Audacious Epigone has pointed out another interesting question from the latest round of the World Values Survey. (I covered religiosity a few days ago). This question concerns the respondents who said they would not like to have neighbors “of a different race” than their own, given as percentages of respondents from a given country.
AE has a table (which I reproduce below). But I’ll add a few details to prevent this just being a copy of his post.
One can access the data for oneself by going here, clicking on 2017-2020 –> highlighting the countries you want to look at (or select all) –> typing “people of a different race” in the search bar.
Apart from the raw table, one can also see an interactive world map, as well as regional maps of the continents. For instance, here is Europe.
What strikes my eye immediately is Poland’s numbers, which at just 7.2% are nearly Hajnal Europe-tier and sharply distinct from its V4 neighbors (Czechia – 27.4%; Slovakia – 27.0%; Hungary – 28.2%).
This confirms what I have been saying that Poland is – for whatever reason – is more racially blank slatist/”anti-racist” than most of the rest of Eastern Europe, e.g. see here, here, here.
Russia, at 14.7%, broadly like Estonia and Romania, is midway between Hajnal Europe and the more “based” ECE countries, and seems similar in general to East Asia (Japan – 14.3%; South Korea – 15.2%; China – 18.0%) and the Med (Spain – 12.5%; Italy – 11.7%).
Another interesting feature is the time series options, which lets you compare answers to this question across previous waves of the WVS amongst participating countries.
(Incidentally, the famous world racism map produced by the Washington Post was based on an earlier wave).
For instance, here are the US numbers, which go as you might expect them to:
| United States | |||||||
| 1981-1984 | 1989-1993 | 1994-1998 | 1999-2004 | 2005-2009 | 2010-2014 | 2017-2020 | |
| Not mentioned | 92% | 91% | 93% | 92% | 95% | 94% | 97% |
| Mentioned | 8% | 9% | 7% | 8% | 4% | 6% | 3% |
| No answer | – | – | – | – | 1% | – | – |
| (N) | 4,650 | 3,678 | 1,542 | 1,200 | 1,249 | 2,232 | 2,596 |
There are parallel trends through most of Western Europe and the American sphere of influence in general, e.g. here is the United Kingdom:
| United Kingdom | |||||
| 1981-1984 | 1989-1993 | 1999-2004 | 2005-2009 | 2017-2020 | |
| Not mentioned | 90% | 91% | 91% | 94% | 98% |
| Mentioned | 10% | 9% | 9% | 5% | 2% |
| Don´t know | – | – | – | – | 0% |
| No answer | – | – | – | 1% | * |
| (N) | 1,167 | 1,484 | 994 | 2,590 | 1,794 |
As expected from geopolitics and high English language skills, racism in Poland has also gone down rapidly:
| Poland | ||||||
| 1989-1993 | 1994-1998 | 1999-2004 | 2005-2009 | 2010-2014 | 2017-2020 | |
| Not mentioned | 83% | 80% | 83% | 86% | 95% | 85% |
| Mentioned | 17% | 20% | 17% | 12% | 5% | 7% |
| Don´t know | – | – | – | 1% | – | 5% |
| No answer | – | – | – | 0% | – | 3% |
| (N) | 982 | 1,153 | 1,095 | 2,479 | 966 | 1,358 |
But in countries less exposed to American cultural influence, such as Russia, trends have been different ever since the the mid-2000s (even as the skinhead culture died off).
| Russia | ||||||
| 1989-1993 | 1994-1998 | 1999-2004 | 2005-2009 | 2010-2014 | 2017-2020 | |
| Not mentioned | 89% | 92% | 92% | 84% | 82% | 84% |
| Mentioned | 11% | 8% | 8% | 15% | 17% | 16% |
| Don´t know | – | – | – | 1% | – | – |
| No answer | – | – | – | * | 0% | – |
| (N) | 1,961 | 2,040 | 2,500 | 5,361 | 2,500 | 1,810 |
Still, even living under the American sphere of influence, it is still possible to refuse many of its “cultural” accoutrements, given political will, as shown by Hungary.
| Hungary | ||||
| 1989-1993 | 1994-1998 | 2005-2009 | 2017-2020 | |
| Not mentioned | 77% | 81% | 88% | 69% |
| Mentioned | 23% | 19% | 12% | 28% |
| Don´t know | – | – | – | 1% |
| No answer | – | – | 1% | 1% |
| (N) | 999 | 650 | 2,520 | 1,519 |
Complete 2017-2020 data:
| Rank | Country | %NeighborNotDiffRace |
| 1 | Burma (Myanmar) | 70.4% |
| 2 | Viet Nam | 62.4% |
| 3 | Macau | 43.3% |
| 4 | Turkey | 41.2% |
| 5 | Lebanon | 35.9% |
| 6 | Bulgaria | 33.0% |
| 7 | Georgia | 32.6% |
| 8 | Thailand | 32.1% |
| 9 | Iraq | 31.8% |
| 10 | Bangladesh | 31.8% |
| 11 | Guatemala | 30.3% |
| 12 | Hungary | 28.2% |
| 13 | Iran | 27.6% |
| 14 | Czech Republic | 27.4% |
| 15 | Slovakia | 27.0% |
| 16 | Armenia | 27.0% |
| 17 | Kyrgyzstan | 25.7% |
| 18 | Pakistan | 25.3% |
| 19 | Azerbaijan | 25.2% |
| 20 | Macedonia | 25.0% |
| 21 | Jordan | 24.4% |
| 22 | Greece | 24.4% |
| 23 | Tajikistan | 24.2% |
| 24 | Bosnia and Herzegovina | 23.7% |
| 25 | Slovenia | 23.0% |
| 26 | Lithuania | 21.8% |
| 27 | Tunisia | 20.6% |
| 28 | Philippines | 20.5% |
| 29 | Nicaragua | 19.8% |
| 30 | Belarus | 19.5% |
| 31 | Romania | 18.1% |
| 32 | China | 18.0% |
| 33 | Egypt | 16.5% |
| 34 | Ethiopia | 16.4% |
| 35 | Nigeria | 15.8% |
| 36 | Estonia | 15.6% |
| 37 | South Korea | 15.2% |
| 38 | Cyprus | 15.2% |
| 39 | Russian Federation | 14.7% |
| 40 | Japan | 14.3% |
| 41 | Spain | 12.5% |
| 42 | Italy | 11.7% |
| 43 | Mexico | 11.4% |
| 44 | Croatia | 11.2% |
| 45 | Hong Kong | 10.9% |
| 46 | Kazakhstan | 10.3% |
