s Dharma. Yes some worldly protectors of Dharma are Asuras.

    And even bigger falsehood, BMAC was not Aryan, though Aryans later conquered then and mixed with them, BMAC people had no Yamnaya ancestry unlike people of Andronovo and Sintashta, they probably looked like most Middle Eastern looking Iranians of modern era, in other words they looked like Kurds.

  203. Bashibuzuk says

    Yamnaya ancestry unlike people of Andronovo and Sintashta

    Arkaim Sintashta people were mainly Corded Ware. They had some Yamnaya admixture due to them assimilating the local populations who had both Yamnaya and Okunevo ancestry.

    In Central Asia, Yamnaya people were the direct ancestors of Afanasievo Culture, which precedes Arkaim Sintashta by nearly 1000 years. Afanasievo was replaced by the paleo-Siberian/Altaic Okunevo Culture which in turn got conquered by the Corded Ware folks migrating from the West. The Corded Ware migration might have something to do with the Bell Beaker folks exterminating the Corded Ware folks in Central Europe. The Corded Ware folks moved further and further East until they reached the Arkaim Sintashta territory.

    You are correct about founders of BAMAC being mostly Middle Eastern with perhaps a local admixture. They were probably related to Sumerians with possibly some Elamite influence.

    What I was (clumsily) trying to describe is that Indus Valley conquered by Aryans and BAMAC conquered by Aryans both became Aryan civilizations. The former produced Vedic Aryans, the latter the Avestan Aryans. That’s when their cultures and religions split between Hinduism and Zoroastrianism.

    Those Aryans who stayed in the Turanian steppes kept their traditional religious outlook which probably included both proto-Zoroastrian elements and shamanism. I think early Bön, prior to its interaction with Buddhism would qualify as a proxy for their belief system. Those are the people who later were called Scythians by the Greeks.

  204. I agree with you in the narrow historical sense: Christianity helped expose backwards cultures to more literate, already Christianized ones at a faster rate. And Protestantism was superior to both Catholicism and Orthodoxy at promoting human capital accumulation (emphasis on individual salvation promoted literacy).

    That said, wrt India, you need to adjust for average IQ and many other factors.

    Ancient Greeks, not monotheistic Israelites, produced the most impressive flowing of scientific and artistic accomplishment prior to the Renaissance.

    If you go down this What If route, you also need to consider that Christianity was anti-intellectual for the first millennium of its existence. Christians would have been the Pentecostals of their day.

  205. I agree that Christianity pacified people, I might write that it domesticated them. Turned wolves into sheep. But I am not certain it was a good thing

    You think it’s better to be a wolf than a sheep to your neighbors or to the villagers down the river? Guess what, communism successfully de-Christianized Russia to the extent that there were plenty of wolves around at its end. How was that? Well, it made Russians of that time “tougher” I guess. But before Christianity it was even worse of course – about 1 in 5 people died by violence.

    Besides, Hellenic Mediterranean Basin was not such a violent place despite it being Pagan

    If one discounts the entertainment of gladiator combat or people being ripped apart by hungry animals. Probably the violence rate was lower than among tribals. Remember, you proposed that Northern Europe would have persisted in its savage state (presumably for a few centuries) before eventually developing its own civilization.

    the great Hindustani empires ensured a relatively peaceful living and a better standard of life than early medieval European societies

    Sure, they had a long head start, in early medieval times Europeans were still not far from the times of pagan savages. I doubt that by the time of the high Middle Ages Europe was behind though.

    I am also strongly in disagreement with your assessment of the Indian culture and architecture. Despite being by no means someone who idealises India, I still must underscore that in the seventeen century Indian economic output was higher than the output of European countries and Indian architecture produced this

    Taj Mahal was certainly impressive but in terms of architecture and visual arts would it compare to the contemporaneous Saint Peters Basilica?

    https://previews.123rf.com/images/boggy22/boggy221405/boggy22140500357/27964335-people-at-the-interior-of-the-saint-peter-cathedral-in-vatican-at-july-19-2013-saint-peter-s-basilic.jpg

    And those Indian palaces do not really compare to Versailles or Hermitage.

    And there are numerous monuments throughout Christendom that surpass ones in India. The Christians even built beautiful churches like this one in Mexico:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/09/89/31/0989310d93561378300b3ab346629f8a.jpg

    And then there are the Christian towns, the market squares of Krakow or Riga or countless other towns, or even small ones like this one in Austria:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Tirol_Hall_02.jpg

    And then there is the classical music, the visual representation of people, perhaps poetry and literature are harder to judge objectively. Overall I would not compare the fruits of Indian civilization to those of European Christendom.

  206. Bashibuzuk says

    Overall I would not compare the fruits of Indian civilization to those of European Christendom.

    I see that you are very Eurocentric and you cannot imagine Europe without Christendom. In the coming decades we will see a significant decrease, perhaps a downfall of the European civilization. This downfall is certainly the result of many different factors. My personal and subjective opinion is that this downfall is caused in part by the loss of roots and identity among Europeans. This loss started when they chose to follow alien and exotic spiritual traditions. It started with their mass conversion to Christianity.

  207. AltanBakshi says

    …and accept reality as it is, not how we wish it to be.

  208. I see that you are very Eurocentric and you cannot imagine Europe without Christendom

    I am aware of Europe before and Europe during Christendom. No one has achieved the level of technological mastery, artistic beauty and excellence, compassion, and global political/military dominance (as a complete package) as had European Christendom.

    In the coming decades we will see a significant decrease, perhaps a downfall of the European civilization

    European civilization expanded to include most of the Americas and Australia/New Zealand. The Western part of the original homeland may become about a third Arab/Muslim ( these guys are themselves declining, they are just a generation behind so they will still expand for a bit). This is not pleasant but is not a downfall.

    My personal and subjective opinion is that this downfall is caused in part by the loss of roots and identity among Europeans. This loss started when they chose to follow alien and exotic spiritual traditions. It started with their mass conversion to Christianity.

    Do you also believe Buddhism is alien for the non Indo- Europeans such as Tibetans, Chinese, Thais etc. who adopted it? I agree with Altan that such things are universal. Christ came to all for all, Europe has flourished with Him.

  209. Ancient Greeks, not monotheistic Israelites, produced the most impressive flowing of scientific and artistic accomplishment prior to the Renaissance.

    Christianity > Judaism.

    If you go down this What If route, you also need to consider that Christianity was anti-intellectual for the first millennium of its existence

    Not really. Byzantium was a literate sophisticated society (this was inherited from pre-Christian times, I know, but Christianity did not get in the way) and adoption of Christianity brought widespread literacy to Rus. The Western barbarians, too, became intellectual under Christ. Modern Pentecostals and similar heretics in their dismissal of science are not traditional Christians.

  210. Unbelievably Jewish logic! Your logic is same as the one employed by the Jews, that if they would lose their religion they would lose their existence, did Persians disappear when Zoroastrianism withered away? Did Hellenes fade away from existence when Greek Pagan altars and cults were abandoned? Did Japanese stop being Japanese when they started to worship Buddha?

    I agree with and and think you misunderstood my point. Badhibuzuk was the one using what you would call “Jewish logic.” My point was simply that Europe and Russia in their greatness cannot be separated from their Christianity, they have been fused throughout their development.

  211. Bashibuzuk says

    Do you also believe Buddhism is alien for the non Indo- Europeans such as Tibetans, Chinese, Thais etc. who adopted it?

    Buddhism adapts to any given culture by integrating its spiritual traditions into its own. Christianity erases the native spiritual traditions. Both are universal, but one is more totalitarian. As I wrote above, Buddhism could easily integrate Christian spiritual practices and Christ himself. OTOH, Christianity cannot integrate Buddhadharma.

  212. Bashibuzuk says

    Bashibuzuk was the one using what you would call “Jewish logic.”

    I have used the traditional gentile logic where every human culture had the right, perhaps even the obligation to preserve and develop its ancestral spiritual inheritance. It is very unfortunate that today this logic has been abandoned by most Gentiles and is mostly kept among the Israelites. Christ with his message of “no Greek and Scythian ” remaining when all become Christians was in fact the first globalist, which of course is natural for a son of poor emigrants growing up in a multinational and multicultural metropolis (Alexandria in first century AD). He was woke and his religion was a destructive cult directed against traditional cultural and spiritual identities of that period.

  213. That said, wrt India, you need to adjust for average IQ and many other factors.

    I suspect that culture can probably affect genetic IQ. Ashkenazi Jews are an extreme example, but the cultural changes produced by Christianity may have selected for greater success by people with increased inherent abstract thinking ability. Until fairly recently 100-150 years ago, depending on country) smarter Europeans had larger families. Rewards in pre-Christian tribal times as in modern tribal areas might have gone more to stronger and more daring or violent folk.

    When ancient Romans thought of pre-Christian Northern Europeans as brave and noble, but dim, they might not have been wrong. By the 16th century there might have been a different genetic profile for the people living in those lands. India’s Hinduism may contribute to its IQ profile by encouraging different traits in the various segregated castes (brilliant Brahmins, dim masses).

  214. AltanBakshi says

    Can Jewish greatness be separated from their religion? Would they still be intelligent and productive if they would convert to Christianity or Buddhism? Please I want to know your answer.

    Christianity is a great religion and has clearly been beneficial to most of its adherents, but it’s not the end point of history, Christ’s kingdom is not from this world, and as St. Augustine clearly stated in his De Civitate Dei, how Earthly kingdom with its material achievements and Heavenly Kingdom with its eternal life are two distinct realms, and Christian is first of all the citizen of the Heavenly Civitas, material things come and go, civilizations rise and fall, but Christ’s Kingdom is eternal, beyond time and place. I am a great fan and supporter of Christianity, though I don’t agree with every Christian viewpoint, or always understand their logic, but I believe that genuine Christians have good motivations and their hearts are pure, they do not mean harm for any man, as long as they are not attacked. My “dhimmitude” towards Christianity is so great that from my whole heart I would support if charter of UN or European constitution would begin by words, “Our laws are based on Christ’s teaching,” or something similar. Anyway I wouldn’t be surprised if St- Augustine would have debunked your logic as a heresy! Material gains as a proof of Christ’s greatness? Gold and glitter, like whore’s makeup as a proof of God’s greatness. Magna Mater’s cultists(Cybele) probably had quite blingy sanctuaries in the Carthage of the time of St. Augustine. What about the sense of tight knitted community, helping of the poor, marital fidelity, respect of elders?

    There are strange parallels and similarities with the modern LBGTIQ+ cult and the cult of Cybele. When Rome started to decay the foreign cult of Great Mother or goddess Cybele grew in popularity, there were huge parades where his priests, the Galli, who were mutilated men, dressed in female clothes, danced ecstatically, shaked their limbs and so on. Romans of the Republic saw her cult as dangerous, and there was a law that prohibited Roman citizens to partake in her celebrations and rites, but later Romans got lax and such laws were not followed anymore. Clearly she is alive and well, dangerous as ever…

  215. There is a wonderful essay in Orthodox theologian Hart’s Atheist Delusions about this. But yes, Christ was revolutionary, He liberated mankind and this is reflected in the sheer brilliance, beauty, compassion and power of Christian civilization. It was creative, not destructive as in the case of wokeness. Slavic poles and crude Aztec pyramids alike, replaced by beautiful cathedrals. Cruel worship of strength replaced by love and mercy, yet resulting in strength the world had never before seen as the heirs and children if God took possession of the world not because they were motivated by greed (yes there was some of that too) but by love also.

