The Atlantic’s Olga Khazan reveals that Russian-American Jews strongly support Trump.
“I don’t like big government,” Sundeyeva said. She made two circles with her thumbs and forefingers and pressed them against each other so they touched, like binoculars. This Venn diagram represents the interests of people and government, she said. “They don’t have very much in common.”
Today, she’s not a registered Republican, but like many of the readers of her newspaper, she said she’s starting to lean toward supporting Donald Trump for president. The other self-styled outsider in the race, though, holds no appeal for her. The only Bern she and many other Russians here are feeling is the one in the banya.
Although American Jews are overwhelmingly liberal, spearheading socially progressive initiatives like gay marriage and reliably voting for the Democrats, this absolutely does not apply to Russian-American Jews.
Actually that entire Atlantic article pretty much confirms everything I wrote in my popular 2012 article The 5 Types of Russian American, in which I called this particular demographic group “Sovok Jews” – an ironic reference to their retention of conservative Soviet habits while flip-flopping 180 degrees from the Communist internationalism espoused by their grandparents under the early USSR to the libertarian and Israeli Firster outlooks they harbor today.
Furthermore, the USSR’s early philo-Semitism reversed from later Stalinism on, with rhetoric about “rootless cosmopolitanism” and “anti-Zionism” even as the US became highly pro-Israel. In a neat ideological reversal, Soviet Jews in America whose parents had sung Communism’s praises turned to libertarianism and neoconservatism, and in the 2000’s, most became hardcore anti-Putinists. …
Yet while they harbor little love for Russia, Jewish Russian-Americans continue to speak Russian among themselves, play durak and eat borscht, and recite Radio Yerevan jokes. They remain stuck in the Soviet attitudes and tastes that they brought with them to American shores; arguably, far more so than ethnic Russians (who have co-evolved with post-Soviet Russia).
Back to The Atlantic article:
Menaker and Sundeyeva are part of a small circle—indeed, they know each other. Like with any immigrant group, the political views of Russians in the United States range widely. Ilya Strebulaev, a Russian-American and a finance professor at Stanford, said the left-leaning Russians he knows outnumber the right-leaning ones.
That is correct. Moreover, I would point out that as an academic, the type of Russians Ilya Strebulaev knows would be mostly fellow Egghead Emigres: The academics who fled Russia in the 1990s when scientific funding collapsed. Most of them are moderates, with little interest in and no talent for politics – I suspect Bernie Sanders would come first and Donald Trump second amongst them – which in practice puts them well to the left of Sovok Jews:
While they are now almost uniformly well-off, the Egghead Emigre lacks the Sovok Jew’s entrepreneurial drive, and as such there are very few truly rich among them. But on second thought this ain’t that surprising. Academia is a very safe environment (in terms of employment) and guarantees a reliable cash flow and career progression but it won’t make you a millionaire. The truly entrepreneurial Soviet academics have long since abandoned academia and made big bucks in the business world. …
As you may have deduced, the Egghead Emigre shares many similarities with the Sovok Jew. Nonetheless, many of them still retain a few patriotic vestiges; and politically, they are considerably to the left, with social democratic, socialist, and even Communist leanings being common (whereas Sovok Jews are right-leaning, ironically, unlike purely American Jews who tend to be more leftist). Though not many are still much interested in Russian politics, those who are typically vote for Prokhorov/Yabloko or the Communist Party.
Back to The Atlantic article:
Still, some researchers have found that Russian Jews tend to be both less religious than their American counterparts and more conservative. According to preliminary data from a survey being conducted by Sam Kliger, director of Russian-Jewish Community Affairs at the American Jewish Committee, between 60 and 70 percent of Russian-speaking Jews will vote Republican in this election. About that same percentage of American Jews backed Barack Obama in 2012.
With the exception of the LARPier elements of the White Russians, all Russian-Americans are strongly secular.
This is one of the main reasons why most Sovok Jews have no great enthusiasm for Ted Cruz, even though he positively fawns over Israel.
Many of them are torn between Cruz and Trump. “Cruz, I like that he’s conservative,” said Shkolnikov. “But what is not appealing to me is that he sounds like he’s preaching all the time. Maybe it’s because I’m Jewish, but I don’t like when Christians are preaching too much.”
About Trump, she says, “I don’t like his personality, but I like all his ideas.” …
“He’s a successful businessman,” he said. “He’ll be able to work with people. Plus, a guy who’s not a politician won’t be able to promulgate big government for its own sake.”
But Trump makes up with his entrepreneurial charisma, and any shortage of enthusiasm he might exude as regards support for Israel, he mores than makes up with his surfeit of opposition towards Islam and general ‘Murica! can-do attitude relative to the other candidates.
I would note here that Sovok Jews are highly nationalistic. I wouldn’t even call most of them neocons. Of course neoconservatism for all intents and purposes is Jewish nationalism, but its adherents hide it behind nauseous rhetoric about American exceptionalism and the necessity of spreading democratic values to every last mudhole on the planet. First generation Sovok Jews – at least, those who don’t go into politics or journalism – don’t care for appearances and are much more honest about their outright hate for Palestinians, Hezbollah, Iran, Islam, and anyone and everyone else that threatens Israel.
(For context: In Israel, this Sovok Jew demographic votes for the ultranationalist but not particularly religious Israeli politician Avigdor Lieberman).
Of course Trump does have his risks.
It escalated until Wolfson rose up out of his seat, shouting. “Do you really want Trump to be your president? He’s going to sell you! He will sell you tomorrow to the Arabs!”
After all maybe the anime-obsessed Alt Righters waxing rhapsodically on Twitter about how Trump will drive out the (((merchants))) are correct after all? /s
Others at the party seemed more conflicted, particularly when it came to abortion, which was widespread and normalized in the Soviet Union. “We have become successful and comfortable within capitalism,” said Gina Budman. “On the other hand, I really am adamantly pro-choice. And I would love to see education that is less expensive. I am for gay rights.”
They are lured, though, by the GOP’s more vociferous support for Israel, a country where many Russian Jews have friends and relatives. For some, this was a source of hesitation about Trump, the Republican front-runner, who said he’d be “sort of a neutral guy” on Israel.
Hard choices, hard choices…
FWIW, my own personal observations (n = ~10) bear all this out.
A couple of weeks ago I was meeting with a Jewish Russian and his Putin’s Expat (Russian) Russian wife. Although they had some major political differences – essentially, she is a pro-Putin Russian nationalist, while he is an anti-Putin Jewish nationalist (which I suspect causes no shortage of friction between them) – they were both conservatives and strong Trump supporters and both said they’d vote for Hillary out of spite if the Republicans were to cheat Trump out of the nomination.
Apart from his foreign policy positions they like most other main classes of Russian-Americans also really like his forthright style:
But their views provide insight into the rise of Trump, a phenomenon that has bewildered many liberals. Several of the guests said they appreciate Trump’s tendency to “say what people are thinking”—a definite plus in a culture not exactly known for being timid.
“We are so tired of not being able to say what we want,” Sundeyeva said. “[Trump] says politically incorrect things.”
But the children of Sovok Jews are becoming SJWs:
Several people at Menaker’s house lamented that their adult children are turning out to be more liberal than they are. (“Our children are all brainwashed already,” Menaker said.)
As I pointed out in my article on Russian-Americans, the offspring of Sovok Jews – secular like their parents, but far more liberal – are converging with the American Jewish mainstream.
But as the USSR is dead, this Soviet identity has no future; the children of Sovok Jews tend to undergo complete Americanization.
The one child of Sovok Jews whom I know quite well emigrated from Belarus at an early age and is a socialist who has been involved with Occupy Wall Street and has spent a good part of his time these past few months designing a slick website purporting to demolish “corporate media lies” about Bernie Sanders.
So is the authors father an “egghead emigre”? I seem to recall reading that he was an academic.
Many of the older generation of Jews grew up where the differences were forcefully (as in rocks and baseball bat over the noggin ) apparent. From obit of Alfred Sherman, once an adviser to Thatcher
He did not have to emigrate to go that way.
http://www.salon.com/2015/03/18/neocons_racial_bait_and_switch_how_john_podhoretz_excuses_blatant_bigotry/
Goldberg vs Podhoretz junior
http://media.salon.com/2015/03/Screen-Shot-2015-03-17-at-10.43.56-AM.png
Lieberman was a Sovok Jew himself–from Moldavia, if memory serves.
György Aczél, not Tamás. He was cultural boss of the party, but probably the closest friend of Kádár, the general secretary, so more influential than his position alone would imply.
Aczél’s aim was to prove that 1956 had basically been a huge pogrom. He was also eager to prove that post-1956 the regime was no longer Jewish. Irving wanted to prove that pre-1956 (the most brutal period in Hungary) communism was 100% Jewish, and so obviously 1956 was against the Jews. It was a marriage made in heaven.
Faggot Anatoly doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Most Russian Jews in Israel vote Likud, not Yisrael Betenieu. YBT is also in favor of bringing in more ethnic Russian trash, not a popular positions amongst Russian Jews who generally dislike Russians. YBT gets its votes from secular arab haters, both Russian and otherwise, who are sick of the Likud and Russian goyim. The overwhelming majority of Russian Jews in Israel absolutely do not vote for Lieberman. Of course, Anatoly doesn’t know that because he is gay.
Notice that faggot Anatoly lives in the US like most of the other Putin loving Russian nationalists in the alt right. He doesn’t live in Russia because Russia sucks balls and is a dying country.
By the way, I’m still waiting for you homo Putin worshippers to tell me when Putin will finally do something to help the Palestinians. Anatoly and The Saker sure don’t seem willing to answer.
This is pretty much all true.
In the part of Brooklyn where I live there was a big blow-up a few years ago during a State Senate race between a former Soviet Jew named Storobin and an American Jew named Fidler with Fidler accusing Storobin of ties with neo-Nazis and skinheads because Storobin once interviewed on his web site a White South African politician who supports a separate White state in South Africa. This is all described here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/10/nyregion/in-brooklyn-senate-race-between-fidler-and-storobin-takes-a-nasty-turn.html?_r=1
A little glimpse of the culture clash. You could just draw a thought bubble over Storobin’s head saying “what does the White vs. Black thing have to do with Nazism? What is he on about?”
