I visited it sometime in the early 2000s. Too young to remember any details, but I’m sure it was a nice place.
I translated an article by Egor Kholmogorov back in 2013: Europe’s Week of Human Sacrifice. (Incidentally, this was my blog’s first ever Kholmogorov translation).
TBH, I can’t be bothered being as Christian and charitable as Kholmogorov!2013 these days. If the French couldn’t care less about their own civilization, why should I?
Probably spandrell’s question is more pertinent.
https://twitter.com/thespandrell/status/1117851742375415808
Notre Dame is one of the most important icons of Western civilization. Your apparent disdain for it supports the belief that Russians are Asian aliens and not in any way European. Perhaps the neocons are right, and Russians must be exterminated.
President Trump: Send France some money for the renovation, not that it can ever really be restored. It’s horrible. This is the worst architectural loss in history.
President Trump: Send France some money for the renovation
No, that money’s needed for Israel’s next moon landing attempt. Priorities.
You’re probably not even a Catholic.
At least Karlin is Orthodox, and thus has a real identity in relation to this topic, even if Orthodoxy is by definition not Western.
If you aren’t a Catholic, then you have no right to use the term “Western civilization” to attack a Russian. It’s utterly farcical for you to beat someone like the Russians over the head with such a thing. In truth it was all the varying shades of anti-Catholicism that eventually covered the light of Catholicism and thus made “the West” into an empty shell of itself, much like Notre Dame Cathedral itself was – more of a museum piece than a church.
The Catholics (and to some degree the heretical offshoots) and the Orthodox are the only dissidents with a point when it comes to any question involving such a topic. Everyone else has consigned themselves to wandering around like Pilate – Quid est veritas?
Hopefully (likely) no one else here will be stupid enough to follow your childish suit. Go home.
The “liberals” treat Notre Dame Cathedral as a museum piece of anti-Semitism and the like. The Jewish Worker is complaining that anyone could be mad about the devastation of a church with implicit scriptural references to blind and faithless Jews
The more faithless members of the dissident right also treat the cathedral as a museum piece – a museum to their “Western civilization,” which they think can be had without the Church in its social fullness.
The modernist-inspired Catholics are hardly better – to them the religion is a social function.
Only about 1% or less of coverage of this event actually matters. https://onepeterfive.com/the-burning-of-notre-dame-cathedral-a-tragic-symbol-for-our-times/
The burning of Notre Dame is a loss for all humanity, Christians and non-Christians, believers in any gods and agnostics. It is a loss of an irreplaceable civilizational treasure that transcends cultures. Just like the destructions of the two Buddha statues by Taliban. Or like Napoleon soldiers using Sphinx in Egypt for target practice.
But you also have to take into account that many Russians remember recent burning of people alive in Odessa in 2014. What did France do? Support the murderers. Who was punished for that crime? Nobody, the criminals are now in power in Ukraine. Or mass murder by Ukrainian army and Nazi battalions of civilians in Donbass. What is France doing? Supporting murderers again. Who is punished? Nobody, the most efficient murderers are promoted, and France and the rest of the West approves of that. Some Russians remember NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999. Thousands of civilians were murdered. What did France do? Participated in the crime. Who was punished? Nobody, many of the criminals were promoted, and 20 years later NATO officially stated that the bombing was justified. These are just a few examples out of many (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, etc.). Whoever did not get the picture is hopeless.
So, any reasonable person would mourn the loss of Notre Dame. But no reasonable person would pity France.
Interesting coincidence: Today is Yom HaAliyah, a holiday in Israel celebrating Aliyah. Jersualem’s Al Aqsa Mosque was also burning in a fire today.
I thought that was mostly done with casino money or something. Sheldon Adelson primarily – might mean the Chinese paid for it.
Sorry I don’t really understand the comment.
Of course, the damaged aspect of the cathedral will be fully restored. The greatest loss will be of the authentic rose windows. All this will be recreated and nobody who writes here will notice the difference. But it is sad to lose the original edition of those windows.
Actual stone structure of the cathedral is all intact and tower that fell was only from the 19th century. So the idea that it is “destroyed” is a great exaggeration. Within a number of years, it will look externally, the same as before.
In the case of this cathedral, I’ve been there a lot of times since I was a child. The most romantic thing about it, is not that the cathedral is uniquely beautiful (there are better ones even in nearby areas of France), but its location within the city.
When we sat in services there, it was always in my memory relatively empty and that is why it’s quite funny to see how much media attention there is now when people perceive some “dramatical news story” there. People just like the drama – they don’t have any interest in Gothic architecture.
Number of people actually interested in Gothic architecture is small, which is probably the reason for these silly political comments, when this story is now discussed.
To be generous, I assume you are some idiot trolling for comedy. But to answer seriously.
As a generalization, American tourists, do not usually have much understanding of Europe’s historical culture and visit these places with an attitude of being aliens from a distant planet.
American consciousness, for whatever reasons, is quite distantly removed from the historical city and the Gothic cathedral.
