This week’s open thread. I am going to Volokolamsk again today – so there’ll probably be an update. 🙂 I will be staying for a day at the Joseph-Volokolamsk Monastery, will also try to swing by the New Jerusalem Monastery in Istra on my way back.
@ak
More notable posts since the last Open Thread in case you missed any of them.
Featured
- Epstein chokes on pizza.
- Michael Tracey: “The popular media definition of “conspiracy theories” is incoherent. They’ve spent three years pushing a debunked Trump/Russia conspiracy, but now will try to denigrate anyone who suggests a sinister explanation for the suspicious, sudden death of Epstein as a crazy conspiracist“
- NBC: “A guy who had information that would have destroyed rich and powerful men’s lives ends up dead in his jail cell. How predictably…Russian.“
- Jim Hoft: “What Censorship? Twitter Removes #ClintonBodyCount with 84,000 Mentions from Trending List After Epstein Death – Replaces with Trump, Barr Hashtags“
- 1 year bond yields <0% throughout Europe…
Russia
- The recent US sanctions: Worth noting US only sanctioned foreign currency denominated Russian debt (which Russia hardly issues), not ruble-denominated OFZs.Many US funds invested into OFZ (foreigners make up ~30% of holders) so probably their lobbying at work.
- Insomniac Resurrected: Myrotvorets Confirms Georgians Piss in the Wine
- Post of a Russian nationalist oppositionist – his friend suggested the protesters wear St. George’s ribbons, to which the libs replied, “Why not also smear yourself in shit? Or put on a swastika? It’s horrific to just pick it up, never mind to wear it.”
- Ivan Tkachev: “In Q1 $6.3bn of Russian exports to China was settled in dollars, CBR data imply, while exports of oil and oil products totaled $9bn. This means a large chunk of petroleum exports was settled in currencies other than USD. For the 1st time USD share of 🇷🇺 exports to 🇨🇳 went < 50%.“
- Female protester “melts down.”
- Ben Aris: “#Ukraine poultry producer is ending its production of foie gras as part of its efforts to improve its #ESG score. ESG is becoming a theme across whole region”
- Is it even possible to avoid the infiltration of Woke Capitalism without going full autarky?
- Anders Aslund: “The broader implication of Russia’s rising reserves is that Putin prepares for war rather than taking care of his people. The additional reserves imply less investment & GDP growth. Bad for Russia.”
- Is Aslund… Even half sane these days? If you’re actually preparing for war, you’d be drawing down reserves to import foreign resources & capital. What use are they once war starts? Nazi Germany maintained reserves of just two weeks worth of imports from the late 1930s.
- RT: Russia declares Atlantic Council think tank an ‘undesirable’ organization – what exactly is it?
- Remember that brouhaha over Putler’s lesbocide a few weeeks ago? Turns out that Elena Grigoryeva’s murderer was a 38 y/o immigrant from Kyrgyzstan with an existing criminal record who killed her in a “domestic conflict” after drinking spirits.
World
- Paul Poast (powerful surname): “But I found one point by @sarahsunnbush to be particularly revelatory: that the coding, regardless of the coding rule, is not consistently applied — US allies tend to receive better scores.”
- Study confirms what I have long claimed – US based “freedom”/”democracy” indices biased in favor of Washington D.C.’s friends & vassals.
- Steve Hsu on France’s atomic program:
- De Gaulle: It’s taking forever! … I want the first experiment to take place before I leave! Do you hear me? It’s of capital importance. Of the five nuclear powers, are we going to be the only one which hasn’t made it to the thermonuclear level? Are we going to let the Chinese get ahead of us? If we do not succeed while I am still here, we shall never make it! My successors, from whatever side, will not dare to go against the protests of the Anglo-Saxons, the communists, the old spinsters and the Church. And we shall not open the gate. But if a first explosion happens, my successors will not dare to stop halfway into the development of these weapons.
- Atomophilia is like a Rorschach test for patriotism.
Coffee Salon
- Peter Frost: Classical antiquity was a low point of human intelligence
- This July was the hottest month on record.
- Twenge, Jean M., W. Keith Campbell, and Ryne A. Sherman. 2019. “Declines in Vocabulary among American Adults within Levels of Educational Attainment, 1974–2016.” Intelligence 76 (September): 101377.
Culture War
- Steve Sailer: “Dept. of Strange Bedfellows Squared: Now @yhazony is teaming up with @nntaleb in teaming up with low-brow Science Denialist @AngelaDSaini.”
- Hazony: “Read this important exchange between @clairlemon and @nntaleb . Ignore the rhetoric and follow the argument. Academic papers on population genetics are fueling the rise of a political theory based on racial determinism. Academic freedom isn’t at all the only pressing issue here.”
- Taleb: “Behavioral genetics is largely an intellectual fraud. Resisting promoting them, @clairlemon , even if you like their message.“
- Hazony: “Read this important exchange between @clairlemon and @nntaleb . Ignore the rhetoric and follow the argument. Academic papers on population genetics are fueling the rise of a political theory based on racial determinism. Academic freedom isn’t at all the only pressing issue here.”
- Leonid Bershidsky blocks me on Twitter – looks like he is really attached to his idea that PUTLER dragged Russians into Crimea against their will. A journalist frand suggests this is a touchy topic for Bershidsky – he used Crimea as his excuse to get out of Russia – but his career hasn’t taken off as he perhaps had hoped it would in the West (went from chief editorship of large Russia media sites to a Bloomberg columnist).
- *powerful take* The German infinity mirror
This is the current Open Thread, where anything goes – within reason.
If you are new to my work, start here.
I used most of my savings to buy gold in the autumn of 2018 (precisely at the low point before the takeoff) and I feel really smart right now.
Sheer BS on the part of Bershidsky as I noted from the get go. Yavlinsky is on record for not being in support of Crimea’s reunification with Russia. Yet, Yavlinsky remains in Russia, while seeking the Russian presidency.
JRL/Bloomberg propped Bershidsky is overrated. Related:
https://www.eurasiareview.com/12102017-slanting-against-russia-a-us-establishment-pastime-analysis/
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/10/11/slanting-against-russia-us-establishment-pastime/
To be expected from “Morning Joe”. Related:
https://www.eurasiareview.com/13022017-bashing-trump-over-his-russia-related-comments-analysis/
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/02/12/bashing-trump-over-russia-related-comments/
A prime example of US establishment realism:
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/delusions-about-russia-72321
Start the article off with a tabloid bit that will not be opposed by neocons and neolibs. In so many words Simes had been called soft on Russia by establishment hack Natasha Bertrand (who JRL promoted “Yalensis” has called a “whore”):
https://eastwestaccord.com/paul-r-grenier-on-natasha-bertrands-mccarthyite-hit-piece/
Don’t get complacent.
I don’t mean about gold in particular, but your investing behavior generally.
Success in investing is dangerous.
Thanks, but I have zero confidence that I know enough to actually invest (in stocks, etc) and gold is the only exception – I think that it will always go up in the long term, the safest and most conservative option that will always have real value at least until asteroid mining takes off.
As an American businessman you certainly have a different perspective, but for me a as a 2nd world salaryman who saw his parents’ savings disappear overnight due to hyperinflation and bank closures in the 90s, the height of my ambition is to protect my hard earned savings from inflation and unexpected economic crashes/currency devaluation.
Interest on bank deposits here is less than 1% (usually significantly less) while the inflation rate is around 3%, so even if one trusts the stability of the financial system, just keeping money in the bank means they will slowly melt away without even being spent.
Superficial observations from a recent visit to Ukraine
Kiev
Mostly I was busy with work and only stayed for a few days, so spent much of my time in the one neighborhood where I was staying.
At least two things stood out. First, while I heard almost no one speaking Ukrainian, all signs were in Ukrainian. Second, cashiers, security guards, concierges, and taxi drivers seemed too intelligent and too good looking for their jobs.
Much of the center, especially the area around the Bessarabsky Rynok, is polluted by the worst kind of materialism. In particular, not only were there a number of prominently advertised places where the naked ladies dance, there were in fact a number of not so subtly disguised whorehouses.
Still, the city has a number of lovely green spaces, and some grand historical buildings, many in poor repair, but some, like the Lavra, lovingly taken care of. I hope to go back soon.
Small town
My parents-in-law were born and reared, and my wife was born, in a small regional center about half-way between Poltava and Kursk. Recently, we visited my wife’s relatives there, for the first time in many years. The relatives speak Ukrainian among themselves and spoke Russian to me. To be honest, I found the Ukrainian language, at least as spoken in this small town, rather unattractive, but my wife has warm feelings about it.
Not much has really changed since last time we visited, but the shops have more to offer, the center of town is fairly tidy, with a well-tended square, and across the street is a new, large schismatic church. Where did the raskolniki get the money and such centrally placed land? No one could tell me, since my wife’s relatives won’t touch the place with a ten-foot pole. For generations they have been baptized, married, and buried in the canonical church, which is further down the road, in the fields. There’s also a small “house of prayer”, which the relatives characterized as “baptist”.
In Soviet times, there were various local factories in town, which are now mostly gone. The main employers now seem to be the regional hospital and local government. All of my wife’s female cousins work as lab technicians or nurses in the hospital. Her male cousin is a king among proles, welding, drilling wells, installing heating systems. It seems he was always technically minded, his mother telling proudly how as a teenager he built his own snow-mobile with parts scavenged from the kolkhoz. His two sons seem likely to settle in the nearest city, one of them working as a programmer and the other studying engineering.
Politics didn’t come up much. One babushka watches too much television and gave me an earful about Putin and how she’s glad that America is now friends with Ukraine. I didn’t have the heart to tell her the truth about that latter relationship. Others were rather more circumspect and more concerned about immediate concerns, such as the lack of opportunities for young people.
Everyone has a large vegetable garden and raises various animals– chickens, ducks, goats, pigs. It seems to keep people sane.
All in all, I suspect that there is some truth in the stereotype of southern Russians and Ukrainians as a bit less intelligent but more stable and based than their northern cousins. Life goes on and maybe they’ll eventually get themselves sorted.
The long-term record of gold is that it maintains its purchasing power rather than growing in value. In the “short” term (which for gold can be decades), it has considerable volatility which is influenced by the commodity cycle, inflation expectations, and geopolitical issues. Gold also pays no interest or dividends.
You’re correct that I’m not capable of offering financial advice specific to the context of a Bulgarian salaryman. I have no opinion on the prospects of your country’s currency and do not know which assets are available to invest in.
And yes, obviously with current real interest rates bank deposits are not very attractive.
I can understand your attraction to gold and your logical fear of fiat government currency losing most of its value quickly in a crisis. But using most of your savings to buy any one type of investment or commodity, or any one property, is an unwise risk to take.
Diversification actually does make sense.
Perhaps look into relatively uncomplicated investments, IN ADDITION TO stocks and bonds, that have a proven track record. For example, if these options are available in your country: a real estate investment trust (REIT) such as FundRise, or a peer-to-peer lending outfit like Prosper or LendingClub.
And what about good old fashioned residential rental property? If you can hire a good, reliable property manager or deal with the hassles of tenants, repairs, and the like yourself.
Good luck and God bless you.
What would be smart is selling enough of that gold to recoup your original investment (adjusted upwards for inflation in the ensuing years). The rest is “gravy” and can more readily be risked.
It’s similar culture shock for me as well, after living some months in Western Europe, to visit my home city, and see giant billboards advertising brothels this summer, displaying in the main shopping street.
The only similar thing (billboards for the brothels in the center of the city) in Western Europe exists probably in Spain, Netherlands and Germany (maybe there are other countries?).
In countries like UK and Ireland, it’s not like this. I guess in America it be the main story in Fox News if that happened (outside Las Vegas).
my home city
You are from St. Petersburg? Upon visiting the imperial capital for the first time a few years ago, I was unpleasantly surprised to find the phone numbers of whores spray-painted on the side walks. Surely there’s no shortage of whores in Moscow, but at least nowadays they are not advertised so prominently.
Russian tourism to Georgia falls in July, year on year – but probably not to the extent that is hyped or predicted by the media.
Number of Russian tourists in Georgia in July falls 6.4% compared with the same period last year
July 2018, 169,000 tourists visit Georgia from Russia.
July 2019, around 159,000 tourists visit Georgia Russia.
https://ria.ru/20190805/1557170765.html
–
However, probably ceteris paribus, compared to theoretical July 2019 without the flight banning – fall is much sharper (as tourism to Georgia was becoming more fashionable this year, otherwise).
Also we have only one month of data, and flight ban only becomes operative in July 8.
Lol I’m not from Saint Petersburg, sadly, and do not know that city much.
I visited Peter for an extra day last month though (because of my flight arrangement), and that city is doing very well, and I didn’t remember seeing any giant billboards for whores there.
But in the city where my parents’ live, we have some impressive advertising billboards for the “massages” in the center.
Sorry i should have posted this here, anyway it looks like somebody’s putting some effort in.
http://www.anime1.com/watch/dumbbell-nan-kilo-moteru/episode-6
You kind of have to watch the whole thing to understand.
Sorry if anime’s not really your thing.
I started buying gold in 2001 when it was under $400. But I stopped, in part, because being constantly made fun of by normie relatives and friends I started to think I was losing the plot and going crazy. Never listen to normies. They know nothing.
Actually it’s possible to get interest rates of approximately 2% on deposits of gold depending on where you are last time i checked. That’s basically the swap rate for gold when trading.
https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/map-russia-iq-2017.png
Why is it that Finno-Ugric peoples, such as the Sami, Nenets, etc. tend to have much higher average IQs than the indigenous Siberians further east such as the Altai and Buryats? They seem to live in fairly similar environments, so one would think they would have similar average IQs. What sort of selection pressures might have led to this IQ difference?
I don’t recall large billboards in Peter, just many, many smaller advertisements, which I don’t notice in Moscow. Maybe they are there and I just don’t spend time in those parts of Moscow.
But I’m surprised this is a problem outside of St. Petersburg, though, since I imagined that whores advertise mostly to tourists and that certain locals know where to find them when they want them.
With respect to prostitution, my goal is conservative (minimize it as a social ill) and my method liberal (it’s an empirical question whether regulation is more effective with fewer unintended consequences than criminalization). But at the very least, there’s just no damn reason why a city should tolerate having its public face disfigured by such advertisements.
The same argument can be made for Mongolians. Mongolia has an average IQ of ~101, yet the Tuva Republic bordering it the the north has a lower average IQ by almost a full standard deviation.
Gold forwards have credit risk.
https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1160559490963595264
Principle will be surely same as for a supermarket.
Need more customers? – make a large billboard in the part of the city, where the most people can see it. I.e. streets with the most pedestrian and automobile traffic.
I don’t know anything about the legal framework, or what is the law in general.
But I guess it’s more in cities with the most tourists (like Peter, as you say), that authorities will be more strict about banning unaesthetic types of advertising. Image and aesthetics in general is enforced much more in cities which are visited by tourists.
Whenever I read people complaining about “too many tourists”… I wonder if they don’t realize the many little benefits of being a place more visited by tourism.
It’s not very good for the city image, and now school children are walking under giant billboards for a “massage spa” .
I wonder what the regulation would be to stop billboards.
Of course, banning whores themselves in Russia – is about as likely to occur as banning pasta in Italy.
But cities should be selecting what type of advertising is allowed, especially for billboards (which are part of public space and aesthetics of the city).
Thorfinnson:
Marco the quintessential Neo Con! What has this country done to deserve such a retarded neotard?
Seasoned investors tend to rely on normie opinions as contrarian indicators. In 2011, I was at a balcony section of a bar which didn’t permit drinks being taken onto it. I got into a conversation with a guy who was feeling rather smart because he’d managed to sneak a drink out. Somehow we got on the topic of investments (I think he was just eager to share his ‘wisdom’). This guy was assuring me silver was going to the moon, and that if I didn’t get in now, I was going to miss out. It’s uncanny that someone so smug was able to proffer this advice at virtually the exact top.
Anyway, a couple of things for you to consider before you beat yourself up for listening to normies. Do you really think you would have held on all the way to $1800 or whatever? Or do you think you might banked your winnings a bit earlier? On what basis would you decide? What if it had fallen to $250, $200, $150? At what point would you have taken a loss? Again, on what basis? There is a lot more involved in making money in investing than just being right on a directional call (which there is little evidence anyone can do with any great consistency anyway).
Sami and Nenets make up a very small part of the population (in the regions where they live), on this their IQ can not be estimated on this map (map of average IQ of russian regions).
I think Marco Rubio has already betrayed their strategy on this.
They are going to blame this whole Jeffrey Epstein scandal on Russia lol. They are also going to do the same with Pizzagate and every single other conspiracy lulz. Considering the whole “Russia interference” thing has actually worked on many brainwashed normies, I think this angle of the Jeffrey Epstein drama being “Russian interference” could work.
Prostitution is illegal in China, yet in Beijing and Tianjin I see constantly little stickers plastered on the streets and walls with phone numbers to call (and a “handy” picture to help catch the attention). I even encountered a small paper advertising services hanging on the door when I was coming home one day.
Prostitution is not surprising (though there are no open street signs, once I got used to it I can usually guess which women on the street or inside a building are whores).
But usually people just write phone numbers on the walls for things like changing keys for doors or acquiring a fake degree.
What I really wanted to discuss was not whores, but Ukraine. I guess I wasn’t inflammatory enough.
Here’s a joke I heard in the village:
An invading German soldier captures three fleeing peasants:
German to the 1st peasant: What are you?
1st peasant: Russian.
The German shoots him dead.
German to the 2nd peasant: And what are you?
2nd peasant: Ukrainian.
German: You can live… for now.
German to the 3rd peasant: And you?
3rd peasant: Rusyn.
German: What in the hell is that?
3rd peasant: Like that khokhol there. But wild.
an interesting blog post from Peter Frost
I would’ve put a lol on your joke, but this was literally the first time in my life that I had ever heard of Rusyns. It turns out they are actually the people that I originally thought were pro-Russian Ruthenians or Ukranians in the Carpathians and Galicia. Their numbers are small and they are literally borderline irrelevant. Still, a nice and desirable ethnic minority to have in your country compared to most other groups out of a large number of possible ethnic/racial groups on the whole planet.
pro-Russian Ruthenians or Ukranians in the Carpathians and Galicia.
I think that’s approximately correct. So far as I can tell, there used to be, and to some extent still are, many finer distinctions among the East Slavic speaking peoples of Carpathia– Boykos, Hutsuls, Lemkos,…. Which is what you expect with mountain folk. I can’t keep track of all the kinds of Caucasians, for example.
Welcome back!
Some of the Russian posters here insist that Ukraine is in freefall, collapsing, another Somalia.
It’s wonderful that you have miraculously made it out alive.
It seems that Ukraine has essentially the same major problems as Russia, demographic decline and corruption, but apparently even worse. I’ve heard from a number of Anglo-Saxon businessmen who do business in both Ukraine and Russia that the Ukraine is much more corrupt in their experience. And my wife’s relatives claimed that around fifty percent of young Ukrainians go abroad to find work.
That said, Ukraine is much more like Russia than Somalia, and I don’t see Ukrainian problems as insurmountable. Probably Ukraine needs a silovik rather than a comedian to cut some kind of deal with both the local bandits and the Russians so that life can stabilize.
In the grand scheme of history, even villagers in Ukraine have it pretty good. The worst case is, I suppose, that they’ll just muddle along, with normal, decent, relatively intelligent people continuing to make ends meet by living out of their gardens.
Ukraine needs political stability now, and then incremental improvements in their legal system, trade position, etc.
There won’t be any economic miracle (they don’t have resources like oil or gas). But considering their geographical position next to rapidly growing economies of the EU, they should have economic growth until they reach middle income level at least in the 2030s.
I think it’s best when they keep it like that and not more mainstream (small stickers on the phone box).
When there are giant billboards for the “massage spa” in main road of the city where my parents live, then even I feel capitalism is going too far (although I know it’s similar or worse even in “civilized” Germany/Spain/Netherlands).
But you surely would have got more profit if you had invested in an index fund tracking S&P or Nasdaq, which has increased by larger amounts in the same time?
So your friends were probably right, if they told you to invest in that kind of fund.
Interestingly, in Sweden, which is a permissive and yet strongly moralistic society at the time, due to the strong belief in gender equality they have a different policy:
“Nordic model”
It’s an empirical question, but it seems this might be the unique thing that contemporary feminists have got right.
Well, I have the impression that feminists in Sweden take the equality between men and women somewhat more literally than in other countries.
Child custody in Sweden upon divorce is shared automatically and there is a big cultural push to have fathers take out paternity leave at the same amount as mothers take out maternity leave.
Then there are the quotas and incentives to have not just more females in traditionally male occupations and subjects but also more males in traditionally female occupations and subjects (one of my junior high school teachers was once incentivised because he studied a subject which had a female imbalance).
Their policies don’t always have the desired effect but it is an indication of their mindset.
Interestingly, I found an anecdote confirming Swedish Family’s comment that learning a country’s language nudges one towards absorbing their ideology:
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/when-divorce-is-an-opportunity/552230/
The statistics, especially concerning the Somalis, are somewhat incredible and should be a strong rebuttal against “natural conservatives” talk:
If Liberal Democracy falls, it will be because of all its other faults, not due to “Eurabia” or “conservative Hispanics”.
Are you going to do a post on the White Sea accident?
Sweden policy against prostitution, seems similar to American policy. I guess the strange thing is they have the same policy, for different reasons.
In America, prostitution is illegal, presumably because America is still the most religious developed country in the world, and the religious morals are strong enough to influence the secular part of the population on this issue, if not on many others. While Sweden is one of the world’s most secular countries, but feminist ideology apparently has enough political power there to ban prostitution.
Well, it’s technically illegal even in Ukraine/Russia (which is why the adverts say “massage” on there). But in America, they enforce this law to actually stop it, as far as I can read. So in America they try to actually stop it, which is the internationally unusual part.
In Sweden, they also have the state capacity and social consensus to easily stop it (that’s already something which would be difficult in much of the world, even if feminists became powerful in e.g. Mexico).
I seriously doubt the Swedes have stopped prostitution, we have similar laws in Ireland and has made no difference
There have been a number of accidents lately (the submarine, the ammo dump that exploded and killed a few servicemen). When Ukraine had similar tragic mishaps, some anti-Ukrainians were gloating about a failed state, hopeless military, etc.
Russia is ruled by a callous thugocracy, such things aren’t surprising. Does the Ukrainian military have dedovshchina as well?
That’s an extreme exaggeration…
Probably. Though I haven’t heard of it in Ukraine. It may not be as extreme.
How so? I’d say the empire and the post-Stalin USSR were both more concerned for their citizenry. Putin et al have shown their true colors over and over from the Kursk disaster to treatment of “veterans” of the Ukraine war.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/russia-today-lies-about-me/
Pretty hilarious in parts, with some commenters suggesting that there’s a plot by Russian security services to smear Rod Dreher as an antisemite (the horror!).
This is not a recent piece, but since it’s rumored once again that President Trump may pardon or commute the sentence of former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich (Serbian descent for you Serb commenters) this 2017 interview with him is germane: https://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/October-2017/Blago-His-Life-in-Prison/
It’s striking how upbeat and optimistic the former Governor is. His wife Patti is also to be commended for standing by her husband even though her social position has been completely destroyed. Nice to see that his powerful father-in-law has since mended fences, though no doubt the political destruction of Blagojevich made that easier.
Some accuse the former Governor of lacking introspection and remorse. It’s certainly true he lacks introspection, the man is an idiot, but I still don’t see what should be remorseful over. His so-called crime was to call a seat in the United States Senate a valuable thing. Well, yes.
I hope that President Trump follows his instincts and pardons Blagojevich against the advice of his advisers. The man is a political prisoner and both he and his family have suffered enough.
And my acquaintance who has regularly visited and taught at university in western Ukraine for more than a decade — a Catholic who has never been to russia, and tends to adopt anti-Russian sentiment — states that “his” part of Ukraine is continuing to lose population, and overall remains poor, low in social trust, and not particularly hopeful about the future.
That’s just one man’s assessment, and he’s not Ukrainian, but I place some credence in it because he is highly intelligent, a person of good faith and honesty, and has great affection for the Ukrainian people.
I’d be so happy and relieved for the Ukrainian people if that happens. But can they really achieve sustained economic growth, and a higher standard of living, when their population gets both smaller and older every year?
I agree. I watched him on celebrity apprentice (he appeared when he already had prison ahead of him) and found him to be endearing.
He has not compared what he saw there, with what is happening in other parts of Ukraine, Russia or eastern Europe.
Also, western Ukraine is very diverse.
Isn’t Ukraine’s military, in fact, rather weak and out-of-date, even for a country with its small population? And even accounting for recent purchases and apparent improvements.
Isn’t Russia’s military large, modern, and incredibly technologically advanced for a country with its not-huge population? (Russia has fewer people than Pakistan, and far fewer than Brazil, Indonesia, Bangladesh, and Nigeria).
So, whether or not Ukraine is a failed state, which seems like hyperbole, is it specious to call its military “hopeless”?
Western Ukraine is indeed somewhat ethnically and culturally diverse. It’s also small in land mass and population, and not impossible to comprehend and assess.
And WE can compare western Ukraine to Russia and Europe, not just my friend: they all have native/core populations that are dwindling in number, reaching dangerously high average age, and already experiencing gradual widespread displacement (eventually, subjugation) by alien peoples. Peoples who are more self-confident, don’t hate or pathologically doubt themselves, are proud of their ancestors and cultures and mores, and actually do the hard and noble work of having children. Boy that’s cheerful, eh? I wish it weren’t so. But Ukraine, and western Ukraine, have no decent future unless things change drastically.
With the partial exception of Russians and maybe Poles, all the peoples mentioned are, as someone once described “liberals”, “people who won’t take their own side in a fight.”
Having said all that, I look forward to someday making a second visit to Ukraine, and a first visit to Russia. Right now our hands are full with a large brood of young children, which is a delight but makes long-distance travel quite expensive.
Dreher is a smart guy, an excellent writer, and I’ll wager truly kind and well-intentioned.
But he has neither the common sense nor the courage to be, or admit to being, even slightly anti-Jewish, which is presumably what is meant by the inaccurate term “anti-Semitic.”
While native population is decreasing in Ukraine, there is no displacement because nobody is moving there. And, unlike Russia, there is no native Muslim population (overt 10% of Russia’s population, not including migrants). So while population decline is bad, there is no replacement at all.
In what sense are western Ukrainians “liberals?”
Endearing or not, he’s indeed a crook. But no more so than our presidents, congressmen, and political-party officials and big donors. Tens of thousands more politicians and movers and shakers should be in prison with him.
No, he’s profoundly stupid and ignorant, totally driven by his emotions and feelings, in a way stereotypically associated with hysterical women. Also absolutely dishonorable, as shown by his despicable hit piece against Pat Buchanan (because of “racism”), in a magazine founded by Buchanan when Dreher was cheerleading for the Iraq war.
He’s really beneath contempt. His retard blog is occasionally good for laughs though. I have no doubt that Russian security services run all manner of dubious disinformation schemes, but the idea that they’d concoct a plot to smear Rod Dreher as antisemite is pretty funny.
He also trusts news far too much, just like the recent one here: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/merciless-america-killed-jimmy-al-daoud/
When the more rational of his readers call him on it he will sort of kinda not issue an evasive apology.
But I think his funniest article was when he basically wrote that he personally believed that Steve Sailer was right about HBD, but the truth (or what he perceived as the truth) shouldn’t be allowed because how people might feel and how it would affect society and the perception of racial inferiors.
Dreher often criticizes Judaism. He blames Jews for the death of Christ. Also, he criticizes Israel, and believes that this state is not the ally, but the enemy of the West. Dreher also thinks that USA has to stop to aid Israel. Also, he thinks the Zionism is pure evil
This guy sounds pretty interesting. Can’t wait to check out his blog!
It’s no match for Russia but is probably a lot stronger than any other eastern or central European military, other than Poland’s.
A couple of years ago (2017?) AK mentioned that the level of training accidents resulting in deaths or injuries per capita suffered by Ukrainian troops (probably a decent measure of professionalism) had declined significantly from 2014 and was down to Russian levels circa 2003 (IIRC). It has certainly continued improving since then. In terms of training or troop quality Ukraine’s military is now probably comparable to that of Russia in the mid 2000s.
Ukraine has gone from 15,000 in 2014 to 200,000 soldiers. Plus 100,000s trained reserves. Ukraine doesn’t have much of an air force or navy and won’t in the near future (these are expensive) so it has focused on missile and rocket development. New ones are at modern standards; mass production has begun and Ukraine should be fully equipped with them within 2-3 years or so.
Mr. Hack posted this article about Ukraine’s impressive Neptune missile project and the work that made it possible:
https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/neptune-cruise-missiles-can-protect-ukraines-shores.html
So Ukraine’s military currently, is hardly hopeless. That is just anti-Ukrainian wishful thinking, like the idea of Ukraine being another Somalia.
:::::::::::::
Anyways, my point was that when a Ukrainian arms depot blew up, or some soldiers died in training exercises, anti-Ukrainians were all over such news, claiming that it proved that Ukraine was in utter shambles, that the military reforms were meaningless failures, etc.
Now we see Russia’s military having its own share of debacles and these voices are very silent about it.
Here is an article summarizing various recent bad news from Russia’s military:
https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-military-rough-few-weeks-with-fires-explosions-2019-8
Is this a Ukrainian arms depot?
https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5d485150100a2474d45c7122-960-720.jpg
Nope, a Russian one.
The picture can be used in anti-Ukrainian propaganda. This Russia (from your picture)
https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5d485150100a2474d45c7122-960-720.jpg
And this Ukraine
https://arhano.ru/sites/default/files/vzryvy-na-skladah-v-balaklee-harkovskaya-oblast-23-24_03-1-0-00-31-403.jpg
feel the difference
But seriously, the army should be evaluated on its combat capabilities. I am absolutely not a fan of the Russian army, but after the “achievements” of the Ukrainian army on the battlefield, my heart is filled with joy – how good that we are not Ukraine.
Accidents are a questionable criterion – they can be an indicator of collapse, but can also be an indicator that the military is actively taught military Affairs. If I remember correctly recently in the U.S. Navy there were a number of accidents, there was even an article about it on this resource.
Among immigrants (especially the chronically unemployed Somalis), divorce is a common social security scam. By getting a formal divorce, they become eligable for more benefits. However they still live together.
Yes, hopefully Trump pardons Rod Blagojevich.
You are right in that it was foolish of Rod to be honest about the Senate seat. Regardless, if Trump actually pardons Blagojevich, that would be a modest win for all ethnic Serbs everywhere. It would somewhat improve our collective prestige.
Ideally, Trump will also completely withdraw the USA and NATO from Kosovo and Bosnia, but i’m not holding my breath on that one …
Russian explosion looks a lot bigger (according to the picture).
Do you also believe it is always 2014 in Ukraine?
I agree about training accidents and accidents that occur during the development of new weapons (including the recent failed missile launch that cost 7 Russian engineers their lives). Again, my point was that the silly argument that mishaps by the Ukrainian military indicate the army’s uselessness can be applied to Russia’s many recent mishaps.
I think I mentioned that once, when some anti-Ukrainian was making a point about training deaths in the Ukrainian military.
Seriously , without too much intrusion.what is your job?
I would not normally be interested in that type of thing, but from reading your posts over the months I initially thought you must be a scientist, then a lawyer, then a war historian……now I am thinking maybe that you’re in finance
If interested – I am a civil engineer
Thorfinnsson is the 21 century renaissance man, par excellence! I once dubbed him as the new F Scott Fitzgerald for his abilities to depict the plight of the blue collar worker and other and various sundry proles dotting the American landscape (and also those of the upper classes too) especially in the rural countryside. He really should try his hand at writing a novel...SERIOUSLY.
I wonder what does the recent nuclear incident imply regarding the state of the 9M730 Burevestnik program. Does it mean that Russia is actually still far from producing a working prototype like the Americans claimed previously, or was it just one unsuccessful test on the final stretch (last year when Putin unveiled the “superweapons”, he claimed that all are either complete or near completion).
I really hope it’s the latter, because a breakthrough in nuclear reactor miniaturization has so many promises, including for space travel.
All the lazy comparisons with Project Pluto (including in the latest thread on Steve Sailer’s blog) are missing that Project Pluto was the size of a bus, while Burevestnik is a cruise missile with the size of a normal cruise missile. And it cannot be an RTG if it’s able to provide power for atmospheric flight.
hahahahaha! That’s as retarded as showing a video of a shocking car crash or selfish parking in the UK or Germany and using that video as “evidence” that driving or parking there is weaker than in Russia
…or showing a snowy day in Barcelona as using that as evidence that Barcelona is colder than Calgary you retarded POS
Even more so of any attempt to equate the ukrop failure military with Russia’s – a highly professional, successful group backed by a very strong arms industry that exports weapons to a degree Kiev could only dream of.
that arms depot is also much further away from settlements than any of the ukrop catastrophes were
the only thing Bandera-Nazi defeats Russia’s is on higher suicide rates you cretin
Anatoly, if you catch some time for gaming, I recommend trying the new Age of Wonders: Planetfall.
There are Slavic Space Dwarves and Cybernetic Transhumanist Space-Undead among the factions (also dinosaur-riding tree-hugging Amazons, psionic insectoids and a bunch of others).
Laugh though people may, this is how actual Serbian nationalists think.
Regarding the pre-2014 military, I’ve heard some really funny (we can say it now) stories about how unprofessional Ukrainian, among others e.g. Russian and Canadian, peacekeepers were in the 1990s.
Ukraine’s military, is the second main descendant armed forces of the USSR. They inherited part of the military of a superpower.
So it’s not a special achievement, that it is better than e.g. military of Hungary and Slovenia.
On the other hand, there has been very significant decline from some of the superpower level of equipment they inherited.
For example, Ukraine inherited 19 Tu-160 strategic bombers. This equipment suitable for a superpower.
Due to the lack of material and technical resources for operation, 8 were given to Russia in exchange for natural gas, and 10 were destroyed in 2009 (including in front of visiting American senators). One is only in a museum.
https://tvzvezda.ru/storage/news_other_images/original/2017/06/29/7473db12c0c24cfcb6b56d5f6726cfb9.jpg
http://www.rosinform.ru/assets/files/uploads/tu-160_utilization.jpg
There was supposed to be a successful test in early 2019.
https://tass.com/defense/1045012
“Let me teach you about your country, your history, your society…”
Yes, these are the tests that the Americans claimed were not actually successful.
If all of them resulted in crashes, someone should have noticed related rad. spikes.
You mean the USSR whose leadership dissolved it with exactly zero care for what happened to the citizenry?
It’s like I’m reading Tankie nonsense from Reddit
The Russian standard of living (such as it is) is the highest it’s ever been, simply looking at the statistics that Karlin and other non-Sovok bloggers post is enough to realize this
The Kursk incident and unfortunate fate of some fighters from the Ukraine is irrelevant by comparison
Yes it sucks, but getting overly flustered by these events is a mistake that retard nationalists often make
The same nationalists who demanded that Putler bomb Kiev in order to avenge Odessa, yes it would’ve been cathartic for them but also a geopolitical disaster
This is a dirty business and it requires a cool head
Preferably, while drunk
I prefer him when he’s sober and much more lucid…
LOL.
So a dummy.
In Sovok-land, engineering (particularly civil engineering) was the equivalent of what a degree in “business administration” or “education” is in the USA. It’s for people sort of smart enough to get a post-secondary degree but not smart enough to pursue something like (in the USA) engineering. Or at best, slackers. There are hordes of such people.
You probably got your degree at some provincial institute, too.
Ukraine ‘s military had fully degraded by 2014. So the modern improved state is quite an achievement.
I’m a senior business executive at an SME in the manufacturing sector.
I could probably work in the financial sector without much retraining.
BTW Anatoly it just came to my attention from another site that some of the South African white farmers did take the offer from Russia. They had to each raise $100,000 US as the Rand is worth practically nothing now and they purchased leases on farmland in Russia somewhere…not sure of exact location. I don’t think it was anywhere near the 15,000 farmers offered the deal, but even that could change soon as South Africa is quickly imploding and I see it only getting worse before getting better (if ever) for them…
So only time will tell how many ultimately wind up there; but I think it will be a good thing for both parties…
Just thought I would let you know!
And Russia’s life expectancy before WWI was about 30 years. But the Romanovs, however deluded, did care about the Russian people, a did the later USSR. It was liberals like Yeltsin and co. who pushed to end the USSR, consequences be damned. Sure, things are better than they were in the 1990s, but given Russia’s basically unmatched human capital and natural resources that shouldn’t be a measuring stick (not just in income, but also infrastructure, rule of law, etc.)
Interesting assessment of the “atomic archive” which the Israelis claim to have acquired about Iran’s nuclear weapons programme in the late 1990s/early 2000s:
https://www.belfercenter.org/sites/default/files/files/publication/The%20Iran%20Nuclear%20Archive_0.pdf
If authentic, it shows:
– There was a coherent nuclear weapons programme, with the decision taken from the top, including then president Khatami (so not some “rogue” actor like parts of the Revolutionary guards). Goal was an underground nuclear weapons test and building at least five nukes.
– The programme was more advanced than had been known; while it was detected in outline by foreign intelligence services and the IAEA, apparently Iran was able to completely hide many aspects and sites. There was substantial help by several foreign scientists. In general, this seems to raise some serious questions about the existing non-proliferation regime.
– Most of the programme was stopped in late 2003; there was some coordinated work though afterwards on specific technical issues, which might indicate an intent of keeping an option to restart the programme. No information exists on what happened after the mid-2000s.
Unfortunately there don’t seem to be any answers to some of the most important questions, e.g. why did Iran decide on that programme in the late 1990s, what was the strategic raionale behind it, why did they stop in 2003, and what is the current thinking of Iran’s leadership on nuclear weapons.
Obviously the Israelis pursue their own agenda with publishing those documents (and who knows if they doctored some of it), but interesting material in any case.
Georgia economy was ok in the first half of year – not counting from end of June, the textbook example of their nationalists damaging their tourist sector.
Armenia with strong growth at the moment.
But Ukraine growth, significantly slower than Armenia/Georgia… only for 3%.
hahahahahaha……this is like being “attacked” by a hybrid of Phillip Kirkorov and Stephen Hawking!!!
I had been expecting to make self-deprecating comments about how boring and overrated civil engineering is ,because I am used to people over-praising it – but you’ve almost certainly just probably recycled some spambot garbage directed another person exposing you as vermin, from a different profession ,and ridiculously transposed it on to myself!
Anyway I won’t say whether I did go to University in Moscow or SP ( with a semester of foreign study)- but to call the rest of the country and it’s academic institutions “provincial” is retarded in the extreme.
……and telling any western engineering company or University that I am Russian civil engineer only stirs up positive connotations for westerners you cretin – not as much as subjects as Materials Science or some of the other branches of chemistry and physics or performing arts….. but still very high – much like “Russian woman” stirs up connotations of beautiful.
Not to mention how moronically thick you would have to be to not think that civil engineering is a vital and highly skilled profession – vital for any country but even more important for Russia in it’s Tsarist and USSR history to survive given it’s size and logistics you idiot! Infrastructure projects were practically the main thing cementing the central asian states as happy and functional in the USSR – and at peace with each other, not to mention how important it was for Banderastan
But then again, for a (pseudo) Ukrop as yourself engineering, maths or just straightforward literacy is associated with “Russian imperialism” – particularly when all infrastructure in the country is entirely because of Russia – so it “must be destroyed” LOL , Khokholism in the extreme.
Anyway , given how non-existent/useless your level of Russian language is – I have found somebody to teach you, good guy, used to be the son of the Ukrainian President and subject of this article here:
https://vz.ru/news/2019/8/13/992163.html
Falling population will increase per person income/wealth. So it could be useful from that perspective, as priority for Ukraine should be to attain somehow an acceptable income for existing population.
However, aging population could create a worse dependency ratio (more pensioners relative to working age population).
–
If we look at per capita income, I made a table in IMF website, comparing Ukraine with Latvia, Kazakhstan and Georgia.
Ukraine is maybe 20 years behind countries like Latvia or Kazakhstan. Latvia is wealthy because it is in the EU, while Kazakhstan is wealthy because it has oil.
But a more fair comparison is to Georgia. Georgia has a similar situation – no oil/gas and no EU membership, like Ukraine.
According to IMF, Ukraine is about 4-5 years behind Georgia. In 2024, Ukraine should attain similar income which Georgia has now in 2019. So there is no very good scenario for Ukraine (they will be poor at least into 2030s), but hopefully some kind of incremental improvement for the economy.
https://i.imgur.com/01kSKqu.jpg
https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2019/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=40&pr.y=12&sy=2019&ey=2024&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=915%2C926%2C916%2C941&s=NGDPDPC%2CPPPPC&grp=0&a=#download
On YouTube – he was arguing in English about Premier League football games on comments, and subscribed to ordinary popular America/English YouTubers and gaming channels.
But also was subscribed a few Russian channels like Vecherniy Urgant. Didn’t see anything about Ukraine.
LOL, Pravda glaz kolyt. Your emotional response is very funny 🙂
Smart Soviet-era Russians who were inclined towards math or science studied physics, chemistry, math, biology, medicine etc.
Dumb ones became civil engineers and built crappy Soviet roads and buildings. That would be you.
In a capitalist country like the USA, people who aren’t terribly bright, or are too busy drinking, study “business administration” if they can’t handle finance, engineering, pharmacy, the hard sciences etc. They end up working in cubicles.
Something like civil engineering served as a repository for such people in non-capitalist Sovok. This explains Sovok’s rotten infrastructure.
Some reading material on Ukrainian peacekeeping missions in the 1990s-early 00s
http://bintel.com.ua/en/article/viktor-hvozd-being-peacekeepers-is-not-a-walk-to-the-war/
https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg13380.html
I had no idea about deployments to Iraq
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4310987.stm
My understanding is that they just put more aggregate in the concrete mix.
I believe the rationale was that in the Russian climate concrete cracking was inevitable, so increasing the aggregate ratio would “prematurely” crack the concrete (by Western standards) but in fact increase the longevity of the structure and reduce maintenance requirements. Many more micro-fractures means fewer macro-fractures. Or something.
This explains much of why the FSU looks terrible, but the infrastructure is in fact functional.
I’ve heard about the Michigan DOT doing some road building experiments on these lines in the past decade.
Gerard2, being an actual civil engineer, probably has a more sophisticated take on this.
Why are you such a worthless cuck?
It looks terrible and it is barely functional. Roads were awful even in 1990, and even in areas with a mild climate such as Ukraine.
BTW, here is a ranking of post-secondary in eastern Europe:
https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/eeca-rankings/2018
The ones involving civil engineering are near the bottom:
https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/eeca-rankings/2018
“Moscow State University of Railway Engineering” and various technical institutes 250-300
“National Research Moscow State University of Civil Engineering ” is at 181-200.
::::::
Only under Putin is Russia achieving a Western level of road and other construction.
To each his own Thorfinnsson, and as it’s already been poignantly pointed out within this thread, your propensity to offer consumate opinions on a wide array of different topics points to your eclectic brand of intellectualism. Darn if I don’t derive greater pleasure from your abilities to portray the inner dilemas facing human relations as within the neighboring thread where you touch on why elites fail to deliver when it comes to ethical behavior, rather than on the tensile strength of different sorts of “concrete”. But then again, I guess this is what makes Thorfinnssson, Thorfinnson. 🙂
Thorfinnsson:
An engaging portrait of the ex-Gov. I like both the guy and the wife who had been portrayed as the personification of evil by the NYC tabloids! But he still publicly professes the liberal platitudes. Maybe it’s time for them to be dropped since he’ll never again run for public office. But then they might still prove useful if he winds up as a motivational speaker.
I sincerely hope that Trump will issue his pardon. And make it a double along with Roger Stone!
The Oligarchy was all ex-party bugmen who didn’t give a rats ass about the people
Human capital which got skullfucked 3 times in the span of one century, to the point where they’ve developed Stockholm syndrome for some of their tormentors
The inability to utilize the resources at hand is testimony to the Communists failure and indifference
Several plans were suggested that would improve living conditions for the USSRs citizens but all were rejected because those who made the decisions simply had no incentive for it (one of these was supposed to be an early internet)
There have been huge improvements in infrastructure and more on the way, look up the 13 plans, hell even Karlin wrote about those
Well homicide has been going down year after year, so theres that
Following up on an earlier open thread discussion:
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the-inside-story-of-how-mcdonald-s-innovated-the-quarter-pounder?utm_source=pocket-newtab
The most influential Muslims in Russia:
https://www.lowkickmma.com/khabib-nurmagomedov-ranked-as-3rd-most-influential-muslim-in-russia/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LowkickMma+%28LowKick+MMA%29
Stop getting so easily baited by autists, you’re making us look bad
You will never change their mind
Lol. I was never even trying to change the opinion of that worthless autistic cuck on anything.
Still, you may be right, maybe i do get baited too easily when it comes to certain matters.
The invasion of their neighbour would explain why a country would bury an alleged nuclear weapon programme that is not advanced enough to defend them, but could be used as an excuse to destroy them.
Serbian posters are as tedious as the Ukrainian ones.
The Soviet Union made a deliberate choice not to favor automobiles. The railroads in the USSR routinely handled the heaviest traffic ever run on rails. So these #250-300 ranked MSU grads in railway engineering got the job done.
Incidentally civil engineering is in North America considered the “softest” of the engineering disciplines, along with industrial engineering.
That’s not to say they’re dumb or do bad work. The field is simply mostly less demanding than other engineering disciplines.
https://www.gold.ac.uk/news/carbon-neutral-plan/
Goldsmiths College of the University of London is banning sales of beef (and bottled water) to fight…climate change.
There’s a war on beef.
Soviet engineers designed some of the best and most innovative infrastructure in the world, which is still admired today.
Car ownership rate in Russia has increased by more than 100% since 1999.
As with car ownership rate everywhere, increasing it is not necessarily a good thing. Imagine if more than 20,000 people were killed each year by public transport in Russia – 20,000 people killed while in trams and metro journeys.
If you’re talking about the panel buildings from the 1960s-1990s.
These were extremely intelligent designs, relative to the specifications and requirements of the time. They are designed for a limited life-span, however, which is now generally been exceeded.
This is true.
It’s been 30 years, however, since the twilight days of the Soviet Union – we should expect improvement in this time, especially considering the international technological advancement in this epoch, and growth in price of specific commodities, which are exported.
Standard of living improvement between 1959-1989 was a lot more significant, than between 1989-2019, however. Even if we exclude the 1990s – improvements between 1999 to 2019, will be less than 1969-89.
So, the improvements are less than they should have been, or that an optimist would have expected, at least.
It’s probably inherent to the economic stage though, and the economy of Russia is still in the “middle income trap”.
I’m surprised it’s not pork (kill two birds with one stone).
What yanks may remember the name Goldsmiths from..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahar_Mustafa_race_row
Weren’t quite a few of them “dissidents”?
Not like the current regime is doing much to reverse this
Communism is shit at anything beyond provide a basic modicum living standard, agreed. and they were shoveling like 40% of GDP into their military-industrial complex. But social capital was pretty high, much less corruption, drug use, etc.
I’ll have to look that up, thanks.
Russia’s police force ranks between Guyana and Burkina Faso in the WISP index (2016):
http://www.ipsa-police.org/Images/uploaded/Pdf%20file/WISPI%20Report.pdf
Russia ranks between Pakistan and DR of Congo in the IEP’s 2019 index
http://visionofhumanity.org/app/uploads/2019/07/GPI-2019web.pdf
Basically it’s a country that is still a basket case in many ways after 20 years under the siloviki mobsters (well we could say 30, since only certain oligarchs from the 1990s nadir died out or were removed).
Switching subjects, do you have any explanation for why Ukrainians were underrepresented in revolutionary parties compared to other minorities? Is it just that most preferred to join the Petliurites or the Green/Black armies?
Why refer to obviously false indexes?
Riiiiiight.
Now do Global Freedom Index, Democracy Index, Free Media Index and other Western bullshit where Russia and other Western enemies always turn out the worst.
This Institute for Economics and Peace (?! – the name itself) is staffed by Russia experts of the usual kind – never lived there, never been there, don’t speak the language.
So because Russia does poorly, throw it out. Russia ranks a respectable 49 in HDI fwiw
That is, according to GLOBAL PEACE INDEX 2019, Russia on “peacefulnes” at the level of Somalia and Yemen, and much worse than Saudi Arabia.
https://www.blogrebellen.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/global-peace-index-2018.jpg
Tell me, what level of IQ have people for whom created such propaganda? Probably less than 70?
Above is a typo. Here’s 2019
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9-l4eHXUAA54i-.jpg
? I see Russia ranked above those two. Saudi Arabia has a near total police state, so not that surprising I suppose
There’s an even better gem.
Freedomhouse list.
Russian score – 20
Afghanistan – 26
Pakistan – 39
Ukraine – 60!!!
Egypt – 22
Qatar – 25
Turkey – 31
Iraq – 32
Kosovo !!! – 52
https://wellness.consumerfreedom.com/
The meat industry is fighting back
This ad ran in the NY Post:
https://wellness.consumerfreedom.com/app/uploads/2019/08/FAKE_Ads_BlogPost-1024×989.jpg
Yes.
During the Revolution, Ukrainians from the former Russian Empire overwhelmingly fought for various nationalist or anarchist bands. None were with the Whites,* and at times they allied with Bolsheviks (viewing than as a lesser evil than the Whites), although very few were actually part of the Bolshevik movement.
Part of this was because Bolsheviks were based on urban proles, and Ukrainians were a rural people. So most Bolsheviks from Ukraine were ethnic Russians and Jews.
*Many ethnic Ukrainians from Kuban were with the Whites, but this was outside Ukrainian territory. Also, although virtually no ethnic Ukrainians from Russian-ruled Ukraine were with the Whites, some ethnic Ukrainians from Galicia were. One of my grandmother’s cousins organized a group of them who fought for Kolchak against the Reds.
During Soviet times the USSR did indeed improve, but its rate of improvement was such that it fell behind non-Soviet Western countries.
After Soviet times Russia has actually been catching up, rather than falling further behind.
They built beautiful metros. Predictably, the beautiful stations were from earlier in the Soviet-era by people trained from the time of the Tsars or soon after those times (so, students of pre-Revolutionary engineers). Deeper into Sovok and it went downhill. Now there are many beautiful new stations being built.
However, anyone visiting the USSR in 1990 was struck by the shabbiness of the buildings and roads.
The excuse is that the climate is harsher. However these problems were evident in Ukraine also.