  216. AltanBakshi says

    Japanese Kamis, Burmese Nats, Vedic Gods, Chinese Taoist Deities, Mongolian Tengris, Tibetan Spirits and so on and so on are part of our religion, and mostly without problems, except if those entities demand blood sacrifices, then its more complicated. Even some gods of Hellenic pantheon are part of our religion, like Herakles/Hercules.

    https://classicalstudies.org/annual-meeting/150/abstract/heraklesvajrapani-companion-buddha

    His cult is well alive, he is one the most popular Bodhisattvas and Dharma protectors, though he is commonly known by his Sanskrit name Vajrapani. If Buddhism would have met with Slavic Paganism we would have incorporated their pantheon with ours, Slavic traditions and rites would still live on, even Iranian deities and demons still live with us, some are quite popular.

  217. AltanBakshi says

    I have understood that you very much respect Oswald Spengler’s philosophy?

    “Christian theology is the grandmother of Bolshevism.”

    -Oswald Spengler

    What about now?

  218. He had some good insights but I wouldn’t consider him to be infallible. I think he was an atheist. Bolshevism is obviously a Christian heresy, he was right here.

  219. Bashibuzuk says

    Bolshevism is obviously a Christian heresy, he was right here.

    Christianity is itself a Hellenistic syncretic heresy of Judaism. And indeed the Protestant egalitarian Anabaptist violent sects of the Religious Wars era were directly derived from the reformist message of the Christian Gospels. This message was diluted and tamed into the Catholic Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholicism, only to resurface under the form of the Münster Rebellion and the radical Levellers of the English Civil War.

    And when it was again suppressed (for it had to be suppressed for society to survive), it resurfaced again under the garb of utopian Masonic Socialism evolving into Communism and leading to the near annihilation of the Russian Orthodox Church and disaffection with Roman Catholicism.

    Today the Cultural Marxism, derived from the early Bolshevik delusions, is used by the globalized elites to mind-kill the Western middle class. This dialectics of Christ and Antichrist is the end result of Christian teleology in which the World must be destroyed for the “Elect” to be saved.

    Knyaz’ Stanislav was right: this is indeed sheer foolishness. And just like a bipolar person experiences a “high” before going “down”, the European Civilization, inoculated with this dialectical mind-warping theological system has experienced a cultural boom leading to its inevitable bust.

    Christ said that: “you will know them by their fruits”. The fruits of Christendom are bittersweet and somewhat indigestible for the Aryan mind. OTOH, our Aryan ancestors were not in a hurry to reform everything into oblivion. They accumulated wisdom that lead to survival of their kin and respect for their ancestors, they grew their fruits slowly from well watered native roots. And the fruits produced by their Tree of Life would have been marvelous, if not for the Christian axe cutting the Tree itself and modern World burning it into ashes.

    Below is a traditional Northern Russian embroidery used until the 1930ies, when the Communism banned it because it looked suspicious and smacked of “Fascism”.

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/matveychev_oleg/27303223/7266376/7266376_900.jpg

    This is the symbol of our ancestry for the last 7000 years, we should remember that and be proud of it.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e2/4b/33/e24b33b38e2e6a72e86419a16abb13d9.jpg

    Until we reach the Sky and become Light itself!

  220. Well, I agree that Christian conversion was good for primitive peoples outside the Roman Empire because it exposed them to advanced literate cultures faster and more intensely.

    The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I’m not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity).

    Modern Pentecostals and similar heretics in their dismissal of science are not traditional Christians.

    5C Pentecostals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

    Early Christians were the original Bioleninists, in modern NRx parlance.

    My own guess FWIW was that Christianity was deeply destructive until around 6C, then increasingly turning positive, first helping preserve what remained of post-Roman civilization (thanks in large part to being a reservoir for what remained of Europe’s human capital), then expand it.

    … but the cultural changes produced by Christianity may have selected for greater success by people with increased inherent abstract thinking ability.

    Plausible. Ed Dutton and Michael Woodley have some interesting ideas about the uniquely pro-eugenic effects of Christianity.

    OTOH, Finland, which Christianized last in Europe (along with Lithuania), doesn’t exactly have a low IQ.

    OTOH OTOH, not likely that differences of a mere few hundred years would have made a cardinal difference.

  221. Christianity is itself a Hellenistic syncretic heresy of Judaism

    Correct. Christianity, a Hellenistic syncretic heresy of Judaism, is great and an improvement over what came before, whereas Bolshevism, a heresy of Christianity, is evil. As evidenced by the effect of each on their adherents’ personal and sociocultural developments in morality, art, power.

    Knyaz’ Stanislav was right: this is indeed sheer foolishness. And just like a bipolar person experiences a “high” before going “down”, the European Civilization, inoculated with this dialectical mind-warping theological system has experienced a cultural boom leading to its inevitable bust.

    Christ said that: “you will know them by their fruits”. The fruits of Christendom are bittersweet

    Archeological excavations tell us that pagan ancient Ukraine has a death rate by violence of approximately 20%. Even in the 1930s the Bolsheviks managed to kill “only” 12% of the population, through starvation and execution.

    So the downs of the heretical post or anti-Christians are perhaps comparable to the baseline living of our pre-Christian savage pagans ancestors.

    And indeed Sviatislav whom you liked, as a pagan Rus, probably spent a lot of time engaged in brutalising and killing pagan eastern Slavs and selling them as slaves to the Persians, as the pagan Rus did.

    They accumulated wisdom that lead to survival of their kin and respect for their ancestors, they grew their fruits slowly from well watered native roots. And the fruits produced by their Tree of Life would have been marvelous, if not for the Christian axe cutting the Tree itself and modern World burning it into ashes.

    Slowly indeed. Not much to show after thousands of years, yet such a brilliant flowering under Christ, so soon after the adoption of Christianity.

  222. Shortsword says

    The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I’m not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity).

    The same is basically true for all of the Roman empire. Even before Christianity. The science part anyway. Romans were obviously good at many things, in particular building infrastructure and creating a large functioning bureaucracy. But not really science. There was barely any mathematical progress in the Roman empire at all. Not a single Roman mathematician of note. Killing Archimedes was maybe their most significant achievement…

  223. Bashibuzuk says

    our pre-Christian savage pagans ancestors.

    One should never lack respect to one’s ancestors. Because our descendants will act towards us as we act towards our ancestors. Just a word of caution…

  224. AltanBakshi says

    OTOH, Finland, which Christianized last in Europe (along with Lithuania), doesn’t exactly have a low IQ.

    OTOH OTOH, not likely that differences of a mere few hundred years would have made a cardinal difference.

    Majority of Finns became nominally Christian in the 13th century, Lithuanians in the 15th century, so about one thousand years after Greeks and Italians. Though Swedish clergymen still complained in the 17th century that Estonians and Finns were Half-Pagan in their customs and beliefs.

    Estonians secretly worshiped Tharapita or local variation of Thor in the 16th century and Finns still had Pagan feasts for bear spirits in the 17th century. Similarly Lithuanians were only nominally Catholic in the 15th century.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tharapita

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peijaiset

  225. One should never lack respect to one’s ancestors

    They did the best they could with what they had. But objectively they were violent and primitive people. When given the opportunity to abandon the old ways for something better, they did so.

    How do you feel about our ancestors who turned their back on the pagan traditions and embraced Christ?

  226. The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I’m not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity)

    As had been noted, decline in intellectual production preceded Christianity. However there was no real decline in Byzantium. The people were literate, they engaged in intellectual arguments (often of a theological nature), and technology did progress significantly (invention of Greek Fire and flamethrowers, new architectural technique enabling the creation of the massive dome of Hagia Sophia, hand trebuchets, etc.). Beware Gibbons’ propaganda:

    https://medium.com/@christoss200/byzantine-philosophy-technology-and-medicine-4b160952970b

    5C Pentecostals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

    Early Christians were the original Bioleninists, in modern NRx parlance.

    A lot of the stories about Christians in Alexandria were 18th century myths:

    https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2010/06/the-perniciously-persistent-myths-of-hypatia-and-the-great-library

  227. Correct.

    I speculated what might explain it (apart from the easy way out of positing very high ancient Greek IQs) here: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/ancient-greeks-not-geniuses/

    But probably Christianity made no difference in making the Byzantine-era Greeks either more or less creative than they would have been. (Certainly the bouts of iconoclasm couldn’t have been good for the visual arts).

  228. The people were literate, they engaged in intellectual arguments (often of a theological nature), and technology did progress significantly (invention of Greek Fire and flamethrowers, new architectural technique enabling the creation of the massive dome of Hagia Sophia, hand trebuchets, etc.).

    More impressive than Western Europe until c.1100.

    But much less impressive than either China technologically, or the Muslim world (so far as science is concerned – disproportionately Persian) scientifically.

    The latter had higher populations, in fairness, but relative to what those same people had done 1,000-1,500 years previously, it was quite banal.

    A lot of the stories about Christians in Alexandria were 18th century myths:

    Interesting. I’ll take a look into that.

  229. AltanBakshi says

    Maybe my question will sound stupid from a Eurocentric(narrow-minded) point of view, but how Classical Greek achievements were any greater than Indian or Chinese achievements of the same era? They too had their sceptics, cynics, atomists, materialists, epicureans, empiricists, idealists, as well great authors and dramatists. In many areas they did go further than Greeks, ancient Indians were arguably better in mathematics, medicine and linguistics than Greeks.

    I know that this will sound like blasphemy for some here. But narrow minded chauvinism was what led to destruction of Classical Chinese culture, similarly if European rightists will just look back and think that their culture was best in everything, they will lose their potential to learn from others and adapt to changes.

  230. Can Jewish greatness be separated from their religion? Would they still be intelligent and productive if they would convert to Christianity or Buddhism? Please I want to know your answer.

    The Jewish miracle of the last couple of centuries has two causes:

    1. For centuries they existed in a social niche that selected for higher intelligence. In some respects, similar to that of the “market minority” Chinese in southeastern Asia.
    2. Jews’ existence in the Christian European milieu meant that their genius was not merely channeled into commercial success as in the case of Southeast Asian Cantonese, but with their integration into the rest of Europe, into the arts and sciences also.

    Anyway I wouldn’t be surprised if St- Augustine would have debunked your logic as a heresy! Material gains as a proof of Christ’s greatness? Gold and glitter, like whore’s makeup as a proof of God’s greatness.

    I agree with you 100%. I have already been clear to you, I do not view material success as “proof” or much less “purpose” of God’s or Christ’s greatness, rather it is a consequence or reflection of it, at least for the last 1500 years or so, in most places. Christianity provided its adherents with a certain view of the themselves, their world, and their place in it. And this happens to have enabled them to conquer their own natures, and then the world itself through technology and through politics. Even though conquest was not the point of it.