Russian and French culture are historically cousins.
The building is not lost. The most important stone part of the structure is all intact.
It is very sad that rose windows of the 13th century, or this ancient wooden roof (that Victor Hugo romanticized), is destroyed. But all that will be restored over a number of years, so that it will not appear different to the original. (The sadness will be only that the restored parts will not be the original with its historical memory).
Also I don’t think France is like Russian post-fire restoration projects such as the bell tower Novodevichy Convent, going to have people like Grigory Pirumov stealing money from the budget designated for restoration of buildings destroyed by fire. We can assume will use a full unstolen budget and probably restore the cathedral to a perfect standard.
Russians, including most Russian nationalists (that I know of), are reacting to the event with sympathty like everyone else.
That said, I wonder what the reaction would be if St. Basils burnt down. Probably a lot of gloating over “the kremlin” being destroyed, blame put on Putlers incompetent mafia state etc. So I can understand AKs flippant attitude, even if I don’t agree with it.
What to blame, stupidity or antipathy?
The timing was kind of suspicious. Previous target, and the French government is pretty involved in a few Muslim conflicts:
,
I hope that Quasimodo is OK. Disfigured lives matter!
There were lots of churches bombed in WW2, but something about mention of the stained-glass windows made me think of St. Martin’s Cathedral at Ypres that was destroyed during WWI. I read some memoir, where a soldier mentioned seeing colorful fragments of the glass – even though the building was more thoroughly destroyed.
Anyway, it got me to thinking about the possibility that this fire was the result of conflict – Islamic terror. If this is the case, even though there have been many horrible events, and ancient architectural destruction elsewhere, it feels like it elevates the conflict in the West to a new level. The Pentagon or the World Trade Center – a building built in the late ’60s from prefab components – aren’t quite same thing, even though those were tragedies.
It really makes me think of the world wars, and since I thought first of Ypres, I thought of what that war was originally called – the Great War. What would this conflict be called, so that it would be remembered? The Great Diversity? Maybe, just WW3, if it reaches that level.
You also had a knowing world-weary scornful hot-take on the morning of 9/11, didn’t you?
A fire in Kemerovo which killed 70 people, caused a real jubilation at Reddit. Journalist Babchenko publicly rejoiced that in Kemerovo the russian children were burned in the fire, was then awarded by the Time as the ideal standard of European journalism.
https://m.vz.ru/news/2019/4/16/973408.html
I suspect Anatoly and others fluent in Russian will have some quality lulz over loshad’ neighing.
Meh.
At least this time French won’t ignore it.
https://twitter.com/HarmlessYardDog/status/1117947981528031234
I don’t believe you.
He’s hardly a journalist. A neurotic facebook personality perhaps. He is also russian/ukrainian, hence a high dose of misanthropy/cynisism. I can’t find any awards from Time magazine either.
Afghans don’t care for their historical monuments and buildings and keep using them as fortifications against small arms fire or even light artillery. However, me, as a civilized person, do care for the preservation of Afghani historical buildings and monuments. The fact that the French are currently degenerate (and may stay so for the rest of their history, which may be very short anyway) doesn’t mean that civilized people all over the world shouldn’t care for this.
I don’t know. I definitely feel in awe of the people who had to build it for generations. Sometimes some wonderful old building was built in a relatively short time, like the Parthenon in Athens or the Pantheon in Rome. Architecture is one of the few types of high art which is usually appreciated by laypeople. (Erudite music is often appreciated by them, but they prefer pop music. Old paintings are often appreciated to an extent, but I don’t think most laypeople – including myself – fully understands why Leonardo’s Lady with an Ermine would be considered a great work of art. It’s not the realistic depiction of the woman’s face, or at least not that alone. Great sculpture is usually appreciated, too, to an extent. But I’m certain that it’s architecture to which most people can relate to the easiest of all art forms. That, and maybe car design.)
That is ridiculous, lots of people enjoy Gothic architecture. Even humble low-ranking FSB agents.
I think the monkey post had more worrying implications for AK’s psyche.
https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/87iola/kemerovo_fire_crowds_call_for_putin_to_resign/
http://time.com/5476536/person-of-the-year-2018-arkady-babchenko/
The neocons are Jews, remember? They were probably DELIGHTED to see it burn.
https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/87hu4y/the_media_learned_that_the_fake_information_about/ comments
https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/87q9r2/thousands_protest_after_deadly_russian_mall_fire/
A bunch of lame Putin jokes, yes. No cheering for dead children.
Hardly an award for his journalistic integrity (although I do believe has was a target of assasination). The text itself is a navel-gazing tripe about boundaries of journalism, post truth etc etc. He was one of many awarded that year (Khashoggi was another doozy). They also gave TPOTY to Hitler and Stalin (Stalin twice)
The fine detail is lost for ever.
A lot of cathedral stone work isn’t original. A cathedral is like a living body – there is always a team of masons restoring worn out stonework. But they do it by copying the original.
This is more like the destruction of the Overtari chapel with its Mantegna frescos, or the bombing of the old Coventry Cathedral.