No, because of this:
These things are nearly always shameless propaganda. That’s just the nature of geopolitics.
Two notable Ukrainian Bolsheviks I can think of:
He led the storming of the winter palace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Antonov-Ovseyenko
He was a great tank commander in Hearts of Iron II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon_Timoshenko
Idk, why would they want America’s nation building projects to rank near dead last in most? And the US itself is starting to show slippage
Sorry, Timoshenko was an “old guard” officer, this is the similarly named, chrome domed (did something about communism cause baldness?) general I was thinking of who actually was an apostle of armored warfare. It doesn’t mention his ethnicity though
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Rybalko
Ovseyenko left Ukraine in his late teens and never came back.
I was discussing within Ukraine itself.
Take cheer my carnivore friend, the beef industry is fighting back, February 2019:
https://youtu.be/pLB59Vx5_tM
They’ve been running these types of adds for decades now. 🙂
Ukrainian aircraft producer won a contract to supply Peru with Ukrainian planes:
https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/ukraine-wins-contract-to-produce-an-178-aircraft-for-peru-photos.html
Forex reserves up to almost $22 billion:
https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/605817.html
Actually, the Galician Ukrainian army en masse fought under the command of the Whites after Petliura’s selling out of Galicia to Pilsudski.
Related:
https://www.eurasiareview.com/08042016-fuzzy-history-how-poland-saved-the-world-from-russia-analysis/
https://www.eurasiareview.com/22052011-pavlo-skoropadsky-and-the-course-of-russian-ukrainian-relations-analysis/
Upon his overtyhrow, a good number of pro-Skoriopadsky Ukriians went over to the White side. bnesides that, the Whites werren;’t without support in former Russian Empire Ukriane.
Petliura agreed to become Pilsudski’s stooge on account of this reality.
That’s not true.
If you talk about metro, then last one built in all the USSR, is Ekaterinburg metro. Unfortunately, because of the 1990s, it is only one line of about 10 kilometers.
But it is quite beautiful and excellently constructed.
1 in 20 people had a private automobile in 1990. (50 automobiles per 1000 citizens).
The optimistically authorities planned for a future rate of one private automobile for every 6-7 citizens.
So its prioritization should have been lower, than in America, where automobiles per 1000 citizens were 14 times higher.
As far as I can see, Ukraine is still in 2019 mostly living from the inherited infrastructure fat of the USSR.
Economic growth by middle 1980s was falling to the 1-2% range.
https://i.imgur.com/utAvFkL.jpg
But oil prices in 1986 averaged $13 per barrel, and the subsequent result of the oil crash – we know the disaster.
If oil price falls to $13 per barrel today, then the economic situation will a disaster as well, however.
The worst Moscow metro stations were the ones built in the later Soviet period. The most beautiful ones were the oldest ones and the new ones.
With fewer users the roads should be in better condition. But their condition was terrible despite fewer drivers.
I was in Ukraine in 1990. Soviet times. The roads were horrible then, by Western standards. Buildings were shabby and a joke. The nicest things were pre-Soviet ones or early-Soviet ones.
Gotcha. I switched to wiki’s desktop version, and Pavel Semyonovich Rybalko is in the category “Ukrainian People of WWII,” he definitely had a face for command and a chest for medals
https://ww2db.com/person_bio.php?person_id=628
A few objections to this:
Richard Lynn apparently conducted a study on the Sámi people, finding that they have an average IQ of 101.
http://www.unz.com/jthompson/lapps-finns-cold-winters-and/
And in terms of pure aesthetics, some were planned to have been more beautiful than they were completed, but because of the collapse, there was a lack of funds to complete interior decorations.
For example, Prospekt Kosmonavtov and Uralmash are very cool decorated stations as they were completed before the collapse of the Soviet Union.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msl_Q2r3jbA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijmJznhNBho
But Uralskaya station was opened in the year after the collapse, and there were not funds available to complete the planned interior decoration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcK28zuPXAA
Seriously? I was under the impression that it has the highest dropout rate of any course in the west.
I thought something like Geography was considered “dumbass” ,
From my time at University – the mathematics being taught to civil engineers was at a much harder level than that taught to mechanical and electrical engineers, a much higher level of critical thinking is required for civil engineering…and the civil engineering department gets far more money! Timoshenko, Bernouilli and Euler ( you must have heard of him) are three of the greatest mathematicians of all time and the fathers of Civil Engineering..a subject like electronic engineering has no use for two of them!
Soil /Foundation Engineering perhaps has a higher degree of empirical study done that is incorporated into it’s modern day practise , which might make it weaker than the purer mathematics in pipes/structural engineering….but still it is nothing particularly weak
The soviets were genius at exploiting the use of prestressed concrete – so this is technology from that was mass used 50-60 years ago ( remember many of these structures are designed for 50-75 years, or if a bridge – 125 years) and hasn’t much needed to be expanded on since ( or wasn’t able to be expanded). As you know, mass car ownership was never an issue for the USSR.
Much of the plant and machinery in construction operations on site in Russia have made a fortune for excellent foreign companies like JCB and Caterpillar over the last 30 years, any serious tunneling job uses a German or South Korean TBM – all this at the expense of any money being put into subsidies for Russian companies or research at Universities to develop their own ( until recently)- this is all perfectly reasonable given the understandable look to the west, western companies offering their services products, and domestic collapse that took part in the 90’s.
All these factors explain why the ranking system is just some Anglo-world centric BS of zero relevance …which , if anything, is mostly founded on research( not necessarily the quality of that research, particularly if not in English) which entirely relies on state handouts or companies paying….and absolutely zero to do with the quality of the graduates at the time of completion of their study………it’s basically this fantasist f**up troll AP making up some lies for the purpose of attention-whoring – as befits a nutjob
That’s not how it works though.
Nationwide roads in America had a famously bad condition, before America expended $500 billion in the Interstate Highway System, beginning with Eisenhower.
Considering in 1990, in the USSR, there were 50 automobiles per 1000 citizens – a similar investment would have been difficult and wasteful for that historical epoch.
Something which was designed and built by Soviet engineers.
Because in different times, and in different cities, more or less money is allocated on decorations.
While it is interesting you were visiting Ukraine in 1990, and I would happily read about your impressions of such a historical year.
You visited during its economic collapse, and it seemed shabby, and you infer therefore that Soviet (civil only?) engineers are bad?
How many countries today, with GDP per capita of a bit over $3000, have infrastructure like Kiev metro?
There are countries with GDP per capita of $40,000 today – which would be envious of such metro systems.
Interesting. Thanks for that!
Is it clear who he supports, both in the Premier League and in the Ukrop or Russian PL?
A comment on a video on Youtube at the time of the world cup of him saying how much he loves Golovin, Dzagoev or Dzyuba would be extremely funny.
BTW on the issue of the population of Ukraine – football attendances in the Ukrainian matches over the last few years are one of the most striking things when thinking about the depopulation Ukraine in the last 5 years……..Karpaty Lvov have basically genocided their fans in the last 5 years LOL. Even taking into account the relocation of Shakhtar Donetsk and Zorya Lugansk teams – the low attendance at matches is shocking and even more direct proof of the depopulation
It is the lack of cladding panels ( coupled with lack of funds and gross inefficiency) that is the problem- the building/infrastructure themselves are excellent….and many similar projects were done in the west….albeit with better cladding. Remember the UK, Germany, Italy and France were full of socialist/communist sympathising urban areas that were full of projects that reflected this in urban planning
The Sydney Opera House is basically a Soviet type building ….but with cladding on , and it is these panels which give it the gloss to make it one of the most positively recognisable buildings in the world
This explains it – plus any malaise. If these brand new steel-frame/glass clad public buildings around the are not maintained well for a few years…..then they will look like monstrosities in a few years time also
Note that what I said was:
Civil engineering is still engineering, so when I say they’re the weakest of the engineers that does not mean that American civil engineers are stupid or can be compared with majors in geography (assuming this is a major). Engineering in North America is renowned as a very difficult, challenging field. It is like stating that Donald Trump is the poorest billionaire.
And this is my impression from talking with engineers, of whom I know many professionally. Mostly electrical, but also some mechanical and a few aerospace. A good friend of mine from high school also became a civil engineer and commented that it was easy (he is highly intelligent), and after finding out that salaries in the field were modest he changed his career to finance and is today a VP with one of the larger banks.
Not being an engineer myself I can’t comment on whether or not it is inherently more or less challenging than other forms of engineering, but it’s not an attractive career here relative to some other types of engineering because most civil engineering jobs are with state departments of transportation. These are perfectly reasonable jobs, but in the private sector engineers obviously have better chances of earning much more. Employers like Boeing, nVidia, Caterpillar, etc. are more attractive than the Texas DOT to young students.
I obviously can’t comment on Russian university rankings, but in America one should skip the official rankings and simply look at the average test scores (SAT and ACT for undergraduate, GMAT and GRE for graduate) of students to see which schools and programs are serious.
https://www.city-journal.org/europe-multiculturalism
Mass immigration leads to replacement. If immigration were limited in number and time span, it might be acceptable, esp if the newcomers are not African. But certainly NOT when it goes on and on.
If only a limited number of Jews had settled in Palestine, Palestine would still be Palestine. But Jews kept on coming in waves after waves, and they eventually replaced the Palestinians who lost their homeland and are now forced to live under Occupation and apartheid.
Same will happen to the Europeans. Kosovo was once Serbian, but it is now mostly Albanian. Under Ottoman rule, all those Muslims Albanians were allowed to move into Serbian territory, and this had a devastating effect on the Serbian population.
Also, it’s primarily not about economics. EVEN IF all new immigrants were good people and worked very hard, TOO MANY of them will alter the character of the nation. I’m sure 30 million Chinese in Kenya will do wonders for the economy, but Kenya will no longer be Kenya. Infusion of Han Chinese have led to economic boom in Tibet, but traditional Tibet is fading away in demographic and cultural terms.
True national consciousness means attachment and connection to time and land. It’s the understanding that one’s own people have lived and been buried in the soil of the motherland for eons stretching back centuries, millenniums, and even eons when we consider that Europeans lived in Europe even before the rise of civilization and nations.
Our nanny was a civil engineer in Russia. Nice lady, and certainly not stupid (otherwise we would not hire her to watch our children), but not as intelligent as typical American engineers. I’m sure that there were brilliant engineers in Soviet Russia, just as there are brilliant teachers in the USA, but in the non-capitalist world engineering seems to have been the catch-all for the people who were not terribly bright, the sort that would be in education departments or study business administration (or geography) in the USA. Office plankton types.
I know a couple of people who studied physics in the USSR (one of whom became financial director of a large company in the 90s), a chemist (now a big-shot at a pharmaceutical company) and they are brilliant. Engineering doesn’t have that reputation.
A friend of mine who is an executive of an engineering company recently hired a Russian engineer. He finds him to be mediocre, but acceptable, and preferable to an Indian or Chinese. There’s a problem in the USA in that other fields such as finance and medicine pay much much more than does engineering. So one must sometimes hire mediocre foreigners.
First plans were made before the Revolution and its creators were trained by pre-Soviet people. Deeper into the Soviet period, the quality declined.
Here’s a metro station from the 1930’s:
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/mayakovsky-station-moscow-russia-june-interior-metro-mayakovskaya-holds-title-one-most-beautiful-stations-world-137138222.jpg
Its creator, Kravets, was born in 1891, pre-Soviet.
A station from 1965:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Moscow_RechnoyVokzaltMetroStation_1091.jpg/1280px-Moscow_RechnoyVokzaltMetroStation_1091.jpg
(photo doesn’t capture the ugly tiles on the side, that look like they belong in a public restroom)
I was finishing high school. I noticed girls were often unshaved and badly dressed, but feminine and flirtatious. Everything was very shabby. Roads were much wore than even in Detroit. Many Polish (!) traders peddling things (they called them “speculators”) – Poland was poorer than Ukraine, I suspect. “Middle-class” cousins were living like American blacks do in housing projects – that’s how bad Sovok housing was.
Took a lot of pictures of ugly and bad Sovok public buildings to laugh at them.
Was impressed by pre-Soviet stuff like Pecherska Lavra, and family hospitality.
In 1990 the economic collapse wasn’t so long and and wouldn’t explain the dreadful state everything was in. If roads and buildings were well-built they would’t all be crumbling after 3-5 years of a bad economy.
Compare Penn Station before its do over in the 1960s. Much of the architecture the world over saw an aesthetic decline.
Very true of sports facilities built in the 1960s (some exceptions) and 1970s versus what existed beforehand (especially true of MLB parks).
Since the 1980s, architecture at large has put more of an emphasis on seeking modernity without losing the aesthetic appeal.
completely offtopic but for our rus/ua readers
what do you guys think about this
https://www.obozrevatel.com/economics/inostrantsyi-za-den-skupili-milliardyi-gosdolga-ukrainyi-chem-eto-opasno.htm
https://www.obozrevatel.com/economics/economy/takogo-net-nigde-inostrantsyi-massovo-skupili-gosdolg-ukrainyi-a-strana-poteryala-milliardyi.htm?utm_source=yxnews&utm_medium=desktop
As far as I know there is no reliable unified system of tests that would allow comparing the Mongols with the Yakuts, Evenks, etc. In the tests of PISA Mongolia (as well as Russian Mongols – Kalmyks and Buryats) did not participate. In the comments to one of the posts of Karlin was given a link to a special study of the intelligence of the natives of Eastern Siberia – if I remember correctly their IQ in the conditions of life in the city was about 100
This is clearly a ridiculous statement. Here’s an example of Avtovo in St. Petersburg (1955)
https://www.rumblerum.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Avtovo-Metro-Station-11.jpg
And this metro station opened in St. Petersburg over the past decade. Its creators, was born in Soviet….
http://www.kompakt-spb.ru/images/549/549aba7586437.jpg
https://versiya.info/uploads/posts/2017-12/1514649648_metro.jpg
https://cdn.fishki.net/upload/post/2018/07/06/2643936/4b8127eaec28a43d55c3f1a306b26e22.jpg
http://www.visit-petersburg.ru/media/uploads/news/2559/2559_cover.jpg
And this modern station Novoperedelkino in Moscow
https://stroi.mos.ru/uploads/cache/gallery_media_full/gallery_media/0001/82/b4eefd27fde349a9c7a1863c1a7318b733d0cb45.jpeg
Yes here in the company – newest metro of Kazan
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/41/d1/cb/41d1cb438f1e232f5d714327cb963aaa.jpg
http://am3.dlstatic.ru/publication/gallery/1060/1060338.gallery.jpeg
https://www.tourprom.ru/site_media/images/upload/2015/10/26/poiphoto/1f66d2ffc1e1_1.jpg
https://kazan.ros-spravka.ru/upload/iblock/d34/Prospect_Pobedy_Kazan.jpg
Touché.
Yet again, touché.
Is there any explanation for that? I (before I began to travel to Western Europe) naively thought that the ugly Soviet cities – from lack of funds and planned economy. But here is a photo of the “modern” quarters of Stockholm (!).
https://c.radikal.ru/c06/1908/74/dca8fd611459.jpg
In appearance – a typical ugly Soviet city. Given Sweden’s GDP, poverty cannot be the reason for this.
A learning curve.
With some sports facilities, there was an effort to be practical. In the US, the 1960s and 70s saw grotesque stadiums designed to offer the best for baseball and football. They were initially hailed as state of the art improvements.
One such eyesore still exists, albeit on borrowed time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RingCentral_Coliseum
It has been rated the worst NFL stadium. Ditto for MLB.
The result was something that proved ideally imperfect for both. Upon seeing this, the attempt was made for a more old school feel.
It’s cheaper, it’s easier to build and less energy consuming
I wonder if living in an aesthetically unpleasing city has a psychological effect on people, perhaps a medical justification can be found for buildings not looking like blocky turds
Look at how the apartments look inside (except for the homes of completely degraded alcoholics and drug addicts). On the walls are pasted Wallpaper (although bare concrete walls are cheaper), on the ceiling chandelier (although the bulb hanging on the wire is cheaper), etc. etc. That is, the aesthetic side is also important for people. However, why it is considered (since the mid-20th century) perfectly normal and right to build houses like it’s warehouses or barns for livestock. Here is a new building in St. Petersburg –
http://albinamotor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/DSC7277-copy.jpg
here made a minimal attempt to decorate the house. How much did it make the house more expensive – by 1%? Maybe 1.5%? But in 99.9% of cases, even such modest attempts to make the house better aestheticaly is not done.
I’m glad you agree with me that post-Soviet is good. But High Soviet is bad.
Mikhail already pointed this out, but there was a worldwide decline in the beauty of architecture (and much else) after the war.
https://www.bostonmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/06/city-hall.jpg
Boston City Hall
Those buildings, individually, are much better quality than Sovok ones, even if the overall aesthetic is unattractive.
From googleimage, a Swedish apartment block from the 1970s:
https://www.thelocal.se/userdata/images/1502897085_MILLION-HOUISNG.jpg
Sovok ones:
https://kivafellows.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dsc_2110.jpg
https://previews.123rf.com/images/fototaras/fototaras1405/fototaras140500279/28532449-soviet-apartment-blocks.jpg
Night and day difference.
Also, uglier highrises in Sweden are for poor people usually. In Russia it is for normal people.
Ugly but not shabby.
Government building in Ukraine:
https://www.kathmanduandbeyond.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/City-of-Zaporizhzhya-Government-Building-Zaporizhia-Ukraine-1.jpg
The Soviet GUM buildings were not bad looking imo
They weren’t built for poor people, of which very few exist in Sweden even today.
Most of them originate from the ’60s era housing program to construct one million dwellings to insure every urban Swedish family had a modern home.
The difference in quality is not so much in construction but rather in maintenance and landscaping.
The shabbiness is not the result of defective construction, but rather of lackadaisical maintenance and upkeep. No doubt the Sovok mentality contributed to the latter, though Western travelers in the Russian Empire commented on the shabbiness of Russian farmsteads.
A friend of mine who studied Russian in the Russian Far East commented that the whole country could use a power washing and a fresh coat of paint.
I used to work within this office building. Alhough it looks somewaht impressive from far away, up close it exhibited shabby workmanship and certainly wasn’t worth the exhorbitant office space costs!
https://s.yimg.com/bj/filo/40737537/sr_0321ec56b02612.jpg
A man made lake in the middle of the desert, no less. 🙂
Plans, designs and construction, which was made, are all by Soviet engineers, by any description.
Earlier plans by German companies like Siemens, have no relation to what was constructed.
Here you have entered some kind of strange circularity of logic.
Soviet people were trained by pre-Soviet people. And post-Soviet people were trained by Soviet people.
So the good and bad things of Soviet times, are a responsibility of pre-Soviet people? And likewise the post-Soviet times, are the responsibility of Soviet people?
You are talking now about architecture, not engineering. In the first image, a luxurious Art Deco station, and in the second a plain one.
Different times and cities, had more or less luxurious architecture, depending a lot on the budget allocated. Also in different times, some architecture styles is more attractive than other fashions.
Certainly 1930s art deco architecture is cooler, than the 1960s one, even controlling for budget. But this is not unique in the USSR.
1930s architecture in New York: Chrysler Building, Empire State, Bank of Manhattan Trust Building, etc.
https://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2016/01/nypl.digitalcollections.510d47d9-4fb3-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99.001.w.jpg
1960s architecture in New York: e.g. One New York Plaza
https://files1.structurae.de/files/350high/1/20081010/dsc01002_shift.jpg
You impression is interesting, as you were actually there in the time, with your own eyes.
Your visit was in the middle of very painful economic collapse. And GDP per capita was about 7 times lower in Ukraine, than in the USA, in 1990, after it has fallen by 25% from the peak which was in 1983.
It would be interesting how the perception was of other countries in that time though – for example, when I look at videos of Princess Diana’s wealthy London of that epoch, it looks far more shabby than today.
By your use of a measure of metro stations’s beauty to determine this question, we would infer British engineers are far inferior to Soviet ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgMp-wc40s8
There’s technological change – of construction materials and how way that buildings are construction.
And also old methods of craftsmanship become only affordable for luxury buildings, as a result of vastly higher labour costs, in comparison with 19th century Europe, or even 1930s America.
Ironically, the other way around. In the USSR, it seems possible to continue building beautiful, old style, of buildings, for about 15 years longer than in the Western Europe and America.
I don’t think it was just a result of Stalin’s taste and prioritization of expenditure, but also more availability of labour than in Western Europe.
Beautiful buildings of cities like Volgograd are all built after the war, including with huge labour supply and volunteers immediately after liberation.
If you compare with London – they could not dream of such elegant residential buildings in the immediate post-war years. In Germany, they could, but in many many years, with very large budget – Dresden New Market is reaching completion of reconstruction in 2020, after enormous expenditures and 75 years of works.
https://i.imgur.com/UK0PsmY.jpg
Aside from the circularity of your claims (post-Soviet, are Soviet, while Soviet are pre-Soviet?), It’s not reflecting reality.
Again, last metro stations opened in the USSR, are very stylish ones.
Here is Prospekt Kosmonavtov … where the design is influenced by space travel and modernism, but also with local Ural influences in stonework.
https://i.ekmap.ru/1/8/1/8/thumbs/600_400_fixw.jpg
http://www.metrowalks.com/f/ekat/prkosm/150701-1101873.jpg
Here the elegant/industrial influenced Uralmash station.
https://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/00/48/89/04_big.jpg
And neo-Gothic “Uralskaya” – due to the collapse of the USSR, budget was lost for full decorations (which were planned to include beautiful mosaics of the city).
http://metroworld.ruz.net/yekaterinburg/images/04_uralskaya_05.jpg
https://i.ekmap.ru/original/1577.jpg
I visited Paris and Brussels that year and had no impression of shabbiness. They were actually very nice at that time.
The metros seem to have been the showcase of Soviet public projects, and they were good (though still, Toronto or Montreal metros from the 70’s or 80’s are better than are Moscow ones from that time). But overall it was just an experience of shabbiness and squalor. Horrible roads, ugly deteriorating buildings, like if cities were built on the level of the worst American public housing projects such Cabrini green. It was exotic and darkly funny to see regular people having to live in such an environment.
Second newest metro station in Ekaterinburg (“Botanicheskaya”) is the most modernist one.
Chief architect Spartak Ziganshin (“Soviet trained” at Sverdlovsk Architecture Institute, graduating in 1975), was architect also on metro since the 1980s, where he was colleague of rock singer Vyacheslav Butusov who together designed many features of the stations above.
http://www.rosmetrostroy.ru/photos/ekb/botanic/botanic14-b.jpg
http://www.metrowalks.com/f/ekat/botan/150702-1102380.jpg
Apartment block neighborhoods are pretty much planned economy projects by city governments with private companies just as contractors for specific tasks (but corruption rules and projects go to whoever has connections). Rapid urbanization, baby boomer generation, peasants turning urban workers, same motivation as in the USSR and from 1950s apartment blocks in Sweden look like Khrushchev buildings, just much better maintained.
But another thing is ideology and the West went through its own cultural revolution and a lot of institutions since the 1960s have been controlled by leftists who want to destroy everything traditional. Buildings outlive humans so to the left they are an unwanted link to past generations and recently Western architecture has considered its duty to replace the past and the quality of the new design hasn’t mattered as much as destroying the old. Our leftist cultural elites especially hate connections to Christianity and Greco-Roman heritage (the Roman empire was fascist and anti-Semitic or something).
Example from Helsinki. In this old photo – the Orthodox cathedral on the top left, entrance to the “palace” on the lower left (formerly used by Romanov family on their visits, later made the President’s residence) and a random 19th century neo-renaissance building on the left. This building was fine and didn’t need replacement:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Norrmen.jpg
That neo-renaissance building had no special importance but it was designed to fit the surroundings very well, with red brick matching the Orthodox church and the neo-renaissance style fitting the neo-classical center of Helsinki. It would have been too controversial to blow up the Orthodox church or the “palace” but they demolished the less known building in the 1960s so that famous architect Alvar Aalto could replace it with this stupid box:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Stora_Enso_headquarters.jpg
Normal people hate this building but our academic and media elites praise it. The city of Helsinki has declared this horrid building to be a protected cultural landmark. To the new architect elite what’s great about it is that it has no style or ornaments that would link it to a particular tradition or a previous time period and it is a striking mismatch in color and style to the church and the “palace” so it poisons views and photos of those buildings that the cultural elite hates.
Another example of demolished neo-renaissance center of Helsinki:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Skohan_talo.jpg
Nothing special about this either, just typical 19th century construction, but the pleasant looking city block was was demolished to build this…
https://jugendiajafunkkishelmia.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/makkaratalo-1975.jpg
http://www.google.com/search?q=makkaratalo&tbm=isch
…as the first part of a plan to demolish all of the 19th century neo-renaissance center of Helsinki and to replace it with these concrete boxes. Of course this box building from the 1960s has been declared a “protected national antiquity” by the government museum board because it “shows belief in progress” hence it can never be demolished unless we somehow manage to get back control of the bureaucracy from leftists.
Eventually public outcry got loud enough that they stopped demolishing the city center and then ugly boxes were built in new neighborhoods further away.
I’ve wondered how St Petersburg managed to survive the commies so well. I assumed that communism with no opposition would mean full demolition of everything from before the revolution since that’s what our leftists would do. In 1990s St Petersburg there was a lot of old stuff in disrepair which shows the commies didn’t care but the whole of St Petersburg center hadn’t been razed and replaced with concrete boxes.
The Muscovite kreakl maggots were in hysterics when Mayor Sobyanin said that Russia was not like Zimbabwe…they were quoting all the “Freedom House” and “Democracy Index” or whatever BS raatings which rate Zimbabwe higher
In the Soviet Union, there were people caring about architectural preservation.
Not in all places or times. But you can certainly see now in some cities, there are more demolitions of historical buildings today, than in the same city in the USSR.
Also until the 1960s, Soviet architecture was often very traditionalist.
Even 1920s constructivism in cities like Ekaterinburg – the buildings are more like equivalent of what is called Art Deco architecture in Miami.
So, in cities like Sverdlovsk in the USSR, there was more de facto architectural preservation than Ekaterinburg today.
In the Soviet Union from the 1960s, these panel buildings were excellent for their purpose, which was to rapidly increase housing supply, in a way which was with previous construction methods – impossible.
They are not designed because of any particular aesthetics, or because people think boxes looked cool. They are made to be the quickest and most efficient, prefabricated construction technology.
These could be built in a few weeks, and repeated with the high standard, thousands of times. These were accompanied usually with excellent infrastructure and planning of the microdistricts.
Engineers had designed the buildings only for a limited lifespan however (I believe it was 30 years, if I recall correctly), which is now exceeded.
If we are talking about milleniums and eons, then it needs to be noted that we all modern Europens are nothing but descendents of black African demographic explosion wave which killed off and replaced all original white Europeans – Neanderthals.
So even if all of Africa will come again into Europe now, then after some forty thousand years they still should become white again 😉
There seems misunderstanding of communism’s effect on art and culture here.
Classical music and literature was more prestigious in Soviet times, than today. Attitude to historical elite culture, was that historical elite culture needed to be accessible to wider circle than elites.
Contemporary art and literature is more dangerous for them, as artists are often quite subversive and rebellious of current authorities, and it was contemporary culture which was effectively damaged, as it was forced to conform to official views and styles.
So Pushkin could be promoted as a god in the Soviet Union. But silver age poets basically destroyed by the Soviet Union. Boris Pasternak for example, famous for symbolist poetry – by 1940s writing realist poetry about workers commuting on trains.
However I have heard that blacks that take up living in northern climates, with much less sunshine than southern climates, are getting much higher incidents of melanoma. Skin cancer seems more related to diet and lifestyle than to actual overexposure to the sun?…
This is clearly a false explanation. If it was all about technology, we would have some such architecture (the project of the theater in Kaliningrad)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6Gv2f_TX29s/T33IZYc2MeI/AAAAAAAAAB4/Hdm-lbqPNA8/s1600/d182d0b5d0b0d182d180-d0b2-d0bad0b0d0bbd0b8d0bdd0b8d0bdd0b3d180d0b0d0b4d0b5_d0bf-d181d0b0d0bdd0b8d0bd-d0b2-d0b2d0bed0bbd0bed0b4d0b8.jpg
But we have this:
St Bride’s Church, “one of the finest examples of British twentieth-century ecclesiastical architecture” (!)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/St_Brides_EK05.jpg
the first (in Russia) panel house of large concrete blocks of factory production. It was designed by architects Burov and Blokhin in 1941.
http://s018.radikal.ru/i521/1603/ae/f47951a1809c.jpg
Here’s a residential building of mid-20th century
http://img4.tourbina.ru/photos.4/0/8/6/3/8/1283680/big.photo/Zhiloy-Dom-6.jpg
This is true for the Stalinist and post-Stalinist era. In 1917-1930 the field of culture was dominated by radical leftists (Kazimir Malevich – a vivid example)
In the US, Robert Moses and the Levittown processes have “sovok” attributes.
Radical modernist architecture of the 1920s “constructivism” style.
https://s.ura.news/images/news/upload/gallery/1052262390/229632_Konstruktivizm_Mayorova_Ekaterinburg_konstruktivizm_sportivniy_kompleks_dinamo_zdanie_ulitsa_eremina12_760x506_5080.3378.0.0.jpg
https://cdnimg.rg.ru/img/content/172/17/84/oblsud_d_850.jpg
http://lk-magellan.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/%D0%A3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9-%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%B9.jpg
https://pr-flat.ru/upload/medialibrary/0d7/0d7fe8278e4be44f98fc0eaff0bd4095.jpg
https://www.jazzhostels.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/florida-miami-art-deco-photo-cc.jpg.jpg
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/73/e6/a9/miami.jpg
https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/2/18-art-deco-south-beach-miami-beach-richard-krebs.jpg
Ideological consideration seems irrelevant, as much as it is for certain fashions in clothes, or the design of automobiles.
This is elegant Stalinist Empire style. In 1940s and 1950s, it was still economically able to build those, although there was a large labour requirement, and such building is not able to fill the housing requirement of the population.
For example, in Volgograd, 25,000 labourers work to rebuild the city, and also thousands of prisoners were used to construct such an elegant city.
–
In comparison, hruschoby were constructed rapidly and economically, without huge labour requirement, and it was able to supply adequate housing for millions of people.
Architects of different styles – for example, “brutalism”, have expensive “showcase projects”.
But the majority of buildings in the world, have something more like “no style”.
If you look even in Tokyo, most buildings in the cheap areas, are boxes with straight line and no decoration.
This is not because Japanese believe in Le Corbusier, or study the work of Rodchenko and Tatlin, It’s not because of “Zen Buddhism”.
It’s because this is economical way to construct nowadays. If you want more attractive shapes, you have to pay extra for it.
https://i.imgur.com/rrm48TJ.jpg
This is Ginza in Toyko though, and they still use boxes.
https://www.oyster.com/uploads/sites/35/2019/05/the-hotel-v10626371-1440-1024×683.jpg
https://t-ec.bstatic.com/images/hotel/max1024x768/368/36840949.jpg
But here is the Wako Clock Tower of 1932. Building which has survived the bombing of Ginza district.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Wako_ginza_at_night.jpg
Here is Tokyo Station – building which was damaged in the bombing and rebuilt.
https://thetruejapan.com/wp-content/uploads/elementor/thumbs/Tokyo-Station-nwazgq998i8kz970rdrvo6y4pluvdv2d8372ntsb5c.jpg
The Japanese have no ideological considerations here, but yet the change in their architecture is the same as in the West, because the technological change was the same.
Okay, these are nice (if a bit garish). I was basing my judgement on Moscow metro stations – the ones built in the 1960s through 1980s often looked a bit like public toilets, if public toilets were metro stations.
This one is by Metropolis mall:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/Moscow_VoykovskayaMetroStation_1152.jpg/1280px-Moscow_VoykovskayaMetroStation_1152.jpg
Friends of mine live near this station:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Konkovo_02.jpg/1280px-Konkovo_02.jpg
Sovok architecture in the desert:
https://media.wired.com/photos/5cdddc9f076c6468f4df332c/4:3/w_1400,c_limit/01_Roberto%20ConteandStefano%20Perego.jpg
By international standards, those ones of Moscow are still quite attractive and stylish though.
Something of the Soviet Union and post-Soviet sphere which is distinct from other countries of the world, was building beautiful metro stations. This is a really a luxury and other countries only start to do it recently.
In Tokyo they all look the same and like
http://www.japanvisitor.com/images/content_images/ginza-line-105.jpg
In London – all of the same style until new ones.
https://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/05/70/99/5709900_02290464.jpg
And New York, can be:
https://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.10438074.1431697746!/httpImage/image.JPG_gen/derivatives/landscape_768/image.JPG
–
Meanwhile, in a much poorer city (compared to London, New York, Tokyo) of Ekaterinburg still building them as individual styles
http://www.metrowalks.com/f/ekat/prkosm/150701-1101873.jpg
http://www.mirmetro.net/uploaded/images/ekb/09_chkal/cecb8263862347cbb51545844644a85e.jpg
Because in Sovok housing and public buildings were crap, and Churches (beautiful public buildings) were wrecked and/or not allowed to bring too much beauty to the public, so metros were all that was left. Millions of people went through them and could spend some time in beauty, on their way from their garbage housing to their garbage workplace.
In normal places people have nicer, more comfortable houses. Subways are just places to get through.
Now that Russian housing has improved, Russians are fortunate to have this one good legacy of Soviet public works, and normal places to live also.
On par with the Nassau County, NY government buildings built in the 1950s thru 70s.
I don’t pay a lot of attention to architecture but a couple of times I’ve passed through Katowice and been struck by an enormous apartment building in the centre. I just looked it up. It seems to be known as Superjednostka. You beauty!
Probably functional, but aesthetically…meh! 🙁
https://pr-flat.ru/upload/medialibrary/0d7/0d7fe8278e4be44f98fc0eaff0bd4095.jpg
I kinda like this one..kind of a “regal modern”…has some elements of class to it. Not clear what it is and where it’s located?
The Miami buildings are nice, very similar to other beach type architecture in San Diego…
The Guthrie theater was an example of a beautiful modern thater built in the 1960’s in Minneapolis. It was destroyed and rebuilt in another part of town and the new one has two theaters to heard in the large crowds. The original theater was intimate and featured a 3/4 view of the stage. Where were the city fathers when this one went down?
Before:
http://www.lakesnwoods.com/images/1960s.72.jpg
After:
https://www.guthrietheater.org/globalassets/5-plan-your-visit/tours/adagewebsite_300x300_tour2.jpg
Hideous and scarry!
But particularly in Ukraine – let’s be honest, all over the post-Soviet sphere -, most people still live from the city planning, buildings and infrastructure from Soviet times.
If we look at cities in Ukraine like Mariupol – it is clear from photos, they had been intelligently planned in the Soviet times, with attractive, wide avenues and trees, and separation of microdistricts from industrial areas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_WE09JS2Hs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCupHeHYn2M
https://cs4.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2016/05/27/5/146433037912997597.jpg
Let’s compare Soviet planning in Ukraine, with Israel in the Middle East (where the budget was perhaps less than the USSR in 1950s -1970s years, but today people have a higher income).
This is Bat Yam, where my friend lives (these are not my photos though).
https://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx108/puerrtto/Israel/DSC_0061%20Medium_zpsqn3uvcom.jpg
Compare housing density of Bat Yam (Israeli city planning).
http://sfilev1.f-static.com/image/users/329884/ftp/my_files/FreeImages/38.jpg
http://blog.tapuz.co.il/kmusa/images/2784370_392.jpg
Children of immigrants should even wish they had Soviet city planners and panel buildings, instead of less competent Middle Eastern ones.
http://s00.yaplakal.com/pics/pics_preview/8/8/9/7701988.jpg
hahahahahahaha! FFS – Dissecting this nonsense with a TIMELINE:
2.You get insanely and hilariously jealous – obviously because a qualification in a good job offends a worthless POS lunatic as yourself – & you know that if I lead your type of embarassing life..then I, and 99.9% of the world population, would demand to get euthanized
4.I almost injure myself from laughter
Well the Aswan Dam in Egypt is arguably the greatest, most successful infrastructure project of the 20th century you dickhead. Obviously there are a million more examples in the USSR of amazing projects….but what use would it be to discuss them – it’s like arguing with a roasted fish
Any international civil engineering conference in the 60’s,70’s.80’s places the Soviet Union Engineers very much at or near the top of valued work/valued opinions you idiot – I know this because alot of the academic research published/presented at these conferences are used in alot of the work today around the world.
Literally some scattergun moronic nonsense you have invented out of thin air ( from jealousy), that deifies logic
This is the Dzerzhinsky culture palace in Ekaterinburg.
It was a famous building of constructivism architecture.
Today there is just a regional museum.
https://i.imgur.com/1BrMZo9.jpg
It’s considered unusual because constructivist interior design aspects have been preserved. Spiral stairs inside with Red Star at the top.
https://i.imgur.com/lzmhx8K.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GSg4Nuf.jpg
–
Constructivism in the USSR, looks almost the same as Art Deco in Miami.
No, just really amused. It was quite funny to see that we are dealing with a Sovok “engineer” here.
Projection. Your long and desperate responses give you away. The truth hurt – you were too dumb to study physics, chemistry, etc. So you completed some third-rate engineering institute.
One way of examining this is to see if people from which faculties are hired from the Soviet Union. Soviet scientists are often hired by Western universities. Engineers, not so much. So at UMass chemistry:
https://www.umass.edu/chemistry/faculty-research
There is a Russian guy.
Chemical engineering?
https://che.umass.edu/faculty
None.
Three Russians in the physics department:
https://www.physics.umass.edu/directory/faculty
Four in Math:
https://www.math.umass.edu/directory/faculty
None in electrical engineering:
https://ece.umass.edu/faculty
None in civil engineering
https://cee.umass.edu/faculty-by-area
None in mechanical engineering either:
https://mie.umass.edu/faculty
I’m not gonna spend more than ten minutes on this, but I’m assuming this is a representative sample.
See, in Russia, smart people studied physics, math, chemistry etc. They were in demand in the West and hired there. Dumb ones, like you, couldn’t study physics or chemistry so you studied engineering.
They weren’t wanted.
You admitted you are not only a Sovok, but a substandard Sovok. 🙂
The “after” reminds me of a bad trip depicted by Pink Floyd on one of their album jackets:
https://ksassets.timeincuk.net/wp/uploads/sites/55/2008/07/08724_95426_pinkfloyalbumsleeve5L240708-320×196.jpg
Quite a light and airy atmosphere used to commemorate such a dark soul?…
Important news from Virginia: https://6abc.com/man-wearing-tv-on-head-caught-on-camera-leaving-old-tvs-on-porches/5462579/
TOP SECRET:
Identity of “Television Santa” revealed:
https://youtu.be/6epzmRZk6UU
I decided to test whether UMass was representative by spending another few minutes by looking at another university, Stanford.
They hired a Russian physicist, biologist, and a few Russian mathematicians:
https://physics.stanford.edu/people/faculty
https://mathematics.stanford.edu/people/faculty-lecturers
But not a single Russian engineer was worthy of their attention:
https://engineering.stanford.edu/people/faculty/grid
Further corroboration that in Sovok-land, engineering was for the people too dumb to get into the physics, mathematics, chemistry etc. institutes or departments. Western universities will eagerly take Russian physicists, chemists, biologists, mathematicians, etc. But they don’t need substandard Sovok engineers like you.
It’s not Art Deco
Art Deco is:
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5805/40682918.3/0_7dae1_9c99c4f9_XL.jpg
https://urbanlook.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/62.jpg
http://rusversia.ru/sites/default/files/dlt_department_store_01.jpg
https://cdn.fishki.net/upload/post/2019/06/29/3019674/f31fbc503ff56e642c977e87c4e4fa4a.jpg
Constructivism (in Moscow or Miami) is the complete opposite of art Deco
Perhaps Gerard2 really is an outstanding civil engineer? He’s on record stating that he’s a dilettante pianist. Sure, his brand of Ukrainaphobia is a bit advanced (even for this blog), but he seems honest enough. He might even be another polymath like Thorfinnsson?
Are you a fan of Kazakhstan’s architecture in Astana?
At least in rich countries, such a building strategy should be strictly prohibited. Architects should design (and companies should build) aesthetically acceptable buildings for all without exception, even if these buildings will be 10-15% more expensive
The tragedy of the commons. More private property and securer rights will improve that.
One of the passengers on the A321 that crash landed in a corn field near Moscow filmed the entire flight on his phone. It’s a pretty interesting video, definitely watch with the sound on. I was surprised how no one seemed to panic until the plane had actually landed. Perhaps they didn’t realize what was happening, though I don’t understand how that’s possible.
https://www.rbc.ru/society/15/08/2019/5d551f649a79478ec78716b8?utm_source=yxnews&utm_medium=desktop
To German Reader:
I did find a book on Germany, William Harvey Maehl’s Germany in Western Civilization (1979) which goes from the German tribes to the contemporary division of West and East Germany.
It is not so easily available, but at least I find the introduction interesting (under the more tag):
I don’t have much to contribute, but I would like to say I really enjoy this eclectic architecture discussion.
He’s not as dumb as most of the Serbs who contribute here, but is the dumbest of the Russian posters. Non-negligible (5%) chance he is a Ukrainian troll, however.
This would match his stated career.
Probably an example of the advantage of having a very intelligent pilot.
Yes, it is the local “Art Deco” style of Miami. (see how similar it is to constructivism built in the same years in Sverdlovsk).
Read here for description and photos in Miami https://www.fodors.com/world/north-america/usa/florida/miami/experiences/news/photos/10-best-art-deco-buildings-in-miami-beach
Or video tour:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiFsu2y4_w8
It’s more beautiful in Miami than “constructivism” in Ekaterinburg, only because they spend a lot of money to renovate these buildings in Miami.
Reason is that this building style (constructivism), actually has no inherent relation to political ideology – anymore than different styles of automobile or jeans.
Republican National Convention has in South Beach, Miami enjoyed the same architecture style, as the NKVD in complex “Gorodok chekistov” in Sverdlovsk.
This architecture style is more attractive and suitable in Miami because of the climate and beach, of course.
This could be designed by “traditionalist Art Deco” people – but the first two buildings are using “eclecticism”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclecticism_in_architecture
I think square shapes is also encouraged by higher land value, not just the lower construction costs.
In areas with the highest land value, square boxes are also maximizing space usage relative to floors you have permission to build.
I think this is why Ginza in Tokyo just becomes a wall of squares.
http://wayfaringminimalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Ginza-Tokyo-Westernized-Luxury-1-1050×700.jpg?e27302
https://previews.agefotostock.com/previewimage/medibigoff/8439535158a61745fab4304f1d92076d/x7f-2421051.jpg
However, to build like in Dresden in the 21st century, at the high quality level there (as opposed to Yoshkar-Ola ), is slow and expensive, and probably requires training of a special workers as well.
It’s not a small cost increase that is why we don’t build like Dresden – but there is ome very significant project to build it, when construction methods, materials, and workforce have changed.
It’s possible in a rich country, where there is a tourism potential, or investment of wealthy residents.
They are still building and fundraising in Dresden now.
https://static.radiodresden.de/content/_processed_/8/9/csm_Dresden_Quartier_Hoym_Neumarkt_6658f8487a.jpg
http://oi62.tinypic.com/290r584.jpg
So, you think that it might be possible for Gerard2 to be pressed out of the same mold as Professor Janisar (a Ukrainain troll)?…The most interesting of the Ukrainaphobe trolls in my opinion has to be Beckow. He portrays himelf as some sort of cosmopolitan East European “Slovak” and never seems to miss an opportunity to portray Ukraine or its people in a bad light. If he really were a young Slovak, no matter how intelligent, I think that the vast majority of his day would be filled with chasing the allmighty euro, not camped out on this website 24/7 pontificating about why Ukraine is a blight to humanity. The more that I read his spiel, the more I’m convinced that he’s a professional troll.
He simply dislikes the Western empire, which typically leads to antipathy against the contemporary Ukrainian project.
I doubt very much he gets paid for his posts.
Why, are you really naieve enough to not believe that there really are paid Russian trolls that are assigned certain websites to monitor and post into? Do you think that there aren’t ones posted to the UNZ blog, especially to the blogs dealing with Russian topical concerns? I mean, I don’t really know about Beckow, maybe he really doesn’t have much of a life and is a committed sovok? And if that’s the case I apologize for making a wrong inference. 🙂
There are paid Russian as well as non-Russian commenters on the internet.
Are they on the Unz Review? Doubtful, especially of the Russian variety. They ought to start by paying Karlin first, who certainly deserves it.
If there are any paid commenters here (note that it would not necessarily always be trolling), I would suspect our own dweeb state and of course our very special friends between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River.
One can’t prove if a commenter is paid or not, and even if someone is paid he’s not necessarily even acting in bad faith.
FFS……….roads in Ukraine NOW are awful you retarded POS……..easily the worst of any non-Island country in the world you idiot!
The University thing is moronic beyond belief as I have debunked this ranking nonsense numerous times
You can’t exactly “prove” per say but you can’t tell from certain patterns of inflexibility in opinions and particularly the manner in which thing’s are rationalised. Obviously this is not definitive proof however let’s just say for my own personal standard of evidence it’s enough to reach a conclusion after long enough, especially when it’s clear people are using advanced methods of manipulation. I notice quite a few of those lurking around.
Tbh i think paying such commenters provides massive ‘bang for the buck’ per se as people The Saker and whatnot hold massive sway over their individual constituents are quite effective at reaching their target demographic. I know for e.g. he had money troubles a while back, so why not just pay him something and let him write? He would easily outproduce a given RT staff.
I doubt anyone here is paid. Beckow seems to be a sincere Sovok, this explains his hatred of Ukraine and Poland, they played an important role in destroying the Soviet project. He wishes Slovakia still bordered a state ruled by Moscow. A western-oriented Ukraine gets in the way of that.
Difficult to know where to start with the idiocy and incorrectness of that paragraph.
So in other words taking your BS logic as if were “true”…the beautiful stations being built now are because of students of Soviet trained Engineers!
As if to encapsulate what an attenion-whoring retard you are , you somehow logic-defyingly manage to confuse two entirely separate issues – aesthetics of a metro station…….with building the metro station and the line! That’s even more dumb than usual . Sure , the aesthetics partialy overlap with the design/construction – particularly when we are talking about arches ….but you are blatantly too thick to realise what youa re trying to compare…….beautiful mosaics are slightly different to boring out and lining a shaft/tunnel 10s of metres below ground level !!
As it is your comments on the aesthetics are moronically informed – as Dmitry points out there were several beautiful metro stations in the USSR.
As I said before…….amid a million great and successful infrastrucure prokjects in the USSR, the Aswan Dam in Egypt is widely seen as the best in the history of the 20th century you cretin
Stalinist-era building alot more “classically” beautiful than the buildings done after him
Soviet-built roads are awful in Ukraine now and they were when the USSR still existed.
And the fact that western universities hire a lot of Russian physicists, mathematicians, chemists but don’t want to bother with engineers proves that smart Soviet people studied in the former fields, while people like you had no choice but to become an engineer. It’s why Russians in the pure sciences are competitive in the west while Russian engineers aren’t. University rankings are just another proof. Your institute was low-ranked and for people who were incapable of getting into a better place.
If it were simple dislike of the modern West he wouldn’t hate Poland. He is nostalgic for the communist system, that he defends. This drives his hatred of the Ukrainian project.
Agree with the doubt about people specifically getting paid to post comments at threads like this one. I know for a fact that some in media periodically, if not frequently, read such matter and will on occasion touch base with some of the participants for scenarios that lead to paid gigs.
As for who deserves payola the most, there’s a phony, crony, baloney factor, in conjunction with the given predominating biases getting favoritism at the more high profile of venues.
BS aside, the best sources are those which are well informed and can entertainingly take it and give it right back. This spirit is at times lacking, thereby explaining the low opinion that mass media at large has among a good number.
Mass media itself is by no means monolithic. RT, Fox and the BBC have varying opinions within their respective entity.
That’s a fair point, though it’s perhaps secondary. And some of his antipathy to Poland could relate to Poland’s strong Russophobia.
The socialist command economies had certain features which were beneficial or at least desirable to a significant fraction of the population. Guaranteed employment, low and fixed housing rents, cheap or free education and healthcare, etc.
Much of this was lost, and not all of the benefits of the market economy accrue to the entire population.
A lot of the basic physical infrastructure and industrial base in Eastern Europe also dates to the socialist period.
It is funny, from Liberal descriptions of Fox News I originally thought that it was some radical source, ot at least equivalent in political viewpoints, if not in intellect, of the UK Spectator.
However, I found it to be simply a “milder” version of the other alphabet networks with more emphasis of religion, “patriotism” and defending Israel and undeserving Republican politicians. They even have pathetic articles about “racism” and “unnatural beauty standards”.
https://www.foxnews.com/tech/google-employee-describes-burden-of-being-black
https://www.foxnews.com/tech/hate-speech-algorithms-biased-against-blacks-researchers-find
https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/fit-mom-maria-kang-apologizes-beauty-standard-breast-implants
I should not have expected very much, but after all the “Faux News” hysteria that I have heard over the years it is a bit of a disappointment.
Maybe their television channel is different?
Looking at the products and yes, structures, created by Soviet engineers it’s not plausible that Soviet engineers were of a low caliber. As for modern Russian engineers, isn’t Boeing’s second largest R&D center in Moscow?
AnonFromTN, who I believe is a Soviet-trained scientist now working in the West, has commented that a lot of funding for researchers dried up following the collapse of the USSR.
Perhaps in Miami it is called Art Deco, but this style corresponds to Soviet constructivism and European functionalism. There’s nothing from European Art Deco in these buildings.
Honestly this “style” is pure garbage. Americans will do some good if they demolish those ugly buildings (I hope also in Russia all the buildings of the constructivism style in the future will be destroyed).
The first two buildings (Follenweider and Kekushev mansion) are considered as reference examples of Art Deco (in Russia it was called “Modern” not to be confused with European modernism). Follenweider mansion – St. Petersburg Art Deco, kekusheva – Moscow Art Deco.
Bit too much of national pathos, I don’t care much for such hero worship…and it will always founder on the fact that during 33-45 there were precious few German heroes.
And I don’t even know if there’s that much point at this stage to deconstructing anti-German narratives (though I certainly do resent them). Things already seem to shift to a generalized anti-European attitude anyway which will only increase with African and other non-European immigration.
Film Review.
Just watched Salyut-7.
It was fucking good.
There were low caliber relative to Soviet physicists and other scientists, as evidenced by the worse reputation engineering institutes have vs. places like Phystec, and by the fact that Western universities have been eager to gobble up Russian pure scientists but aren’t trying to hire Russian engineers.
