Polish Presidential elections currently ongoing. Results of first round now 99%+ counted, with:
- Duda/PiS: 44% (normiecon)
- Trzaskowski/Civic Platform – 30% (lib)
- Hołownia – 14% (SJW)
- Kosak/Konfederacja – 7% (nationalists, in alliance with that Korwin meme person)
Almost all Bosak voters should go to Duda, so he should win in the second round, but it will be a narrow one.
What I found more interesting though was the age distribution in votes for the different candidates.
As with conservatives well nigh everywhere – and, for that matter, even reflective of developments in Russia – the old, normiecon status quo sees plummeting support amongst the younger cohorts.
Youth aren’t interested in the normie boomer con/lib divide but instead tend to bifurcate into radical SJWs vs. more hardcore nationalists (and other sorts of odd hangers on).
Konfederacja is an interesting beast being a union of nationalists, libertarians, and monarchists (!), and Bosak in particular is displaying formidable power levels.
https://twitter.com/awslist/status/1272514678158168065
Incidentally, Paul Moczar is a very good account to follow for Polish politics from a nationalist perspective.
As usual, western Poland votes more Civic Platform, while more conservative ease and south is more for Duda. Big cities are for the former, small towns and the country for the latter.
The youth split is particular visible in students: Hołownia (SJW) gets 25%, Trzaskowski (lib) gets 27%), Bosak (nationalist) gets 20% (!), while Duda plummets to 16%. Also, the otherwise near invisible Biedron, an LGBT activist, gets 8%.
This website has some breakdowns by other demographic characters.
Woman are marginally more likely to vote for the liberals/SJWs, but not by that much. It seems that what was once one of the widest sex gaps in the Western world has constricted, at least for this election.
There’s still a significant gap in Bosak votes (10% men, 4% of women) but that’s perhaps not so surprising given their libertarian economic leanings and pretty overt sexism.
Swine Right effect is in action, as in most places. Duda gets 65%-70% amongst Poles with only basic education, while bachelor’s and higher vote 42% for Trzaskowski and 18% for Hołownia.
Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.
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People in or near Kresy – how worried should they be?
Nationalism in Poland seems to be more civ nat “Judeo-Christian values” cuckery than anything particularly substantial. In practice it doesn’t seem to have had much success in stemming the tide of the LGBT agenda, race mixing, etc. In my experience Polish nationalists go out of their way to emphasise they’re “NOT RACIST”, so don’t really see much different to Western civ nats.
Now Poland has been in the EU for quite a while and is increasingly perceived as a “high income” country, I wouldn’t count on them holding out for much longer.
Just out of curiosity: are there non-Poles interested in Polish elections? Polish foreign policy remains the same for hundreds of years, regardless of any elections: piss off Russia and Germany, and then play surprised when these neighbors quash and divide Poland. It is said that the sure sign of a mental disorder is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. By this token Polish political elites were mental for centuries.
That describes PiS plus or minus, they are ~2000s Republicans. As per above, Konfederacja is a different beast.
There is no guarantee Bosak’s voters would go for Duda. I would say the split is rather 50/50 – some my friends are saying there is no difference betwen the two, so they will stay home; some will vote for Trzaskowski so he could veto PiS, which would cause PiS to seek additional votes from Konfederacja. Or they would prefer Trzaskowski because he is more liberal economically.
There is nothing certain about Duda’s victory.
As for “we are not racist” Konfederacja is not PC, but also has a lot of people insisting “you are the real racists”. For example, there was quite recently a small public, polite disagreement between Bosak, who said imigration is not needed, because economy is not everything – and the leader of the other mayor faction, JKM, who said imigrants are great as long as they want to work.
Trzaskowski also is a bit SJW. He signed LGBT card in Warsaw (though then he failed to implement anything).
Right-of-center wives are admittedly more influenced by their husbands’ politics than right-of-center husbands are by their wives’, so if I now mention something my wife said, you can credit or discount the anecdote as you will.
Knowing none of the candidates at a recent U.S. Republican congressional primary election, I spent a few minutes looking up their Web sites. Two candidates were on the screen when my wife walked in. All she did was point at one and say, “Too old.”
The too-old one appeared to be in his 50s, like me and nearly like my wife.
So we went and voted for the other candidate, in his 30s.
I have not explicitly asked my wife but of course after 25+ years of marriage I know her pretty well. As far as I know, my wife was implicitly recognizing “the normie boomer con/lib divide” to which you refer. She thought that mindset a problem.
There was no deep analysis, no lengthy discussion. The moment passed in less time than it has taken you to read this comment. My wife just implicitly preferred rule by men our children’s age rather than our own.
Isn’t that interesting?
We are no Poles, but I nevertheless suspect that your Polish statistics may have uncovered a significant point.
There have been multiple articles in British newspapers over the last fortnight talking about how Duda is trying to start a culture war and how the homo party is popular with young people, yet from the poll data, Korwin/nationalism is equally as popular (which I remember was the case with the FN in France, at least at the time of the previous elections)
Definitely there is a lot of interest in the result of Polish elections. Poland is becoming slowly the backdoor of US continuing occupation of Europe and most notably Germany, in precluding any rapprochement between Russia and Germany.
