Protect your women, not our democracy. – Polish volleyball fans to German colleagues.
From the Polish media we learn that German authorities ordered the destruction of CCTV evidence of the Cologne attacks.
We know that the Polish media cannot be trusted because Law and Justice (PiS) has been busy stacking the state media overseeing with its own cronies. To be sure the previous pro-EU leftist government had done the exact same, but that is okay because it was done in pursuit of the goals of social justice. As exemplified by, say, the German and Swedish media, which have been ordered at the highest levels to avoid reporting on minor political issues, such as the mass rape of their own women by refugees. What refugees? What rape? What Turkish sponsorship of ISIS? Hey, look over there – isn’t Julian Assange a chauvinist pig for not wearing a condom during consensual sex?
Swedish police decide not to investigate Swedish police over mass sexual assult by migrants https://t.co/eCGkdHIdbc #cologneattacks
— WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) January 18, 2016
This has nothing to do with corruption adn authoritarianism because Germany is 12th and Sweden is 5th on the world’s press freedom index according to Reporters Without Borders. The RSF is a very respectable Western NGO, almost as respectable as Freedom House even, and their rankings are completely true and objective. If you disagree you are uninformed at best or more likely some kind of conspiracy theorist or pro-Russian troll.
Speaking of whom, this is nothing more or less than a full-fledged Putinization of Poland. We know this is true – and bad, of course – because EU Parliament Chief Martin Schulz says so. Schulz is a high school dropout who, according to Haarez, believes that “the new Germany exists only in order to ensure the existence of the State of Israel and the Jewish people.” In other words, he is a glowing representative of the European political class and everything he says should be taken at face value.
Moreover, we learn from Anne “Putin Stole My Wallet” Applebaum that pro-Russian “trolls” are in Poland now working for the nationalist Right.
pro-Russian trolls/activists in Poland now openly working for the nationalist Right https://t.co/9cme2zmoYA
— Anne Applebaum (@anneapplebaum) December 19, 2015
Unfortunately, it has long been established that going by Anne Applebaum’s definitions, her husband Radek Sikorski is one such troll, having tired of giving the Americans free blowjobs. (Though presumably purely metaphorical, one can hardly fault him for his imaginative phrasing, given his domestic circumstances).
So next time some "Kremlin troll" says Europeans are American whores… bear in mind that @sikorskiradek agrees. 😉 http://t.co/ayWjVonaiy
— Anatoly Karlin (@powerfultakes) June 23, 2014
Of course Radek Sikorski is also infamous as a hawkish hardliner on Russia amongst Civic Platform, via his connections to the Atlanticist neocon crowd, to say nothing of the PiS nationalists who are governing Poland now. The idea that Russia purposefully orchestrated the 2010 Smolensk crash that wiped out half the Polish government is taken as conventional wisdom amongst its ranks.
So in fact pro-Putin Russia trolls are supporting the most anti-Russian elements of the Polish political spectrum. And if US intelligence services are to be believed, financing them. We know that this is credible because the US is above that kind of thing itself and the idea that any civilized democratic country would finance political and media forces that promote its interests is utterly proposterous that only a pro-Russian troll could believe in. Though as we established above, the Polish nationalist recipients of Russian support and financing are themselves pro-Russian trolls.
Although as Anne Applebaum sardonically noted, the Russian press “worries” about the “Putinization” of Poland.
Russian press worries about the "Putinization" of Poland. I am not making this up https://t.co/8v20t6O8jk
— Anne Applebaum (@anneapplebaum) January 15, 2016
So in other words, this makes the Putin-controlled media the sole group who are… not pro-Russian trolls?? Frankly it’s well nigh impossible to figure out who’s trolling who by this point.
In case this isn’t obvious yet, unwrapping the logical loops around this zrada/peremoga conundrum (Poland version) is an exercise in futility, because there is no logic behind it. Amongst a clique that includes “thinkers” who blame Putin personally for the theft of their wallets and journalists who compare Russia to Mordor things could hardly be otherwise.
In reality, things are rather more prosaic.
(1) Russians by and large don’t care for Polish nationalists, but considering that most of their energies are going to be expended bickering with the EU, there is no reason not to passively support them.
(2) Even nationalist Poles realize that the biggest imminent threat to Poland is not Russian tanks advancing on Warsaw or even a return to dictatorship (i.e. a right-wing government dismantling the “adminstrative resource” that the previous left-wing government had built up) but the waves of Third World immigrants the likes of Merkel and Schulz are determined to enrich Europe with.
Poland has been known as the biggest ass kissing country in the world. They kiss America’s ass, Germany’s ass. On PUA websites and videos, Warsaw and other Polish cities are known as the place to go if you want to get a same day lay after approaching random girls in the plaza.
What is going on in Poland is a counter reaction perhaps to them getting tired of their ass kissing reputation rather than a protest completely about taking in refugees.
Hahaha, sure you will get laid one day by a random Polish girl – provided that she will be able to locate your tiny c**k 😉 Muricans & other Westerners, you know nothing about our country, your ignorance is overwhelming – and we have enough. We have enough of your warmongering, too. And your propaganda – we’re not taken in, many (if not the most) of us support President Assad and his struggle against invasion of terrorists. Many Poles these days would rather see our country cooperating with Iran than with you, ignorants – well, Iran is a muslim state but at least we share some moral values. Plus we no longer believe in anti-Iran hysteria
Was the “Polish blowjob to America” a reference to their sending their soldiers to Iraq or what?