Of course, these are still European people, it’s not Africa. They still made things. They also really pushed space and military and were barely able to keep up. As Twinkie summarized, “Historically, they competed by making crude (or less complicated), but effective weapons more inexpensively…Russians armaments always had more bang for the buck though usually with much worse human ergonomics.”
A funny take (albeit with some glaring mistakes):
https://www.cracked.com/article_19473_5-unintentionally-hilarious-soviet-versions-good-ideas.html
As for Soviet engineering products – bad roads, some epic disasters (Chernobyl involved a design flaw, not only human error*; Sovoks managed to wipe out the Aral Sea) suggest otherwise.
Wiki’s summary:
The Soviet government made the development and advancement of science a national priority, emphasizing science at all levels of education and showering top scientists with honours. Very large numbers of engineers graduated every year. Soviet scientists won acclaim in several fields, marked by a highly developed pure science and innovation at the theoretical level, though interpretation and application fell short. They were at the cutting edge of science in fields such as mathematics and in several branches of physical science, notably theoretical nuclear physics, chemistry, and astronomy. The physical chemist and physicist Nikolay Semenov was the first Soviet citizen to win a Nobel Prize, in 1956 among several other Soviet Nobel Prize winners and the mathematician Sergei Novikov was the first Soviet citizen to win a Fields Medal in 1970 followed by Grigory Margulis in 1978 and Vladimir Drinfeld in 1990.
Where else would an R & D center be outside the USA? Europe would probably be Airbus territory. But yes there was a legacy of competence in aerospace. Gerard isn’t in aerospace.
*Because the West very stupidly chose to deemphasize nuclear energy, Russia ironically may be the world leader in this now
It fails to make lists of best or most impressive dams, unlike the Hoover Dam.
https://interestingengineering.com/12-of-the-worlds-most-fascinating-dams
Here it is at #17:
https://interestingengineering.com/top-21-dams-in-the-world-that-generate-the-highest-amount-of-electricity
And indeed it has major problems:
https://www.nytimes.com/1975/05/11/archives/egypts-aswan-dam-isnt-doing-the-job-it-might-have.html
Overall Russia is third-rate, compared to USA and China.
“…Russians armaments always had more bang for the buck though usually with much worse human ergonomics.””
More bang for the back is essence of good engineering.
And, as the quote says, Russians have ALWAYS managed to accomplish that.
“There were low caliber relative to Soviet physicists and other scientists, as evidenced by the worse reputation engineering institutes have vs. places like Phystec, and by the fact that Western universities have been eager to gobble up Russian pure scientists but aren’t trying to hire Russian engineers.”
Nonsense.
Well, you can write a letter to America and tell the Americans this.
But this is what in Miami is called “Art Deco” – and it is very similar in Miami, to constructivism in the USSR. (In New York, the style was quite different to Miami).
With examples from Miami, I couldn’t disagree more. This architecture created the historical character of the Miami. It captures the spirit of the 1920s and 1930s of Miami, in quite a stylish way – to demolish it, would destroy the history of the street.
This mansion is constructed in 1904. It is too early for Art Deco, which is from the 1920s-1930s. It can be categorized as Art Nouveau
This is from 1903. So it would be Art Nouveau. Art Deco is 1920s onwards.
You were talking about roads above – but it was already explained private automobile ownership rate was 50 automobiles per 1000 citizens in 1990.
But I answered above – some aspects of city planning were advanced in the Soviet Union, at least relative to their modest objectives, and can be admired today.
So, Mariupol is never going to be a beautiful, intricate city like Seville. However, city planning a lot more organized residential buildings, as seen from the air, than e.g. badly planned examples of the same epoch like Bat Yam.
Every lamp post and stairwell in Saratov, a city not known for tourism, used to be plastered with such stickers. It is a huge business throughout the FSU although the police now do enough to make it less visible.
On the other hand, ethnic Russians in the Donbass strongly supported the Whites. Gorlivka in particular provided a few thousand volunteers for the White Army. Donetsk, more Ukrainian, was a place where the Bolsheviks conscripted over 10,000 soldiers.
Well, the Zhiguli was crude but it was cheap and easy to fix. More bang for the buck. So better engineering than a Porsche, Volvo, Ford, etc?
Those are verifiable facts.
MIT physics faculty:
https://web.mit.edu/physics/people/faculty/index.html
3 Russians
MIT civil engineering faculty:
https://cee.mit.edu/people/faculty/
No Russians
Sovok produced physicists that were good enough to work at MIT, but not civil engineers that were good enough to work at MIT.
Here is the ranking of Russian universities:
https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/eeca-rankings/2018
Civil engineering ones near the bottom.
Or you are using small number of cars as an excuse to build crappy roads (“not many people drive anyways so it’s no big deal to use incompetent people who build crap”).
The fact that it is better than a place that looks like a third world ghetto is not praise.
When starting a new design, a scientist reaches for a sliderule (this is a old one) and an engineer reaches for a catalogue. Academic science skills are easier to transfer than design engineering, which is standards driven. You also need good language and social skills to influence standards committees (I have been on a couple).
My first sustained acquaintance ship with Russia was during my days as a technology transfer consultant. One big project was to review 120 inventions proposed by the Russian Academy of Sciences as candidates for EU technology transfer support. This was 1994. I unearthed many weaknesses in the Soviet infrastructure as regards commercialisation For example, ownership of intellectual property, more important for engineers than scientists, was chaotic. My assessment would be:
Soviet (laser) physics good, a day late and a dollar short but that was the economy,
Non digital electronic devices, great R&D, poor transfer to volume production.
Airframe design, good,
Metallurgy, often world leading,
Chemistry/new materials disappointing,
Biology, appalling.
Electromechanical, trailing edge. Triz is not enough.
Production engineering, hardly recognized.
I didn’t go near civil or structural engineering or nukes. I employed a Russian road engineer for a while. She had good project management training.
The Soviet system of Research Institutes was outstanding at turning academic science into working prototypes built by hand by P.h.Ds. Great for space vehicles. Moving from prototypes to economic production by blue collar workers was an unsolved problem.
Soviet science was connected with the world. Russian engineering still isn’t (still often different standards). I belong to the IET formerly the IEE (met Anatoly at the London building there once). We have 150,000 members worldwide. 9 in Russia.
I wouldn’t say Russian engineers are less able than academic scientists give or take a physicist but they are more tied to their own culture. Their skills are harder to transfer abroad.
My latest project involves magnet wire. Russia is neither a large imported nor exporter but that may be because that previous would be importers were Chinese selling on price rather than my client selling technology. Polyimide insulation was novel when I was an apprentice 40 years ago. Russia still can’t make it.
Some one who is paid to write anti-Russian and anti-Putin propaganda is Anders Around. It is extremely obvious in his style of writing. I don’t think I have read such obvious paid trolls here.
Concerning that network, right of center Fox News viewers have had issues with hosts Shepard Smith and Chris Wallace. Tucker Carlson offers a more eclectic view on Russia when compared to his peers at that network.
This is exactly what I had in mind.
I would only add that every (developed) country prefers to import
a) cheap manual labor
b) the best and brightest scientists and researchers
There are plenty of local engineers that are far more familiar with local codes, standards, local design practices etc.
“Well, the Zhiguli was crude but it was cheap and easy to fix. More bang for the buck. So better engineering than a Porsche, Volvo, Ford, etc?”
In design and engineering there is a thing called “statement of work” or “scope of work”.
This is the most important document for engineers because it tells them what are they supposed to come up with.
If the statement of work says “design a Porche” then you design one. If it doesn’t, then you don’t.
Sovok BS from a self described “anti-Communist”:
https://theduran.com/the-soviet-achievement/
Russia indeed “barely kept up” in armaments. It did this with a smaller gross domestic product, a more primitive technological and educational base, and competing against not just the USA but the entire NATO alliance.
As for the Cracked article…
BTR
The original BTR specification issued by the Soviet Army requested a roof. GAZ didn’t include one for reasons not known to me (other manufacturers did), and the BTR design was changed to include a roof in 1963.
November Class Submarine
It is indeed true that the nuclear safety record of the Soviet Navy was poor compared to the Western powers. Hyman Rickover is still considered a legendary figure in American naval circles.
2B1 Oka Nuclear Cannon
The Soviets sensibly abandoned large caliber field artillery in favor of tactical ballistic missiles.
Kirov-class Cruiser
There was nothing in particular wrong with this ship.
The article rather takes issue with an early homing torpedo, a technology which gave severe trouble to Germany and America as well. The US Navy submarine service’s torpedoes were for instance defective for the first half of the Pacific War.
Yak-38 Forger
VTOL/STOVL aircraft are a bad idea, period.
That said, the successor to the Yak-38 was the Yak-141. The Yak-141’s design data was purchased by Lockheed, and the F-35B’s lifting fan designed is based on the Yak-141.
I do agree with Twinkie about Soviet weapons generally having poor ergonomics. This is in particular a recurring problem in Soviet tank design. It’s probably fair to attribute that to a Sovok mentality too.
Obviously not mentioned in Cracked’s insult article is the long list of superb Soviet weapons designs, which began as early as the late 1930s. The T-34 is in my opinion overrated, but still represents good engineering even in the early USSR.
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/320542793146-0-1/s-l1000.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Typhoon3.jpg
https://obris.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Tupolev-Tu-160-Vitaliy-Kopylov-1.jpg
Philip Owen gave an interesting reason for the absence of Soviet-trained engineers to you. My own explanation would be that demand for engineers was higher in the FSU than demand for scientists, and those engineers who did emigrate tend to work in private industry rather than academia.
Dams of that time period, including the earlier Hoover Dam, more or less all shared the same problem of stopping the flow of silt and its associated nutrients downstream.
The importance of this silt, as well as its negative effects on future power generation, was not understood at the time.
More recent dams like China’s Three Gorges Dam incorporate sluice gates in order to release silt downstream.
https://www.internationalrivers.org/sedimentation-problems-with-dams
http://www.hydrocoop.org/dams-with-significant-siltation-problems/
It does not work like that.
American roads were famously bad, before investment of $500 billion in the Interstate Highway System beginning with Eisenhower.
Eisenhower invested what would be eventually $500 billion into Interstate Highway System, when automobile ownership rate in America was already around 5 times higher than in the Soviet Union of 1990.
Also, increase in automobile ownership rate, has had tragic consequences, when around 20,000 a year have been dying from them this decade.
Bat Yam is almost a fair comparison, because it is built in the same epoch and with similar rapidity, although with less adequate funding than in the USSR.
But Soviet city planning was also often better planning than many American cities in that epoch.
Los Angeles is a problem in the opposite direction, with far too little housing density.
Soviet city planning was often better than chaotic construction in cities today that is available for average people, and included excellent infrastructure – even though today there should in theory be more money and knowledge available.
You were living in Saratov? How was your view of the life of Saratov in general?
Is the city improving in recent years, at least, from an average perspective?
And if your life’s work and training was geared to designing crude stuff with high bang for buck you are probably not qualified to design Porsches.
This a fair point but hard to prove or disprove (university faculties are listed on websites and easy to find; employee rosters aren’t). FWIW, my best friend is an executive at a tech company and hires engineers; he has hired only 1 ex-Soviet, considers him okay, nothing special. I know a Soviet Russian engineer who immigrated to the USA, his career is very low level and simple. These are anecdotes but they reinforce the other evidence.
If an engineer is good, I would guess that he would be as likely to be in academia as in the private sector whether he is from Russia or elsewhere.
This doesn’t contradict what I wrote.
Again, doesn’t contradict what I wrote.
Indeed. Freedom comes with a price. If people were forced to stay indoors their entire lives even more lives would be saved.
The best Soviet engineers worked in the military-industrial and aerospace sectors. These were better maintained in post-Soviet Russia than civilian industry, let alone academia. So presumably many of them continued working in Russia, even in the wild ’90s (Sukhoi managed to transform itself into a quasi-c0mmercial success in this difficult time).
This legacy also exists in The Ukraine, which despite far worse conditions than post-Soviet Russia has also built on the same legacy. You’ve previously noted the development of new Ukrainian missiles. There have also been new developments in tank design and in cargo aircraft in the Ukraine since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Even tiny Belarus has apparently made developments in air defense technology and, outside of the military-industrial sector, in heavy equipment (one of the few civilian areas where the USSR was somewhat competitive).
Earlier you made mention of the USSR graduating large numbers of substandard engineers. This is true according to my knowledge as well. I believe that in order to “compete”, the standard for what was officially an engineer was lower than in Western countries. This allowed the USSR to project an image of racing ahead in science and technology, and it also satisfied party economic ideology of fetishizing the production of material goods. This showed up in other areas such as economic output being calculated as Net Material Product.
That is not a problem distinct to the Soviet Union incidentally. It exists today in China and India as well.
Of course I’m not sure, but I would guess that he’s 30-40 years old. Do you really think that it’s normal for somebody in that age group, a “Slovak”, to be carrying such a large torch for Sovok like he does? Aren’t most Slovaks content with their Western orientation?
I have to admit that I’m a little bit surprised to read AP’s and your condescending opinions about the level and quality of Soviet engineers. I was always under the impression that students throughout the high school level at least had a much better formal education in the sciences than in the US (why would this change at the college level?*). Math, chemistry, physics etc were heavily emphasized and at the head of the school curriculum. I had a cousin that graduated at the top of her class in high school, receiving the highly prestigious “gold medal of Lenin” award (AP would probably recognize the competitiveness involved in winning this award). Surprisingly, after reading AP’s comments, she chose to study in a field related to civil engineering, “city planning”. She obviously was led to believe that she would be in the vanguard, planning and building modern cities within Siberia and Russia’s Far East. Her dreams, however, did not materialize, for after the Soviet Union collapsed, she ended up immigrating to the US and succesfully ended up pursuing a nursing career – she’s gainfully employed to this day at the Mayo Clinic.
*one also get a much different slant on Soviet education in the hard sciences from Andrei Martyanov.
I’m defending Soviet engineers. The real ones, and not ones which in Western countries would have been considered technicians. There was an effort to graduate more engineers, which was done by having lower standards for lower caliber students so they could be declared engineers. I think they did something similar with doctors but know less about this.
Denigrating the quality of American education has been a popular cottage industry for a long time, and not just by foreigners like Martyanov. American education could be better, but by international standards it’s fine once one norms for demographic realities. American whites are no less educated than foreign whites, and often better.
My public high school offered many demanding courses in math and science (multivariable calculus, linear algebra, AP physics and chemistry, etc.), and bright students took these classes and did well in them. Many of these kids then went on to study demanding fields in university.
Of course the public high school I attended had a student body that was over 95% white, with most of the rest being oriental and Indian. Median house values and household income were also quite high.
Where I live now the public high school is “worse”, simply because the local population is of lower quality. But it’s appropriate for the caliber of the students here. If anything a lot of them would be better off entering the work force after completing middle school.
RE Beckow: I think he’s in his 20s, but who knows. Posting this in this comment because it appears the site has added an irritating restriction on the number of comments you can make per hour. Ron Unz, being old, doesn’t truly understand the internet I suppose.
Level in senior school maths is falling today compared to Soviet times, but this is recent.
If you look at the exams in the 1980ies,they had some very difficult questions. However, until very recently, standards were still ok and not so different than before. It’s quite concretely measurable how there is deterioration in the maths level at senior school only in the last 5 years: simply, now more difficult exam questions became a separate optional exam, and the proportion of students choosing it falls each year since (although the level choosing the exam is still quite good by international standards at the moment, so there is still a chance that the situation will not fall more and Russia will still have better maths education than most countries).
City planning was usually more balanced in the Soviet times, relative to specifications provided for their tasks and the budget available.
You still admire now, how residential districts had carefully measured housing density to infrastructure, and used a systematic method for solving these problems.
So the new areas look attractive from the air and the high density allows new apartments to be very good value for money.
http://pravdaurfo.ru/sites/default/files/akadem_0.jpeg
But the reality of traffic jams, parking and infrastructure becomes is not balanced….
https://cs.pikabu.ru/images/big_size_comm/2013-07_4/13742293134941.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGIOWkkxzRc
My Czech in-laws say Slovaks are much more conservative than Czechs. I suppose in some circumstances being conservative could mean not wanting the old communist system to be changed too much.
If he’s in his 20s, there’s even less of a foundation for his nostalgia for the “good old days”, for he wouldn’t have known these golden years, and a “Slovak” to boot? 🙂
As for the recent counting system for comments and Ron Unz being an old man, he probably still communicates via e-mail rather than texting…I’m way old, because I still like to call people up and “chat’ by phone! 🙂
One can always find people with strange beliefs on the internet.
Yes, I can see the points of view of these various academics and school employees. Not enough schools and parks for the residents and their children. Sooner or later some nutjob will appear as a result of these cramped living quarters, and I shudder to think what may happen. The development of urban landscape including parks for people was wisely taken into consideration in the US. I think that you’ll appreciate this short clip:
https://youtu.be/G82zhQwGDWA
I agree with his latest posts. There were some bright people working in aeronautics, space, etc. If Gerard had said he was designing planes I wouldn’t have made fun of him. But there was also a sea of substandard types; when he mentioned civil engineering and got all defensive, his background became clear.
All statistics concerning America, whether in education, gun violence, life expectancy, have to be looked at with ethnic considerations in mind. America looks “worse” because it insourced its exploited colonial population, and this drags the statistics down. Europe didn’t (although it is now foolishly importing the descendants of its colonized peoples for no good reason).
Kids of European descent in America perform better on standardized tests than do most Europeans, with regional variations. White kids in New England outperform all Europeans other than Finns, southern whites might be a little below average by European standards. Similarly, Asian Americans outperform people in almost all Asian countries, and American Latinos outperform people from all Latin American countries (as well as the Balkans).
America has most of the best universities in the world.
When I myself was finishing my studies in the West, I lectured at a med institute in Moscow (the system is different there – they study medicine right after secondary school). The students in general* were much brighter than American undergraduates but not much different from American medical students.
*There were notable cases of corruption – dumb kids of rich Armenians getting a degree beause their family will buy them a clinic. They then hire their bright classmates to work for them. I would hate to be the occasional patient of one of those owners.
I’m somewhat skeptical of the standard claim that America has the world’s best universities.
This is quite obviously not true in the arts, where their principle purpose now seems to be to obfuscate or even destroy knowledge. The raw intellectual ability of the students is high (though not as high as it could be owing to “holistic admissions”), but they come out less educated than when they went in. The academic workload for arts education is also quite low, since American college is about the “experience” (of partying and living in barnyard conditions). It’s of course not much different in Western Europe, so I’m not even sure where the best universities are in this area.
Who knows, maybe it’s in India. Upper-class Indians (in India itself, not the glorified coolies in the West) seem to have a deep knowledge and appreciation of their culture.
For science and engineering, it appears to be true, though I wonder how much better MIT and Caltech really are than Tsinghua or Tokyo. And in any case these are increasingly not American institutions. I’ve heard a joke that science higher education in America is now a place where ex-Soviet academics train Chinese students.
With respect to medical education America’s bizarre system of graduate education (and also legal education) constitutes an unwarranted subsidy to undergraduate colleges which serves to delay adulthood. Doctors in particular generally don’t start earning a decent living until they’re 30. This is also an underappreciated source of high medical costs in America. Physicians here earn much larger salaries than their peers in other industrial countries, and of course their professional association labors to keep supply restricted (which is then used as an excuse for ever more immigration).
You made the point I was trying to make, better than I did.
In America, there is an analogous push to get people university degrees (good money for university administrators, business for institutions that handle student loans, a way to weed out really dumb people, etc.). The reason was different than the Soviet mass production of substandard “engineers” but the product is comparable: mediocre people who really aren’t that educated. These Soviet engineers are the analogues of bachelor’s in business administration, or psychology, or whatever types who occupy American cubicles in the lower levels of business. Generations ago they would have been clerks without more than a year of post-secondary education. Martyanov was rather mediocre himself but his description was perfect – “office plankton.”
Sovok didn’t have office parks, but it had plenty of factories or public work sites full of such “engineers.”
I’m sure that you’re aware of medical clinics being set-up in countries around the world (most notably Mexico, India etc.) designed to perform many sorts of surgeries for Westerners including many Americans who find it less expensive to travel great distances, pay for accomodations, and return back home with a bundle still left in their wallets. I know that this trend was starting to appear in Ukraine too, several years ago. I have a feeling that you’re well aware of this trend and could possibly render an interesting opinion about the viability of this type of thing expanding there. BTW, I’m well aware of a very successful dentist from Lviv who has opened up clinics here in Arizona and in Canada and probably elsewhere, after saturating the maket in Western Ukraine, he also has a prestigious clinic in Kyiv. How’s that for being one step ahead of the curve? 🙂
A BA in business administration is equipped for office work and can handle Microsoft Excel, Intuit Quickbooks, and perhaps Oracle/SAP. Work that really should start right after high school (or even at age 15), but of course in America everyone “must” go to college in order to do white collar work.
Lower-echelon Soviet engineers were presumably suitable as skilled technicians. In the Cold War, an American equivalent would perhaps be someone who had been a radar technician NCO in the Air Force or Navy. These people are still in the workforce and can typically troubleshoot a printed circuit board down to component level, but they can’t lay out a circuit board. Valuable people, but not engineers.
As for Gerard2 I cannot speculate and won’t denigrate him. I have a fondness for internet belligerence (and consider efforts to restrict this to be contrary to the true purpose of the internet) and am in any case not subjected to his attacks since I am not Ukrainian.
Obviously the USSR (and the modern Russian Federation) had available plenty of competent civil engineers for massive projects of the highest level of difficulty. Extremely challenging civil engineering projects, admittedly sometimes of dubious merit, were completed and with less foreign assistance than in the Tsarist period. The Baikal-Amur Mainline was for instance one of the most challenging engineering projects of the 20th century. The development of the Yamal oil and gas fields was one of the biggest energy development projects ever undertaken and involved extreme challenges not just of petroleum engineering but also in construction and metallurgy.
I don’t agree with the characterization of the Aswan High Dam as flawed, except to the extent that all dams of its era were flawed. The Soviets did indeed destroy the Aral Sea, but this should be placed in context. Around the same time period the Cuyahoga River routinely caught fire and one could develop photographs in Tokyo Bay. London was routinely blanketed in smog that literally killed people. The postwar British government deliberately accepted this in order to improve foreign exchange earnings (by exporting the cleaner, more caloric coal). Even today in America the Colorado River no longer flows into the Gulf of California in most years. The Soviets simply did even more damage owing to their deficient political and economic system.
https://www.parodent.com.ua/
https://www.parodent.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/taras_babych.jpg
It’s a small world afterall…
It’s all right here:
https://youtu.be/dqnwUpzuHZA
https://defence-blog.com/army/ukrainian-soldiers-obliterates-unique-russian-artillery-reconnaissance-complex.html
Russian military incompetence. The Zoopark-1 is a tracked vehicle, yet was on a paved road where it was easily spotted.
It’ good to see that it was one of the original Ukrainian military formations, “Azov” comprised mostly of native Russian speaking Easterners, that took credit for this well executed hit against this Russian supported intrusion. I didn’t know that they were still active.
That’s the “Nazi unit” though, isn’t it? Maybe not the best pr for Ukraine.
In my opinion, Soviet tank philosophy was arguably more forward looking and futuristic than Nato design philosophy. Soviet tanks were cramped because Soviet design philosophy emphasized a very low profile to minimize exposure and small dimensions to transport as many tanks as possible. It was a sensible choice for a large force like the Soviet army that needed to win a land war in a short around of time before american reinforcements came in. Soviet tanks until the 1980s and the introduction of the M1A1 and the Leopard 2A4 were superior to Western equivalents. The T-64 was considered the best tank in the world for a while because when it was introduced because it had better protection (spaced and composite armor while the M60 only had steel armor) than western equivalents as well as better firepower (autoloader, 125mm smoothbore gun vs 100 mm gun). Had the USSR not fallen the soviets would also have introduced tanks which would have leapfrogged western ones (look up objekt 490, most of the concepts used by Armata were imagined at that time)
Perhaps, but it should play well to the German public? I mean “real Germans” not these globo-homo ones that are running around today masquerading as Germans. (Relax, I’m only kidding!) 🙂
Actually, I think that most (not all, obviously) look favorably on the Ukrainians proteting their own borders, ousting the unwanted Russians. It’s just instinctual to let people alone in their own house. Those intruding best have a good reason to do so, not BS ones like the Russians try to sell to the world. Where do you generally stand on this war?
I’m neutral. Obviously Russia’s actions were a serious breach of international law, and the “Ukrainian nationhood doesn’t exist, it was invented by the Germans in 1918/by the Soviets etc.” claims by Russian nationalists strike me as bizarre and pretty repellent, as does Russian propaganda with all its WW2 throwbacks about “Banderites”.
On the other hand, I think EU and US interference in Ukraine was highly provocative, things like all that talk about NATO accession for Ukraine would have been alarming to any Russian government. I also can’t see much of an injustice in the annexation of Crimea, since most of the inhabitants there seem to be in favour of it.
Some of the actions by Ukrainian nationalists (e.g. that Odessa massacre…don’t want to get in a discussion about it, I know your and AP’s views) were also downright criminal; and some of the political initiatives by Ukraine’s government (e.g. language policy) were at least misguided imo.
Most people in Western Europe don’t really care much about Ukraine. I doubt Americans do tbh, apart from their delusional quest for global hegemony and the desire to cut Russia down to size.
“…that took credit for this well executed hit against this Russian supported intrusion.”
In all likelihood, the unit was not damaged at all.
https://medium.com/dfrlab/russian-zoopark-1-counter-battery-radar-takes-fire-in-ukraine-ee66c56d5ea7
Here is a quote from above:
“According to Azov, they targeted the Zoopark-1 with 122 and 152mm artillery shells. Due to their range, the artillery pieces that these shells originated from would have been in violation of the second Minsk Agreement. Two artillery shells impacted in the forest about 25 meters from the vehicle, while a third impacted closer to the Zoopark, but on a slope further down. Because of these factors, the bombardment shown in the video likely did not damage the Zoopark-1.”
Zoopark-1 was developed by the former Soviet union at the end of 1980s.
It is very likely that Ukraine is in possession of some legacy Zoopark-1 units, which indicates that this could be just a staged PR event.
RF upgraded it to Zoopark-1M standard in 2016, exclusively used by Russian armed forces, but you are discussing the 80s version, as far as I can see.
My general impression of Soviet tank design was that it prioritized the “trinity” (firepower, tactical mobility, armor), production cost, and strategic mobility at the expense of other factors. With the possible exception of the Centurion tank, I agree that Soviet tank design generally led in the “trinity” throughout the Cold War. M1A1 and Leopard 2 were “better” in part because they were 50% heavier than their Soviet antagonists.
In addition to very poor ergonomics, Soviet tanks were deficient in visibility, sighting systems, and communications. I’ve also heard they were also less reliable, though I don’t know how true that is. During the war when the Germans pressed captured Soviet tanks into service they found it necessary (for their doctrine, that is) to retrofit Soviet tanks with commander’s cupolas and improved radio equipment.
There’s an incident from Barbarossa which illustrates this well. A PzKw III encountered a T-34 and shot it something like 30+ times (I don’t recall the exact figure). This is ordinarily given as an anecdote to demonstrate the excellent armor of the T-34 and the deficient armament of the PzKw III. But it also illustrates some of the very poor tactical qualities of the T-34 as well as deficiencies in crew training.
Deficiencies in Soviet tank design might not be because of the “Sovok” mentality either. The doctrine of the Soviet army, other than its commissars, wasn’t the product of communist ideology. The USSR had no hope of prevailing in a long conflict against NATO and thus orienting its army around the concept of winning the land war within a few weeks was quite logical. As you note the design of its tanks, and much other military equipment, reflected this doctrine.
https://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/2013/04/recurring-problems-of-soviet-tank-design.html
My general impression of Soviet tank design was that it prioritized the “trinity” (firepower, tactical mobility, armor), production cost, and strategic mobility at the expense of other factors. With the possible exception of the Centurion tank, I agree that Soviet tank design generally led in the “trinity” throughout the Cold War. M1A1 and Leopard 2 were “better” in part because they were 50% heavier than their Soviet antagonists.
In addition to very poor ergonomics, Soviet tanks were deficient in visibility, sighting systems, and communications. I’ve also heard they were also less reliable, though I don’t know how true that is. During the war when the Germans pressed captured Soviet tanks into service they found it necessary (for their doctrine, that is) to retrofit Soviet tanks with commander’s cupolas and improved radio equipment.
There’s an incident from Barbarossa which illustrates this well. A PzKw III encountered a T-34 and shot it something like 30+ times (I don’t recall the exact figure). This is ordinarily given as an anecdote to demonstrate the excellent armor of the T-34 and the deficient armament of the PzKw III. But it also illustrates some of the very poor tactical qualities of the T-34 as well as deficiencies in crew training.
Deficiencies in Soviet tank design might not be because of the “Sovok” mentality either. The doctrine of the Soviet army, other than its commissars, wasn’t the product of communist ideology. The USSR had no hope of prevailing in a long conflict against NATO and thus orienting its army around the concept of winning the land war within a few weeks was quite logical. As you note the design of its tanks, and much other military equipment, reflected this doctrine.
https://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/2013/04/recurring-problems-of-soviet-tank-design.html
Late Cold War Western tanks can also be credibly accused of suffering from the same sins as late war German tank design (exaggerated, but not imagined) and for similar reasons–the drive to offset numerical inferiority with technical supremacy.
There was an interesting fad in the 1970s of NATO armies fetishizing the Wehrmacht and feting surviving Wehrmacht veterans at all sorts of very prestigious and important conferences, and this in turn influenced both procurement and doctrine. Designers on the A-10 program were made to read Hans-Ulrich Rudel’s memoirs for instance. At its most ridiculous this resulted in a 1980 “exercise” in which American army generals conducted wargames against 80-something Wehrmacht generals dragged out of the nursing home for one last hurrah.
The city has improved but not as much as I would have expected. In 1994 a new airport was three years away. It was finally approved for commercial operation last week. The trams are terrible even though the largest tram manufacturer in Russia is in Engels. In both cases, a big part of the problem was raising money by selling bonds. The Russian municipal bond market is not well developed and Saratov has a poor rating. Both the airport and the teams will be profitable just by cutting out maintenance costs.
Food is available but many Produkti no longer sell meat because of the impact of 2014. Ruble collapse+sanctions. Snow clearing is not so good. The city bought 30 inferior Russian versions of Bobcats. They do not work out cheaper if they break down. The 7 Bobcats do most of the real work. However, federal money is actually being spent on smartening up the centre. There was a time it would just disappear. I had several friends whose children were mutilated by kidnappers in the early 2000’s. Another lives on an island in the Volga to avoid the same. New wife, 30 years younger is producing babies. The Chief Procurator was shot. The chief witness was killed in jail. It’s not like that now.
I agree completely with these points. The engineering faculty at the Classical University in Saratov is invisible. Physics is the high status. The engineers were trained at the Polytechnic (now technical university) and the higher classes at aeronautical and radio technical schools (sticking to what I know well). The best training seems to have been in specialist military schools (for 14 year olds?).
In the UK, we also had a large base of polytechnic and technical college engineers. However, engineering was also a prestige course at the best universities. I have the feeling that, a school or two in St Pete and Ekaterinburg apart, the same never applied in the SU. That said, someone must be in charge of Russian Railways which is good at what it does. And as I said earlier, aeroframe design was impressive with a solid supply chain of say 400 Hz electrical components of exportable quality, at least to Indonesia. Trouble is the technology was mostly 1970’s or sometimes older. The tram system was using wooden poles pulled by people to operate medium voltage switchgear manually as late as 2000. Shades of Tesla! In the UK that ended in the late 1940’s and was rare then.
It is my impression that Russia was superb at elite education. The best were selected early and pushed hard. For example, Saratov had schools which specialised in foreign languages. The women from School 42 (now gymnasium 3) spoke with absolutely perfect upper class British accents (Cheltenham Ladies College to be exact). Perfect for spying. I have no idea how they managed this in a closed city.
I was not so impressed by the middle levels and especially “skilled” manual workers. In the building trades anyone can call himself a “meistr” German style without any obvious skill. pay is good for the skilled though. A large operator I know earned enough in three years to buy a flat. Working hours were not that well observed and everyone seemed entitled to lots of time off. Things are more rigorous now.
I know this was a few days ago, but this piece of news is absolutely hilarious and amusing, just like everything to do with Monkeydonia:
https://balkaninsight.com/2019/08/14/north-macedonias-zaev-condemned-for-calling-detainee-faggot/
The prime minister of Monkeydonia, Zoran Zaev, basically called some random political detainee a faggot lol. I think that’s the first time in my life i’ve ever heard of a country’s prime minister calling someone a faggot, especially in 2019 when the world is saturated with near peak globohomo.
My wife was often mistaken for British in the USA, though I suspect her English wasn’t good enough for a Brit to be fooled.
US involvement in Ukraine shouldn’t be considered “provocative” or unwarranted “interference” in Ukraine’s affairs at all. As a gaurantor of Ukraine’s inviolability of its borders, as spelled out in the Budapest Memorandum, the real question should center around why it took as long as it did for the US to turn up its support of Ukraine’s military. I suppose that the whole situation caught the US offguard and it took its time to craft a meaningful and correct response. The whole idea that Nuland and her milk and cookies was behind the whole thing was and is ludicrous.
There was a push already by Bush II’s administration in 2008 to bring about Ukraine’s NATO accession (which was opposed by Germany and France at the time). That was insanely provocative, and clearly anti-Russian in intent, and imo it would have aroused strong suspicions in any self-respecting Russian government. I don’t think the events of 2014 would have happened without that background.
I disagree with a lot of the comments made here by Russians about Ukraine. But imo the Ukraine conflict can’t be seen in isolation from the role of the US in Europe. Since I’m hostile to American influence in Europe and more generally to what the US stands for in an ideological sense, that obviously influences my position.
This source identifies the destroyed Zoopark-1 as not being owned by the Ukrainians, and places it where Azov said it was:
https://informnapalm.org/en/russian-recon-system-zoopark-1-found-and-destroyed-by-azov-regiment-in-donbas-video-photo/
Volunteers of InformNapalm conducted the analysis of the video and relevant facts. We analyzed the terrain and established the exact coordinates of the Zoopark-1 engagement. This point is 48.355161, 38.090358 in the outskirts of Horlivka, which confirms the words of the officer in the video.
Moreover, on April 13, 2019, a drone of the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission spotted a Russian artillery reconnaissance and target designation radar station (1L259, part of the Zoopark-1 system) near Horlivka city (39 km north-east of Donetsk). The spotting was reported on April 16.
It was also in Horlivka that this Russian equipment had been spotted before. Also, in August 2016, Main Directorate of Intelligence of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine reported that militants deployed two radar reconnaissance systems Zoopark-1 on the western outskirts of Horlivka.
“Volunteers of InformNapalm conducted the analysis of the video and relevant facts. We analyzed the terrain and established the exact coordinates of the Zoopark-1 engagement. This point is 48.355161, 38.090358 in the outskirts of Horlivka,…”
No doubt, a source like InformNapalm would confirm Russian Zoopark-1 engagement.
There are a lot of inconsistencies in that video. Crew is nowhere to be seen, no attempts to move the unit from the firing zone, no attempts to escape on foot away from the target area, firing ceased even though the unit was obviously not hit directly and so on.
It seemed completely abandoned even before shells started falling.
Therefore, it is “highly likely” this was a staged event.
Austria’s ÖVP wants to change laws so the Identitarians can be banned and has made such a ban a precondition for any future coalition government:
https://diepresse.com/home/innenpolitik/5675537/OeVP-macht-IdentitaerenVerbot-zur-Koalitionsbedingung
I guess that was a major factor in the break-up of the Austrian government earlier this year.
Christian Democrats really are total scum, beyond despicable.
Can you read a map?
US foreign policy in past generation has largely been disastrous, but lately the Europeans are quite culpable as well. The EU association agreement offered to the Ukraine in 2014 was incredibly stupid and bound to lead to a reaction by Moscow.
There’s a distinction of course in that Berlin being involved in the affairs of the Ukraine is a lot more “natural” and appropriate than Washington.
So whose fault is it that in 2004 support for joining NATO by the Ukrainian people was single digit or perhaps a little bit more, and today it’s somewhere in the vicinity of 46%-51%, depending on the poll taken? The events of 2014 have obviously been a PR nightmare for Russia not only within Ukraine, but throughout the whole world.
Sure, how about you, can you read a poll or understand the meaning of a street demonstration that lasted for 4 months on the streets of Ukraine’s capital city during the middle of winter by hundreds of thousands of demonstrators, where 100 of them gave up their lives in order to change that “map”?
I mentioned EU interference as well in my original comment, so I agree with you about the EU association agreement, though in general I still think that US culpability for the current confrontation with Russia is higher, e.g. NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia was something that was promoted by the US and some of the new Eastern European members, it was never something that had real support in Germany, France, Italy etc. And even today there are non-negligible political forces in many European countries who want to see a reduction of the sanctions against Russia, whereas many Americans have become absurdly hysterical with all that “Russia has attacked our democracy” nonsense.
The problem is that the idea was ever brought up in the first place, it was absolutely insane, doing nothing for the security of existing members (apart from providing cannon fodder for America’s imperial misadventures in places like Iraq or Afghanistan), but bound to lead to a severe confrontation with Russia. Similarly with Georgia.
It’s probably true that most people in Western Europe dislike and distrust Russia, but still, most people just don’t care about Ukraine the way many commenters here do. It hasn’t been a major topic in German media for years (the major issues are the consequences of Merkel’s immigration invasion and climate change hysteria, as manifested in that insufferable autist girl from Sweden), and other European countries are fixated on their own issues as well (e.g. Brexit in the UK, migration and youth unemployment in Italy). There is no general sense of regarding Russia as a threat like during the Cold war.
The feelings of the Ukrainian people are quite irrelevant in this context.
The distance from Kiev to Moscow is about the same as the distance from New York to Atlanta, and less than that between New York to Chicago.
The Ukraine borders a nuclear-armed great power which is faced by a hostile military alliance. Expanding the influence of that alliance to encompass the Ukraine is expansionist and inherently destabilizing.
Unless one desires conflict with Russia, which actually a lot of lunatics in Washington do, it’s extremely irresponsible to attempt to bring the Ukraine into the orbit of NATO regardless of what the Ukrainians themselves desire.
Fortunately for the peace of Europe the German electorate itself presents a strong roadblock against this.
Even if thi is true (and I disagree) whose fault is it that those in favor of NATO involvement within Ukraine went rom a negligible single digit figure to a meaningful one today in Ukraine? Russia has only itself to blame for playing the game in such a brutal and thuggish manner, when there really wasn’t (and isn’t) a need to do so. Russia made a huge mistake in my opinion when it backed Yanukovych as their man in Ukraine. He severely bit Putin’s hand when he promoted a EU orientation for over a year to the Ukrainian people, and now he lives freely and luxuriously within Russia. Now how dumb is that?
To be quite brutally honest, as Thorfinnsson has already written, it doesn’t and shouldn’t matter what Ukrainians think about this. From the point of view of the old members of NATO it’s simply insane to accept a permanent confrontation with Russia that could end in nuclear war by admitting Ukraine into the alliance, a country which does nothing to improve the security of existing members. No Russian government ever that isn’t a total Western vassall would just meekly accept this.
Do I condone everything Russia has done in Ukraine? No, certainly not. But imo the only way out of the current situation is via negotiations and accepting that not all of Russia’s actions since 2014 will be reversed (Crimea at least will certainly never be given back). NATO membership for Ukraine should definitely be permanently ruled out.
Obviously Yanukovich was a mistake, but it sidesteps the issue that ever since inheriting the situation in 1991 Russia has never really had a good option in the Ukraine.
Poroshenko is out with a noticeable change in the Rada – much having to do with the failure of the svidos to significantly win over Ukraine.
Overall, a good talk on why the West is if anything more responsible than Russia for the mess in Ukraine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
Some internal dynamics within Ukraine (not directly involving Russia or the West) are at fault as well.
Russia obviously isn’t the same threat it was in 1985, but the current situation in Europe is in fact dangerous and should be treated seriously.
As an example the recent American decision to scrap the INF treaty for instance greatly reduces Western European security (but not our security). Russian intermediate-range ballistic missiles with precision-guided warheads could wipe out a lot of European NATO airpower and C4I capability in the first hours of the war. This ought to be a topic of first-order importance in Europe, but it seems to be completely ignored aside from taking another opportunity to snipe at Cheeto Blormf Orange Hitler.
In this context the unresolved issues between Russia and the Ukraine are destabilizing and dangerous. European politicians should be working hard to resolve this, but instead they’re kicking the can down the road. Which is the same thing they do on everything else as far as I can tell.
AK: Please inform our fearless overlord that the new limit of three comments per hour per thread is intolerable for your open threads. Perhaps the limit should just be applied to Wally on Ron Unz’s own articles, as I suspect that is what motivated it.
Follow-up on what’s the best kind of physical conditioning:
https://www.outsideonline.com/2400887/is-it-more-important-run-faster-or-run-longer?utm_source=pocket-newtab
I prefer the more varied approach.
Several non -Russian, non-Ukrainian sources support this. Defense blog is one, here is another one:
https://defence-point.com/tag/zoopark-1/
Either everyone was fooled or dishonest, or Russian claims are false.
Video of the shooting was ~ 3 seconds long and didn’t show the aftermath when surviving crew would run.
I absolutely agree with this, the current situation is very dangerous. What I meant to say is that most people don’t regard present-day Russia as an implacable foe like the Soviet Union was. The Soviet Union occupied half of Europe (yes, yes, I know the Soviets “liberated” those countries from the evil Nazis…too bad they overstayed their welcome) and was animated by a hostile ideology. There really was an irresolvable conflict of interest here. Russia today seems to be more like a traditional great power which wishes to retain some influence in her neighbourhood. Obviously there needs to be a strong European deterrence so Russia doesn’t overstep certain limits (which need to be clearly communicated), but imo there is no fundamental conflict of ideology and systems here.
Europe’s political class is grotesquely incompetent. They’re good at bringing ever more negroes and Muslims to Europe though.
Well, you see this is where you and I part ways. I was brought up believing that the voice and will of the people are quite important factors in determining how a country is to be formed and governed. Because my parents believed in this as well, they immigrated away from Ukraine where they didn’t have these sorts of rights, and moved to America where they did. You don’t believe in the ideals of democracy and I do. You feel that I’m somehow less an American because I care for Ukraine, yet you consider yourself a first rate American because you shill for Russia? 🙁
The issue was NATO membership, decision for accepting new members lies with the existing members, not the applicants.
It’s telling you haven’t made a case what NATO’s existing members would gain from NATO accession of Ukraine, apart from ensuring a permanent antagonism with Russia which actually would lead to a massive deterioriation in European security.
Russia’s soft power abilities within Ukraine in 1991 were very developed (it still is). It should have waited things out, and applied utmost soft power pressure to get Ukraine into its camp once again. An association agreement with Europe is far different than complete membership or belonging to NATO. Instead, it decided to flex its muscles in Ukraine, and five years later what has this accomplished? The grand prize of Crimea and half of Donbas – I hope that it’ worth it for Russia.
Russia’s options in the Ukraine were constrained by the political actors present there. The “pro-Russian” alternative simply meant subsidising (bribing) opportunists and fair-weather friends.
To extend this situation simply meant delaying making a decision. One of the few decisions which could alter the scene would be a political reorganisation directed under direct rule from Moscow. But, well, we know what that would have lead to. It is under this reasoning that I state that Russia was faced with a hopeless and unfixable situation ever since 1991.
The Ukrainian people don’t get a vote in Germany, America, France, or Britain. Nor should they.
And yes, you are making a fantastic case against immigration of any sort right now. You’re demonstrating an entirely understandable loyalty to your ethnic homeland, but that loyalty is not necessarily in the interests of the country of which you are now a citizen.
Probably the original Americans would suggest that my lack of enthusiasm for democracy and world-saving crusades means I’m not a great American either.
As for shilling for Russia? Yes, I’ve endorsed the triune theory as being beneficial to Russia itself, and my antipathy to barely differentiated nationalities is well known. That doesn’t mean that as an American I support the Ruschluss. America’s interest lies in having good relations with Russia to prevent a Russian-Chinese combination.
Norway borders a nuclear-armed great power which is faced by that military alliance too and expanding the influence of that alliance to encompass the Ukraine is no more expansionist and inherently destabilizing than encompassing Norway.
Nobody in RF political/military elite really believes and fears NATO attack on RF (brainwashed ordinary folk may be another matter), they hate it basically because NATO membership creates very troublesome institutionalised obstacle for the potential re-expansion in neighbouring lands.
It’s the same with AP’s comments and the various Russians commenting from America (iirc Mikhail is a 3rd-generation Russian American, and of course there’s the “sovok” contingent like AnoninTn and Martyanov), really makes one wonder.
imo it was a great tragedy that the US didn’t stay predominantly Anglo-Saxon, the Ellis Island era immigration and everything that came after was clearly a disaster.
In all actuality, I feel that it’s my position, that the US should back Ukraine, that is the most congruent with US foreign policy, not yours that supports Russia. And this has been the case for a good portion of the 20th century and all of the 21st too!
It’s too bad or you that the vast majority of Ukrainians don’t feel this way and feel that the Triune Theorry is nothing more than a veneer for Great Russian chauvinism and imnperialism. You see Thorinnsson, the Triune theory was always promoted incorrectly, at the point of a gun leading non-believers into the Siberian gulag system.
Do you really believe that China doesn’t know where its bread gets buttered? To think that somehow China would trade its relatonship with the US for closer ties with Russia is the height of folly. At best (for China) it will continue to play both sides off one another, and will continue marching to the front of the line. The current spat is just raw material to make orange juice for Donald.
I would ask you the same thing I asked of Mr. Hack, which if you can read a map.
http://newcoldwar.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Map-Norway-Russia.jpg
The Norwegian-Russian frontier is remote from Russia’s center of gravity. The only important interest of Russia’s close to the border is Murmansk. But the terrain and infrastructure in the area is very poor, as demonstrated by the total failure of Operation Silver Fox during Barbarossa.
During the Cold War Norway also prohibited stationing foreign troops on its soil. In more recent times Russia has repeatedly protested the stationing of American forces at Vaernes.
It should also be pointed out that for naval reasons the incorporation of Norway into NATO offers security benefits to the alliance. During WW2 the German occupation of Norway made the Battle of the Atlantic substantially more difficult.
As for Russian expansionism, true enough. In general Russians do not accept the independence of the “Near Abroad”. Most Russian nationalists for instance appear to support the reexpansion of the Russian Galactic Empire into the Baltic states.
What benefits accrue to America from backing the Ukraine?
For that matter, which benefits would accrue to Germany from backing the Ukraine?
Do these benefits offset the negative consequences of a further deterioration in already bad relations with Russia?
China is clearly not yet willing to sacrifice Chimerica for a combination with Russia for the obvious reason that Russia offers China far fewer economic benefits. The current Chinese posture appears to be hoping that it will be business as usual once Trump leaves the scene.
This is a possible outcome, but not a guaranteed outcome. Trump is “succeeding” in pushing his trade war with China because there exists substantial backing for his policy in both major American political parties as well as within the military-industrial complex.
The American strategy with China adopted in the ’90s was to integrate China commercially into the world trade system. It was believed that this would weaken the CCP’s grip on Chinese society and generate a powerful class within China with a vested interest promoting the American world order. This obviously has not happened, which is why Trump has been able to push his confrontational policy. Note how he has had zero success in pushing the rest of his agenda because there is zero institutional support for that.
China is the only power which can actually challenge and threaten America (outside of a possible nuclear strike from Russia…). Russia is in China’s strategic rear and has most of the resources required for China to survive an American naval blockade. Driving these two powers into combination weakens American security and allows China to expand its power into the Pacific.
This is a very cavalierly attitude. It is easier to burn a bridge than to rebuild it. The USA has already alienated Russia, I very much doubt that the Chinese too, unless absolutely forced to, will tolerate a “return to normal” on anything but their terms (of course, if a Democrat enters then this is perhaps a possibility, but the distinction should be noted).
It was Zbigniew Brzezinski who made a strong case for keeping Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit. He felt that by doing so, Russia could not really aspire to becoming recognized as an empire. I think that he was on to something. Do you really think that a strong and reconstituted Russian empire is in the US best interests?
Arctic warfare was very hard indeed, but it would be misleading to tell it ended unsucesfully just purely because of military reasons as Finnish command ordered an end to the offensive despite positive feedback from the field commanders that further ground could be taken. The reason for this sudden change in Finnish behavior was the result of diplomatic pressure by the United States. Prior to the cancellation of the offensive, US diplomats warned Finland that a disruption of US deliveries to the Soviet Union would have serious consequences for Finland. Therefore, Finland became no longer interested in spearheading the offensive. With the Finnish refusal to be involved in the offensive, Arctic Fox came to an end in November of 1941 and both sides dug in for several years.
But all of this WWII ground experience is not that crucially important anyway nowdays because all kinds of ballistic missiles are not that sensitive to cold terrain and in grand scheme of things there is not much difference if those rockets would be launched from Norway or from Ukraine 😉
Zbigniew Brzezinski is was a Polish aristocrat. A class which is world-renowned for its great fondness of Russia, as the two countries have such a long history of mutually beneficial cooperation. Very surprising that such a figure has hostile views of Russia.
Z-big actually went through an interesting evolution in his views in the twilight of his life. In the 1990s he very much had the same views as he did during his time in power and promoted his concept of “the grand chessboard”. The grand chessboard was Eurasia, and America needed to prevent the rise of any hegemonic Eurasian power in order to maintain his own global hegemony.
This was in line with mainstream “elite” American foreign policy thinking since at least 1940, and was influenced by earlier British authors like Mackinder. Mainly it meant preventing Germany or Russia from gaining hegemony in Europe.
Towards the end of his life, his views changed. He accepted that America was in decline and that the world was becoming multipolar. He urged caution and preventing misunderstandings and miscalculations in America’s relations with the rising powers of Eurasia. Not just Russia, but also India, China, and even Turkey. See the NYT review of his last book here: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/30/books/strategic-vision-by-zbigniew-brzezinski.html
Zbig’s Republican doppelganger, Henry Kissinger, supports my views. He has suggested that the USA should invert the policy mix than he pursued during his time in power. At that time the Soviet Union was the great threat, so he supported the cultivation of China in order to threaten the USSR’s strategic rear and complicate its defense planning. This was successful, and his successor (Zbig) extended this policy with the destabilization of Afghanistan.