One hopes that the French wouldn’t be paranoid about this any longer.
Beside the Poles, which by historic accounts blocked as much as they could (maybe it really mattered, maybe it didn’t) the formation of a broad alliance against Hitler’s Germany between France, UK, USSR, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia… Romania is holding the candle for the US, albeit in their case is not necessarily from fear or revenge or hatred or acquisitive purposes (because I can see the Poles imagining a Poland extending eastward in what is now western Ukraine) but rather that they are very easy to buy or blackmail (the corruption there is quite high). But poor Romania, by not establishing better relations with Russia is delaying the ability to regain the stolen part of Eastern Moldavian province, which is now Republic of Moldavia.
There are a lot of eyes on Poland because it seems to be the main, immediate test of whether Eastern Europeans, seeing the runaway process of multiculturalism in Western Europe and the US, can avoid the same destruction.
I doubt if modern Germany is capable of projecting real power as far as Silesia.
People of Western Ukraine should abandon all hope.
Confederats are already against mass Ukrainisation of Poland and do not wish any more Ukrainians.
So Western Ukraine won’t be annexed as there is totally no will and interest.
One cannot avoid destruction serving as a voluntary vassal of the US. Polish illusions surprise me, as it is obvious to any sensible observer that the US will defend Poland exactly like the UK and France did in 1939. There is a saying that fools learn from their own mistakes, whereas smart people learn from the mistakes of fools. I don’t know what to call Polish politicians, as they don’t learn even from their own mistakes.
Maybe not military power. But Germany is projecting its economic power: Germans bought every piece of Polish industry worth buying. Everything they did not buy is dying or already dead, like Gdansk shipbuilding plant.
Yes, in this regard Poland is like Russia: they wouldn’t mind the land, but they object to getting local fauna with it. Still, Poland actively spreads “Karta Polaka” (Pole’s Card) in Ukraine, which allows people to move to Poland. There are numerous Ukrainian companies providing fake documents “confirming” your Polish ancestry, charging thousands of $ for it. Russia so far is issuing its passports only in Donbass, which is unlikely to rejoin Ukraine even if Ukrainians hang all Banderites on lampposts.
I don’t think Romanians have anything to lose: their chances of getting Moldova are as close to zero as makes no difference.
Sorry, but PiS is not the equivalent of the 2000s GOP. Not on migration, not on social spending.
Visegrad, of which Poland is a leading voice, is implicit in their rejection of human detritus from Africa and the Middle East.
As for migrants, they prefer Balkan/East Slavs, focusing heavily on Ukrainians. They are not race blind.
The 2020 first round results:
Duda performed better than the polls suggested, and also better than the exit poll (41.8%) by almost 2%.
The 2015 first round results:
The Confederation candidate won 6.75%, it’s more than enough to push Duda to victory, and I REALLY doubt Confederation supporters will back Rafal, who wanted Poland to receive thousands of refugees and celebrates the gay and transsexual lifestyles.
https://www.euronews.com/2020/06/28/poland-presidential-election-duda-heading-for-run-off-against-warsaw-mayor-trzaskowski
But, should the Confederation vote not go all Duda’s way, you still have Szymon Holownia (Independent 13.85%) and Wladyslaw Kosiniak-Kamysz (Conservative 2.37%). Getting as little as 10% of these candidates’ votes combined will guarantee any Confederation spillover to Rafal, besides the smaller right-wing candidates, as pointed by the Euronews article.
I think Duda’s second term is all but guaranteed.
Poland has good knife laws otherwise it’s just a budget Germany with French bureaucracy Imo.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/726632910152663041/727149957970264114/EbjngQtWsAA90dF.png
That’s Bosak, not Kosak!
Is referring to low-IQ people as “swine” actually very productive for people of a hereditarian persuasion, though?
BTW, Yes, I do expect Duda to eke out a narrow victory in the presidential runoff election in Poland. I do wonder if some or even many young Polish liberals will become more conservative/nationalistic as they will become older, though.
Do you have any basis for your near zero chances? The Romanian speaking population in the Republic of Moldavia is more than 60% and they call themselves Moldavian, like the Romanians living between river Prut and Carphatians. Lots of common things there, including history (until 1812 it was all the same principality, but because of corrupt Ottoman officials, bought by Russia, that side was ceded illegally to Russia by the Ottomants, in the prelude of Napoleonic invasion in Russia. Unfortunately napoleon lost).
So, in terms of voting in a referendum for union (it happened in 1917/1918, so there are precedents), the representatives voted to return to what was then Kingdom of Romania.
The biggest obstacle is Romania, which doesn’t dedicate as much effort, money, etc. towards union. If Romania were to dedicate as much effort towards union as Hungary dedicates towards some miraculous re-negotiation of Trianon, Republic of Moldavia would have long been now within Romania. But maybe because Romania would need to dedicate so much to investments in infrastructure to bring Bessarabia (the actual name of the area) up to same standard, that this is not considered. It takes two to tango.