I can’t imagine Poland ever having cordial relations with Russia, so if they piss off the EU/Americans I really don’t know where they’ll turn. A new pact with Hungary/Czechia maybe.
I dearly loved Tolstoy’s passages on Polish lickspittling in War and Peace.
Also Dmitri’s drunken fight with the Polish gentlemen in Dostoevsky’s Karamazov Brothers. Maybe Glossy can quote them, I’m too lazy.
According to Polish media, Germany is reacting because it is upset about the new Polish government putting an end to the previous government’s corrupt deals that favored Germany. Typical article:
http://wpolityce.pl/polityka/276556-znamy-ekonomiczne-powody-powyborczej-paniki-w-berlinie-wedlug-global-financial-integrity-za-granice-wycieka-az-5-procent-polskiego-pkb-a-najwiecej-kradna-niemieckie-koncerny
Germany and the western EU are also perceived as being much too soft on Russia, in essence not much different than France and the UK in 1939 in terms of the German menace.
There is collusion between Russia and Poland’s far right (Anne Applebaum is correct) but it involves the marginal openly fascist far right, not Poland’s new ruling party which is very anti-Russian. Most Poles haven’t even heard of these guys:
http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/06/polish-fascists-are-joining-pro-russian.html
Sikorski never said anything about any blow job.
What he said was “łaska”, which means favor, but this was interpreted by someone or rather on Twitter as “laska”, which literally means cane or stick, but is slang for a blowjob.
So what he said was that Poland was doing America a favor, which makes perfect sense in the context that it was used on the tape, but the blowjob meme took off in the western media, and has been repeated so many times that its now taken as fact.
I’d say your analysis is pretty accurate. We do have a few Putin-admiring right wingers, but they’re mostly fringe – Korwin supporters, nowhere near the current ruling party. We do have a lot of people tired of kissing the Westerners’ asses, though.
I wonder how popular The Donald is here.
What’s your opinion of Russian-Turkish relations to be like in this year?
Btw, Europeans fully deserve the fucking wog immigrants now. 2000 years ago they were sending rapist vikings to the meditteranean. They should also be raped by wogs in return.
The vikings were more brutal than ISIS and had non-institutionalized slavery. They enslaved white slavic woman, rape them in the vaginal, oral, anal areas and after cleaning them up sell them to rich fat wogs in Meditteranean area.
The descendants of the Vikings are today’s Swede etc. Cuck-Muck-Fuck people.
They deserve to be punished for the sins of their ancestors.
Well, they look almost the same.
I’m guessing Onur practices Mahometanism.
Viking raids ended about 700 years after the Mediterranean was finally scourged of Mahometan slavers and pirates. It’s also likely that a major impetus for the Viking raids was the exploding Mahometan slave-trade (Byzantium had transferred to Serfdom in late antiquity).
Nice try diverting the subject though.
http://www.avalanchepress.com/PolishExodus.php
Well put, Anatolyi. I’d say that a lot of SJ people in Poland and abroad live nowadays in alternative reality. I have friends who even participate in KOD and who are genuinely believing that they are fighting against nascent dictatorship. When I told them (and provide links) to stories about how corrupt Polish institutions are, they simply do not believe in that. Government spying on journalists, their families and probably also on opposition? Come on, that’s just PIS propaganda. People spending 11 years in psychiatric institution, because they stomped on feet of some important local nabab? That’s urban legend. A guy being three years in arrest without any proof he is guilty and without a trial? Well, this is just a single case.
I am not a big fan of current government (they are fervent catholics, I am atheist) but really, the current level of hysteria against them disgusts me.
You are idiot, incapable of thought that Poland may want to pursue our own interests and vision.
It’s well known that Dostoevsky was polonophobe. Probably came from Siberia, where he met several Polish exiles, who were making fun of him. One of them wrote that Dostoevsky said, when he first met him “we, the nobles” and the Polish guy replied “there is no nobles here, just exiles”, which reportedly deeply offended Dostoevsky. The same Polish exile reported that Dostoevsky suspected Polish heritage in himself, which make him even more hypersensitive to Poles.
Dostoevskij was of Lithuanian descent, if I don’t get wrong. And while I can without any doubts agree with you that his novels are full of Poles depicted in some negative way, still I believe he was more a “Cathophobe” than a mere Polonophobe (think, for instance, of the Great Inquisitor dreamed by Ivan Karamazov).
Well done, you get a cookie.
Didn’t Poles of his time claim Lithuania because it was part of the PLC, the previous large Polish state?
Only an idiot would take PUA sites seriously. In short, you’re a fucking idiot.
It is too late for that.
Since joining the European Union, Poland has to pursue European interests and vision.
Your post proves once again that you Turks belong with the Islamic world as you display all the negative characteristics attributed to the people of that unfortunate religion. You are rude, hateful, vengeful and hypocritical.
There were no Vikings 2000 years ago and the ancestors of the Europeans may have sinned in the past, although I doubt that they did so against their own moral values and contrarily to the spirit of their day. The Turks did the same much more recently and they live on land occupied through terror.
I don’t agree with your view that institutionalised slavery is any better than non-institutionalised, provided that you know the meanings of these terms.
Your mental health issues have previously been mentionned on this site, I notice that many of your coreligionists, you have issues with your sexuality: an ill focus on all things anal and the incapability of handling women in any other way than sadistically. What you described seems to be a fantasy of yours and it has been and still is implemented by your brethren, think of the Yazidis, think of impalement etc.