Today the power differential between Russia and China has completely inverted. Russian maintains strong military forces (especially nuclear), but it is otherwise a dwarf compared to China. It’s not that America has any interest in promoting a reconstituted Russian Galactic Empire, but that America has an interest in driving Russia and China apart. Pursuing this policy requires some accommodation of Russia.
America’s goal in the Ukraine should be to comprehensively end the destabilizing and dangerous conflict between Russia and the Ukraine. America and its European allies should seek to do the following:
First, the Russian annexation of Crimea should be accepted provided Russia agrees to pay substantial compensation to the Ukraine.
Second, the war in the Donets Basin should be terminated. The frontiers of the Donets’ republics should be settled by internationally observed referendums. The republics should be permitted to join the Russian Federation if this is their desire (and is welcomed by Moscow, which it might not be).
Third, the European treaty security system should be refreshed and updated. New and monitored treaties are required on intermediate range ballistic missiles, tactical nuclear weapons, anti-ballistic missile systems, and conventional armed forces. I would also suggest the planting of a deep “peace belt” forest between the Russian and Western camps.
Fourth, both the Ukraine and Russia should be integrated into the European economic system. Russia is a European country and despite improving commerce with China the vast majority of its trade is with Europe.
Ukrainian membership in NATO strikes me as a bad idea, but it could be tolerable with the previous four points accomplished. My fundamental preference would be for a deep neutralization of the Ukraine. If the Ukraine is ever to be a NATO member it should be stipulated by treaty that no other NATO forces are to be stationed in the Ukraine in peacetime. This could be monitored by Swiss and Swedish observers.
Without the massive influx of non-Anglo Europeans in the 19th and 20th centuries, the USA would probably be about 30%-40% black now.
That assumes that the Ellis Island immigrants had no depressive effects on the fertility of the native stock, which they likely did. In the absence of European mass migration to American Eastern and Midwestern industrial cities there would’ve been higher wages and lower housing prices.
The downside is that black economic migration to the North would’ve started earlier, and while non-Southern whites did show some inclination for ethnic defense (see for instance California’s own Jim Crowe laws), they were obviously not as proficient in this as Southerners. However Southern whites too would’ve migrated and perhaps would’ve balanced the matter.
That said the real problem other than the obvious (Jews) were the Irish, who proved to be very proficient in politics and still corrupt Northern municipal politics to this day. Just look at Illinois.
I suppose we should also add Italians with their proclivity for organized crime.
There were minor issues with lobbying by other Ellis Island groups, which may have motivated Robert Lansing’s decision to support the dismemberment of Austria-Hungary, but nothing serious.
The concept of the Hajnal Line didn’t exist back then, but aggressive Protestantism did. Limiting immigration to Protestant Europeans would’ve been almost ideal. May have had negative second order effects like making Canada and Australia more Irish Catholic, but that’s their problem.
With the 20,000 deaths each year – the person who pays the price for the deaths (by dying), is very often not the one who has the “freedom” of driving.
In the USSR, there was greater emphasis on public transportation, compared to the automobiles. As a result, many thousands of lives saved each year.
Also, if the USSR had not collapsed,cities like Chelyabinsk would have the metro completed by the late 1990s. Whereas with the Russian Federation, the result is now more than 27 years of delay and half built stations, as a result of the refusal of the federal government to prioritize financing of construction of infrastructure in the city.
And also some time in the morning and evening, saved. Again “freedom” can be staying in the traffic jam.
https://cs.pikabu.ru/images/big_size_comm/2013-07_4/13742293134941.jpg
I remembered you were living in Saratov and you are involved in a lot of business there (like opening helping to hotel chains there). I have not been in Saratov, although I heard a few things and there is some romantic “disaster porn” about what I hear about this city.
I have an Israeli friend from Saratov and he says his native city is a disaster. And now he lives in Bat Yam (which is shit to my eyes), and he thinks Bat Yam is great. So I don’t think he has high standards when he says Saratov is shit.
He had avoided conscription, emigrated to study medical school for free in Israel, and last year has started working as a doctor in Israel, so he has been clever to escape Saratov.
Why did you choose Saratov as a center of your business? Also I was going to ask you earlier if you had any interesting knowledge about last year’s disaster of Saratov Airlines?
Ukraine needs to increase its trade relations with the EU, perhaps as the only plausible way to leave third world economic situation within an acceptable time.
Ukraine are next to some of the fastest growing economies in the developed world (Hungary, Poland, Slovakia), and yet Ukraine is excluded from this economic wealth and fast development of the EU economy, while watching their neighbours becoming decades more economically advanced than they are – it has not been a tolerable situation.
However, the EU has included a binary clause in their free trade proposal to Ukraine – Kiev had to either choose free trade with the EU, or with the Customs Union of Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Armenia.
This force of decision was not from the Russia side, but from the EU side. And other countries were allowed to negotiate free trade with both the EU and then Customs Union (now Eurasian Economic Union).
But Ukraine was forced for a decision of one or the other, which was inevitably going to create a crisis.
From any economic analysis, it is rational to prefer free trade with economic powerhouse of the EU, than economically weak Eurasian Economic Union, if you are forced into an exclusionary choice of one or the other.
But why did Ukraine have to choose one or the other in exclusion? This was the EU which forced this decision, not Russia. Russia was open to Ukraine having open economic relations with both sides. And EU’s forcing of this choice between one or other sides, meant that to some extent a crisis was inevitable.
EU with Russia + Ukraine as members or with a Swiss type deep cooperation arrangement will result in an entity self sufficient in natural resources,containing 700 million + well educated whites inhabiting an area 3X+ of the US.Such an entity will likely dwarf the US as the world’s pre eminent superpower in less than a generation. Also post Brexit the US will no longer have it’s most significant Trojan horse at the high table inside the EU.
I believe the US deep state will never back any reconciliation with Russia to thwart the possibility of just such an outcome.
This would require Europe not merely to federate politically, but to mentally and spiritually conceive of itself as an independent great power separate and distinct from the United States.
In addition to Europeans not being prepared at this time to think that way, there’s the fact that “Atlanticism” isn’t just a state of mind in a certain class of European politicians. The existence of NATO itself intertwines the security, diplomatic, and defense policies of Europe with the United States (and Canada).
Perhaps more importantly, there also exists a shared transatlantic capital market which circulates not just money but also personnel. It is further possible to build on this transatlantic capital market with still deeper trade and economic links.
That said, if Europe were to free itself from the United States and become an independent great power, that might not be a bad outcome. It would prompt a return to American geopolitics to the pre-1937 period, a time when the country was much better run and blundered into far fewer overseas military debacles.
If Britain were to remain outside of this European combination and become an outpost of American power, it would also comfortably place the American security periphery very distant from the heartland.
That’s a fantasy imo. The EU doesn’t even work all that well between its founding members (e.g. Italy-Germany) and might well break apart due to the Euro issue; and of course there’s the migration problem which will render any dreams of an independent Europe obsolete, if there isn’t a drastic course correction in key countries (which looks unlikely right now).
Some form of mutually beneficial relations between the EU and Russia would be desirable though.
Norway has never been in the Russian sphere of influence. Ukraine has never been part of NATO. These things and their perception are path dependent. Changing the status quo is different from trying to preserve it.
Russia is neither strong nor aggressive enough to start or even risk a war to change the status quo with regards to Norway (or the Baltic states), but it’s probably going to be desperate enough to do that with regards to Ukraine.
However, Vishnagupta might be onto something regarding US strategic thinking on these issues.
Sort of.
Historically America has supported European integration and expansion, provided it stopped short of the formation of a European army. And even this was not always true, as the Eisenhower administration had as an eventual objective the departure of American military forces from Europe and supported the formation of the European defense community. Early postwar British governments were advised by America to seek integration with Europe. American pressure was in a way instrumental for the founding of the EU because America flatly rejected French schemes to take over German industry.
American leaders and economists did caution against the Eurozone, which European leaders assumed was simply sour grapes and a desire to prevent competition with Wall Street, but the American economists turned out to be right. In the ongoing Eurozone crisis of the past decade (!), the US Treasury Dept. and Federal Reserve have consistently weighed in against the lunatic German position, mostly unsuccessfully. There was an amusing incident where China and the USA ganged up against Europe at an IMF conference and got the Mexican finance minister to denounce European pleading and decrepitude while Japan quietly bailed out the Eurozone.
This has changed in the Trump administration, partly because of traditional Republican antipathy to “multilateralism” and partly simply of an opportunistic desire to exploit BREXIT (held up by American…chicken farming interests–seriously).
Outside of the period from 2002-2006 when “Old Europe” and America were at odds over America’s idiotic invasion of Iraq, generally I don’t get the impression that America has ever had any problem with the European project. If Europe were to federate, start building (real) aircraft carriers, demand the withdrawal of American military installations, etc. then that would change.
Sure, the US wants European countries to be impotent, obedient vassals (a view that has resonance with a non-trivial part of the American public because Europeans had colonial empires and brought about two world wars, so they’d better submit to America’s wise and benevolent hegemony. They’re also antisemitic and need to be reminded of their obligations towards Jews and Israel). If there ever was any doubt about that, Trump’s administration has removed it, one only has to look at the Twitter account of Trump’s homo ambassador to Germany, or think about farces like Trump’s bullying of Sweden for some moronic American rapper.
In that regard I also wonder if Brexit should really be considered a positive development, both for Britain and for continental Europe. I don’t buy for one minute that someone like John Bolton is in favour of it because of some principled concern for British sovereignty, there’s some other agenda behind it.
Trump’s bullying of Sweden should be understood in the context of American domestic politics. The remaining MAGAtards like to trumpet the concept of BLEXIT. Black Americans will any day now see that their true political interest is in leaving the Democrat welfare plantation and voting for corporate tax cuts. Or something.
And while that won’t happen, from a purely cynical angle Trump’s bullying might have been wise. Republicans will vote for Trump anyway and moderates will vote on economic concerns. If just a few blacks in a few states either vote Republican or don’t vote at all because of Trump’s bullying then it was a success. Though probably it did nothing and will be totally forgotten by next year anyway.
BREXIT possibly would’ve been a positive development for continental Europe prior to the Eurozone and “refugee” crises. Now it’s just a distraction and possibly economically harmful. The US for its part sees an opportunity to completely integrate the UK into Wall Street and is acting upon it. Britain is also seen as America’s most loyal military ally, something which a lot of UK politicians enjoy as it gives them a feeling of importance. Witness Britain collaborating not just with American provocations against Iran, but even against China.
I was excited by BREXIT when it occurred, but realistically it’s hard to see how any good for the UK will come of it. The European Union itself isn’t the problem. European politicians and voters are, and leaving the EU solves neither of those problems.
Well, without constant practice, the accent will slip but they were good. I cannot two or three sentences in simple Russian and people think I’m local. My grammatical!standard is very low but I learnt my speech from Russians in Saratov, where there is no accent. In Moscow they know I have spent time on the Volga.
The function of pro-black utterances is not to woo blacks to vote for Trump (they won’t do that in meaningful numbers), nor even to depress Democratic black turnout (though it might have a little chance). It’s largely directed at whites. A big chunk of white voters need to convince themselves that voting for Trump is not racist, and these things help them. Absent this kind of signaling, their turnout might be lower and they might even vote Democratic.
Yes, but imo participation in a war against Iran would be absolutely disastrous for Britain. More generally, I think it’s clear that Boris “amnesty for 500 000 illegal immigrants” Johnson and his crew of Ayn Rand-worshippers and friends of Zion are intent on using Brexit for purposes which have little to do with what many Brexit voters actually want.
I agree with you about European politicians and voters, the delusional beliefs held by far too many Europeans are the core problem.
I doubt war with Iran would be disastrous for Britain. Stupid, but not disastrous. It’s hard to see how Iran or its proxies could do much to harm Britain itself, short of some kind of fantasy of war against Iran creating a global alliance against the “Anglo-Zionist Empire” that The Faker imagines will happen Real Soon Now. I suppose he expects Moscow will react to a strike on Tehran by ordering a nuclear strike on London.
The likely negative consequences for Britain of participating in a war against Iran would be casualties, financial losses, and perhaps hostage taking. Undesirable and obviously best avoided, but not an existential danger to Britain itself. Unless you know something about this I don’t know.
BREXIT voters seem to mostly want an end to mass immigration, which many Britons have convinced themselves is the fault of the EU and not their own government. Angela Merkel did much to reinforce this mistaken idea in Britain.
There is also perhaps among older British voters a nostalgia for British industry, global prominence, and empire. You can see this in talk of reviving the commonwealth, ties to the former dominions, etc. Their useless carrier program is a good example of this. Nostalgia is nice but not a basis for policy. I suppose they could revive imperial measurements if they want.
One of the parents was born on former Russian Empire territory and later became a Soviet citizen, in part because one of his parents was a Soviet citizen. Some white Russians chose to remain in the former Russian Empire. The same holds true of anti-Communist Croats, Serbs, Poles et al, relative to their respective nation.
Certainly not existential (I agree that Iran’s options are limited, though terror attacks in Britain itself can’t be excluded imo), but it would deepen the rifts in British society even more, because it would be an especially stupid and unnecessary war. The polarization from Brexit alone is already pretty disturbing, a war with Iran would be traumatizing.
My father knows people in Lancashire whose relatives voted for Brexit, because they hoped to “get rid of the Pakis”. Similar sentiments, if maybe a bit less extreme, must be quite common (especially in Northern England, where people have felt neglected and abused by the London-based establishment for a long time), iirc there was some study by Eric Kaufmann from the London school of economics which showed immigration – and especially non-European immigration – was a top concern for Brexit voters. But of course that’s denied by Brexit’s official spokesmen who seem quite enthusiastic about that fabulous Commonwealth immigration.
For all kinds of reasons, such a “reconciliation” would be undesirable in Russia.
Even a free trade agreement with the EU which would be positive overall, would damage a lot of businessmen.
More free labour movement between Russia and the EU, is already quite dangerous – if you open labour movement, how will you stop millions of young people (which they will take the suitcase tomorrow) from emigrating to Germany or the UK?
Visas are a nightmare currently, and there is a very large braindrain problem, including to UK and US. But when the salary of McDonald’s in Germany is more than 5 times higher than McDonald’s in Russia – how will you stop ordinary labour from leaving, if ordinary labour is able to attain visas (as would be likely with any integration to EU)?
As for oil, gas and other natural resources and commodities? The least “fungible” one, which needs the most infrastructure, is gas, and yet gas goes to the EU market already, and there is no need for political reconciliation for even collaboration with current pipeline projects.
The odds of the EU permitting visa-free migration from a European country (can’t claim “racism” as is done by the Turks) with a population of 150 million are precisely zero. Even if the EU were open to such a scheme, Russian negotiators of any agreement would also flatly reject the idea. There’s no population of idle, troublesome surplus males to export nor any need for remittance income (Russia has a massive trade surplus). Instead large-scale labor emigration would produce labor shortages and upward pressure on wages, as well as further draw in Central Asian guest workers that would undermine the political support of the government.
On the other hand, inefficient Russian businesses would obviously lobby against true free trade with the European Union as well and probably successfully.
So improved economic relations between Europe and Russia would take the form of improving existing commercial arrangements and eliminating sanctions. There’s scope for further expansion in some areas, such as more production of machinery and aircraft components in Russia. That’s a modest goal which could be easily achieved in the absence of American Russophobia.
I don’t understand the byzantine workings of EU politics, so presumably the Poles could shut such a scheme down. But in the absence of American support would the Poles really be able to overcome the united position of France, Germany, and Italy?
The Polish aristocracy was by no means of the same mindset towards Russia. They were mostly all anti-Communist (Dzerzhinsky came from a Polish aristocratic background), with some having differing views on Russia. Zbig was clearly of an anti-Russian and anti-Soviet mindset.
During the so-called Orange Revolution, he romanticized about that movement spilling over to Russia. If I’m not mistaken, in later years, he joined a wing of the US foreign policy establishment, believing that Russia would eventually distance itself from China and move towards the West, because of a weak Russian position, combined with an eventual desire from Russia to counter growing Chinese power.
Within neocon and neolib leaning circles, this belief includes the notion that because Russia is weak, the West should give the finger to Russian geopolitical concerns like in its near abroad. That’s the kind of mindset keeping Russia away from the West.
Kind of reminded how many were surprised by the Nazi-Soviet pact. It was assumed that such couldn’t happen. Poland was among those taken by surprise.
The geopolitical lesson in all this is that it can prove costly to underestimate what a given nation might do, on account of believing that nation has limited options.
As for Russia giving compensation to Ukraine over Crimea – not until Serbia is offered a mutually agreeable amount for Kosovo.
Obviouly you’re not very well acquainted with Polish/Russian historical dynamics. Poles, if nothing else (whether patrician or plebian) are known for their historic animosity towards Russia and Russians. From early confrontations during the Rus period, to classic wars during the Cossack period, to the partitions of their great state with Russia taking a lead role in it dismemberment in the 18th century, Poles and Russians have not gotten along. Zbig’s father was a Polish diplomat, and he and his son sat by incredulously witnessing the invasion of Poland by both Russia and Germany after the conclusion of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
Zbig got a chance to show his “geat fondness” for his fellow aristocrats in Russia when he lured them into Afghanistan, that really was the beginning of the end of the Soviet Union. He and only Pope John II have left an unsavory taste in the mouths of Sovok, that really was the heart and soul of Russian chauvinists toward the end o the 20th century.
One thing for sure, Brzezinki was always steadfast in his support for a free and independent Ukraine. He often visited Ukraine even towards the end of his life and his message never waivered as to the necessity of keeping Ukraine free and independent. This short message is very representative of his lifelong support of Ukraine:
https://youtu.be/CbELpDfPmz0
Thorfinnsson was being ironic, quite obviously so.
I hope so!
I’ve never opined that Ukraine needs to become a member of NATO. You’re right, NATO members need to sort out whether they need or want Ukraine to become a member state.
Yes, a very large % of the leave voters in the UK voted leave as a protest against Paki immigration. very stupid
The remain voters who control the country will increase non EU immigration just to spite the leave voters. very stupid
The USA would collapse before something like that happened(or Black population numbers would collapse, one way or the other). What you’re suggesting is not plausible.
The impact of Ellis Islanders has been completely negative. It’s quite possible without their entrance, that the current trend of multiculturalism worldwide would never have taken off.
It’s good that at least someone is thinking of our interests.
Still, the scenarios of Crimea and Kosovo are not entirely the same. They are in fact almost complete opposites. There is still a Serbian minority population of around 20% on Kosovo whose numbers are growing (they actually have birth rates above 2.1 as unbelievable as it sounds) while that of the rival Albanian population is decreasing (low birthrates and emigration). Kosovo as a country itself is a joke. Kosovo would literally fall apart in 2 days by itself without any US and international aid. Also, the only reason why Kosovo is de facto not a part of Serbia is because of the US military occupation of the province with Camp Bondsteel plus a whole bunch of other “international community” forces. Serbia needs patience. It will win with Kosovo in the long term since both demographic trends on Kosovo and the international geo-political situation is turning in Serbia’s favor with each passing day. Of course, Serbia is far from being in the clear yet, since hostile forces still have the ability to impose an arbitrary settlement on Serbia, but a liberation of Kosovo is absolutely possible.
Thorfinsson, since you are such a geo-political expert, what is your opinion on the Balkans situation in Bosnia and Kosovo? Especially, what is your opinion on the US military presence in those places?
Why? Just do the math.
We know that Anglos and northern Europeans are the strongest proponents of multiculturalism and the most eager to extinguish themselves. Just look at the UK, Sweden, Canada, Germany, etc.
This trend in the USA would be worse if not for the Ellis Islanders and those who came after. It would just be like liberal New England and Minnesota everywhere.
High birth rates is largely a moral issue. Poor material conditions don’t stop fecund people from reproducing (see Africa, or for that matter Ireland once).
However to the extent this this is true, (to your next point) there would be a lot more room for even more poor black demographic expansion.
Overall, without Ellis Island immigration of Italians, Irish, and eastern Europeans there would be about 44 million blacks as there are now, but perhaps only 120 million or so whites (currently the USA has 197 million non-Hispanic whites). This is not a recipe for a global superpower.
So an America that would be 30% to 40% black and whose whites are mostly like Swedes, English, Germans, as we see in California, Minnesota, New England. True, the Scotch-Irish in Appalachia and the other Southerners would be more strongly represented, but they would still be outnumbered by the far more leftist Northern White population.
I think it’s both. Trump does seem to do some outreach to blacks (as evidenced by his friendship with Kanye West). He just doesn’t patronize them as do White leftists.
What the fuck are you talking about? Why should we care about our “collective prestige”? What does some corrupt American politician have to do with us or our “collective prestige”? Our “collective prestige” would in any case be better served by collectively dragging ourselves up out of the spiritual, cultural and intellectual mud we’ve been in for the last 75 years, if not longer.
Ahistorical. Germany being a proponent of multiculturalism would be a recent development and one very much at odds with say, Germany of the 1930s. Anglo societies used to have anti-miscegenation and segregation laws. Canada is different owing to its French Canadian population.
If non-Anglo and non-northern European societies were anywhere near as prosperous, they would be flooded with immigrants. Belarus is not lacking immigrants because they are working hard to keep people out. It’s because the country is poor.
Southern and most of Eastern Europe actually experienced fertility declines before Northern European countries did, by the way.
This remark is particularly dumb. Minnesota’s political tendencies are more the result of Scandinavian and German Lutherans who are descendants of Ellis Islanders. Incidentally Lutherans along with Catholics are mostly responsible for various “charity” organizations that lobby the government for and provide services for refugees and immigrants.
You also obviously ignore the fact that English ancestry is also present in the South which historically has not been liberal on these or most other issues.
We are also supposed to ignore that Ellis Islanders are the ones who voted for most of this stuff
Poor material conditions in Africa don’t stop people from reproducing because of aid, trade, and disease eradication by Whites. Africa used to be lightly populated.
Vermont was a Republican state until the 1980s. New Hampshire has long been a Republican state and has only become known as a swing state since the 90s. You’re assuming New England Whites have been a monolithic political group for decades. This is not the case. Irish Catholics and Italians until recently were however, which is how groups like the Kennedy’s built their political power.
I don’t know why you cite California, which is a hodgepodge, as an example.
Those factors keep the population growing by bringing down deaths rates but don’t speak to number of children. My point was that even dirt poor people in bad conditions often have lots of kids. The fact that many of them don’t survive to adulthood doesn’t change that.
Northern liberal Republicans who invaded the South and ended slavery.
Modern conservatives have been heavily Catholic. Bannon, Scalia, etc. WASPS, not so much.
America got German liberal refugees.
They sure did. What is the UK like now? Canada? Much more liberal than the USA that has had the advantage of hordes of ethnic “Reagan Democrats” and their kids.
If you were paying attention, you would know that Thorfinnson proposed allowing Scandinavians and Germans in. That’s the context of the discussion.
If we change the parameters to exclude all non-English immigration after, say, 1850 (when blacks were 16% of the population), then blacks might well be 40% to 50% of the US population by now.
The ones who were crushed by the northern English.
Why not do both?
The Polish aristocracy in fact had elements which at times favored Russia over a nationalist trend in Poland.
Part of this had to do with the belief that a Polish uprising would in the long run, if not short run, screw the interests of the Polish nobility.
During the Russian Civil War, not all Poles were pleased with Pilsudski’s selling out of the Whites as he made a then secret agreement with the Bolshes.
Stephen Cohen said something that has been previously stated about how there’re a roughly 15% of Poles who are favorable towards Russia.
As for Brzezinski’s love of freedom, this was shown by his enthusiastic support for the so-called Afghan freedom fighters, who back in the 1980s had an otherwise noticeable elememnt with neanderthal views on ideals associated with modern Western political and social norms.
Reagan and his ilk are responsible for turning the Republican Party in a pro-immigration direction.
I’m not sure what Germans “being different” means exactly. You are cherry picking particular tendencies that exist now and projecting them back 150+ years as if they have always been that way and are inevitable. One of the claims you made based on the idea is that Northern Euros and Anglos are the most pro-migration. But if one even blinks at any of the history between, this view makes no sense. Germany not being keen on multiculturalism in the 1930s is an obvious example of this. One could give other examples of this. The eugenics movement from early in the 20th century was most prominent in Anglo, Scandinavian, and Swiss countries(later Germany as well), while the Catholics were against it.
This has nothing to do with your claim that Minnesota whites are a representative of what the U.S. would like if there were no Ellis Islanders. Since many Minnesota whites are in fact the descendants of Ellis Islanders, you were mistaken on this point. This is the case regardless of what one may think of the quality of German Ellis Islanders or of Germans in general.
Here’s the original German_Reader statement:
To which you responded that Ellis Islanders saved the U.S. from being 40% Black society.
You claimed all of the United States would look like liberal California, New England, and Minnesota if not for Ellis Islanders. I point to the South as a region that is different from those three and not because of Ellis Islanders. Your response: “Look a squirrel!”
I’ve my views, while seeking to be more fair and balanced than those with the opposite slant.
You touch on a point I’ve made on how Kosovo doesn’t seem as better a success story as Crimea, despite the West having poured in a great amount of aid into that disputed territory.
The Serbs still have UNSC 1244 as a valid talking point. Wasn’t aware of what you say of Kosovo demographics since around 1999. Up to now, I’ve been of the impression that the Serbs are no more than 10% of K’s population. I do know about how many Albs have left Kosovo, including using Serbia proper (for lack of a better term) as a transit route.
Regarding Serbia and Russia:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/twisted-history-against-russia-and-serbia/5390154
Forgot to add, that there’re numerous Russian people of aristocratic and non-aristocratic backgrounds with Polish roots who ridicule Zbig’s rants against Russia.
Like Afghanistan, Zbig sees Ukraine in an image to support his convoluted biases.
De Gaulle: a man of the day before yesterday, and the day after tomorrow. He knew the UK was not the place for Britain.
Brexit was about Poles ect., keeping wages down: they had an absolute right to come which the EU refused to budge on for Cameron. Now they are refusing to budge again.
Totally off topic even on an open thread, but it’s always been my nightmare. Interesting that the things proposed were still not implemented. I keep the baby seat right behind the driver seat. Probably a bad idea.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/fatal-distraction-forgetting-a-child-in-thebackseat-of-a-car-is-a-horrifying-mistake-is-it-a-crime/2014/06/16/8ae0fe3a-f580-11e3-a3a5-42be35962a52_story.html
Interestingly Johnson’s part Iranian chum Darius Guppy just wrote this article for the prestigious Spectator. The Bolton types are already spitting feathers about the release of the Iranian tanker.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/what-britain-can-learn-from-iran-about-sovereignty/
Johnson has his faults but he is very worldly and understands how the reality of the world. I was watching his father on a teevee programme where he went to Russia, he was saying how ridiculous all this stuff about Russia is, his son no doubt agrees. The neocon faction have always disliked Johnson.
The Centurion tank was a revolutionary tank, surprisingly given how awful allied tanks were otherwise. Would have made a meaningful difference if they had been available in meaningful numbers from D-Day onwards.
I was in Sweden at the time and the Swedish media was hysterical about Trump attacking that Somalian woman in Congress, the ridiculous Rocky ASAP thing so soon after provoked some amusing contortions in the Swedish media. Whether by design or not it did show up his critics as ridiculous.
By the way the carrier programme was more about distributing pork by Gordon Brown to Scottish shipyard workers. It makes no military sense.
Your comment and the blog post are certainly encouraging, though I’d point out that the neocon faction disliked Trump, also, yet managed to co-opt him once he was in power.
Well, it depends on what you define as a success story. If you define a Muslim majority, pseudo-historical, ethnic Albanian statelet carved out of Serb land which serves as an international hub of Islamic terrorism, drug trafficking, organ trafficking, and other criminal trafficking as a success, then Kosovo currently is a massive success.
UNSC 1244 is practically worthless for Serbia. It stated that Kosovo would be an autonomous province of Serbia where UN and other international forces would occupy the province instead of the Serbian Army, which was deliberately forbidden. Military presence over Kosovo is everything. A country cannot truly own something it doesn’t have a military presence or occupation over.
Milosevic only accepted UNSC 1244 after the 78 day bombing campaign and 1999 Kosovo War. Much more so because of civilian casualties and infrastructure damage from bombing, instead of battlefield results. Serbs actually tactically won the Kosovo War in the Battles of Kosare and Pastrik as they repelled the UCK and NATO invasion forces from Albania, while successfully keeping the UCK insurgency in their rear on Kosovo under control. Like in the 1389 Battle of Kosovo, Serbs won a tactical defensive victory, but ultimately a Pyrrhic victory due to geopolitics and the overwhelming resources of the invaders compared to Serbs, in both 1389 and 1999. Milosevic arguably shouldn’t have agreed to The Treaty of Kumamovo from which came UNSC 1244, since the military situation was still solid 78 days later, but civilian casualties and infrastructure damage would’ve only grown.
I’m not sure which was the right option for Milosevic to choose then, but my opinion is that 1999 was really an inevitable outcome that only could’ve been stopped back in 1991 and 1992 when Yugoslavia was more wholesome and the Croat separatists could’ve been easily defeated by Milosevic with the JNA. Defeating separatist forces back in 1991 and 1992 could’ve guaranteed a Yugoslavia without Slovenia and minus a Croatia along the Varazdin-Zagreb line straight to the coast (so one that seceded on borders favourable to Serbs instead of on AVNOJ borders), but a Yugoslavia with more population and resources that could’ve been smoothly transformed into a larger Serbia. Instead, Milosevic’s indecisiveness in sending the JNA halfway into Krajina, and then withdrawing the JNA east of the river Drina led to the mess from 1992-1999 and the current state of affairs.
Anyway, the USA mortally violated UNSC 1244 in 2008 when it encouraged Albanians on Kosovo to declare independence and pushed its allies and puppets to recognise it. UNSC 1244’s only value was that it stated Kosovo was a part of Serbia, but it is practically worthless otherwise, as the only desirable outcome for Serbia involves returning its army to Kosovo and securing Kosovo as a part of Serbia.
A lot of Serbs aren’t aware of this either, as false demographic statistics spread by Albanians dominate world media coverage. Kosovo is a small piece of land over which a person can drive in a car from one end to another in about 2 hours. Kosovo is also half the size of Serbia’s northern province, Vojvodina (A province stuck with the Yugo-Communist AVNOJ legacy of a harmful, costly and unnecessary autonomy), which has 2 million people. Half of Kosovo is also uninhabitable mountains, highlands and hills, which means that Kosovo does not have more than 1 million people in any scenario. It is plausible and realistic that there are around 200,000 Serbs versus around 750,000 Albanians plus a smaller number of Roma, Gorani and so on.
Demographics is not the long term problem for Serbia as far as Kosovo is concerned, it is geo-politics and the foreign military occupation. Even worse, “Kosovo’s” new police force is an effective continuation of the UCK which means that the Serbian population of Kosovo is at the mercy of Albanian terrorists and criminal scum like Agim Ceku, Hashim Thaci and Ramush Haradinaj (they will let him off or lightly punish him for his recent Hague summons). This means that the Serbian population of Kosovo is still endangered and exists on Kosovo under the pressure of being ethnically cleansed and mass murdered (In 2018, Albanians poisoned a water well for a Serb village on Kosovo). Note that Ramush Haradinaj is a man that has written and published books where he openly recounts and brags about killing Serbian civilians and prisoners of war, even also of harvesting their organs. Also, earlier in 2019, he literally went to the US and publicly said that he is a loyal soldier of the USA against Serbia and Russia.
Regarding Russians and Serbs, you’re right in that both mainstream and revisionist western historiography is rigged against us. Still, nearly everything in the world is rigged against us (most especially western media propaganda and geopolitical conduct against us). Your article on this matter is for the most part quite good, and I actually came across it by chance last year. Still, it holds back from the full truth, but since it would be so unacceptable for people brainwashed with propaganda to swallow, it’s good enough since you genuinely did aim for objectivity in writing it.
Nonsense. Learn some history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-Eighters
Many German Forty-Eighters settled in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, helping solidify that city’s progressive political bent and cultural Deutschtum. The Acht-und-vierzigers and their descendants contributed to the development of that city’s long Socialist political tradition.[6] Others settled throughout the state.
In the United States, most Forty-Eighters opposed nativism and slavery, in keeping with the liberal ideals that had led them to flee Europe. In the Camp Jackson Affair in St. Louis, Missouri, a large force of German volunteers helped prevent Confederate forces from seizing the government arsenal just prior to the beginning of the American Civil War.[7] About two hundred thousand German-born soldiers enlisted in the Union Army, ultimately forming about 10% of the North’s entire armed forces. 13,000 Germans served in Union Volunteer Regiments from New York alone.
After the Civil War, Forty-Eighters supported improved labor laws and working conditions. They also advanced the country’s cultural and intellectual development in such fields as education, the arts, medicine, journalism, and business.
::::
Old German immigration consisted of German liberals who were different from the people left behind in Germany, whose descendants would become Nazis..
I wrote:
“True, the Scotch-Irish in Appalachia and the other Southerners would be more strongly represented, but they would still be outnumbered by the far more leftist Northern White population.”
Pay better attention.
The US military presence in those places is completely ridiculous and should be terminated. We have no real interests in the Balkans at all other than trade. Camp Bondsteel ought to be a national embarrassment.
Bosnia is a failed state, Kosovo needs to be partitioned, and Serbia should get compensation. But I don’t see any reason for America to be involved in any of that, especially as organizing this process would be tantamount to admitting we were wrong (which we were, but you don’t tell people that).
Inner Hajnal whites have been regulating fertility in response to material conditions for centuries. Outside of the upper class this remained true until the 1960s, which is why American TFR reached nearly 4 during the 1950s and the average age of marriage dropped to 22 in that decade.
Even today the Amish follow the old pattern. They have a very high TFR, but interestingly it varies with the business cycle.
Rudyard Kipling famously described England as a country with a high birth rate and a low murder rate, which in his day was true. But the English would not reproduce unless they could afford to do so, unlike the Irish.
A hypothetical America without Ellis Island immigration could also have an improved policy to deal with its black population.
And personally I’d be more than happy to trade superpower status for the country never having suffered the baleful influence of Jewry.
Other troublesome Ellis Island whites (which was not all of them, to be clear–mainly the Irish and the Italians) were not permanently troublesome after all. There is still a legacy of political corruption from them, but that has faded and they’re mostly like other American whites by now.
The Centurion was the best tank of the early Cold War, but it wasn’t revolutionary. Late war tank design evolved on similar lines in Germany (two years ahead of everyone else), the USSR, and the USA.
Centurions instead of Shermans in 1944-1945 certainly would’ve helped, but probably not as much as tank enthusiasts think. Compare Dubno to Prokhorovka for instance.
Modern conservatives have been heavily Catholic. Bannon, Scalia, etc. WASPS, not so much.
Conservative Inc (think tanks, National review, TV pundits, etc) have been heavily Catholic (and Jewish) – and how good a job have they done on immigration & multiculturalism? – but the overwhelming number of votes for Republicans comes from WASPs and ethnic Germans in every region of the country.
The most reliable large white voting block for Democrats in the north east has been Irish Catholics. (Smaller white voting blocks like Greeks have also been reliable Dems). The parts of New England that are WASP – including ‘Scotch-Irish’ – still vote Republican for the most part.
Hajnal whites regulated fertility by delaying marriage and, presumably, coitus interruptus. They had the children they could afford to have instead of outsourcing the work to malnutrition and disease. This pattern persisted until the 1960s, though the rot did begin in the upper class in the 19th century.
It is true and important to point out that not all of our problems are the result of Jewish influence.
But Anglo-American whites also pioneered race biology, intelligence research, eugenics, segregation, and anti-miscegenation statutes. It’s sometimes mentioned in Holocaust scholarship today that in looking for places to pattern legislation on, the National Socialists found much to admire in the United States.
The modern conservative movement was largely founded by WASPs in dissent to the Franklin Delano Roosevelt administration.
That said, it does appear true that Catholics today play an outsize role. The inherent conservatism of the Catholic church (the current globohomo communist Pope aside) and the strong intellectual firepower of Catholic scholarship might be why.
Sure, you can find anomalies and contra-trends to almost anything, but when surveying the vast sweep of history I wouldn’t characterize the relationship between Poland and Russia as a series of lovefests leading to any sort of mutual admirations society. I think that you’re barking up the wrong tree here. You might have better luck with Serbia or Bulgaria, although even here I see that for the occassional sign of “druzhba” when push came to shove these two also ended up on the other side of Putler’s new iron curtain.
And to think that this Polack was able to raise his stature to the very apex of American society, his opinions guiding Western foreign policy, notwithstanding his “convoluted biases” and yet you, who is an icon of clear and objective thinking, is still wallowing in the dust of New York city obscurity, trying to spread the truth to various ungrateful and unappreciative hacks and doubters of every rank and stripe imaginable. Oh, the vagaries and unfairness of life! 🙁
Ilhan Omar is a twice-divorced “muslim” who participates in pride parades and is now interacially dating a White man. I am not exactly shocked that she was elected in Minnesota, the state with the highest percentage of Scandinavians. Nor am I shocked by her hypocrisy. I see that daily here.
And yet for all of its posturing to the left (there’s actually always been a strong conservative/Republican base in Minnesota too that you don’t often hear about), Minnesota is one of the the greatest states in the Union to live within. Corporate America is well represnted there, and suprisingly enough isn’t totally frightened with what some would consider an onerous tax rate. Minnesota’s landscpape is dotted with fabulous schools, theaters. churches. parks and all manner of other amenities. The great outdoors in Minnesota has plenty to offer. I would rank the Twin Cities as within the top 5 urban areas to live in the US. If it weren’t for the long, grey and cold winters…and the incongruous mix of some ethnic groups that can’t really seem to blend in…Ilhan is of what group?…
Political liberalism, in current format, seems simply to be created by wealth and a comfortable life. At least when this is combined with higher IQ populations (but perhaps even politics of low IQ countries like UAE and Qatar, will transform to some form of liberalism as a result of their wealth).
It’s nothing special about English – except that many places where English live, are far wealthier than the world average, and create the utopian conditions for those political beliefs.
And Marx didn’t predict this very well. He would predict why class interest Orange County of California votes for Republicans (tax reductions). But I don’t recall in his text anything to predict current political views of Massachusetts in America or Hampstead in London, which is what happens when they reach a luxury level where people can afford to oppose, or pretend to oppose, their class interests.
The Minnesota corporate income tax rate is indeed onerous. Frankly it’s appalling.
That said, companies like 3M and Target don’t pay income taxes based on their global or even national profits to the Minnesota DoR. Corporate earnings are taxed where they are made, and large corporations are experts at shifting earnings to more attractive tax domiciles.
Hence why so many corporate profits are generated in Ireland and Puerto Rico…
Here’s a popular, amusing tax strategy called Double Irish With A Dutch Sandwich: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double-irish-with-a-dutch-sandwich.asp
And yes, Minnesota is a nice place other than the income tax (which is offset by modest cost of living) and the winters.
Divorce is okay in Islam. “Dating” is not okay. Especially dating a non-Muslim.
I just find it funny. I see such “muslims” all the time here which is why I tend to view the theories of an imminent submerging of Sweden into Eurabia with an amused glare.
As I’ve stated before, many of these cultures actually need Islam, because otherwise their communities turn into Brazil and/or inner-city ghetto areas of the US. I’m not saying white people are in great shape socially/culturally, but for whatever reason we can handle relative liberalism better than these nonwhite groups. Omar is actually doing real damage here by being the token muslim but in actual effect just being another race-mixing roastie who assimilated into white liberal Culture, given her influence among younger women with her background. She’s already one of the most influential nonwhite women of the US.
This is assimilation of the worst kind, and what many ‘conservatives’ want when they oppose multiculturalism. It’s also my experience that many of these assimilating nonwhites tend to be the ones most likely to engage in anti-white racial SJW politics, even as they suck on white dicks, whereas more religious minorities (in a non-token way) keep to themselves both politically and culturally. Naturally, I want neither group around, but I’d prefer the latter before deportation can commence.
Islamic terrorism also seems to come from lapsed Muslims who are trying to rediscover their roots and instead of following their religion (which is very hard, they also have zero connection to the original tradition, and believe ISIS to be the only true Islam) they simply try to atone for their previous sins by going out in a blaze of violence.
His stances (that have been taken by some others) greatly explain US foreign policy shortcomings. Your histrionic sidebars aside, this is something which you haven’t been able to prove differently.
Among your other errors, I’m not in NYC.
For that matter, Polish-Ukrainian relations have had pitfalls as well.
Serbs, Montenegrins and Bulgarians are generally pro-Russian – younger ones in their twenties included. Unfortunately, there’s a Sorosian element that has also developed in Serbia, Montenegro and Bulgaria, as well as elsewhere.
UNSC 1244 calls for a return of Serb military personnel to Kosovo, while recognizing Kosovo as a part of Serbia. In terms of international law, Serbia is the recognized successor state to Yugoslavia as it relates to Kosovo.
In UNSC 1244, there’s a bit about “taking into account” the attempted Rambouillet diktat which calls for a referendum on Kosovo. “Taking into account” doesn’t mean accepting by default. Moreover, a referendum on Kosovo can hypothetically include all of Serbia.
Any recent Bulgarian films that you’d recommend?
No, they’re not. Especially not young people in Bulgaria.
Montenegrins as in political identitarian Montenegrins are anti-Russian incarnate, due to being an ideological mix of Titoist anti-Soviets and Euroatlantic NATO lapdogs.
Serbs and Serbs in Montenegro (28%) are “pro-Russian” and “Russophilic” (99% of cases) because the West bombed Serbs and has targeted us since 1990s – they hope that Russians will support Serbia, Srpska, and even die fighting against NATO for Serbian interests/Kosovo. In other words, Russia is the only/last power left whose interests align with Serb ones, after Serbs sucked up to France, UK, USA in the 20th century and disaster befell them – though not those who emigrated to the West and enjoy their silver coins.
Panslavism, Slavophilia is garbage and dangerous delusional nonsense like Eurasianism, or Yugoslavism for Serbs.
I don’t want to see any results when I search “Serb” in AK thread comments, but it might be beneficial if I took the time to dispell the fake “Russophile” hipocrisy and fake sympathies for Russia that vast majority here displays.
Those people are opportunistic scum and total cancer like their Titoist (great)grandparents, Euroatlantic/DOS/antiwar parents or themselves.
Or the obnoxious, unbearable diaspora living in historically hostile nations such as Germany, Austria, Italy, USA, UK and LARPing as patriots online.
Fortunately, some genuine, sincere Russophiles are part of the government now which had not been the case for 100+ years.
I’m speaking from personal experience so take this with some tasty salt
In Universities the Sorosian element noticably skews towards young women, while the Russophile Putin cult towards young men and boomers
Pseuds who think they’re geniuses after marathoning Vsauce and Kucksgesagt videos are 9 times out of 10 against Putin and are Amerophilic to an extremelly cringy level (like making excuses for why NATO bombed a maternity clinic level)
Though if you find a person who isn’t full of shit and has a reasonably good grasp of history and geopolitics they’re either lukewarm to mildly positive towards Russia and Putinism (they’re usually annoyed by the corruption)
I don’t think Zbig did a bad job when he was in power.
Destabilizing Afghanistan to draw the USSR into a quagmire was successful.
Hard to disagree with Zbig on that one.
Brutal honesty right here, the amount of Americanophilic people in this country is simply absurd
Cargo Cult cannot be defeated, in the future we will probably have a plague of autistic Sinophiles
M1 had excellent/unmatched turret CE protection, mediocre KE and rather bad hull (51 mm extreme slope glacis vulnerable to overmatch and top attack), weak lower front.
Soviet contemporaries had better KE but worse CE frontal protection, over a bit wider angle (70 vs 60 degrees) – Soviet HEAT rounds and ATGM were the main threat to NATO, NATO APFSDS for Soviet ones, especially after Kontakt RA was installed on Soviet tanks.
M1 however had better ballistic computer, situational awareness and mobility – because it was the perfect anti-tank design – whoever saw first, usually fired first and thanks to good armament and targetting system – also hit first – winning the engagement.
Cold War Soviet MBTs and Abrams/Leo2 are not designed for same role, have different ammo loadouts and are difficult to compare because the demands for an exploitation, offensive MBT and mobile counterattack tank hunter or hull-down sniper are different. Significantly smaller target profile is more important for advancing than NATO dug-in or flanking tanks – it also meant thicker protection due to smaller armoured surface and autoloader reduced the volume needed to be protected.
NATO had more resources and better projectile technology – the vaunted L7 105 mm is balistically weaker than Soviet D-10 100 mm – smaller propellant case, lower muzzle energy – but had fancier, better penetrators.
It was cheaper and more feasible for Soviets to switch to smoothbore 115 mm firing crappy steel penetrators (just a few per tank anyway – HEAT and HE dominate) than manufacture tungsten, DU, UHH steel penetrators – it did the job very well against contemporary NATO steel armour.
Really, original M1 Abrams and Leo2 designers knew what they were doing – WW2 armoured warfare study conclusions applied to the extreme (look up Arracourt) – modern versions gained as much as 40% more weight to make them “urban combat capable” and suitable COIN vehicles – not really tank duty.
It’s far from clear though whether the Afghan war really was that important for the breakdown of the Soviet Union. Roderic Braithwaite, former British ambassador to Russia and somewhat of a Russophile, claimed in his book Afgantsy: The Russians in Afghanistan that it played at most a negligible role compared to the Soviet Union’s deeper economic and political issues. He also argued that the Soviets weren’t really defeated there (they had wanted to get out of Afghanistan quite early, it just took a long time to bring about a viable exit strategy, but they did manage it in the end) and pointed out that their client regime only fell after the Soviet Union itself had dissolved…which might well compare favorably with NATO’s/America’s eventual record in that country.
iirc the issue was discussed here a few years ago, and AK also was of the opinion that the Afghan war didn’t matter much for the Soviet collapse.
So subsidizing a jihadi movement which would eventually turn against Western interests might not have been that smart an idea after all.
The claim that the Afghan war caused the dissolution of the Soviet empire is clearly absurd.
But it did draw Soviet resources into a quagmire and was beneficial from that point of view.
Western wounds from jihadism are entirely self-inflicted. There would be no Islamist terrorism in the West without the presence of Mohammedans here in the first place.
That’s true, but before 9/11 Al-Qaida also attacked US interests abroad (embassy bombings, USS Cole) which would have happened even in case of a less insane immigration policy.
It’s of course a bit pointless to fault Brzezinski for what happened in 1979, it was a very different world. Much harder to understand and justify is that Western governments have de facto continued to aid jihadi movements in places like Libya and Syria in recent years, without any really compelling reason to do so.
Here’s bin Laden’s declaration of war: https://is.muni.cz/el/1423/jaro2010/MVZ203/OBL___AQ__Fatwa_1996.pdf
Casus belli was presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia and ofc Israel. Both bad American foreign policy choices contrary to our interests to begin with.
Of course it’s fair to state that interventionist foreign policy choices have unintended consequences which might be unpleasant.
Nope.
There’s only one good thing that has come out in the last couple of decades, and it was a TV series, not a movie – it’s called “Undercover”. Had some modest success abroad too, I believe.
It went stale the last couple of seasons so can’t recommend it wholeheartedly, but it’s the only modern local production that I have really enjoyed, for a time at least.
So you appreciate the man for helping to bring down the Soviet Union, but you mock the man for his steadfast support of an independent and free Ukraine? I can see why some here think that you’re some sort of a “geo-political expert” (talking out of both sides of your mouth). 🙂
I can’t wait to see the square off when our own resident “Independent Foreign Policy Analyst” Mike Averko lays into you for applauding Brzesinski’s moves against Mother Russia, oops, I meant the Soviet Union. And I was just beginning to think that blogging was a boring activity…
Support of Cold War anticommunism doesn’t mean one needs to oppose the modern Russian Federation.
George Kennan, Paul Nitze, Henry Kissinger, Richard Nixon, and Pat Buchanan all cautioned against encroaching on Russia’s sphere of influence. George Bush gave the (in)famous Chicken Kiev speech.
Here is the final op-ed that President Nixon wrote, which dealt with the subject of Russia: https://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/25/opinion/moscow-march-94-chaos-and-hope.html
Note that Nixon opened with:
You will of course be pleased to note that Nixon supported Ukrainian independence, but he also noted that Russia has vital and legitimate interests in what they call their “Near Abroad”.
With respect to Zbig in particular I would suggest that on this topic he had a conflict of interest owing to his ethnic and personal background which ruled out dispassionate analysis.
I strongly suspect that it used to be around 6 for blacks. Without the massive influx of European immigrants the black population would have increased from 16% in 1850 to at least 40% by now.
Yankee-made Reconstruction was very generous to Southern Blacks.
In the long run the Italians (and to a lesser extent Irish) worked out fine. America would have been in trouble if it hadn’t cut off immigration around 1920 – if the flood had continued it might have become another quasi-peasant-Italian Argentina (not a bad place, good food, but corrupt and incompetent government, and very poor relative to the USA). But the immigration moratorium rather successfully Americanized the Ellis Island immigrants.
As are Catholic people like Pat Buchanan and Steve Bannon.
It’s more complicated.
English-Americans:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/English2000.png
US election results, by county:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/2016_Presidential_Election_by_County.svg/1920px-2016_Presidential_Election_by_County.svg.png
So Mormons are heavily English, and Republican (albeit, open-borders Republicans).
But New England, Seattle, parts of the northern CA coast – are Democratic.
Northern Maine is where poor Catholic French people live – it voted Republican. But WASPy southern Maine, where the Bushes have their estate – voted for Clinton.
WASP Republicans were liberal “country club” Republicans who stopped voting Republican after the elder Bush left office. Their ancestors were the zealous Abolitionists who crushed the South.
Vermont is heavily English and heavily Democratic.
Black TFR was indeed higher than white and this was observed with dismay by both American and European observers. Actually de Tocqueville remarks on this (which was when blacks were mostly enslaved) with alarm.
That said I’m skeptical of the 40% figure. That’s only plausible if the Ellis Island immigrants had no depressive effect on the fertility of the native stock, which is unlikely.
Indeed, but was abandoned and in the 1890s there was a great reconciliation between North and South. Most Northerners came to feel Reconstruction had been a mistake and that the South had been wronged. By the 1920s the black population in both North and South was under the greatest legal restrictions since the antebellum period, when it should be remembered that many states in the lower North barred free blacks from the state. Several state constitutions, Indiana and Oregon off the top of my head, barred blacks from the state.