| 47 | Colombia | 10.2% |
| 48 | Puerto Rico | 9.2% |
| 49 | Indonesia | 9.1% |
| 50 | Austria | 7.9% |
| 51 | Albania | 7.7% |
| 52 | Taiwan | 7.6% |
| 53 | Poland | 7.2% |
| 54 | Peru | 6.9% |
| 55 | Chile | 6.9% |
| 56 | Finland | 6.8% |
| 57 | Netherlands | 6.3% |
| 58 | Ecuador | 6.0% |
| 59 | Malaysia | 5.5% |
| 60 | Zimbabwe | 5.2% |
| 61 | Bolivia | 4.6% |
| 62 | Switzerland | 4.2% |
| 63 | Australia | 3.9% |
| 64 | Andorra | 3.9% |
| 65 | Germany | 3.7% |
| 66 | France | 3.7% |
| 67 | Denmark | 3.1% |
| 68 | United States | 3.0% |
| 69 | New Zealand | 2.7% |
| 70 | Argentina | 2.7% |
| 71 | Norway | 2.6% |
| 72 | United Kingdom | 2.1% |
| 73 | Iceland | 1.7% |
| 74 | Brazil | 1.4% |
| 75 | Sweden | 1.0% |
Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.
If you are new to my work, start here.
That contradicts surveys that showed that a majority of White Americans opposed black white interracial relationships until the early 90s.
Disappointed with the Greek number. We are going soft.
That data point alone is quite funny.
It makes me wonder if Vietnamese consider Chinese a different race, and the answer is most likely Yes.
Which however makes the whole comparison an exercise in pure bullshittery, as I don’t expect more than a microscopic small fraction of Germans to consider French or Danish to be of a different race, for example.
The world badly needs racist mass propaganda, but is there any country where you could legally produce it and export it? And how would you publish it, torrents? USB drives tied to balloons?
Japan would be my natural pick, for a production base. Lots of talent – completely separate advertising industry, but I’m still not sure it would be possible there. I’m uncertain about Chinese law. Seems to me that you definitely could not publish it there, but perhaps you could still produce it there? Or maybe not.
Anywhere with Europeans seems out, as far as I can tell. I don’t think it would even be possible now to tell some historical stories within Western Europe. Oh, technically, it might be legally possibly in the US, for the moment, but how would you get anyone to work on it, considering repercussions?
I could think of some really good ideas. It’s quite easy to come up with them because everything is anti-racist, and the average quality of anti-racist propaganda is really quite low. It is only the rare product, like Indiana Jones, which is enjoyable on some level.
Exactly. How was “race” translated into Burmese, Vietnamese, or Turkish, and what ordinary respondent imagined when he heard this word? Do Turks see Kurds and Arabs as “another race”?
These “value surveys” that try to apply American concept of “race” into completely different societies , in completely different context (see also people who want to organize BLM protest in South Korea). are utterly useless.
You can as well imagine Americans answering Indian survey what caste they are and how they feel about unclean people of lower castes.
Race presumably can mean quite different things in different countries though? Like over 40% of Turks saying they wouldn’t want to live next door to someone of a different race sounds quite high, but to a Turk the phrase “different race” possibly means Kurds and Armenians, etc, who technically aren’t a different race but different culture/nationality.
I’m surprised how low the Chinese and Japanese percentages are, they’re verging on European levels of cuckery, and Taiwan is already at Western European levels of cuckery.
Presumably it must be considered socially unacceptable in East Asia to be openly racist, especially in Taiwan, to have resulted in such low percentages, which surprises me considering none of these countries have any massive “diversity” concerns compared to “the West”, especially Japan and Taiwan.
Sweden Yes
Anti-racist propaganda has battered France for 35 years. Humans are part of one single race. For the past few years even mentioning the word in some contexts is punishable with fines. Anti-racist organisations have run decade long campaigns of intimidation in which random people were surveyed for their views, companies phoned for business and asked about race-related restrictions, or people were simply made to talk during innocuous seeming conversations. Any law infringement would be reported and prosecuted. The outcome is that in France no-one dares say anything regarding race that might have negative consequences.
Conversations between friends and friends of friends reveal an unceasing hostility towards blacks, arabs, and muslims. Therefore this values’ survey reflects the degree of intimidation in Europe more than a change in attitude.
The question has differs meaning for everybody. Czechs, Slovaks and Hungarians when answering the question think about their Gypsies. This is why they have high score.
More specific questions about different nationalities should be asked.
I suppose one could take the anti-white sentiment expressed publicly in Europe as a conservative estimate of the hidden thoughts of Europeans. Logically, it should be higher than that considering the unique nature of the insult, being invaded and then insulted by the invaders.