I will answer your question with a wish: That your Sultan continues acting as he always has and as you just did and that this will lead to a civil war and breakup of that cancer of a country, nationhood for the Kurds and Alevis and return of Constantinople and the Straits to whom it rightly belongs. You too deserve to be punished for the sins of your ancestors.
Turks are fat wogs too.
A special kind of insanity to imply that Poland has suddenly gone pro-Russian.
Yeah, Poland prostitutes itself to the West and it’s pathetic. But Poles are congenitally anti-Russian, so much so that they will “go bitch” for the U.S. and West. Sad to see, such a beautiful Christisn culture that will be dismantled by the West and replaced with multicultural and anti-Christian values. But hey, at least they’ll get their land used for U.S. missile defense weaponry so they can be somebody.
Btw, Russia’s successful campaign in Syria so far (it’s entering end game) is causing angina among the neo-cons, like Michael Ledeen, who predicted (wished) Russian failure there. While all the neo-cons were predicting failure, the guys with serious military backgrounds, on Col. Patrick Lang’s blog, were predicting success. http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/
I guess so, but I believe that, as already correctly pointed out, Dostoevskij was unpopular among Poles not because of his Lithuanian ancestry, but because he was a Polonophobe and kept on introducing horrible Poles in his novels (which, btw, I find the greatest ever written).
Interestingly enough, and maybe IT, in Dosto’s “Crime and Punishment” he put this strange Svidrigajlov, whose name is clearly Lithuanian (from Grand Duke Svitrygaila-Boleslaw), who seems at first a totally negative character, but who reveals himself later a much more complex personality and ends up being one of the key-figures in Raskolnikov’s repentance.
I realize you are probably trolling, but such a claim deserves a repetition of some numbers, in order to compare “Christian values” and the multicultural nature of Poland and Russia:
Multicuturalism:
Poland: 97.7% Polish (98.6% European); less than .5% Muslim. Part of the EU, “officially” 2% Muslim, probably around 5% Muslim
Russia: 81% Russian (82% Slavic); not including millions of migrants coming in under Putin’s watch, 11% Muslim; part of the Eurasian Customs Union, which is about 20% Muslim
Christian Values:
% of people who never go to church (2008):
Russia: 30%-40% (same as Sweden and Germany)
Poland: <10%
Percentage of adults of reproductive age living together unmarried:
Russia: 9%
Poland: 4%
Adult HIV prevalence (2011, according to WHO):
Russia: 1.1%
Poland: .1%
% of pregnancies that end in abortion:
Russia (2014): 29.3%
Poland (2012): 1.95%
Divorce rate (2011-2010):
Russia: 51%
Poland: 27%
Homicide rate (murder is a sin, after all):
Russia (2012): 9.2
Poland (2011): 1.2
Poland is probably the world champion in terms of not being multicultural and in terms of adhering to Christian values. This, in spite of it having been an EU member since 2004.
Anyone believing that joining with Russia rather than moving towards the EU would preserve Christian values or would save a country from multiculturalism is unaware of some facts.
Shouldn’t that be a, “wish I was fucking” idiot?
What a polandball title!
Dostoevsky’s family originated as minor nobility in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, i.e. in present-day Belarus. Most likely, he was of Orthodox Slav (Belarusian) ancestry, but the possibility of Polish and (Baltic) Lithuanian ancestry is high. That area was very ethnically mixed, and the traditional Lithuanian nobility was both Slavic and (ethnic) Lithuanian in origin.
Somebody above points out D’s hatred of Catholicism. This is correct, and his anti-Polish stance is largely based on that: Poles were Slavs who insisted on staying Catholic, which irritated him no end. But in general, he was a screwed-up guy with a bagload of prejudices (against Jews, Germans, and basically anyone who wasn’t an Orthodox Slav). He just happened to be a literary genius at the same time.
One thing which is interesting is that the Russian negative stereotype of Poles is of arrogant schemers, obsessed with social position and rank. This is the complete opposite of the American stereotype of Poles as crude peasants.
Because Russia was about as full of peasants as Poland, the American stereotype would make little sense in Russia. Also, Russia owned a piece of Poland and so had contact with all types of Poles. America, in contrast, tended to just get Poland’s peasants (exiled Polish nobles tended to move to France and London, not the USA).
Good work, Anatoly! BTW, how should we categorize this piece here? As Pole-splaining, perhaps? 😉
You seem to have a strange obsession with HIV. Is there something you can’t bring yourself to tell us?
This is the complete opposite of the American stereotype of Poles as crude peasants.
I am not sure where you get this stereotype.
From personal observation I can tell you that in the 2nd half of the 20th Century, ordinary Americans thought of Polish-Americans as “our” kind of people; hard-working, trustworthy, religious, dependable, etc.
That was the result of a gradual transformation. Polish immigrants in the 19th and early 20th centuries got the “dumb Polack” stereotype attached to them. Eventually, just like their “white ethnic” counterparts (Italians, Irish, etc.), they assimilated and came to be seen as “normal Americans.”
But as late as the 1970s (when I was growing up), one still heard “Polack” jokes every now and then. Two things which made a big difference in how Poles were perceived were Pope John Paul II, and the Solidarity movement and its eventual success.