But Anatoly is right in saying that the younger generation of former Soviet Jews is assimilating in the American Jewish direction.
So much homo in one post. Projection much?
Re-Palestine. One – I don’t care about Palestinians. Two – I am also not The Saker. If all goyim look the same to you that’s not my problem.
Re-Russia. I am not a politician and as such don’t owe any explanations for my life choices to anyone – least of all JIDF trolls/lunatic asylum outpatients (cross out as appropriate). In the meantime, feel free to acquaint yourselves with the false dilemma fallacy.
[You could just draw a thought bubble over Storobin’s head saying “what does the White vs. Black thing have to do with Nazism? What is he on about?”]
Or, “Will someone get this guy off the roof?”
Uh, how about never? It’s not part of his job description. You may not be aware of this, but Putin was elected by Russians to defend Russian national interests. Palestinians have a few hundred million fellow Arabs and a billion other Muslims who should help them first. We all know how well that’s worked out so far.
Then why are you here? Are you so self absorbed that you think that anybody in the alt right gives a shit about Putin outside of the delusion that he is the man who will take down Israel?
Oh wait, you are a Russian. OF COURSE you think that anglos are interested in Russia’s internal politics for their own sake. Because the world revolves around Russia.
Why are you here, jew?
Why are you making statements about Israel’s internal politics?
My understanding is that the Ashkenazi Jews tend to vote left, whereas the Mizrahim tend to vote likud, despite the Ashkenazi preponderance in both parties. At least thats the assumption made in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f80NnYflDU8
My favorite Talmudist is back!
Anatoly left enough of his nationalist cousins back home in Russia to elect Putin.
I’m sure Russia will long outlast the Zionist Entity, which, as one eminent Iranian statesman put it, “is destined to vanish from the pages of history.”
Are you so self-absorbed as to think that the only reason we goyim might admire a statesman is because of his position on Israel? We all know that Putin is not opposed to Israel; he is, however, clearly opposed to ‘Greater Israel’ – and the Syrians thank him for it.
Ironically, it is the Iranian people, not just the Iranian state, who are destined for annihilation. Lebanese people as well. And Arab Christians.
The difference between us is that you talk about annihilating us, but we actually do annihilate your pet groups. We’ve displaced the Palestinians, destroyed Arab Christendom, turned Gaza into a wasteland and turned Syria, Iraq and Lybia from functioning states into a collection of warring tribes. You… have typed out blog posts on Unz.
I’d take our track record over yours.
Are you aware of the fact that Israel has no become the gay capital of the world, seriously do a Google search on recent news on this. Those that support Israel are literally the real fags here.
[Storobin is supporting Cruz, see Observer article at bottom of rant]
Sorry, no it’s not “all true.” I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Russian Jews “strongly support Trump.” They might like Trump more than your average San Franciscan, but they also like Cruz. In the Atlantic article several people liked Cruz, and there was criticism of Trump as well as praise.
The New York primary is on Tuesday and we’ll have a much better idea of how much Russian Jews (who are registered Republicans ) like Trump. Brooklyn has the largest Russian speaking community in the U.S.
Trump will do very well on Staten Island and Long Island. I suspect Cruz will do relatively well in Russian-Jewish areas in Brooklyn. [The recent Optimus poll had Trump at 47% in NY CD 9, versus 49 statewide, over 50% on Long Island, and 70% on Staten Island]
As for personal observations, I know Russian Jewish Republicans in Brooklyn who like Cruz and even Kasich. The one guy who is leaning towards voting for Trump actually likes Cruz more but thinks Trump will do better vs Hillary. I haven’t met any Trump supporters who will vote for Hillary if the Republicans “steal the nomination from Trump.”
In Brooklyn plenty of Russian Jews and their children religious, very few are SJW. Local conditions matter.
Also Storobin is backing Cruz. The Observer article below does say Trump has a lot of fans in Brighton Beach and that Storobin knows a lot of people supporting Trump. Does that mean he knows a lot of republicans in New York who like Trump or is this specifically about Russian areas, are these registered republicans or just “people.” The Observer is owned by Ivanka’s husband so they might be exaggerating Trump’s support.
http://observer.com/2016/04/why-is-ted-cruz-hanging-out-in-brooklyn/
David Storobin, like many other Republicans, knows a lot of people supporting Mr. Cruz’s arch-rival, Donald Trump, for president.
“They all give the same answer,” he said. “They’re sick and tired of political correctness. He says the things that are not supposed to be necessarily said and they like that.”
But Mr. Storobin, an attorney, is backing Mr. Cruz, and helping to introduce him to the borough’s conservative Russian-American and Jewish community. Galvanizing Russian immigrants and Orthodox Jews angry at the political system…Mr. Storobin has remained politically active, hoping that Mr. Cruz’s unvarnished conservatism can win over his neighbors in heavily Russian Brighton Beach, where Mr. Trump’s bomb-throwing has many fans.
“What plays well is something [Mr. Cruz] was criticized for, mainly that people said he got into fights with a lot of his colleagues, calling the Republican leadership liars,” Mr. Storobin said, referring to the time Mr. Cruz branded Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell a “liar.” “The reality is we on the ground have been calling them liars for a long time.”
I haven’t spoken about this with enough people here to judge whether Trump or Cruz will win this little demographic that I belong to. I’m voting for Trump, but I’m not a very representative person. Anatoly talked about a lot of things in this post besides the question of who former Soviet Jews will vote for in this primary. I agree with most of what he said, but I don’t really know if former Soviet Jews will vote for Trump over Cruz. They’ll definitely for the Republican candidate in November though.
In Brooklyn plenty of Russian Jews and their children religious, very few are SJW.
In the younger, Americanized generation, there are many more SWPLs than religious people. The number of SJWs would be small (most people, even most Jews, aren’t very political), but probably similar to the number of visibly-religious ones. The typical former Soviet Jew who’s interested in politics is conservative but secular – that’s one of the things that Anatoly got right there.
You sometimes hear locals say that Brighton Beach was heavily Black when Soviet Jews started settling there in the 1970s and that the first immigrants chased out the Blacks. I don’t know to what extent this bit of local folklore is true, though I guess old census reports could shed some light on that. But the fact that this story is told with pride here tells you something about the Soviet Jewish/American Jewish culture clash. Believe me, when Storobin was interviewing that South African guy, he did not think that he was doing anything un-Jewish, non-kosher or otherwise wrong.
But as I said, the younger generation is assimilating to American Jewish attitudes towards race and everything else.
From a nationalist perspective I’m a little bemused by the amount of libertarian support for Trump. Cruz has a more libertarian temperament (nerdier and more mild-mannered) and follows libertarian economic principles (low flat taxes and free trade). Trump, on the other hand is the closest thing the US has to a European nationalist/populist – moderate on public spending issues, sceptical of free trade, conservative on immigration and with an extroverted temperament to appeal to working class populists.
Ordinarily, Ron Paul voting libertarians wouldn’t touch Trump with a barge pole, but I guess it reached the point where they are just as annoyed by political correctness as most nationalists and populists.
“Anatoly talked about a lot of things in this post … I agree with most of what he said”
I am just confused about what you agree with. Yes Russian Jews are more Republican than American Jews. Yes, Russian Jews are pro-Israel. Yes some of their children are assimilating to local NYC and San Francisco norms and are becoming more liberal. Everything else in the post is highly questionable.
Are their children really “becoming SJWs”? As you say the number of SJW would be small. So .1% are becoming SJW? They had had Inteligentsia in the Soviet Union too.
Do they really like Trump’s style? Even the woman in the Atlantic article said “I don’t like his personality” I’ve talked to several who don’t like his style. They liked Mitt Romney’s style too, and Ted Cruz’s, and Rudy Gulianni. They just basically like republicans.
Are they secular? Relative to what? They started out as fairly secular but in Brooklyn they and they’re children become somewhat more religious. No most of them are not walking around in black hats. But some of them are.
As for who is going to get more votes Trump or Cruz or Kasich. I don’t really know either. Trump has 37% of the votes so far, but is supposed to get ~50% in New York State, and ~70% on Staten Island. He may very well get 50% in the Russian areas, but I would not be shocked if he only got 30%. I just haven’t seen any evidence that Russian Jews LOVE Trump or hate Trump.
I agree that that guys post was to use his favorite term gay, but where is the false dilemma in his post. There is nothing logically unsound in asking why someone how extols Russia and attacks the US bitterly and vehemently none the less lives there. No one is saying you have to live in Russia (although it would certainly make your arguments more persuasive), but why not live in Holland or France or any other country you don’t profess to loath.
Example.
When ever has Anatoly ‘professed to loathe’ the US? He may complain about a few things here and there, but then, don’t we all? That’s not quite the same thing as loathing.
“Moldavia”! Good for you. Shall we found a Bombay-Calcutta-Peking Society with a view to countering the Anglophone cultural cringe which would no doubt give up Munich for München if only the Germans weren’t too grown up to care? I note that Peking remains Pekino at Rome airport and the Indians haven’t pushed for ticketing to replace BOM for Mumbai, CCU for Kolkatta or MAA for Chennai.
Now Trump is likened to the God-Emperor of Mankind?
This article is misleading in that the majority of Jews from the Former Soviet Union living in the US – and especially in Brighton Beach – are not “Russian” at all but Ukrainian.
The Jews actually from Russia tend to be better educated and more assimilated than the Jews from the Ukraine. When you hear about all the elite Jewish scientists and academics from the FSU they are usually from Russia. In fact, Russian Jews tend to look down a bit on Ukrainian Jews and Georgian Jews and Jews from other FSU republics.
In any case, Jews from the FSU tend to vote Republican because they view the Democrats as big government. After living under Communism they despise big government.
I laughed.
Persia will outlast Israel. Shame they freed the Jews in ancient past.
In time, when enough Arabs and Muslims have been displaced into Europe and North America, the white man will pause and ask “is Israel worth all this?”