Polling indicates there’s limited enthusiasm in Moldova for that former Soviet republic becoming a part of Romania.
On paper, Gagauzia can hypothetically leave Moldova in the event of a Moldovan-Romanian merger. Likewise, such a merger will be rejected by the disputed former Moldavian SSR territory of Pridnestrovie (AKA Transnistria and closely related spellings), which Moldova ideally seeks to regain.
https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1277752269509996555
There is an enormous difference between, say 1920 and 2020. For the first
time in many centuries there are very few Jews left in the Slavic territories
as well as in Germany. This bodes well for a higher level of sanity in
Central Europe. As always I claim that Central Europe (i.e. mostly Visegrad
4, Catholic bloc of about 65 million people) represents a separate civilization,
that has not been tainted by the Western European colonialism, slave trade,
and general decadence and immorality. Neither has it been tainted by
the Eastern European (Russia, Ukraine, …) tyranny and lawlessness. Poland,
for example, has followed Roman law for centuries, and made enormous
contributions to international law. Catholic ethics is based on the
Aristotelian/Buddhist Principle of the Golden Mean, i.e., moderation
in all things, which helps to stabilize Central Europe. The Czech physicist
Lubos Motl agreed with me in his Reference Frame blog – he also believes
that Central Europe is the last remaining bastion of sanity in Europe.
Western observers are mostly incapable of seeing Central Europe as
a separate civilization because they view Europe in terms of Slav vs non-Slav.
They are unable to see that Western Slavs feel no guilt about slavery or
colonialism, and that Western Slavs, due to their Catholicism, feel
to a large extent that they belong to the Latin civilization – French, Italian,
Spanish, and Portuguese. The Latins (as well as the Celts) are our
natural allies culturally speaking. This means that Poland, etc is allied
with the future because the United States is slowly but surely becoming part
of Latin America.
Looking at the current Covid-19 deaths per million, Central Europe (deaths
in the 30s or so) stands out from Western Europe (incl. Germany) which is
one big disaster area, and from Russia, etc where deaths per 1 M are still
increasing rapidly. Obviously, people in Central Europe must be doing
something right. Also, according to EU stats, Poland is expected to suffer
the lowest level of recession due to Covid-19 this year. Other than Upper
Silesia (where the mines had to remain open, thus contributing to
infections), people in Poland are saying, “Virus? What virus?” Simultaneously,
Western Europe, incl. Germany, has suffered a tremendous loss of
prestige from which it’s unlikely to recover.
Germany, in view of the unmitigated disasters of its last 150 years, is
no longer as arrogant as it used to be, and is beginning to understand
that there has been something profoundly wrong with its decision-making
process in the last couple of centuries. Contrary to the HBD dogmas,
highly intelligent people are perfectly capable of making disastrous
decisions in their life, and as Bertrand Russell pointed out, Germans
are not known for their skill in politics. This bodes well for some sort
of accommodation between Germans and Western Slavs in the coming
decades.
They are more anti-Islam and anti-non-European-migrant than are ~2000 Republicans. Kaczynski said “In Europe there is full tolerance for the cultural offensive…[of] Muslim civilisation” and that “Europe must defend itself.” Contrast this with Bush’s words after 9-11: “The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That’s not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace.”
PiS also more populistic economically. Overall it is kind of Trumpian, except without such a morally debauched leader as Trump.
And Civic Platform is basically Romney Republicans. It’s leftist primarily by Polish standards.
True, as so often people automatically sink into endless false analogies. There are recognisable patterns, but it is also always different. Comparing Poland’s situation to the 1930’s or the centuries before is way off – Poland has no real enemies today, that’s a fundamental and real difference. They might get wiped off the face of earth because of stupidity and bad luck, but it won’t happen because there are Russian or German enemies who desire it.
Visegrad is not a ‘Catholic bloc’. Poland is Catholic and the other three have a degree of mostly lukewarm catholicism, but describing Czechs as ‘Catholic’ would be bizarre. Visegrad is also deeply disunited on very basic questions and there are mutual antagonisms that are more important than external issues that outsiders focus on. Trying to include Hungary in a ‘Western Slavic’ civilisation is a stretch, those would be fighting words for most Magyars.
With regard to corona: statistically people in Central Europe have always had lower rates of plague and similar diseases. That was the case with the Black Death and in numerous plagues afterwards. It was the case with the Justinian plague in 540’s when Slavs expanded into areas depopulated by the plague and prospered. It could be something genetical given that we originated in very cold and wet heavily wooded areas, many Germans also seem to have this higher immunity. That and the provincialism of the Visegrad countries is a better explanation than internal discipline.