Anecdotally, I remember hearing a speech by Chicago politician Dan Rostenkowski. He was as corrupt as Chicago politicians tend to be, so maybe one shouldn’t take him as an example, but he said that when he was young he felt ashamed to be Polish-American and even considered changing his name. However, after the success of Poland in throwing off communism, he how felt proud to be Polish. (Or words to that effect.)
On PUA websites and videos, Warsaw and other Polish cities are known as the place to go if you want to get a same day lay after approaching random girls in the plaza.
And you believed them? And of all the cities in Central/Eastern Europe where a PUA is least likely to get lucky Warsaw would probably be top of the list.
Sorry, but were you drunk when you wrote this? I mean I agree with quite a lot of it (e.g. German journalists are mostly beyond contempt, their whining about the justified “Lügenpresse” accusation is pathetic)…but seems somewhat rambling, too much noise, not enough information.
And I doubt Martin Schulz (whom I loathe) is that pro-Israel…I got the opposite impression.
But you’re right about Eastern Europe, I hope they’ll remain firm and won’t make the same mistakes as in the West. Germany’s actions right now (trying to bully the Eastern Europeans into taking their “fair” share of the “refugee” hordes) disgust me…the Christian Democrats are just scum. Two more months, then there’ll be elections in three states, and I hope it will be a day the German establishment will never forget.
I think your explanation is likely correct. I guess I got a little sidetracked and was having trouble seeing how that comparison informs me on what Russians and Poles think about each other today as I could see that the American stereotype was not valid.
One could guess that such a prejudice comes actually from a Ukrainian, not “Muscovy Russian” milieu. Cossacks and, generally speaking, people from today western-central Ukraine had to handle all the time Polish nobles who ruled the land (it’s important to remember that Rzeczpospolita was in fact a very aristocratic state). If you read, to quote the most obvious book on topic, Gogol”s Taras Bul’ba, then you find a lot of this low-class hatred towards well-dressed, arrogant, heretic Poles. Poland was a Malorussian problem for most of Early Modern Age; Greater Russian were probably more focused on Swedes, and did not develope a peculiar anti-Polish feeling.
Blah blah blah… I was just trolling, and you took the bait. Now go fuck yourself. In the anal area.
Yes, absolutely. It’s really more of a prejudice endemic to the Borderland (kresy) region (most of present-day Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine). Lithuanian nationalists also tend to be very anti-Polish, despite or in some ways because of sharing a large state with Poland for so long. Their attitude is similar to that of Scottish nationalists toward England.
Lol. Trolls trolling trolling trolls.
How did Roosh come up? For those that don’t know, Akarlin had his own forays into writing about ‘game’.
https://akarlin.com/2012/06/youve-been-gamed-how-to-understand-modern-american-society/ That’s 4 years old now, so who knows.
Taras Bulba haha. I love Gogol, but that story was pretty bad. Except for the purple Polish-hating passage “…snorting, twirling their imposing mustaches imposingly”. Actually that might be Viy. Another Polonophobe with significant Polish ancestry.
Poland is funny. Accusing Russia of imperialism while spending the 1920’s dreaming of ways to rule over a population over 3x that of their Polish population. I think the sort of Catholicism that the average Pole believes in is no longer shared by the Vatican or even most Catholics (mostly in Latin America & Africa).
With a bit of luck the Poles and other ex Warsaw Pact countries will form up into a non-aligned group which could act as a non pozzed alternative to the EU.
OK. You people are moving the target around.
I am trying to get the picture on the cheap.
Is the dynamic between Russian Russians and Polish Poles closer to Irish/English or Scots/English?
Poles tend to view themselves as much more important than they actually are, they feel a visceral resentment and sense of being historically cheated regarding Russia. Russians in a contrast, hold Poles with indifference, though since they joined the EU there’s been more overt contempt.
I would say more Ireland? Poland doesn’t figure too much in the Russian mind these days. It’s hard to compare though. Belarus might be more comparable to Scotland in that regard.
This is from Pew: https://twitter.com/conradhackett/status/661195191030849536
Only 44% of Poles think that homosexuality is morally unacceptable. In Russia that figure is 72%. 22% of Poles consider homosexuality morally acceptable. In Russia only 9% think that way.
I think I remember Anatoly quoting stats that showed these two countries diverging from each other over time on this issue, Poland becoming more gay-friendly and Russia going the opposite way.
historically cheated regarding Russia
By Russia or by “fate” in relation to Russia?
Another question from Pew: Should homosexuality be accepted by society? https://twitter.com/conradhackett/status/661189570818625536
42% of Poles say yes. Only 16% of Russians agree.
I’m not so obsessed with homosexuality that I think it trumps much more substantial issues that affect more people. Poland seems to be conservative enough on that topic. Congratulations on being in the same category as sub-Saharan Africa with respect to homosexuality, Russia.
You cited HIV, which affects even fewer people.
To my mind, neither. It’s more like France/Spain, or US/Mexico, or maybe even Brazil/Argentina.
But I’m not really sure what you’re asking. I will say that, during several years living in Russia, I was struck by the number of Russians who either spoke/understood Polish, or were interested in Polish culture and life, or had some Polish ancestry. These countries may be closer than they appear on the surface.
Nothing odd or inappropriate about mentioning Russia’s very high HIV rate; it is, after all, a good indicator of the country’s morality, the topic of this post and others.
Your off-topic mentioning of masturbating boys, on the other hand, does suggest something about where your mind is:
http://www.unz.com/isteve/ramzan-kadyrov-putins-head-chechen-in-charge/#comment-898724
The degree of acceptance of sodomy is a very good indicator of a country’s morality.