  231. Coconuts says

    This (agnostic) guy is good on myths relating to Hypatia:

    https://historyforatheists.com/2020/07/the-great-myths-9-hypatia-of-alexandria/

  232. But much less impressive than either China technologically, or the Muslim world (so far as science is concerned – disproportionately Persian) scientifically.

    You wrote a nice article comparing Byzantine to Western intellectual production:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/intellectual-production-in-the-byzantine-empire/

    Byzantium had a much smaller population than the Muslim world, and was basically under siege for much of its history. In what ways was it so far behind technologically though? One would imagine that a great disparity would have resulted in conquest by the Arabs.

  233. Bashibuzuk says

    How do you feel about our ancestors who turned their back on the pagan traditions and embraced Christ?

    I believe they didn’t really have a choice.

    The Pagan religious traditions are fragile; Cesar wrote about the Druids having to learn all their scripture by heart and spending some 12 years studying before becoming recognized as equals by the other priests. Also all pagan religions are initiatic, they have layers of understanding, from the lower popular fertility rites and mythology to the higher philosophical concepts.

    Therefore, once the high priesthood exterminated and centers of learning destroyed, there is not much they could do. And people were still executed in the twelfth century for belonging to the Old Ways, so there was systematic violence applied for many generations. Once Arkona lost to the Catholic crusaders, it was game over for the Slavic Paganism, although I wouldn’t be surprised if Lithuanian Paganism was basically a variation on the same theme.

    I have people who were directly involved with religious matters, on both my mother’s and my father’s side, some being part of Orthodox clergy. The link with strong religious affiliation was lost for different reasons around the mid – nineteenth century. As long as I know, on my father’s side they were respected and well known in their community, so I believe they did good things. Nothing I would be ashamed of.

    On my mother’s side some got involved with the Narodniki, and one was even sent to Siberia for killing an Ouriadnik (police officer) during some terrorist act in the Kursk gubernia. This is something I deeply regret. But of course there is nothing I can do about it. So basically, I think they did their best and I am mainly proud of them, except for the one who committed a murder and disappeared in the Siberian katorga.

    In general, I wish our ancestors would have preserved more of our mythology and ancestral beliefs, just like Islanders and Finns did. At least we would know today what was the spiritual outlook of our people. Now all we have is partial and dubious reconstructions.

  234. Shortsword says

    This can’t be explained by MUH IQ.

    Modern science comes from the idea of being able to model the real world with mathematics. Romans (and everyone else at the time) just didn’t think this way. They were practical and mostly did incremental improvements on what has been proven to work.

    The scientific revolution created a new mindset where people realized they could come up with inventions on paper and make computations to get a rough idea if it will work or not. It wasn’t until Principia that people got a good understanding of the natural laws but the scientific revolution was well underway before that.

    But a lot of this is by happenstance. There could’ve been a scientific revolution in the Roman empire. It’s pretty easy to imagine an alternative timeline where that did happen and modern level of science and technology came into existence at least a millennium earlier. Just imagine if the society in the Roman empire had taken on a more scientific mindset together with mass education.

    But the Roman empire just seems to have had a society which wasn’t conducive to scientific progress.

  235. The Pagan religious traditions are fragile; Cesar wrote about the Druids having to learn all their scripture by heart and spending some 12 years studying before becoming recognized as equals by the other priests. Also all pagan religions are initiatic, they have layers of understanding, from the lower popular fertility rites and mythology to the higher philosophical concepts.

    Makes sense.

    Therefore, once the high priesthood exterminated and centers of learning destroyed,

    Is there any evidence of priest extermination and “centers of learning” being destroyed in the Rus lands? What happened at Arkona may have been part of an overall brutal political conflict (the pagan Slavs were savage pirates, like pagan Vikings).

    In general, I wish our ancestors would have preserved more of our mythology and ancestral beliefs, just like Islanders and Finns did. At least we would know today what was the spiritual outlook of people. Now all we have is partial and dubious reconstructions.

    I agree with this fully.

  236. Coconuts says

    He was woke and his religion was a destructive cult directed against traditional cultural and spiritual identities of that period.

    Wokeness involves extensive post-modern and Foucauldian input, preserving a plurality of minority discourses from being subsumed into a metanarrative or dominant discourse is one of their preoccupations. They always want to dismantle and attack dominant discourses, and Christ would be the origin of a powerful version of one of these, so they wouldn’t like him.

    The fact that Wokeness mixes this with globalism and heterodox flavours of Marxism is one indication of how incoherent it actually is, it makes me think it is more a symptom of cultural decay or disintegration than anything else. The woke grab bits and pieces of cultural and ideology to integrate into aimlessly subversive emotion fueled activism. Then the illusiveness, incoherence and opacity of the ideological production make it useful as a front for globalist financial interests.

    The Roman Empire appears to have had a mixed record of preserving the native religions of the people it conquered in the West, if their religion could not accept the Roman imperial cult and the Roman gods, it had to be modified and obstacles to that (such as druids) removed. Sometimes significant numbers of people were taken away, around 10% of the pre-invasion British population seems to have been taken as slaves or killed by the Romans, and these were later replaced by immigrants transported from other parts of the empire.

    Christian Europe, as it arose in the areas of Europe that were part of the Roman Empire, seems to owe a lot, not just tendencies in religion and culture, but even social and economic organisation to Rome. This may one reason why the idea that Christianity is somehow the cause of wokeness or the recent decline in these areas feels more implausible to me, the Romans had already started to spread civilisation from the Eastern Mediterranean all over by the time it arose.

    It is also interesting that the Old Testament looks to have been for many centuries the best known and most widely distributed book in Europe which contains the narrative that each nation or people has its own special god or pantheon who look after it over the generations in return for worship, and that the nation will suffer or be destroyed if they forsake the relevant god/s.

  237. “Human Accomplishment” by Charles Murray. There are ways of pretty rigorously quantifying these things. (I too had a postmodernish, “can’t quantify different cultures”-type outlook before it).

  238. Bashibuzuk says

    “centers of learning” being destroyed in the Rus lands

    According to Saxo Grammaticus and Adam of Bremen, Arkona was the last of these centers for all the Slavs including those of the Rus lands and even for the last Norse pagans who sent gifts to the temple. In fact, the most developed Wendish lands were to the West. Novgorod was populated with emigrants who were probably escaping the German Drang nach Osten and Christianisation of their lands. There is Oldenburg in Holstein which was called Starigrad and belonged to the Wagrians, perhaps people who founded Novgorod were from there.

    overall brutal political conflict

    It was a Crusade, as soon as the Temple was destroyed (according to the legend it disappeared during the night into the sea in a thunderous sound) and the Prince converted, the war stopped.

    Slavs were savage pirates, like pagan Vikings

    Indeed, the Wends were probably even worse because the Norse often complained of their depredations in the Scandinavian lands. Wends attacking merchant ships like wolves might have been the reason why they were called Varyags. Varg being an old indo-european word for wolf. Another old Indo-European derived word was the name of their Rethra temple, related to the root for the word Red because it was entirely painted red. Arkona too is related to an old Balto-Slavic word arkati which meant to pray / supplicate.

    BTW I have read a theory (somwhere in the internets) that Viking attacks of the Christian lands were a sort of retaliation for the intrusion of Christians into the pagan realm. They often targeted monasteries and the abbayes (although these were obviously nice places to plunder).

  239. Thanks! Yes, I recall writing that, and even put 1100 as the date when Western Europe can be said to have overtook the Byzantine Empire.

    1. Yes, there were some real Greek innovations. The Empire was militarily strained throughout its history, so a lot of its aggregate mind power must have went into the military sphere (e.g. Greek fire! still unsure how to exactly replicate it today. Byzantine military theory was also probably the world’s most advanced at the time). Though much less famous than Anna Comnena, Michael Psellos was arguably a precursor to Leonardo da Vinci.

    2. However, it had no real science as in the Arab (or rather, Arabized) regions of the Middle East, no technological dominance as in Song China, no 12th century medieval Renaissance that spawned the West European university system and the Paris law school, the Oxford Calculators, and eventually, the most famous Renaissance.

    Byzantines had 10M people. Muslim world (Middle East core had perhaps 30-50M). Substantial difference ofc, but even adjusting for population, it was still way more scientifically productive.

    In what ways was it so far behind technologically though?

    Presumably, not behind the Muslims technologically, but certainly no competition with contemporary China at the time (which TBF had 100M people).

  240. Romans (and everyone else at the time) just didn’t think this way.

    https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/gES34u85wzBrRKMeyTyjpX-1200-80.jpg

  241. It was a Crusade, as soon as the Temple was destroyed (according to the legend it disappeared during the night into the sea in a thunderous sound) and the Prince converted, the war stopped.

    Interesting TIL. Wonder if there’s a direct connection to the legend of Kitezh.

  242. Bashibuzuk says

    Wokeness involves extensive post-modern and Foucauldian input, preserving a plurality of minority discourses from being subsumed into a metanarrative or dominant discourse is one of their preoccupations. They always want to dismantle and attack dominant discourses, and Christ would be the origin of a powerful version of one of these, so they wouldn’t like him.

    Early Christians were heretics rejecting the dominant narratives of their times. They were misfits. Later on the whole thing was organized and it took some 300 years to have this whole spiritual mess to be sorted out and a cannon established. Early Christians hoped for the destruction of the centers of power: Rome and Jerusalem, they rejected private property and family structures, they lived in communes. They were Woke.

    The fact that Wokeness mixes this with globalism and heterodox flavours of Marxism is one indication of how incoherent it actually is, it makes me think it is more a symptom of cultural decay or disintegration than anything else.

    One has just to read Gnostic apocrypha to see that early Christian faith was deeply heterogeneous and contradictory. It was also the product of cultural désintegration and reformulation.

    The woke grab bits and pieces of cultural and ideology to integrate into aimlessly subversive emotion fueled activism.

    Exactly like the early Christians who were completely exalted, subverted the ancient Mediterranean culture and society and were extremely emotional (neurotic).

    Christian Europe, as it arose in the areas of Europe that were part of the Roman Empire, seems to owe a lot, not just tendencies in religion and culture, but even social and economic organisation to Rome.

    Of course, they finally took control and used what was left as a basis to build upon. For obvious reasons the basis they had was Roman.

    each nation or people has its own special god or pantheon who look after it over the generations in return for worship, and that the nation will suffer or be destroyed if they forsake the relevant god/s.

    Yes, and yet Christians demanded that all Gentiles forsake their ancient pagan gods and start praying to their crucified messiah. That’s because they were the first internationalists, with their church supposedly fit to build a heavenly New Jerusalem when the old world would have been thoroughly destroyed. Sounds like spiritual Bolshevism to me.

  243. Bashibuzuk says

    I never thought of it, but it might be correct. OTOH it seems pretty sure that the Russian fairy tales telling of “на море океане, на острове Буяне ” is a half-forgotten reminiscence of the Island of Ruyan (Rugen in German).

  244. Blinky Bill says

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Cao_Dai_Temple_Vietnam%282%29.jpg

    Its pantheon of saints includes such diverse figures as the Buddha, Confucius, Jesus Christ, Muḥammad, Pericles, Julius Caesar, Joan of Arc, Victor Hugo, and Sun Yat-sen. There are 36 levels of heaven and 72 planets harboring intelligent life forms. The first of those planets is closest to heaven while the 72nd planet is the closest to hell. Earth is planet number 68.