In the absence of Jewish immigration, Boasian anthropologists would not have diffused throughout the American university system and undermined racial science. Instead the anthropology of Carlton Coon would’ve been predominant. WASPs would also have kept control of the press, including emerging electronic media which was invented by WASPs and then seized by ruthless Jewish businessmen.
And as I noted earlier, in a hypothetical scenario in which non-Protestant Europeans had been kept out, or simply all immigrants, there’s no reason one couldn’t also have a hypothetical in which the black population was more appropriately dealt with. The Know-Nothings were certainly not friendly to blacks either, and the second Ku Klux Klan had a large following in the North.
This is broadly true, but in addition to Italian organized crime the pervasive Irish corruption of politics shouldn’t be ignored. Illinois is a great example of what went wrong.
States that received relatively fewer Irish immigrants didn’t develop cultures of pervasive political corruption. Wisconsin and Minnesota received masses of immigrants from Germany and Scandinavia who brought with them clean political and civic traditions that worked well with American ones, aside from some conflicts about socialism (and there were plenty of American socialists, such as Eugene Debs).
I’m not aware of any particular problems with Catholic immigrants from the Austro-Hungarian Empire other than that a Czech lobby may have influenced the foreign policy of Woodrow Wilson and Robert Lansing. I’m prepared to give that one a pass.
That said, this whole discussion started owing to the fact that Mr. Hack is in the tank for the Ukraine because of his ethnic loyalty to Ukrainians. But generally non-Jewish, non-WASP Americans in government service have taken their oaths to the Republic seriously and attempted not to unduly favor their homelands. If Mr. Hack were made Secretary of State he’d probably approach his office seriously and perhaps even phone Mikhail for some policy advice to balance his own views.
That data about people “claiming English ancestry” is somewhat meaningless though, iirc English/British ancestry is undercounted in recent US censuses, either because people emphasize other (more “exotic” and hip) parts of their ancestry or simply call themselves “American” without any hyphenation…the latter must be the case for much of the American South whose values for English ancestry look absurdly low otherwise.
Yes. Generally speaking it’s a very clever way for rich people to screw their poorer brothers in a way that allows them to feel good about themselves. So immigration – great, we’ve helped the poor third worlderers, AND we save money on lawn care and construction. Poor natives who now have lower salaries and who have to live with the newcomers (they can’t afford to live next to us) – too bad. They are racists.
High minimum wage – makes it less likely for people to hire dumb poor people, but more likely to hire your kid on a summer break from university (it’s funny that high minimum wage was first proposed by eugenicists, as a way of pricing inferior people out of work). Etc.
There are exceptions, however. Utah is prosperous and conservative. Galicia is (relative to other parts of Ukraine) more conservative and prosperous. The trick to to retain religion while becoming richer. New Englanders themselves were conservative religious fanatics, and also wealthy, civilized, educated and rich in the 18th and 19th centuries.
English ancestry ranked first in the 1980 Census, but had been overtaken by German and Irish by the 2000 Census.
Highly improbable that the population balance actually changed that much in twenty years.
https://www.businessinsider.com/largest-ethnic-groups-in-america-2013-8
This nugget is interesting:
Of these figures one would only count Kennedy and O’Brien as being Irish.
IIRC half of white Americans have roots in the country which predate independence, when the white population drawn almost completely from the British Isles and the Netherlands. There was a German minority in Pennsylvania as well as a tiny Swedish minority in the Delaware Valley.
Realistically 100 million white Americans have more British ancestry than any other ethnicity.
The state should mandate compulsory genetic and genealogical analysis for all people.
Maybe that explanation works for Mexicans in the US, but certainly not for “refugees” in Europe. It’s not like they’re doing any useful work (unless one’s the sort of person who likes to buy drugs from Africans in public parks).
The Comet was too late to see much service but it was one of the best tanks of the war and the precursor to the Centurion.
I suppose that mostly means Scots Irish Protestants though (e.g. Andrew Jackson). Kennedy is the obvious exception. Reagan had an Irish Catholic ancestor, but was also partly descended from British Protestants.
Don’t know where you’re getting this from.
Based on my numerous experiences, young Bulgarians with ties to the West (living in the latter for an extended period) are pro-Russian. Likewise, I know my share of Serbs who’re genuinely pro-Russian. I also know of other Serbs who’re sovok like.
Montenegrins over the course of time have been considered the most pro-Russian of non-Russians. From the 19th century, there was a saying among Montenegrins along the lines of 200,000 million Russians and us. Montenegro declared war on Japan when Port Arthur was attacked. It was only in this century that Montenegro made a formal peace with Japan.
The Montenegrin coat of arms has a close resemblance to the Russian variant in line with the aforementioned pro-Russian sentiments. Judging Montenegrin views of Russia on what the likes of Djukanovic now say is on par with believing that Poles were pro-Soviet because Poland was in the Warsaw Pact.
The USSR was arguably on its way down, regardless of Zbig’s Afghan advocacy and the Polish Pope at the time.
His Afghan advocacy helped pave the way for 911 Islamic terrorism. Likewise, his neocon/neolib support for the so-called Orange Revolution didn’t achieve what he suggested that it might.
Mearsheimer, Buchanan and Kissinger are better US foreign policy analytical choices.
https://theduran.com/ukrainian-autocephaly-and-local-churches-unity-above-all/
Excerpt –
Those English in the West are disproportionately Welsh. They aren’t all Mormons either. A lot of Montana cattle ranchers are of Welsh descent. Arguably their Hereford cattle too.
Ukrainian emigres as well as White Russians were anti-Soviet for obvious reasons.
Now you, of Ukrainian descent, have a special interest in this country and its conflict with Russia.
Do you seriously expect me or anyone else to believe that the blood that flows through your veins does not color your views?
But yes, supporting the cack-brained aspirations of other fools to pursue “freedom” and “democracy” is as American as apple pie and regrettably dates to the earliest days of the republic as demonstrated by the Citizen Genet Affair. This sort of idiocy leads one to suspect that the American Revolution itself was an error.
There can be cynical or self-interested reasons involved. But there is something more simple as well.
This will have predictable political effect in the contemporary context. Utopian liberal mentality and politics in places like Denmark, Norway, etc, is quite psychologically predictable from the fact they were born in so much comfort, safety and luxury.
Population from Denmark, Sweden or Norway, have never experienced – war, danger, or economic scarcity. Whole generations have been living in pure safety and luxury.
For such people, who have never experienced any societal discomfort, danger, war, famine, scarcity of resources, etc – a more utopian political attitude is almost inevitable, when the attitudes are averaged across the population.
Prices are surprisingly cheap in America, though, and I wonder that cheap labour supply from Latin America has something related to it.
For a country of such a high wealth level as America, I would expect Switzerland or Norwegian prices ($7 beer, etc).
It’s very poor, politically unstable, and some of the population have even recently been conscripted to war.
Religion itself adapts to new safety and comfort of the society, or the opposite – scarcity and violence (as during the Late Medieval and Early Modern epoch). Just look at how Christianity has become a form of liberalism this decade in Western Europe, while earlier centuries it had been the opposite.
For example, its generous and “nice” position in relation to immigration which includes many non-Christians/Muslims today (and compare its opposite position to competing groups, during a historical epoch of scarcity and violence – e.g. “St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre”) .
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blockquote>
“Church leaders say they face uphill battle against Europe’s anti-migrant sentiment”
https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/05/27/church-leaders-say-they-face-uphill-battle-against-europes-anti-migrant-sentiment/
The massive European immigration (there obviously was no more black immigration) resulted in the black population declining from 16% in 1850 to less than 10% by 1920. It then crept up to 13% after European immigration largely ended (mostly because of the incoming Hispanics, otherwise it would be significantly higher). Irish started coming in large numbers in the 1840s, in 1840 America was about 17% black.
This was because they had plenty of Ellis Island immigrants manning the factories.
Even if salaries were a lot higher, I doubt that there would be huge numbers of educated WASPS willing to work in factories and coal mines. So you would have more blacks, but still not enough, so less industrialization than in our world.
Correct.
True, but as you note they were socialists (and anti-Nativist). Sailer noted that generous welfare benefits drew a lot of Blacks into Wisconsin.
Wisconsin Socialists seem to have been mostly Germans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Party_of_Wisconsin
Minnesota Germans and Scandinavians invite Somalis into their state.
They were genrrally crime-free, other than when drinking, not particularly corrupt, hard-working, honest. But also pro-labor Union, except for Ukrainians (who gleefully worked as strike-breakers – I once read a newspaper article about them riding on horseback into striking crowds, like Cossacks). However they became “Reagan Democrats.”
If Cermak had lived Chicago might have been captured by a Czech rather Irish mafia.
Off topic, but what do you think of Denmark’s Social Democratic PM?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mette_Frederiksen#Political_positions
https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/mette-frederiksen.jpg
Frederiksen also became increasingly sceptical of liberal mass immigration as she believes it has had negative impacts for much of the population, a more pressing issue since at least 2001 after the 11 September attacks which intensified during the 2015 European migrant crisis. She has argued that perception of the Social Democrats adopting the Third Way and practicing centrist, neoliberal economics and supporting unrestricted globalisation contributed to the party’s poor electoral performance in the early 21st century. In a recent biography, Frederiksen stated: “For me, it is becoming increasingly clear that the price of unregulated globalisation, mass immigration and the free movement of labour is paid for by the lower classes”.[8][9]
Under Frederiksen, the Social Democrats voted in favor of a law allowing Danish authorities to confiscate money, jewellery and other valuable items from refugees crossing the border,[14] despite harsh condemnation from the United Nations Human Right Council[15] and widespread comparisons between the plan and the treatment of Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe.[16] Similarly, the Social Democrats voted for a law banning wearing of burqas and niqabs while abstaining during a vote on a law on mandatory handshakes irrespective of religious sentiment at citizenship ceremonies and on a plan to house criminal asylum seekers on an island used for researching contagious animal diseases. Frederiksen also backed the right-wing populist Danish People’s Party in their paradigm shift push to make repatriation rather than integration the goal of asylum policy. She has called for a cap on non-Western immigrants, expulsion of asylum seekers to a reception centre in North Africa and forced labour for immigrants in exchange for benefits. Labeling economic foreign policies of Europe as too liberal, Frederiksen has criticised other social democratic parties for losing their voters’ trust by failing to prevent globalisation chipping away at labour rights, increasing inequality and exposing them to uncontrolled immigration.[8]
Frederiksen has referred to Islam as a barrier to integration, arguing that some Muslims “do not respect the Danish judicial system”, that some Muslim women refuse to work for religious reasons and that Muslim girls are subject to “massive social control”.[17] In an interview with Kristeligt Dagblad, Frederiksen called for the “closure of all immigrant centres” and for the “resettlement of immigrants in North Africa”. These statements were strongly criticised by Morten Østergaard (secretary of the Danish Social Liberal Party – Radical Left) and Cristina Narbona (president of the Spanish Socialist Workers’ Party), who accused Frederiksen of xenophobia.
From whence my views originated offers no less nor more legitimacy to them than yours. If you think that your own views are somehow more unbiased and objective than anybody elses, formd within a vacuum somewhere, then you’re a bigger fool than I imagined.
Dmitry just linked to that story:
https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/05/27/church-leaders-say-they-face-uphill-battle-against-europes-anti-migrant-sentiment/
It’s a bit comical how you always refuse to even notice the massive open borders activism of the Catholic church (which globally is much more influential than any Lutherans).
As for Denmark, last thing I read was that the Social Democrats had already given up on their pre-election promises to restrict immigration/asylum, because predictably enough their left-wing coalition partners insisted on open borderism (maybe Thorfinnsson knows more details).
imo anybody who’s concerned about immigration in Europe today and doesn’t vote hard right is a fool, Social Democrats and Christian Democrats are responsible for the present situation, it’s futile to expect any change from them.
Sure – if all they know is nice, pleasant, honest and hardworking people they assume everyone n the world is like that.
Denmark is much more strict than is Sweden (see my other post). So there is something else involved.
Galicia is richer and more politically stable than other parts of Ukraine. It is also more religious.
Utah is richer and more stable than much of the USA – and also very conservative.
So religion is a necessary ingredient, to at least moderate other processes. I suspect Denmark is a little more religious than Sweden.
My priest recently had an anti-migrant speech during his sermon a few weeks ago.
Francis is foolish on this issue and some hierarchs are with him, but the priests and other hierarchs are not. AK posted poll results showing more religious people are also more anti-migrant.
(this will be my last post for an hour because of the stupid 3 post per hour rule that limits conversations).
First, it should be noted that in the antebellum republic the white population doubled every twenty years.
Second, it should be noted that the foreign-born share of the US population never exceeded one-sixth–though did remain at that level for decades.
Third, the largest single immigrant group after the Civil War were Germans, who are biologically and culturally close cousins of the English.
Ellis Island immigrants were an important source of labor for the vast corporations and industrial machine that the Americans conjured into existence, but never a majority.
The Haymarket Riot in immigrant-heavy Chicago is a good case study. The origins of the three labor leaders were German, American, and English.
The idea that all WASPs were educated elites is also a false one. In those days Catholic mill workers in New England referred to proletarian WASPs as “swamp Yankees”, who tilled the fields and competed with them in the mills. Many landless old stock Americans who found work in the eastern cities undesirable instead ventured west, carrying on the old pioneering spirit. This for a long time affected the character of California and other Western states.
As for German-American socialism, I don’t begrudge 19th century proletarians on either side of the Atlantic for supporting socialism. Industrialization was brutal, and no one at that time knew what socialism would lead to. Likewise their descendants supporting labor unions is simply natural material self-interest.
Somalis have arrived in America thanks to our defective immigration system and chain migration, and this problem can only be fixed in Washington. I happen live in a Republican voting area that has “refugees” from Southeast Asia who were never invited by the local population.
I agree with German_reader’s remarks on Frederiksen. That said, it’s noteworthy that she has been at least willing to campaign against multiculturalism. Danish politics has been moving more and more to the right on the migration issue for years. In this she represents a new direction for European social democrats, and she is unlikely to be the last. I also don’t think her campaigning was purely cynical and that with a different government she’d take a harder line.
In Western Europe at least it’s not just some hierarchs, but most of them (certainly true of Germany’s bishops – and before you come again with your “That’s a German problem, not a Catholic one”, there’s also a lot of agitation by the church in Italy against Salvini over the migration issue). Priests and laity in Catholic organizations are also very prominent in pro-migration activism, this isn’t merely an issue with out-of-touch top levels of the hierarchy.
Ironically the only Catholic prelate I’ve ever heard say something even remotely sensible about immigration is the African cardinal Sarah. But apart from that, it’s always completely uncompromising, limitless open borderism. There’s zero sense that Europeans have legitimate interests too and that there could ever be too much immigration. imo the church will eventually pay a heavy price for this idiotic utopianism.
LOL Difficult to know where to start – I have a nice weekend ,then comeback to find yet again from a trash as you yet another psychotic, million tonne , 27 hour posting of dumb , non-informed excrement on here by a moron as yourself …….after all the embarassing BS with fake videos, videos showing snowed in streets misrepresented as clean , we get this……………linking articles from 44 YEARS AGO about a project know as current and historical fact to have been extremely successful! Pitiful
What’s more disturbing is that I don’t think 44 year old articles ( almost certainly CIA stage-managed propaganda done during the time the US took Egyptian influence away from the USSR, in the years after the USSR backed the losing side in the Arab-Israeli war) from the NYT are readily available near the top on any google search – most probably you have spent another 5 hours looking for that crap, which would have probably meant you going through 400+ articles praising the Dam………to make matters worse, like the fantasist tramp you are…..you have certainly not even read the garbage link you have posted – how else to explain shamefully posting an article from 44 years ago, before even the full realisation of the project…..that looks even more inept given the subsequent history of the dam!
As for linking some ratings ( is “fascinating” the same as “best” ?) written on some site I have never heard of, by some bitch who I don’t know, almost all , except 3 Gorges, designed by NATO engineers…this is braindead, not least given that the dams built in Tajikistan, Gruzia and Russia were absolute high points in engineering you prick
I’m not a mackerel snapper, but I get the exact same impression from the American bishops.
In their case they at least have the cynical, self-interested motive of filling their pews with hispanic papists.
Not sure what exactly the dioceses in Europe have to gain from Mohammedans moving in. Churches in France have been burning for some time now.
imo a large factor is that it makes them feel relevant again. The Christian narrative isn’t really persuasive anymore to a lot of people in modern societies. By trying to spearhead the movement for open borders and mass migration they can feel they’re leading some glorious movement to bring the human family together with Christian love, or something. Makes them feel important.
And much of the open borders movement has strong quasi-religious currents anyway (“We” have to atone for our sins, because the 3rd world suffers so much because of us and our excessive consumption…the priests will lead us the way to redemption!). A lot of Christians also seem to get off on shaming and ostracizing “racists” and xenophobes…persecuting pagans and heretics has always been a Christian virtue after all.
Maybe there’s also an unspoken desire to punish Westerners for secularism.
Financial considerations might also play a role. In Germany the churches are big in the refugee business, must be quite profitable. I suppose it might be similar in some European countries at least.
Because you are a fool who doesn’t know how google works. That’s what anyone would expect from a Sovok “engineer.”
You keep proving yourself over and over again.
Google “dam aswan problems” and it’s on the first page. Takes 15 seconds.
Thanks for confessing that it would take a Sovok “engineer” 5 hours to find it. 🙂
So, that’s exactly my point. UNSC 1244 is practically worthless as it has been directly violated since at least from 2008, if not from 1999 to present day. Military presence or occupation over land is what truly matters.
Even then, as far as the Serbian Army is concerned, UNSC 1244, only states that a:
“Complete verifiable phased withdrawal from Kosovo of all military, police and paramilitary forces according to a rapid timetable, with which the deployment of the international security presence in Kosovo will be synchronized”
Also:
“Allow for the return of an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel to maintain a presence at Serbian Patrimonial sites and key border crossings”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1244#Summary
So there you have it, an absolute return of the Serbian Army to Kosovo is not allowed by UNSC 1244. At best, it only serves as a De Jure legitimization for a limited return of the Serbian Army to Kosovo, nothing more.
Not quite, but close. Large-scale non-English, non-German immigration seems to have begun in the 1840s, before the Civil War (Irish potato famine was in the mid 1840s).
Yes, but this number is compounded when you include the many US-born children these (European) immigrants had. So between 1836 and 1914, over 30 million people came from Europe. How many kids were born to each family? 4? 5? I’ve known a few Irish and Italian old people who had 7 or 8 siblings. So the demographic impact was enormous.
Do you know what percentage were Irish+ Italians+Poles and other Catholics (French Canadians, Czechs, etc.) ?
The Germans who came were largely leftist refugees. They brought order, hard work and honesty but also progressive anti-nativist politics (as in modern northern Europe, after their enemies back home were defeated and discredited)
I suspect they were at least half, but could be wrong. And they bred more, so their demographic impact was greater than their initial number. Planned Parenthood was created by Anglos trying to limit the booming Italian population.
If 15 million of the 30 million 1836-1914 immigrants were the ones you don’t like, there would probably be around 80 million fewer white people in America today, taking into account family sizes.
Correct, but not many were willing to work in factories – farmers (even poor ones) preferred to farm with more land available further West, then go into factories and mines. Mills were mostly full of Irish and French Canadians. Lack of Irish/Italian/Eastern European labor would have meant more blacks sent north, and industrialization that would be more limited than it was, due to insufficient labor.
Their modern descendants seem to be as liberal as those left behind in their homeland.
I agree. I don’t begrudge them either. Nor do I begrudge Guatemalans seeking better life in America. Doesn’t mean these processes are necessarily good for the country.
Correct, but Lutherans were very supportive of this process.
Actually Chicago’s epic corruption preceded the Irish:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hale_Thompson
William Hale Thompson (May 14, 1869 – March 19, 1944) was an American politician who served as mayor of Chicago from 1915 to 1923 and again from 1927 to 1931. Known as “Big Bill”,[3] he is the most recent Republican to have served as mayor of Chicago. Historians rank him among the most unethical mayors in American history, mainly for his open alliance with Al Capone.[4] However, others recognize the effectiveness of his political methods and publicity-oriented campaigning, acknowledging him as a “Political Chameleon” and an effective political machine.[5] TIME magazine said in 1931, “chief credit for creating 20th Century Politics Chicago Style” should go to William Thompson.
On Denmark and the social democrats, it is true that only the hard right makes a case for immigration restriction in a strong sense but immigration of asylum seekers into Denmark is quite low now and voters have short memories. I re-iterate my call for a non-retarded right which can combine issues of environmentalism with immigration, which would broaden their appeal even in times when the immediate pressure is low(er). These concerns are in fact related and many conservationists in the US, for example, were also immigration hardliners. Madison Grant was one. Many of the national parks were initiated by men with such views.
In Sweden, the big two “dam bursting” events were both initiated by nominally right-wing parties. In the early 1990s under Carl Bildt and in the early 2010s under Reinfeldt. The latter even explicitly stated it was to punish SD voters as he dramatically loosened up the asylum rules in 2011. That Sweden got the biggest share of asylum seekers per capita in 2015 was not a coincidence. The trend had been rising for years up until then. Of course, this doesn’t invalidate the hard right’s position on immigration. But I am throwing it out there to show that the biggest danger has historically been from center-right parties, at least here, even if both are crap.
In Czechia, the social democrats have often been quite hesistant to opening up the labour market to foreigners due to pressure on wages. It is business interests which are screaming for more cheap labour. SJW politics in Czechia is still quite limited, despite a lot of surface liberalism. They just passed a new foreigner law over the past few days which opened up to skilled migration but at the same time introduced new restrictions on low-skill labour from non-EU countries, and the social democrats had a strong hand in that. Babis, being under pressure from multiple investigations, didn’t play hardball but he has made his preference known in the past for loosening up (low-skill) work migration even as he cracks down on refugees.
Bringing it back to environmentalism, in Steve Sailer’s latest post on African demographics, he throws in some token black environmentalist who is now warning about the danger of linking the two issues (immigration + environmentalism) together. More intelligent opponents, like Peter Beinart, have also warned of the same combination lately. This is unsurprising, because Western history is filled with these examples and it is a natural fit. It makes no sense to preserve the environment and being in favour of unlimited immigration. Furthermore, controlling world population growth as well as improving the quality (eugenics) would also be a natural fit. There is a palpable fear that you can almost feel from these pundits because they realise that if the right-wing stopped being so retarded, there is a rich legacy here to tap into. More importantly, there is an internal logic that binds it all together in a way that unrestricted neoliberalism cannot easily provide, which is why they rely on overcharged SJW rhetoric to hide that fact.
Agree.
With the exception of a few emigrants who genuinely are scum like Rade Sherbegija, how are the majority of Serbs who emigrated to the West enjoying their silver coins when they are working depressing 9-5 jobs, deep in debt, surrounded by materialism, degeneracy, globohomo, multiculti and other nihilist garbage?
Agree. Although Euro-Atlanticist worshiping is also dangerous and undesirable. The basic framework for whether someone can seriously be considered to be a “real” Serb should be a rejection of any and all forms of Yugoslavism (Yugo-Communism, Yugo-Monarchism or in any other form) and a rejection of any form of Euro-Atlanticism, most especially Euro-Atlanticist integration into the EU and NATO. There’s no need to be so harsh and rip apart Serbs who agree with these two fundamental premises.
Especially if they are serious about these fundamentals but happen to have slight differences of opinion on other lesser and secondary details such as history or other things, like you did a few threads ago to me when you accused me of “Yugoslav Karadjordjevic Freemason bullshit”. Besides these 2 basic postulates, which come from a fundamental belief and commitment in Serb ethno-national interests first, and then everything else, surely there should be space for some negotiation about the smaller details as long as its all considered under the framework of strictly always placing Serb ethno-national interests first?
Are you indirectly accusing me of this? Where is the fake “Russophile” hypocrisy or “fake sympathy” for Russia here? It’s not like Russians are retards who don’t know what Serbian interests are, or that Russians have absolutely nothing to gain from supporting Serb interests and that Serbs are taking advantage of and milking Russians. Plus, right now, there are a bunch of Serbs who take Russophilia very seriously, such as those fighting in East Ukraine. For all the flaws, problems and dysfunctions with Serbia and Serbs as a people, there’s no need to have such an inferiority complex about your own people to feel desperate enough to want to distance yourself from them and deny any connection to them.
Well, it’s definitely true that their ancestors would’ve been scum or unintentionally contributing to evil on some level (not everyone who happened to support those things or was a part of those systems was enthusiastically in it because some genuinely were either tricked or confused by it all). Still, if they permanently decide to abandon those ways by sincerely and genuinely believing and acting in accordance to the 2 postulates of Serb ethno-national interests first above all, do those people really need to be ripped apart? Of course, if they still support and act on Yugoslavism and Euro-Atlanticism, then they do deserve to be ripped apart without restrain.
Are you suggesting that Serbs who simply emigrate from Serbia or are born to emigrants are not real Serbs, and are instead worthless traitor scum? It’s true that some emigrants really are exactly what you say, and that others will simply assimilate themselves into their place of emigration. If they assimilate themselves into their host country, then this becomes a non-issue and those people are permanently lost anyway. Still, this is an obnoxious and unbearable attitude to hold about your whole diaspora. Completely rejecting your diaspora and even insulting them as a whole is absurd and irrational.
Since you have such contempt for the Serbian diaspora, what do you think would happen if the Serbian diaspora completely and totally stopped giving even a single coin it earned from abroad into Serbia? You clearly know that there would be a state of crisis in Serbia where tens and hundreds of thousands of people, maybe even millions, would not be able to afford food or pay their bills. Of course, this is already unfortunately the case in Serbia for some people, but things would be much worse than they are right now.
Think about it, what would happen if the 3 million Armenians who lived in Armenia told their diaspora that they were worthless traitor scum and that they should get lost? Armenia depends on its diaspora as much as the diaspora depends on Armenia, if not more so Armenia from its diaspora.
As much as all those countries that are common places of emigration for Serbs have been or are still currently hostile to Serbia, what are the Serbs who emigrate there supposed to do? Even though most are emigrating for economics reasons, are they supposed to go somewhere else where there isn’t any wealth to be gained? Are they not supposed to emigrate at all to begin with? As great as it would be that all Serbs could move back to Serbia or other Serb lands and permanently stay there, you know as well as I do that if the EU immediately granted work visas to everybody in Serbia, that at least 1 million people would quickly emigrate in search of jobs and money.
Plus, there is a number of Serbs that actually emigrate to Russia and China to earn wealth. Of course, their numbers are not as large as the others who emigrate to the West, but their numbers may well increase given the direction things are going in the world, especially to wealth in China.
Still then, what about people who returned from the diaspora or emigration and actively did something good for Serbia or Serbs in the Balkans? Say what about Captain Dragan Vasiljkovic? I assume you know of him? The man is to this day rotting in a Croat prison for his service and contribution to the struggle of Krajina Serbs from 1991-1995 which he voluntarily gave even though he spent most of his life in Australia. Knowing what some of your opinions and attitudes are, don’t tell me I’ve missed some details and that Dragan Vasiljkovic is also somehow some sort of scum?
Also, lets look back at Serbian history. What about the 2 Great Serbian Migrations in the 1690’s and 1730’s/1740’s? Or every Serb emigrant from Serbia in general since the beginning of the Ottoman conquest of Serbia in the 14th century? Is everyone who in those times fled or left Turkish occupation, terror and reprisal worthless traitor scum because they emigrated? Should all the Serbs who lived under Ottoman rule when their compatriots came from abroad to help liberate them from the Turks (As in Serbs who came from Austrian Empire, as yes, Vojvodina is Serbian), tell those returning home from abroad to get lost because they were worthless scum that decided to emigrate?
Seriously, what happened to CCCC (Samo sloga spasava Srbina – Only Unity Saves Serbs)? If Serbs were all genuinely united and not split and fractured apart into several places, both physical and ideological, we would absolutely dominate and wipe the floor with all the scum that neighbors us in the Balkans. But we are not, and there is our problem. In fact, this is probably the largest problem that Serbs have had throughout history and have right now above everything else.
BLOCKQUOTE Amerophilic to an extremeley cringe level (like making excuses for why NATO bombed a maternity clinic level). BLOCKQUOTE
Wtf? It does seem like some people buy into garbage peddled by the likes of Jelena Milic and Dark Trifunovic (pro NATO and EU scum). Probably the guy could be getting paid for that and worked something out with some NGO or something. Idk.
Lol. What would be wrong with having a bunch of Sinophile autists?
Definitely better to have them than Amerophiles. That is, provided China and Chinese don’t seriously act against Serbian interests.
Is this the same Darko T?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Report_about_Case_Srebrenica
Circa 1990s-early 2000s, I knew a Serb activist in the US, who mentioned this guy as someone who just suddenly popped up as an expert.
I think he might’ve been at the Columbia University gathering where Dodik spoke. Back then anyway, the sleazy pro-Bosnian Muslim nationalist propagandists really had it in for this guy.
What exactly is his story? Has he flipped? Dunno much about him.
BLOCKHEAD
Seriously how retarded must you be to have troubles using the Unz comment system..
BLOCKHEAD
I was writing from my phone. I submitted my comment and then I tried to edit it to blockquote but for some reason that’s not possible on a phone …
I live here, travel there and interact daily.
Res, non verba? Bulgarians continually voted and vote for EU and NATO, acted against Russian interests since 1878.
Where is this pro-Russian attitude in practice?
LOL, no. It’s an act – they are loud, boastful and tribal. Comprising just 3.5% of Orthodox people in Yugoslavia in 1921, Montenegro gave us vast hordes of Communists, criminals, politicians and other assorted scum since then.
The people you write of are gone, long gone. In the post-1948 split between Yugoslavia and USSR, Montenegro had by far the largest share of convicted “Stalinists” – but those people were in reality pro-Soviet/Russian dissidents continuing the tradition of their Serb ancestors who welcomed White emigres and close relations of Serb Petrović dynasty with Russians.
The Montenegrins of today are explicitly NOT Serb, build their identity on anti-Serbian narratives and stances – this translates into being hardline anti-Russian, pro-EU, pro-NATO.
There are exactly 28% Serbs in Montenegro, and some of them are Titoists of the breed which can hardly be found anymore in Serbia, ergo anti-Russian, fake “neutral”/Unaligned bullshit.
18% Bosniaks, 7% Albanians and 40+% Montenegrins are not in any way pro-Russian, and it shows in the vote.
How can you claim with a straight face that Kosovo-recognizing, NATO member with the same party and people in charge for 3 decades is “pro-Russian”?
“here” = Serbia/Balkans, NOT Unz
I single out the specific type of diaspora Judas (red-yellow lineage) and you write an essay on my generalization.
In addition to taking it personally.
I was not calling out refugees from Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo for emigrating; nor was I calling out descendants of Royalists, dissidents and people who left during sanctions.
Stop taking things personally, cut the comment length, leave out Serb topics here at AK’s and ignore Vulgars and Crvati.
Bulgaria didn’t declare war on the USSR, nor sent troops fighting against it, because the king and prime minister told Hitler that it would lead to popular rebellion. Even though Bulgaria was not occupied by German troops, it had a genuine partisan movement fighting against the pro-Hitler government (which wasn’t pro-Hitler enough to attack the Soviets).
Other than that, whenever you have some comment thread on Facebook where pro- and anti-Russian sentiments are clashing, the pro-Russian commenters will very often be Bulgarians or Serbs. (I guess this is so on other comment threads, but on Facebook you can clearly see it with profile pictures and names of high schools.)
This is as far as sentiments are going to take you. For example Hungarians are very pro-Polish, but it didn’t stop us from being aligned with Hitler. However, even the far right press ran articles about how the “tragedy of Poland” was a cautionary tale not to choose the wrong (i.e. anti-Hitler) side in the war. In 1944 Hungarian troops gave weapons to the Polish AK underground, and when in August they were sent to fight the Warsaw uprising, they had to be removed from the frontline because they were useless. (They refused to fire at the Poles, gave them intel on German troop movements, and occasionally even shot at German troops.)
Whether a country is NATO member or not is not usually decided by the pro- or anti-Russian stance of the population, at least not in this corner of the world.
USSR is not Russia.
Real Bulgarian sentiment had shown itself from 1880 to 1918, and again in 1990s and 2000s – Bulgaria had offered to be the staging ground and logistics centre for proposed NATO ground invasion of Yugoslavia in 1999 (Britain insisted on it, USA declined) and then joined EU and NATO.
Would you be so kind and point me towards the purpose of Bulgarian EU and NATO membership, if not containment of Russia? Bulgaria is a shithole worse than Serbia, infrastructure and economy are a joke, Sofia is worse than Belgrade in every single way yet they were rapidly accepted – cui bono?
This is precisely the hypocritical and fake bullshit I am writing about.
Being supposedly pro-Russian while hurting Russian interests at every instance, electing anti-Russian political parties and supporting anti-Russian politicians and actions (South Stream, anyone?) might signal that there is no practical “Russophilia” to speak of.
No, those people want something from Russians, or want Russians to do something that would benefit them. Bulgarian Sovoks remember Cold War Bulgaria which was probably a parasite upon USSR.
The “historical Russophilia” of Montenegrins consisted of Russian Emperors sending yearly gold coin donations to them. The donation arriving late would raise an uproar, let alone not arriving due to emergencies and wars Russia had.
Dostoevsky described and prophetically predicted the whole Russia-Slav affair.
Unfortunately, he was even better in diagnosing the pathological Serbian elite, not unlike Archibald Reiss.
When the best description and diagnosis of your social and political ills is given by two foreigners, something is very wrong and lacking.
Even if the Balkan Russophilia was genuine (meaning schizo), Russians have no practical benefit stemming from it.
We’ve different experiences with Bulgarians. I’m pleased to see a considerable pro-Russian sentiment among younger Bulgarians living in the West.
The Congress of Berlin limited Bulgaria’s pro-Russian stance. That aspect didn’t eliminate the pro-Russian sentiment among the Bulgarian population which is there beyond a reasonable doubt. During WW II, Bulgaria declared war on the US, but not the USSR.
After the Russian Civil War, Yugoslavia and Bulgaria were good to White Russian refugees. I understand the Serb-Bulgarian historical differences.
The Bulgarian flag is patterned to honor Russia. Sofia has a high profile statue of Tsar Alexander III. Regarding Bulgaria’s current head of state:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/14/world/europe/pro-russia-candidate-appears-likely-to-win-bulgarian-presidency.html
https://www.euronews.com/2016/11/13/bulgarian-pm-borisov-to-resign-after-presidential-vote-defeat
https://www.rferl.org/a/bulgaria-president-radev-pro-russia/28114949.html
Montenegro has a sizeable non-Serb and non-Montenegrin population – mostly Albanians, Croats and Muslim Slavs. I don’t expect a pro-Russian orientation from that grouping. I’m aware of the sovok attitude among some Serbs and Montenegrins. It’s a problem with some Russians and yes some Ukrainians.
Still, Montenegro’s coat of arms and people like the Montenegrin based author of the below piece show that there’s a perspective more in line with my own:
https://theduran.com/ukrainian-autocephaly-and-local-churches-unity-above-all/
WTF
You don’t see the irony there? I guess it eludes you due to being an American “Russian”.
Bulgarian Orthodox Church proclaimed itself “mother church” to unrecognized Macedonian Orthodox Church which usurped Serb Orthodox Church monasteries and churches and imprisoned SOC clergy, banned them from entry.
The Montenegrin Metropolitan of Serb Orthodox Church is a very suspect figure, Vatican student and in my opinion, controlled opposition to Montenegrin government who ensures the rule of NATO government since late 1990s.
His rhetorical Serb bullshit is countered by his Ecumenist stances, opposition to Serb Patriarch, criticism of current Serbian goverment, support to Euroatlanticists and coup in 2000, departure to Crete meeting (rest of SOC boycotted out of solidarity with ROC) and cooperation with Ecumenical Patriarch and Vatican.
Visiting Bulgaria, I was surprised to see that Bulgarians supposedly built the St. Nevsky church in Sofia to commemorate 200 000 “Ukrainian, Belarusian, Russian, Romanian, Finnish, Moldavian, Bulgarian soldiers who died in 1877-1878 war against Ottomans for liberation of Bulgaria”.
The nerve of the ungrateful, backstabbing Balkanoid subhumans and their history retouching?
In non-retard talk……….Soviets achieved parity and for long periods of time ,supremacy, in the space and military fields despite being on a fraction of the budget of the west you idiot……..and amidst a massive reduction in the male population for 1941-45 also the civil/WW1
err-Britain you dumbf**K ( what engines do most Boeing planes use you idiot?)LOL
Or Ireland? Canada? South-East Asia? Airbus would hardly want to be involved with the useless Poland – but I see Boeing of all these places choose Russia ,you fake argument spreading imbecile
A fake statement , involving a fake and incompatible comparison ( pure scientists vs Engineers, that no non-moron is trying to make)
What a time to be alive!
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1163603361423351808
Correct……..and as you can see, as with the Sydney Opera house it is about how “white” the building looks that mostly affects how the aesthetics of the building are viewed…..even though the form, function and design are identical to numerous soviet “grey” concrete soviet building.
I’m sure when the engineer/architect of plenty of these Soviet concrete buildings designed them, then on his model of the project the buildings are all looking white on the model – perhaps this slightly distorted their views – but still the majority of it was genius work….and plenty of the big hotels in many Mediterranean resorts look Communist – but because of the sun, they still look less grey and therefore aesthetic
There was a tonne of art-deco inspired buildings and objects designed in the USSR in the 50s/60’s also.
BTW – on a separate issue, even though they are faithfully trying to recreate Gaudi’s vision for the church – I don’t like modern built sections of the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona – something not quite right for me………..but the older sections I do like
The age 20-35 Bulgarians I’m talking about were born and raised in Bulgaria. From their late teens they spend time in the West – education, jobs, living experience. Yet, they’re pro-Russian. Likewise with older Bulgarian born Bulgarians.
In 1978, I saw a National Geographic photo of the 100th anniversary of Bulgaria’s independence in Sofia. The statue of Alexander III was in a high profile area. There were also numerous Russian tri-color flags. Mind you this was in 1978.
Your above excerpted could’ve said something along the lines of the Ukrainian, Belarusian, Russian, Romanian, Finnish, Moldavian soldiers of the Russian Empire. Then again, I’m sure there were some Balts, Armenians and Georgians among that contingent.
Perhaps somewhat related to your last point, I was at a White Russian event which included a series of folk dances from the old country. There was no problem acknowledging the Ukrainian and Georgian themes. This from a cultural org which has this version of the two headed eagle featured in its main hall:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=sh9G1MA6&id=50A58F3742DAED50D419D49CBD377966ADD9BA3C&thid=OIP.sh9G1MA6tEcdR-9kXJWh0AHaI9&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fupload.wikimedia.org%2fwikipedia%2fcommons%2fthumb%2fa%2fae%2fLesser_Coat_of_Arms_of_Russian_Empire.svg%2f847px-Lesser_Coat_of_Arms_of_Russian_Empire.svg.png&exph=1024&expw=847&q=russian+empire+coat+of+arms&simid=608003502249936754&selectedIndex=2&ajaxhist=0
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2019/08/19/trump-wants-buy-greenland-but-its-not-for-sale/
In the west, there is much better pay after the Chartered Engineer status is reached – that is in essence like getting a qualification on the job, many years after University. Before you reach that stage the pay is quite mediocre. But even with that, pay isn’t indicative of the intellectual level required in one job
In Europe/UK whilst the state is still a big client or employer – there is plenty of private company work and mixed private/state funded projects….plus “state” related activity has completely different connotations in Europe than in the USA. France,Germany and Russia have numerous state-run industries and companies in sectors of the economy that the US never would
Civil Engineering involves a higher degree of mathematics than Electrical Engineering, a much broader scope of work than aeronautical engineering, a broader scope of mathematics/physics than mechanical Engineering ( although the difficulty of the mathematics is about the same in terms of manipulation of second order, third order, 4th-order etcetera differential equations because issues like dynamic effects are an issue in both)
As for the “easy” element – all I can say is that when somebody says to me about how hard it must be to design/build a bridge they have been on or a nuclear power plant – I often reply that it is easier than you think – just self-deprecating drivel, but also reflective that I am trying to dissuade these people from associating the weight/volume of a structure, from it’s difficulty to construct, because they always associate size with difficulty
White Protestants have always outnumbered white Catholics. So there was a major demographic impact, which is obvious enough by all the Catholic churches in America (and also Luthern churches), but no replacement outside of certain urban centers (e.g. Boston).
The ’48ers like Carl Schurz were “leftist” refugees. Most of the millions of Germans who came to America were simply seeking higher wages and/or to evade service in the Prussian Army, no different than the motives of other immigrants.
California being liberal is a recent development. It voted Republican in every Presidential election from 1948-1988 other than Goldwater’s crushing defeat in 1964. Orange County was one of the most conservative regions of the country, and California produced both Nixon and Reagan.
I’m nominally a member of the Lutheran Church and I can’t see much of a difference in the official attitude on refugees compared to the Catholic Church or any of the other mainline Protestant denominations. Most of the Evangelical denominations are bad as well (the Southern Baptist Convention under Moore has been appalling), though I’ve seen some good things from the Missouri Synod Lutherans.
As usual you continue talking out of your ass about things you have no idea about.
Nobody ever voted for NATO.
This also falsely implies that voting matters that much.
We were accepted in the EU during a BSP mandate, which is the former communist now reformed European socialist party.
South Stream was stopped during the Oresharski government belonging to the same party, whose voters are incidentally 100% Russophile.
There’s a good reason I filter you, should not have expanded your comments.
In your dreams, lol.
Democratic municipal corruption is regrettably an American invention and doesn’t stop with Bib Bill Hale. Boss Tweed was also of old stock. I think there was even an all-American political machine in early Denver, but know less about this.
But it was the Irish who perfected it and raised it to a high art. Illinois’ Irish Democrats are also of a special breed and somehow manage to continue to command the loyalty of hispanic and even black, unlike NY Irish Democrats (e.g. see AOC replacing an old Irish machine politician).
That said once the current generation of rascals like Madigan and Burke retire I think that will be the end of old-style Irish municipal machine corruption.
Another thing is that, literally , though I have nothing against jews , and certainly nothing against women – It’s a fact that civil Engineering is the most jew-free, woman-free and gay-extinct profession on the planet. Literally that is the case in the west and there is only slightly more jews and woman involved in it in Russia.
Maybe that influences the pay! Banking, Finance, electronics, Law have plenty of jews and women.But in civil engineering I’ve NEVER seen a gay or gay-mannered person employed, nor even a butch lesbo. Jews in the civil engineering projects in the west are non existent. Woman in Russian engineering – yes, but not big numbers.
You’ve just proven all of my claims, thank you.
Imagine if they weren’t “Russophile”!
Can anyone write a single example of this supposed Russophilia and pro-Russianess of Bulgarians since 1880?
Common war?
Common enemies?
Donations, assistance to Russia? Gestures? Russian interests fulfilled?
Actual benefits for Russians?
You filter me because you are an anime-watching shitskin who unironically believes that Bulgarians created Glagolitic, Cyrillic scripts and that Old Church Slavonic and written Old Slavonic were modelled after Old Bulgarian.
Even though Bulgarians conquered parts of Macedonia and Theme of Thessalonika in 836-852, were resisted by local Slavs allied with Roman Empire, and Bulgarians only accepted Christianity (and the lithurgical language and script that went with it) in 874/875, when Old Church Slavonic was already long codified and Glagolitic script utilized across Slavic lands in Europe.
Bulgarian historiography claims those same Slavs which arrived in late 6th, early 7th century in the Balkans, settled in Macedonia and Greece, founding Sklavinias over night became Bulgarians and spoke Bulgarian when they were conquered in second half of 9th and 10th century.
You too can’t use the comment system, like your fellow countryman TheTotallyAnonymous? There’s a reply button when you reply to someone.
Stop projecting, lol.
Russo-Turkish war of 1878
World War 2 – mobilized 450 000 men, 20 000 of which died. Not much compared to Russian casualties, but not a single man was sent against Russia while we were on the Axis side as our Tsar wanted only to preserve Bulgarian lives after the catastrophic 2nd Balkan War and 1st World War.
Last one I can think of is refusing to withdraw diplomats during the Skripal affair, which had the approval of 88% according to opinion polls.
From what you posted after that I see that your history knowledge rivals Ukrainian and Macedonian official history books though (the latter ones were written by Serbs after all), so yes, I will continue to filter you.
My parents left the RC church, and my wife and I left the church. Its avowed desire to destroy and irrevocably change my country, and all western and white countries, for the worse, was a major reason.
You ought to have something against both Jews and women (or rather female entryism into the male sphere).
Engineering might be judenrein in Russia, but it isn’t in America. They’re perhaps underrepresented in engineering relative to their cognitive ability, but there are plenty of them.
Pay in banking/finance is under compression, as the golden age (roughly 1975 – 2007) of finance is over. Pay in law collapsed a long time ago owing to the overproduction of lawyers and the business sector having figured out how to successfully limit extreme liability.
Women are of course are not really in engineering at all since they are fundamentally incompetent at it (and too boring to enjoy it), and so-called female engineers appear to spend most of their time working on codes of conduct and chairing taskforces to investigate why there aren’t more women in engineering.
FYI, he does not even speak Russian and has never been to Russia.
This is particularly poignant because many descendants of Whites still do speak Russian.
Big Bill was a Republican but otherwise I agree with your comment completely.
Anecdote: my dad once lived across the street from some Chicago mafia leader in one of the suburbs (a good neighbor, friendly, pleasant, let the neighbor kids use his indoor pool). Mayor Byrne was there about once a week.
Sure, but it seems that the ’48s played the role of community leaders. Germans volunteered for the Union en masse, and Germans were associated with Socialism and progressive politics.
WASPy New England was also (liberal) Republican once.
Orange County and SoCal were settled by Midwesterners (IIRC). Reagan was from Dixon, Illinois. Nixon was born in California but his father was from Ohio and his mother was from Indiana.
Yankees settled in the north and the coast.
Yes lol, its the same Darko Trifunovic. Here is a video where he is exposed publicly for being a Euro-Atlanticist shill who promotes the USA, EU, NATO and even shills for US Ambassador Warren Zimmerman, who pushed Alija Izetbegovic to fight Serbs in Bosnia and is responsible for starting the 1992-1995 Bosnian War.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VSMBvUFjU
This video (All in Serbian) is an interview Darko Trifunovic has with some other Serbian journalist (Miodrag Zivkovic) hosted by the Balkan Info channel (Best Serbian alternative media as they invite many based nationalist guests to freely talk for hours, but they also invite some random, useless and fringe weirdo guests at times). The whole video turns into a dispute and argument with Darko shilling for Euro-Atlanticism while Miodrag Zivkovic shills for Russia, and China to a lesser degree. Watch the video from 48:06 – 52:20 where their argument gets so hardcore and heated that Darko slams his hand on the table, then wants to quit while puffing to fight Miodrag so he doesn’t lose face, but then Darko calls Miodrag mentally retarded, and Miodrag wants to fight him and he would’ve attacked Darko, but the hosts of the interview intervene and Darko leaves but Miodrag stays. It’s pretty funny lol.
It’s possible Darko may have been a Serb nationalist in his younger days, but he’s clearly sold out by now, as evidenced by him spending an hour intensely shilling for Euro-Atlanticism. Miodrag made a video after where he further exposes Darko as a Euro-Atlanticist shill who literally bribed his way to a PhD as a pseudo-expert on “security studies” and gets money from Soros NGO’s, USA, EU and so on for his shilling. Anyway, the Serb youtube comments section in the video clearly see Darko for the Euro-Atlanticist shill he is, which is reflected in at least 90% of the comments.
They were associated with more than this. German voters were also associated with anti-imperialism (opposing the Spanish-American War) and with the gold standard. In 1896 German voters held their noses on the imperialism question and voted for McKinley over William Jennings Bryan and his Free Silver platform.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Germans1900.jpg
Indeed, but prewar liberal Republicanism was not the same thing as the current embarrassing ideals promoted by degenerated WASPs like William Weld. The Immigration Restriction League was for instance headquartered in Boston and run by Boston Brahmins. Genealogical societies were also very popular with pre-Silent Generation WASPs.
That said it is true that the Puritans of New England have been a continuous source of leftism, agitation, and social revolution from centuries. They’re very talented and energetic, but frequently wrong and dangerous.
Old Midwesterners weren’t Yankees in the narrow sense, but they were Anglos. Ohio produced eight US Presidents, all of them conservative Anglos.
Also worth pointing out that New England itself gave the country President Coolidge, a deeply conservative swamp Yankee.
The California Anglos initially gravitated towards populism and nativism to prevent domination of the state by the railroads and great land owners, then shifting to conservatism (especially in Southern California). Part of their populism was creating the California Jim Crowe laws and agitating, successfully, to end immigration from Asia.
The shift to liberalism is a very sad story and one which merits more investigation. Some of it was motivated simply by environmental conservation, but there is also general and widespread support for social revolution among coastal California whites (those remaining in the interior are deeply conservative).
That’s fair enough and understandable. You’re very harsh and relentless towards your own people, so I took personal offence at it since I didn’t understand who you were entirely referring to.
Well, I am a young guy born to emigrant parents because of sanctions in 1990’s (one parent’s family almost had to emigrate immediately post WW2 for being royalist dissidents). I’ve spent my early years of life in Serbia, but the rest in Australia. For me, Serb topics are the most interesting to contemplate, since they are the ones that I am curious to fully understand and immerse myself into.
Most of the other stuff on AK’s blog and English language places concerns lame boring things like multiculturalism, LGBTQ, feminism, Jews, cucks and so on. As someone who lives in the West, the whole globohomo package is really tiresome and tedious to observe once you understand the basics of it, despite those things shaping the fate of the world and impact Serbia’s fate as well. Of course, for you, it’s understandable that local Serb topics must be extremely tiresome and tedious to you, since in comparison to the world, most of it is village-tier bickering completely irrelevant to anything, until some war or major power balance change happens in the Balkans.
Paging Mr. Hack…
Don’t be so naive about Bulgarians and Montenegrins (the ones who don’t consider themselves Serbs) Mikhail. Epigon is being extremely harsh because that’s just the way he is, but he is right on this matter.