I cited HIV together with abortion rate, unmarried cohabitation rate, churchgoing rate, homicide rate, and divorce rate. Collectively, these issues affect society more than does homosexuality.
Pregnant Russians are 15 times more likely to kill their unborn children than are pregnant Poles, Russians are 11 times more likely to have HIV than are Poles, Russians are about 9 times more likely to murder each other than are Poles, they are three times more likely to never got to church than are Poles, and they are twice as likely to divorce than are Poles. The fact that Russians, like sub-Saharan Africans and Muslims, hate gays more than Poles do is less important in terms how traditional a society is than are all other factors.
BTW acceptance of homosexuality has declined in Poland, so your theory that EU membership leads to more acceptance is mistaken, like much of what you write about Eastern Europe:
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/
He isn’t wrong. This series of polls (more than just two datapoints as in PEW) indicates that acceptance of homosexuality/support for gay marriage in Poland has increased.
http://www.cbos.pl/SPISKOM.POL/2013/K_024_13.PDF
Apparently not, given that in Russia’s case lack of acceptance of homosexuality coincides with the perhaps the world’s highest rate of killing unborn children, Europe’s highest homicide rate, among the highest divorce rates in the world, etc.
PEW and this poll may have somewhat different results then. PEW claims slightly less acceptance in 2013 vs. 2007, the poll you cite shows somewhat more acceptance. BTW, the PEW study showed acceptance in Russia decreasing by almost the same % as in Poland.
The poll you linked to shows generally increased tolerance but with somewhat mixed results.
In 2010 8% of Poles thought homosexuality was normal, 63% felt it was abnormal but ought to be tolerated, and 23% felt it was abnormal and shouldn’t be tolerated. In 2013 12% thought it was normal, 57% abnormal but ought to be tolerated, and 26% felt it was abnormal and shouldn’t be tolerated. There were fewer undecideds, with strong opposition growing almost as much as acceptance.
Acceptance of gay marriage increased from 16% to 26% from 2010 to 2013 (68% still opposed). In 2001 support for gay marriage had been 24% and opposition 69% so current rate isn’t much different from 2001 rate.
Support for gay adoption only increased from 6% to 8% (back to the 2000 and 2003 rates – with opposition to gay adoption higher in 2013 than in 2000 and 2003) and support for gays being open about their sexuality increased only from 29% to 30%.
Looking at your prose style, I am not surprised you have never met a simile before. But then in Banderistan they are certainly unknown, and probably banned as damaging “national” security.
In 1920 there were too visions of Poland. First, endecja, was about getting only lands with significant Polish population, so Poles would be at least 50% of the nation. Their vision succeeded; as you know, Polish delegation was offered more lands in Riga than it was finally accepted; hard to think abotu any other example when one party refuses the land it is offered by the defeated party.
Another vision, Pilsudski, was to get as much land as possible and to create a federation of nominally independent states, united in a federation, in which Poland would be leading state due to its size, culture and so on – something like Germany in UE now. Pilsudski lost.
Neither vision encompassed dreaming a way to rule over a population 3x Polish.
That’s not really true. POland is largest post-communist state in Europe except Ukraine, which is a failed state, and Russia. Poland is third largest Slavic state. Poland is 6th largest state in UE.
In comparison, Russia wants to treats as the same as Montenegro or Slovakia and is surprised when we think we do not consider themselves as important as Montenegro.
In addition, sympathy to Russia and Russians rised a bit during last decades, though there is large chunk of population which is, indeed very suspicious and hostile to Russia. Most of Poles, however, treats Russia with indifference, though understandably, Russia seems matter more for Poland than Poland for Russia.
On the other hand, Russians could be divided, in my experience, into two groups: those, who declare sympathy towards us, and those, who are absolutely hating us for reasons I cannot grasp. Mostly it because we don’t want to be lackeys of Russia’s tzars and because we are catholics, from what I’ve understood. I like the first group and I despise the second group. I wish the first group would be larger; whatever you may think, in my opinion good relations between Poles and Russians would be good and profitable for both Poland and Russia.
And, besides, we are both northern Slavs, very similar in genetic composition, and quite often very similar in character and reactions.
Belarus is Wales. Ukraine is Scotland.
Well, Dmowski had the idea that Poland could only make lasting gains at Germany’s expense long before 1920, and he was proved right long after 1920.
Cuba rejects Putinism. Crimea suffering from expanding Putinism.
“They brought in these transit rules but didn’t prepare a mechanism for how exactly this will work: what kind of seals are needed, what kind of control measures are needed. As a result Russia is not letting Ukrainian trucks across its border,” she said.
Univerisy closed and nobody answer phone at Kremlin about seals. Program to ban, burn and bury foods failing and Putin said let them eat cake! Must be Russian cake, because Betty Crocker is outlaw. Make Cuban rum cake!
A typical Mahometan response to things known to all.
Not denying Poland could potentially be an important state again, but until it leaves the EU and NATO most of the world is not going to see it as a genuinely sovereign-state, e.g. Switzerland.
It’s true that Serbians generally can be embarrassingly fanboyish towards Russia also, but at least they’re not dictated by Brussels, and any past/future pointless wars will at least involve their own interests.
Actually, I think the main rationale for Russian polonophobes is the fact that Poland never bought into pan-slavism, and for their joining the American bandwagon. Also that the Solidarity movement was the no.1 catalyst for demise of the whole USSR and the “dashing 90’s” that followed.