I agree that Visegrad – plus Austria, E Germany, Slovenia, Croatia, etc…- is a separate Central European civilisation. But it is too adjacent to both the West and the East to develop on its own. The sanity is important, but historically it only takes a few morons with the traditional yearning for the ‘other‘ (always some ‘other‘ somewhere else) to undermine this sanity. In no place in the world can one find intellectuals so deeply inserted in the backside of the most absurd Western or Hollywood narratives as in the Visegrad main cities. We might not get as much corona or the plague, but the intellectual minds are weak and the willpower transient. And there goes the civilisation…
As I mentioned, what’s radically new in Central and Eastern Europe is that there
are very few Jews left in the Slavic territories (although Michnik still
runs Gazeta Wyborcza, a major newspaper, in Poland). And what is the single
most important Jewish characteristic? It’s their stratospheric levels of
immorality, particularly in matters related to sex and money, as judged by
population averages. Need I mention Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein,
Bernard Madoff, and countless others? Even in the Roman Empire there
were documents warning people to avoid Jewish moneylenders. Once
the Jews are largely gone the level of morality can automatically rise
higher, as it has happened in Central Europe.
Of course, we still have a long way to go. Science tells us that we’re basically
smart chimps, primitive predatory primates, and the neverending wars and
neverending criminality confirm it. We use our intelligence mostly as
a weapon. We are tribal (i.e., we tend to dislike people from outside our
tribe), aggressive, lustful, revengeful, territorial, and status-seeking
(i.e., seeking dominance in our interactions with others). Racism, as an
example of tribalism, is perfectly normal, and as long as it’s practiced
in moderation, or better yet, kept to a minimum, it’s not a major
problem. The current U.S. war on racism is one more symptom
of America going insane, especially because blacks are as racist as
everybody else simply due to the fact that tribalism is the average
characteristic of predatory primates like us at our current stage of evolution.
Re: Visegrad is not a Catholic bloc
True, in the literal sense, but I’d claim that Central Europe is still
largely Catholic in the cultural sense. It’s certainly not aggressively
Protestant. Its ethics heavily follows the Principle of Moderation,
and is not tainted by imperialist greed or by extreme levels of
tyranny. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was largely at
peace while the Germans, etc were butchering each other over something
as trivial as theological differences. Fanaticism and going to extremes
are a typical Germanic characteristic (e.g., torture in Münster during
the Religious Wars). Lubos Motl, for example, stated that he is
a Christian atheist, i.e., he admits to being culturally Christian.
P.S. Lithuania, a Catholic country, could be added to Central Europe
but they now love to be regarded as part of Northern Europe. To me
Northern Europeans are by definition Protestant but Protestantism is
on the slippery slope toward agnosticism. Standard joke in the U.S.
is that Episcopalian churches should have a question mark, rather
than a cross, on their steeples. Today’s Protestants don’t know what
to believe so they succumb to the laziest choice, i.e., practical
materialism.
Is Hołownia really the “SJW” candidate? Yes he’s super far left when it comes to green politics/fighting climate change but Trzaskowski has the more liberal record on homos and other social issues. He likes to whine about “democracy/rule of law” but so does PO. If I were a hardcore SJW I think I would generally vote for Wiosna , and failing that, for PO.
Really I think Hołownia is a lot more comparable to something like MS5 in Italy–mostly backed by anti-“establishment” anti-party types, with a vaguely leftist actual platform, especially concerning the environment, but also a lot of variability.
Re: They might get wiped off the face of the earth because of stupidity
We’re merely smart chimps so to expect more than stupidity from us is
asking a little too much. However, in the context of Europe
the word “stupidity” should only be reserved for Germanics, esp.
Germans. Bertrand Russell alerted me to this fact. Only Germans
have exhibited a consistently stupid behavior over the centuries.
Merkel’s Millions are the latest example. I could mention countless other
examples but even in the 1930s didn’t the Germans know that they
were intensely disliked, and not only in Poland and France? (News flash:
Germans are still disliked and distrusted in much of Europe although I know
they’re desperate to redeem themselves in the eyes of history, and more
power to them). But in 1938 didn’t the Germans know that the end game
of their actions would be millions of Germans dead and raped, and their country
reduced to rubble? What else could the tiny country of Germany expect
except much of the world coming down on them like a ton of bricks
to teach them a lesson not to even think of doing this again? The fact
that they didn’t know it demonstrates German stupidity better than
anything else I can think of. But as I mentioned before, rationality in
the service of stupidity is a perfect description of Germanic (German and Austrian)
modus operandi in the last 150 years. No other succinct phrase comes close
Polish immigrants in Britain seem to be quite into and positive about the multi-cultural/multi-racial thing. The women seem to race mix proportionally more than British women do and I generally see Poles socialising and mixing with blacks and other non-whites significantly more than I see native British people doing so.
I suppose it’s self-selecting to a large extent though, the Poles who particularly had an issue with mutli-racialism and “melting pot” type societies probably wouldn’t choose Britain to emigrate to. I suspect a significant percentage move to Britain specifically because they want to live a Western, cosmopolitan “melting pot” fantasy that they can’t in Poland.