The CCP, far from being some sort of fabled allt-right Han chauvinist organization actually heavily favors the rights of ethnic minorities. This means bending over backwards to preserve ethnic traditions, respecting their customs, massive AA, at the expense of the Han majority. Racism is in fact as unacceptable, if not more so in educated circles compared with the anti-racist West. Something like Macron’s recent statements or the display of anti-Islamic materials in France is impossible – CCTV even censored the pig during the Year of the Pig celebrations several years ago. CPP “racism” is really an expression of the rustic ignorance of local cadres and not Party policy, since many of these guys grew up in villages without electricity or running water. Think stereotypical East European peasant attitudes towards Jews a la Borat (they drink blood, transform into cockroaches at night, etc) rather than scientific racism/coherent worldview in the vein of the Nazis or pre-Civil Rights era Americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Walmart
https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/racial-tolerance-map-hk-fix-from-washington-post.jpg
What did Indians think of the word “race”? Which led their figure for this particular question on the WVS being so high?
True, there was a Chinese commenter on here talking about how they have no ethnic slurs in Mandarin for their minority groups.
Chinese social media platform bans account claiming US is ‘processing DEAD BODIES into hamburgers’ – report
This will likely change in the coming decades as more and more Chinese are brought up in a very developed environment, and the differences between China and the Third World become more apparent.
I think China could change its censorship policies – even to promote racist entertainment (as it should) – without any real diplomatic consequences, provided the CCP had had the stomach for it. But they don’t seem to. Instead, we get super-pozzed Wolf Warrior 2.
Any racist entertainment with high production values would have very high propaganda value both because of large number of people inevitably virtue-signaling against it (and thus spreading word about it), and because of the lack of such material. Not to mention, the very poor average quality of anti-racist stuff.
I find it quite interesting how many Indians in the West seem to promote the word “brown” as a self-identifier, when it is obviously not remotely a scientific way to separate Indians from numerous distinct racial groups. And, besides which, some Indians have quite dark (black) skin, or quite light (nearly white) skin.
I never spread that meme.
That said, the CPC of today is clearly not the CPC of 5-10 years ago so far as pro-minority cucking goes.
An oldie but goodie!
https://i.redd.it/bfg2ndh786fz.png
There is or was something unique about Czechoslovakia.
Imagine being so low self-esteem and cowardly that you actually felt “cuckec” living next to someone of a different race.
Like I’ve been saying all along…. This altright shit is just a support group for people with anxiety disorders and schizophrenia.
Our world doesn’t “badly need” anything. It is less violent than ever, cleaner than in at least 500 years time, and affords more opportunity to more people than ever before. Oh, but corporate conglomerates need anonymous hicks to tell the how to do things? Go take your thrift store computer to the recycling center right after you take a bath.
It depends, like in Bulgaria there are a lot gypsies so of course it makes people think “different race” mean gypsies – meanwhile in poland there are not really any ethnic minorities except ukrainians which are behaving allright. So idk are bulgarians more racist than poles or are they just supposing that different race means gypsies.
Did they survey the Turks on Cyprus and combine the numbers?! LMAO
The only kind of diversity that matters.
https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d514d7a67444f79457a6333566d54/img/818ee646582348dfafd752af2e121412/818ee646582348dfafd752af2e121412.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2A-Fl-HDyKw/WvCEpaEFWBI/AAAAAAAABOo/16J1YAzqwJErF58clhS0Q8Le3CJMIJOaQCLcBGAs/s1600/African%2Bstudents%2Bin%2BChina.png
https://chinaafricaproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/52eab0b8-graphic-overseas-website-1000px.jpg
https://i1.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/fp_20181003_students11.jpg
Good lord, the lengths Americans will go to to not say the word “Negro”.
Chinese university education is probably worth it more, as American university education (barring maybe doctoral or postgraduate stuff) is more of a social experience as opposed to an academic one.
Are the African students in China there on a scholarship? What are the fees like in Chinese universities for domestic and foreign students (if they differ)?
I know you haven’t (you have correctly noted that China’s ethnic minority policy draws heavily from the old Soviet model) but there are many on this site and others who hold such beliefs.
Did they break Vietnam down by north / south, coast / mountains?
I can’t imagine people in Ho Chi Minh caring much if some white American moved next door as long as he spoke the language and wasn’t a jerk. No more than (obvious example) Osaka.
https://www.pewforum.org/2018/05/29/nationalism-immigration-and-minorities/pf_05-29-18_religion-western-europe-01-07/
https://www.pewforum.org/2018/05/29/nationalism-immigration-and-minorities/pf_05-29-18_religion-western-europe-01-08/
https://www.pewforum.org/2018/05/29/nationalism-immigration-and-minorities/
Take “no-response” answers and it’s a decent alpha proxy for the amount of people who hold negative opinions but don’t wish to be publicly associated with such.
Though given the prominence of both ethnic Eastern Europeans and migratory gypsies in many Western European cities I don’t know how useful the responses on Eastern Europeans are.
Well Linh Dinh did repatriate to Vietnam a couple of years ago…
The word “neighbor” probably means different things to different people. Like the esoteric Chinese cuisine in 1950s America or actually moving to Sichuan.
the evil imperialists of aemrica cynically use this kind of surveys trying to drag the world down with them into the drain. the chutzpah. it is them who enslaved the Black race and genocidede the native americans. fcckk. the bald faced lie, calling grannies in Chinese villagers racisrt.
“That contradicts surveys that showed that a majority of White Americans opposed black white interracial relationships until the early 90s.”
1960’s maybe. By the 1990’s that sort of attitude was long gone from the American mainstream.
I’m actually be a bit surprised at the large amounts of racism in various Muslim countries; after all, don’t Muslims believe in a global egalitarian Muslim ummah–as in, a global egalitarian Muslim community? (Well, not necessarily egalitarian in regards to sex, but egalitarian in regards to race, with all Muslims of all races being treated equally.)