We should be making highly accurate 3D computer models of such places.
Apparently there is a highly accurate 3D laser scan:
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150622-andrew-tallon-notre-dame-cathedral-laser-scan-art-history-medieval-gothic/
Six months ago, in the ceremony celebrating 100 years of end of WW1, France hosted the flag of Kosovo* in Notre Dame – a “state” which not only didn’t exist back then, but whose founders fought AGAINST the French and Entente – and humiliated Serbia, the Entente state, by seating the president far to the back, while Muslim Shqiptars got the front seat.
In 1991-1995, 1999 and 2004 France happily supported Croats, Bosniaks and Albanians in their looting and destruction of centuries old (as old as 12th century) churches and monasteries – bombing Serbs in the process.
France happily cooperated with Ottomans since 1520s until 1798 against Catholics/Habsburgs – France even hosted Ottoman/Barbary fleets. During that same period, it was France which arguably saved Protestantism, especially with their funding of Swedes and eventual intervention in 30-year war.
How many French participated in sacking of Zara and Constantinope in 1202 and 1204?
On the other hand, Notre Dame bells rang in honour of 1389 and 1456 Serb battles against Turks, and for De Gaulle.
To sum it all up – Notre Dame is a historical and architectural monument, and more importantly, a Roman Catholic cathedral of great importance – part of great European heritage.
It is part of historical France, and is in no way related to Macron, Levy, Kouchner, Sarkozy, Hollande and other mixed, apatrid, Jewish and imported scum parasiting upon France and riding upon 1968. movement. They will be gone, France will recover and the French will survive the immigrant and globalist onslaught upon them and their identity.
“I can’t be bothered being as Christian and charitable”
The Kholmogorov article stinks. It’s a question of basic decency, not of loving your enemies. I have patience for neither the right-wing nor the left-wing using every tragedy, large or small, to grind their axes. Some madman desecrates a church with his own blood, because Western Civilization (TM), and some FEMEN perverts showed up the next day to mock him. Send them all to Bedlam and throw away the key.
It is also owned by the French state.
Do not donate any money to them.
France is a rich state, that collects almost 50% of its GDP in taxes. It did not think spending any significant money on safeguarding its premier monument was worth it. Who am I to disagree? I, too, think reintegrating ISIS fighters into society and combatting Russian infowar are much bigger priorities.
The Russian Ministry of Culture just opened donations for Russians to contribute to Notre-Dame’s repairs, to finance the cultural heritage of foreigners (many of whom despise them and want them dead, as evidenced in this very thread amongst other places). Even though Russia’s own cultural heritage is massively underfinanced and burns down every so often such as the wooden church in Kondopoga last year. But probably they deserve it too. Cucks need to be punished.
“1. On average, Russians will have more cultural connection to the building, than Americans.”
Your other comments in this thread are reasonable, but I’m rather uncertain about this one. Maybe it is increasingly accurate of the younger generation, but among the older generation there were certainly quite a number of Americans steeped in traditional Catholicism and who would have had a much deeper connection to the cathedrals of Western Europe than Russians, who have their own distinct history and culture.
Lol the Cathedral in Salisbury, and its famous clock, has a such an attraction even for the most brutal Russian tourists.
Actually you can see more tourists in some of the Cathedrals in England.
But overall, you can see there is no special for Gothic architecture today, despite this media attention.
I remember in Caux Cathedral , Rouen Cathedral, Bayeux Cathedral, Amiens Cathedral, (and others I do not remember) – small numbers of tourists there in the summer vacation.
Even in Notre Dame in Paris, where visitors flood in the day – I remember (at least more than 10 year ago) it is half empty during the evening services there.
It’s special because of its history, charm, use in literature and its romantic location. If you rent a car, there are more beautiful and impressive cathedrals even in short driving distance, in nearby areas of France.
The fact people make those comments, shows the lack of interest in the buildings and how they don’t go to visit Any others. Likewise, the best video on YouTube explaining about the rose windows in Notre Dame in Paris cathedral, might have one or two thousand views after a decade..
Looks like people did really overreact.
https://twitter.com/GissiSim/status/1118039061950865408
Rebuild it … in spaaace!!
https://i.imgur.com/zgcJrnj.jpg
Even though it is a disgrace that it burned, the good thing is it CAN be rebuilt (though I imagine having roofing lead smoke waft over Paris will cause some environmental trouble in the days to come)
When libraries burn, that’s worse.
2015-01-31: WTF Russia why do this to yourself! Fire in major Russian library destroys 1m historic documents: Leading scientist speaks of cultural ‘Chernobyl’ after blaze ravages 2,000 sq metres of Moscow institute holding papers dating to 16th century
1992-08-25: Serbia didn’t get an immediate missile strike in return for this. Pity. Burned library symbolizes multiethnic Sarajevo: Serbs being cancer.
1914-08-25: Germans burn Belgian town of Louvain: Germans/Prussians or Germans borked by Prussians being cancer.