    The father of the universe, Cao Đài, is believed to have communed with men since the beginning of times, revealing his will. According to Cao Đài doctrine, history is divided into three times (tam kỳ) of revelation. In the first two periods, there were teachings of Dipankara Buddha, sages, Phục Hy/Fu Xi, Gautama Buddha, Laozi, Confucius and Jesus, who received the will of the Highest Power, and founded their respective religions to serve and/ or educate humanity. But due to the frailty of the messengers and the common men, the will of the Highest Power was misled into corrupted forms. Caodaists also believe that former revelations were culture-bound, being applicable only for certain ethnicities, and primarily intended for specific ages

    Joan of Arc is worshipped in the Cao Đài pantheon. She is seen as having guided the Faith at its inception and promoted full equality for women (via séances). The Cao Đài pantheon also has many other well-known figures, including Muhammad, Moses, Louis Pasteur, Shakespeare, and Lenin. Victor Hugo is probably the most important European figure to play a role in the Caodai pantheon, since he gave many teachings and also the text of a number of important prayers. He himself practiced spiritism on the island of Jersey from 1852 to 1855, and predicted that he would become the prophet of a new religion to merge European and Asian mysticism.

  245. One has just to read Gnostic apocrypha to see that early Christian faith was deeply heterogeneous and contradictory.

    Gnosticism reflected the joylessness, hopelessness and spent nature of the pagan world prior to the acceptance of Christianity. The world is terrible, it isn’t real, etc.

    Yes, and yet Christians demanded that all Gentiles forsake their ancient pagan gods and start praying to their crucified messiah. That’s because they were the first internationalists, with their church supposedly fit to build a heavenly New Jerusalem when the old world would have been thoroughly destroyed. Sounds like spiritual Bolshevism to me.

    The old world deserved to be thoroughly destroyed. As I explained, Bolshevism is a twisted heresy of Christianity. It “sounds like” Christianity (not vice versa) in the way that a mutilated corpse “sounds like” the previously alive person. But in this way it is the actual opposite of Christianity. In reducing people to social categories and destroying the sense of their intrinsic worth, Bolshevism seeks to undue Christianity’s radical transformation of people, therefore representing a sort of return to pagan values, albeit minus paganism’s aristocratism (in this sense, Nazism is closer to actual paganism than Bolshevism).

    Here the process is explained very eloquently. It highlights the gulf between the cruel world rightfully destroyed by Christianity and the new one:

    https://lib.tcu.edu/staff/bellinger/60013/Hart-Delusions.pdf

    When all is said and done, the pagan critics of the early church were right to see the new faith as an essentially subversive movement. In fact, they may have been somewhat more perspicacious in this regard than the Christians themselves. Christianity may never have been a revolution in the political sense: it was not a convulsive, violent, or intentionally provocative faction that had some “other vision” of political power to recommend; but neither, for that reason, was the change it brought about something merely local, transient, and finite. The Christian vision of reality was nothing less than—to use the words of Nietzsche—a “transvaluation of all values,” a complete revision of the moral and conceptual categories by which human beings were to understand themselves and one another and their places within the world. It was—again to use Nietzsche’s words, but without his sneer—a “slave revolt in morality.” But it was also, as far as the Christians were concerned, a slave revolt “from above,” if such a thing could be imagined; for it had been accomplished by a savior who had, as Paul said in his Epistle to the Philippians, willingly exchanged the “form of God” for the “form of a slave,” and had thereby overthrown the powers that reigned on high.

    Perhaps even more striking than the episode of Peter’s tears—at least, in regard to its cultural setting—is the story of Christ before Pilate. …In the great cosmic hierarchy of rational powers—descending from the Highest God down to the lowliest of slaves—Pilate’s is a particularly exalted place, a little nearer to heaven than to earth, and imbued with something of the splendor of the gods. Christ, by contrast, has no natural claim whatsoever upon Pilate’s clemency, nor any chartered rights upon which he might call; simply said, he has no person before the law. One figure in this picture, then, enjoys perfect sway over life and death, while the other no longer belongs even to himself. And the picture’s asymmetry becomes even starker (and perhaps even more absurd) when Jesus is brought before Pilate for the second time, having been scourged, wrapped in a soldier’s cloak, and crowned with thorns. To the ears of any ancient person, Pilate’s question to his prisoner now—“Where do you come from?”—would almost certainly have sounded like a perfectly pertinent, if obviously sardonic, inquiry into Christ’s pedigrees, and a pointed reminder that, in comparison to Pilate, Christ is no one at all. And Pilate’s still more explicit admonition a moment later—“I have power to crucify you”—would have had something of the ring of a rhetorical coup de grâce. Christ’s claim, on the other hand, that Pilate possesses no powers not given him from above would have sounded like only the comical impudence of a lunatic.

    …I have to assume, however, that most of us today simply cannot see Christ and Pilate in this way. We come too late in time to think like ancient men and women, and few of us, I hope, would be so childish as to want to. Try though we might, we shall never really be able to see Christ’s broken, humiliated, and doomed humanity as something self-evidently contemptible and ridiculous; we are instead, in a very real sense, destined to see it as encompassing the very mystery of our own humanity: a sublime fragility, at once tragic and magnificent, pitiable and wonderful. Obviously, of course, many of us are quite capable of looking upon the sufferings of others with indifference or even contempt. But what I mean to say is that even the worst of us, raised in the shadow of Christendom, lacks the ability to ignore those sufferings without prior violence to his or her own conscience. We have lost the capacity for innocent callousness. Living as we do in the long aftermath of a revolution so profound that its effects persist in the deepest reaches of our natures, we cannot simply and guilelessly avert our eyes from the abasement of the victim in order to admire the grandeur of his persecutor; and for just this reason we lack any immediate consciousness of the radical inversion of perspective that has occurred in these pages.

  246. AltanBakshi says

    Postmodernish, don’t talk shit! I just downloaded Charles Murray’s book from gen lib, yep I haven’t had time to read it yet, but I made a small experiment, I searched how often word Alexandria occurred, 27 times! But there was not even one mention of great Indian universities as Taxila or Nalanda.

    Then there is stuff like this:

    “The number of significant figures in Indian philosophy is so small (45) that
    the spikes represent one major figure plus a few others. The first spike is
    based on Buddha, who was active around –500.”

    Extremely subjective take…

    Even Panini is just mentioned in context of one later commentary of his works.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81%E1%B9%87ini

    “Pāṇini’s theory of morphological analysis was more advanced than any equivalent Western theory before the 20th century.[23] His treatise is generative and descriptive, uses metalanguage and meta-rules, and has been compared to the Turing machine wherein the logical structure of any computing device has been reduced to its essentials using an idealized mathematical model.”

    You know I have spent only 5 minutes with his book and found that it’s extremely subjective and biased. What will I find if I will spend couple hours with it? Anyway many of his graphs are so subjective, that it’s like some silly joke, like the one found from the page 326 about Indian philosophy.

  247. AltanBakshi says

    It really seems that Murray has quite limited knowledge about India, some of his statements like that Buddhist was never most important philosophy in India, are not accepted in the academic world.

    Why does Buddha languish in fourth place? Because, despite his
    place alongside Abraham, Jesus, and Muhammad as founders of the world’s great
    religions, Buddhism has always been secondary to Hinduism in India, both as
    philosophy (which is the basis for Buddha’s inclusion here) and as a religion.

    Hinduism as we know didn’t even exist 2000 years ago, there were no Hindu temples, or statues of gods. Buddhism was most dominant school, and archeological evidence supports this fact, for all ancient Indian buildings which survive into the present era are Buddhist temples.

    There are no mention of Jain mathematicians in Murray’s book, or anything about Buddhist logicians, Dignagas and Dharmakirtis names are mentioned, but nothing else.

    There is no mention of logicians like Bhavaviveka, Santaraksita, Kamalasila or Haribhadra.

  248. AltanBakshi says

    But maybe I’m wrong, I haven’t yet read Murray’s book and I have only spend about 10 minutes with it, but still it seems that there are huge holes in it. When I have time I will read the whole book.

  249. AltanBakshi says

    One has just to read Gnostic apocrypha to see that early Christian faith was deeply heterogeneous and contradictory. It was also the product of cultural désintegration and reformulation.

    Gnostics were a separate school of thought and they had nothing to do with the “Proto-Orthodoxy,” which later developed into the state Church of the Roman Empire. I’ve never understood revisionists who purposefully muddle history and claim that before Constantine Christianity was philosophically and spiritually a hodge podge of strange Gnostic cults, we can clearly see from such surviving writings as Didache and writings of St. Justin the Martyr, St. Irenaeus, St. Ignatius of Antioch that there was a real and historically attested Orthodox Church in the second and first centuries of our era, its true that their doctrines were not as well clarified as they were later in Ecclesiastical councils, and some of their thinkers like Origenes, were controversial, and almost heretical from the point of view of later Christianity, but they were not Gnostics. I don’t understand where this accusation comes from, that early Church was somehow Gnostic? The Gnostics were a parallel development of Christianity and Neo-Platonist thought, and clearly separate from the early Church or Proto-Orthodoxy which later developed to the State Church of the Empire, which is now split into three pieces, Western Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox communions. Those three communions plus Church of the East are true and apostolic representatives of Christianity.

    Bashibuzuk the problem with modernity goes deeper than external manifestations of spirituality, are countries like Japan, Korea or Thailand really spiritually healthy? Though only Christian countries are welcoming Muslims and Africans en masse, that’s a strange coincidence.

  250. AltanBakshi says

    I agree with you 100%. I have already been clear to you, I do not view material success as “proof” or much less “purpose” of God’s or Christ’s greatness, rather it is a consequence or reflection of it, at least for the last 1500 years or so, in most places. Christianity provided its adherents with a certain view of the themselves, their world, and their place in it. And this happens to have enabled them to conquer their own natures, and then the world itself through technology and through politics. Even though conquest was not the point of it.

    For last 1500 years other faiths in East Asia enabled Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans and Japanese to “conquer their own natures,” those faiths brought up as much or even more peace and stability than Christianity ever did. Only in the last couple hundred years the traditional equilibrium between the civilizations of the Old World was broken. Main reason why Buddhism did not spread to the West was the Sassanid persecution of Buddhism in the Iranian plateau and establishment of Zoroastrianism as their state religion. Biggest thanks belong to Zoroastrian High Priest Karter, who tried to purge all other religions from the Iranian lands, without him and Sassanid state policy, the small and growing Buddhist communities of Egypt would have kept their links with India and grown larger, but with hostile Iranian authorities, the small samplings withered away…

    Anyway all Abrahamic religions are culturally and philosophically patricidal, Christianity the least, thus Bashibuzuk is partially correct. When Christians say that it was wholly good that they supplanted and destroyed old faiths and cultures, then they cant say that another system of faith or morals is immoral when its trying to do same with Christianity! They are just doing what Christianity did! Therefore Christians are justifying such societal dialectics by their own behaviour and beliefs! Anti-Christians too believe that their case is just, that they are bringing light of reason, spirit of liberty to the masses, and if we inspect only the material welfare of the masses, then they are quite right, Scandinavian countries are quite irreligious, as are countries like Netherlands, and they have best quality of life in the whole world. This dominant ideology in the society dialectic was partially started by Christianity, but Early Church is not responsible for it, but the Roman authorities, I know, I know, its an old cliche that Church got corrupted when it gained political power, but Christians of the first centuries were not politically important, nor did they have any big problems with Pagans or Jews, until both Pagans and Jews started persecuting them, maybe Christianity got twisted and crooked after centuries of persecution? Then afterwards when they gained political clout in ancient empire full of corruption, its easy to to imagine what would be the outcome. Sadly most people who know about the Roman Empire, know only about its years of glory and about its fall, but they dont know how full of corruption was the Imperial bureaucracy during the last centuries of its existence.