And when the rich Jews in the West have the spotlight turned on them all it takes is for one of them to go “they made me donate to Israel” for it all to come crashing down.
I mean, come on, if they were selling each other out during the Holocaust I can only imagine what the Jewish elites that finance Israel would do once they’re in hot water.
And Jews are not really known for their courage to actually defend their “land” save nuclear blackmail (“I’m here because my grandparents survived” is an example of excusing cowardice). No one doubts the equipment or material which Israel can muster, but it’s soldiers are beyond lacking in warrior-skills to say the least. Just because it had luck against a bunch of inbred falafels does not mean it’ll remotely come close to that success with Persia (Hezbollah is just a tiny finger of Iran and it’s giving Israel a headache).
Also Tel Aviv is like the gayest city on the planet (look it up). Only the Jews can turn the holy land into the unholy.
Hey, Greasy. As always, I’m glad you’re honest enough to admit that you’ve done all this. But why not be a little more truthful about how it was done? Isn’t it true that the Lobby was responsible for pushing the US to launch the so-called GWOT (aka War on Islam) to remake the MENA by regime changing those countries deemed hostile to the ZE, in order to enhance the security of the villa in the jungle?
So when you say “we’ve… turned Syria, Iraq and Lybia from functioning states into a collection of warring tribes,” don’t you really mean the dumb goy in the US did all this on your behalf?
It’s Putin’s ‘Israel-First’ characteristic that made him very popular among the Russian Jews. But that characteristic makes all pro-Israel Western leaders popular amongst the local Organized Jewry, such as, France, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, Ukraine, US, and Britain.
Vladimir Putin allegedly have Jewish family roots and has very close relation with former Israeli foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman, a radical Jew – I believe Putin has no interest in saving Bashar al-Assad or any Muslim nation-state from Israeli vultures for that matter. His only interest is to re-establish Soviet-era domination of the region.
Russia like China is still a colonial power. It’s still occupying several Muslim lands, such as, Crimea, Chechnya, Sochi, Siberia, Dagestan, and Ingushetia (Watch a video below).
https://rehmat1.com/2015/09/29/putins-syrian-paradox/
All these Slavs here commenting on the primaries and not a single mention of the only Slav candidate.
I suppose when you’ve go other, er, obsessions, certain normal thoughts go out the window.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kasich
What about Masha Gessen?
Apr 17, 2016 David Swanson – War is a Lie – Seattle April 15, 2016
Talk by David Swanson author of “War is a Lie” recorded April 15, 2016 at Town Hall Seattle.
https://youtu.be/3spLydTvTsg
I follow NYC’s Summary of Vital Statistics because I’m a big nerd who likes numbers. I noticed there years ago, when almost all USSR natives in NYC were still Jews, that RF natives were much more likely than Ukraine natives to live in Manhattan. Manhattan is more upscale, kind of like Moscow and St. Petersburg were back in the USSR. And this was before the gentrification trend in northern Brooklyn really gathered speed.
Jews from Moscow and St. Petersburg call pale-of-settlement Jews “mestechkoviye” – literally ” little towners”, but hicks would be a better translation.
Jews from Belarus and the Ukraine look at Moscow-born Jews like me the way US Blacks look at “Oreos” and Asians look at “bananas”.
Brighton is very Odessite, and the Moscow Jews who do live in Brooklyn live elsewhere.
The interesting thing is that this division, which is now often talked about in these neighborhoods and can even be noticed in official statistics, is so shallow historically.
Let’s say that in 1930 some ambitious Jewish guy left a small Ukrainian town for Moscow, while his brother did not. Well, their descendants behave differently on average in 2016. Sergey Brin whose picture Anatoly put up above is from Moscow. Let’s say that roughly 15% of Soviet Jews in America were born in Moscow or St. Petersburg. Among the 100 most successful ones that percentage would be much higher. Half wouldn’t surprise me.
Why do Soviet Jews vote Republican? It’s partly Israel, but it’s also other things. Most came to NYC in the early 90s when there was a serious deficit of law and order here. The FSU is the land that PC forgot, so the law and order situation was quickly (and correctly) understood by them in White vs. Black terms. Giuliani is still very popular in these areas for this reason, and his endorsement of the Donald will help.
When Hillary and Bernie talk about decreasing the Black incarceration rate, letting criminals out of jail, they’re not winning any votes among these people.
You’re completely nitpicking about this YBT vs Likud issue.
YBT is basically a slightly more extreme version of Likud with some russian identity politics thrown in (e.g. civil marriage).
If there was actually that much of a difference between the two they would have never joined together in the election before the last (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud_Yisrael_Beiteinu).
The rest of your rant is too incoherent to respond to.
Your understanding is mostly correct.
Secular Israeli Ashkenazis (the Tel Aviv set) are probably the only solidly leftwing jewish constituency in Israel.
But, religious Ashkenazis will vote right if they’re not totally off the deep end, haredi jews vote for their own parties which are mostly part of the right but are really just political prostitutes that join any govt that keeps the checks flowing into their yeshivas.
Russian Jews are also pretty strongly rightwing.
I didn’t watch the video but I’ve seen it in the past and iirc it downplayed the consistency of this division.
The so called “holocau$t” is a scam for racist Zionism.
see:
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DT/gcturen.html
U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum displays standard German air-raid shelter door, describing it as the door to a gas chamber at Majdanek
see text.
images:
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DT/gcturen_files/two-to-3.GIF
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DT/gcturen_files/doorcasting.jpg
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DT/gcturen_files/gsPANZERL.GIF
http://codoh.com/library/document/3276
Gas Van Film and Photo Fraud
German News Magazine and Simon Wiesenthal Center’s Museum Caught Faking Photo and Film Captions
By Santiago Alvarez
see the fraudulent 6M beginning in 1869
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/WhiteWolf722/TheSixMillionMyth.jpg
see:
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6915
The ‘6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:
http://www.codoh.com
No name calling, level playing field debate here:
http://forum.codoh.com
Also note that there is not a single verifiable excavated mass grave that can actually be SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka) even though Jews claim to know exactly where these allegedly enormous mass graves are.
The ‘holocaust’ storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.
There you are. You fled from our last interaction. Have you decided on a neutral forum to “demolish” me in?
Dear Greasy,
Hey man, ease up on the insults, please…
Anyway, from my understanding, the Haredi (like yourself?) are smaller in number but have lots of kids. (Are you cranking out kids – greasy or not – for the cause?) They are in fairly direct opposition to the secular Jews who are in population decline. Correct so far?
OK – now the majority of the scientific, political and military power of the technocratic nation-state structure belongs to those same secular ones who are not having enough kids. Are the Haredi going to take over all this physical and abstract infrastructure? Are they even capable?
Or are you coming at this from a purely faith-based perspective? If so, just remember to avoid any leaders that have a fault in one eye.
If not, it looks like the writing is on the wall, simply due to demographics. Why all this confidence in the chaos? It seems that a bonafide military historians like Martin Van Creveld are saying the worst thing Israel can do right now is to cause havoc and dismantle any of the surrounding nation-states. It seems to be counterproductive in that it makes Israel’s borders less secure and any backlash far more sanguinary.
One more thing; you never gave me a complete answer to an earlier query; Sam Shama had noted that Rambam had stated that Bani Ishamel have as much right to the land as Bani Ishaac. You confirmed the rank of Rambam among the Rabbinical tradition. Is that a valid ruling? If so, by what scholarship or evidence do you hold the opposite opinion?
You do realize if you (and people with your same standing) simply cast aside centuries worth of Orthodox tradition – why should anyone treat the position with any more respect than one should grant the fools of ISIS?
May God preserve you and yours.
Having you for lunch, yet again.
Jews are fond of ‘projecting’ their own crimes and faults upon others.
IOW, making false claims against other people that they in fact are guilty of. It’s to keep their opponents on the defensive and provide a system for free money, social preferences, & political power, all under the guise of ‘reparations’.
France can publish anti-Islam cartoons under free speech, but to be critical of Jews in any way is “antisemitic”, and illegal in Europe.
However that is changing. Especially in lieu of the now debunked ‘6M & gas chambers’. People are realizing how utterly unproven and scientifically impossible the ‘holocaust’ storyline is. It’s the ‘holocaust’ absurdities which give Jews power over others.
Remember, If it can’t happen as alleged, then it didn’t
fact: The ‘6M Jews’ nonsense was pushed in the 1800s continuously through WWII. It is an easily refuted lie.
Also, due to the very real genocide of Christians under the Soviet Communists. which was overwhelmingly Jew created, led, and dominated, there needed to be a smoke screen in order to distract the gullible public from the millions upon millions of those who died horrifically at the hands of Jews, so we got the contrived ‘gas chambers’ propaganda nonsense.
The impossible ‘holocaust’ narrative allows the truly racist Israeli parasites to get away with stealing billions from the US taxpayers every year, and then demand that US soldiers die for their greedy self interests.
We can live without them, they cannot live without us.
The laughable ‘holocau$t’ propaganda is an easily debunked, impossible as alleged Jewish supremacist scam.
http://www.codoh.com
discussion here:
http://forum.codoh.com
Look at you panic. Is there anything in there that’s not a C&P?
Jews Jews Jews – boring boring boring – the ideology makes no difference — commie Jews, fascist Jews, center Jews, Israeli Jews, American Jews, Russian Jews, UK Jews – they are all Mordecai Jews. Their answer is always some form of death to the people in their way – political, cultural, economic, or physical.
Jews are terrorized from birth by their culture. As children, they are fed paranoia that the rest of humanity wants to kill them. They are fortified with the notion that they are free from normal moral human bonds. They are given a pseudo-superiority complex, they are taught to be supper aggressive, and they are instilled with a command to always back their tribe. They are taught that winning trumps honesty. Few children can resist this fervent indoctrination. When a Jew reaches adulthood he is expected to live up to his “Mordecai Jewishness.” If not, he is expunged in some form or another.
There is an alternative to Mordecai in the Jew tradition – it is Moses the law giver. He said “thou shall not kill.” This extends to all forms of killing – cultural, economic, and physical.