Of course, any generalizations like that can sound quite stupid. Any particular American tourist might be an expert in masonry or architecture, who appreciate far more small things than normal people.
But overall, American tourists in Western Europe, do not give an impression of being much more culturally connected, than Chinese tourists.
The first comment is especially inverted, if you see how overrepresented to numbers, Russian tourists are for appreciating cultural heritage and events in Western Europe.
I have had the same experience in Laon cathedral, where we were literally the only people there. But Gothic cathedrals in major cities, like Westminster Abbey, are extremely popular. The lack of popularity of the others is because there are so many for the interested people to be split between and because many of them are in fairly out of the way places.
I think they do, although it’s hard for me to tell since I don’t speak Chinese. Chinese tourists seem only to have an interest in seeing the most famous things without the capacity to make independent judgements about what to look at or explore freely.
So main loss is really, just the wooden roof and the spire?
The spire is an addition of the 19th century, so not necessarily of so much value.
The roof will be reconstructed to look identical to before. (the wood might lose its charm of historical authenticity, when it has no longer witnessed eight centuries, but I don’t think a normal person could visit the wooden roof anyway).
https://twitter.com/BryceElder/status/1118053085195141121
Indeed
What happened to the Anna Amalia library in 2004 was much worse than what happened to the Notre Dame.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4rB5AqIUAEzMwh.jpg
https://www.dw.com/image/17853668_403.jpg
;_;
I don’t understand this comment. Should we not feel sorrow for the destruction of pagan Mediterranean ruins, Buddhist statues, the Old Summer Palace or Tangut artifacts?
What about the relics inside?
Did the Hunchback survive?
https://twitter.com/jewdas/status/1117860352149078017
Britain’s leading (explicitly) Jewish Communist organisation
People appreciate Westminster Abbey when they are in London – although a lot of it is marketed by “this is where Prince William is married, or Princess Diana has a funeral”.
In England, also if you ever study as a foreign teenager, you will be pushed into the Canterbury Cathedral.
However, interest in the buildings, to even want to visit many of the most important and beautiful cathedrals which are located near Paris – not exactly in a distant jungle -, is limited to small numbers of eccentric cultural people like my parents and perhaps your parents.
It’s an unusual interest, where the top ranked YouTube video about beautiful, Romanesque, Bayeux Cathedral, receives 1200 views in 6 years, while a video about any car can receive 1,000,000 views in a week.
The second video for the Bayeux Cathedral has 289 views.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bayeux+cathedral
But the Twitter account you link to is clearly on the anti-Jewish side and sounds like another boring typical commentator for Unz.
https://twitter.com/jewdas/status/1116487098121490432
When I visited Rome for the first time many years ago, I went to the Basilica of St. Paul. A mother with her daughter in a wheelchair and I were the only people there to venerate the relics. If St. Paul came to Moscow, there would be a line all the way to St. Petersburg of people waiting to venerate him.
Another time, in Milan, I went to the Basilica of St. Ambrose. By chance I met there a Russian priest leading a group of pilgrims. Otherwise, no interest.
Dmitry might accidentally be right.
Israel Shamir or Gilad Atzmon.
I read the important things are saved. Also the organ has survived.
You’re an imbecile.
That Sarajevo library contained 0 significant historical papers because it was not a national library – there was no nation, so no national history to preserve. Oldest “Bosnian” documents are explicitly Serb and even as late as 17th century the “Bosnian” Catholic monks write in Serbian using Serb script, as they call it. The article you quoted is mind-boggling propaganda – the death of multiculturality came in 1941 when Catholics and Muslims murdered and expelled the Orthodox and Jews – prior to communism, around 70% of Bosnia and Herzegovina land was owned by Serbs, and Sarajevo was second largest Serb city after Belgrade.
Furthermore, there is literally 0 doubt on who started the fucking war in Bosnia – the same subhumans that worship Islamic Declaration, murdered Serb wedding participants and ambushed a retreating military column (full of conscripts and non-combat personnel) after an agreement was signed to avoid shedding the blood.
Bosniaks broke the Constitution, staged an unconstitutional referendum, failed to get the necessary 2/3 needed, and afterwards declined every single peace offer – Vance-Owen, Carrington-Cutileiro etc. etc.
Why didn’t you post this incident?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Retribution_(1941)
The Germans repeatedly attacked a fucking library, in lieu of air bases and military forces – and succeeded in destroying more than a thousand medieval and early modern period manuscripts and documents, not to mention Ottoman era documents and correspondence.
Superior Teutons had it in them – apparently, demolishing Amber Room is an act of Europeanhood – not unlike the subhuman Franks that deliberately destroyed every single written document of Great Moravia and every single church when they “proselytized” there.
When talking about barbarity, why not mention Ustashe looting Medieval Serb churches and monasteries, going so far as ransacking graves of kings dead for centuries and holy relics? It was a regular occurence – every Cyrillic book in reach was burned in 1903, 1914, 1941 and 1991 by Croats.