    Honestly its understandable if you persecute someone for hundreds of years, that when they get in power they start persecuting others, typical for victims of abuse and bullying.

  251. Bashibuzuk says

    Gnostics were a separate school of thought and they had nothing to do with the “Proto-Orthodoxy,” which later developed into the state Church of the Roman Empire.

    In a thousand years, people discussing Holy Floyd and the power of His transformative self-sacrifice would also possibly discuss which among the early Wokism sects were the true Woke Orthodoxy. (Sarc.)

    Seriously, the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas is certainly among the ancient ones and the synoptic Gospel of John is itself as Gnostic as it gets. All these texts have been probably produced in the early second century around Alexandria in its Jewish Hellenistic milieu, they were all impacted by the ideas travelling the Sulk Road along the caravans.

    Those memetic packages that were more adaptative and mentally virulent survived and thrived, later on producing Antiochian School and Desert Fathers and “True Orthodoxy (TM)”. Those which were too unhinged or socially inept died out. In the end we had a new religion in which a young wandering Hellenistic Rabbi and his heterodox teaching have become Christ Pantocrator and the only true Path to Redemption. It took around 400 years to get there.

    Same thing as an old Aryan sramana, dying of indigestion in his late 60ies, becomes a Cosmic Buddha able to project Universes at will some 400 years after his death. A living human petson becomes a Myth and lives rent free in the hearts and minds of his multitudes of followers transforming their lives and their societies for ever.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/AdobeIllustrator/comments/h132pe/portrait_of_george_floyd_hoping_to_turn_this_into/

    I wonder if in a 2000 years, when NY Yankees stadium will look like the Coliseum today, our offspring will claim descent from Saint Malcolm X and Queen Latifah for Holy George Floyd. And describe how those Evil Huwites fed the lions with the peaceful and vibrant Black people on the stadium.

    I am of course being sarcastic and silly here. What I am aiming at is that ideas and symbols have an evolutive history of their own. Anything we see today is completely distorted and distinct from the reality of the ages long past.

  252. AltanBakshi says

    Same thing as an old Aryan sramana, dying of indigestion in his late 60ies, becomes a Cosmic Buddha able to project Universes at will some 400 years after his death. A living human petson becomes a Myth and lives rent free in the hearts and minds of his multitudes of followers transforming their lives and their societies for ever.

    The Blessed One died when he was 80 years old, where you have found that he died in his late sixties? This all is heresy, not Dharma.

    Anumsriti in Sanskrit or Anussati Sutta in Pali is found in both Mahayana and Theravada canons, though in Pali its much longer, therefore Anumsriti sutra is older than the schism between Mahayana and Hinayana, composed only about one hundred years after the death of Buddha, or maybe even before, but at least before the schism which happened about one hundred years after the Victorious One’s (Jina) death(Parinirvana). Let’s see what is said about Buddha in Anumsriti Sutra?

    Thus begins The Noble Sutra Remembering the Three Jewels – Arya Ratnatraya Anusmṛtisūtra:

    Homage to the Omniscient One. Purified and Consummate, Victorious, Virtuous and Transcendent, Thus-Gone, Foe-Destroying, Entirely Perfect Buddha, Full of Wisdom, the Blissfully Proceeding, the Knower of the World, Charioteer and Subduer of Beings, the Unsurpassable and Teacher of Gods and Men: such is Buddha, Victorious, Virtuous and Transcendent. He who is Thus-Gone exemplifies the merit which is His cause; In Him, no root of virtue is ever worn away. Through His manifold patience, He is excellently beautiful. He is the treasure- ground of merit, adorned with the tokens of Enlightenment. He is graced with the flowers of the marks of Buddhahood. All He does is timely and opportune and nothing inharmonious mars the sight of Him. True joy, indeed, He gives to those who open up their hearts to Him in faith. Through the brilliance of His wisdom, He is unconfounded and against His power, there is no victory. He is the Teacher of all living beings, the Father of all Bodhisattvas, the King of all Supreme Ones; He is the guide for those who journey to the City Beyond Affliction. His wisdom is unbounded, His assurance is beyond imagination. His speech is altogether pure, well tuned and sweet to hear. Gazing on Him, one is never sated; His body is beyond compare. By the realm of desire, He is unstained and by the realm of form, He is wholly uncontaminated; He is not mingled with the formless(arupaloka). He is altogether free from misery, and from the aggregates, He is utterly and altogether liberated. The elements have no hold on Him; He has mastery over the sense powers. All His bonds are completely severed and from all pains He is perfectly and totally released. No craving does He have, He has passed beyond the Stream. Perfect is His wisdom and in the wisdom of the Buddhas past, present and to come, He has made his dwelling. In nirvana, where all suffering is transcended, He does not abide;His abode is on the summit of perfection, whence He perceives all living beings. Such are the sublime qualities that are the greatness of the Buddha, Victorious, Virtuous and Transcendent.The sacred Doctrine is righteous in the outset, righteous in the middle, righteous in the end; in its meaning, excellent and in its words and syllables, likewise. It is integral and unalloyed;it is all sufficing, altogether pure and purifying. Well spoken is this Dharma by the Victorious, Virtuous and Transcendent. It is a perfect way of seeing and is devoid of flaws; it is perennial and leads us onward. To see this Dharma is to fulfill one’s purpose; it produces in the wise, the wisdom all-distinguishing. The Dharma spoken by the Victorious, Virtuous and Transcendent is shown to be well-tempered to the instructions and to the needs of all. It drives one from samsara and causes one to go to perfect Buddhahood. It is free from contradiction and in it, all is summarised. It is to be relied upon totally; it is a cutting of the root.

    All other faiths and philosophies believe that man is limited, but not we, for us man can go farther and further than any god! There are no challenges that cant be overcome by Human hands, there’s nothing in whole universe which cant be understood by Human ingenuity! This is why we are perfect fit with the Cosmist philosophy! We do not accept nor recognize any limits for what a Man can achieve! After all Buddha always said that there is no more precious birth than the birth of a Human! A precious Human birth as it is said in our texts. Though we are weak and frail at our present state, the struggle makes us greater than any god! With our Human hearts, with our Human hands, with our Human minds we will transform all the reality to our liking. According to Mahayana Buddhist philosophy our whole reality can be transformed to a greater state than any heaven, but it will take a long, long time, but one day our world will be the Pure Land of Shakyamuni, without death and pain.

    The Goal is clear, the Path is long, but it will be completed, no matter how many Eons/Kalpas it will take, the End State will be beyond anything we can now Imagine!

  253. Coconuts says

    Early Christians were heretics rejecting the dominant narratives of their times.

    I don’t know if this is the case outside the Anglosphere, but inside woke is already the dominant narrative of our times.

    They were misfits

    The woke are bureaucrats, academics, celebrities, teachers, literally princes, senior police(wo)men, executives in media companies etc. Some of their children may be behaving like misfits, or dress in deliberately unconventional ways, but that kind of thing is becoming a badge of their status. It appears to be a kind of elite movement, from within the ruling institutions.

    Early Christians hoped for the destruction of the centers of power: Rome and Jerusalem, they rejected private property and family structures, they lived in communes. They were Woke.

    The woke work to preserve current structures of power though. They supposedly aspire to fully automated luxury gay communism, where everyone lives in mansions, consuming designer goods, driving around in Maseratis, is involved in polyamorous love tetrahedrons, robs banks to steal diamonds for amusement and so on. Some of them may more or less live like that already, little that they do contributes to extending this lifestyle beyond those who already have it, apart from what is required for them to maintain it .

    That’s because they were the first internationalists, with their church supposedly fit to build a heavenly New Jerusalem when the old world would have been thoroughly destroyed. Sounds like spiritual Bolshevism to me.

    As I said I think the Romans beat them to it in being the first practical internationalists, and in terms of building something new on the destruction of the old order. The old world the woke target is the one of Christianity, of secular liberalism, of Rome, of Bolshevism and Fascism and so on, and as far as I can see what they are trying to build is a bourgeois progressive hegemony. It largely lacks any transcendent or spiritual content, so in that way it is like Bolshevism, but unlike Christianity, Gnosticism or any of those religious movements of antiquity.

  254. Seriously, the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas is certainly among the ancient ones and the synoptic Gospel of John is itself as Gnostic as it gets

    No, Altan is correct here. Gnosticism and proto-Orthodox Christianity were completely different faiths and indeed were recognised as such by their own adherents and by their rivals such as the neo-Platonists such as Plotinus and Porphyry who attacked Gnosticism and did not treat it as an offshoot of Christianity. Islam is probably closer to Christianity than is Gnosticism. The basic tenets of Christianity were generally denied by the Gnostics:

    • the world is a good creation of the One God
    • the One God was the God of the Jews and the Father of Christ
    • God sent Christ to redeem everyone
    • all men and women are children of God
    • in dying and resurrecting, Christ overthrew Death for all humankind
    • God did not only come to save the wise

    The Gnostic sects usually (but not always) recognised some idea of Christ but at times (as in the case of the Naasenes) also worshipped Dionysus or Attis. The Gospel of Thomas portrays Christ as an obviously otherworldly messenger who comes to lead a very select group of men away from the world, portrayed as evil. Only a small group have a divine spark, the rest of humanity are soulless corpses living in a world that is itself a corpse. The world is made not by God but by inferior gods (archons) and most of humanity had also been made by these gods and thus is not redeemable. Some Gnostic stories are simply cruel. In the Second Treatise of the Great Seth, Christ is said to brag about how he deceived the powers of the world by causing Simon of Cyrene to take on His appearance and to be cruelly tortured and crucified while He watched from above, amused at the spectacle of the suffering and stupidity of the cretinous archons.

    At its heart, Gnosticism rejects the world and hates most of its people. As such it reflects the cruelty, decay and pessimism of the late Roman and Hellenistic pagan world. A world thankfully destroyed by Christ.

    In its rejection of the world, Gnosticism does seem to have something in common with Buddhism. To paraphrase another poster, for the majority of Buddhists (and other Indic religions), the world as not ultimately real. The royal road is the awakening from the nightmare of empirical existence, the grand release- this world does not possess any “deeper” purpose or anything similar. Escapism is the way of liberation. On the other hand, the Christian narrative is profoundly different: the world is fundamentally good (not illusion, not a meaningless, confusing nightmare); so Christian keywords are not “suffering” and “enlightenment”, but “evil” and “resurrection”. Moreover, for this reason the Christian world-view has, in a meandering way, given rise to science & abundant speculation: this world, created with a purpose, has laws & some deeper sense that an individual can decipher, primarily using intellect & activity (which is God-pleasing).