The Jew have a moral choice to make – Mordecai or Moses? The world will not wait forever.
Rehmat, ol’ buddy, I’d drink a toast to salute Russia if they would occupy and colonize MORE “Muslim lands.” The less territory controlled by worshippers of the head-chopping pedophile prophet (Disgrace Be Upon Him) the better for Russians, for Americans, and for all civilized people.
Also, I think you need to read up a bit if you characterize the vast (and always very sparsely populated) territory of Siberia as a “Muslim land” in any meaningful sense.
Loathing US foreign politics does not equal to loathing the US, even if you try to convince yourself so vehemently about it.
Like Israeli historian Israel Shahak, I always pity the readers of Jewish Talmud like you. I’m sure you never forget to say your holy prayer in the morning before you get out bed with some Israeli whore; “Thanks G-d for not making me a Gentile, a Woman or a Slave.”
On December 14, 2015, two pro-Israel Jewish propaganda outlets, Washington Post and ABC News released result of their poll, asking participants whether American think Islam encourages violence. The poll found that only 28% of Americans agreed with the question (their information based on Jewish/Zionist Jingoism), while 54% called Islam a peaceful religion.
Reformed Rabbi Allen S. Maller, led Temple Akiba in Culver City, CA for 39 years before retiring in 2006. He taught at University of Judaism in Las Angeles, and is author of several books and has penned columns for several Jewish publications. Rabbi Maller believes the West’s main problem with Islam is that it’s different philosophy from Judaism and Christianity. While both earlier Abrahamic religions got rid off religious ethics from politics, Islamic teachings refuse to separate religious ethics from politics and day-to-day social life.
https://rehmat1.com/2016/01/02/rabbi-maller-islam-is-religion-of-tolerance/
What is so progressive about something that Elagabalus did 1800 years ago. Even then decent people did not like that. Some progress.
Things are becoming desperate for the lying Zionist shysters as a righteous Jew speaks up.
Jew, Gerard Menuhin, the son of the famed Jewish violinist Yehuda Menuhin:
from:
TELL THE TRUTH & SHAME THE DEVIL
By GERARD MENUHIN
Copyright 2015 by GERARD MENUHIN and THE BARNES REVIEW
available at: https://shop.codoh.com/book/406
quotes from .pdf version, pagination may be slightly different:
p.173
also see:
‘quotes from Gerard Menuhin: Revisionist Jew, Son of Famous Violinist’
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10013
Haredi- using the internet? LOL
Sadly they are also indoctrinated with the impossible lie of 6,000,000 .
But they quickly find out that there’s a lot of money to be made & political power to be gained in promoting that fraud. They could just as well reject it, but then that’s why they have such a miserable reputation, instead of honesty they strive for money & dominance, the phony ‘6M’, has heretofore been profitable for them. Honesty doesn’t matter to some.
Nonetheless, the world is finding out about the real history of racist supremacist Jews.
Black researcher, Dr. Tony Martin, let’s us know who the prime owners of slaves really were.
see:
Suppressing Jewry’s Role in Slavery / Familiar Tactics
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7909
and:
Dr. Tony Martin – The Jewish Role in the African Slave Trade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut7I75Q_-zA
and there’s this gem:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5205
Methinks you are a faggot since you use the word so much!
Time will tell. You Zios have a tendency to encourage hatred against you! Your post is perfect for this
You are so monotonous.
Did you get any news members at CODOH by way of Unz? I’d bet $100 you haven’t.
🙂
But seriously, they are anti-secular NOT Luddites…
Here’s more on your impossible ‘gas chambers’:
This is what Voltaire had to say:
and an admission:
The ‘holocau$t’, falling apart faster than a cheap suit.
Hello Talha,
You are asking a question to which he doesn’t have an answer. I am no great scholar on the matter [I tend to speed read and absorb as much as I can, and old Hebrew is, well old] In the Shulchan Aruch [which is literally the ‘High Chair’ of justice, formed in Hellenic tradition] the fatally faulty reading of Genesis 16:12 is discussed by the Sanhedrin. Certainly Sarai plotted to have Hagar an Ishmael expelled from the land, yet G’d bestowed Ishmael and Hagar with the same blessings of strength and fruitfulness; and this was communicated to Avraham; which is precisely why Ishmael came to his father’s funeral to uphold the letter and spirit of the covenant, which was given to both Yitzhak and Yishmael. The contemporary nonsense that you hear are from the militant, low IQ idiots of the the Kahane haredic sects, who in my own experience know very little of the Mishnah, Talmud or the Zohar. The rest of course [which matters for practical purposes] is basic human greed and covetousness.
Israel’s technological, civil, judicial, commercial and intellectual modernity is controlled by the secular Hilonim, whose average IQs are far higher than that of the black-hats [think of the difference between an IQ of 115-120 or higher, with that of 85-90. How do I know? Well Tel Aviv University had a study done some 10 years ago. I’ll find it]. Unfortunately, the haredim are forming opportunistic coalitions with Likud, and thus the smell of rot. The day we are gone [to the U.S, Europe and elsewhere], Israel will be just another rotten ME country with nukes. Obviously this path needs to be blocked. How do we do it?
Jews say these photos are proof that 600,000, Jews were allegedly murdered at Chelmno:
http://s24.postimg.org/4h5j4kv05/ghetto1.jpg
http://s23.postimg.org/850hp2gij/ghetto2.jpg
Hilarious!
And if the alleged ‘holocaust’ was fact, then why are there laws in Europe to prevent scrutiny of it? What kind of “truth” needs to imprison people to prevent free speech?
Read research which demolishes the impossible ‘6M Jews’ canard:
‘Holocaust Handbooks’
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?main_page=1
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/Holocaust-Handbooks-1min-640×360.mp4
Hi Sharon – did you gave that information to the American Netanyahu, Abraham Foxman when his was whining from both ends of his fatso Zionist body by pleading US Congress to get those miserable Jews from Russia?
There are nearly one million Russian Jews living in Israel including the former FM Avigdor Lieberman. However, there 350,000 ‘untouchable Jews’ in Israel mostly from USSR who cannot have their marriages solemnize by a rabbi because these Zionist idiots don’t have a written certificate to prove that their mothers were bona-fide Jewish…..
https://rehmat1.com/2009/08/08/350000-harijan-jews-in-israel/
Now you’re not even responding to posts and are posting links to commercial websites. At what point are you just spamming?
tl;dr incoming
Anatoly started it. He maliciously lied about Russian Jews and then accused me of being “gay” when I called him on it.
Sadly the secular/traditional (traditional is code for low class Sephardim who are almost never truly secular, there are probably more atheistic Palestinians than working class Sephardim) are not in absolute decline. For some reason nobody can figure out they continue to crank out kids at an above replacement rate despite the fact that the country is already horribly overcrowded. Where the hell do they think we are going to put them?
However, we have more kids then they do and they know it and are panicking. If they hadn’t brought in a million Russian non Jews in the 90s we would already be in control of the country. They can’t play that trick again.
No I don’t have any kids. Last thing the world or the Jewish people needs is more copies of my crappy genetics.
In 2016? No way. You are talking about people where a large percentage of the male population has never even heard of basic things like algebra, a people who essentially don’t even know how to get dressed in the morning without first consulting a rabbi. , they def aren’t ready to take over running a functional state. Well, the women might be but definitely not the men. In 50 years though, I think so.
Let’s put it this way, I’m pretty well versed in Jewish theology and I’ve never even heard that ruling discussed, so if Rambam ever said as much, it didn’t become a part of larger Jewish position.
I think sometimes people often confuse Maimonides position on Islam (very positive) with his position on the Arab people (very negative; people were more racist back then so I don’t hold it against him despite the fact that I kinda like non Christian/non Lebanese Arabs aside from the whole war thing). If he said the Arabs had a right to the Land of Israel, that would be extremely out of character.
YBT supports civil marriage, supports bringing in more Russian goyim, supports selling pork in Israel and even supports dividing Jerusalem. YBT is for hedonists who hate Arabs AND Judaism. Likud is for hedonists who hate Arabs but make a pretense of respecting Judaism. Likud is bad, but nowhere near as awful as YBT and it is simply a fact that most Russian Jews do not vote for YBT. Saying that they do is a malicious lie. I doubt more than a third of Russian Jews in Israel (not Russian goyim) vote for YBT.
Ah sorry. Her being a journalist is pretty damning to that field
you vote for shas, I assume?
The diseugenic policies of the charedim plus genetic load from inbreeding probably contribute. On a further note, these studies might prove bad for Anatoly’s theory of a high iq breeding reservoir in the ultra-orthodox.
I’m American, not Israeli, so I don’t vote in Israeli elections. I’m also Ashkenazi so even were I Israeli a Sephardic nationalist party doesn’t have much to offer me. The only thing I like about Shas is their cool name (for our goyish readers, Shas is an acronym for the Sephardic Torah Guardians… I guess in Hebrew that creates the Shas acronym).
If I lived in Israel I don’t know if I’d vote for UTJ or just not vote at all. Prob UTJ.
All that stuff Shama said about haredim having a lower IQ is bullshit. Haredi women make up a big portion of Israel’s high tech workforce.
“Sadly they are also indoctrinated with the impossible lie of 6,000,000 .”
The Jew use of the words holocaust and terrorist to control America. Unjustifiable shame and fear are used to control the good American people. How low – how foul are these Jews?
How many times a day does FOX slam the word “terrorist” down our throats?
Say “Jew” and at the the top of society the word “holocaust” is 1,000,000,000th of a second away.
Jews control the establishment – but “we the people” distrust the top – people are starting to put Jew and establishment together seeing them as one. The truth will out – it is only a matter of time.
Was that before the golden calf (because gold > god, of course…) or after when Moses told them to ‘Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.’
It’s a religion as corrupt and ass backwards as Islam, if not worse. There is no alternative.
Go swing a chicken over your head, freak.
Shas is a Sephardi party now but was founded by an Ashkenazi, Eliezer Schach. I assume you’d vote Degel ha-Torah rather than AY?