Albanians burning down UNESCO heritage on Kosovo? Or Azeris and Turks demolishing graveyards (it is something of a subhuman speciality, seeing how Albanians did the same) and ancient monuments of Armenians?
Finally, the greatest culturocide was commited by subhuman Westerners in 1204 – the sack of Constantinople.
Also, it’s worth recalling how the relics of Paris’s patron were treated during the revolution. See “Death and Burial” in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genevieve
He was pagan, where suicide could be sacred, and he explicitly referred to the site having been a pagan site before a church was built there.
Why accidentally?
I’ve been in many cathedrals, because this kind of thing is my parent’s concept of summer vacations.
They are usually not very popular (at least 15 years ago), and in general in Western Europe, there is obviously less cultural appreciation compared (not specifically to Cathedrals, but to everything) than in Russia. In Russia, there are actually more cultural, appreciating people than in Western Europe. .
–
In Notre-Dame in Paris itself, I have sat in evening services when we visited Paris, many years ago. They used to play modernist music of Olivier Messiaen on the organ.
The Bishop whose service I remember visiting in Notre-Dame, was apparently a Jew: (ironically for the politicization here).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Lustiger
And the services in Notre-Dame was quite empty of people (I thought it was maybe 1/10 full the seating in my memory, where we were sitting on complete empty lines of benches). It’s strange how empty the services were in Notre-Dame, considering its fame even in Disney films and that it was a beautiful atmosphere.
Bedlam has a multifaith chapel. I hear the chaplain is quite accommodating.
?
I was talking about Dominique Venner. Was he not the one you referred to as a “madman?” He referred to the site having been a sacred pagan site before a church was built there. And he also referred to the fact that Catholics have abandoned the Church anyway, it was basically just a beautiful museum, so he didn’t think he was desecrating anything.
You don’t have to agree with his suicide at the altar to understand that he was no madman, far from it.
“Why accidentally?”
First, I myself have a fascination with Western European cathedrals, so I sympathize with you.
I am uncertain, however, that your average Russian is really so much more cultured than your average Western European or even American. Certainly my Russian friends travel widely, speak many languages, take an interest in history. Many of my neighbors, however, are just well-t0-do muzhiks who burn leaves in the yard because they are too lazy to make a compost pile and throw their rubbish in the abandoned lot next door rather than going for a walk to drop it off in the appropriate container.
Bear in mind both selection bias and differences not in mean but in variance. The apparent large variance of qualities in Russians explains many otherwise peculiar features of life in Russia.
But the bigger point I am making about “accidentally” is that there may very well be more Russians who care about those churches as churches, not as architectural monuments.
The problem in Russia is more low quality of some of the restoration works, and of officials like Grigory Pirumov stealing the money from the restoration funds.
There’s not a problem for Russians to donate to repair Notre-Dame. This is a good use of money, better than most charity donations. Heritage of medieval architecture, is not something specifically French, but is now part of a common civilization.
Then what’s your problem with Karlin?
“I was talking about Dominique Venner.”
So was I.
A generation ago it would have been widely understood that shedding blood in a church is the worst of desecrations, which as a historian this Venner should have known. So we can conclude that either he didn’t care, in which case it is no different from an atheistic revolutionary or a a Muslim radical attacking a French church, or he had gone mad.
And shame on Kholmogorov for trying to justify it.
Interesting coincidence that the fire happened a day before Venner’s birthday.
https://www.counter-currents.com/2019/04/remembering-dominique-venner-3/
Really Motherfuckers (Russian Ministry of Culture).
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/deadokey/20997595/106382/106382_original.jpg
But the Church in Kondopoga in this case is an irrelevant example – it will undoubtedly be restored (despite the fact that there are much more interesting buildings in need of restoration)
I assume “AnonFromTN” means you’re from Tennessee and not Tajikistan? If so, don’t you find it a little rich to list off all the things France has done as a vassal state in the American empire and then rule that they deserve no pity because of it? What kind of sympathy will Tennessee deserve if misfortune comes your way?
A large swath of Americans will always delight in the misfortune of Europeans as long as you have breath in your bodies. Seeing Babylon, “Old Europe” suffer makes you feel like Yaheweh still loves you more.
I read parts of his manifesto (maybe the whole thing, cannot remember) back then. I think he explicitly stated that he didn’t think it was a real church any longer: he believed that post-Vatican II the Catholic Church had been betrayed by its own cardinals and priests, attendance was minuscule anyway, and so he considered it merely a beautiful museum. His suicide was in part to draw attention to these facts – among others, that the most prominent church in France is no longer a real church. Therefore, he didn’t believe it could be desecrated any longer. By the way it appeared to me from his tone that though he was himself pagan, he certainly would’ve preferred a catholic revival to the victory of globohomo. So at least from his manifesto it seemed likely that he would never have done this, without the Church becoming a tool of globalism, abandoned by its flock anyway.
He “desecrated” a museum, or drew attention to the fact that it was merely a museum and nothing more. Or at least that’s he thought he was doing.