Unless, American Empire rectract or collapse, all of the Eastern European countries are xxxx. Including Russia. People over here still consider USA as example to follow. You can point many problems: no healthcare, no work protection, discrimination, criminality, opiod crisis. No way. People turn on TV and watch Friends. Everybody else is Russian / Chinese paid shill.
It is most obvious with China example. People think, that Chinese live in huts and eat few spoon of rise a day. When you point out obvious economic development, standard answer is propaganda, build on Tibets work, ghost cities.
I have feeling, that American empire already win.
Not sure about that first point mate: https://www.kylinprime.com/news/142/One-in-three-Moldovans-hold-Romanian-citizenship.html
As for Transnistria, it was never part of Moldavia nor Romania. It was first created by Soviets in early 1920s to preserve a claim on Bessarabia. Then Khruschov did the swap and gifted the southern part of Bessarabia to Ukraine and Transnistria to RSS of Moldavia, at the same time Crimea was gifted to Ukraine. Given this history, neither Romania, nor Moldavia would be adamant of preserving that sliver of land that holds a sizable Russian army there. Let it be Ukraine’s problem.
And Gagauzia, I somewhat think that they would rather be with the more tolerant Romanians than with Ukrainians, because that is not a viable polity my friend.
I would think that historically one can see that the levels of stupidity in Poland are a magnitude higher than that found in Germany… The Pan’s oligarchy was and is utterly dysfunctional and in the end the chickens will come home to roost. As for now Germany for instance is acting extremely cautiously and slowly (because there won’t be that much propaganda) it will become obvious to Germans that US is an occupying force that is in fact trying to strangle German economy as much as possible.
Once the Jews are largely gone the level of morality can automatically rise
higher, as it has happened in Central Europe
True, but based on my few times turning on the TV in Polish hotel rooms Jews are in every Polish living room every night via Hollywood.
Fanaticism and going to extremes are a typical Germanic characteristic
I’ve long suspected that American bipolarity, contentiousness, and general lack of moderation when compared to the rest of the English-speaking world had something to do with the large German contingent – though greater Jewish & Puritan influence probably contributed as well.
Your lumping of Protestantism with northern Europeans and fanaticism with Germanics/non-central Europeans overlooks the experience of the Hussite Wars.
Germans are fanatical autists. They have a peculiar combination of love for(or commitment to) abstract rules and a strong tendency of ideological(as opposed to practical) thinking. When combined with any sort of chauvinism, you have a particularly dangerous cocktail(and it’s very easy for Germans to be chauvinistic because they actually are better than others at any number of things). This explains much of German extreme behavior.
They’re not stupid though. A more stupid nation in Germany’s position would have been destroyed long ago by the French. One of the unfortunate things about the two world wars is that they have given the French a pass for long-term malicious efforts to destroy Germany and Germans. You are only generalizing from German failures and failing to account for German successes.
It’s the Puritans, not the German-Speakers.
Many of America’s wokest cultural institutions were founded by Puritans (Harvard, Brown, etc.) & post-Puritans (Oberlin, Reed, etc.).
people keep repeating that eastern Europe is conservative but Budapest and Prague are the porn capitals of europe
Like Pridnestrovie, the Gagauz at large prefer Russia.
Upon the establishment of the USSR and prior to Molotov-Ribbentrop, the Moldavian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic existed within the Ukrainian SSR. The Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement, led to the creation of the Moldavian SSR, in which the territory of Pridnestrovie (Transnistria) was included. It had previously been part of the Moldavian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic.
As for Moldovan attitudes towards Romania, since Communism’s collapse, Romania has elements which have been keen on granting citizenship to Moldovans with a merger in mind. Being in the “Western camp” (for lack of a better term), some Moldovans see an economic benefit in having Romanian membership. At the same time, this mindset doesn’t automatically equate into the majority of Moldovans seeking to become a part of Romania. This is especially true if the Gagauz and non-ethnic Moldovans in Pridnestrovie are included.
I recall polls on this matter typically being in the 15%-20% range of Moldovans favoring a merger with Romania. Among some Moldovan political elites, there’s a likely concern of getting de-emphasized in the event of Moldova getting incorporated into Romania.
The Moldovan president attended the recent Victory Day parade in Moscow.
‘I would think that historically one can see that the levels of stupidity in Poland are a magnitude higher than that found in Germany… ‘
Lol. This does not promise to be an edifying quarrel.
Actually, I’ll propose that intelligent behavior on the part of nations in general is pretty rare — and those that practice it usually get over it.
Germany runs the EU, that is real power.
Harvard only became woke when WASPs were displaced. Ditto the rest of New England.
As a general assertion that is obviously not true, but you are right about the particular examples. Germans are also quite diverse, it’s really not a single culture but a collection of varied groups tied together by language and history. As a whole they are famously tone-deaf, lacking in humor and nuance that leads to catastrophic mistakes.