Personally, I’m a Meretznik. Maybe Maki back in the day.
Of course you don’t, because what you know about the Third Reich would echo in a thimble.
Now go post a link to CODOH threads where you “own me,” you freak.
I suspect the masses of former libertarian electors are not quite coterminous with most committed intellectual libertarians and were more interested in libertarianism for its contrarianism rather than for its ideas, which if expounded in the thorough form most of their greatest exponents tended to advocate probably don’t appeal to more than 0,7% of the population.
I’m not going to get involved in this debate because it’s retarded on all sides, but it’s obvious that, like a lot of people who quote the Rambam (including your more famous near namesake) you don’t know a great deal about him.
[ז] הַמִּילָה–נִצְטַוָּה בָּהּ אַבְרָהָם וְזַרְעוֹ בִּלְבָד, שֶׁנֶּאֱמָר “אַתָּה וְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ, לְדֹרֹתָם” (בראשית יז,ט). יָצָא זַרְעוֹ שֶׁלְּיִשְׁמָעֵאל, שֶׁנֶּאֱמָר “כִּי בְיִצְחָק, יִקָּרֵא לְךָ זָרַע” (בראשית כא,יב). וְיָצָא עֵשָׂו, שֶׁהֲרֵי יִצְחָק אָמַר לְיַעֲקוֹב “וְיִתֶּן-לְךָ אֶת-בִּרְכַּת אַבְרָהָם, לְךָ וּלְזַרְעֲךָ” (בראשית כח,ד)–מִכְּלָל שְׁהוּא לְבַדּוֹ זַרְעוֹ שֶׁלְּאַבְרָהָם הַמַּחְזִיק בְּדָתוֹ וְדַרְכּוֹ הַיְּשָׁרָה, וְהֶם הַמְּחֻיָּבִין בַּמִּילָה.
י [ח] אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים שֶׁבְּנֵי קְטוּרָה, שְׁהֶם זַרְעוֹ שֶׁלְּאַבְרָהָם שֶׁבָּאוּ אַחַר יִשְׁמָעֵאל וְיִצְחָק–חַיָּבִין בַּמִּילָה. וְהוֹאִיל וְנִתְעָרְבוּ הַיּוֹם בְּנֵי יִשְׁמָעֵאל בִּבְנֵי קְטוּרָה, יִתְחַיְּבוּ הַכֹּל בַּמִּילָה בַּשְּׁמִינִי; וְאֵין נֶהְרָגִין עָלֶיהָ.
Now:
1) The covenant of milah is the right to the land.
1) The second halacha is certainly the minority opinion. Most authorities say this only applied to the first generation.
It’s also fairly clear that you don’t know what the Shulhan Aruch even is. Suffice, to say the Sandhedrin don’t discuss anything in the Shulhan Aruch, which is a medieval code that does not deal with laws pertaining to the land of Israel, and a Shulhan is a table, not a chair.
Now, dealing with he post itself. It’s simply not true that neoconservatism is Jewish Nationalism wrapped in a veneer of universalist warmongering. It’s possible that the earliest generations of neoconservatives knew that their democracy rhetoric was just exoterism (though Israel was not their concern), but even if so, those days are long gone. It’s perfectly true that neocons believe that their policies are good for Israel, but it’s also true that they believe their policies to be good for America, and for most of the world. Though people like to forget it, there was a time when lots of people agreed with them. The manifest failure of their Iraq policy, scotched that and what remains are the impervious true believers, which exist in any political movement.
Examples of occasions when neoconservatives and Israeli nationalists took opposing positions include
1) In Egypt, Israeli nationalists supported propping up the Mubarak’s regime, whereas neoconservatives supported the “pro-democracy” revolution, which turned out to be a Muslim Brotherhood revolution.
2) In eight years of a neoconservative dominated Bush administration, the American government refused to recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and refused to recognize the annexation of the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, whereas all Israeli nationalists support this.
3) Israeli nationalists have constructively engaged with Putin’s Syria policy, whilst neoconservatives have, to put it mildly, had a hissy fit about it.
The neocon agenda for the Middle East was briefly popular amongst the Israeli right, it’s most committed defenders were HBD-denying Russian emigres such as Natan Sharansky, since then it has lost popularity, as everywhere else, because it clearly does not work. People have a hard time trying to state why it doesn’t work, so they lash out and accuse the neocons of really intending all the disasters they have brought about. As an HBD blogger you can actually explain what was wrong with their plan whilst conversely, denying that people really believe the opinions they espouse and believe something else entirely, just demeans you.
What’s AY? I’d probably vote for UTJ just to spite the secular even though I don’t agree with their theology.
Shas is a bit of a fraud, anyway. They talk Sephardi pride but then they send their kids to Ashkenazic yeshivas.
Ovadia Yosef founded shas, not schach
Indeed, those at http://www.forum.codoh.com have demolished every lying Zionist scammer like yourself, that’s your problem, not mine.*
In fact, the articles & comments here at unz.com reveal an undeniable movement that rejects lying Zionists like yourself. They are on to you and those like you. IOW, you are losing.
Anyway, on with the truth we go.
Indeed, the impossible ‘6M & gas chambers’ has hoodwinked too many for too long.
The “holocaust’ Industry’s Potemkin Villages, aka ‘holocaust museums’ are pure theme park theatre.
Dare to examine the absurd & laughable ‘holocaust’ storyline rationally, logically, and scientifically and it falls apart like the house-of-cards that it is.
Who Profits?
‘Is 1% too much to ask?’
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10206
‘Himmler’s note infers Hitler knew of liquidation?’
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2143
‘Alleged “mass graves” according to T. Darwin / Andrew Mathis’
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9414
‘Andrew Mathis on Dachau, Majdanek, Auschwitz, Treblinka’
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9228
Anecdotal evidence & “holocaust survivors”
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9238
holocaust’ denial article by Andrew Mathis debunked here’
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2816
‘Prof. Mc Nally dissects HHP’s Andrew Mathis’ bogus article’
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2841
‘Holo. Hist. Proj.’s Andrew Mathis on Zyklon scent removal’
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2499
‘Green, Mathis refuted / cyanide: lice, humans, & more’
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=267
‘Believer org. spokesman, Andrew Mathis, demolished in debate’
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=254
‘Holo. Hist. Proj.’s Andrew Mathis attempts damage control’
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2498
‘Email from Andrew Mathis (The Holocaust History Project)’
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1526
‘holocaust’ History Project to unveil section on Treblinka’
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=280
AY = Agudas Yisroel, the oldest extant Jewish political party in history.
It’s the other faction in UTJ, other than Degel ha-Torah.
AY is dominated by Chasidim, and D”T by Misnagdim.
Looking at the Wiki article, it seems you’re right, although it notes that Schach was important in providing “strategic help and guidance.”
Quit desperately begging the http://www.unz.review.com moderator for help.
You’re being demolished every step of the way.
That’s some bullshit right there.
I also did not want to start the debate on this forum. [Whatever my ‘almost namesake’ (Simon?) says about Rambam is likely well researched. He is a real historian].
The debate on the relevant halacha has been a running one. [I won’t get into it here].
Also it is pretty clear to me you are not a native Hebrew speaker. You learn’t Hebrew in an American institution, most likely a Yeshiva in Brooklyn. Shulhan is a table, however when someone in Israel says ‘Shev be noach al ha Shulchan’, the meaning is ‘Sit comfortably on the chair by the table’ and not ‘Sit comfortably on the table’!!! The received understanding of Shulhan Aruch is also ‘High Chair’ not ‘High Table’. Enough said on that. The Sanhedrin who sat in the Lishkat HaGazit of the Temple Mount, to the Beth HaMidrash Sanhedrin are the seminal sources of the idea of Shulhan Aruch of the Medieval times.
Look, this discussion can be like an infinite loop. No intention of doing it here. I assume you understand ‘Lo be shamayim hi’. First and foremost the Sanhedrin taught us to understand that all the Patriarchs commanded us to conform to the accepted laws and customs of the nation and period we live in. In our case that would be the clear pronouncements of International Law.
By what? Relentless repetition? You’re beneath me. Bugger off.
Shulhan is a table, however when someone in Israel says ‘Shev be noach al ha Shulchan’, the meaning is ‘Sit comfortably on the chair by the table’ and not ‘Sit comfortably on the table’!!!
Yeah, because in this case the particle על means, as it often does “by”, not on.
The received understanding of Shulhan Aruch is also ‘High Chair’ not ‘High Table’.
No, the received understanding of Shulhan Aruch is “laid table” (or more literally “arranged table”_, as in the well known halacha that one must have a Shulhan Aruch for meals on Shabbat and Yom Tov.
The Sanhedrin who sat in the Lishkat HaGazit of the Temple Mount, to the Beth HaMidrash Sanhedrin are the seminal sources of the idea of Shulhan Aruch of the Medieval times.
You are blabbering. You can search high and low for the rest of your life and you will not find any Jewish source that says that the Arabs, or anyone else, have any right to any part of the Land of Israel.
As for Schama’s well-known incompetence in the field of Jewish history c.f. http://seforim.blogspot.co.il/2013/12/book-review-simon-schama-story-of-jews.html
As usual, you refute nothing because you cannot. I beat you every step of the way.
Here’s more:
‘Babi Yar ‘massacre’ debunked’
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=41
Ouch!
You are standing in a deep hole, I recommend that you stop digging.
However, onward we go:
Note that there is not a single verifiable excavated mass grave that can actually be SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka) even though Jews claim to know exactly where these allegedly enormous mass graves are.
Anyone who ever went to a seder and paid even the smallest amount of attention would know this…
Are you threatening me? I’d strongly suggest that you not do that.
‘Shev be noach al ha Shulchan’ means, literally, “Sit comfortably at the table.”
The word “chair” (‘kiseh,’ IIRC) doesn’t appear there.
Dear Greasy,
Just another quick question on the subject…Methinks I have kicked off something I had not intended to – all sorts of Jewish perspectives are piling on. I will respond to everything I have absorbed in a bit since it’ll take me time to formulate a good response.