They are anti-Zionist but they are also proud Jews and hate Europeans in a way distinctively connected to Judaism.
This is propaganda, as much aimed at the Russians themselves as at Westerners: “Russians are good” and especially “we are good and moral.”
The city of my birth just donated €10,000 to the rebuilding of Notre-Dame, and some commenters were questioning that. Well, it’s not big money even for a medium sized Hungarian city. I don’t think Russian contributions will be very much relative to Russia’s economy either.
So basically just like the Pussy Riot “performance,” but much more heroic/courageous (from at least some viewpoints).
Would you call the members of Pussy Riot mad?
It is different because he doesn’t want the church be destroyed. He’d have been happier if it was restored, i.e. if it became Christian again.
But I’d have less problem with calling him an extreme radical than a madman. I certainly wouldn’t have responded if you had called him an extreme radical.
He’s a Ukrainian-Russian from the ex-USSR who doesn’t seem to like living in Dixie.
He is also rather scornful of his urheimat of Ukraine.
I feel sad for this disaster.
Well, Japan is willing to help repair it.
https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2019/04/1141607e292e-update2-japan-ready-to-support-france-in-repairing-notre-dame-cathedral.html
Sure, it is probably better not to try comparisons, about the average level of the population in topics like this, and Russian level in many areas can be embarrassing.
Among tourists, selection bias is very strong – tourists in Turkey, are not exactly there to visit Roman buildings.
But the fact self-selecting Russian tourists in Western Europe, are some of the main people supporting culture in Western Europe – is notable and should be appreciated.
Also fact in museums, art galleries and concerts in Russia, there is a larger domestic audience than in North-West Europe, seems quite clear from any of our personal comparisons.
I’m not sure about the distinction “visiting churches as churches” or “visiting churches as architectural monuments”.
Cathedrals expressed the public life of the city and its forgotten people. They were “total artwork” of medieval civilization. The architecture is embodiment of that lost world and its imagination. They are also the burial site of knights and kings. In the 19th century, the Gothic cathedral was “link to a different world” which was feeding the romanticism of the most anti-clerical men like Victor Hugo.
While it’s nice that the church still uses them, these medieval cathedrals can’t be reduced to the modern function of the church, any more than they can be to an architectural monument.
I was there about 20 years ago. It was a beautiful cathedral. They will likely make a copy (“newer and better”, as they say in the US), but it will be just that, a copy, like “The Parthenon” in Nashville.
There are many beautiful churches with historic value in France (say, Saint Chapel not too far from Notre Dame), but the thing about works of art and historic artifacts is that each one has its individual value and must be preserved. It is sad to know that France can no longer be trusted with preservation of anything.
You’d be surprised how much money gets stolen in “democratic” countries. Even if someone steals the whole Russian annual budget, that someone won’t even get close to the MIC profiteers in the US.
Twitter account is joking about the moon being antisemitic, the same way as any Unz commentator.
They are also Tweeting about how Jews cannot be categorized as “people of colour” and about how Jews are racist against Muslims.
It’s the usual Ron Unz, Israel Shamir and Gilad Atzmon commentary we can read on the sidebar, which I have skimmed here and found quite boring and giving an impression of mental illness.
Also the attitude to Israel/Palestine – it’s just chosen as the more effective strategy to troll the Jews, while still being socially acceptable.
When you go to any museum in Europe, including British museum, the museum of Vatican, Louvre, Prado, etc., there is a disproportionate number of people speaking Russian. No such imbalance can be noted at any McDonalds.
i see notre dame the same way i saw the buddhist statues in afghan.
destroying old stuff as collateral damage in war is one thing but in cold blood is something else.
There is Sagrada Familia Groundbreaking in 1882, but still under construction. That long phase of construction seems to evoke at least an echo of the ancient spirit, and it certainly was an ambitious design. I cannot decide whether it is beautiful or ugly, from some angles – like with the entrance shown – it looks weird.
Of course, the Christian faith in Spain is becoming quite anemic, judging even by the recent past, let alone the 1880s.
There’s one like that not far from where I live. We take the kids there to run around in the woods. At least the neighboring church has been restored, but no thanks to МКРФ.
Sounds like a real gem.
It’s completely different apart from the fact that they are all Jewish anti-Zionists.
Atzmon certainly (not as sure about the others) does everything he can to not identify as a Jew however. But this is an exclusively Jewish organisation.
They are also very concerned about stopping anti-Semitism, which obviously none of the people you named are.
Jewdas also hates Christianity, Europeans and especially European nationalism because it’s bad for Jews, which the other people do not.
Naturally you can’t help but see the world through a ‘what’s good for the Jews?’ lens and you like Israel so you might not pick up on this huge difference.
Yes, TN means Tennessee, not some stan. And yes, living in the US and paying taxes you become complicit in crimes of the Empire. A lot of people close their eyes to that reality, but this does not make it any less real.