Poles are in a class of their own, both in their elite’s stupidity and in their inability to learn from mistakes. They are a tragic case of emotions that suppress rational thought, even a discussion of some topics is often impossible in their society. I will leave aside the bad choices they made in the past – snuggling up to the Nazis and participating in Munich is a classic example. Today they mindlessly try to stir up EU and Visegrad to start what looks like an undeclared war against nuclear Russia. There is pretty much zero chance of that working out, definitely not for Poland. But they persist, more others tell them to cool it, more passionate they become, as if their libido was misplaced. Now that’s stupidity, even Merkel is not that dumb…
“Today they mindlessly try to stir up EU and Visegrad to start what looks like an undeclared war against nuclear Russia. ” – Obviously you exaggerate. I doubt there are sentiments in Poland ( perhaps Karlin could finally write his impression from his stay in Poland last year) to start a war or conquest of Russia but I would not be surprised if they hoped for further weakening of Russia. At most this is on the level of simple human Schadenfreude. This is no brainer for Poles and for all non renegade Europeans that weaker Russia is good for Europe. Peeling off Ukraine from Russia was not planned or executed by Poland but certainly was welcomed in Poland and in Europe in general. I would understand that the same they hope for Belarus that it will follow Ukraine eventually by weakening its ties with Russia. I do not think that there are people in Poland who have some grandiose fantasies but they are a nation with a history in which they were actors who often struggled on the losing sided but nonetheless they had an agency they did not relinquish unlike Slovaks who were always passive going with the flow shepherds and bryndza makers who did not really care who was ruling over them whether Hungarians, Austrians, Nazis or Soviets as long their favorite pastime with the sheep was not interfered with.
You seem to lack the nuance that I mentioned previously. I said ‘undeclared war‘, what I meant is that Poles are playing with the idea, pushing it on others, but of course when not drunk and conscious they will deny it. Everyone would. I am sure that in the mid-30’s from Germany to Poland, from Russia to Italy all people loudly denied wanting an actual war. Wars happen not because people want them, they happen because elites’ stupidity and bad luck reach a point of no return. Try to understand that nuance, it’s not that hard. In the meantime, Slovakia is ruling itself quite happily, we have morons with silly ideas like everyone else, but all in all it is a good country, one of the best in Europe these days.
You obviously have a thing for sheep. That’s fine, to each his own, but constantly projecting it here is weird, as if it has become an idea fixe in your mind. I wish you good luck with it, maybe pictures of shapely goats would help you, I can post some.
The first Jewish President of Harvard was Larry Summers, who is most definitely not a SJW.
One single man, and one who only became Harvard President this century long after the damage was done, is all you’ve got?
You really shouldn’t like when you can just use google. Poland had not participated in Munich. True, our leaders demanded participation, but were denied. Taking Zaolzie was against Munich resolution.
The rest is just your delusions speaking.
It’s not we who are planning threatening Russia with nuclear attack. It’s not we who randomly declare bans on Russian items. It’s not we who randomly decide to close the strait for Russian ships.
‘Poland is not a nation, but an unsound state of mind’
Quentin Crisp
Well, in my view Poland is both a nation and an unsound state of mind. If you accept an unsound state of mind as the only definition, Ukraine would be way ahead of Poland, and the three Baltic vaudeville “states” not far behind Ukraine.
Yes, Poland did not participate in Munich. Czechoslovakia was betrayed in Munich by the UK and France. However, Poland along with Germany participated in dismembering Czechoslovakia after Munich (although Poland got only a small piece). That’s why Churchill called Poland “the hyena of Europe”.
Whatever happened to Riga? It was the porn capital of the USSR.
Churchill name was a psychological reaction of huge bastard who betrays his virtues and then vents his at anger at some other guy. We were never friends with Czechoslovakia. They were hostile to us, sometimes openly; they considered us a temporary state.
In contrast, France was Czech ally. GB together with France fed Czechoslovakia to lyons and then they had the audacity to pretend higher ground and preach to Poland about morals. Maybe that made them feel better about their own betrayal.
FYI, Churchill was not British PM who signed Munich betrayal. On behalf of Britain it was signed by the PM of the time, Neville Chamberlain. So, Churchill is guilty of many things, but not the Munich pact of 1938.
Not sure what has to do with anything. Churchill was not talking about Polish government, but he – a British man – was talking about a whole country. He could be a just a famous writer or a painter, it would sound all the same – his country behaved much more awful, so his words has to be understood as flowing from a dirty conscience.
BTW Churchil had not said “Poland was hyena” only that it had “hyena apettite”. Again – guilty conscience of British man, whose country’s actions were rather unpleasant.
his country behaved much more awful, so his words has to be understood as flowing from a dirty conscience
What behaviour are you referring to with respect to Poland?
You’re the one who said “Harvard only became woke when WASPs were displaced.” I used Summers as evidence against, not for, your claim.
Poland took part in the Munich dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. They took the Tesin district and two northern districts in Slovakia. That is a simple fact. Undeniable.
If you claim that Tesin was taken because it had Polish population (it was mixed), then you automatically also must agree that Hitler was right to take Sudeten and Soviets to take Western Ukraine that had Ukrainian majority. It is the same principle.