For now…you mentioned Eretz Israel. Looking up a map, I found this to be the first google response:
http://www.ahavat-israel.com/eretz/eimages/future-map6.jpg
It seems that not only does this include the ancient wilderness of Paran, but also the city of Madinah. I really, really hope that is a minority opinion since there seem to be other maps, but many of them push well into the Hijaz. Otherwise, let me lose my composure for a bit…ARE YOU GUYS OUT OF YOUR MIND???!!!
Ahem…
Also, ease up on the Persian-bashing, they aren’t going anywhere.
May God preserve you and yours.
Also…
No sweat man, that’s why you only have to supply half the chromosomes – and that’s why we call them ‘our better halves’. There’s got to be a Greasy Jane out there somewhere – otherwise how are you going to outgrow those secular guys? Or you throw in your lot with us (much easier rules for food) and the world’s your oyster – Albanian, Somali, Malay – variety is the spice of life my friend. 😉
IOW, the more you talk the worse it becomes for your violent racist Zionist cause. Get a grip and try to follow along.
Now, moving on we have:
‘Majdanek – A microcosm of the holohoax’
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6373
I’m going to assume you weren’t threatening me, because I know how you roll, and physical confrontation doesn’t seem to be your thing.
Hey: Does your wife know how you spend your days? Be a shame if she found out…
Here’s yet more for Unz Review readers.
‘Living History: shrunken head & lampshade in 1945 and then in 1993′
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10240
This is too easy.
Well, Jonnie, time to pay the piper. You want to debate? Then debate. Let’s do Krema II, Leichenkeller 1.
I’ll give you 48 hours for you to respond with something other than a cut and paste, and then I’ll think about not cluing in Violeta to what you do all day and about whom.
Tu sabes que puedo escribir español, si?
There are several dozen eyewitnesses, including not only surviving Sonderkommando, but also SS officers. These eyewitnesses have testified over the course of 70 years on five continents without any evidence WHATSOEVER of coordination of their testimonies.
Four forensic examinations have found cyanide on the walls of the gas chamber. These levels are higher than would be there for a single fumigation but lower for what would be there were the room used as a fumigation chamber on a regular basis. The levels are consistent with the use of the room as a gas chamber as described by the dozens of eyewitnesses.
A document refers to this room as a Vergasungskeller. We know the room wasn’t a fumigation chamber, because they were in a different building. We also know it wasn’t an air raid shelter, because there’s no testimony to that effect. We know no gas was produced there because it would have been dangerous to do so in such close proximity to cremation ovens. That leaves essentially only one alternative.
Well I do like Arab/Iranian/Pakistani girls. I always joke with my mom that if she ever gets my severed head sent to her in the mail that its because I have hit on the wrong Muslimah and her brothers have decided to take me out. That’s why I like Latinas so much, all the exoticism of middle eastern girls and no angry brothers to kill you.
Re Iranians: why exactly are you so protective of Iranians? I thought you were a Sunni. What do you care about what happens to them?
Re borders of of Eretz Yisrael: There are two subjects that it is all but impossible to find straight answers on in Jewish theology: the afterlife and the borders of the Land of Israel. Its very frustrating. You can rest assured, however, that essentially no Jews support forcibly extending Israel’s current borders, most don’t even support holding on to its current borders.
The only rabbi that I have ever heard of who said that Israel should engage in offensive actions to enlarge it’s territory is the late Kahane. Perhaps some others do in private but I’ve certainly never heard it.
Actually, now that I think about it, it’s really surprising because there are so many extreme rabbis and yet none advocate using the military achieving Greater Israel. This suggest to me that even the rabbi’s don’t really know what the borders of Eretz Yisrael are.
If you want my opinion on what the borders are, as recently as 6 months ago I would have said, “The Nile to the Euphrates”, but after more research I am increasingly unsure. There just isn’t a lot of material in on this topic in Jewish writings, as if it doesn’t even matter.
yesh po raq ben adam ehad, bo nagid shtayim she medaberim shtuyot. Tagid li, ma yesh katuv be halacha, ma amru ha Chachamim? Ve lo amarta li m’eyfo ata. Tagid gam im haita be tsa’al? Yesh leynu kam milim bishvil zevalim k’mo khem. Anach’nu korim le khem lemekh . Ata yodeya ma ze? Americaim khaitsi isha khaitsi khaya.
Az lech mi po.
Wow, your threats to whomever should be posted at http://www.forum.codoh.com for all to see, what a desperate slime ball Zionist you are. I wonder what the police would say about your sleazy threats.
Anyway, moving on. The laughable ‘vergassungkeller’ nonsense is shot to hell here:
‘the ‘vergasungskeller’ note’
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1001
‘Andy Mathis resurfaces’
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455
Auschwitz: Technique & Operation of the Gas Chambers (I)
Or, Improvised Gas Chambers & Casual Gassings at Auschwitz & Birkenau, According to J.C. Pressac (1989). Book Review, Part I
By Robert Faurisson
http://www.codoh.com/library/document/2318/
Technique and Operation of German Anti-Gas Shelters in WWII
A Refutation of J. C. Pressac’s “Criminal Traces”
By Samuel Crowell
http://www.codoh.com/library/document/883/
Wartime Germany’s Anti-Gas Air Raid Shelters
A Refutation of Pressac’s ‘Criminal Traces’
By Samuel Crowell
http://www.codoh.com/library/document/2837/
As for your cyanide residue lies, see:
‘The Rudolf Report’ here:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/
As for laughable & impossible SS “confessions”, see:
‘Holocaust HOAX is based almost entirely on TORTURE!’
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8603
And hey, there’s thousands of “eyewitnesses” to witchcraft & sorcery.
But we all know Zionists never lie. Right.
Dear Greasy,
We’ll hook you up…the solution is easy, don’t hit on’em. Approach the family like a man and say you’ll take care of her and her children, people have been doing this for centuries – not rocket science. They’ll only pile on you if you want to have a fling or mess around. Oh – and you gotta be Muslim – though there are plenty of Persian Jews. And you shouldn’t advocate destroying Persians if you want to get with their daughters – again, not rocket science.
To the other stuff…
Besides the fact that Shiahs are still Muslim (though heterodox), I wouldn’t want them annihilated even if they were still worshiping fire – you should know me by now man, you think I toe the ISIS line? Furthermore, there is no Islam as we know it without the Persians – this is no hyperbole. The Muslims of Persia gave us practically all of our religious sciences or had a tremendous role in their formulation – and my fingers would be tired if I had to type out all the Sufi masters (they would have done enough by just giving us Junayd [may God elevate his rank]). Also, Persia was majority Sunni (mostly Shafi’i school) until the Safavids forced Shi’ism on everyone in the 16th century: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/safavidempire_1.shtml
Whew!!! Encourage those guys take down those maps then – that is suicidal stupidity to promote maps including Madinah based on some nebulous notions. We are trying to put out the fire on our side – promoting these ideas does not help.
Fair enough, let’s leave it at that and assume the best.
May God preserve you and yours.
Rehmat, your reading comprehension must be as poor as your logic and values. A cursory glance at my comments here and on other sites shows no love for Jewish supremacists, for Israel, for Zionism, or for the Talmud.
Try again. Back to the madrassa for you.
Hey Talha,
I meant to write you earlier re: this. You had asked about the covenant of bene Yishmael. A great authority on this is Rabbi Reuven Firestone [my own Rabbi Ken Stern gave me his reference, and I intend to get in touch with him]. I reckon someone of your calibre will greatly benefit from speaking with him as well, and we can exchange views afterwards.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/author/rabbi-reuven-firestone/
test
More on “witnesses” and SS “confessions” here:
‘Dissecting the Holocaust’
http://vho.org/GB/Books/dth/found.html
then see: http://vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndvalue.html
and
http://vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndwitness.html
More on fraudulent ‘gas chambers’ here:
‘Some Technical and Chemical Considerations about the ‘Gas Chambers’ of Auschwitz and Birkenau
Germar Rudolf
at:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html
More nails in the ‘holocau$t’ coffin.
This a very good argument with good counter-examples. Thank you for elevating the level of the discourse.
My response: I would note that there are different varieties of nationalists within each nationalism.
To sidetrack momentarily, take Russia: There are at least 5 different “flavors” of Russian nationalist. Take “liberal nationalists” (e.g. Navalny) – “Stop Feeding the Caucasus!”, and Eurasian nationalists – basically USSR-2 with less progressivism. There are Neo-Nazi Russian nationalists most of whom worshipped Maidanist Ukraine (at least until recently) and then there are Sputnik i Pogrom “White Russia” nationalists who have been some of the strongest supporters of Novorossiya. The relations between these varying nationalist groupings can be extremely poisonous, more so even than their relations with non-nationalists like Communists or Zapadnik liberals.
Not limited to Russia either of course. Witness the American Alt Right vs. the Neoco(hen)s and the cuckservatives. 😉 Or the not all cordial relations between the Alt Right and NRx even.
In short, you can easily have genuine nationalists who disagree with each other very severely, promote things that might seem to be at odds to the priorities of other nationalists or even just the average patriotically-inclined citizen.
How does this apply to Israeli Jewish nationalists and to neocons?
First, relations between neocons and Israeli Jewish nationalists are okay. Not great, but not at all hostile. They can be said to be perpendicular to each other (with one of the main common vectors they share between them being the welfare of Israel and global Jewry).
Second, Israeli Jewish nationalists are a great deal more particularist and short-termist. Part of it is that living as they do in Israel, a country which is itself a sort of metaethnic frontier (in Turchin’s formulation), they have a much more explicitly 19th-century style Realist and do not have the time and energy to philosophilize overmuch in universalistic neocon terms. Or the IQ, for that matter. Israel is 50/50 Sephardic-Ashkenazi, and even Israeli Ashkenazi are duller than their US counterparts; furthermore, nationalists tend to be duller than the average citizen across many different countries. This, too, militates against universalistic ideological thinking.