Up until the 2nd half of the 19th century, Montenegro was literally called Montenegro and the hills, since “Montenegro” translates to “Black mountain” in Serbian, so until Russia pressed Montenegro to change its name in the 1800’s, Montenegro was literally internationally called “Black Rock and Hills” as a “country”. It was effectively a 2nd ethnic Serb state just like Austria (minus subject peoples) was de facto a second ethnic German state despite being a formally different political entity. Up until the Yugoslavia from 1919, a Montenegrin always equaled to be a Serb, that is, a regional variation of Serbs from the Black Rock and Hills area. Yugoslavism, and especially Yugo-Communism plus current Euro-Atlanticism, has succeeded in separating the majority of them from their ethnic Serb identity into some astroturfed split from Serb national identity. Milo Djukanovic is literally mandating NATO state brainwashing on the population by removing any reference to Montenegro’s deep connection and bond to Serb history in education, and starting this year, by pushing to legalize the theft of ancient property from the Serbian Orthodox Church in Montegro. This is in order to intensely de-Serb the remaining Serbs in Montenegro (So around 250,000 people). Contemporary Montenegro is a fundamentally anti-Serb project, unlike its previous existence from pre-1914 in its whole history.
As much as Epigon is ripping into Balkan people for being selfish and disloyal subhumans towards Russia, Russia’s support of Montenegro’s independence from Serbia in 2006, and its trade relations with Slovenia and Croatia, are quite offensive and harmful to Serb interests. Of course, truthfully, Russia’s interests among Serbs in the Balkans beyond pan-Slavism are only of a commercial nature and geo-political nature. That is, Republika Srpska and Serbia serve as excellent foils and tripwires over Kosovo and Bosnia (especially Bosnia) that Russia can use against the USA, EU, NATO and Euro-Atlanticists. Russia can always hype Serbs in Republika Srpska to secede from the Bosnian Federation and start a mess whenever it likes if it suits Russia’s interests.
This comment chain has distilled quite neatly why the Balkans look the way they are. At least we have another spergchat in endgame OT threads beside Ukraine to fall back on. Variety is the spice of life.
It could be much funnier though, if there were also some Greater Albanian nationalists here.
But we shouldn’t be too arrogant, given Sweden’s and Germany’s pathological state.
Tito’s Law?
Or perhaps Franz Ferdinand’s Law?
Ukrainains irate as Sara Netanyahu throws bread on floor during Kiev welcome
They also talk about Holodomor, a man-made starvation event where Jewish USSR officials were deeply involved. Quite fittingly ironic given that Ukraine is now run by a Jewish PM and a Jewish President.
Typical cuck response from bibi. It is well known in Israel that she does what she wishes with him. She even ordered him to go outside the car during an argument when they were travelling – and he obliged.
This is what alpha female looks like. Sara has bullied her own presidential staff, including by racially taunting them (some of them were Mizrahi, her ancestral background is Eastern European Ashkenazi), and negatively comparing their service to that of the Elysee Palace. One of them even sued because he had to undergo therapy for depression. Can a woman get more based? In a just universe, she would rule Israel. Time to dump her hapless hubby. #SaraForIsrael
Does Mr. Hack also live in Australia?
Guiseppe Conte, the Italian PM, has just quit/resigned. Salvini’s gamble for an early vote to grab more power may backfire and we could get a SocDem/M5S left-wing coalition in place. With heavy emphasis on could as everything is fluid right now. TPTB certainly want Salvini out of the picture for as long as possible and prefer a more pliable “pro-European” government in place.
Things are choatic – even for Italian standards – right now. This was Italy’s 66th government since the end of WWII.
My experience is that the more Catholic “Catholics” are, the less time they spend shilling for open borders.
An example: https://summit.news/2019/08/19/cardinal-francis-arinze-europeans-must-stop-encouraging-the-migration-of-africans/
Francis confuses me because the groovy liberation-theology schtick he sometimes seems to espouse does not seem to have been his line while in Argentina: https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/pope-francis-and-the-dirty-war
It’s somewhat tiresome that AK’s blog is turning into a place that gets spammed with eternal Serb debates, when I started coming here for interesting news and statistics about Russia that I wouldn’t find elsewhere.
With that out of the way, I don’t get where this hate from the right for our Metropolitan Amfilohije comes from. Not everything he’s done has been perfect, but the stance against him goes well beyond well-intentioned criticism, bordering on visceral hatred. Consider this: the communists went hard against the church in Montenegro during and after the Second World War, murdering 182 priest out of a total number of around 200. They also murdered the then Mitropolitan Joanikije. In 1954, they sent his successor to prison after a show trial. In the 1970s, they demolished the chapel on Mt. Lovćen. On top of all this Montenegro is a society just emerging (or maybe not) out of tribalism. Montenegro is not Belgrade. The way Montenegro functions as society is not at all modern. The appearance of modernity is surface deep.
With that context, Metropolitan Amfilohije has presided over a revival of Orthodox Christianity in Montenegro, both in terms of people attending church as well as rebuilding and bringing back to life many monasteries that had laid in ruins, building the number of monks back up, building two new beautiful cathedrals (in Podgorica and Bar) as a very public symbol of the return of religion to public life. This will all echo for decades to come. He regularly makes harsh public statements against the government on pretty much every topic under the sun (Kosovo, LGBT and many others) – what else should he do to satisfy the ideological purity tests of some guys chilling in Belgrade? Is everything perfect? No. Given that the above context, plus the fact that the government in Montenegro hasn’t changed since 1945, and the fact of 75 years of violently repressive identity engineering, is it pretty impressive? Yes.
As I’m neither of Serbian background nor an Australian your analogy is a weak one. Really Thorfinnsson, is it my fault that you’re ashamed of your Swedish lineage and prefer that Sweden become some sort of province of a Greater Germany (Triunism German style?) 🙂
Better to remain on course and continue extolling the virtues of Minnesota. What other classical radio station allows its listeners a chance to win a Naxos 30 disc classical music extravaganza? Sign up now to win, and remember the green firs and the beautiful waterfalls of the magnificent North Shore:
https://www.classicalmpr.org/story/2019/08/16/daily-download-giveaway-1000th
Tbh a couple of Serbian posters, who don’t even constitute a majority of Serbian posters in this thread alone is not “the Balkans”.
I ignored their unprovoked attacks on my country for as long as I could and still did not reply to most of the bullshit. Anyway this is why it’s always a mistake to listen to Thorfinnsson how you should never filter. People who actually work don’t have that kind of free time.
As I said
but I guess I should correct it to “50% of Serbian posters”
https://i.imgur.com/lKvklWD.png
https://twitter.com/TwitterSafety/status/1163522653136834561
Western state media get the exceptions, however. I wonder if it is feasible for countries to ban all advertising on Twitter within their borders. I think the best response to Google, Twitter, Facebook doing the work of the Atlantic Council et. al is to demonetize them, rather than ban them.
Ignore is for cowards and that function should be removed from this site. In fact ignore, block, mute, etc. should be removed from the internet entirely by international treaty.
No one should be allowed to hide.
The only acceptable moderation is the removal of commercial spam, mass thread wrecking efforts (e.g. block posting gibberish), and doxing efforts. Removal of illegal content is also a regrettable necessity thanks to gay governments.
Hey Buddy, I recently was extolling the intelligence and acumen of the great Polish-American statesman Zbigniev Brzezinski…
You get no respect around here…
https://youtu.be/ZCVR_ajL_Eo
Some news from the markets:
Germany issuing a zero coupon 30 year bond: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-20/germany-to-test-haven-demand-as-ultra-long-bond-coupon-set-at-0
Trump’s trade war driving Chinese capital flight: https://www.ft.com/content/28c9bd82-c27a-11e9-a8e9-296ca66511c9?sharetype=blocked
WeWork IPO a fraudulent dog: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-20/wework-analyst-warns-ipo-filing-a-masterpiece-of-obfuscation
China either needs to fully open its capital account or prohibit private sector foreign currency borrowing. Domestic borrowers with a genuine need for Dollars can simply borrow directly from the PBoC.
But why?
Because it’s contrary to the purpose of the internet, which is the airing of dissident views and proliferation of antisocial aggression.
F@#$ the web 2.0 normienet that gives everyone the ability to hide.
Instead of hiding, people must learn how to retaliate.
From /r/Yurop
https://i.imgur.com/B9kkn1o.jpg
I guess Hungary’s shabbier areas are gypsies, but as I stated before: national demographics cannot be wished away. Turkey’s deep-red malaise is another reason why the EU’s promise of visa liberalisation is pure lunacy. Somewhat surprised by Lithuania’s poor showing.
Serbia is a positive outlier, IMO, doing better than most of Bulgaria, which isn’t what you’d expect looking at GDP per capita. Romania is very heterogenous, though likely for the same reasons as Hungary.
Full data over time + definition
And that is why I filter, because if you don’t reply to everything people like you might assume that it’s because you can’t or you have been “defeated” in the argument. Better to not reply at all.
In reality, internet arguments will always be “won” by whoever has more free time and is more butthurt, and that usually isn’t me.
One word: gypsies. It’s fully expected.
A positive comparison for Serbia that defies GDP (and cannot be explained by gypsies) would be that their roads are first world while ours are third world.
I mean, gypsies steal rails but they don’t steal asphalt yet.
Latvian President is now a scumbag who is Jewish and from Germany.
Ironic considering the Soviet Union would never have occured without the help of many Latvians, Jews and German intelligence, who sent over Lenin
I’ve heard comments like this before and it doesn’t make much sense to me. The roads in Serbia are passable, but in need of much improvement. You definitely notice a decline in quality entering from Hungary.
I don’t understand much about Bulgaria. Running a current account surplus and having a government debt to GDP ratio of 20%? In this situation of extremely low interest rates it would surely make sense to conduct a massive investment programme. Roads, railways, new hospitals, upgrades to all kinds of infrastructure, investment in STEM etc
Ignoring, by which I mean simply not responding, is acceptable. That’s what the mouse scroll wheel and page down keys are for (mobile peasants should of course be shot). It’s of course very useful for endless Balkanoid feuding.
An ignore feature which actually hides comments is contemptible and despicable.
We had hyperinflation in 1997 resulting in a currency board which is still in effect.
The general plan is to keep the debt to GDP as low as possible at least until we enter the Eurozone (it’s one of the criteria, financial stability and whatnot).
At the moment, the lev is pegged to the Еuro and has been for a long time, but we don’t have any of the benefits of actually being in the Eurozone – once we are actually there, we will have easier access to financing and investments, as well as lower interest rates and transaction costs. Supposedly.
I can’t speak for your private sector, but the yield on Bulgarian government bonds is extremely low:
https://tradingeconomics.com/bulgaria/government-bond-yield
Seems like you’re already getting some of the benefits of the Eurozone, while retaining flexibility.
It’s very old, but to me it was new.
In 1945 the Danes left hundreds of thousands of German civilians (mostly children) without medical care or nutrition, leading to the preventable deaths of tens of thousands. Probably more Germans were killed that way than Danes during the entire war.
https://m.spiegel.de/international/denmark-s-myths-shattered-a-legacy-of-dead-german-children-a-355772.html
I have nothing against the Danes, but it seems that some heavily collaborating nations really wanted to take revenge for their own (real or perceived) cowardice.
Even Greek 10 year bonds are only giving 2.1% yields.
I don’t think Denmark should be called “heavily collaborating” though, it’s not like there was widespread enthusiasm for Nazism there (apart from a few thousand Waffen-SS volunteers, but they were hardly representative), despite Danes being at the top of the racial hierarchy in Nazi ideology. Together with Bulgaria it’s even usually held up as a positive example for having saved its Jewish population.
They are trying to enter into the eurozone, which has very strict criteria. They actually pass the criteria easily, but the other countries don’t want them to join, which the bulgarians are bitching about. They are running very austere fiscal policies, which is largely depressing consumption habits and could explain some of this.
Well, is the proportion of gypsies in Bulgaria that much higher these days than in Serbia to warrant that? A lot of Gypsies from Bulgaria/Romania just immigrated to Western countries. There were never gypsies in any large numbers in Sweden (and the few we had, we sterilised during the 20th century). These days, they have returned, largely from Bulgaria/Romania. A lot of them here begging outside supermarkets and whatnot. Additionally, not all emigrants from EE countries get registered as such. Gypsies is often a catch-all excuse in the balkans. While they negatively affect the issue, I don’t think that explains Bulgaria’s poor showing to such an extent.
I have not visited either country so I can’t comment from 1st hand experience, but even if I accept the premise of what you are saying, that doesn’t necessarily disprove the map. Infratructure development comes from the EU. Portugal has excellent infrastructure yet it is far poorer than Italy, which has pretty shabby infrastructure.
Belgium is known for having crappy roads compared to the Netherlands yet gross wages are similar. I think you are simplifying matters a bit too much.
Of which we are a member and Serbia is not, yet their roads are far better..
It’s significantly higher than Romania too.
Gypsies migrate but so do ethnic Bulgarians. Migration is not a net positive for the ethnic balance, so what decides things is their birthrate that’s several times higher than ours.
Back in 2011 the education minister at the time said that 48% of first graders don’t have Bulgarian as mother tongue.
The population count in the same year (2011) had the percentage of people who declared themselves ethnic Bulgarians at 76.91%. And keep in mind how many of them are old people.
Bulgaria will soon be transformed into Bangladesh-on-the-Danube barring some miracle.
That only shows how deeply fucked up the bond market is. Greek bonds should not have such low yields sums in any rational universe. Here’s another clue on the same theme:
https://i.imgur.com/TH3g8tu.png
Keep in mind this is about investment-grade bonds. Wouldn’t be terribly surprised if US paper is soon the only game in town unless you want to fish in junk territory. It’s amazing what central banks can do.
Most certainly was there. Moreover, your professed linguistic fluency doesn’t prevent you from making idiotic comments on historical matters under discussion here and elsewhere.
Once again, I’m sure my Russian isn’t so horrid when compared to the likes of Dave Johnson, Alexander Mercouris, John Mearsheimer and a host of others.
Interesting. Thanks for the follow-up. So my Serb-American acquaintance was right.
As I’ve stated in my comments at this thread, I don’t fully rule out what you’ve followed up on. Notwithstanding, the situation isn’t so zero sum, going completely one way or the other as the counter examples exhibit.
On a people to people basis, there’s a good number thinking along my lines.
Well, they cooperated enough. That they were considered racially valuable meant that they could afford to do more than the Czechs, and they did, but honestly, it wasn’t like they didn’t do almost anything that the Germans needed until relatively late in the war.
You also have Turks.
The Gypsy problem is pretty horrible. In Hungary people used to talk about them a lot, but now it’s on the back burner for most people. When in fact it didn’t improve at all, just keeps getting worse.
I remain unconvinced by this line of argument in this discussion, for reasons I’ve already outlined. Nevertheless, we seem to disagree here and that’s fine.
If I am not mistaken, Bulgaria also has a sizable turkish minority (10%+). So it isn’t just gypsies. That reminded me of the recent news that Romania’s government was planning to import 500K pakistanis to plug a labour gap before they had to back away, temporarily, due to some level of outrage. Maybe some of these balkan countries will be just as flooded with third worlders as us except being much poorer in the future. Worst of both worlds.
The difference is that we still get a sizable cognitive elite, and work-related migration, particuarly from East Asia and India(engineers mostly), has increased very rapidly to Sweden in recent years. Would it be possible for Bulgaria or Romania et al to do the same? I have my doubts. East Asia is also getting a lot richer and most smart Indians want highly developed countries.
As for gypsies, the solution is obvious: mass sterilisation. We already tried that and it worked just fine for us, despite all the liberal bleating about it. They are essentially a primordial population unsuited for civilised life. But even sterilised they pose a long-term threat that only gradually fades. Better to give Russia a nominal fee and pack them somewhere in the far reaches of Siberia, after the sterilisation, where they are far from civilisation and can just wander around living off nature in peace until their final days are done. Fertility for the native population is trickier, but artifical wombs etc ought not to be so farfetched even in a 10-15 year timeframe. But these are fundamentally political problems. We have the tools already to solve many of our pressing challenges, but are not doing so because of political considerations. In practice, I expect china to pave the way for many of these and then the West will be forced to follow suit simply to catch up.
Just in the last few weeks alone:
http://chinaplus.cri.cn/news/china/9/20190820/336194.html <– first cloned cat
https://bioethics.com/archives/47692 <— monkey/human hybrid
This on the heel of human gene editing already being done and which invariably increase in China as they have none of our culture of caution in these matters. We will have no choice but to follow. I suspect we will see very large Flynn-IQ increases this century due to gene editing before AI takes over completely. So, in that sense, I am not a long-term immigration pessiment. More a short-term one. The bigger issue for me is not economics – I don't buy into theories of imminent collapse – but cultural matters. A super rich Sweden is not worth much if it isn't an expression of Swedish culture.
But what would have been the alternative? Shoot a few German soldiers in restaurants or on public transport like commies did in France, which would have had zero impact on the course of the war, but could have brought increased repression and reprisals?
I don’t like how the issue of collaboration is often treated nowadays. To be blunt, in its most extreme manifestation it strikes me as a manifestation of Jewish ethnocentrism, where the entire gentile world is guilty of the Holocaust and owes Jews an eternal debt; e.g. I recently read a piece by journalist Ron Rosenbaum where he wrote that the French – not the Vichy authorities, French antisemites etc., but the French as a collective – collaborated “happily” with the German occupiers. There’s a real collapse of any distinctions, everyone is more or less guilty, even through mere passivity. I don’t think one should reinforce those collective guilt theories by claiming even a country like Denmark (which was a model democracy before WW2 and didn’t have a strong fascist movement of its own) was guilty of “heavy collaboration”.
They are relatively tame, hard working, with birth rate around the replacement level, so for now they get ignored since compared to the much much larger gypsy problem, Turks seem like a non-issue.
Okay, maybe you have a point.
But the Danes are held up as an example precisely because they saved the Jews. But then it turns out that they could be quite a bit callous towards starving children.
My main problem is that not many Danes died in the war. It’s much easier to accept Russian, Polish, or Jewish crimes against German civilians, considering how much they suffered. But Danes were taking revenge for relatively minor injuries. Apparently more German children died that way than Danes during the entire war.
Denmark made a pragmatic decision to prevent bloodshed. This took a high degree of maturity and even moral courage.
In addition to preventing death and maiming by combat (which would’ve impacted civilians as well, especially in Zealand), it resulted in a gentle occupation in which the Danish government itself stayed in power and was even permitted to hold scheduled elections (minus the communists).
That said, the fact that they chose to immediately lay down their arms is also embarrassing and contributed to much shame.
I think the Magyar Miracle’s point is that this shame may have motivated Danish cruelty against German civilians.
Correction: I believe that Mickey actually went to Russia once, for no more than a week and spent the whole time watching hockey games in Moscow. Perhaps, he will correct me if I’m wrong?…
Difference between Art Deco in Miami and constructivist architecture in Ekaterinburg, is also more regular repainting and renovation of buildings in Miami.
Constructivism in Ekaterinburg is painted white as well, but these type of buildings require regular repainting to look good. And there is not the funding, or enough tourism, for this.
Also in Miami they use adequate lighting and decoration of the buildings.
https://www.wanderlustchloe.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/xMiami-8.jpg.pagespeed.ic.XIjYMU19Ar.jpg
https://pressfrom.info/upload/images/real/2019/05/21/inside-gloria-estefan-s-15-million-renovation-of-miami-s-cardozo-south-beach-hotel__480594_.jpg?content=1
https://cdn.fodors.com/ee/files/slideshows/8-The-Breakwater-Miami.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/535/31863394624_8bf0cd1cbe_b.jpg
https://www.bluffton.edu/homepages/facstaff/sullivanm/florida/miami/tudor/0008.jpg
And compare with our constructivism. In the end, it is a problem of lack of money for aesthetics in Ekaterinburg, in comparison to Miami.
https://i.imgur.com/91Uq3eI.jpg?2
Dynamo sports complex.now been a bit restored and it’s quite iconic.
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9305/51667439.5e2/0_114460_b6aa37ed_XL.jpg
I agree, but this is Art Nouveau, though. Melanf was posting about Art Nouveau, which he is a fan of. But Art Deco only refers from 1920s-30s.
Have you read the Gospels?
I have read them 3 times now, including this year (which I’m pretty sure is more than anyone here). I am sure most people here who claims to be Christian, doesn’t have the attention span to read the Gospels, as they usually sound like they have not read the text.
Text is clearly teaching things sharing with neighbours, welcoming everyone, turning another cheek, creating a communal society, etc.
Any attitude to illegal immigrants, you could objectively derive from this text, will be a liberal one, as the text directly supports feeding and welcoming strangers (and there is nothing contrary of that in the text, in its spirit – it’s all in support of helping such people).
It requires a lot of twisting and unsupported interpretation to derive a different or unfriendly to strangers message from this text (the Gospels, not the Old Testament).
It’s one good quarter of economic growth at least for Ukraine.
Individual quarters are mainly just noise – but perhaps Ukraine can have a good year?
Sure, but that was hardly exceptional in 1945, tbh you could make a similar argument about all the Western Europeans and the Americans as well whose outrage and hatred can’t be said to have been just a proportionate reaction to their own suffering. The French let their colonial savages loose in southwestern Germany under the pretext of Oradour (a unique event in France, not a common occurrence like in Belarus), but imo it was rather because of shame about their defeat in 1940.
I’m not a Christian and haven’t claimed to be one. imo the morality of a marginal 1st century sect whose members thought the end of the world was near can’t be a guiding line for running a modern state. People who think Europeans should embrace national suicide because of the sermon on the mount are criminal fools.
Well you should read the Gospels a couple of times, all together – if for nothing else, than your cultural knowledge.
You buy a version where it is compiled as a continuous text.
–
When I read the Gospels as a teenager, I even liked it.
Last time I read it (this year), I thought it seemed a bit low grade (it’s not exactly Shakespeare, Homer or Plato) and I found a lot of contradictions between texts. Still it’s necessary to read and remember general stories, if you want to understand a lot of art in the gallery even.
The American Revolution was a grave error. Under good governance there could have been a giant version of Canada with a Western border on the Mississippi.
Why do all revolutionary States from France to China feel obliged to export Revolution?
I’m not ignorant, I’ve read quite a bit of the Bible for work in my failed academic career. I probably should read all of it at some point, though I expect it will only reinforce my views.
Às an Engineering Scientist (a Doxbridge course), I would not say one form of engineering is easier than another. I finally ended up as a chartered electrical engineer with a tendency to laser optics but I did plenty of stress analysis along the way. A lot of work that used to be done by calculus from first principles is now with a computer model. In mymopinion this leads to a loss of understanding but does reduces the intellectual demands. The best paid discipline in the UK is and has been for decades, Chemical Engineering. It turns up in strange places like solid waste management because of the process control issues.
Civil work, as Gerard says, has a larger public sector element in it than most so there is more demand for the credentials of chartered status. The utility companies and defence contractors also tended to prefer chartered engineers thus supporting the other disciplines. Thus there is less pressure from Indian engineers, B.Sc, Calcutta (failed) than there is in the US. I needed a two year apprenticeship and three years responsible technical experience (which took me ten years to achieve) to qualify. After that there was a technical interview.
In Russia, the topic of the blog, I have not investigated the formation of an engineer. The firm’s I know well do seem to view internships and training as an obligation. It all gets logged in a person’s work record until recently a compulsory legal document. So perhaps certification wasn’t needed?
FFS Mr Hack/Elephant man…you know I like you and try to applaud you as much as possible – but your comments now are getting ridiculous
Your parents emigrated from Ukraine not because of any fake , BS “democracy” ideal, they hate democracy – but for reasons that were directly OPPOSITE to any “will of the people” reasoning…and to this day are viciously harming the people in “Ukraine”
Because they were despicable Nazi-OUN rats , Nazi’s, who were into making snuff movies…they had the major problem that in “Ukraine” due to the lack of availability of recording equipment they had to make do instead with painting those women and kids of all ages while they were raping and torturing them(now don’t get me wrong, these turncoat sadists were good, maybe above average painters – but it was very cumbersome way to go about such sadism and always a danger of being caught)…but in migrating to the USA courtesy of the CIA smuggling them out in shame but also in secret , recording these vile acts were made possible because the technology was more readily available and cheaper in the USA. It’s as simple as that
Your parents because they were from a vile, losing side of the war, fake culture ( and territory not even part of any fake “historical Ukraine)”…ingrained in their family deeply subhuman tendencies over many decades
What your parents value is the opposite of freedom – The “freedom” to appoint American “Ukrop”- family of 1940 nAZI emigre scumbags to be Ukrainian Health Minister….. let the crazy bitch fuck the country up even more catastrophicaly ….then piss-off back to the US to escape further corruption charges, just as a few other Washington appointments have done. They do this because they know, in a fair fight, Russianism wins in Ukraine – a noncontest.
the “freedom” to ban direct flights between Ukraine and Russia, even though by “magic” the PCU in Minsk and Warsaw has magically increased by about 4 million ( Warsaw to Moscow flights increased 50% after 2014) – I know alot of people, many old people having to make an abysmally long and stressful trip because of selfish imbecile like your parents, and it angers me.
Whereas in a real country, a real state and real culture like Russia the authorities banning flights to Gruzia, Turkey ( after shooting down Su-24), and the security-based banning of flights to Egypt were directly riding the crest of the wave that is the will of the Russian people and proven by the number people publicly supporting the government and not bothering with easily available indirect flights to Turkey or Gruzia ……..in a Nazi nutjob US/Canadian prostitute Authoritarian state like Ukraine the opposite is in view, thanks to the ‘ideals” of frauds like your parents. Making plane ( and train) journeys, prices, tickets harder or impossible, even though there is clear sky-high demand…….is the act of an American controlled authoritarian gutter state.
A country that can’t even get enough internal freedom to select a candidate to sing in the shitfest Eurovision Song Contest because they are all tied to Russia!
A country instigating anti-Russian language laws even though the vast majority of the population speaks it, and even though the son of the parasite President responsible for pushing throught these laws….can’t even speak fictitious “Ukrainian”…yep, that’s right…at the dinner table of this POS over the last 5 years everything with this clown must be being spoken in Russian………even though the father is banning it’s usuage all over the place! Even though his father has been against making Russian official language for about 2 decades, even though as is likely this son most likely even speaks English also, but not “Ukrainian” even though the last 5 years for a kid should have been easy!!!! This is a freakshow
And you are childless.
The collapse of the West in a nutshell.
When you abandoned Christianity you embraced national suicide. Everything else is details.
Actually that’s quite sensible amalgamation into a term ( assuming University of Durham as I have heard the term oxbridge but not doxbridge, until now). From what I have heard , University of Durham is every bit as prestigious in quality of undergraduates and teaching but just a few centuries younger!
For all it’s renowned name, I have never heard of “engineering” and “Oxford” in the same name……..so I’ll assume you went to Durham or Cambridge. Apologies if wrong !
Absolutely correct. I’m pretty sure that computer-based methods(Finite Element method) are what has allowed much of western civil engineering university departments to be flooded with Chinese lecturers and researchers or dubious engineering understanding. Probably it’s the basis of China’s great construction boom in the last 15 years…….the only way of knowing it it’s a success or if it’s a major lack of understanding is if their structures are still standing in 20-30 years time.
Though I could be wrong, from what I understand , Mechanical Engineering involves more ‘elastic state” analysis i.e classical engineering…in civil engineering elastic state knowledge is fundamental but the plastic state analysis ( and with it, these computer based methods that ride on it) take precedence on several aspects.
I don’t think you realize how the wages on lower end are the same. Unfortunately probably young Russians wouldn’t either. Once you count your expenses you have no disposable income. Of course you can succeed in the West but it’s not a cake walk as most people imagine. They would probably do better in their own Homeland.
Doxbridge does include Durham. It’s a!most entirely people from Durham or Northern socialists who use the term. I agree with you about Oxford. I turned down Oxford and Imperial to go to Durham. I didn’t have the grades for Cambridge. I sometimes think that I should have gone to Imperial. I’ve never worried about Oxford.
I did some early finite element analysis. In those days it was checked by calculation. My most complicated job was mechanical. A high pressure pipe that was specified outside the standard. The joint suffered plastic stress under test! As it was being installed in a power station in far away South Africa we couldn’t afford for it go wrong again. So I had the budget to use the latest stuff. And then there was the Nat West tower. Another place where elastic went plastic. …
I so agree about Chinese lecturers trained (not educated) in maths not having a clue about the underlying physics.
You don’t know anything about my life and you have no business making judgements of this kind.
And what’s your point anyway? If European birthrates were higher, it still wouldn’t matter, unless there’s a clear political will to reject mass immigration and turn back unwanted migrants – which is exactly what the Catholic church is trying to prevent.
“If everyone believed in God and followed the guidance of the Holy Church, everything would be fine”…lol. Total cop-out, you’re simply unwilling to face what a large part of your church is responsible for, that is open borders agitation of the most extreme kind, without any regard for the consequences.
AFAIK you stated this publicly here.
Higher European birthrates would mean no room for incoming migrants and indeed expansion of the European population to other regions, as had occurred when Europeans were still reproducing.
Correct.
Church is responsible for saving souls. A side effect of a nation full of religious people is that the nation is demographically healthy. Church isn’t responsible for keeping the degenerates’ playground nice. You have left the Church. It owes you nothing.
Church is, of course, not responsible for the actions of childless secular Europeans such as you who have abandoned it and the consequences of Europe being full of such people.
You turned your back on the Church, and naturally collapsed your civilization by doing so, then whine about the Church not doing what you want. Somehow in places where people have not abandoned the Church, it stands with them, some individual hierarchs notwithstanding.
The English and Anglo-Canadians were also like this once.
For some reason that I do not know, the Anglo peoples of the world, whether in the UK or America or Canada, have collectively decided to press the “self destruct” button in the late 20th century (Germans also). America would be very bad shape if consisted of 40% blacks, and rest being Anglos and German and Swedish Lutherans.
Ironically the defenders of traditional Anglo values seem to be assimilated Irish or Italians or others, such as Buchanan, Bannon, Scalia, etc. Commenter Twinkie (Korean Catholic) is a great example of this.
PPP is poor people’s parity. If you had two countries with the same GDPpc in PPP but one was 1/3rd in nominal terms, you would choose the other all the time ceteris paribus. That’s because higher nominal incomes gets you much more vacations, better cars, better computers, smartpones, bicycles etc. Everything that is trades internationally as goods and services.
If Russia liberalised its worker visa, people would indeed leave in large numbers and not just the poor. You underestimate the lure of materialism.
lmao
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1163961882945970176
Just wanna express thanks to you and others for elevating the debate here on architecture. I never thought about it deeply before, didn’t even know the names of the styles but I’ve learnt a lot following these comment chains. Hopefully architecture debates will become a regular feature on OT threads.
What do you even mean with “no room for incoming migrants”? That there wouldn’t be enough physical space for them???
As for “expansion of Europeans to other regions”…lol, are you mentally stuck in the 19th century? The colonial age is over, maybe you should think a bit about what you’re implying with this comment.
Translation: “If you don’t obey the church and the pope, they have zero obligation to even think about your interests, and they are fully justified in seeking to dismantle your nation and force endless streams of foreigners on you. It’s just punishment for your godlessness.”
Italy is still one of the most Catholic countries in Europe, yet its bishops are busy agitating for the importation of ever more Africans, completely disregarding the interests of Italians.
I could write more, but it would probably be pointless, you’re incapable of reasoned discussion anyway and will only resort to insults as is your usual modus operandi.
I don’t think it is worth it to relitigate the Second World War for Denmark. There seems to finally be a sort of maturity in the country, that is to say an indifference towards Germany.
And I am evidently not the only one who has noticed this phenomenon, as I saw in a bookstore in Copenhagen earlier this summer which remarked on the “puzzling” lack of interest Danes today have towards the nation which used to occupy such a large space, either negatively and positively, in Danes’ minds.
The German refugee children has also been covered in the Danish press:
https://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/samfund/7000-tyske-flygtningeboern-doede-i-danmark/5549831
Now if only people would stop aping Americans…
[For disclosure: I have a personal connection to it as my great-grand father was a partisan during the war and captured in German concentration camps for about a year before the war ended]
I forecast a global slowdown, but the potential that it could be something more dramatic remains.
http://moneymovesmarkets.com/journal/2019/8/19/global-money-trends-still-downbeat.html
Surprised how quickly gold hit 1500, hopefully now a healthy correction\consolidation before we make a run at 1600 by Christmas.
I don’t know why people don’t see having an alien ethnicity as your cognitive elite as more alarming. Sure ethnic Germans were benign in Eastern Europe, but realistically more peoples are at the Jewish end of the scale than the fair minded German end.
I noticed that even the small rural villages of Smaland now have their coloured residents. When I was younger both the SEK and DKK were 10 to the GBP. Today I can get SEK12 and 8.7DKK. Denmark looks a lot more healthy.
The Orsesund bridge seems another EU White elephant, not many paying the exorbitant EUR60 to cross it. Don’t know if it has to close in the winter, had the windows open on the journey back across and that was pretty fierce. The railway tunnel seems a good investment though.
If I remember correctly the Wehrmacht quickly surrendered to the British forces in Northern Germany ensuring the Red Army never got to Denmark. Unfortunately FDR and his chums enured a similar pattern didn’t repeat itself across the Western front.
The irony being the Nazis believed Jews had a collective responsibility for Bolshevism.
Probably all the satanic Gnostic imagery.
Very bad building.
You’d be wrong.
The only item made by Christ with his hands was a whip. Which he proceeded to immediately use.
Maybe try reading them again?
Illegal immigrants are not ‘strangers’, technically they’re invaders.
A great victory over racism.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-21/court-rules-display-of-south-africa-s-apartheid-flag-is-racist
Can you name any country with large numbers of children that is taking in large numbers of migrants?
Canada, Australia, USA sill take in immigrants. As does South America (I have cousins who moved to Argentina from Ukraine).
Your nation has chosen to dismantle yourself when it abandoned Christianity, as a consequence of which it stopped reproducing. It’s now a corpse. This is a tragedy, but the world moves on.
This is indeed bad. Somehow Church in Poland is not the same.
Of course, in Italy it looks like people are Catholic in name only – they don’t go to church:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/576085/weekly-church-attendance-in-italy/
When have I insulted you? I stated a fact that you wrote about yourself – that you do not have any children (when I read that thought – what a shame, for a decent intelligent guy not to leave heirs behind). And I stated that therefore you are part of Germany’s problem. This also is a fact.
The self-destruct button was pushed in the aftermath of WW2 in reaction to National Socialism and in competition with Communism. It did of course build on preexisting currents, and one can’t forget the malicious role of the Jews.
Self-destruction is not limited to Anglos or their close cousins, but naturally began in the imperial center and spreads outwards. We can see this in our discussions here of more “backward” countries like Poland. My brother lives in the Balkans and gives me reports of the encroaching poz in the area.
Countries, even entire civilizations, unfortunately go nuts sometimes. The Bolsheviks, the Taiping, Mazdak.
40% blacks, while not to be recommended for anyone, are fine if the whites have the right attitudes and government. The antebellum South, the old Caribbean, South Africa, and the European African colonies were all fine places.
Buchanan is a Catholic, but not recent to America. His ancestors fought in the Revolutionary and Civil Wars.
Steve Bannon is an alcoholic who needs to admit he has a problem before he can get better.
This kind of foggy thinking about money explains many 20th century British economic problems.
The project was agreed to prior to Sweden entering the European Union.
I really hope Trump just simply occupies and unilaterally annexes Greenland. That’d be super cool, and hopefully wouldn’t affect much the rest of us.
I like you too man, but you’re really some kind of a nutcase. Still playing the piano? If the engineering gig doesn’t work out consider getting an accordian and a monkey. 🙂
If you have bouts of depression, watch this and you’ll feel much better thinking about the good old days:
https://youtu.be/0yDrtNEr_5M
The above was a reply for Gerard 2.
Another fresh map off the presses from /r/Yurop. I am surprised by Ukraine’s comparatively low showing given AP’s strident rhetoric on religion and Christianity.
https://i.imgur.com/44Ec0nw.png
It’s in the top 10.
Where in the text is there anything about distinguishing between strangers and invaders.
For example, Luke 10:30-34 is about helping people across different nationalities.
What is the relation of Jesus being angry that people were selling oxen and changing money inside the temple of Jerusalem, instead of using it to worship god – to immigration?
Jesus is angry that they are selling oxen or changing money in a temple – and you are saying this is relevant to immigration?
In John, it is clearly referring to him using some ropes as a whip, not making some item, and it doesn’t say he never made anything with his hands.
Greek word is ποιέω – which also can mean form, prepare, fashion
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/2.htm
“n the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.”
Whip part is likely a later dramatic addition for the story as John is written at least 60 years after the events, but Matthew says nothing about this, although all other parts are consistent.
With the Greek:
https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/21-12.htm
I fear you are confusing the conversation with Thorfinnsson. I didn’t know what you were talking about by claiming I said Germans were different, but now I see what happened.
You wrote that line afterwards. As I said, you responded to German_Reader by claiming that without Ellis Islanders, Blacks would be 40% of the population. I responded to this saying the impact of the Ellis Islanders has been negative, you responded with the following:
“We know that Anglos and northern Europeans are the strongest proponents of multiculturalism and the most eager to extinguish themselves. Just look at the UK, Sweden, Canada, Germany, etc.
This trend in the USA would be worse if not for the Ellis Islanders and those who came after. It would just be like liberal New England and Minnesota everywhere.”
Nothing in there about the South. It was only after that in a post responding to Thorfinnsson that you decided to make mention of “Scotch-Irish in Appalachia and the other Southerners.” Since much of the South’s heritage is both Northern European and if anything is less made up of Ellis Islanders, your description of the U.S. is innaccurate. Without Ellis Islanders, the U.S. would not be just like “liberal New England and Minnesota everywhere.”
It’s a question of interpretation. People who knowingly and deliberately break the law in order to help themselves to material benefits produced by the people of the destination country are “strangers,” but so is a murderer breaking into your house. If Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin were alive, they’d be technically “strangers,” too. But did Jesus actually have these strangers in his mind, when talking about “strangers?” I think interpretation needs to be cooperative, i.e. a believer Christian shouldn’t be interpreting Jesus’ words like a hostile lawyer. (A hypothetical example: Jesus says that a mother loves her child. Then you come up with some psychopathic woman murdering her children, and then argue that “Jesus nowhere qualified his words that it’s invalid for psychopathic mothers; he just says mother, without qualifications.”)
I don’t think there’s a way to know the dates for religious people.
The method used was that they simply assumed that whenever Jesus says a prophecy in the Gospel, then that must’ve been written after the event predicted in the “prophecy” actually happened. So like Jesus predicting the destruction of the Temple must’ve been written a few years after the Roman legions actually destroyed it.
However, that’s assuming that the writers of the Gospel were lying (i.e. that they put things into Jesus’ mouth which he didn’t actually say) and that Jesus was incapable of foreseeing the future. Neither statement is likely to be accepted by an actual Christian believer.
So you cannot first make a number of atheistic assumptions and then use them to argue what the Bible must mean for an actual Christian believer.
This leaves us with your argument that the whip example was not very relevant. Perhaps, but it was merely an illustration that Christianity is not necessarily a hippie religion.
Like Jesus and the Pope, and all kinds of numerous saints, nuns and monks.
Where in the New Testament is there anything supporting the importance of having children?
Have you actually read New Testament?
The message of the text is rebelling against those kind of material concerns of the Ancient World. And according to, Luke 20:35-36, in time to come there will be no marriage even.
Have you read – Corinthians 7 and absorbed Paul’s message? It’s better to be unmarried, but if you have to you can.
New Testament states directly that the best is to be virgin and unmarried all your life.
Germany of recent decades has been very successful, until they decide to allow in illegal immigrants.
The problem is immigration policy. Everything else is details.
That’s the reason it is frustrating – because the actual problem for a country like Germany (unlike Ukraine) is quite a minor one. They just needed a strict border control.
How is it so? Hippies are angry about things like materialism, and people buying and selling things inside their temples or safe space
In this case, Jesus’s anger is exactly like a hippy, as he does not hurt anyone, but throws over a table (and according to John, uses chords and scatters coins).
And it’s the opposite of a normal hero in ancient texts, where real violence is common.
He behaves more like modern student protester who breaks up the lecture in their university campus, than a violent hero of an ancient text.
If the story is in Matthew without this addition about a whip, but it is in John.
Then it shows that the detail is irrelevant to moral message of the story, like the dove. The important parts are cross-referenced.
New Testament is very clear they are helping strangers across different nationalities.
Nothing about “breaking law, etc” – that kind of thinking and concerns just alien to the text, although I challenge you to read the book yourself (and you should read more than once).
Perhaps, if you were white and were able to somehow distance yourself from the cruelty and injustice of slavery. Yeah, the gool old days, when you could tear assunder a family unit and sell its separate members on the open market and fetch a good price…like chattel.
Germany has been economically successful, but success is lacking in other areas.
TFR has been below replacement in the federal republic for almost 50 years, yet nothing has been done about this problem.
The guest workers from Turkey and Yugoslavia, whose admission in the first place was an error, were never deported and enlarged their presence.
In foreign policy, the country has been a minnow that belies its fundamental power. When it took a more active role in European politics, that role was and is destructive.
Border control is in technical terms a minor one, but the spiritual weakness that created the crisis is profound and endangers the existence of Germany itself. Not only the German state, but Germans as a biological and cultural entity.
The past century has been fundamentally disastrous for Germany.
What makes you think so? Maybe God had a reason to have several versions written, and left some important points in only one version, so as to confuse the non-believers like you.
But invaders are not included in a cooperative interpretation of the text. It’s not a legal document, but a religious revelation.
I think that you’re being a bit too harsh on German Reader, and are being too obtuse in your views regarding the “demographic” attributes of Christianity. The church has taught that both the single and married lifestyles are acceptible, and that one shouldn’t feel superior to the other no matter which lifestyle one chooses. Even if German Reader is not (currently) a Christian, I think that this viewpoint extends to non Christian singles too. I’m at work, and don’t have a lot of time to expand on this topic, but found this information already printed, and thought that it included a good synopsis:
https://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/what-does-the-bible-say-about-singleness-and-celibacy
I’m white and so are you. Southerners, Caribbean planters, and Afrikaners are all white as well.
Slavery is not optimal, but your worshipping negroes and incorrectly assuming they deserve the same rights and treatment as civilized peoples is far worse.
And while I consider the question irrelevant, in fact the standard of living of black slaves in the antebellum South was greater than that of industrial workers in Europe at the time. Furthermore 90% of the output of Southern slaves was captured by the slaves themselves in the form of housing, food, clothing, and so forth.
It is true that living standards and mortality were far worse on the Caribbean plantations, as tropical sugar cultivation was exceptionally brutal. The inability of white workers to survive on such plantations was in fact the main reason for African slavery coming to dominate the New World plantations. Unfortunately this slavery system expanded beyond where is was required by climate, introducing the negroid pestilence to the American mainland where it has had such disastrous effects on our country.
Justice, incidentally, fundamentally means getting what you deserve. While it was arguably unjust to enslave Africans, it is definitely and certainly unjust to give them social and political equality (actually superiority in recent decades) with whites. This is not just my position, but was also at least publicly the position of Abraham Lincoln (Stephen Douglas doubted Lincoln’s sincerity).
Two different criticisms of US foreign policy establishment realists:
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2019/08/21/getting-real-with-the-us-foreign-policy-establishment-realists/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwn3hFFW3oM
I appreciate your perspective and learn from your comments. I’d like to hear more about your country’s current events and culture and viewpoints.
But on this topic, once you’re in the EU, you’ll have the “benefit” of effectively mandatory colonization of your country by hostile and incompatible aliens from Africa, the Middle East, Turkey, and Pakistan. Is that adequately offset by the ability o get loans at better interest rates?
Muslim-dominated Turkish/Arab “Germany” and Muslim-dominated African/Arab “France” will together continue to control and steer whatever is left of the EU 20 years from now. Why would you join?
Seems like european countries could sensibly have a defensive military alliance to deter Turkey, Russia or others from aggression, and perhaps an internal agreement on freer trade and easy NON-immigration visits to other member countries. But NOT this insane centralized nightmare that can dictate local spending and taxation policies and force member peoples to give up their culture, their political power, their property, and eventually their land and remaining liberty, to hostile or incompatible peoples. (Sounds like our federal gov here in the us, too, actually….)
Glad to hear that. But if the Turks keep reproducing at replacement rate and your native European people do not, the Turks will still constitute an increasing share of the population.
If that goes on even another twenty years, what percentage of the National population will be Turkish?
How will the Turks conduct themselves as they grow in numbers and political power? How they they behave as they realize they can use physical violence against the aged native european people without much repercussion?
All Eastern European countries should be paying Turks and gypsies to leave the country. Give them money to leave and never have the right to return to your soil.
Perhaps the gypsies can be resettled in Israel? I hear they are a very tolerant and welcoming country that’s not at all racially biased.
Bulgaria is in the EU already. The Eurozone is the union of countries that have chosen to share the Euro as a currency (legally all EU states, except for Denmark and the UK IIRC, are mandated to adopt the Euro when their finances are deemed sound, but this is de facto avoidable if the country wishes to). I am sorry, but this is very basic.
How have you occupied yourself on your visits to Russia? Actually curious, as Russia is on our short list of international destinations when finances and time permit.
For our family, multiple pro hockey games (in different cities) would be top priority, right up there with world-class ballet. Russians are just a little bit known for skill in those areas, you know.
We’d also want to enjoy symphonic and choir performances, visit churches, monuments and historical sites, and the beautiful Metro train stations, and also get to know the people.
We await advice from your Russia travel experience!
Ecxactly, AP may pretend that natalism is a Christian virtue, but imo that’s absurd. Monks and nuns were attributed the highest rung in the salvational hierarchy in the Middle ages, virginity was highly praised, and that’s basically still the Catholic position today. Having a family and wanting to continue one’s line are pagan (or Jewish and Islamic) values imo, much more so than genuinely Christian ones where it’s more of a compromise with the weak flesh.
I agree with you, people should read the New Testament, not just the gospels, but also Acts where the primitive church is described as a quasi-communist society with shared property.
You know Thorfy, lately you’ve actually started to instill within me a small inferiorty complex, that I’m somehow less of a good American tha you are because I shill for Ukraine while you do so for Russia –Nah! But now I’m beginning to think that I’m the better American than you are because I take to heart (and to mind) these often quoted words of the Declaration of Independence more seriously than it appears that you do:
And while it’s true that it took a while for our founding fathers and their progeny to finally figure it out that all men, including men of color are men, or would you believe otherwise?
I know you’re an American, but that’s no excuse this mix of ignorance and patronising arrogance. You can begin to diminish the former by reading this article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Turks
Sorry, I can’t help you. I’ve only been to Russia once and that was long time ago. Other participant of this blog coud probably help you though. AP, Karlin, Gerard 2, The Big Red Scarry…and probably others too.
Some things in the gospels are demonstrably untrue. Apart from the birth in Nazareth (which is plausible), all the stories about Jesus’ birth (flight to Egypt, the manger in Bethlehem, the census, Herodes murdering the children, Jesus’s descent from King David) are fiction to prove Jesus was the Messiah. Some of it is chronologically impossible, e.g. Herodes died years before the census (which wasn’t an empire-wide census, and also didn’t require people to travel to places where their remote ancestors had originated, the account of the gospels simply makes no sense here given what is known about the Roman empire). Which makes it all the more absurd that lots of progressive Christians use those stories as an argument for open borders activism (“Jesus was a refugee”).
The central mystery is of course the resurrection, and it’s impossible to know what happened there.
Fortunately for most of the first two centuries of the republic Thomas Jefferson’s bit of rhetorical Enlightenment flourish was not seriously entertained. The Constitution instead wisely opened:
The people of the United States thankfully did not include negroes (mostly enslaved, others not citizens) or Indians (not citizens until 1925). The early Americans were also fortunate that no one had yet come up with the demented idea that women are equal to men.
The idea that all men are created equal has been shown to be empirically false, and you can find no shortage of literature here on the Unz Review discussing this question. This lie needs to be buried once and for all.
If you truly believe that all men are created equal, you can save a fortune on housing by moving to Detroit, Baltimore, Birmingham, or the South Side of Chicago. 😉
Natalism is not theoretically a Christian virtue, but it follows from the rules. (People in general won’t become nuns, nor monks, nor priests, they will marry. And they will marry early, so as to be able to have sex. And since it’s a sin to have sex in “improper” ways, like with a condom, it’ll result in huge families. Also, because divorce is theoretically forbidden, the marriage will be stable, which is also conducive of both parents wanting to have many children – they won’t be thinking of divorce etc.) In a perverse way, having a very large family is a sign of following the rules to the letter. You surely didn’t use condoms, nor did you pull it out – these things are, you know, forbidden.
It’s a very atheistic argument for religion, one that’s found in David Sloan Wilson’s Darwin’s Cathedral. Being religious is good for you.
I agree with you that the Catholic Church in Western countries is pretty much part of the multi-kulti establishment (increasingly so in Hungary, there was a bishop, Miklós Beer, who constantly kept condemning Orbán for his treatment of the refugees, earning praise from the liberal press and media, fortunately he’s retiring now), but it’s in my opinion pretty questionable whether they correctly interpret the Bible. Especially if you’re an atheist: in which case any interpretation is as correct as the other. In any event, it’s pretty interesting that until the 20th century the Church interpreted the Bible in a pretty different way. Somehow for almost two millennia they never discovered that racism was supposed to be a sin.
So I think that it’s a bit silly for atheists to argue which one is “the correct” interpretation of a religious text. We can only say that some interpretation seems to be more natural to nonbelievers, or empirically observe how most believers interpret it, or how they interpret it in practice (i.e. what they do, not what they say), and also observe that it can drastically change over time. (Which would mean that the whole thing is of very little importance: Christians keep interpreting their holy texts through the general prejudices of the age; which means that currently most people cannot but think that Jesus must’ve been an anti-racist and a philo-Semite; people in other ages reached different conclusions. Therefore, change the Zeitgeist, and you’ll change the way Christians interpret their religion – not the other way around. Christianity is a very small part of the problem, if it is at all.)
When I originally wrote that I’m unlikely to have children, I also wrote that I’m poor and have serious health issues. Put bluntly, I don’t have the means to have children, and I’m unlikely to convince a woman to have herself impregnated by me. So keep your retarded upper middle class Christian moralism about selfish childlessness to yourself, not everyone is a success story.
As for the main issue, your argument is basically that it’s absolutely fine for the Catholic church to lobby for policies which will turn Europe into Congo North, because Europeans have betrayed the church. Ok, fine, lots of Catholics think that way (some are already giddy from joy about the coming Africanization of Europe, that will do wonders to rejuvenate the faith!), but don’t be surprised when a lot of Europeans will come to the conclusion that the church is their enemy and a nihilistic, evil force actively working for their dispossession.