Wrong.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/163697/approve-marriage-blacks-whites.aspx
Lol that is some major bullshit from our European friends who are threatening Turkey with sanctions, killing people on the high seas, and burning refugee camps in Greece while Turkey is hosting millions of refugees. Ok, Turks are super racist, why don’t you save poor refugees from the racist Turks then since you are so not racist. Levels of hypocrisy and bullshittery is reaching new highs, but I wonder if it was always like that. Open your borders, and save refugees from racist Turks. What is stopping you? In reality, Turks don’t want Syrian neighbors exactly because non-racist reasons. Who would want neighbors who cannot speak a common language, rent an apartment with 3 other families, has 10 kids and are always loud and disrespectful? If you take them we will gladly accept your “Turks are racist” claims in return, but last I checked Europe was threatening sanctions, Greece shooting them, and EU trying to bribe Turkey (and always not even fulfilling promises of their agreements) for forcing “racist Turks” to keep millions of refugees escaping useless wars West started.
Actually Czechs mean Slovaks, Slovaks mean Magyars, and Hungarians mean Romanians and/or Gypsies…(I am only half joking :).
“In reality, Europeans don’t want Turkish neighbors exactly because non-racist reasons. Who would want neighbors who cannot speak a common language, rent an apartment with 3 other families, has 10 kids and are always loud and disrespectful?”
Man, you really have internalised Liberal values if you think being called racist is an insult. Is this why your president and foreign minister call people racists, fascists and nazis whenever they need to distract from the falling value of the Lira?
Plenty of local people enthusiastically participated in these wars, incl. Turks. The millions spawned by these wars are not refugees, they are simply migrants – people who want to abandon their failed countries and move to better places. There is no right to ‘migration‘ and there never was. Both the migrants and the their home countries’ failures existed long time before the wars.
Learn how to live in your own societies. If you don’t you will eventually be very sorry.
I learnt something important in Middle School. No matter how much they hate each other, they can all agree that they hate Kurds and Jews more.
But if you are looking for a concrete quotidian example:
Here is an example of Maghrébins being very “toxic” online that happened last year during the summer African Football Cup. (NB Côte d’Ivoire is a muslim plurality country)
It is rather vulgar, so I’ve covered it. You can just use online translation.
The forum of 160k users claims to ban racially or religiously insulting users, but they amusingly reserve longest all caps string for the ban against promoting miscegenation:
https://www.lengadoc-info.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/1-bis.jpg
https://www.lengadoc-info.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/16-bis.jpg
https://www.lengadoc-info.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/2-bis.jpg
https://www.lengadoc-info.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/4-bis-1.jpg
https://www.lengadoc-info.com/8487/societe/algerie-cote-divoire-de-nombreux-derapages-racistes-entre-les-supporters/
Though their home country is much more willing to reveal their power level.
https://apnews.com/article/9ca5592217aa4acd836b9ee091ebfc20
Poland is less racist for whatever reason? If you had an improvement in living standards + influence of cucktholicism, then isn’t it obvious you will be less racist?
Maybe it’s a compliment?
https://www.dw.com/en/erdogan-cites-hitlers-germany-as-effective-executive-presidency/a-18954675
The figure for Malaysia is 5.5% but the country is the most institutionally racist in the world, bar perhaps Israel.
Yes, but most readers would not know what you are Talking about. Here is a nutshell:
Basically, the main racial groups in Malaysia are Malays, Chinese, Indians, plus others. The Malays make up like 60-65% of the population, and this proportion Has been growing for decades, from around 55%.The Malays make themselves the “bumiputras” or “ sons of the soil”, even though vast majority of the other racial groups are also native born in Malaysia. They passed laws that give “ affirmative actions” to Bumiputras, ie themselves, in the 70s, using “lower share of the economic pie” as excuse. And these laws are still effective.
Thus, all job adverts have the phrase, “Bumiputras preferred”, Malays also get to go into universities with much lower test scores, there are laws that say if you start a company, you must give a certain share of the company to Malays, same with Company promotions etc.
The result is making a small group of Malays rich, with the majority still poor and still blaming their plight on The other races. It also make them less hard working compared to the others…
The proportion of Chinese in Malaysia has decreased a lot, from about 45% in the 50s to perhaps as low as 25% currently, due to both a lower birthrate as well as mass emigration ( with Oz, NZ and Singapore being the top destination).
I don’t care about racist or liberal claims much really. What I do have a problem with is your nasty and disgusting hypocrisy and double standards. You want to be racist, but also not get called out on that. You want to dump refugees to Turkey, but also blame Turkey for human rights stuff and refugee rights. You want to kill them on seas and build fences on your borders but also want to blame Turks for slightest action to defend their interests. That is what I have a problem with. This is what you are. Subhuman scums, pretending to be the greatest civilization ever while you are the ones who were on each others’ throats just 80 years ago (and on others’ throats since then).
President of Turkey? Fuck him. If he was a real leader you would have 6 million Syrians in your cities today since you are the ones who invented refugee rules & Turkey has geographic limitations on refugee claims and cannot legally consider Syrians as refugees. But you are so stupid that you do not even realize what a gift he is to you.
There are no 6 million Turks in a single European country. Most speak local language. None are refugees, you invited them. None live in one apartment with three families and none with 10 kids. However, since you are a racist piece of shit, you cannot be bothered with facts. So I suggest you go jack off to Hitler photos online instead of trying to come up with zingers online lol.
Turkey was the last to join in Syria and out of no alternative. Yes, millions spawned by these wars are refugees. Turkey hasn’t started a single war in the last 100 years, except for Cyprus operation as a guarantor state, which we had to in order to protect Turkish Cypriots from bloody Greek murderers.
Great. Go back to Europe. Leave USA, Canada, South America, South Africa, and Australia and go back to your continent you 2.5% Neanderthals. Everywhere you go massacres and genocides follow.
Shouldn’t you leave it first?
China practices testing worship as its main filter against low IQ. Any obsession with ethnicity would destroy China, itself being the result aggression against(and from) a number of once culturally and ethnically distinct entities.