American neocon Jewish nationalists have the luxury of greater distance from the conflict and a higher IQ, but balanced against that is they also have to keep the loyalties of the 320 million Americans who ultimately more than anyone else guarantees that Israel continues to flourish. That means you really have to harp on very hard on all the universalism/democracy/American exceptionalism BS because as commentator Glossy pointed out recently, people appreciate sweet lies about themselves.
That also means neocons can’t go too explicitly Jewish supremacist/Blut und Boden. This would be a contradiction far too difficult to square even for people of their prodigious verbal IQs.
Those neocons who are too blantant about overstepping the line are sooner are a liability than an asset: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/impossibility-of-jewish-russophile/
Reprinting an interesting comment found on Russia Insider’s reprint of this article:
That’s what he’s trying to tell you, NeoCons tend to be true believers. It isn’t a case of some Jewish conspiracy. Even Kevin MacDonald acknowledges that NeoCons actually believe the trash that they say. They generally believe the universalistic nonsense they spout and are against, or at least aren’t in favor of, Greater Israel. Guys like Paul Wolfiwitz and Elliot Abrams have spoken in favor of returning to 1967 borders.
Also, there are no nationalists in Israel. Unless you want to claim that everybody in Israel is nationalists. There is 0 political difference between Likud, Labor and There is a Future (the three largest parties). They all agree on literally every issue.
I think his supporters are more… Blood for the blood god!
This seems to me a textbook example of begging the question. You try to prove that the neocons are Jewish nationalists by asserting that they are a type of Jewish nationalists.
Actually, to me they look like a species of American nationalists.
The Neocons (as we understand the term now as opposed to the 1970s understanding) are typically old hard line Cold Warriors. They felt vindicated and validated by the collapse of the Soviet Union. And then they went one step further. They said, “If America managed to impose its will on such an awesome opponent as the USSR, it would be no problem to do the same in the Middle East, or China, or South America, etc.” A better name for the Neocons would be American Triumphalists.
Yeah, but they also are way too pro-Israel to be American triumphalists alone.
I think, like most human beings, they believe (1) what they want to and (2) what winds up being good for them and use copious amounts of self-delusion to convince themselves that expanding the American Empire is good for America, and that what’s good for Israel is good for America.
Dear Sam,
Thanks for the link, that is a balanced perspective. I do hope that someone like that Rabbi has authority and influence. The reason I am asking these questions is because I believe it is imperative we return to authority in the respective traditions to look for answers out of this mess. Furthermore, we need to insist on erudite, scholarly authorities being the basis of forming the normative voice(s) of these traditions. You seem to be on the Reform part of the spectrum, correct? What percentage do you figure (of the Rabbinical scholarship) are Reform. And do the Reform and Orthodox authorities confer with each other on these matters or are they completely isolated?
Be careful my friend, do not put too much stake in intelligence as many of the people that comment here do. Even if I was to put myself into the shoes of a pure materialist, there is zero evidence that intelligence is the determinant trait defining the genetic success of any species; hominids included.
It seems like what I was saying to Greasy seems right; the demographic trends seem stacked against people of your background which run the show in Israel. It seems that you would rather ‘abandon ship’ than stay the course because you don’t see a viable solution – is that indicative of the thinking of most secular types?
Thanks Sam, I can sleep easy tonight… 😉 Non-proliferation in that area is an absolute must. I know from the Muslim side there needs to be a concerted effort from the top levels of scholarship to instill in the masses that usage of weapons of mass destruction are completely against any known rules of engagement from our tradition or ethos and there must be a concerted political effort to cool tensions down and get rid of these insane weapons.
Indeed, I don’t know when it is going to get through people’s heads that we are on a very bad trajectory and that the stakes are way too high. Maybe the Israeli technocrats will take the keys with them to Europe when they leave the car?
Anyway, thanks for doing your part to change the minds of those in your community.
May God grant you honor in this world and the next.
Yes, I’d claim that everyone in Israel is nationalists. (Not everyone, obviously, but a big majority.) Except for the shrinking (and shrinking-violet) left. The only thing keeping them from linking up with the Euro nationalists is 1933-1945, and as we’re seeing with Marine Le Pen, even that may not be insuperable.
I have to say, this is the only comment thread I have ever seen that includes both arguments over rabbinical quotes, and Holocaust denial.
Well done, Anatoly. I doff my cap to you, and raise a glass of Manischewitz in your honor.
It’s not well known for obvious reasons, but it goes really well with prosciutto. 😉
Dear Greasy,
You said there was no specific definition of ‘Greater Israel’. If so, why not stay within the 1967 borders? Or at least split the West Bank in such a way that Jews stay on one side (maybe the North) and the Arabs are allowed on the other? You mentioned before that you have no problem with Arabs living there, right? It is just a matter of sovereignty…they might not fight you so much if they had a reasonable accommodation.
May God preserve you and yours.
At least half of them, at any rate.
Poll: Half of Israeli High Schoolers Oppose Equal Rights for Arabs
That’s basically more hardcore than even the Front National.
You’d have to look at the really hardcore European parties to find people espousing such things like BNP, Golden Dawn, maybe Jobbik. None of them poll significantly more than 10% support.
But the ‘Israelis’ are not the indigenous people on the land they have stolen, the Europeans you refer to are.
Big difference.
All indigenous people have a right to maintain their homelands and cultures.
The first example is wrong, though. Neolibs and SJWs supported the groovy Egyptian revolution, but neocons didn’t.
Many of them are Jewish and, and those that are not have Jewish colleagues, so the affinity for Israel is natural. I suppose if some American political group happened to be dominated by ethnic Russians support for Russia would be fit into its pro-American ideology.
the day after the Palestinians do something to help Russia?
Yeah. Look at those intellectual Iranian generals…. sending human waves of backwoods teenage boys to clear out Iraqi minefields by promising them 72 virgins
funny. the deeper you dig down in the soil, the more and more Hebrew writing you find. Note: Not all ancient Hebrews were Jews. The Phoenicians were non-Jewish Hebrew-speakers.
PS: Aramaic is closer to Hebrew than American English is to New Zealand English. That any local Christians (which religion is, of course, indigenous to the Land of Israel) speak Arabic – is an accident of history. And we will change that.
which wouldn’t stop Muslims from raping them.
Rehmat, tell us again, what you are doing to help the Pakistani (your tribe) Hindu & christian girls who are kidnapped an forcibly converted to Islam, JUST BEFORE getting raped.
When we move those Paki Christian kids to Judea & Samaria, and the girls grow up to get conscripted in the magav….. they will be the first to bash your skull in with their rifle butts.
In other words, the deeper you dig down in the soil, the harder it gets to pretend what you find has anything to do with Jews.
Dear Anatoly if you have a problem with my comment respond publicly and not like a coward. I do not understand your retarded twitter generation’s acronyms and if I did I would not consider them. Comments should have no policy otherwise they are not comments but panegyrics. Since I will not provide anybody with the likes of such call me a jerk if you want. From Joe Nobody who likes to call himself a thinker it does not cause any harm. Lastly I do not understand your promise that in case I will not be a jerk “we’ll be cool.” Who is we and what makes you think mister Thinker that I care.
I agree.
I laugh when people refer to the promotion of buggery as “progressive”. I would think regressive to be a more accurate word to use.
It’s 2016, not 1986. Having trouble with the date are we? I know its hard for some….
Hezbollah didn’t seem to send wave after wave of boys against IDF soldiers (who were too scared to even leave their own tanks, pissing and shitting in empty ammo boxes inside their Merkavas highlighting Jewish bravery no less).
Yeah the deeper you dig, the more likely you find nothing:
‘Fake Jewish graves in Muslim cemeteries’: UNESCO slams Israeli occupation of Palestinian sites
https://www.rt.com/news/340037-israel-unesco-palestinian-sites/
Is there anything legitimate about Israel and the Jewish people? Really I’m asking….
There is no question that Eretz Yisrael includes Judea and Samaria (what you call the West Bank), Gaza and the Golan. Ironically it doesn’t necessarily include the Negev.
Where did you say you were from, Pakistan right? How would you feel if the UK took over Pakistan and declared that they were sovereign now but that they would respect your human rights? You seem like a non violent guy but I’m pretty sure your countrymen would fight them to the death, and nobody would blame them.
Same thing for the Pals. They have made it very clear they are fighting to the bitter end to remove Jewish sovereignty from any part of Eretz Yisrael/Palestine. And nobody blames them (except for some obtuse self righteous secular Israelis). Nor should they.
Dear Greasy,
That may be the case in theory, but I guarantee you if they had a viable contiguous area in the West Bank (without settlements and an occupational army), that would cause a massive shift in the hostilities. The settlements have to stop. Israel budged on Gaza, and they should at least partially budge on the West Bank. The rest of the Muslim world would also press more firmly for diplomatic solutions. I don’t think any of the Muslims (except the extremists) have any hopes regarding any of the territory within the pre-1967 days from a practical perspective – nor the right of return. Once hostilities have died down for a while there may be a way to open up borders for trade and cultural exchange.
But both sides need to budge with their ultimate goals…it’s a war of attrition at this point…
May God bless you and your family.
They send Hazara afghans- who tend to have afghan birthrates(10 kids to one woman) as their cannon fodder. No one really gives a shit, though
אין לי זמו לבזבז איתך. אף פעם בחיים שלי לא ביקרתי את ארצה”ב, וכל זה לא חשוב בכלל. רק דבר אחד חשוב פה ואמר אותו באנגלית בשביל כולם.
It’s obvious that you lack even minimal competence in, or even casual familiarity with Rabbinic sources. Anyone who does can tell this easily from your comments. Suffice to say, once again, the idea that the Rambam believed that the descendants of Yishmael had some sort of joint claim to the land is a fantasy of your own. I have already quoted you the place in the Mishneh Torah where he says the precise opposite. Conversely, you have not quoted anything and, moreover, you do not even know how to quote Rabbinic sources.
This has nothing to do with my personal views. It is dishonourable on your part to act like you know something about halacha; it is weird on your part to insist that you do based upon your patchy knowledge of conversational modern Hebrew, and you would be better advised to stop wasting your times and everyone elses’ and, instead, to sit down with the Mishneh Torah, or the Shulhan Aruch on page one and start getting a basic feel for what these books are about.