    I sense that you had once flirted with Gnosticism? It’s harshly negative view of the world would fit the post-Soviet hellscape from which you emerged. But you are too good for it, Gnosticism is essentially misanthropic. Buddhism is much better, more compassionate and universalist.

  255. AltanBakshi says

    the world as not ultimately real.

    Pot calling a kettle black, eh? For you Christians only God is ultimately real, not this world, or have I misunderstood you guys? For you truth is to be found only in God itself, and all truths of this world are derived from him. To us the truth is to be found from the sentient being itself, from the Man itself.

    Anyways there are different Orthodox Buddhists schools in regards of the reality of reality, some believe in objective existence of phenomena, and some in subjective, even those of us who believe that things are not ultimately real, are not denying the existence of things on a conventional level, just that we have a false understanding of their true nature. Thus it can be said that our sensory world is like magicians trick, not that there would be something like real magic or illusion, but that our senses betray us to believe that the trick is like magic, and we dont notice how magician has tricked us, there is logic, but its beneath the appearances, hidden from those who lack patience, insight and perseverance.

    I don’t even bother with your “escapism” claim, its you guys who are escapists.

    For the sake of Bashibuzuk I really hope he is not one of those fellows who are doomed to wander all their lives, from one philosophy to another, for generating real faith in some religion, seems some what hard for him. All Buddhists are wanderers, but not all who wander are lost.

  256. For you Christians only God is ultimately real, not this world, or have I misunderstood you guys

    The world is very real, it was made by God and it is fundamentally good (though wounded). Gnostics believed it was created by demons or other creatures, that it was evil, that Gnostics were elite spirits, tragically trapped in it, but capable of escape through their knowledge, while most of humanity were soulless creatures of evil world.

    Buddhists seem to believe that the world/reality is ultimately neither good nor evil but illusory. Is that fair?

    I don’t even bother with your “escapism” claim, its you guys who are escapists.

    On the contrary, Christians have quite engaged and active in interacting with this world, studying it, improving it, transforming it.

  257. AltanBakshi says

    Buddhists seem to believe that the world/reality is ultimately neither good nor evil but illusory. Is that fair?

    Is world illusory or not? It’s not a simple binary question according to Buddhism, with a clear cut answer. How we believe world to be, is not same as how world really is, it’s erroneous to claim that we believe this world to be an illusion because we have such attitude towards the truth. From one viewpoint things are how they seem to be, from another things are not how they seem to be, especially if we put the nature of phenomena under the analysis of human intellect, though objects seem to be something at one moment, they do not have nothing permanent in them, their nature is fleeting and ever prone to transformation. I have now very crudely presented our attitude towards the truth and various viewpoints.

    We do believe that there is the Ultimate Truth, which is basis for all, which is True, singular and non-composite, it is said that its nature is “Clear Light,” one can’t gain insight into Ultimate Truth, without purifying oneself from all delusions and sins, it is not something that can be expressed through composite and momentary human language. Sometimes I half heretically speculate if it’s the same Uncreated Light as seen on Mount Tabor by the disciples of Christ.

    On the contrary, Christians have quite engaged and active in interacting with this world, studying it, improving it, transforming it.

    Don’t you believe in eternity in heaven, where you will be forever happy, Buddhism strives to create men who would voluntarily choose to be on this world for welfare of men, not beings who would like to escape to some heaven and leave this all behind.
    From our viewpoint you believe in stuff that is absolutely non-logical, something that can’t logically exist, something which is an impossibility and in contradiction with our reality, I’ll leave it to that, I don’t want to insult you guys.

  258. Bashibuzuk says

    for generating real faith in some religion, seems somewhat hard for him

    It is said that in his old age, Bodhidharma gathered four of his enlightened disciples and asked them to convey their understanding of the dharma. While the others gave various responses, Huike stood, said nothing, bowed to Bodhidharma, and then sat back down. Based on this response, Bodhidharma formally named Huike his dharma heir.

    What is important is to learn to do think right thoughts and do the right thing.

  259. AltanBakshi says

    It is said that in his old age, Bodhidharma gathered four of his enlightened disciples and asked them to convey their understanding of the dharma. While the others gave various responses, Huike stood, said nothing, bowed to Bodhidharma, and then sat back down. Based on this response, Bodhidharma formally named Huike his dharma heir.

    Enlightened beings have extrasensory abilities(they can go into deep concentration and see things clearly), commonly accepted fact in Chan. Anyway those “enlightened” disciples were most likely on the level of Arhat/Luohan. Arhat is also an enlightened being and can abide in Nirvana, just like Buddhas, still their wisdom is lacking in comparison.

    What is important is to learn to do think right thoughts and do the right thing.

    I agree with your wisdom, I am sorry if I have sounded preachy, but your words about Buddha sounded quite modern and revisionist. Also I have deducted, maybe erroneously, that you have dabbled with quite many different faiths and beliefs, like with Islam, and maybe with Gnosticism. Well, it’s all good, nothing is intellectually worse than an echo chamber.

  260. Bashibuzuk says

    Also I have deducted, maybe erroneously, that you have dabbled with quite many different faiths and beliefs, like with Islam, and maybe with Gnosticism.

    Before I buy a car, I compare the specs and think about the intended use. Same with a “spiritual vehicle “. You have to know their strong and weak sides, compare them and choose what is best for your psychology. Basically any belief system is a tool. You need the right tool to achieve the right outcome.

  261. Bashibuzuk says

    Gnosticism and proto-Orthodox Christianity were completely different faiths and indeed were recognised as such by their own adherents and by their rivals such as the neo-Platonists such as Plotinus and Porphyry who attacked Gnosticism and did not treat it as an offshoot of Christianity

    They both originate from the same intellectual environment in the Hellenistic Jewish diaspora in Alexandria, Asia Minor and the Mediterranean basin in general. That was in the final decades of first century AD and the early decades of the second century AD. They diverged by the end of second century AD and became irreconcilable by the early decades of the third century.

    – the world is a good creation of the One God
    – the One God was the God of the Jews and the Father of Christ
    – God sent Christ to redeem everyone
    – all men and women are children of God
    – in dying and resurrecting, Christ overthrew Death for all humankind
    – God did not only come to save the wise

    Yes, Gnostics mainly denied that YHWH was our Heavenly Father. They also believed that only those who had the right mindset could be saved.

    The Gospel of Thomas portrays Christ as an obviously otherworldly messenger who comes to lead a very select group of men away from the world, portrayed as evil.

    The Gospel of Thomas is a collection of sayings of Jesus (logia) it is strongly related to the cannonic Gospels. Jesus is presented as a teacher who has a good sense of humor and basically no context is given about when or why a given phrase has been uttered by the Savior.

    (2) Jesus said, “Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All.”

    (3) Jesus said, “If those who lead you say to you, ‘See, the kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty.”

    (4) Jesus said, “The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live. For many who are first will become last, and they will become one and the same.”

    (5) Jesus said, “Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you . For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest.”

    (6) His disciples questioned him and said to him, “Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?”
    Jesus said, “Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered.”

    http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html

    It is undeniably one of the oldest Gospels. Probably older than the Gospels of Luke and John. It confirms the other Gospels and expands the collection of sayings of Christ. The only thing that perhaps justified its being rejected by the Orthodox Church is the fact that Jesus is saying that Mary Magdalena is as worthy as his other disciples:

    (114) Simon Peter said to him, “Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life.”
    Jesus said, “I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    On the other hand, Gnostics also indulged in strongly heterodox interpretations of the Divine influenced by different other Middle Eastern belief systems.

    The One rules all. Nothing has authority over it.
    It is the God.
    It is Father of everything,
    Holy One
    The invisible one over everything.
    It is uncontaminated
    Pure light no eye can bear to look within.

    The One is the Invisible Spirit.
    It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God.
    It is more than just God.

    Nothing is above it.
    Nothing rules it.
    Since everything exists within it
    It does not exist within anything.
    Since it is not dependent on anything
    It is eternal.

    It is absolutely complete and so needs nothing.
    It is utterly perfect
    Light.

    The One is without boundaries
    Nothing exists outside of it to border it
    The One cannot be investigated
    Nothing exists apart from it to investigate it
    The One cannot be measured
    Nothing exists external to it to measure it

    The One cannot be seen
    For no one can envision it
    The One is eternal
    For it exists forever
    The One is inconceivable
    For no one can comprehend it
    The One is indescribable
    For no one can put any words to it.

    The One is infinite light
    Purity
    Holiness
    Stainless,

    The One is incomprehensible
    Perfectly free from corruption.
    Not “perfect”
    Not “blessed”
    Not “divine”
    But superior to such concepts.
    Neither physical nor unphysical
    Neither immense nor infinitesimal
    It is impossible to specify in quantity or quality
    For it is beyond knowledge.

    The One is not a being among other beings
    It is vastly superior
    But it is not “superior.”

    It is outside of realms of being and time
    For whatever is within realms of being was created
    And whatever is within time had time allotted to it
    The One receives nothing from anything.
    It simply apprehends itself in its own perfect light

    The One is majestic.
    The One is measureless majesty

    Chief of all Realms
    Producing all realms

    Light
    Producing light

    Life
    Producing life

    Blessedness
    Producing blessedness

    Knowledge
    Producing knowledge

    Good
    Producing goodness

    Mercy
    Producing mercy

    Generous
    Producing generosity

    Which is more than Judaism has ever claimed for YHWH and quite similar to the Ismaili interpretation of Allah which was strongly influenced by Neoplatonic thought.

    http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn-davies.html

  262. Bashibuzuk says

    Also if someone is interested in the comparative analysis of Gnostic and Canonical texts, there is this Russian publication that I found interesting:

    https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/neiskazhennoe-hristianstvo-i-ego-istochniki/viewer

  263. Don’t you believe in eternity in heaven, where you will be forever happy,

    Ultimately we and this world will be resurrected, it will not be another world but this one, reborn and purified. This world was created by God for us, and He is present in it.

    Buddhism strives to create men who would voluntarily choose to be on this world for welfare of men, not beings who would like to escape to some heaven and leave this all behind.

    And yet, in general, Christians have been far more active and less detached from this world than have been Buddhists.

    I saved this comment written someone else awhile ago on some other forum. Is it an accurate contrast between Buddhism and Christianity:

    Buddha’s teachings deny the existence of authentic personal self or ego. For Buddha, as we know, all passions stem from the sense of “I”- which is false, since no “I” actually exists, only a conglomerate of skandhas or sense aggregates. There is no selfhood in the same manner there is no “carhood”- only carburetor, tires etc. It’s the same in Ch’an/Zen, where ahamkar or “I” sense is false, unlike Buddhata or Buddha nature, which is essentially the Dharmakaya (won’t bother with details). The only exception is Vajrayana or “Tibetan” Buddhism, which acknowledges the principle of consciousness, vijnana chaitanya or shes-pa as real, and differentiates it from rig-pa or Buddhata. Summarily, the goal of all Buddhists- and I’m not talking about folk varieties- is the extinguishing of “I” sense or false ego, which is the root of all sorrows. And this is Nirvana/Nibbana.