Unfortunately, whenever any misfortune comes to the US, ¾ of the world rejoice. When the Guardian was still a newspaper and had a meaningful comments section, I remember a flood of comments in 2008 when Russia beat the crap out Georgia: the majority rejoiced that the US got a black eye, even by proxy. That’s the price you pay for being associated with the biggest crime syndicate on Earth, the US. But you don’t have to approve of crimes committed by “our sons of bitches”.
Don’t worry, it is only the roof which is destroyed and the 19th century spire. The important parts of the building have survived and now need restoration.
The stone construction of the cathedral was not damaged by fire, and even survived 13th century glass, and 18th century organ.
I agree, the Notre-Dame cathedral is very special and irreplaceable. Aboveall, it’s romantic location in the river, in Paris.
My point was about the hypocritical media coverage and the commentators on the internet – even though there are more beautiful cathedrals not far away which they obviously never visited and lack interest in.
No, the sluts aren’t mad. They are just ordinary sluts trying to attract attention to themselves despite having zero talent in anything. It is stupid that the Russian government swallowed that bait and provided those nonentities so much PR.
AnonFromTN, you are a scientist and so understand sample bias. Given that the median income of Russian residents is much lower than that of Western European countries, it is not surprising that the Russians who can afford to go on holidays to Paris are special. Although plenty of boors have cash to burn, it is nonetheless the case that among people with good jobs, a significant percentage are intelligent and sensitive.
Look, I am so sympathetic to Russian people that I moved my whole life to Russia a number of years ago, but I am fairly confident that the mean level of культура here is about the same as in other countries. What distinguishes Russia is, I think, the variance. Everywhere I’ve lived my friends are intelligent and cultured, and so it is interesting that I find I have so many more friends here than I did elsewhere, and also so many more boorish neighbors. Whatever Russia is, it is never mediocre.
Most people don’t understand the importance of having a Rome (or America). I do not want world civilization to decline to the point that prosperity comparable to early 21st century level will only return 2,000 years later.
The West aided terrorists to destroy tons of historical treasures in Iraq and Syria.
Zionists raided and plundered the Iraq Museum with the US invasion in 2003.
West under Jewish Control is the biggest destroyer of history in the 21st century.
Well, having a Rome (or America) is good. I do not want world civilization to decline to the point that prosperity comparable to early 21st century level will only return 2,000 years later.
Let me put the record straight. I detest crimes against humanity. I don’t care who commits them, I detest all perpetrators. It just happens that in 2019 about 60% of crimes against humanity are committed by the US, and another 30% by its vassals, including the regime now in power in Kiev.
In 1991 Ukraine had a potential to become a decent country, but it keeps blowing its chances again and again. Arguably, current wannabe Nazis are worse than any of their predecessors, but they represent a logical progression from bad to worse.
Where Gaudi designed the Cathedral is beautiful http://images.portalglobus.ru/Barcelona/sagrada_familia_i_by_aerostylaz.jpg
,
where modern architects designed – the Cathedral is ugly or candied https://www.rob-tomlinson.com/sites/default/files/places/la-sagrada-familia-passion-facade.jpg
The loss of gaudí’s drawings and models was a more severe (for European culture) loss than the fire in Notre Dame
How is this relevant to your opinion about the quality of life in the American South?
Being scornful of Ukraine can be a justified or not justified opinion – but that that is your opinion, I find it hard to believe otherwise.
I visited Sagrada Familia a few years ago. In my view, it is beautiful and very unusual. Even if you don’t find it beautiful, it is certainly unique and deserves visiting and preserving. Notre Dame was less unique, but more people would have found it beautiful. It’s a sad loss for humanity. The slow death of France and the rest of Europe is an even sadder loss.
One more big difference. Objectively he didn’t hurt the church – no one, other than himself, was harmed, nor was any harm done to the building itself. That’s pretty different from your Muslim radicals.
The Pussy Riot example is way closer, except a few details like him sacrificing his life (though Pussy Riot also risked prison at least) or that while Pussy Riot theoretically only protested the political ties of the Church, they in fact are part of globohomo which is anti-Christian, whereas Venner was pro-Christian. Though this latter might only have theoretical relevance.
You are probably right about averages. However, there were certain cultural standards in Russia that are very different from what you find in the US. Say, in Russia a professional who knows nothing about literature, classical music, painting, or the opera would be considered a moron. In the US, even very smart people tend to have incredibly narrow scope: they might be good in science or medicine, but never read any books, never heard any decent music, never were to the opera, and have no idea who Bach, Leonardo, or Dostoyevsky is. Russian term is “professional cretin”. As far as I know, there are no equivalents in other languages.
Neither do I. The strength of humanity is the existence of a variety of cultures, artistic traditions, languages, etc. This strength can only be preserved and work for us in a multi-polar world. Pax Sinica would be just as revolting as Pax Americana.
There’s pretty much the same term in German, Fachidiot:
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Fachidiot
Supposedly the term has its origins in one of Karl Marx’s works Misère de la philosophie from 1847 (as idiotisme du métier; apparently it was only translated into German in the 1880s). I assume that’s the origin for the Russian term as well.