The good thing about censorship (bad to some) is that it can get very technical. So, they could ban racism against any internal ethnic groups, while also criticizing mass migration and population replacement (in order to prevent it in China). They could also ban racism against specific political entities, like Nigeria (in order to discourage diplomatic spats), while encouraging it against badly behaving foreigners in China, like blacks selling drugs.
That is what I think Russia should do as well.
Another approach would be to encourage shows with HBD themes. Like, a sci-fi show, different from Star Trek where all the aliens are able to miscegenate with other aliens from across the breadth of the galaxy. So, you don’t even need to talk about specific human races, but just include a lot of ideas about biology and how it differs. That some aliens have bigger brains, or are stronger, or have greater fertility, etc. That some are less ethnocentric with disastrous consequences.
I sometimes wonder, if the reason the US had its culture entirely subverted was that the Hays Code essentially banned picking on ethnic groups. France, which has a secular state-religion against the reality of race, seems to be in very deep trouble today.
Turkey isn’t in Europe.
Oh, I agree – in part. Anatolia isn’t part of Europe, and Turks aren’t Europeans. (And it was crazy ever to consider making them part of the EU, though it is a bad organization anyway.) But Constantinople (And East Thrace) is a part of Europe, and so there are at least 15 million Turks occupying land in Greece.
Really, if we are going to call Europeans occupiers, then I don’t see how Turks can be grandfathered in. It is a pretty fine line that divides 1492 from 1453.
If you stay in your countries, we will stay in ours. I have no sympathy for the past British or French colonial dreamers, you can have them all. We can also ship to you the current imperial nut-cases, they don’t represent Europe. Do with them as you wish.
But the idea that any Third World loser can get up and move to Europe because he feels like it is insane. It leads to a lot of suffering and unnecessary strife. Europe is European and always will be, don’t test us. You will end up like in 1683 or 1918.
Turkey started enough wars and genocides between 1400 and 1900 to last forever. The single most unpleasant and murderous country of that era was Ottoman Turkey, with its inner decadence and murderous imperialism bordering on insane brutality. Stay where you are and we will slowly forget what you did. You have no future in Europe because you are nor a part of it.
Again, this isn’t even much of an issue of who occupies what. The really nasty thing here is the hypocrisy and double standards. It is everywhere. From terrorism to free speech to democracy to warfare. The problem is that while you, after 1000 years still call Turks invaders etc. forgot that you have colonized whole continents, far, far away from your original homelands. So, as they say, don’t throw stones at people’s homes if your home is made of glass. As in your post “Turks occupying Greece”? What Greece? Ancient Greece was pretty much limited to some islands and Peloponnese. Do you even realize Greeks themselves were invaders in Anatolia, and not natives?
Agreed. But why isn’t it insane when Europe demands Turkey open doors to millions of Syrians and keep them in Turkey. Why isn’t it insane when Turkey tries to establish a safe zone in Syria for refugees but Europe calls it ethnic cleansing?
And Turkey is Turkish and will always be, don’t test us.
Or you might end up like 1000+ years before 1683.
Turkey not equal Ottoman Empire. Even assuming it is, it was how it was, everyone constantly started wars. However, there isn’t a single genocide Turks committed. All genocide whining from Armenians and Greeks is actually whining for failing to genocide Turks in Anatolia similar to how it was done in Balkans.
Do not make me laugh. The most brutal empires the world has ever seen were European colonial empires. I am not here to give a history lesson. Turks never stuffed corn seeds into Mesoamerican stomachs, make them drink water and put them under sun unless they converted to their religion, quite the contrary Christians protected their religion and identities in Ottoman Empire. Turks also never cut hands of thousands of Indians to prevent them from manufacturing textiles that were higher quality than British textiles. Turks never cut arms of kids in Congo because they failed to fulfill collecting enough rubber. The list goes on and on. For the standards of time, Turks were among the most tolerant people on earth. You were at the time busy killing everyone, including each other. Do not try to lecture me on European history, I have read it from pre-politically correct history books where you claim you haven’t made any gains from colonialism.
Most Turks stay in Turkey. If you stopped supporting terrorism, undermining Turkey and try to force millions of refugees on Turkey, even more would do so. Majority of those who are in Europe are also invited by your governments to be workers.
I do not want a future in Europe, neither do I want to be a part of it. Turkey has one of the best geographies and fertile lands in the entire world. I just want Europe to stay out of Turkey’s business, stop bombing countries like Libya, stop supporting civil wars, stop trying to steal our maritime zones, stop supporting terrorism, stop trying to foist millions of refugees on Turkey and so on. Which one of these is so unacceptable?
Indeed, you couldn’t say it in a public format by that point, but I think it was still a very common view. I mean, there’s a reason it wasn’t ubiquitous in the movies/TV shows back then — Hollywood would have loved to promote it harder, but was afraid of lost revenue.
I think there are also two distinct ideas that are sometimes conflated:
Is it generally wise for whites to be exceptionally wary about pursuing romantic relationships with blacks?
I think even today, you might find some large reservoirs of support for #2, if you can get people to speak frankly, but not many people agree with #1 outside of places like this. I had a left-leaning girlfriend circa 2010, huge Obama supporter, who would nonetheless sometimes surprise me with frank and unorthodox assessments of reality. She would have agreed strongly with #2, but not at all with #1.
Don’t open the doors, it’s that simple. Of course Turkey actively stirred up a rebellion against the Syrian gment, there are consequences when you do that – especially if your rebels lose.
That is incoherent, what do you mean? What do early Middle Ages have to do with Turkey? You were Central Asian nomads at that time.
Some more than others, Turks among the most. It was the Turks in 1683 trying to conquer Vienna, not vice-versa.
I have nothing to do with Anglo and French colonial murderers. I told you: you can have them.