    On the other hand, we in Christianity do not think that ego is false, nor do we want to erase it (we don’t think it’s possible at all). Ordinary doctrines want to tame the ego & conform it to the will of God. More developed orthodox Christian doctrines, especially in the tradition of the Rhineland school, equate the “fallen man” with ego (which is real, just fallen- see Eckhart’s tract “On the Noble Man”), and conjunction of psyche with God is “scintilla animae” or Imago Dei. Through Imago Dei, a spiritually transformed (wo)man is united with their true self, who is Christ. In Christianity, the ego is not annihilated (except, sometimes, for Eckhart- although he was equivocal about it), but transmuted.

  264. Yes, Gnostics mainly denied that YHWH was our Heavenly Father. They also believed that only those who had the right mindset could be saved.

    More so, salvation was limited to a select few from the start, who had been created by God. Most of humanity, in contrast, could not be saved because they were made by the same demons/archons that created the evil world that they, the saved, were trapped in. The rest of the people had no souls, they could be killed at will.

    The only thing that perhaps justified its being rejected by the Orthodox Church is the fact that Jesus is saying that Mary Magdalena is as worthy as his other disciples

    No, the fact that women are excluded from salvation, unless by a miracle they are transformed into men. A profoundly misogynistic doctrine:

    Simon Peter said to him, “Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life.”
    Jesus said, “I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven.

    ::::::::::::::::

    What do you think of this essay on Jung and Gnosticism?

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2013/01/jungs-therapeutic-gnosticism

  265. Coconuts says

    We do believe that there is the Ultimate Truth, which is basis for all, which is True, singular and non-composite, it is said that its nature is “Clear Light,” one can’t gain insight into Ultimate Truth, without purifying oneself from all delusions and sins, it is not something that can be expressed through composite and momentary human language. Sometimes I half heretically speculate if it’s the same Uncreated Light as seen on Mount Tabor by the disciples of Christ.

    It sounds kind of like it at least. It is interesting that such a concept exists in Buddhism, I hadn’t heard of it before (my knowledge of Buddhism is very limited).

    Don’t you believe in eternity in heaven, where you will be forever happy

    Saints who are in heaven are somehow aware of what is going on on earth and can intercede for people who need or request their help. The same is true of the Mother of God, she constantly looks for sinners to assist.

    From our viewpoint you believe in stuff that is absolutely non-logical, something that can’t logically exist, something which is an impossibility and in contradiction with our reality, I’ll leave it to that, I don’t want to insult you guys.

    I don’t know, this is tantalising, if you have a logical disproof of the existence of God (that is beyond or different to the usual ones atheists put forward).

  266. Bashibuzuk says

    What do you think of this essay on Jung and Gnosticism?

    The part about Jung is only interesting because it shows that even the greatest minds can fall pray to illusion. The part about Gnosticism and our present “end of the days” spiritual situation is in my opinion absolutely correct. I have felt what the author describes and I think I understand perfectly what he is talking about. A great article, many thanks for the link!

    I remember, when I first read a few Nag Hammadi Apocrypha in a Russian translation in 1994, I was in Moscow and it was a rainy and rather cold October. I had a friend, a junkie who was trying to stay sober at the time because his girlfriend was pregnant, who made me discover Dead Can Dance. Their album, Into the Realm of a Dying Sun, was a perfect musical illustration of the Gnostic emotions of loss, longing and despair.

    It was the situation described in the article you linked, but put into music instead of being put into a text. It made for a great musical background to the Gnostic texts That year was truly a terrible time, but it was also the year I started practicing Zen and had this epiphany of the Divine presence in our world that the article also eloquently mentions. Since then the despair has been bearable, two years later we emigrated, then I met my wife and had my children. Life acquired a meaning.

    But even to this very day, sometimes I have the impression that I was perhaps closer to some important truth back then in these cold and dark October days. It often happens when I am tired or disappointed with something, probably just a reminiscence of that dark period.

    Now, an important thing about Gnosticism: they believed that only certain souls can be awakened and brought back to Pleroma, but it was not due to God creating these, while the demiurge creating others, it was simply because some were ready, whereas others were not.

    Valentine himself said something along the lines of: “As the sun shines equaly upon the saint and the sinner and rain falls equaly upon the good and the bad people, also God’s fullness (Pleroma) is equally above them all. For the good are not good and the evil are not evil…”. The elitism of which they were accused by their Orthodox counterparts was not as extreme as their accusers pretended.

    If someone is sold into slavery and forced into prostitution, then this person is a victim, not a guilty part. That’s how Valentinian Gnostics saw the human souls captured by the archonts of the Demiurge. These souls commit inequity because they are slaves to the evil powers, while a liberated human soul is intrinsically pure and good because in its very depth it is divine light itself.

    It is of course similar to Hinduistic Atman being a part of Brahman, Islamic fitra (pure numenous substance) being the presence of God himself in the hearts of the Faithful and Buddha nature found deep into the minds of the sentient beings being the purified Alaya consciousness equated with the Dharmakaya (ultimate perceptible Reality).

    Jung was right about that: there are only so many patterns that our subconscious can project…

    Thanks again for the link.

  267. Bashibuzuk says

    I should have written “fall prey” instead of “fall pray”, my English is not getting any better…

  268. Bashibuzuk says

    You have made me realize some aspects of the whole Woke phenomenon that I did not think about. Woke as a narrative pushed by the elites makes absolutely sense if we think of it as of a weapon used by the globalized elite against the Western middle class.

    I can see what they are trying to build is a bourgeois progressive hegemony. It largely lacks any transcendent or spiritual content, so in that way it is like Bolshevism, but unlike Christianity, Gnosticism or any of those religious movements of antiquity.

    Yes. This is correct. Also I recommend the article about Jung and Gnosticism that AP linked in one of his comments below. Good read and somewhat related to the Wokness.

  269. And thank you as always for your thoughtful comments. I also remember Dead Can Dance from the same time (we must be of similar age), but that was a much more joyful year in my life.

    We wife had a family friend in Russia who struggled with heroin at that time. They sent him to a monastery, to some hospitals. He was saved when he move to Dubai, he is clean and successful there. Nineties were hell on Earth in Russia, but a sort of golden age in the USA and West (Cold War won, China hadn’t risen, booming economy, no war).

  270. AltanBakshi says

    Summarily, the goal of all Buddhists- and I’m not talking about folk varieties- is the extinguishing of “I” sense or false ego, which is the root of all sorrows. And this is Nirvana/Nibbana.

    Oh well Schopenhauer’s misunderstandings strike once again. There’s no school of Buddhism which shares these sentiments. The root of all sorrows in Buddhism are three poisons of Ignorance, Aversion and Lust, but the biggest poison, and root of them all is Ignorance. Those three are extinguished and Nirvana is attained.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_poisons
    https://encyclopediaofbuddhism.org/wiki/Three_poisons

    which acknowledges the principle of consciousness, vijnana chaitanya

    Vijnana is acknowledged by the Chinese and Theravada schools. All schools of Buddhism believe that there’s a stream of consciousness, but that there’s nothing fixed in it, we don’t deny that we exist, we deny that we exist separately and independently, that we possess permanent essence, such existence is denied by us.

    Of course Buddhas exist, and will continue existing, but they are free of “self -cherishing” attitude, they don’t think that their selves exist independently, no one of us exists independently, all existence is co-dependent, the suffering arises from our false understanding of reality, when we do not innately understand this great truth, we behave thinking that our happiness is not dependent on others.

    And yet, in general, Christians have been far more active and less detached from this world than have been Buddhists.

    It’s true that Christians have done arguably more to help poor and sick during the last two hundred of years. Thanks to the science they have done much, but before 19th century we did as much. Asian countries were full of Buddhist social institutions helping the poor, sick and orphaned.

  271. AltanBakshi says

    I don’t know, this is tantalising, if you have a logical disproof of the existence of God (that is beyond or different to the usual ones atheists put forward).

    We have quite a few. There’s no sense to share them and create confusion and strife.

  272. AltanBakshi says

    It sounds kind of like it at least. It is interesting that such a concept exists in Buddhism, I hadn’t heard of it before (my knowledge of Buddhism is very limited).

    Yes it’s not common knowledge, but all Buddhist schools do believe in truth. Theravadas believe in one truth , which has different expressions, and we of Mahayana believe that there’s two truths, the conventional truth of worldly existence and the ultimate truth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine

  273. AltanBakshi says

    No, the fact that women are excluded from salvation, unless by a miracle they are transformed into men. A profoundly misogynistic doctrine:

    Such attitudes were surprisingly common in the ages of the past. For the sake of honesty I must confess that such sentiment was shared by some Early Buddhists, they thought that no woman could ever achieve the enlightened state. Even now the Theravadas of Southern Asia believe so.

  274. AltanBakshi says

    If we want to found the key to truly understand the “woke” movement and how or why some parts of elite are using them and for what purposes, we should inspect the Cultural Revolution in China, to outsiders it looked like an organic movement of the masses, but in reality it arose from the factional infighting inside the Communist party. Mao was losing control to those who wanted to go on Soviet path of collective leadership, though he was sidetracked and after the failurees of the Great Leap removed from important positions, he had lots of prestige left and his allies controlled newspapers, radio and communist youth organisations, so those were mobilised on behalf of Mao. Both Mao and moderate wing of the CCP opposing him were revolutionaries, both accepted same common concepts and goals for society, similarly in the modern western society all members of elite accept the same liberal ideas and goals, at least outwardly, Mao used this fact as a weapon, he put revolution and revolutionary methods to overdrive. So that he could purge those who didnt show absolute loyalty towards him, with members of newer and more radical generation. There’s clearly a quiet war going inside elite ranks, because of the wealth and comforts of the modern society, there are no open purges like in the Stalinist Russia, but some retreat and retire, some fall into obscurity, some end in scandals and in court of law. My Cultural revolution model of explanation fits perfectly with our modern era. Conservatives and liberals share same presuppositions about the modern society and same liberal values that are driving the changes, things like equality, anti-racism and protection of minorities are seen as self evidentially praiseworthy things, which should be supported, therefore conservatives automatically lose under this dialectic, for they never can match the revolutionary and idealistic fervour of the progressive masses, or wokist red guard. Someone or something is using the same tactics as Mao was using, for he is old and full of fear.

  275. Bashibuzuk says

    Nineties were hell on Earth in Russia, but a sort of golden age in the USA and West (Cold War won, China hadn’t risen, booming economy, no war).

    Correct. This was partly due to the influx of hundreds of billion US $ from the former Eastern Block into the Western economies and the opening up of the former USSR and Eastern European markets to the Western products. We can think of this being the spoils of Cold War. China and Turkey also benefited from technological transferts and the opening of the Soviet market.

    Unfortunately, the West did not use this unique opportunity to create a peaceful global environment. Russians were ready to join the West and actually expected to be included into some common socio-economic and security structures. But both Western and Russian elites did not have the right mindset to achieve this. They should have tamed their greed to get there. But the late 80ies and early 90ies had Gordon Gekko as a symbol and supposedly “Greed was good!”.

    Greed is never good. It always leads to suffering.