What are the hell are you on about.
Very occasionally the Akismet spam filter removes comments accidentally but I see nothing of yours in the spam queue.
First of all, while it is certainly true that the average American Jew has a higher IQ than the average Israeli, it is a non-sequitor to infer that second-generation neoconservatives are more intelligent than Israeli nationalists. Nor is it true. While the first generation contained some exceptionally clever individuals (and Leo Strauss really was a genius), many of the current crop actually border on being dumb. This is partly because of reversion to the mean; neocons are pretty nepotistic.
Secondly, whilst some neocons (such as dumbo Podhoretz, and not so dumb Perle) are definitely strongly ethnocentric, others, (such as Wolfowitz and his Arab feminist wife) are not really at all.
Thirdly, I don’t deny that neocons think their policies are good for Israel; I simply assert that they also believe their policies are good for America. This they once had in common with literally hundreds of millions of Americans.
One could discuss the neocons in more detail, but I don’t think it’s very important, because their ideology has been discredited by events and the remaining members basically constitute a cult at this point. However, what is important is to discuss the failure of the neocon project to remake the Middle East, which I think can be said without any exaggeration to be the most important global political event of our time.
Even more importantly: only HBD can explain why it was failure. The Left can’t explain why it was a failure so blather on about “war for oil” and “no WMD”, as if this explains why Iraqis set about killing each other by the hundreds of thousands over some obscure shit from 1,200 years ago that no-one else cares about. Only the alt-right can really explain why bombing Japan and Germany to smithereens, imposing a new government and ploughing a lot of money in worked really, really well and then doing the same to Iraq didn’t work at all. Unfortunately, much of the alt-right seems hell-bent on wasting this opportunity so they can stick it to the Jews.
I’d like to continue this discussion in more detail, but Pesah is coming, so it won’t be possible. I think your’s is one of the more consistently interesting alt-right blogs out there, though I think it is has tended to decline in quality they more interested you have become in defending Putin’s foreign policy (not that you don’t make valid points here too). I also don’t understand why so many HBD bloggers are content to remain ignorant of economic science and think it’s OK to substitute in their moral opinions into the study of human action in the context of society, when they would never so for human biology, but that’s for another day.
Dear Gabriel,
Totally did not mean to kick off a dust-up between you and others. However, two things:
1) It seems you are bringing another perspective into the mix – thanks. You are quoting from Rambam’s work of exegesis (is this a reliable translation: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/682956/jewish/Mishneh-Torah.htm). Question; is that the last authority on the subject (for Orthodox tradition) or are there appeals to higher or equal authorities on the subject with a different view from latter day scholars? I know where to go for my tradition (Sunni Orthodox, specifically the Hanafi school) for that kind of information, just wondering where one goes for that information for the Jewish tradition – or is that not even a serious question any more due to factionalism?
2) I can’t figure out where you stand on this issue; what should be the US position vis-a-vis Israel? Or is it just – hands off, let them figure it out?
May God bless you and yours.
No rush – feel free to respond after Passover. We have a sort of Passover tradition too; a couple of days of fasting.
The mental image of Trump selling all the Israelis to the Arabs was hillaryous.Into bondage,once again!
What a bunch of wackos.A collective of insanity.Ants gone mad.
Projection much?
I think that projection is pretty much the point. Coming (ha) or going you can’t get much done without projection.
Israel will be just another rotten ME country with nukes.
And that differs from what we have now?
Except it kind of does when you are an expat. I wouldn’t ever make the love it or leave it arguement to a natural born citizen, but for someone to immigrate here and then rail against American foreign policy it seems super ungrateful. If Anatoly were railing against America’s immigration policies or in support of something you were opposed to I can’t imagine you’d be as indulgent of his attacks.
Guests should be circumspect in their criticism. That certainly isn’t an unpopular view here when applied to La Raza supporters.
Hello Talha,
I am not religious. Not in the sense a number commenting here, surely are. It might be called cafeteria judaism [pick and choose what you wish to consume], although I do belong to a conservative synagogue. Mostly its habit [and a bit of duress….regular exhortations to keep kosher etc], you see. Since I had had a rather different upbringing and read secularly [anglo], prior to living in New York, my views are accordingly, disparate from the quotidiens jewish ones; at least as manifested amongst the U.S. black hats.
I have never found religious orthodoxy or liturgy appealing, both being quite clearly the source of much human distress, varying only in degree [have you seen the bobbing and bowing at the hip for hours? Couldn’t possibly be pleasant ;)]. I prefer to think of religious laws as occupying a distant address in a continuum, one which extends to the modern and accepted body of common, national and international laws. None of which is to say that antiquity necessarily renders past laws redundant; specifically, the second halacha essentially says that: the Wise Ones determined, since the bene K’turah, from a third wife of Avraham after Yishmael and Yitzhak, mixed with the bene Yishmael, both must accept the rule of circumcision on the 8th day, to be part of the covenant, or be killed! Airily brushed aside as “minority opinion” [technically true only if counted opinions are exclusively of the militant black hat variety] in comment #71, it might yet form the basis of concordance with modern law, much of which affords sanguinary inheritance; obviously discarding the revolting portion which appears at the end. I want those ultra “religious” [yes you Greasy and your chum(p?)s] who hide behind orthodoxy, yet enjoy the benefits of the modern state, to tell us with a straight face that your positions are anything but transparently covetous and self-serving in addition to being inhuman. So yes, I choose to be righteous on this matter, not just because it is the right thing do, but it is quite the opposite of obtuseness. Obtuseness would be being reduced to arguing the difference between the 8th day or the 13th year? ‘Risible’ is the only mild word that comes to mind! Better would be kosher horseshit.
I know what you mean Talha, and yet there is evidence that national IQ is explanatory of economic advancement [Anatoly has written on this subject, I believe]. Naturally grit should count, but might only be secondary. I believe the high IQ bestows one with a greater responsibility for one’s fellow men, not just close kith and kin.
BTW Rabbi Reuven Firestone is an authority.
More on this later. TB contd….Others feel free to weigh in. I am enjoying this open admission of backwardness by the jewish ultra orthodox!!
P.S. Gabriel M: I know your type. Unfortunately all to well. Much rote learning, little insight. Now run along and start bobbing and bowing as your cousins murder Palestinians.
Point taken. Why don’t you ask this question to the medieval jews on this forum? Aren’t they visible enough?
תשמע מניאק, בזמן שאתה לבד בבית מתקתק על המחשב וקורא דברים מלפני אלפיים
אתה לא מבין שחוקים מלפני אלפיים שנה לא מסתדרים במקום מודרני
So emigrants are not allowed to have bad opinion about American foreign policy, they should be grateful for being allowed to live there? That is a very narrow-minded (I don’t want to swear) approach, and actually goes straight against the American values and principles American politicians try to justify the flaws of their foreign policy with.
By the way, he did not criticize the American immigration policies because he has no problem with them. Neither did he criticize American internal affairs (at least not as harshly as he did in the case of foreign affairs). He criticized those parts of American foreign policy he does not agree to. And he has just as much right to do so as anyone who was born in America.
I came to the West at the age of 6.
Incidentally, that was when the pro-Western Yeltsin clique was ruling (and looting) Russia.
So – why should I care?
At least anything exclusively so.
Dear Sam,
Thanks for the insights into your background; that helps me understand where you are coming from and your conclusions. As you probably gleaned from my comments, I take the tradition quite seriously (but of course we are talking two different traditions here). Again, the prayer traditions are different – so I can’t speak to the bobbing at the hip, but night vigils can be very calming.
“Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand for the right: They rehearse the Signs of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer.” 3:113
I agree with you that we should try to come to terms as much as possible within the respective traditoins on agreed upon international norms – otherwise, back to the law of the jungle.
As far as minority opinions – every tradition has them, even common law (example: most states considered age of consent to be either 10 or 12 before the 1900s – Delaware was an outlier with 7 [http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/website-reviews/230?section=primarysources&source=24]) – I don’t give much weight to those. The critics of Islam love to drag out minority opinions. But every legal tradition worth its salt tends to have a review and corrective process embedded in it.
No doubt that IQ has its advantages just as muscle mass or other human traits; I was actually talking at a more fundamental level – without getting into too much detail, could it be posited that there could be a selective correction for an upper bound. I’l leave it at that.
Thanks, I’ll look into his work.
Sorry for causing strife between the different parties here – not my intention. My teachers have advised us to avoid contention and argumentation if possible since it deadens the heart.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
May God grant you honor in this world and the next.
Contextual to a subset of commentariat: touché !!
You are a guest only among people of normal intelligence.
Try to make yourself a more welcome one.
This is absolutely true and I’ll take it up for you.
Plus the most obvious point, they thought that the invasion of Iraq would be good for Iraq, at least over the long run. This is what they passionately argued and what the majority of Americans agreed with.
Contextually, for a subset – touché
So what I should act dumber to make you feel comfortable?
Care about what? Russia’s ability to impose its will on its neighbors? I don’t think you should care, but you do. I don’t thibk people living in the US should root for foreign powers. Thats not a controversial opinion here when applied to the neo-cons.
I don’t understand how your position is any different from theirs with the exception that the country you root for is a traditional enemy of this country and for that reason your particular pet country’s amen corner is small and not influential.
That’s great.
Otherwise, as I asked way up above on this thread:
Provide it or GTFO.
Talha >>> had noted that Rambam had stated that Bani Ishamel have as much right to the land as Bani Ishaac
when the Rambam’s followers start enlisting in the Israel Border Police, they will be given some influence over Israel’s borders.
Up till now, the stronger influence on IDF culture has been (Scottish deep Christian) Orde Wingate.
Dear Karl,
Did not know this, thanks. This does not surprise me. The British Isles set the standard very early on for modern soldiers and so many special forces of the world are based on the SAS and SBS.
May God preserve you and yours.
So we need to track down all of the descendants of the Phoenicians and have them move back home.
Traditional enemy? I think it is you who refuses to give up the Cold War-style of thinking and actually trying to read what Anatoly meant by what you deem US-bashing.