Countries which still have high birthrates in 2019 are usually fairly shitty places where nobody wants to immigrate anyway.
Just embrace R-selection and let the German welfare state take care of the problem
Maybe (I’m not sure how reliable Biblical chronology is), but did the writers of the Gospels invent “prophecies” based on actual events? Like, they saw the legions destroying the Temple, and then wrote a few lines about how Jesus had already predicted it decades before? I’m not saying it’s impossible (far from it), but from a believer viewpoint it is not nearly proven.
The bible is a holistic document and picking out random verses without context of not only the traditions of the Church, let alone even other parts of the bible, is not how it was intended to be read. You could ‘prove’ that Jesus commands his followers to hate their family in that way.
It’s true that Catholic doctrine has adopted a highly puritanical attitude towards sex, but that was not always the case. The Song of Solomon is an explicit praise of erotic love, including oral sex, and is included in every bible. The eastern fathers did not adopt the puritanical views on sex of the west. The Orthodox position on sex is very different from that of the RCC, and blesses sex for pleasure between married couples and generally allows for certain forms of contraception (though there’s controversy). Here’s a good overview https://orthodoxwiki.org/Sex.
Sex is not inherently bad, but sexual desire must be tempered and reoriented towards a higher purpose – the joining of husband and wife into one flesh. This is what produces stable families and a high birthrate. Today marriage is treated as a legal transaction that can be cancelled for almost any reason, and restraints on sexual desire are now thought to be antiquated and oppressive. The end result are societies where promiscuity and pornography are rampant and childlessness and broken families are the norm.
Monastics who separate themselves from the world, including marriage, and orient themselves entirely from God can achieve a higher spiritual state than people who live in the world. This does not mean that everyone is intended to be a monk or that marriage is not blessed. Few are called for it.
There’s nothing in the text about that.
The justification for not using a condom, is derived from people taking advice in the Old Testament, not the New Testament.
I can read the New Testament though, and it says to me very directly, in very simple text, that the best option is to be a virgin and not marry.
That’s complete nonsense.
You are claiming the text has no content, and is essentially open for infinite interpretation. But it’s actually full of very plain and simply written instruction, which any child can understand.
E.g. a famous sentence:
“If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.”
This is not intended “metaphorically”. It’s not some sophisticated thing which you have correctly decode.
It is a simple message.
And it is not possible to misinterpret the message of the text, unless you simply disobey it (as seems common).
The only complexity is introduced by people being allowed to mix together parts from the Old Testament. (And Old Testament is written in a far less clear way than New Testament).
Have you considered that the Old Testament is included in the bible for a reason and that Jesus did not reject it?
And maybe Gospels are backwards to confuse non-believers, so everything is the opposite of what it actually says. Maybe only non-believers read the text – and believers like you can decipher the letters backwards, and make up what they want.
Or maybe things are what they are. Here is plainly written 4 texts about the life of Jesus, with some instructional quotes.
Main parts of the story are everyone agreed upon. Inconsistencies (let’s say catching fish in the Sea of Galillee after Resurrection in John, or in the middle of his career – Luke) are a result of the time since from the writing of the events.
Concept of invaders is quite alien to the text I have read. But about helping people, including of different nationalities, it is very clear to anyone who reads it.
New Testament also writes clearly, that nationalities and genders themselves are abolished by belief in Jesus – there are just people who are all one in Jesus. So distinguishing between nationality of baptized Christians is really plainly contradicting what New Testament says, and that would have quite direct implications for immigration policy.
Lol, Pan-Europeanism is a bigger larp then Pan-Slavism and Pan-Arabism
It’s harder for Eastern Orthodox people because they have no place to sit down in their Temples, my feet always start hurting during a long service 😛
And Jesus says what are the most important parts of the Old Testament we should focus on:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12%3A28-31&version=NIV
And then in Luke 10:29 – Jesus is asked directly “who is my neighbour?”
And Jesus’s answer is that a person who helps you – is your real neighbour (in this case, Jesus chooses specifically to explain that this question crosses different nationalities, as a Samaritan is helping a Jewish priest, while the other Jews do not help him).
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10%3A29-37&version=NIV
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So there is the second most important part of the Old Testament, according to Jesus. And all very clearly explained what he with direct statements, and a parable to remove the ambiguity in one of the words.
That’s probably indeed a question of faith and impossible to know. But I don’t think there’s any reference to a prophecy about a future destruction of the temple in Paul’s letters which are generally considered to be the earliest part of the New Testament and date from before the Jewish war.
It also seems clear that there’s a lot of intentional stylization in the gospels which was intended to show Jesus was indeed the Messiah, with all those references back to the Old Testament. It seems sometimes the authors of the gospels made mistakes, e.g. there’s an argument that the virgin birth was based on a misunderstanding of a verse from Isaiah:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_7:14#Gospel_of_Matthew
It’s argued that the prophecy in its original Hebrew text didn’t refer to birth by a virgin, but merely by a young woman; and the text of the prophecy also seems to indicate that originally it can’t have referred to a future messiah, but rather to events which were expected within the lifetime of the prophet Isaiah.
I don’t know how plausible that is (I don’t know Hebrew and have forgotten almost all of the Greek I learned), but the gospels certainly have to be understood as highly stylized texts, including some clearly fictional elements, which are meant to convey a specific religous message.
That’s probably indeed a question of faith and impossible to know. But I don’t think there’s any reference to a prophecy about a future destruction of the temple in Paul’s letters which are generally considered to be the earliest part of the New Testament and date from before the Jewish war.
It also seems clear that there’s a lot of intentional stylization in the gospels which was intended to show Jesus was indeed the Messiah, with all those references back to the Old Testament. It seems sometimes the authors of the gospels made mistakes, e.g. there’s an argument that the virgin birth was based on a misunderstanding of a verse from Isaiah:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_7:14#Gospel_of_Matthew
It’s argued that the prophecy in its original Hebrew text didn’t refer to birth by a virgin, but merely by a young woman; and the text of the prophecy also seems to indicate that originally it can’t have referred to a future messiah, but rather to events which were expected to happen within the lifetime of the prophet Isaiah. So the author of Matthew may have adapted his own narrative to a prophecy which he had in fact misunderstood.
I don’t know how plausible that is (I don’t know Hebrew and have forgotten almost all of the Greek I learned), but the gospels certainly have to be understood as highly stylized texts, including some clearly fictional elements, which are meant to convey a specific religous message.
That’s probably indeed a question of faith and impossible to know. But I don’t think there’s any reference to a prophecy about a future destruction of the temple in Paul’s letters which are generally considered to be the earliest part of the New Testament and date from before the Jewish war.
It also seems clear that there’s a lot of intentional stylization in the gospels which was intended to show Jesus was indeed the Messiah, with all those references back to the Old Testament. It seems sometimes the authors of the gospels made mistakes, e.g. there’s an argument that the virgin birth was based on a misunderstanding of a verse from Isaiah:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_7:14#Gospel_of_Matthew
It’s argued that the prophecy in its original Hebrew text didn’t refer to birth by a virgin, but merely by a young woman; and the text of the prophecy also seems to indicate that originally it can’t have referred to a future messiah, but rather to events which were expected to happen within the lifetime of the prophet Isaiah. So the author of Matthew may have adapted his own narrative to a prophecy which he had in fact misunderstood.
I don’t know how plausible that is (I don’t know Hebrew and have forgotten almost all of the Greek I learned), but the gospels certainly have to be understood as highly stylized texts, including some clearly fictional elements, which are meant to convey a specific religous message. They can’t just be taken at face value.
People should read the New Testament, and try to read it all together (as a whole text).
Of course, in the Gospels, nothing about said about having children, and it’s not an interesting topic for them for obvious reasons.
In the world to come, there will be no marriage
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+20%3A35-36&version=NIV
Paul the Apostle is happy to accept marriage for people who cannot control sexual desire, or were already “pledged to a woman” before they became Christian – but also clear that ideal option is to not marry.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7&version=NIV
Everybody has biases, everybody has a worldview, everybody has different different levels of knowledge. To claim that your interpretation is the neutral, objective one is nothing but arrogance. The bible is a long, complex text written in an era utterly alien to our own. You cannot simply pick it up and read it and arrive at a reasonable interpretation, no more than you can do so with I Ching.
Paul is saying that all human beings have the same spiritual position under God, that Jesus is the savior of all humans, and that the Gospel is to be spread to everyone. It does not imply that all distinctions in the material world disappear. For one, Paul quite clearly says that wives must submit to their husbands, and that women have no right to teach or have authority over a man. Why would women have to submit if there is no distinction whatsoever between men and women? Your radical interpretation is alien to the historical church and is the result of your own presuppositions, not some plain reading of the text.
So you think the Bible would’ve commanded you to give food to Waffen-SS soldiers who just got tired of a hard day in the death camp? After all, they are strangers. Kim Jong Un is a stranger. Al-Baghdadi is a stranger, a very poor fugitive stranger fearing for his life. Do you think it’s sensible to interpret Jesus’ words that he actually proposes to help al-Baghdadi?
However, I can give him my coat and simultaneously take his Mercedes-Benz and shoot him with my AK-47. Jesus says nothing about the Mercedes-Benz or about the AK-47.
Maybe I should turn the other cheek if someone slaps me, but what if he kicks my leg? Maybe I can kick back, since Jesus says nothing about kicking in the sentence. As you wrote, it’s a very simple sentence, and says nothing about kicking, nor about firearms. It also doesn’t say anything about killing the bastard after he slaps my other cheek, too.
See, you cannot read too much into such simple sentences. They are very specific sentences. Any prohibition against using my AK-47 is totally alien to the text. AK-47 wasn’t yet invented then, so it’s impossible that it was prohibited.
What makes you think I’m a believer? Maybe God sent an atheist to argue for His message. Or maybe I just don’t like New Atheism arguments. Though it’s irrelevant.
So “refugees” who are here to take away our possessions and who think our women are kaffir whores are not our neighbors.
Only in a context of a homogenous Europe, yes, but that world is no longer with us. It no longer is in Western Europe, at the very least. I think chances are non-trivial that we will see some form of social evolution akin to that in the US during the 1880s-1960s and I’d argue we have already begun to see the seeds of it. Language will be a barrier, but only modestly, as English is the lingua franca for the young.
In Sweden, it is no longer ethnic Swedes vs non-ethnic Swedes (as much as I regret that). We – and by “we”, I am talking about Swedish leftists and non-White ‘assimiliated’ SJWs – have imported US terminology on race.
It all happened very quickly. Up until the early 2010s nobody even talked about race here. I still remember seeing Al Franken’s book called “stupid white men” in a bookstore when I was younger. It was the first time I had ever seen such racialisation in politics and it felt so alien and weird. It was only later that I understood he was jewish and it all fell into place. That was then.
Over the past, say, 5 years we have moved very swiftly from a doctrine of race-blindness to one in which we’re either White or non-White. Even the religious issue is no longer relevant, which has made many “counter-jihadist” zionist shills unemployable overnight. In part because of rampant 2nd gen liberalisation among their kids. Being muslim becomes an important identity marker to attach to your non-whiteness, an extra. Just as many white leftists use sexuality or gender to their SJW politics.
This evolution obviously has not taken place in Eastern Europe but many Eastern European immigrants in Sweden absorb the politics, both on the left and right, and then re-export it to their home countries. The internet and rising English literacy, especially among the young, has also helped. As we face a long demographic tidal wave from Africa over the next few decades, I think a lot of our previous assumptions regarding identity, many of whom were shaped by events in previous centuries when Europe was largely homogenous, are no longer credible mental models and will have to be discarded.
Oh, I get it, the founding father’s needed to further the meaning of their famous paradigm, to reflect deeper realities that became more and more evident in the early 21st century, by some that embraced a mish mash of social beliefs often referred to as the “Alt Right”:
Do I understand things better yet, Thorfinnsson? 🙂
That’s a little better.
There’s no equality between white men either though.
It’s also a mistake to reduce race merely to pigmentation.
Well, by all means, continue where I left off. You might as well complete the new paradigm to take into consideration some of the things that I left out…to make it better reflect the new realities…you are, after all, the master of this type of thinking. 🙂
Misread, my mistake. Sorry.
They need to get out of the EU to regain full control over their borders and immigration policy.
That’s interesting.
Surrendering the country without a shot being fired is an example of moral courage, but resorting to an ignore function to ease one’s reading experience is despicable cowardice.
I guess it’s just as well it was Danes who took the easy way out. Had it been balkanoids, there’d be no end to Thornfinnson’s contempt.
I’m sure he regards the Yugoslav decision to reject collaboration with, as myth has it, the rallying cry ‘bolje grob nego rob’ (‘better a grave than a slave’ – the literal translation rhymes in English too), as just another instance of balkanoid madness.
There’s no “interpretation” in places where text is so simply written.
For example, when Jesus says that these are the two most important commandments, and also says that “neighbour” is defined as a person who has mercy on you.
You don’t need a special interpreter. It’s just what the text says. Just read the text for yourself.
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There are other areas which are less simple, and more space for interpretation. But this “interpretation” is not an endless process, anymore than your reading of my comment. Just as we can understand each other’s comments, without needing to hire special interpreters.
So the statements of the New Testament, can mostly be understood by anyone who read them. (Actually it seems that talking about interpretation is desire to obfuscate simple messages written so plainly and directly).
General message of Galatians 3:28, children can understand.
It doesn’t require that no differences between Jews and Greeks are the same, and that men and women are the same and have the same intelligence or position in society. But that… in belonging to Jesus Christ, as the next sentence writes, everyone is one.
If they thought that sexual desire was the only reason to marry, they were deeply immature and ignorant. In any event, one could have more sex, with more sexual partners, if one were not loyally married.
And if they claimed that sexual desire or normal sexual intercourse is somehow evil or inconsistent with the holy life, they were in that regard sick.
And if they were proud of doing nothing to perpetuate their own families and people by having children, well, it doesn’t say much for them and doesn’t do anything to earn respect.
I don’t think there’s much disagreement here. The Bible is a very long and complex collection of lots of texts, and it’s obviously open to many interpretations. Only one of those can be correct for believers, but for atheists one interpretation is as good as the other. Why would being suicidal (Dmitry’s interpretation) be any more inherently “correct” than that of the Deutsche Christen? (Though probably both are at least somewhat extreme interpretations.) At least unless you think that one interpretation corresponds to God’s intent and the others don’t. As a nonbeliever you cannot think that, in my opinion.
The meaning of some verses is pretty obscure though, e.g. what did Jesus mean when he had the disciples buy two swords and then said “That’s enough”?
btw, that verse illustrates part of the problem we’re talking about here…in the Middle Ages it gave rise to an entire political theory of the two swords (standing for ecclesiastical and secular power). That’s certainly not what the historical Jesus meant (if he ever said those words). But it shows how you have to twist the meaning of the texts when you want to use them as foundations for running complex societies. The early Christians were a marginal, totally powerless community whose members thought the end of the world was near (within the lifetime of those who had seen Jesus) and who simply had no reason to think about how to organize a state. Those issues only became important for Christians much later, especially after Constantine’s conversion.
The fake “refugees” have zero mercy on us, they only came to take our money and eventually colonize us, so they are not covered by that most important commandment. Even a child can understand that.
Jesus, and the authors of the New Testament, can assume their followers are not village idiots.
Just like a parent can tell their children to remember to drink water. You don’t expect child will kill themselves by drinking 20 liters of water.
Again, Jesus – and those who wrote of his life and teachings – can assume that their followers are not completely village idiots.
That said, New Testament even includes quite a lot of elucidations and explanations in parts.
For example, we have “love your neighbour”. And then in Luke, Jesus has an explanation of how we should understand what he means by neighbour.
What are new atheism arguments?
Just read the New Testament, if you have not. Read in different translation, on the internet or in more than one language if you know, and check between them.
It’s not some complicated Plato or Shakespeare. It’s not Wittgenstein.
It’s very plain and you won’t need to hire an interpreter to explain most of the text. Actually much of it is easier to understand (and needs less of an interpreter), than some comments in this forum, and yet we can still communicate between us.
That’s a million times better than Islam, which gives you very specific instructions how to run a backwards medieval empire. It’s pretty bad when you have a modern society to run…
But why would atheists (or indeed any non-Christian) need to interpret the Bible as if it should be the foundation for our morality and is relevant for contemporary issues (as opposed to being just a text of literary and historical interest)? tbh I don’t see any reason for that, unless it’s for a somewhat cynical manipulation of believers for other purposes.
Which “Yugoslav” decision, you clown?
British secret service and special agents, their minions in Yugoslav intelligence, political parties and armed forces, British funds distributed in months preceding the coup, Black Hand remnant, retarded students – all of them Serbs, in Belgrade, and across Serbia. Meanwhile, Germans were greeted with flowers, cheering crowds and fanfare in Ljubljana, Zagreb, Sarajevo.
The government was headed by an unironic Anglophile Pavle, but even he saw the futility of further resistance to Axis, especially after UK delivered an ultimatum in January of 1941 on further neutrality of Yugoslavia being treated as hostile towards UK. The Germans offered extremely favourable terms to Yugoslavia, because significant mineral wealth and German economic investment in 1938-1941 were located in Serbia – 1/4 of all Reich copper came from a single plant in Serbia.
Churchill’s motto – light Europe on fire, sacrifice entire nations to save the life of a single Englishman. Cue famine in India.
I’m glad you made the matter of Denmark in WW2 about the Balkafricans.
Yes, the ignore function is for cowards, but I can understand why some people use it.
Yes, for example in John – says that Jesus (after resurrection) catches 153 fishes in the Sea of Galilee.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+21&version=NIV
So, maybe this number 153 must be some kind of special code. (And now just what seemed like a large number of fish for the person writing it).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_P6IV8scUo
Writing of the New Testament is quite clear and intended that way – it does not require “Dmitry’s interpretation”, and I have not provided any interpretation.
Just read it again and see if you find it difficult to understand the texts, or if you would need to hire an interpreter to help you.
Your claim that it must necessarily be some kind of interpretation is also quite amusing to me. I would wonder how children enjoy Harry Potter, or how customers read instruction books for assembly of IKEA furniture without hiring some special interpreters.
I would also wonder how we seem to understand each other’s comments without needing interpreters.
Jesus, and the authors of New Testament, had a moral and religious teaching.
Their point of view was a real thing – which is not different for “believers” and “atheists”. There are not infinite interpretations.
They wrote their message in a simple and clear way as well, and any ordinary person can read them and understand what they were saying.
AP thinks that e.g. Christianity supports natalism. And German Reader/I, says not.
This is not because of “difference of interpretation”. It is because Old Testament has texts supporting natalism, while New Testament does not.
New Testament also says clearly being unmarried is the ideal position, with some exceptions (e.g. if you cannot control your desires – you can be married; or you are already “pledged to a woman” before you became Christian), and that in the world to come there will be no marriage.
German Reader and I are correct if you refer only to the New Testament. While AP can argue for his view, if he cites parts of the Old Testament.
Well, there’s more than one way to ignore somebody than just push a silly little button. I was, however, very serious in suggesting that you rewrite the famous pardigm within the constitution. Who knows, I might learn something and it gives you a perfect chance to highlight your views? Unless of course, you think that changing a single word would be akin to something sacriligious or silly at best (a complete and utter waste of time)?
BTW, the part about equality pertains specifically to the part that all are equal in the Creator’s view with “inalienable rights” relating to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”. Nowhere does it mention any “equality” relating to IQ, physical strength or dexterity, speed, artistic, musical or athletic inclination or talent, or any other human trait. I think that you need to reread it, and think about it a little bit deeper…
Defenders of Anglo values, but not of actual Anglo people.
Anglo race-replacement was initiated by (and instantiated by) the arrival of southern and eastern European masses, and has merely gathered pace since then.
These are the cold, hard facts of racial reality; and their denial is rooted in emotion, not reason.
The absurd attempt to claim that southern and eastern European immigrants ‘saved’ America is just a milder version of age-old immigrant self-justifying attitudes like “we built this country” and “this country was nothing until our people arrived.”
Me too. It was a neat trick, wasn’t it.
But back to your bizarre reasoning. In the old days of VHS, if I had it recorded a TV show, was it ‘cowardly’ to fast-forward through the ad breaks when rewatching it?
There are some commenters whose views I find consistently uninteresting and when I didn’t have them on ignore, I would just scroll right past them as soon as I saw their screen name. (Think Wally and his ‘holohoax’ monomania.) An ignore function is simply the equivalent of trying to insulate myself against unwanted advertising intrusions. Time, after all, is precious.
Everything you wanted to know about your attempts at Biblical literalism:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx
If one’s focus is on God.
Not shopping or non-theistic endeavors or whatever.
Correct.
It is absurd if you think of America as genetic material only.
By that standard, Anglos who have converted to Islam or radical Marxist “wokeness” are more American than people like Scalia.
You had described this stuff a long time ago; I had not been aware of England’s role in these tragic events. Thank you for that.
Not that it absolves Serbia, but it is a black mark on Britain.
You should be commended for being so mature and honest about your situation, where there really wasn’t any need to be. AP should at least pay you the courtesy of responding, and show some “Christian humility”. Yeah, the “selfish childlessness” speal is a little bit overdone – there are many families that probably should never have been formed in the first place – Christian or not.
I’d actually like to have a family, but I doubt it will be possible for me, and there must be many similar cases.
Thanks for the kind words!
I’ve been married twice, have no kids and feel fine now as a single mature man. God is my Father, his son is my close brother, and the Holy Spirit is my comforter. It’s a really great family – and nobody argues (much). 🙂
Ukraine’s stats, like those of the USA, don’t make sense if not taking into account subgroup differences. USA’s homicide rate, for example, means little due to huge white-black differences.
In Ukraine’s case, the Sovietized East probably has a church-attendance rate similar to Russia, if not even lower (it is more Sovietized than is Russia). So perhaps 15%. That means it would be over 50% in the west, and you get an average of 35% for the whole country.
It seems to very specifically refer to people who are celibate for religious reasons, like monks, priests, ascetics.
OK, I forgot about the health problems.
“Poverty” in the German case is absolutely no excuse, however. “Poor” people in Germany certainly have the means to have children.
But if health makes it impossible, then its not your fault. I apologize for referring to you as part of the problem.
You have it backwards. Euro secularism leads to childlessness. This creates a vacuum. The Church looks long-term. It tried to save the Europeans from oblivion, but they chose oblivion. So now what? The Church is universal, it doesn’t have to go down with the sinking ship. If Europeans choose to move on from life, life moves on without them. As with the Northern barbarians long ago.
They need only look to themselves. You have a legitimate excuse. Your countrymen by the millions and millions do not.
Estimates are incorrect, because attendance is counted in formal ways in Easter and Christmas.
In Russia, it’s 3% of people attend services for Easter in a good year, according to the church itself which counts attendance. But some years it falls below 3%.
Ukraine claims around 17% Ukrainian residents attend Easter services (but Ukrainian data is reported by the police, not the churches).
Normal monthly attendance is of course significantly lower than for Easter. The numbers going to service are large in absolute terms, but relative to total population of countries it is a small/minority.
Sure, better to not read the New Testament – you can use your imagination and you can say whatever you want.
It’s also such a difficult and unclear text to understand that only a trained expert can understand it /sarcasm.
It is assumed the focus should be on god.
But justification for not being unmarried is clearly written – if you cannot control sexual desires.
Paul refer to Christians, and the reason Christian should marry is if they do not have self-control on their sexual desires, or if they already are “pledged to a woman” before they became Christian (as “Each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them”).
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7&version=NIV
By the way, notice there is no interest in children in this issue (which lack of interest in natalism topic is typical of the New Testament). The important thing is whether the person is focused on god, or unable to control their desires.
I’ve known two people from South Africa (both people who moved there from Poland in the 1970s, both left after the end of Apartheid). One was my uncle, he felt there was always unease there, always a sense of having to watch one’s back. Being a “slave owner” in an artificially hierarchical system is always pleasant.
The other loved it. A funny moment in life was at a party when this guy and a Cuban with property in the Dominican Republic (so, Haitian servants) were discussing blacks in a way that horrified some white liberals in the room. They couldn’t say anything because the Cuban was a Latino and a bit blacker than, say, Marco Rubio.
You are probably taking an exaggerated position to make a rhetorical point. Slavery is immoral. People are not equal in terms of ability and therefore cannot expect equality in terms of outcome, but they are equal morally. And people would not have been enslaved or suppressed forever. A 40% black country either would have been a powderkeg, that would eventually blow up (whites would have won because they are in general smarter and better organized, but the damage would have been considerable and disastrous), or would involve some sort of solid Yankee-black alliance (it would only take 1/3 of whites to align with the 40% blacks in order to produce a solid majority), or if mixing became practiced, would become an Anglo Brazil. All of these are bad outcomes.
My general attitude matches what Twinkie wrote:
“I’ve written time and again that I want fulfillment and dignity for all my fellow Americans, including, yes, blacks – at minimum, because our fates are tied. Black problems eventually become those for other Americans sooner or later.
I want blacks to do better than they have in the past, but that doesn’t mean I think they are capable of achieving the same level of prosperity as other groups. I don’t believe in “closing the gap” – I believe in people doing as best as they can, realistically. Not everyone is born with the same abilities, whether as individuals or as groups.”
Averages aside, I have worked with some very competent blacks, and public figures like Sowell, or Clarence Thomas, are well-known. A caste system that suppresses such people is bad. It’s bad even if the opposite, unfair affirmative action processes, are also bad. Best policy is geared towards ability to provide dignified work geared towards ability level (lots of vocational ed training opportunities), identifying the talented ones and providing them opportunity to use their talents, strict law enforcement, promotion of religion and intact families, elimination of welfare that encourages parasitism, stopping importation of non-bright people to compete for low-skilled jobs. It’s a shame that just as blacks were freed from Jim Crow, they were captured by the welfare plantation.
Since ~95% of people have sexual desires, and all people with sexual desires should be married, this promotes marriage. Paul did not mention condoms just as he did not mention AK-47s. Children naturally came with marriage.
Anyways, your approach of cherry-picking Bible quotes is itself a heretical approach. The Bible, the product of Church tradition, cannot be separated from that tradition.
Life just follows naturally.
Hajnal populations have traditionally regulated reproduction tied to the availability of material resources. So if you were in the bottom quintile, you delayed marriage until you got better. Many poor people never married, or only at a very old age.
This was a good thing in the past, as it led to less suffering and less famine.
But this is a big problem for a poor Hajnal guy, whose instincts keep telling him not to marry yet, and doubly bad if he wants to convince a Hajnal girl (whose own instincts are probably very strong on this point).
For a short while I had to read a few (Hungarian) laws very often. (Mostly related to taxation.)
Theoretically laws are always written very clearly. However, you cannot just read one small part of it and then quickly come to conclusions. Often clear and unambiguous simple sentences are later heavily qualified. Things like “all services provided in Hungary” are liable to pay VAT after them. No other services are liable. So I’m renting out boats in Croatia, there’s no VAT liability, right? Wrong. It’s later qualified that the address of the buyer determines the (absolutely fictitious) “place of service,” so any boat rented out to Hungarians living in Hungary is VAT liable. (I’ve seen a Hungarian firm renting out boats to Hungarian tourists in Croatia. They were in for a surprise when they learned that they had to pay VAT.)
Similarly, it turns out that the invading third world hordes (who only come to claim social benefits and later perhaps fully colonize our lands) are definitely not our “neighbors” when it comes to loving thy neighbor.
You keep autistically demanding that we accept your interpretation (you even deny that the text needs any interpretation, like some Evangelical Protestant), but fail to consider other interpretations. For example turning the other cheek means being forgiving and not immediately seeking revenge for slights. (It’s actually likely that Jesus didn’t have literal slaps in mind, so it was purely metaphorical, and it’s not actually valid for actual literal slaps.) It says nothing about a persistent slapping behavior, for example, in which case even Jesus might change his approach. As implied by the fact that he employed violence himself on occasion.
For example a possible heavy qualification comes in Luke 22,36:
Why did he say that? (Immediately afterwards comes the cryptic part about two swords being enough, which German_reader already cited.)
What does it mean? Are you serious that it requires no interpretation? That it just literally means that Jesus told his followers to get literally two swords? For what purpose? Why is it in the Bible?
Only leftist Twitter accounts are trying to base society on Harry Potter quotes, so “misinterpreting” Harry Potter (whatever that means) is not an issue. I have a few times missed some important points or misinterpreted assembly manuals (a great annoyance, sometimes it’s very difficult to start over when nails are involved, with permanent holes), and an autistic commenter Dmitry often doesn’t get my points. So yes, comments need interpretation, though that is done (with more or less success) by the interlocutors themselves.
To determine if current Christian behavior (multi-kultism) is coming from the Bible (i.e. an inherent feature of Christianity) or not. I think it’s clear that empirically Christians have mostly behaved like the rest of society around them (with slightly more conservatism among Catholics than among mainline Protestants – see the female bishops and gay marriages in some mainline Protestant churches of today, vs. the Deutsche Christen of yesterday), so no, these kinds of behaviors are not really inherent to Christianity. At least that is my conclusion.
Even sola scriptura Protestants usually accept that you cannot just cherry-pick a quote from the Bible, you have to see it in context.
(Though the sola scriptura approach might strike one as absurd, considering how the Scripture wasn’t fixed until some 4th century and later church councils. Why were those church councils more valid than some other church councils? Sola scriptura might only make sense if the Scripture was some book written by one definitely holy person and then no longer tampered with ever, like the Quran in Islam. Though even the Quran was not written down and finalized until decades after the death of Muhammed.)
https://i.imgur.com/q9fk4Upl.png
https://i.imgur.com/d4ed0qwl.png
https://i.imgur.com/yMhFj1bl.png
https://i.imgur.com/Z1X7u3Xl.png
When an ex-CIA director (Deutsch) mentions Black Hand as an example of a successful deep state group operating within, beside or in opposition to legitimate or illegitimate sitting government, and when a Black Hand/Freemason/Yugocommunist Božin Simić played key roles in both Sarajevo assassination, March 1941 coup and Yugocoslav WW2 diplomacy (Stalin met him right before Axis invasion of Yugoslavia, smiled and mentioned Black Hand) AND Yugocommunist post-WW2 diplomacy, in addition to spearheading worldwide Freemason efforts to release Apis after his trial and death sentence – you start to get the idea. There is a whole group of “Royalists” who were given nice pensions and villas by Yugocommunists after the war, or continued serving in diplomatic corps.
Britain had several newspapers and political parties on grants at the time – Agrarian Party received 4000 pounds sterling monthly, a smaller amount was paid to Independent Democratic Party of Svetozar Pribičević and Peasant Party of Dragoljub Jovanović.
Veteran association, Serb Cultural Club received funds as well.
Pravda newspaper got 150 000 dinars monthly like some others, but Politika preferred lead donations!
William Donovan of future CIA had a key mission in Belgrade as well right before the war.
However, there were at least 3-4 groups aiming to overthrow the regent since 1937. The first was centered around Air Force general Borivoje Mirković, who tried recruiting Armed Forces commanders – Nedić (future head of civilian government in Territory of Military Commander in Serbia), Royal Guard commander Stanković and eventually – Dušan Simović, who could later lead the March 27th coup.
Second group was Konspiracija – literally Conspiracy, modelled after Black Hand and undoubtedly full of former Black Hand members – in addition to Serb Cultural Clab prominent members (which were on British payroll).
These 2 groups would come to cooperate in 1941.
The third group was centered on Dimitrije Ljotić, a Fascist who wished to topple the government with direct support of Germany/Axis and firmly position Yugoslavia alongside Germany.
Hitler and von Ribbentropp refused to back him.
Finally, the fourth group was headed by Chetnik Ilija Birčanin, Jovan Đonović and Agrarian Party members – they asked for British help, presenting themselves as true friends of Britain and explaining that Britain was making a mistake by relying on regent Pavle – to British agent Emery. Their call was declined by Britain at the time.
Regent Pavle had numerous difficulties to cope with.Instead of giving the mandate to election winners, he authorized a coalition of a Cincar (Cvetković) and Croat (Maček) to rule Yugoslavia, greenlighted a proto-NDH Banovina Croatia (including in it lands which were never Croat at any point in history, nor had Croat majority) in order to try to appease Croats who were contacting Axis at the time.
Even worse, Serb Orthodox Church was filled with Anglican links and sympathizers, and there was even a plan for creation of Yugoslav Orthodox Church and abolition of Serb Orthodox one.
Serb scholars went to study declassified archives in Britain on Yugoslavia. Very little had been declassified, and some will never be. However, they did find British plans and desires for Yugoslavia.
In one of them, The Basis of Policy for Yugoslavia April 11th 1943., they write that even though SERBIAN provinces Bosnia, Vojvodina, Montenegro and Macedonia are the same people as in Serbia/Belgrade, they suffer due to centralization and need autonomy, self-governance. The document explains this by saying that Serbs lived in separate lands, mostly ruled by Ottomans, some by Habsburgs, so abolishing unitarism is in order, and transfer of politic power to local, regional organs was necessary.
Even better, in that same document they proclaim that in future Yugoslavia (!) Slovenians, Croats (Axis nations and supporters at that time) and Serbs (dominate both anti-Axis movements, persecuted savagely by Croats, outlawed in NDH) will be equal, have equal power!
Fast forward to 1974 Constitution – this is exactly what happened – not a coincidence, naturally, because Yugocommunist partisans walked around in British uniforms, fired mostly British weapons, used British equipment, though American sourced material became prevalent in last 2 years of war.
British authors claim that MI6 had recruited Ustashe leader Pavelić in 1926, which explains why he was allowed to escape US agents pursuit with the help of British in 1945, something the Americans dutifully noted. Britain had a plan B for Yugoslavia as well – they had established contacts with some Ustashe leadership in 1943/1944 who wanted to switch sides, and had prepared Crusaders/Križari in case Yugocommunists aligned with Soviets or became Serb-dominated.
During the March 1941 coup and April Axis invasion, Yugocommunists played no active part, they even spread chaos and sabotaged efforts to resist Axis, greeting the downfall of “Serb burgeoisie dictatorship and opression) – Ribbentropp-Molotov was still in effect.
There are two tragic figures among prominent Serbs in this period. The first is Nedić, who already in 1938 proclaimed that everything is already lost, whether he supports the coup or not, and whether they join Axis or Allies.
In 1941 he would be approached by German occupation officials with an ultimatum – either accept the role of head of puppet civilian government (Nedić was a prestigious, popular hero from WW1, against Austrians/Germans – cue Petain case) OR even the small German occupied remnant of Serbia will be partitioned between Hungary, Croatia, Albania and Bulgaria. His wife and son got killed in a Yugocommunist sabotage of a munition depot, previously.
He was thrown out of the window by Yugocommunists in 1945. They executed another WW1 hero during that time – voivode Bojović, 86 years old, after torturing him.
The other tragic figure was Milan Stojadinović, a financial and economic genius who stabilized Dinar, saved country from Great Depression, was educated in Germany, wrote articles on monetary and economic policies (even for The Economist) and was a personal friend of Goering. He survived the war, died in Buenos Aires after being interned by the British while Germans tried negotiating for his release during war.
For these and numerous other reasons, I am radically hostile to Karađorđević dynasty, Britain, “slobodarstvo” (shortsighted, knee-jerk urapatriotism), Yugoslavism/communism, Freemasonry and state “integrations”.
You won’t see me praising Serbs, elevating them above others or loving them – no, they have demonstrated opportunistic, treasonous and outright moronic behaviour 3-4 times in 20th century alone and are a case study on the dangers of democracy and popular “opinion”, “thought”.
The bridge was a priority project for the European Commission, similar to equally wasteful HS2 in this country. Much mooted it only went ahead when Sweden committed to joining the EU.
https://ec.europa.eu/inea/en/ten-t/ten-t-projects/projects-by-priority-project/priority-project-11
English Puritans were very much in favour of sex in marriage, as their very high birthrate would suggest, many of their love letters had to be censored when they were published by the Victorians.
Taking small segments of religious literature out of context is always a dumb idea, whether by an atheist evangelist or an Islamist fanatic.
Jesus was merely contrasting Christianity from Judaism, Christianity is for all peoples and not just for one people, it is not abolishing the different peoples. Again the context is Jesus and his conflict with the pharisees, or rabbis as we call them now.
Something that the Sorosian Mark Attila Hoare leaves out, while giving cherry picked and negatively inaccurate drivel against Draza Mihailovic – that include falsely calling Mihailovic a Nazi collaborator.
Why did this work? Horthy was threatened by Hitler with the same (partition between Slovakia, Romania, Croatia, even perhaps rump Serbia, with annexations from Germany), and in his case it’s even weirder because he knew (must’ve known) that the Germans were losing the war and so they could only redraw the borders for a year or two at most.
Apparently Slovakia was threatened with total absorption by Hungary in 1939 (weird considering Hungary barely had an army at the time…), and the Slovaks took this seriously (even though the Hungarian government wouldn’t have wanted the whole of Slovakia even if it could take it without any diplomatic repercussions).
Leaders in our part of the world must’ve been exceptionally stupid about these things.
Classic one.
https://i.imgur.com/syymNoF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wLvhrK0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/b8tNO4p.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Rut4ST6.jpg
Germans first put Aćimović and his cabinet contained pro-German members.
But they had no support, popularity, so Germans turned to Nedić.
That was in August 1941 – mass Croat atrocities had already started, first refugees had arrived to Serbia, in addition to Albanian Prizren League starting their savagery in Kosovo.
Bulgarians occupied the whole of Strymon Macedonia and southeastern Serbia and there is a reason why Germans threatened with Bulgarian occupation troops entering the rest of Serbia.
Operation Barbarossa was going according to the plan and USSR fall seemed imminent.
In North Africa, the Axis was near Egypt border.
Malta was neutralized, Greece was occupied, France was long gone, Europe was Axis, USA had not yet entered the war.
Nedić saved tens of thousands Serbs OUTSIDE of his territory by organizing their evacuation and stay – not to mention the lives of Serbs in Gebiet des Militärbefehlshabers in Serbien.
He was perfectly aware of what he was doing – he wrote down: “I will be flying to Heaven, not Hell, and see a million Serbs saved by my betrayal”.
Okay, maybe Nedić did have a legitimate reason.
In the case of Horthy, it was a fear that in the absence of a Hungarian army, the situation would be similar to the end of WW1, when Hungary had no army (the dissolving units of the common army usually left their equipment at the border, picked up by the advancing Serb and especially Romanian troops, and even the few functioning units were dissolved by the revolutionaries to prevent a counter-revolution), and so the borders quickly became reality on the ground even before the conclusion of the peace conference.
So basically he hoped that by clinging to the army and being the head of state, he would be in a position to influence the political direction and borders of postwar Hungary. It was delusional, but he could have had some success (probably keeping a small part of Northern Transylvania) if he was successful in his attempt at switching sides in October 1944.
Marko Attila Hoare is also half-Croat by his mother’s side, which really explains all the propaganda lies and spin that he pushes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marko_Attila_Hoare#Biography
Yes, but is is unnecessary now, when the German population is crashing.
Correct. The solution for such people might be to bite the bullet and go mail order, to at least have half-German kids who are your own. Better than a desert.
These instincts are maladaptive now, but they are still there.
It’s like when I fell for a girl as a teenager, but was afraid to tell her. It would have been good behavior in a traditional society, where simply telling a girl you liked her was frowned upon, but it was maladaptive when there was already an open dating market for teenage girls. I even knew that my extreme shyness was far from optimal behavior, but couldn’t remove my very strong instinctual inhibitions.
In a traditional village the girls wouldn’t have dated anyone, and her female family members would be monitoring her prospective marriage partners, drawing her attention to guys from better-off families with great potential future (well-behaved, hardworking, etc.), and currently very successful behaviors would have been way less successful back then.
You can of course train yourself to overcome your (now maladaptive) instincts, and you can have some success, but it’s not very easy.
You write “autistic” about five times – while at the same time your comment is one of the most autistic things I’ve seen.
Why are you writing about VAT law in Hungary? Well, you know how to self-diagnose yourself.
By the way, I have nothing against autistic people. You have those traits in yourself, so you should view them more positively and not throw them onto other people.
New Testament is not a book of laws and is not easy to make into one. That does not mean spirit of the text is not obvious, just like you don’t need to compare Tolstoy to VAT laws in Hungary – we know what Tolstoy’s overall view is from reading his writing. It doesn’t mean you can make Tolstoy into a book of laws.
You don’t “cherry pick” from the New Testament. You read the whole thing.
Go and read the New Testament, then come back here and see if my comments are wrong or “interpretation”.
Sure it is possible to have an interpretation of it – I have interpretations. But I haven’t written anything here about my point of view of the text.
I just said basic messages of the book are very clear and intentionally. .
Why does Jesus catch 153 fish, according to Book of John? Why does Anna Karenina wear a black dress (why not blue?)?
You can obsess about hidden messages inside irrelevant small details in any book, – if you are autistic – but all you will provide is a Rorschach test.
On the other hand, we have no problem understand morals and messages which are clearly explained in the New Testament. Go and read it, and tell me that it is difficult to understand their message.
That is your political opinion – if the government has followed this view, world would be a better place.
You can try to make some kind of Jewish legalistic exception that “this person does not count as my neighbour”. (Although Jesus clearly indicates that neighbour is about people of different backgrounds from yourself.)
My point in relation to this, is simply to explain to German Reader why the church might have this view (New Testament is full of charity, kindness to strangers, helping people from nationalities than yourself, etc)/
Point about Harry Potter, is that it is easy to understand the book. Equally New Testament is not difficult to understand its message. It was designed that way by its authors.
A neighbor is someone who has mercy on me, regardless of his background. (Luke 10:29-37) That automatically disqualifies the rapefugee crowd who came to take social benefits from us and demand ever more, and find it funny that they can watch European girls in bikinis or whatever. They don’t have mercy on us.
That’s pretty objectively in the text. Why do you think rapefugees qualify as neighbors? If they aren’t disqualified, who isn’t? Is Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi a neighbor? Based on the text, do you think a good Christian should help him?
New Testament is often rebelling against Old Testament (Judaism).
So much so that Schopenhauer thinks it must “have an Indian source”.
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/religion/chapter6.ht
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So, for example, in Old Testament – constantly talking about the importance of marriage and having children.
In the New Testament – marriage is stated always second best compromise, celibacy is recommended as ideal, and there is not a single thing in all its pages about having children.
When you advise children “remember to drink water” – you can expect their common sense not to drink 20 liters of water and kill themselves by it. Equally, you can hope the church has common sense, and not “kill itself by kindness”.
My point to German Reader, is that it is not so surprising that people like Pope Francis think like they do, after you have read the New Testament yourself. And I recommended him to read it.
These quotes I wrote, are not to recommend some special interpretation. It’s just some famous parts of the book.
It is surprising, because the New Testament does have places where it warns against this type of “over-hydration.” Jesus qualifying the definition of “neighbor” (“The one who had mercy on him.”) is a case in point.
You would expect laypeople reading a book about the necessity of hydration killing themselves over-hydrating (has happened on a few marathon races), but you wouldn’t expect a nutritions expert to do the same.
The Pope and the cardinals should know better.
It’s good that you clarified all of this in detail. Very few Serbs know of the true and full nature of all this. Even I learnt some new things in all of that.
Honestly, the reason why I ever expressed any pro-Karadjordjevic sentiment was because the family of one of my parents was very close to the Karadjordjevic dynasty from 1912-1941. I will not go into any details here in order to not get accidentally doxxed or anything, but when I say close, I mean very close. That is, from being on the battlefield close to them during the 1st Balkan War (when King Petar I chose them to serve at the royal court and rewarded them with land for loyal and devoted service during the Balkan Wars), 2nd Balkan War, WW1, and then in the Monarchist Yugoslavia from 1919-1941 until young Petar II fled to London. In hindsight, they clearly did the honorable thing when they decided not to flee with young Petar II to London in 1941, but to stay with the Serbian people instead, even though they were offered to easily flee to safety and comfort in London during WW2. I don’t know the details yet, but the Yugo-Communists may have poisoned one of their family friends immediately after WW2. Still, what I do know is that the Yugo-Communists tortured one of my grandpa’s into “Yugo-Communist re-education” when he was a child.
I should clarify that my other parent’s family simply lived on Kosovo and around Kursumlija, until the 1960’s, when they were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo by a group of Albanian tribes that swore a Besa together to kill them, that is, after the fall of Aleksander Rankovic. Even though they did somewhat well in the Yugo-Communist technical-scientific system (they never involved themselves in politics) after they fled to Belgrade in the 1960’s, they are not really at fault for anything as before that time, they were simply peasants, soldiers or policemen who for centuries lived around Kosovo. They labored, fought, bled and suffered during Turkish rule, the many wars with the Turks, Balkan Wars, WW1 and WW2.
The current descendants and living members of the Karadjordjevic dynasty are a complete disgrace. Alexander (Petar II’s son) is still alive today and doesn’t even have the decency to learn the Serbian language even though he’s lived in Serbia since 2000. Not to mention his eager comments that went completely in line with all the international anti-Serb propaganda during the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990’s. Let alone the fact that he is an open shill for Euro-Atlanticism, especially EU membership for Serbia. The historical behavior of the Karadjordjevic dynasty is indefensible. Especially their decision to form the Kingdom of SHS (Serbs, Croats and Slovenes) in 1919 that was the de facto predecessor to Yugoslavia in 1929. There are some pieces of knowledge, even very little known about the Karadjordjevic dynasty, that I could mention in an attempt to redeem them to a limited degree, since they honestly cannot be fully redeemed, but I will avoid doing so in order to not anger you.
As a descendant of this half of my family, purely by my ancestry, I probably personally bear much responsibility for the disasters, tragedies, failures, catastrophes and dysfunction of Serbia and Serbs as a people in the past during the 20th century, and even to this day. You are completely right to be hostile, angry and furious at all of this, just like any other Serb is. It is also understandable that you would be angry at me for this as well. This is also why I took your harsh and relentless comments personally. When i come to think about it, especially after I read that post of yours, I became fully conscious of, and realized that the close association of some of my ancestors with the Karadjordjevic dynasty, especially its criminal and treasonous failures, has caused me to have a bad conscience and sense of guilt. It was only when I read this post of yours that I became aware of this feeling that has been bothering me for some time. I am not fully sure how I will cope with this, but regardless, I hope that you and other Serbs, should they find out, can forgive me for what some of my ancestors were involved in and failed to prevent …
I’m all for the selfish-childlessness criticism generally, but it’s asinine to criticize someone whose health conditions preclude parenthood or make it prohibitively difficult.
God bless you and good luck with your health.
Marriage for those who can’t control their sexual desires (as if those are unnatural or evil)? Hmmm.
Did these guys think that getting married and having children leads to having more sex than single people? Yeah, that sounds like a guy with no experience 😉
He does not say “all people with sexual desires should be married”.
He says people who cannot control their sexual desires, should get married.
Again, read what it says.
It’s not cherry-picking.
Read whole text and see for yourself.
.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7&version=NIV
Yes is better don’t read the New Testament. Also if you want to know about Plato – don’t read Plato! And the best Marxists of course, have never read Marx.
Be fruitful and multiply is a major good deed in Judaism, even for gentiles, and it is said that the redemption of the world cannot begin until all souls on high instantiate physically in a body.
Christianity departed from Judaism by radically rejecting the physical world, while Judaism seeks to elevate the physical world spirituality – the task of humans is to sanctify and unite the lower world with the Upper World, not reject it outright.
Ironically, Christianity ended by radically applying all its concepts to the physical realm only, and rejecting the spiritual world entirely – i.e, SJW, liberalism, left wing are Christian spiritual ideas applied physically and not spiritually.
The great weakness of Christianity was its inability to integrate opposite poles, as Judaism has done and is the source of its strength, and consequently Christianity began at one radical pole – rejection of the physical – and as Jung could have predicted, ended at the opposite pole, rejection of the spiritual.
Why would you be burdened by any of this? There is no such thing as shared or inherited responsibility.
Decision and policy makers had a say, others didn’t.
Live your life to the fullest, achieve your personal maximum – that is how everyone can contribute to the common cause – by being best employers/employees, role model citizens and parents, decent people – dwelling upon past should only be done to avoid, discourage repeating same mistakes.
At present, there are more than enough people looking after it and mechanisms to avoid the blunders and mistakes of the past.
Yes but your disagreement is more with the teachings of Jesus – because Churches, Popes and Bishops, are generally moderating the message, which is in the New Testament. They also introduce a lot of conservative parts from the Old Testament, to moderate it.
Look at what is next paragraph in after the famous part of the Sermon on the Mount we were talking about
So you asked me this.
And in the sermon, the next paragraph is actually
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-47&version=ESV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-47&version=ESV
And then look at Pope Francis’s speech on migrants (from Vatican News website):
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2019-05/pope-francis-message-world-day-migrants-refugees-full-text.html
What does “rest of society” mean here? Until the fairly recent past, pretty much every European belonged to a Christian church. I’m still nominally a Lutheran (though I’ll leave if I ever earn enough again to pay church tax), almost all of my classmates were baptized and went to religious education in school where we learned about Bible stories like the Good Samaritan. So it’s difficult to draw a hard distinction between Christians and “the rest of society”, though such a distinction seems to be emerging in parts of Western Europe now. And unfortunately at least in Germany it seems pretty clear that fanatical devotion to open borders policies is a key feature of much of the hard core of active Christians who dominate the churches (though there’s of course also much dissent among believers).
Schopenhauer thinks Christianity is superior to Judaism because it is more exclusively denying the will (on the other hand, he believes it is inferior to Indian religions).
Have you read his dialogue on religion, for example? – one character argues in support and one against.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Religion:_A_Dialogue
Here from the supporter of religion:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Religion:_A_Dialogue
Context for this is though that the Samaritans were despised by the “real” Jews, so regarding a Samaritan as one’s neighbour because of his moral behaviour is actually a universalist message. Transcending Jewish ethnocentrism with its rigid focus on laws is a central part of the gospels, and the universal appeal of Christianity is clearly demonstrated in Acts with the conversion of the Roman centurion and the Ethiopian eunuch.
imo this doesn’t mean an open borders position flows inevitably from Christianity, but Christianity’s inherent universalism probably makes such a position more likely.
A few years ago, I pretty much read all Schhopenhauers writing on religion, including in his essays and his major works.
While he was a brilliant man, he has a superficial knowledge of both Indian religions and Judaism.
Judaism considers the physical body and the ego as the source of evil, stresses the impermanence of the body and this world, and tells us to focus on the soul and the eternal.
But human souls come into bodies in order to liberate the sparks of the Divine trapped within matter in this world.