Lieven (or was it Wilson?) made a good case that Ukraine had characteristics of both Scotland and Ireland in terms of its relationship to Russia/England.
Your choice of simile does reveal where your mind is focused.
Ohm you are Serbian? Kosovo je Srbija! After all this years, I am becoming angry when I remember how our foreign minister announced he will recognize Kosovo because we are part of the bandits club. A large contributing factor in my way towards euroscepticism and intermarium.
Dmowski was somewhat pro-Russian and his followers were more likely to collaborate with both Nicky’s Russia (during Lviv’s occupation in 1915) and, later, the USSR. Dmowski was happy for Poland to be small and (somewhat) subservient to Russia. Pilsudski was both anti-Russian and anti-German, though more anti-Russian. He did not want Poland to be subservient to anyone. Accordingly, his strategy was to weaken Russia and to develop alliances in central Europe that would enable Poland to be independently powerful. This dream was severely compromised if not destroyed at Riga, where the negotiations were conducted by Dmowski’s followers rather than Pilsudski’s. Pilsudski also proposed an invasion of Germany in 1933 (a time when Poland’s military was not nearly as outmatched by Germany’s as would be the case in 1939), but the western allies were not interested.
Events seem to have vindicated Pilsudski and Poland’s post-Soviet elite mostly follow his ideas in terms of Poland’s place in Europe, with nuances differentiating the various sides -the previous Polish government was less anti-German and anti-Russian than the current one.
Poland’s long-term strategy would be for Ukraine to be built up and successful, and to serve as Poland’s (junior) partner; France to Poland’s Germany, which would enable Poland to play a large and more independent role within the EU. This would also, of course, have the other benefit of denying Ukraine to Russia. So far Ukraine remains a mess economically and politically (though it is not as bad as Russians hope); however, Ukraine has turned away from Russia, supports EU/NATO membership, and current opinion polls show Poland is the most popular country in the world for Ukrainians (Russia, the least).
In the USA, African Americans are the least tolerant towards homosexuals of all ethnic groups. In your world does this mean they are the most moral group?
As you know, Kaczynski was opposed to NATO intervention on behalf of Albanians.
Perhaps the huge amounts of Russophobia emanating from Poland in the last quarter century had something to do with it?
The problem is that a lot of “russophobia” is just in RUssian eyes. E.g. when we wanted to join NATO or now when we want to have NATO bases it’s not Russophobia. Similarly when we point that Poland was not independent post 1945 to 1989, or other facts of history – I guess we would have to just smile and pretend nothing happened, and then we would not be deemed “russophobic”
Of course some russophobia exists too, I know personally several people who are absolutely lunatics in the level of their russophobia, but, as I said – the rest is just in the eye of the beholder.
By American stereotype one means Jewish.
Thanks. My knowledge of Polish and Russian relations is limited to WW2 and forward. I was just trying to get an understanding of how much their history prior to WW2 plays into their relations today. I am getting a lot from the comments here and now that Steve has a post on Poland the comments there are informative as well.
In fact that stereotype was common throughout American society, and had a lot to do with social class, as well as traditional Catholic/Protestant tensions.
There is a blog and associated book dedicated to exploring and debunking the stereotype:
http://bieganski-the-blog.blogspot.com/
I was not addressing myself to you, idiot. Your response made no more sense than usual.
[Pilsudski was both anti-Russian and anti-German]
So anti-German that he signed a non-aggression treaty with Germany in 1934.
[his strategy was to weaken Russia and to develop alliances in central Europe that would enable Poland to be independently powerful.]
In 1938 the Czechs had the opportunity to enjoy Poland’s devotion to alliances in central Europe.
[Events seem to have vindicated Pilsudski]
By utterly destroying the empire he dedicated his life to restoring, within five years of his death? Great vindication.
Poland was no allied to Czechoslovakia.
For what purpose did you join NATO?
NATO is not a pure defence organisation.
Indeed, and you can see why.
I suppose in your world Molotov-Ribbentrop meant that Hitler was pro-Soviet and Stalin pro-Nazi?
Poland had no chance due to reasons beyond Pilsudski’s control. He proved to have been correct in seeking a preemptive war against Germany in 1933, a series of alliances of states in central Europe would have given Poland more of a chance than did depending on the West, and his enemy Dmowski’s internal policies were discredited.
[I suppose in your world Molotov-Ribbentrop meant that … Stalin pro-Nazi?]
In yours it does, so the joke’s on you.
[correct in seeking a preemptive war against Germany in 1933]
You mean in pretending to have done so afterwards. Not hard. If he really wanted it, and didn’t need the west if he had friends in central Europe, why didn’t he go for it himself?
[a series of alliances of states in central Europe]
Not attempted and would have been no help if it had been.
[Dmowski’s internal policies were discredited]
By the arrival of socialism? So were Piłsudski’s. Anyway, that has nothing to do with the subject, as you know well.
A typical Christian response. Taking the moral high ground in everything.
Btw, I’m an atheist not a mohametan/mohammedan/muslim/mozlem/muslamic.
You are the one who stupidly suggested that signing a non-aggression treaty with Germany in 1934 meant that Pilsudski was not anti-German: “So anti-German that he signed a non-aggression treaty with Germany in 1934.”
In February 1933 Pilsudski told Deladier that Germany was rearming and needed to be confronted before the situation deteriorated further.