I am still waiting for some Poles to admit that Churchill was right and that Poland acted like a hyena. And with that admission of truth comes a lot of consequences that Poles would prefer not to face. I will wait.
By the way, the nutty argument that ‘Poland was not friends with Czechoslovakia’ would be very dangerous for Poland: are you saying that when countries are ‘not friends’ it is ok for them to attack and occupy each other? Are you actually saying that? Then why wouldn’t Germany or Russia also be perfectly within their rights to do it to unfriendly Poland? As so often, you don’t think about what you write.
It seems to me that you are lacking the most basic reading comprehension skills.
No. First, do not move goalposts. You wrote Poland took part in Munich. False. Now you say in “Munich dismemberment”, but this is false too, as “Munich dismemberment” does not mean just “something which happened after Munich conference” but “smoething agreed upon in Munich”. Poland took no part in Munich – taking Tesin was a separate affair, not agreed with France (Czech ally) and GB (who threw Czechs to Hitler in order to avoid war). You could say we participated in disememberment or in post-Munich dismemberment, but not in Munich.
I was not saying whether taking Tesin was right nor not. For the record, given the circumstances I believe Poland should not take Cieszyn, it was morally wrong and it caused us to lose moral rghts to the territory. When Czechs sent us a letter saying they want to solve all disputes and when we reacted to this letter by issuing ultimatum, this was wrong. But it was not comparable to French behavior – French were Czech allies! It wasn’t even comparable to Slovak behavior (participation in Nazi invasion of Poland without a declaration of war). And it was not part of Munich agreements.
PLus “we were not friends with Czechs” is not justification nor it was argument. This was to make you understood that French behavior and English behavior was much more despicable – and yet Churchil, a citizen of a country which was ready to dismember another country to save their own skin, had audacity to pretend he s lecturing us from some higher ground.
No. For Darwin’s sake, stop building strawmans and start answering to my comments, and not to your imagination.
Musicians (e.g., well-known singer Sanah) have resumed their concert tours.
Virus? What virus? Poland has only had 39 deaths per 1 M population. In
general, Central Europe is doing extremely well relative to Western Europe
or the U.S.
The WASPs were displaced by Ellis Islanders, mostly Jews, decades before wokeness and even its PC predecessor. When WASPs (mostly Puritan descendants) dominated Harvard it was, by today’s standards at least, a based racist anti-Semitic institution. Therefore your argument that they are responsible for today’s wokeness is wrong.
I’d actually say that Poland’s Catholicism is “Orthodox Catholicism” and is much closer, in terms of cultural norms, to Slav/Greek/Romanian orthodoxy than to “Western Catholicism” as it is today.
Whereas places like Portugal, Spain, and Ireland, are super cucked and their current holy trinity is trannies, third worlders, and antidepressants. Not the same Catholicism, no way no sir. Western Catholicism is “Protestant Catholicism” in terms of cucking.
We’ll see if Italy as such can redeem itself.
This was to make you understood that French behavior and English behavior was much more despicable
Neither French nor British behaviour was despicable. They had no good choices, much like Poland itself.
and yet Churchil, a citizen of a country which was ready to dismember another country to save their own skin, had audacity to pretend he s lecturing us from some higher ground.
I really hope you are not referring to the very good deal that Churchill, without any leverage, expended great effort in the midst of the greatest war in history, to get with Stalin to recognise & restore the Polish government-in-exile after the war. That generous deal allowed for a defeated and occupied Poland to exist after the war, to remain ethnically Polish, and to even receive German territory in the west in exchange for unimportant mostly non-ethnically Polish territory in the east. Any Polish person who lives in the world as it is, as opposed to some imagined romantic one that does not exist, must agree that the Polish government-in-exile fucked up royally by not listening to Churchill only to be steamrolled by an unrestrained Stalin. Maybe you are referring to something else altogether that I’m not aware of as it wouldn’t make sense for a Pole to blame Churchill (or anyone else) for poor Polish decision-making.
“I’ll propose that intelligent behavior on the part of nations in general is pretty rare — and those that practice it usually get over it.” Cannot agree more with this statement, especially with the last part. It is seen not only in countries but in families as well…
Still, I think that there is a higher level of disfunctionality with the Poles, especially Polish aristocracy, while Germans are a bit more comunitarian…
Computer experiments with “selfish” and less “selfish” individuals within a population have shown that on the long run, those population with fewer “selfish” individuals are more successful.
You are desperately trying to disassociate Poland from Munich and its behaviour in October 1938 when Poland ‘like a hyena‘ (Churchill) grabbed three districts of Czechoslovakia. Poland was not a big power so it was not invited to Munich, but it coordinated with Nazi Germany and there is a lot to answer for.
You also don’t address the two northern districts of Slovakia that Poland grabbed, no Polish minority there. That was why Slovakia in 1939 ‘participated in Nazi invasion of Poland’ – they took the two Slovak districts back, you don’t declare a war to do that.