Turkey has great geography and plenty of resources. It can be a rich, outstanding country. It is not a European country. The morons who invited Turks to ‘work in Europe’ should be held accountable.
Genocide is a badly defined and sensitive term. Suffice to say that Ottomans enslaving millions, kidnapping children for ‘janissaries’, officially maintaining lower status for non-Moslems, and raiding into Balkans, Central Europe and Ukraine was pretty ugly. Turkish Tatar allies in Crimea where an outright genociadalists living purely from murdering, plunder and enslaving peasants. Own up to it.
These things are controlled by globohomo. Not by European nationalists (probably most of the audience here, though it is a somewhat eclectic crowd.)
IMO, distance just makes conquest a more impressive fete. I don’t think historical conquests (real conquests – not welfare invasion) should be put in moral terms. Conquest is a fete of power, and people who put it into moral terms are usually seeking power, only their means are more cowardly and undignified, as is the end they seek.
But if we were forced to put it in moral terms, then there were probably more people living in Eastern Thrace, when Turks conquered it, than the Western Cape and Australia combined, x100. Maybe, that makes it a more impressive fete in some ways? But it is certainly missing the magical element of exploration.
Constantinople was once the largest and wealthiest city in Europe. Greek was spoken there for many centuries.
Anatolia and the Peloponnese were actually part of the same landmass, when farming started there. (the sea level was lower). That is where the genetic component Early-European Farmer (EEF) comes from, which forms such a large part of the Greek genome (and surely much of the Turks’), (and a smaller part of that Northern Euros) and which is sometimes mistakenly attributed to Arabia. While it is relatively easy to divide and separate continents today, in historic times, the Greek nation properly spanned them.
If Turks got out of Europe, (East Thrace and Germany) how many would that be? At least 20 million, I should think. That would be plenty of room for white South Africans. They could each have what, four or five apartments? I mean, that is if anyone is saying they should return home.
Genetically/ethnically speaking, the far more significant dividing line seems to be the Taurus mountains, not the Aegean. As is endlessly repeated here, Turks are almost wholly native Anatolian/Greek stock, forcibly Islamicised. I’m not a ‘hard’-HBD person, but it obviously explains why Turks-proper were able to both dominate the Arab world and fight Europe on an equal footing for so long.
Of course, their primitive religion and political system eventually held them back. Now that it’s resurging there, I’d give a very negative prognosis for Turkey, if only Europe were not eagerly committing suicide at the same time.
Religion seems to be an important component of ethnicity. That is the main reason for dividing Greeks and Turks, IMO, though there are surely other reasons for not wanting Turkey to be integrated into the EU.
Yes, Lawrence of Arabia, in a rather homoerotic way, wrote about their pale skin, as the Arabs were stripping their dead bodies. Though, curiously I would say that Greeks I’ve known have averaged paler than Turks.
Han Chinese and Han Koreans are separated only by the Yalu River.
Yet, they each consider only themselves to be of a superior race.
The Korean word for “Korean” is “Han’guk”, meaning “Han people”.
Not inclusive of Han Chinese.
“Race” is not a clearly defined concept across all peoples. Useful for creating “enemies” for propaganda purposes.
Thanks for the heads up in a post last week that the latest wave is out. I may not have otherwise checked until January.
Not that simple. Turkey did not want to let them in, Europe pressured Turkey. Turkey was also the last to join the alliance against the Syrian government, after Saudi, Gulf, and NATO was actively involved Turkey had no other options. Then everyone else left, and act like it was just Turkey’s own doing. Before the civil war relations with Syria were the best they have ever been for Turkey.
You implied Turks might lose a war and referred to 1683, when Turks were defeated by the united Germans, Poles + Russia. I simply reminded from Attila to Ottomans, Turks won more wars than they lost. We weren’t just in Central Asia, modern day Russia was a migration path for a very long time, most of those nomads were Turkic.
Everyone tried to conquer everyone else, by that logic no one is allowed to stop warfare until eternity. When Europe was stronger they also tried to conquer Istanbul and more than half of Turkey proper.
Okay, but you move as a block, and you are in the same union. If things aren’t worse than they already are, that is because of a couple sensible countries like Hungary and Spain. If you weren’t letting the tail wag the dog, ie. listening and siding with Greeks in their delusional claims against Turkey half the problems would be gone. If you weren’t supporting PKK/YPG in Europe, and in Syria, and not trying to block Turks from sending Syrians back to their home country by establishing a safe zone then 99% of problems would be gone. We are the ones being defensive here, not you. Of course I don’t know where you are from, if you are from Czech Republic or Luxembourg I am not blaming you, this is about EU as a whole. What the EU is telling to Turkey is essentially boils down to “don’t send Syrian refugees back to Syria, don’t send them to Europe as well” they might as well show a middle finger and say “go fuck yourself”. However, when you act that way, don’t expect Turks to just be friendly and helpful. Tell your politicians to not involve in ME. Tell them to not side with ME dictators in Saudi and Gulf aka biggest terror supporters.
I agree. We don’t need to be Europeans. We should exceed them.
It is a well defined term with legal consequences. Turks are also the only people who are being held retroactively guilty for for Armenian and Greek deaths, even if we ignore the fact that it was a civil war. Laws do not apply retroactively, except they are against Turks favor I guess.
Technically everyone were servants of the sultan, including the Turks. Other than that, millions were not enslaved. Turks did not need massive slave labor, we never imported slaves, save for rich people having house servants and concubines. This wasn’t a common thing in Turkey, especially not in Anatolia where most Turks remained nomadic for a very long time. Nomads have no use for slaves. No one kidnapped children. It was a draft system, as simple as that. Janissaries were also considered elite part of the army, and were personal guards of the Sultan. They were also allowed to choose their faith, retire, and have a family. Doesn’t sound like a slave army to me. Also the average draftee was around 16 years old, Ottomans did not have a nanny corps for imaginary army of babies we never drafted from Christians.