In March 1933 Pilsudski sent Jerzy Potocki to speak directly with French foreign minister Joseph Paul-Boncour, and Colonel Boleslaw Wieniawa-Dlugoszowski to speak to the French military, about an invasion of Germany.
At that time Poland would not have been capable of conquering Germany alone but could have seized Danzig, Silesia, and threatened Berlin, while France invaded from the West.
France, of course, declined.
The central European states were not led by people with Pilsudski’s vision and were not interested in war with Germany.
Pilsudski was sabotaged at Riga by the Polish representatives, who were Dmowski’s men. If this project had worked out Poland would have had a much better chance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermarium
The ethnic cleansing of all Poles from western Ukraine was a consequence of Dmowski’s internal policies. These were not the only cause, but probably a necessary one.
[The ethnic cleansing of all Poles from western Ukraine was a consequence of Dmowski’s internal policies. These were not the only cause, but probably a necessary one.]
So that’s what your drivel concerning Piłsudski’s genius plan was about – justifying the massacres of Poles perpetrated by your fellow svidomite vermin. You’re free.
Explaining is not justifying.
And, of course, Pilsudski’s plans had nothing to do with Dmowski’s mistakes.
Not only were Poles insistent on staying Catholic, the medieval foundation of their nationhood was based on persecuting Orthodox slavs and others who refused to convert. Russians’ chilly attitude towards Poles is based on that historical memory. Poland’s view towards Russia has always been that one must defeat the other. It was the impetus for the Polish-Soviet war of 1919-1921. It also turned out to be the great self-fulfilling prophecy of the interwar years. Poland thought they could become the ascendant power in the Baltic-Ukraine region with British-French sponsorship. They were tragically wrong. Now they see NATO as their key to power. That’s just as wrong. Poland’s objective reality is that their most important relations will always be with Germany and Russia. They’re choking on that.
the medieval foundation of their nationhood was based on persecuting Orthodox slavs and others who refused to convert. Russians’ chilly attitude towards Poles is based on that historical memory.
Any commenters here know how accurate this statement is? Foundational?
Slavic chieftans in what is now Poland started converting to Roman Catholicism in the Tenth Century. Before that they were just Slavs. They soon aligned themselves with the Teutonic Orders, which were launching crusades against Pagans and Orthodox in the Baltic region. The Poles took the ideology of Crusader Catholicism with them into the Ukraine against the Orthodox Kievan Rus’. Within a century of the emergence of a Polish national identity based on Roman Catholicism, they were embracing a rather extreme, aggressive strain of said Catholicism and directing it primarily against Orthodox. Their attempts to expand eastward and subjugate Orthodox continued for centuries. The ideological imperative to subjugate Orthodox is nearly as old as the Catholic Polish sense of national identity. The aggressive, bigoted strain of Roman Catholicism that is endemic to Poland stems from the eastern Crusades defining its earliest traditions.
It is nonsense. Poland became anti-Orthodox under Sigismund Vasa (reigned from 1587) who was inspired by the Counter-reformation. Previously Polish-Lithuania was not anti-Orthodox. Indeed, its supreme military commander in a war against Moscow was a very devout Orthodox prince, Konstantiy Ostrogski:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstanty_Ostrogski
(Yes, in Ostrogski’s lifetime Poland and Lithuania were united by their common monarch in a personal union and did not yet formally become a single state until 1569)
So while the state eventually became anti-Orthodox, anti-Orthodoxy certainly wasn’t foundational. And later rulers were not as anti-Orthodox as Sigismund. The devoutly Orthodox Ruthenian/Ukrainian nobleman Adam Kysil (1600-1653) served in the Polish senate and was governor of Kiev.
One of the most celebrated battles in Polish history is the Polish defeat of the Teutonic knights at the battle of Grunwald:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald
The Polish state was basically a democracy of nobles (about 10% of the populations) and serfs. Nobles could be Catholic or Orthodox, and an Orthodox noble had more rights than a Catholic peasant. Indeed, an Orthodox nobleman had more legal rights in Poland-Lithuania than he had in despotic Russia. As for the peasants – I don’t think that Orthodox peasant-serfs in Poland-Lithuanian were treated much worse than were Orthodox peasant-serfs in Russia.
Because Poland was more culturally advanced and Poland was the intellectual and cultural center of the country, over the generations the wealthiest Orthodox nobles tended to convert to Catholicism and adopt the Polish language, while the peasant-serfs and petty gentry remained Orthodox. So eventually there was a dynamic of Polish-speaking Catholics of Rus descent (these were, btw, some of the wealthiest families in the Commonwealth, owning much more lands and serfs than did most Polish nobles) ruling over Orthodox peasant-serfs and resentful petty gentry. But again – it wasn’t as if Orthodox peasant-serfs were treated any better by Russian nobles in Russia.
It’s entirely accurate, except for the word “medieval”.
Your link regarding the Battle of Grunwald is all very lovely, but anachronistic. That was during the Fifteenth Century, well after the eastern crusades, after the Piast Dynasty, after the arrival of the Mongols, and after Nevsky fought off Catholic invaders. Your description of the political system under the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is also irrelevant to the period in question.
The PLC did indeed have a resurgence of anti-Orthodox and anti-Jewish ideology after the counter-reformation, They also formed alliances with Ukrainians against the Muscovy “Mongols” culminating in the Union of Brest. But the second-class status of the Uniates and Orthodox relative to Roman Catholics led to rebellion in the Seventeenth Century that presaged the breakup of the Polish state.