Well, South is a whole different thing, not an imperial issue. It has its redeeming qualities (say, people are a lot friendlier than in the NE or California), but it has its drawbacks. Let me just say that at least half of Southerners are still not aware that they lost a civil war more than 150 years ago. As to high culture, it is pretty much as barren as most of the US. That’s why it is sad that Europe is committing suicide. Say, Venice alone has more great paintings that the whole of North America. Europe used to be a great civilization. Watching its slow death is painful.
Also Bildungsphilister (via Taleb).
Could be. Thanks for the info! My German is very rudimentary. Half of it is totally useless (coming from Russian WWII movies), the other half just lets you communicate with waiters in restaurants.
If I remember right, “philister” is also a term used by Marx. Funny how he comes back through most unexpected doors.
I admire your optimism. I wish I could share it.
Hungarian “szakbarbár,” in German it’d be “Fachbarbar,” so at least it’s not a literal translation of the German expression.
The concept of “professional cretin” was known to the ancient Greeks
Palaces in the vicinity of St. Petersburg completely rebuilt (after WWII) from the ruins.
https://s.gorodpushkin.ru/section/photovistavkaReport/upload/pers/51/img/vistavka/reports/000/000/043/img_0853_14449797307.jpg
http://russianasledie.ru/wp-content/uploads/bolshoy-gachinskiy-dvorec-250-25-pirozhok-vv.jpg
etc. Тhe quality is very high – perhaps the best in the world. Rather, the problem is the slow restoration – it goes from 1944 until now
I don’t know a single white American who rejoices when our brothers in Europe suffer — even if their suffering, like ours, is largely self-inflicted and was readily avoidable.
The only people whom I know who express indifference or even Schadenfreude at the Islamization and Balkanization of Germany, France, etc. are our Jewish friends here in LA. The man of the couple is a “patriotic American” and “Republican” partisan who never met a war he didn’t like the USA to get into or start, yet conveniently didn’t serve in the military and has no sons to be drafted. The woman grew up mostly in Russia, where her parents apparently did just fine, but hates and ridicules Russians and was not pleasant when she learned that one of our children wants to learn Russian. “A People Apart”, indeed.
God save Europe, America, and Russia alike.
How large were American and European contributions to help Russians after they suffered terror attacks on their own soil? Why are Russians held to a standard that others aren’t?
I certainly didn’t hold it to any standards. I don’t think it’s a big issue.
The old cathedrals of Europe have a certain symbolic value that is not really duplicable in old castles, and part of that is architectural scale – height vs. defensiveness. The bigger ones, the ones with flying buttresses are best remembered. Notre Dame is a celebrity among cosmopolitans, and it was made into a Disney movie.
It is probably more civilizationally significant that certain old churches in Western Europe have already been turned into mosques. Not to mention the fact that crucifixes are basically banned in public schools in France.
The virtue signaling among politicians is odd. Some of these people probably praised Castro or Michael Jackson when they died.
American conservative patriotards and Russian/Soviet sovok patriotards have a lot in common.
It is good they restore slowly, if the builders are working at high quality.
–
The worst kind of project – when the “restoration” project destroys the original building, the oldest in the city, and then they build a new one instead.
It’s not even a joke when they destroy one of the oldest building in a city, and say it is “restoration”.
For example, how the church “restores” the 1782 building near the center of Ekaterinburg, one of the last of the 18th century buildings in city, but which is on their own property.
Historical building
https://i.imgur.com/zcePLRj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FCkhI56.jpg
Before “restoration” – 18th century building is really intact.
https://i.imgur.com/66IAZ9a.jpg
An 18th century building of historical significance, was ready for “restoration”.
https://i.imgur.com/tLDSRcF.jpg
In 2013, covers are installed.
https://i.imgur.com/34ur05a.jpg
Then they put a very high fence around it, and behind the fence in 2017, they – destroyed the building. (Btw they tried to cover from citydwellers how they were destroying the building at the time even hiding the bricks)
https://i.imgur.com/zXwvDG2.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rBRhqiX.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozwmqayNiHY
Then “restoration” – means starting to build a new building with new building materials and cement mixer.
https://i.imgur.com/U4CNI5h.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/85yAKoA.jpg
What “restoration” will look like:
https://i.imgur.com/XDhaNvi.jpg
For example, more than 200 years old gate to monastery at the same site.
https://i.imgur.com/oRvNtgv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hHWODEw.jpg
“Restored” in 2015 – they destroyed the history, and replace with an ordinary door.
https://i.imgur.com/Wq15O9P.jpg
Was he wrong?
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/full-text-of-benedict-xvi-the-church-and-the-scandal-of-sexual-abuse-59639
Ok, so a Church built on top of a Pagan Fire Temple catches fire..
https://twitter.com/GlobalHindu2020/status/1117886930459299840
Shrug
This is not a restoration but a substitution of a normal Church in style of classicism by disgusting Byzantine building . For this Byzantine sect (ROC) it is a common thing. “Art” that they love almost always ugly