I agree with you that UK-French behaviour was despicable – they had a simple goal to direct Hitler’s aggression toward east. It eventually didn’t work. But Poland’s behaviour was also despicable, maybe less so, but as a neighbour almost worse.
Poland needs to stop mythologizing its own history and calm down with its self-pitying hysteria and aggressiveness towards others – there has been plenty in the Polish history that was immoral and wrong. Let’s move on.
‘… Computer experiments with “selfish” and less “selfish” individuals within a population have shown that on the long run, those population with fewer “selfish” individuals are more successful.’
The question here, though, might be which is the cause and which the effect.
After all, if you’re from an unsuccessful society, altruism could be futile.
For example, here I am in my somewhat dim-witted but basically honest, hardworking, and moral all-white provincial center.
The apocalypse comes, and the trucks stop stocking the Wal-mart, the power goes out, etc. It might or might not make sense for me to pitch in, unite with my neighbors, start community gardens, dam the local river for power, etc, etc.
If I lived in — say — Ferguson, Missouri, it would make less sense. There, maybe I’d better focus on seizing the available stocks of diesel fuel and ammunition for myself.
Again, your analysis fails due to chronology. It’s off by decades.
Harvard’s first Jewish President was Larry Summers, who started in 2001.
Yale’s first Jewish President started in 1993.
Columbia University’s first and only Jewish President led the University starting in 1980.
“God and Man at Yale” was published in 1951.
You can’t get the WASPs off of the hook.
It will be a very close victory.
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1279751689780764672
Nope, Jews had firmly taken control by the fifties.
AnonFromTN pretends to be a Russian so he projects his malevolent wishes
onto Poland. Poland (and the rest of central Europe) and Russia are two
separate civilizations with completely different concepts of reality so they
have always been and always will be culturally in competition. Russia has
almost always stood for tyranny and lawlessness whereas Poland has for
centuries been based on habeas corpus and the Roman law (not the British
common law).
Similarly, Poland represents a separate civilization from Western Europe.
I’d be horrified to be part of Western Europe (incl. Germany) with its
ignominious history of colonialism, transatlantic slave trade, and
scientific racism. For the latest example, note the loss of prestige
by W. Europe and the U.S. when examining how much better Central
Europe is handling the Covid menace. Predictably, Russia being
a separate civilization, is also failing the Covid test.
Western Europeans and their descendants are the reason why whites are
so hated around the world.
I asked a Pole who’s lived in Britain since the 1950s who he socializes
with. He answered mostly with the Irish. The English (and the Scots
in London) are very clannish, and largely will not socialize with
someone whom they perceive as being from Eastern Europe
unless they perhaps go to the same university. Plus all countries
are more open to foreign women than foreign men. Foreign men
are seen as sexually threatening so they tend to be rejected.
The U.S. is much more open in its hospitality than the U.K.,
especially California, the Northeast, and to lesser extent the
South. The Midwest tends to be the most inhospitable to foreigners,
unless they are African. Then they’ll go out of their way to show
they are not racist.
Re: American lack of moderation having to do with the large German
contingent
That’s how I feel as well. I was going to write a post on “Why are Americans
so violent?” Examples: The only country use nuclear weapons; Invasion
of Korea; Invasion of Vietnam; Invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq; Destruction
of Libya; very high murder rates, etc A major factor I think is the enormous
number of German Americans, at least 30 million (exact number is hard to
ascertain due to ethnic mixing), so large that in the 18th century German
almost became the national language of the U.S.
Re: Germany runs the EU
Only because it happens to have the largest population
in the EU, and not because of the abundance of political
skills.
The standard joke about Germans at American universities is expressed
in the saying, “You cannot bore a German.” Reading about science may
be interesting but actually doing science is for most of us extremely
boring. So Germans, with their high levels of functioning autism, are
ideally suited for scientific research, which, for the same reason makes
them totally unsuited for politics.
For the sake of fairness I ought to add that in W. Europe
I have a tremendous weakness for France. Poland and France
used to be close. Now this may become difficult due to the
large (and growing) percentage of non-Christian minorities.
As a result, France seems to be looking more and more toward
the Mediterranean and toward Africa.
Still it was possible for the Polish director Andrzej Żuławski to
marry Sophie Marceau, the French beauty, and have children
with her. Juliette Binoche who is part Polish was incredible in
Krzysztof Kieślowski’s Three Colors. A famous Polish chef who
has his own TV show still owns a castle in France. So there is
still a degree of closeness on the personal level
One more item: I don’t want to sound like I’m harsh toward the Russians.
They are fellow Slavs, and they’ve had to deal with a very unforgiving climate
and terrain. Plus they were ruled by foreigners like the Romanov dynasty
which was 90% German. On some level I love the Russians and Ukrainians.
They’ve suffered so much. When I think of Russia I often think of the Volga
boatmen and their song. One of my relatives, although Polish, worked
all over Russia many many years ago, so I have a family connection
to Russia