  276. AltanBakshi says

    In the longer run their failure was a blessing in disguise, Russia integrated with the West would have ensured the final and lasting victory of American led socio-political system. China would have been surrounded and left with no other choices than of becoming a decaying autarchy or giving up their sovereignty.

    Sino-Russian axis is on whole another level in regards of military power than the Axis of the 30s, they have genuine capability to crush the liberal world order once and for all. Russia still has the potential to get back all the lands of the former USSR, now is time to gather one’s strength and wait patiently opening in the enemy’s defence. If Stalin would not been so kind towards the Western territories and been a real statesman, he could have easily made a country like Latvia majority Russian, just couple hundred thousand Latvians transferred, for their own safety from volatile border regions to heartlands of Soviet Union, and couple hundred thousand more Slavs moved to Latvia, and that land would now be an inseparable part of Russia, and Estonia’s and Lithuania’s independent foreign policies would be impossible, with the Baltic’s Russia would still be the pre eminent power on the Baltic sea and could immensely more project power towards Germany, Poland and Scandinavia, such a shame that Stalin got kind and meek in his old age. Next time it’s not enough that such countries are welded to be part of Russia, no! They must be melted and fused into Russia.

  277. Bashibuzuk says

    Altan, the majority of Russians just want peace and quiet. We have had enough of sacrifices made for empire, progress, brotherhood of men. Tens of millions died and perhaps a hundred million weren’t born at all. Probably no other population would have survived this, but we somehow survived.

    If US or China want to show who’s the boss by obliterating the other, then I want Russia to have no part in it. As the Russian saying goes: сами, всё сами.

    Russia for Russians, respect for the roots and hard work for a better tomorrow. That’s what I wish to Russians and Russia. And I wish Americans, Europeans and Chinese exactly the same. Vengeance, pride and greed are intrinsically negative. I hope we all will move past this.

    May all sentient beings find peace and safety everywhere in this Great Multiverse. May their innumerable minds become purified and attain the final awakening. May they cross the river of suffering and attain the other shore of liberation.

    Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, Bodhi, Svaha!

  278. Coconuts says

    You have made me realize some aspects of the whole Woke phenomenon that I did not think about. Woke as a narrative pushed by the elites makes absolutely sense if we think of it as of a weapon used by the globalized elite against the Western middle class.

    I was thinking about what I had written and that there is some difference between the Woke movement as it is in the US compared with other Anglo countries. The US one does have more ‘bioleninist’ tendencies, in terms of the street level mobs and activism it can organise, the recurring demands for wealth redistribution in favour of blacks and things like that.

    In Britain the elite origin of it is much clearer because these mobs are basically absent, instead it is emanating from state institutions, big business and online outrage mobs made up of middle/upper class progressive activists.

    This meant that fairly early on it was possible to speculate that it was a kind of liberal counter-revolutionary movement, deployed to contain and undermine the anti-globalist, anti-immigration populist tendencies that emerged during the Brexit vote and later when many white working class voters broke the habit of decades (often 100 years) and voted for the right wing party for the first time.

    Dividing the population into competing oppressor/oppressed identity groups, with the Woke elite and bureaucracy being the arbiter between them is another way of containing unwelcome political currents that otherwise might upset the status quo.

    Lastly, by the mid-2010s progressive liberalism was starting to look like it was running out of energy and becoming somewhat boring, which opened the possibility that other orientations would emerge or re-emerge over time. Wokedom has brought a new energy and new commitment to progressivism in a more fundamentalist form, especially in academia and culture, where it is becoming pervasive and there is pressure to bring everything into line ideologically.

    This is producing some turgid top-down culture and scholarship, feels very different to the late 90s and early 2000s when you could find a very broad range of opinions, political, religious and so on, openly debated (by students at least, but from what I hear now the stuff we used to talk about would be considered ‘extremism’ or ‘epistemic violence’). That period was probably ‘peak-West’.

  279. We have had enough of sacrifices made for empire, progress, brotherhood of men.

    Vengeance, pride and greed are intrinsically negative. I hope we all will move past this.

    LOL.

  280. Bashibuzuk says

    We should always hope for the better.

  281. My point is, your mentality is thoroughly Soviet. The Russian Empire spend centuries brutally subjugating various peoples without any introspection or soul-searching.

    WW2 happened a decade before the USSR attained strategic invulnerability with nukes. A generation later, its denizens enthused with ideals of “progress” and “brotherhood of men” gave it all up for jeans and Big Macs.

    Perhaps the Nazis were correct to try to exterminate them.

  282. Mass migration from South Asia is in a class of its own: the numbers potentially involved dwarf everything except sub-Saharan Africans. Their cliquishness and insane self-promotion attacks the core of Western societies – as you pointed out, they manage to steal more, capture more cushy spots, and in general suck more out of the West than almost any other migrant group. Yes, they tend not to be violent and are in general law-abiding – still their impact on natives’ living standards and opportunities ( for the younger people) has been more devastating.

    And what is the “core” of Western societies? If there was ever a group that is into self-promotion it is Western societies who have deemed themselves superior to all others.

    And suck more out of the West?? Do you seriously think that the US could maintain its current dominance without skilled immigration? Without skilled migration to keep growing, the US would predominantly be left with morons like you who because they cannot compete with skilled immigrants bitch about how they are stealing your job and disturb your thoughts of Western glory. I have managed large tech and finance groups in the US and by merit alone the best were Russian/Ukrainian/Belarus, Hungarians, Indians, Chinese/Taiwanese immigrants from top schools in their countries with generational Americans with a couple of exceptions near the bottom. (Their use was for more verbal presentations to top management/clients while the immigrants did the actual work.)

    But you gave yourself away with the ‘casual racism‘ phrase. Right, we are all ‘racist’ if we don’t submit and give up. I get that is what the likes of you think. But do you have any other thoughts? And it’s good to know that plague is under control under India, are other diseases?

    I don’t have a problem with your racism per se. I have a problem with your logic in equating skilled immigrants to some cartoonish version of your understanding of some of their compatriots in their home countries. It’s like “Ooh Sundar Pichai probably spreads cooties because they have cooties in India”. You display the kind of ignorance that is precisely why without skilled immigrants, the US wouldn’t be able to grow.

  283. You’re full of shit. Indians have the lowest level of cultural assimilation of all ethnic groups in the U.S. Considering their lower numbers as compared with many Hispanic groups, that’s impressive.

    This idea that host nations should be happy to welcome in foreigners who get rich at the expense of the locals is risible. It’s even worse when it’s from a parasitic, ethnically nepotistic, hostile group like Indians.

    So you’re saying that all these top Indian CEOs, lawyers, doctors etc got their jobs because of nepostism? That to take a random example that Indian win spelling bees in the US despite not assimilating? Educated Indians speak better English, know more English literature than the average native born American watching the Kardashians for intellectual stimulation.

    So who’s full of shit? Just because you can’t compete with immigrants don’t blame them for your intellectual short comings.

    Check out

  284. Prominent Indian and part-Indian people in US politics and government don’t help the case for this supposed “social and economic benefit” of Indians to the host country. Warmongering Republican liar Nikki Haley (former governor of South Carolina, to the discredit of South Carolinians); corrupt, vicious, and fraudulently selected Democrat VP Kamala Harris; and Republican grifter Bobby Jindal (former governor of Louisiana) are examples that come to mind.

    Sure all these politicians are corrupt and I concur with your sentiments regarding their warmongering and grifting. This is not unique to Indians but a feature especially of US politics – Biden, Hillary, Schiff, Pelosi, Schumer, McCain, Bush to name some native born politicians – actually throw a stone at random in DC to find more – are way worse. The warmongering and endless grifting is part and parcel of US establishment politics and naturally some Indians have adapted into this framework as well. (To note, all three you mentioned pretty much renounced/don’t follow Hinduism/Sikhism but took up Christianity as part of their grift. Thought not Indian, a prominent Hindu who is possibly the most thoughtful prominent politician is Tulsi Gabbard).

    And we didn’t have any pressing need for more cold-hearted fraudulent-billing doctors, surly motel owners, tax-evading cash convenience store owners, or overrated programmers and consultants who take jobs from native IT professionals and lower wages while often doing a mediocre job.

    Haha! Your addled primitive mind mixes up different classes and categories of Indians. There is a difference between Indian immigrants who come to the US from top schools and who become US citizens and those who do outsourcing work. The latter are indeed often mediocre and depress wages. But since the majority of skilled Indian immigrants who migrate via grad school/executive management are from the top echelon of Indian education (as are Chinese, Taiwanese, European, African etc) they contribute a lot to society.

    I’ve been up and down the US and many motel owners are surly – this is not specific to Indians.

    [selective links to crimes committed by Indian immigrants]

    You focus on white collar crimes of a few to smear the whole is ridiculous. It’s as if to call all American male whites serial killers since the overwhelming majority of serial killers are white. This kind of logical fallacy is precisely why the US needs some intelligent educated immigrants to make up for the decline in education in the US that produces specimens like you if it wants to remain a working nation that can at least keep the lights on (ie avoid situations like California and Texas).

    Russia shouldn’t make the same mistake that the USA has made in admitting this nepotistic, disloyal Fifth Column from India.

    Immigration of skilled immigrants is not why the US is steadily going down the tube and its infrastructure falling apart. It is possibly the only thing holding up the decline which is wholly due to the native born Americans, but folks like you unable to process this basic fact look to external factors for the decline. Instead they blame “traitorous” forces. Russians! Indians!

    Incidentally how are Indians “disloyal”? If you look at voting patterns the % of Indians who supported Trump actually went up (from 16 to 23 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-29/election-2020-indian-americans-favor-democrats-but-trump-is-making-inroads). It’s many white folks who voted against Trump (who incidentally welcomed educated immigrants precisely because he as a businessman knew their positive impact on all jobs) who caused his loss.

    And nepotism?! Before Satya Nadella became CEO of Microsoft to get it going again, it was middling along under the lily white fast-talking idiot, Steve Ballmer. So you think Nadella got the job via some Indian connections? Ditto for Sundar Pichai and the many Indian CEOs, executives and key workers of major and minor companies across fields in the US.

    Re Russia: incidentally Karlin who has spent time in the US and evidently met a lot of educated Indian professionals seems to have a high opinion of them (or at least the Brahmin fraction as he has put it). Clearly educated immigrants from any country who migrate to western countries don’t represent the “typical” member of their country but an elite fraction. Any country that doesn’t take advantage of admitting elite fractions from wherever to supercharge their economies simply because they detest the country they are from is simply dumb – ie basically run by people like you. If Russia had a choice they would want more skilled immigrants but it is simply that skilled immigrants don’t look at Russia as a good choice.

    While the Gulf countries employ hordes of unskilled labor, what’s less known is their employment of skilled labor from across the world including from the West and India to boost their infrastructure and technologies. Ditto for Singapore.

    Final thoughts: you seem like a bitter American who sees the decline of the US but instead of admitting the rot that has always been growing from within, look for excuses like skilled Indian immigrants who like skilled Chinese, Russian, European, African immigrants are helping hold up the country.

  285. Close, but from the data its:
    Kazakhstan
    Krygyzstan
    North Uzbekistan
    Turkmenistan
    South Uzbekistan
    Tajikistan