This meant little in practice, and it was there to fulfill Islamic requirement. Non-Muslims had basically every right Muslims had, except for symbolic details. Moreover, religion is something you can change. Either all Christians were saints (they weren’t) that they wouldn’t convert to Islam, or things weren’t near as bad as you imagine.
So did Russians when they had the advantage. Numbers of Tatars they killed in Kazan alone would be in millions if you adjusted for the % of the world population.
Except Turkey has about 20% Kurdish and Arab population, not counting refugees. Not all people in Turkey are ethnic Turks. Turks are Eurasians, not Middle Easterners.
Actually, my opinion differs in the sense that as Greek elements became stronger and Turkish cultural elements receded, Turks became more incompetent like Greeks. Let’s not underestimate their legendary incompetence, I mean they turned the Roman Empire into a shitty kingdom that couldn’t even handle Bulgarians and Arabs soon after they assimilated Latins. First poison for Turks was the conquest of Constantinople, second was the conquest of Egypt. With their toxic cultures poisoning Turkish culture, we became more and more incompetent and problems that never afflicted Turks started to pop up (there was no such thing as homosexuality among Turkic nomads for example, no such thing as sectarian wars as well just two examples one from Greeks the other from Arabs, I leave you to deduce which from who). It is no surprise that Ottoman decline actually started soon after these two events. Without them happening, Turks would probably hold onto Balkans, never fall too far behind in technology (this is thanks to Arab culture banning every progress in the name of religion, in reality anything they cannot find in dust storms they call haram) and never became as weak as in 19th century.
The following is the work of Spandrell an extremely intelligent and knowledgeable individual.
All place names in Korean, North and South, with the very overt exception of Seoul, are Chinese derived words. That includes the name of the country, the names of all provinces and all cities. Most interesting of course is the name of the country, as that changes the most. Chinese-inspired polities tend to change the name of the state every time the dynasty changed. Modern Republics kinda count as dynasties, a fact which is often a matter of jokes, especially in China. The name of the country thus says a lot about the people who founded the government.
South Korea calls itself 大韓民國, 대한민국, Dae Han Min Guk. The first letter, ‘dae’ in korean, means big. The second, ‘Han’, is a proper name. Min-guk here is literally “common-people’s country”. It’s an early Chinese rendering of the concept of “republic”, and a rather elegant one. So South Korea is, literally “Republic of Great Han”. On everyday speech it is shortened to 韓國,한국 Han Guk, Han Guo in Chinese, Kan Koku in Japanese. “Han-land”, sorta.
What is ‘Han’ though? Note that this Han has nothing to do with the Han of China’s main ethnic group. That one is written 漢. South Korea is 韓. Zoom in, you’ll see they’re different. 漢韓. Tones are different in Chinese. No tones in Korean, so they do pronounce them the same, but such is life in China’s area of linguistic influence.
So anyway, the Chinese letter which is now used by South Koreans to refer to themselves goes back to the Han state in warring-states era China, which was born of the dismembering of the Jin state in 403 BC. The Han state was somewhere between southern Shanxi and northern Henan in today’s China, and while it wasn’t one of the powerful warring states, it did give us the great philosopher Han Fei.
Actually one can track the word back to an even earlier state, or rather a small fief given by the early Zhou Dynasty (1046 BC) to one of the many sons of the Zhou founder (the Warrior King, Wu Wang), which was located in… 韩城, the city of Han, which still exists to this very day, a small mountain town on the west bank of the Yellow River. Shaanxi province. Small towns having the same name for 3,000 years is one of the joys of the Chinese writing system.
So what does a Bronze Age walled town in the middle Yellow River have to do with post-WW2 South Korea? Their names are written exactly the same, 韓國. But that’s about it. Obviously China’s Bronze Age river town has precedence. 3,000 years worth of it. So why did South Korea took its name from it? That’s a bit complicated, and fairly stupid if you ask me. Let me explain.
Korea is one of the countries with the least complicated history on earth. The country adopted Chinese statecraft early on, but Korean dynasties on average last longer than Chinese ones. Chinese states if lucky lasted at most 250 years. While the last two Korean dynasties lasted 500 years each (!). I think that’s a record.
So anyway, as a unified kingdom Korea starts being a thing in 668. The first kingdom was called Silla 新羅 (668-935), ruled by the Kim family, then came Goryeo 高麗 (918-1392),obviously the origin of the Western name, ruled by the Wang family. And then came Joseon 朝鮮 (1392-1897), ruled by the Li family.
As in China, a new dynasty changed the name of the country. So where did those names come from? Silla was the original name of a state in the South-west of the Korean peninsula. It then grew, and a smart alliance with Tang China got him the rest of the peninsula by 668. Nobody knows the origin of the name, nor much at all besides that it was probably pronounced as “Sila” or “Sira” back then. Perhaps it meant something like “big city”, which links to modern Korean “Seoul”.
Silla was replaced by Goryeo, which got its name from the great kingdom of Goguryeo, a kingdom which was born in today’s southern Manchuria in 37 BC, but eventually grew to conquer most of the northern Korean peninsula. They also founded Pyongyang, such as it was. As it happens the little evidence we have of Goguryeo’s language suggests that it’s more related to Japanese than to Korean, but it was a kickass warrior kingdom that everybody remembered fondly. And so when Silla was overthrown, new Wang family dynasty, who claimed descent from them, chose to recover the name for their new state.