This is completely wrong. To this day there are orthodox Poles. There always were orthodox nobles and magnates and no one was oppressing them, especially not in the medieval times (i.e. before 15-16th century). First time Poland started to rule over orthodox Slavs was in 14th century, and Polish kings preserved all local laws, and Poland at that time had two official languages (i.e. languages in which legal documents were written: old Rusin and Latin).
In 17th century Swedish born king started his own local crusade against all kinds of “heretics”, backed by counter-reformation, which eventually peaked in creating uniate church.
Post 1920, there may be some truth to this, because there was a period of national fervor, where all orthodox churches were seen as sign of oppression. But to generalize this and say “always”, “fundament” and so on is a result of historical ignorance.
Piasts fought as often against orthodox neighbours as against catholics. The Rusin princesses and allies were always valuable – Rusin warriors often were called upon to help when fighting internal struggles. There was no war against orthodox. Catholic invaders which were fough by Nevsky were not Polish. I don’t know what you were reading, but this was some propaganda with no resemblence to real history.
It’s complete fantasy. Probably created in order to justify oppression of catholics under Tzarist rule.
Please provide examples of Polish persecution of Orthodox and anti-Orthodox crusading in the 9th – 12th centuries. Border raids (such as the brief takeover of Kiev) typical of neighboring states don’t count.
Nevsky fought off Germans and Estonians, not Poles. Polish crusading in the north was mostly limited to fights against pagan Prussians and Sorbs, not Russians. The period of the conflict between Poland and the Russian state coincided with the description I provided:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Russian_Wars
Russians tried depicting these as religious wars but the local Orthodox were largely on Poland’s side. Indeed, the supreme “Polish” military commander in one of the wars against Moscow was an Orthodox.
Poland did not rule over Orthodox in the period in question. It first started to rule over Orthodox people in the 14th century.
The second-class status was class-based as much as religion-based and the 17th century rebellion in Ukraine was as much of a civil war as it was a Ruthenian (Ukrainian)- Polish conflict. The wealthiest Rus nobles, most of whom had converted to Catholicism, expanded their power at the expense of the lesser nobles (most of whom stayed Orthodox) and peasant-serfs. Under the leadership of lesser nobles the peasants successfully overthrew the Rus princes. Rebellionl leader Khmelnytsky was actually hoping for support from the Polish king against the local Rus princes.
And the rebels found to their disappointment that most of them they were not really better off under Russia. Thus, alliances with Turkey, Sweden, even a turn towards Poland. They’re been trying to reunite with the West ever since.
From the mid Ninth Century on the Piasts were Catholics. The Catholic Piasts were the founders of the Polish state. Before that they were just local Slavic leaders.
Uniates were recognized as Catholics with the Union of Brest in 1569. It was a way for Ukrainians to avoid the low status of Orthodox while keeping Orthodox-like rites. Uniate Catholicism was later ruled Apostasy by the Vatican, which opened another can of worms.
I never denied the role of non-Poles like the Teutons and Swedes in crusades against Orthodox and other non-Catholics. Note that I specified that Nevsky fought off Catholic invaders, not Polish invaders. But the fact remains that Polish leaders embraced those agendas, even though rivalries did break out between Polish and non-Polish Catholics.
There was, and not just against Orthodox. There was “Polonization” directed against Uniate Ukrainians and Belorussians as well as against the Russian-identified populations in the territories gained in the Polish-Ukrainian and Polish-Soviet wars. Before you fly off the handle again, allow me to note that ethnic cleansing against Russians was also practiced under Austro-Hungarian rule. Nor am I attempting to justify the viciousness towards Poles shown by Uniate Ukrainians.
I never attempted to justify the oppression of non-Orthodox (Catholics, Muslims, Jews) under Czarist rule. Neither should we attempt to justify or minimize the oppression of non Catholics under Polish rule.
The fact that Piasts were catholics is irrevelant because they fought with all their neigbours (Czechs, Germans) who were catholics too. In comparison to that, fights with Rusin states were quite minor. Moreover, Piasts dukes had firm familiar ties to Rusin dukes and were often allied with them against other Piasts. The official schizm was only in half of 11th century, anyway.
Trying to argue that Piasts were somehow motivated by religious fervour in early medieval times is simply not true; moreover, trying to say that fights with Rusin dukes were due to religion, while more frequent fights against Germans and Czechs were just neighbour squabbles is a rhetoric trick. I argue far more frequently with other Poles than Russians. But would you try to argue that I am now discussing with you motivated by religious hatred, simply because you, Russian, are orthodox, while I (personally atheist) come from catholic nation? This is absurd.
Remember there are still orthodox Poles. Up to million of them.
There was no ethnic cleansing of Russians in Austria-Hungary because there weren’t really any Russians living in Austria-Hungary. There was political oppression (usually greatly exaggerated by Russian nationalists) against the small minority of ethnic Ukrainian Galicians who considered themselves to be Russians because they believed that all Ukrainians are Russians. This is because Austria was at war with Russia and these people were a Russian fifth column during that war (my own great-grandfather, who had hosted Brusilov at his home during the Russian occupation, was interred at Talerhof and his oldest sons were sent to the military-medical academy in St. Petersburg to avoid arrest).
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Which was surpassed by that of Orthodox Ukrainians btw – Volhynia was the site of the worst massacres.