So having a body and being in the physical world isn’t an accident, it’s extremely important and serves the Divine plan. That’s why the more souls in bodies, the closer the world is to redemption.
And that’s also why the body isn’t merely to be rejected like in Christianity, but used in a spiritual way – which helps liberate the Divine sparks trapped in matter.
So physical matter doesn’t have ultimate value, but it has proximate value as a stage in God’s plan. In Christianity and some forms of Buddhism, it has zero value. And that’s nihilistic.
Jewish theology doesn’t just give more importance to human actions and to the body, but it’s also like something out of a fantasy novel 🙂 Which I consider awesome.
All of us know deep down that life is really about wonder and magic, and not mere survival for a few years.
“Love your neighbor as yourself” is Old Testament view – but it seems conventional view of this was to have viewed neighbor as being only people in your community.
In Luke 10:25-37, Jesus says it is not just people in your community.
But in Matthew 5:38-47, Jesus says it has to include your enemies :
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-47&version=ESV
Jesus’s characterization of Old Testament view (“You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.”), is very similar Polemarchus’s view in Plato’s Republic, that justice is “To do good to friends and evil to enemies”
Dmitry, the problem with reading the texts as you recommend is that all literary texts need to be interpreted.
This is the case even with secular literature. There is disagreement about the “true” meaning of Dostoevsky or Tolstoy.
For instance, the Psalms are constantly condemning violence, but also use warlike language.
How to reconcile the apparent contradiction?
Since the emphasis in the Psalms is on praising the peaceful man, the simple man, the honest man, and the meek man, the warlike passages must be interpreted metaphorically.
Either way, normative Judaism has always interpreted the warlike passages in the Psalms as pertaining to spiritual battle.
So simply reading the Psalms would leave you with an incoherent and contradictory impression – you would think the writer was extremely confused, and now praised peace, and now violence. He couldn’t make up his mind.
More, a literal reading would not give you an accurate or clear idea of Judaism as actually practiced traditionally.
So while reading primary texts is necessary, one cannot understand them without some kind of hermeneutics.
Further, Christian mystical texts – as well as Kabbalah – use erotic and even frankly sexual imagery, and a simple literal reading might leave the impression that you are reading a kind of bizarre pornography.
The writers themselves frequently warn against literal readings, especially in Kabbalah but also in Christian mystical texts, and that is one reason why one is supposed to be over 40 – mature and adult – before one studies Kabbalah.
In short, human communication involves metaphor and analogy and symbolism, and cannot be understood the way mathematics can be.
Schopenhauer understands different religions.
From his perspective, he is correct to prefer Christianity compared to Judaism, as Christianity (by which he means the New Testament only) is more denying the will.
Whereas Judaism/Old Testament – e.g. “Be fruitful and multiply” – has many things which are perpetuating the will.
From Schopenhauer’s view, this means you want to torture more souls by incarnating them on our planet, which he describes as a prison.
“Children might seem like innocent prisoners, condemned, not to death, but to life, and as yet all unconscious of what their sentence means”
This intuition exists, particularly for those in a fortunate situation or particular happy mood.
But equally, like Schopenhauer, many can have a “dark intuition” that “this planet is a mistake” (vale of tears , etc).
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/pessimism/chapter1.html
For Schopenhauer, Christianity is superior to Judaism (although inferior to Buddhism and Hinduism).
If I’m not mistaken, she was a Croat Communist.
His views mesh well with this US based fellow (who you might know):
https://www.bing.com/search?q=stephen%20schwartz%20balkans%20muslim&pc=cosp&ptag=G6C999N2118A4FC9DFCDD3&form=CONBNT&conlogo=CT3210127
He’s a red diaper baby brat.
Well, Judaism also sees this world as a prison for the Divine sparks that need to be liberated by doing good deeds, and as a place where humans have the opportunity to refine themselves – repair their souls – by choosing good over evil. But this world is seen as fundamentally tainted by evil.
There are different attitudes one can adopt a towards a prison – one can simply try and escape, one can try and help everyone escape, or one can see the prison as a place where one can atone for ones sins and regenerate ones soul.
Prison can be mere suffering, or suffering for a purpose, and an opportunity for reflection, repentance, and ultimate growth.
The “optimism” of Judaism is that it sees the prison as an opportunity for ultimate growth and redemption, whereas “pessimistic” religions see it as a senseless prison from which only escape is desired.
The element of “will” in Judaism comes from seeing mankind as active participants in the cosmic drama of escaping the world prison, of repairing the physical world by liberating the sparks of spirituality – but “self-will”, for ones own satisfaction and ego, is condemned in Judaism.
Schopenhauer only knew of Theravada Buddhism, so did not have a good grasp of Buddhism as whole. Mahayana Buddhism, like Judaism, sees this world prison as an opportunity for growth and regeneration, and says evil is necessary for the growth of good – a Lotus grows out of a murky swamp.
Schopenhauer also thought Judaism did not believe in the afterlife, which is an egregious misunderstanding.
Yes. About 95% of people cannot control their sexual desires and be celibate – they want to have sex. SO 95% of people should get married.
No, it is better to read the New Testament according to the Church’s interpretation. New Testament was put together by the Church. The Church is still around.
Reading New Testament only, and making your own conclusions, and arguing against what the Church says about it, is like reading Marx and arguing against Marx himself (if he were around) what is written there, insisting on your own interpretation.
You should comment on Vox Day’s blog than. He holds a contrary view and is versed in religious questions (thought he is not a theologian). I also agree with @anonymous coward that stranger would not be a migrant invader.
I find my self agreeing with AP. Childlessness and lack of faith is a good litmus test for whether a person has any value to add to society or not.
If you don’t have kids nothing matters when you get to your 40+. You deteriorate and need more and more resources. You become a drain on those around you and no one gives two shits about you. In the end people who have kids will run the country and any ideas you had won’t matter.
I agree that a lot of people would leave. But in my opinion they would be wrong.
It is really hard to see any benefits for the bottom feeders in any system. Ghettos here look very bad. I was in Crimea recently anyone who lives better then the ghetto there would not benefit from moving. They would have to kill a decade learning new language, figuring out a foreign system. A decade is a long time. There is a lot one can accomplish in that time. Not to mention family ties.
Cuckchurch needs to be eradicated with inquisition. Church is the body of Christianity aka those that worship and not the pope.
Also AP is not capable of reasoned discussion not because of insults but because he argues based on wishful thinking. He makes a cute narrative in his head and then passes that on as if it is true.
First passage refers to revenge (don’t do it), not self-defense. Second says to love and pray for one’s enemies, but doe snot limit self-defense.
A good description of the Christian approach towards violence:
http://orthochristian.com/96216.html
Self-defense and defense of the weak or for those we are responsible for are good. Revenge or excessive force is bad.
As for the second question, the use of force for Christians has long been a matter of debate because, for example, Christ taught us to turn the other cheek:
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also (Matthew 5:38-39).
The question we must ask about this passage is does the Old Testament law regarding an eye for an eye relate to personal revenge, or defending ones family, faith, or homeland from attack? It in fact pertains to personal revenge. This law was actually an improvement on the usual practice of exacting many times more punishment than the original offense had inflicted on the person offended. Christ raised the bar to the next level, and said that we should not seek personal revenge at all. However, we cannot and should not turn the other cheek when the defenseless are being attacked, because it isn’t our cheek to turn.
Let’s take a look at some other statements from the Scriptures:
Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked (Psalm 81[82]:3-4)
Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow (Isaiah 1:17).
The problem is that, usually, oppressors don’t stop oppressing the weak simply because we ask them nicely to do so. More often than not, force, or at least the threat of force is necessary. So do these scriptures contradict the commands of Christ? No, they refer to defending others, not to seeking revenge.
It is often asserted that Christ never used or advocated the use of force. This is simply not true:
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables (John 2:15).
A scourge is not something used to gently influence someone—it is something used to violently beat other people, so as to inflict pain, in order to violently coerce them in some way or other. Whether He actually struck anyone, or merely threatened to, we are not told, but we do know that the money changers at least believed he would have, and left expeditiously.
Ss. Boris and Gleb are often cited by Orthodox pacifists as examples of the way Christians ought to respond to war. After their father, St. Vladimir, reposed, their brother sought to usurp the kingdom, and so plotted to kill them. They offered no resistance, because they did not wish to fight their brother, nor to see a bloody civil war. However, they were not facing an external enemy who was seeking the destruction or subjugation of their people, but their own brother, and so they chose the path of martyrdom. Their act of personal sacrifice was praiseworthy.
St. Alexander Nevsky faced a completely different situation, and Ss. Boris and Gleb actually played a role in his course of action. St. Alexander Nevsky faced an invasion from the heterodox Swedes, and so had to defend his people and his Faith.
Here is the Kontakion of St. Alexander Nevsky:
As thy kinsmen Boris and Gleb appeared to thee, bringing thee help from heaven when thou didst battle against Velgar the Swede and his warriors, so now, O blessed Alexander, come to the aid of thy kinfolk, and contend thou against those who wage war against us.
This refers to the following incident from the Life of St. Alexander Nevsky:
But there was a miraculous omen: at dawn on July 15 [the feast of St. Vladimir] the warrior Pelgui, in Baptism Philip, saw a boat, and on it were the Holy Martyrs Boris and Gleb, in royal purple attire. Boris said: “Brother Gleb, let us help our kinsman Alexander.” When Pelgui reported the vision to the prince, St Alexander commanded that no one should speak about the miracle. Emboldened by this, he urged the army to fight valiantly against the Swedes.
Had St. Alexander Nevsky decided to not resist the Swedes, it would not have been a praiseworthy act, but rather a dereliction of duty. It would not have been a higher path, it would have been a sinful path. So in the lives of these saints we see the balance between turning the other cheek, and defending one’s own. St. Alexander’s actions were praiseworthy, and Ss. Boris and Gleb’s were praiseworthy… and there is no contradiction between them because they all responded to different situations in complete accordance with the commands of Christ.
The following quote from the Russian Orthodox Church’s Social Concept Document, and the section on “War and Peace” is instructive:
When St. Cyril Equal-to-the-Apostles was sent by the Patriarch of Constantinople to preach the gospel among the Saracens, in their capital city he had to enter into a dispute about faith with Muhamaddan scholars. Among others, they asked him: “Your God is Christ. He commanded you to pray for enemies, to do good to those who hate and persecute you and to offer the other cheek to those who hit you, but what do you actually do? If anyone offends you, you sharpen your sword and go into battle and kill. Why do you not obey your Christ?” Having heard this, St. Cyril asked his fellow-polemists: “If there are two commandments written in one law, who will be its best respecter—the one who obeys only one commandment or the one who obeys both?” When the Hagerenes said that the best respecter of law is the one who obeys both commandments, the holy preacher continued: “Christ is our God Who ordered us to pray for our offenders and to do good to them. He also said that no one of us can show greater love in life than he who gives his life for his friends (Jn. 15:3). That is why we generously endure offences caused us as private people. But in company we defend one another and give our lives in battle for our neighbours, so that you, having taken our fellows prisoners, could not imprison their souls together with their bodies by forcing them into renouncing their faith and into godless deeds. Our Christ-loving soldiers protect our Holy Church with arms in their hands. They safeguard the sovereign in whose sacred person they respect the image of the rule of the Heavenly King. They safeguard their land because with its fall the home authority will inevitably fall too and the evangelical faith will be shaken. These are precious pledges for which soldiers should fight to the last. And if they give their lives in battlefield, the Church will include them in the community of the holy martyrs and call them intercessors before God.”
What is true of the defense of a nation on a big scale would also be true of the defense of one’s family on a smaller scale.
As for self-defense in a situation in which one is in danger themselves, but in which no one else is in danger, I do not believe that Scripture forbids the use of necessary force to defend yourself from a serious assault (as opposed to a personal quarrel in which there was no real danger), but it is certainly true that it is praiseworthy to not defend yourself. It is less complicated if you do not have a family that is depending on you, and more complicated if you do. All life is sacred, and we should never take the shedding of blood, lightly, however, a husband and a father has to take care of his family. As St. Paul admonished: But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel (1 Timothy 5:8). And this does not just mean that he needs to bring home a pay check, it also means that he needs to take care of them, and that includes their protection, and it also entails that he try to the best of his ability to continue to be able to provide for his family.
Lol it is completely absurd and you know it yourself.
E.g. Don’t read Marx if you want to know what Marx thought – instead just stay in ignorance and follow what is said in the Soviet Union.
How is this strawman relevant? No-one is saying Jesus argued that other defenseless (as opposed to yourself) should be allowed to be attacked – he is simply not recorded discussing this.
We are talking about whether neighbor in “love your neighbor “, could refer to illegal migrants in Europe that are arriving mainly from Africa or Middle East.
Reiner is saying neighbor does not include illegal immigrants to Europe from Syria/Africa. The reasons for his view will be because those people could be culturally/religiously/racially incompatible to Europe, have some higher proportion of rapists, be low quality human capital that would weaken society, lower average IQ, etc. (Some of these are valid points from common sense).
However, when Jesus quotes “love your neighbor “, his direct response is Love your enemies (Matthew 5:43-48 ) and that your neighbour crosses religions/nationalities (Luke 10:25-37).
The distinction Jesus is making from Old Testament “love your neighbours” – is exactly against common sense considerations Reiner is talking about.
And this is completely central for Jesus. Remember he says is one of the two commandments he thinks are the most important. .
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12%3A28-31&version=NIV
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Of course, illegal immigration policy of a modern country, should not follow the New Testament (or any religious text). But if you base your immigration policy on New Testament text, then the direction of the Pope is quite predictable.
This is “Psalms of Asaph”, supposedly transcribing the words of King David.
It’s useful Old Testament, which could be used to moderate what is missing in the New Testament and create a more practical policy.
Although look at adjoining Psalms – it requires picking from Old Testament texts very different to anything in the New Testament.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+81&version=NIV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+83&version=NIV
There is no violence against people in this text. John clearly says “he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables”.
And likewise when you cross-reference with Matthew. “He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves”
Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’[a] but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’[b]” https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+21%3A12-13&version=NIV
It is a protest involving turning over table (cross referenced), and where John adds additional “violent” fact that “coins are scattered”, while Matthew has overturning of a bench where they were selling doves.
It’s strange people are using this to claim Jesus uses violence.
Medieval history 1200 years, thousands of kilometers away.
Yes here is Jesus’s command, and indeed a very counter-intuitive and radical one even today.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOl………about a million points to start with on this attention-whore garbage.
I won’t waste time, so I’ll use just one
Considering there is zero chance a deranged f**kwit as yourself even knows what a Armenia, Gruzian, Tatar etcetra surname is , considering you don’t even speak Russian or “Ukrainian”, and know precious little about either area ( except what is on your own fantasist lowlife edits of wikipedia)…….it simply carries no credence any link or any ( invented on the spot out of thin air) that an idiot as yourself uses to make an absurd and fake point
LOL…..about 50 posts ( of garbage) and 50000 words over the LAST weekend alone on it, by yourself you idiot
As obvious to anyone with a brain…..it is precisely because I loved and was talented at mathematics and physics that I thought I would be able to become a civil engineer you idiot.
Which of your idiotics was the worst ?- links to 44 year articles from BS NYT about one of the worlds most successful project( Aswan Dam)?…or this retard “hypothesis” about University/USSR/Engineering…..or the ridiculously retarded associating of the “beauty” of a stations mosaics or whatever being the same as the construction of it!
Explain why you feel this is absurd.
The Church put together the New Testament.
What is absurd is interpreting on your own rather than according to how the Church interprets it.
Very funny how bitter you are after you mistakenly advertised that you were too dumb to become a physicist and instead did what mediocre Sovoks had to study – civil engineering.
It is because you loved it, but were not talented, that you did not become a physicist, chemist, etc. Something that very smart Soviet people studied.
Dumb people, like you, became “engineers” in that country.
Guess what country produced perhaps the worst civil engineering disaster in history?
https://www.eit.edu.au/cms/news/industry/engineering-failure-chernobyl-disaster
Maybe if dummies like you weren’t Sovok engineers this would not have happened?
Which is irrelevant when discussing violence. One can love and forgive one’s enemies and still use violence against them, to defend oneself and to defend the weak.
This would probably apply to women and children Christians but not to Muslims or criminals, for obvious reasons.
No. Quote:
“And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables (John 2:15).”
A scourge is a weapon that inflicts a lot of pain.
This is what it looks like after someone has been scourged:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Gordon%2C_scourged_back%2C_NPG%2C_1863.jpg
He used the scourge to drive out the moneylenders. Either He did violence to them, or threatened to use brutal violence.
You ignored this passage:
When St. Cyril Equal-to-the-Apostles was sent by the Patriarch of Constantinople to preach the gospel among the Saracens, in their capital city he had to enter into a dispute about faith with Muhamaddan scholars. Among others, they asked him: “Your God is Christ. He commanded you to pray for enemies, to do good to those who hate and persecute you and to offer the other cheek to those who hit you, but what do you actually do? If anyone offends you, you sharpen your sword and go into battle and kill. Why do you not obey your Christ?” Having heard this, St. Cyril asked his fellow-polemists: “If there are two commandments written in one law, who will be its best respecter—the one who obeys only one commandment or the one who obeys both?” When the Hagerenes said that the best respecter of law is the one who obeys both commandments, the holy preacher continued: “Christ is our God Who ordered us to pray for our offenders and to do good to them. He also said that no one of us can show greater love in life than he who gives his life for his friends (Jn. 15:3). That is why we generously endure offences caused us as private people. But in company we defend one another and give our lives in battle for our neighbours, so that you, having taken our fellows prisoners, could not imprison their souls together with their bodies by forcing them into renouncing their faith and into godless deeds. Our Christ-loving soldiers protect our Holy Church with arms in their hands. They safeguard the sovereign in whose sacred person they respect the image of the rule of the Heavenly King. They safeguard their land because with its fall the home authority will inevitably fall too and the evangelical faith will be shaken. These are precious pledges for which soldiers should fight to the last. And if they give their lives in battlefield, the Church will include them in the community of the holy martyrs and call them intercessors before God.”
I made 14 posts last weekend.
Sovok “engineer” can’t even count.
Sovok “engineer” showed why he had to be an “engineer” and was too dumb to study mathematics or physics.
🙂
Come this is embarrassing – you don’t know New Testament is not written in English.
Text is Greek. There is no “scourge”. The word used is Greek transcription of Latin word “flagellum”.Considering it is with chords improvised in the moment, John’s meaning is clear, since this is a thing of rope. Moreover, verb in the sentence is not whipped.
The verb in the sentence exebalen – which does not imply violence. In other parts of the the New Testament, it means “sent away”
https://books.google.com/books?id=7rFZUSeOcd0C&pg=PA107&dq=exebalen+send&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEk9zCpprkAhUlSxUIHTrMDC8Q6AEINjAC#v=onepage&q=exebalen%20send&f=false
It’s clear he has not hurt anyone or hit anyone from the verb choice, and turning over table and scattered coins are described the result of this action. And chords is an addition in John which is not in Matthew. Also strange that you imply this involved violence – like you have not actually read the New Testament or followed what Jesus is doing in the text.
Again verb exebalen – is not implying violence. This verb is used for things like “sent away”. https://biblehub.com/greek/exebalen_1544.htm
https://books.google.com/books?id=7rFZUSeOcd0C&pg=PA107&dq=exebalen+send&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEk9zCpprkAhUlSxUIHTrMDC8Q6AEINjAC#v=onepage&q=exebalen%20send&f=false
Weird claim.
Jesus applies the principle to people from a different religion. Again you need to read Luke 10:29.
Jesus says not to use violence in one’s own case (Matthew 5:38-42).
If you use quotes King David. But this is quotes from King David.
It’s strange you want to use quotes from King David, and have no effort to find support in Jesus.
It’s not “interpretation”.
It’s clearly written in the text, and designed to be so. And I’m here interested in the New Testament teaching, not the Old Testament one. (I’m interested in Old Testament too, but not for this discussion).
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As for how the church interprets the message in this context. It can dilute New Testament and Jesus, by quoting from the Old Testament.
However that is how the discussion has begun (that the church is not diluting sufficiently to be practical for society).
Here is the view of the most conservative recent Pope Ratzinger.
http://www.archivioradiovaticana.va/storico/2015/09/07/the_pope_emeritus_is_praying_for_migrants_and_refugees/en-1170080
This is Pope Ratzinger, and it’s not too different to Bergoglio’s views.
I assume you mean “always present”.
The racial caste system demands of a member of the higher race that he always be prepared to act as a master. For those members of the higher race who are not comfortable being masters, it is uncomfortable. For people like me, and probably yourself, accustomed to being in command and comfortable with it there is no problem.
The lesson is that multiracial societies, no matter how well designed, are inherently stressful.
I am not taking an exaggerated position.
I see nothing wrong with slavery, especially racial slavery in which negroes are enslaved.
My experience in the capitalist economy demonstrates to me that most people, including even highly talented people drawing very high incomes, functionally enslave themselves. Official slavery merely formalizes the matter, and I especially refuse to get upset about a lesser race with a predisposition toward narcissism being enslaved.
I’ll expand later and respond to Mr. Hack.
https://www.bible-history.com/past/flagrum.html
https://www.bible-history.com/past/flagrum9.jpg
This sketch depicts a Roman Flagrum which was designed to quickly remove the flesh from the body of a victim.
The Romans would, according to custom, scourge a condemned criminal before he was put to death. The Roman scourge, also called the “flagrum” or “flagellum” was a short whip made of two or three leather (ox-hide) thongs or ropes connected to a handle as in the sketch above.
:::::::::::::
So:
John 2:15 – And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
You have a very unique interpretation.
Jesus “sent away” people using a weapon, a scourge (flagellum), meant to inflict brutal violence.
And you claim it does not imply violence.
It is not said whether Jesus used the scourge or not. So he either inflicted physical violence upon the moneylenders, or threatened to, to chase them out. It doesn’t specify.
So we can choose Dmitry’s idiosyncratic interpretation of the the Bible that the Church created, or the Church’s own interpretation of its creation.
” Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.”
Implies self-defense. But not to take it too far.
“Sex during marriage is not ideal.” Yes, let’s just let our families and peoples die out like these strange childless wifeless “men.” As well as deny our fundamental nature and the way GOD made us and intended us.
Not sure why you think these quotes help. They are even more unrealistic, immature, unnatural and frankly, embarrassing for the people who (allegedly) said them.
I have a secretary, people who do billing, and some nurses who are sort of under me (they would not like that description) but generally I have set up a situation where I essentally work as a consultant, see patients, set my own hours within certain limits, and have neither a real boss nor any real subordinates (I deal with people “over me” every few days at most, and its a distant collegial relationship).
I bristle at the idea of being told what to do, but don’t enjoy telling others what to do either. So I don’t have to deal with either situation.
Yours is a different situation – you run a factory.
This is correct. Indeed, research has shown there is less trust in such societies and this even comes into intragroup relationships. Democratic politics are fucked up because they become about tribal turf and power, rather than competing ideas or approaches. Etc.
We disagree here. Inflexible caste systems (such as race slavery) unfairly stifle some talented people. They are also inherently prone to abuse of the enslaved.
This is true and a good point.
Looking forward.
There is nothing in Greek text about this dangerous weapon made of leather – this is your imagination.
John’s addition to story is that he made some chords as a whip (flagellum). This is all happening while in the courtyard, as it is continuous narrative. So this is improvised rapidly. And verb of the sentence has nothing to do with whipping – it is “sending away” or casting out.
There’s no “brutal violence” or “threat of brutal violence”. Anger of Jesus is against the Temple leaders, not the losers in the courtyard buying or selling animal sacrifices (this courtyard is the place for unfortunate people who are not allowed into the temple).
Verb is to “send away”, and crossreferenced action described are overturn table and chasing oxen. John adds scatters coins. While Matthew describes bench overturned where they sold doves.
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It would quite strange as well for this imaginary “brutal violence” against the weaker section of society left in the courtyards, when the temple leaders, in the temple itself, are the problem (recall in John how Jesus has a few pages earlier saved the woman who had adultery on her husband from being stoned).
Just read New Testament.
Church can moderate the message by using parts of the Old Testament – but the issue which we are discussing here is precisely that the message is not moderate enough for practical politics today.
The most conservative Pope (Ratzinger) believes the sea ” should be a bridge”.
http://www.archivioradiovaticana.va/storico/2015/09/07/the_pope_emeritus_is_praying_for_migrants_and_refugees/en-1170080
Kirill just has materialist reasons for Central Asian immigrants in Moscow – as cheap labour.
https://tj.sputniknews.ru/migration/20171026/1023714522/patriarh-kirill-priznal-potrebnost-moskvy-gastarbayterah.html
The leader of the English church?
“Think of the story of the Good Samaritan. It is NOT a story about being nice to people not like you. It is the story of the person not like you showing you what godly neighbourliness might look like: the person outside the fold of faith who reveals something of the love of God.”
https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/speaking-and-writing/speeches/archbishop-justin-welbys-deo-gloria-trust-lecture-evangelism-and
Archbishop of Canterbury: ““We must resist and turn back the worrying trends we are seeing around the world, towards seeing the movement of desperate people as more of a threat to identity and security than an opportunity to do our duty. We cannot withdraw from our long and proud history of helping the most vulnerable.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/09/archbishop-of-canterbury-justin-welby-ministers-should-reconsider-child-refugee-decision
22:51 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. 51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.
As always – read whole text.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/luke/passage/?q=luke+22:35-51
And recall the view of swords from Matthew:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A52&version=NIV
Read Corinthians 7:29-31 – and you can understand Paul’s point of view more.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7%3A29-31&version=NIV
Yes but we live after the fall now, in the biblical view. .
And Paul’s view is that sexual lust is among the things which cause wrath of God: “5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[a]”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+3%3A5-6&version=NIV
This is what the weapon was typically made of. Why would Greek text include the detail everyone new?
If I write about a car do I write “car made of metal?”
He sent them away with the use of a brutal weapon, a scourge.
Meaning is clear unless you try very hard not to make it clear.
As Orthodox website explained:
A scourge is not something used to gently influence someone—it is something used to violently beat other people, so as to inflict pain, in order to violently coerce them in some way or other. Whether He actually struck anyone, or merely threatened to, we are not told, but we do know that the money changers at least believed he would have, and left expeditiously.
I posted Orthodox intepretation of that text.
This is because Jesus, unlike his followers, was in no need of protection. He recommended his followers to defend themselves with their swords when they were travelling but He Himself did not want such protection. Indeed:
“Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? (Matthew 26:53-54).”
I already posted this stuff, why do yo repeat the questions?
I really enjoy and learn from your comments, Dmitry. But can’t agree on this one.
Nobody who is psychologically/emotionally healthy and normal thinks that there is anything wrong with sexual desire per se, given that it is deeply inherent in our nature and need not harm or betray anyone.
Even stranger and less rational is any notion that sexual desire for, and consummation of sexual desire with, a spouse is immoral “lust.”
These were odd and apparently emotionally stunted men who allegedly chose to be perpetually wireless and childless. The twisted comments by Jesus et all aren’t rendered acceptable by the passage above or anything else I’ve seen in the bible.
And it doesn’t seem that the earth or this physical mortal existence have gone away, does it? I’m sure it’s just around the corner, though, as always.
Moreover, there is evidence that early Christians believed that Jesus would return in glory soon — though this is debated — and obviously that was wrong in any usual meaning of the word “soon” then or now.
Look at the contortions that this apologist goes through to explain how Jesus, as apparently was not infrequently the case, allegedly didn’t say anything like what he seemed to say (“this generation shall not pass away until all these things have taken place” in Matthew 24:34, and even harder to explain away, Matthew 16:28 “some who stand here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom”)
https://www.thingstocome.org/whatgen.htm
Mistranslation, or our alleged misunderstanding, cannot persuasively explain away all the seemingly absurd, unnatural, or inhuman things that Jesus allegedly said. It’s amazing what a religious zealot can say with a straight face to torture the words of Jesus et al. towards their preferred implausible interpretation.
Among numerous other examples, I’ve received laughable “explanations” for Jesus telling a man who said he would gladly follow Jesus on the road as soon as he buried his recently deceased father, “let the dead bury the dead.” More contortions that don’t come close to persuading, here:
https://www.gotquestions.org/let-dead-bury-dead.html
After enough of these statements that allegedly don’t mean anything close to what a normal reading of the words suggests (in English, Greek, Latin, or Hebrew or Aramaic), one leans towards the sad conclusion that Jesus was kind of a jerk and nasty to people when it was not called for, and sometimes gave terrible or cruel advice.
Perhaps Jesus claimed that fulfillment of prophecy would be thwarted by God sending help to save him, because he wasn’t divine and had no more ability than the rest of us to be sure of demanding direct physical divine intervention.
I’m not sure. But it sure starts to look that way, even though I don’t want to reach that conclusion.
That doesn’t really seem to follow from the quote:
“Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? (Matthew 26:53-54).”
Jesus stated that if He wanted, He could easily have God send more than 12 legions of angels for him. He seemed certain he could do it easily if He wanted, but that He wouldn’t do it.
How are you arguing this?
He does not build a dangerous weapon for brutal violence with leather. It’s all continuous action He goes to the temple, and turns over tables and benches. (Just John, which is the most metaphorical and distance from the time gospels, says “made whip of ropes” – which would have to be an improvisation in courtyard).
Let’s look at 3 synoptic Gospels.
Matthew:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+21%3A10-13&version=NIV
Mark
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+11%3A15-19&version=ESV
Luke
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+19:45-46
And then John (far more removed from historical events, more metaphorical, and not favoured for reconstructing historical events)
If this brutal violence and dangerous weapon is involved, it is not in Gospels (it seems more like the imagination from watching too many American Western films). And John’s detail, is one of the only ones which does not cross reference. Finally, in John it is improvised with its material specified (rope not leather), it is created in the same moment, and it is not involved in the action verb of the sentence (which is used in the other parts of the text as “sent out”.)
Authority of Jesus in this context is from his popularity as explained in Luke.
You’re pasting about English words, which was in an medieval English translator’s choice of words, which are not in the Greek text.
And then debating about this English word.
You then claim it is made of leather, when it says it is of rope.
This is absurd.
Not only after the sword is used, immediately does he stop violence – but he heals the wound created by the violence.
You had quoted the earlier sentence isolated of context – which is the problem of not reading the whole text, but just finding single sentences. In the continuous text, Jesus is immediately stopping violence within a few paragraphs of the quote.
I’m not saying that this ascetic view is necessarily the correct point of view. Although from the opinion of people like Schopenhauer, it is.*
Ascetic holy men can have important insights – it does not mean they will be useful for the practical world (would you buy a car from a ascetic holy man, or hire one to build a bridge?).
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/religion/chapter6.html
Because even today, in India, asceticism can reach some kind of total extreme, which can appear just crazy to any common sense people e.g.:
https://youtu.be/QaCItcf2iSA?t=305
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Jesus has generally very admirable things about himself like – he is usually very consistent to his ascetic teaching. He almost always follows the same advice he tells his followers.
And it is unusually impressive because his own views are so ascetic and he results in losing his life by stubbornly teaching them.
Possibly there is an exception is in this text you quote – as it is clear from his character that Jesus would not immediately follow someone else (or follow anyone else), although he says to others to immediately follow him.
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Another exception is that Jesus advises that meek/quiet people, who do not have esteem, will inherit the world. But he himself enjoys vast popularity and is a hero with the wider public, at the time of his triumphal entry to Jerusalem .(And then after his death his popularity “goes viral”).*
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* Borges, follows this contradiction in funny way in “Three Versions of Judas” (to make the greatest sacrifice Jesus should have to choose to be the most hated person, not the most popular). https://southerncrossreview.org/49/borges-judas-eng.htm
So here you are, claiming to know more about what the Bible says, than does the very Church that constructed the Bible.
That’s not what the Bible says.
And chases people away. Is it common for people to get chased out and to lose their coins and stuff they were selling, unless they are threatened in some way? Go to a market and chase away sellers, forcing them to lose leave their stuff behind. Will they do so unless they fear violence?
No, made a scourge of ropes.
You yourself earlier wrote the word “flagellum.”
Now you change it to whip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scourge
A scourge is a whip or lash, especially a multi-thong type, used to inflict severe corporal punishment or self-mortification. It is usually made of leather.
A scourge (Latin: flagrum; diminutive: flagellum) typically consists of several thongs fastened to a handle.
Try to translate properly.
Church included it for a reason.
Reread our discussion. Jesus did not want violence done to protect himself (Jesus). But he recommended his followers take a sword when they travel, presumably to protect themselves.
“Slavery is not optimal, but your worshipping negroes and incorrectly assuming they deserve the same rights and treatment as civilized peoples is far worse.”
Slavery is evil, immoral, and unjust. Those who engaged in this practice are barbaric and cruel. Supporting this institution puts you in the extreme minority.
This random assertion.
Church leaders are interpreting New Testament quotes as I have, and this is how the discussion began.
It doesn’t say chase out. From context of its other usage in the text, verb can be “cast out” or “sent out”.
If you know the Bible – Jesus makes a lot of people do things, never with “threat of brutal violence”.
In this case, according Luke, his power is from his popularity with the people in Jerusalem.
You copy and paste from Wikipedia, where it describes this as “diminutive”of the Latin word whip.
So – “little whip”, maybe “little scourge”.
John specifies the material as “rope” – and you claim it is leather.
Incident happens in a single scene as well.
You mean John included it for a reason? Yes, like a catch of 153 fish from the Sea of Galilee. He adds various extra things which are not in the synoptic Gospels. John also has changes even the order of the story (some of these changes to the original – e.g. John changing order of Jesus to catch fish in the Sea of Galilee after his resurrection).
However, in this quote John does not include anything about violence or threat of violence (or dangerous weapons made of leather). Luke/Mark/Matthew does not have anything about whips of rope when they describe the event.
You quote about 2 swords. All you have to do is read a few more paragraphs, and Jesus is not just stopping violence, but immediately healing outcome of violence. It’s an example of why it’s useful to read the New Testament texts all the way, and not just a small quote.
Church says self-defense and defneding the weak is okay.
You disagree, based on personal interpretation of the Bible. The same Bible created by the very Church whose interpretation of the Bible you disagree with.
They are cast out by a person wielding a scourge who knocks over their tables and spills their coins. Presumably they lost their money and their stuff. Priests also cast out demons. It is not a friendly process.
It seems to have referred to any scourge, nit just a little one.
Attila the Hun was referred to as Flagellum Dei or “Scourge of God”, not “Little Scourge of God”:
https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-middle-east/attila
It was a brutal instrument, wielded by Jesus.
Everything in the Bible was included by the Church, acting with the Holy Spirit.
This has already been explained to you 4 (?) times.
Jesus recommended that his followers protect themselves. But He did not want their protection. This is not complicated.
Come on your arguments are some combination of stubborn repetition, muddling together discussions and not reading the response.
The weirdest thing is the American redneck Jesus, which is the opposite of interpretations of Church which can be read, of professional biblical scholars who write commentaries, and anyone who reads the text as a whole (rather than a quote from Wikipedia).
Yes by quoting King David, which is very far from the New Testament.
As for New Testament passages, I’ve actually read theological interpretations of these (unlike I’m sure, yourself). And they are not disagreeing.
But that’s beside the point – because if you read them yourself and try to understand the meaning, rather than forcing your own desires on them, you would have no problem understanding it.
A whip made of rope, improvised in the moment. It’s not a dangerous weapon of leather you are talking about – the text specifies its material is rope.
Verb in sentence is sent out the people.
Finally, this is an addition of John, like so many (he even reverses order of many events). It’s not in the synoptic Gospels.
Lol – it’s like a satire of the American redneck interpretation of the Bible. Perhaps he also had an M-16.
The detail is included by John. It’s not included the other Gospels.
This is not in the text about protecting themselves at all. You are inferring from a vague, and regarded as ambiguous, comment about two swords. Multiple other references Jesus says what to do with swords. And in this one, he shows it a few paragraphs later.
Interpretation by the Church itself is what matters, not weird claims by various “biblical scholars.”
http://orthochristian.com/96216.html
Luke 22:35-38:
And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
A scourge made of cords. Remember the Latin word that was used.
Also:
“And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables” (John 2:15).
So drove them out. Not sent them out.
You change your story. You said cast out before.
So because you don’t like what John says you think it’s less important somehow.
I’m sorry you feel that the Bible is a satire.
This makes it no less valid.
This has already been explained to you 4 (?) times.
So for the 5th (?) time. Jesus recommended that his followers defend themselves. Otherwise why tell them to buy swords? For a decoration? But he did not want them to buy many swords. This strongly implies he was against any aggression.
But he, himself, refused to be defended by swords.
So defend yourself with swords – good, do it. Defend me with swords – not good, don’t do it.
Understand?
What “interpretation” are you talking about?
Have you read any commentaries which are used by different churches? Again New Testament, not of Old Testament quotes of King David, etc, but of Jesus in the New Testament.
I have Chrysostom about John and Matthew, for example. And he says on the paragraph we were discussing above in Matthew, that we are ordered to accept being hit by our enemies, and be disrobed by them, and do nothing in return.
In order words, Chrysostom can also read the text.
So I would say that we should just read the text, and not rely on interpretations. However, as you are saying we should only follow other peoples’ interpretation – then we can say which is more notable: Chrysostom’s interpretation of Matthew or AP’s?
“This is not in the text about protecting themselves at all. You are inferring from a vague, and regarded as ambiguous, comment about two swords. Multiple other references Jesus says what to do with swords. And in this one, he shows it a few paragraphs later.”
Theophylact says in his commentary of this paragraph: “You will suffer from hunger, thirst, and tribulations. Jesus indicated this by using words about a bag, a pouch and a sword. Be strong as you have a hunger and need food, which is indicated by “bag”, and be courageous, as you fall into many dangers, as indicated by the word “sword”. He says this, of course, not so that they carry swords with them”
Again, the text is not written in English. I explained this before.
Verb in the text can be translated to “cast out”, “sent out” – it is a debate for translators, who discuss this in books by university publishers. You have to look at how a verb is used in Gospels. Here, for exorcisms, and also for sent out – across different Gospels.
As said before, the text is not written in English.
Verb used in the Gospels in the context of casting out spirits and also of sending people away. So it is a translator’s choice. “Cast out”, “sent out”, “drove out” – this is a translator’s choice.
The fact it is not in the other Gospels – indicates it is not an important detail.
Why does Chrysostom not discuss anything about “whip of rope” when he comments on this text?
Attempt to indicate Jesus is violent, and as a positive, rather than negative. It’s like a scene from South Park.
How was it explained? With an actual argument please.
Theophylact says it is not intended to mean actually carrying swords.
So we should follow AP’s interpretation rather than Theophylact?
I will say actually, it is neither. “You are inferring from a vague, and regarded as ambiguous, comment about two swords.” Just read the whole New Testament and adsorb its message, rather than obsessing on an ambiguous comment.
In the first centuries of Christianity, war was considered a sin, and being a soldier of any kind unacceptable for a Christian, by the Church Fathers.
Gradually, war was permitted, but still considered spiritually defiling and requiring special penitential practices.
Only very late did war for just causes come to be considered holy.
Celibacy was also considered the ideal for everyone in early Christianity, very clearly stated by numerous writers.
I studied Christianity when I considered becoming a Christian.
Judaism is very anti war and anti violence, but war is considered acceptable and even laudable under certain conditions, generally a very narrow range of conditions involving self defense, defense of the weak or the righteous, the Holy land – creating a one-time stable base for the practice and ultimate dissemination of spiritual values in a specific and limited land area (not world conquest or empire), etc.
The Psalms were the main liturgical practice in the monasteries, and were interpreted allegorically, as they are in Judaism – and not as supplying a counterweight to the extreme early Christian rejection of violence.
There are biblical sources that there were some soldiers who were Christians. Then there seems to be strong evidence that Marcus Aurelius had several Christian soldiers in his legions in present day Austria. And after that there’s strong evidence that the number of Christians in the military kept growing (as it did elsewhere). Diocletian was unsure of his legions’ loyalty, because of the very large number of Christians in their ranks, so he had to purge the military before starting his persecution of Christians. And then we have already arrived at the age Constantine the Great.
Regarding celibacy, there seems to be strong evidence that the vast majority of Christians weren’t celibate at all, to the contrary, they probably to a large extent bred their way to majority. So, they had both higher birthrates and lower mortality rates than Pagans. Of course conversions were another major factor, but it was probably similar to the role of immigration in America’s population growth, so not the decisive factor.
Here’s a discussion of the question of Christians in the military:
https://gatesofnineveh.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/christians-in-the-roman-army-countering-the-pacifist-narrative/
On the other hand, excessive universalism is but one possible problem. During biblical times, or for example the 1930s-40s, excessive clannishness and nationalism, respectively, were more important problems. It’s possible that long term they are the most important problems. Probably we need some universalism to temper the pull of our clannish/nationalistic/nepotistic desires.
When I wrote how the Church behaved similarly to how the rest of society, I meant the organization/leadership (i.e. priests, bishops, cardinals, pope etc.) vs. laity. The Church always presented a somewhat different perspective (usually, probably, better, though maybe others will prove otherwise), but was always close enough to the rest.
Anyway, the New Testament always contained lots of things (like one of Paul’s epistles admonishing slaves to obey their masters), so it could be used to support many views.
I vaguely remember one of Paul’s epistles (after some searching, I now believe maybe the Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, though I’ve been lazy to search the exact place) warning about “bad apples” among Christians, who should be kept separate from the rest. In other words, it is exactly against the kind of #RefugeesWelcome unlimited altruism, which is being propagated by Bergoglio. Bergoglio might have been elected in an unlawful manner (I think a Swiss and maybe a Belgian cardinal have publicly admitted to talking about who to elect before, which is against the rules; they implied many other cardinals were involved), but anyway, he’s not being generous with his own money, so it’s historically not typical Christian POV what he’s propagating. Basically we have a pretty idiosyncratic interpretation these days, far different from the historical norm.
I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration, most historians of late antiquity think that the Roman army was majority pagan until well into the 4th century. There certainly were Christian soldiers (though nothing like the legendary Thebaean Legion), but I don’t think on such a scale that Diocletian feared an uprising or something of the sort by them…for him it was not least a genuinely religious issue, Christians with their refusal of sacrifice endangered the favour of the gods for the Roman empire.
AaronB is over-generalizing once again, but imo he’s not totally wrong, there really was some controversy among Christians in the first few centuries whether the military profession was compatible with being a Christian (and pagans like Celsus accused the Christians of undermining the security of the empire by their refusal to serve in the legions). But on the other hand, there’s nothing explicitly anti-military in the gospels, e.g. John the Baptist in Luke 3,4 merely told the soldiers not to extort money, he didn’t ask them to give up their profession, similarly with the Roman centurion in Matthew 8 whose servant Jesus healed, or the centurion Cornelius in Acts 10…no indication that they stopped being soldiers.
Sure, unbridled nationalisn can be extremely dangerous, there may not always be sufficient awareness of that fact among nationalists.
But on the other hand, the “solution” which most Westerners today seem to be okay with and which the church is actively promoting, that is open borderism and mass immigration with universal mixing and eventual dissolution of all ethnic identities as the end goal seems pretty dystopian to me as well (also unlikely to work like its proponents imagine it).
And tbh I don’t care much about being balanced and reasonable anymore.
Christians and most Western normies would counter your “rapefugee” criticism with “You always have to consider the individual”.
And sure, even many “refugees” probably don’t mean us intentional harm, may even be somewhat decent people individually. It’s just that collectively they’ll destroy Europe as we know it (but then what is for eternity? Why care about nations and ethnicities anyway?).
Your argument only works if you argue that some groups may be inherently problematic, because of their “culture” or their genetics (e.g. black Africans are more prone to violence because they have low impulse control or something of the sort). But that is totally at odds with the antiracist egalitarianism of Western societies today, which is shared and promoted by the church.
You are probably correct as to actual facts and what people did, but this just means they weren’t living up to the ideals of Christianity as it was understood at the time.
Early Christian writers were pretty clear about soldiering and celibacy.
I think there is a good case to be made that Christianity was too extreme in its anti-world attitude. Religion by definition must be anti-world, but one can see this world as having a relative purpose in a higher context, even if it has no ultimate purpose in and of itself.
The Jewish support for marriage and children, is not world affirming – its not because this world is so excellent and living in it is worthwhile in and of itself. Rather, souls descending to this earth hasten the Redemption – a time when this world will be destroyed and renewed in a different form.
Likewise, the Jewish support for limited violence is not support for war or even self defense in and of itself – but so that higher values will survive and spread, and justice prevail.
In Judaism, even evil had to be created – to allow us to choose good. It may have instrumental value only, but it has its part to play.
Generally, there is an inner and outer aspect to everything – and if your philosophy focuses too strongly on one side, you have probably gone astray and are setting yourself up for a destructive backlash.
That is why I believe Christianity’s extreme other-worldliness eventually became extreme this-worldliness, in the modern period. This oscillating between extremes, which may define European history, may derive from Christianity.
The correct position is that this world has instrumental value in the context of a higher world – this way, both sides of the coin are given their due. And both aspects of a situation always have some validity and some time to play. One aspect may be more dominant and important, but the trick is to figure out the role of its opposite.
I don’t disagree here, but imagine just 10 or even 5% of the soldiers suddenly turning on their comrades – it’d have quite an impact, especially because it’s unexpected. Also, 5% of all Roman soldiers is already a very large number.
On the other hand, there was some controversy about the Scripture, too. Or about the trinity, or the divine nature of Christ. Pretty much everything we now take for granted about Christianity, especially the Bible itself, which wasn’t fixed until much later. (The Latin translation Vulgata was not really fixed until the Reformation, iirc.)
So it doesn’t say much about whether being a soldier is really compatible with Christianity or not. Probably there were lots of – now extinct – sects or parishes which totally forbade their members to serve in the military, but many (most?) of them didn’t, and clearly later Christianity as we know it is descended from those movements.
Regarding the Pagans accusing Christians, it’s very likely that they were exaggerating, and that a lot of the phenomenon (i.e. Christians less likely to join the military) was due to the military being at least implicitly (and often explicitly) Pagan. In other words, even those who had a problem with serving in the military, were more concerned about serving a Pagan emperor (and I think soldiers were often required to participate in some Pagan ceremonies) than about being a soldier as such.
I don’t think we know very much about what most Christians thought about the issues, so I don’t think we can say with any confidence what those ideals were.
The Bible certainly mentions Christian soldiers (who continued to serve), though of course the Bible wasn’t yet a fixed set of holy books as it is today, so maybe some Christians used a different set of those.
Any individual who is not fleeing to save his life, or tries to do “refuge-shopping” (i.e. tries to get from Turkey to Germany “in the hope of a better life”), and is deliberately breaking our laws in order to get into our countries, is essentially
only to “have a better life” (which is true of most criminals – they only mug or rob banks to “have a better life”), so basically for selfish reasons
wants to get social help or access to social housing etc. (the vast majority doesn’t even work, and is unlikely to want to work)
How are they distinguishable from a horde of thieves trying to get our property? They certainly don’t have mercy on us, they just want to get what is ours, irrespective of our interests (and more importantly, the interests of our posterity).
The other point, which I think I didn’t mention above, is that it might be Christian to have mercy on anyone, even on criminals. However, you can only donate your own money, risk your own life, etc. Merkel and the Gutmenschen are forcing the rest of us to give our tax money, to diminish our living space, to risk our own lives (or that of our children), etc.
For example, a couple Syrians beat up a German boy: Merkel’s fake “charity” was not charity at all, because she put the German boy into that situation. So Merkel gave that which was not hers in the first place: that’s not Christian charity at all. Even Christian parents accepting a male refugee into their house: do they even have the right to risk the lives of their own children? (While you always have to consider the individual, but here, where it’s about the safety of your children, you have also to consider the statistical risks. You are also risking other people’s lives, for example children living in the neighborhood.)
A third point is that, of course, you shouldn’t do that publicly: if you want to help the refugees, you shouldn’t signal publicly about how much you keep helping them.
In short: virtue signaling might superficially resemble Christian virtue, but it’s almost the diametric opposite.
Yeah, but as the example of the Nazis shows, overshooting could have the opposite of the intended effect. So unless you have some compelling reason, you should try to be a bit universalistic, too.
I don’t disagree, as I wrote above unrestrained nationalism can be extremely dangerous, the amoral attitudes of quite a few nationalists are pretty repellent imo.
However, what I believe or don’t is pretty much irrelevant, it’s not like I have any political influence or will ever have any, I have resigned myself to being mostly just an observer. imo on present trends the outcome will be catastrophic in any case, because the establishment in Western Europe (or at least in Germany) is completely committed to their open borders project and incapable of compromise. So maybe there will eventually be a militant counter-movement of extreme particularism, a genuine new fascism. I’m not looking forward to that either. But I don’t think the immigration/asylum issue can be resolved by political dialogue anymore, too much has happened and the polarization between genuinely irreconcilable world views is too deep.
From the perspective of Jesus (although not everyday people’s view), this is just complete nonsense.
It might be possible to make a distinction that Jesus implies that he commands only that you (yourself personally) are ordered to accept being hit by our enemies, and be disrobed by them, and do nothing in return.
But if everyone, or the large proportion of people would follow commands of Jesus (and not just according to “my interpretation”, but said meaning repeated by commentaries of the text written church fathers – e.g. Chrysostom), final result will be similar.
It’s also clear e.g. Merkel has not sacrificed herself. She lives in luxury house. She eats expensive meals.
In this situation it’s a case of immoral people (who did not want to sacrifice their “tax money, living space and lives”) vs. immoral people (Merkel who lives in luxury house, eats expensive meals, etc).
–
“12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
It’s a similar question as above, whether children would be viewed as something which belongs to you or not.
Always Jesus commands to the crowd, that they leave their family and children (e.g. Luke 14:25-27) if they will be his follower. He says you cannot be his follower, if you cannot leave your parents, children, etc.
At the same time, he considered that children are the most spiritually enlightened people (Matthew 18:1-4).
You write as if it is some issue of interpretation. It is not, because the text is so clear about Jesus’s views on topics to do with violence. It is more direct and repeated even than his views on sex.
Even if e.g. latter views on sex could have some misinterpretation of detail (for example, in the case of Origen), nobody can misunderstand the general theme.
They are similar to Rigveda – well psalms can be more poetic, which can be on a level with Homer even -, but the purpose or use of the text seems to be very similar.
While you still seem to struggle with the difference between the concepts of “turning the other cheek” vs. “turning other people’s cheeks,” at least maybe you now have understood that people who break our laws to our detriment but their benefit are not “neighbors” in the biblical sense of the word.