So then after a good and eventful 500 years the Goryeo dynasty collapses, and it is replaced by a coup launched by this guy called Yi Seong-gye. The background here is that as the Mongol Yuan dynasty, which ruled both China and Korea, collapsed, the recovered Goryeo dynasty tried to take advantage of the civil war chaos to win more territory from China. Yi Seong-gye was a Goryeo general, and he received the orders to attack Chinese armies. He thought it was a pretty stupid idea, so he came with a better one: he’d make peace with the Chinese armies and go invade the Korean capital instead. So he crossed the Korean Rubicon, and installed himself as new king in 1392.
Then he asked the newly founded Ming dynasty China if they’d recognize him, which of course they did gladly. He was the nice guy who had chosen to ally with them instead of attacking their armies. He then asked the Ming emperor to choose a name, out of a couple ideas, and the Ming First Emperor chose for him 朝鮮 조선 Joseon. Which is the name of a small kingdom, theoretically located around today’s Pyongyang, which had payed fealty to the Zhou Dynasty way back in 1046 BC. So Bronze Age, again. The name was both ancient, Korean, and it symbolized the good relations with big bro China, and so Joseon it was.
So let’s go forward again 500 years (how did Korean dynasties last so long I really have no idea). It’s 1897, and the Joseon Dynasty is still around. Yi Heui is the 26th king in a straight line of Joseon kings. But it’s 1897 already, it’s the apogee of Western Imperialism, and it’s also 2 years after the First Sino-Japanese war. That war was launched by Japan explicitly with the aim of making Korea ‘independent’ from China. And Japan won, so it behooved Korea to take concrete steps to cut its traditional ties with China. Ties which had given it its name back in 1392. It took 2 years to convince the Korean king, who thought like many in Korea thought it was absurd to pretend to be diplomatically equal to China. Those 2 years included a series of coups, the murder of his queen, and an escape to the Russian embassy. But eventually in 1897 the Korean king made his mind. Same dynasty, of course, but new regime. And so new name.
What name to take, though? He couldn’t ask China for one again. And he was still the king of the old dynasty, so he couldn’t use his family heritage or something. He had to choose a new name out of the blue. And so after a while the Korean king, or I guess some of his ministers, came up with some old historical name which could fit the bill.
The original name, Joseon, had come from a Bronze Age Kingdom. Well, “kingdom”, more like some chieftain and a couple hundred serfs. Way later in Korean history, around the first century AD, Chinese historians talk of a series of small chiefdoms in the southern half of the Korean peninsula. Specifically they talked of three: Mahan, Byeonhan and Jinhan. The “han” part of the names was written phonetically, using different Chinese letters which sound like /han/, but eventually, and for no good reason, Chinese historians settled in using the letter 韓, which as I mentioned before refers originally to a fairly old Chinese fiefdom, and later a middle sized kingdom. It also happens to be a common surname. As for why those Korean kingdoms were called ‘something-han’, it’s anyone’s guess. The best scholarly theory seems to be that ‘han’ comes from the same root as Mongolian ‘khan’, i.e. boss.
So anyway, the reasoning here seems to be that the Korean king wanted a new name, he looked at the history books, couldn’t find any name which hadn’t been used before or that had any bad connotation, so eventually settled with this word which was kinda Korean so “anyway let’s get done with this already gentlemen I didn’t want to do this on the first place can I go home now?”. The name chosen was 大韓帝國,대한제국Dae Han Je Guk, “Great Han Empire”. ‘Empire’ being also the formal titles of China and Japan and the time. So, equality, independence.
That was 1897. In 1910 Japan annexed Korea anyway and thought the whole thing was stupid. Under Japanese rule Korea was used by its previous name, Joseon (Chosen in Japanese). North Korea, being communist and down to earth, also calls itself Joseon. Well, the Democratic People’s Republic of Joseon. China calls North Korea Chaoxian, which is the Mandarin pronunciation of Joseon.
South Korea though as a liberal democratic country had to do the virtue signaling thing, so they chose to signal that South Korea was a return to how things were just before the Japanese invaded. Just without the king. So South Korea chose the exact same name chosen back in 1897. Just changed a letter, “emperor” for “people”. So instead of 大韓帝國,대한제국 it’s 大韓民國 대한민국.
And that’s the name today. South Korea has this weird ahistorical name, born of lazy Chinese historiography two millennia ago, but with a rich narrative of independence and victimization. North Korea just keeps the old name of the 1392-1897 dynasty. China and Japan call each country by their chosen names. But of course North and South Korea themselves don’t recognize the other’s right to exist, so they call it by their own chosen names + north or south. South Korea calls North Korea, 北韓 북한 Buk Han “North Han”, while North Korea calls the South 南朝鮮 남조선 Nam Joseon “South Joseon”. China used to follow North Korean usage, not anymore.
Amusingly Taiwan and Hong Kong mostly follow South Korean usage, as good fellow USG vassals.
And yes, the Korean script, “Hangul” is Han-gul, Han letters. In the North is, you guessed it, Joseon-gul.
Long story short: history is fun, languages are different, and the difference allows for different ways of doing what everybody wants to do anyway: fight
https://spandrell.com/2018/06/14/the-past-and-future-of-korea/
Those Turks of Pontic Caspian and Central Asian steppes have nothing in common with you. Nor does Attila.
I don’t think Catholicism has that much to do with it. I think it’s just that Poland is more attuned to the West than the rest of its neighbors, due to various particulars of Polish culture.
Slovakia is far more Catholic than Czechia (even if not as Catholic, or at least not as likely to attend Mass, as Poland), and seems, if anything, somewhat more racist, but the two countries are rather close on these measures.
That is how it always works when you ally yourself with the Anglo-French imperialists: they hide behind virtuous slogans, bomb a place, make a mess, a few insiders get richer, and then they move on because they either lose or there is no plunder left.
If Turkey didn’t see it coming, my God, the naivete. Living in that neighbourhood by now they should have learned that Anglos are never there for reasons they state and the well-being of the locals is the last thing on their mind. How many times do they have to do this before you learn?
It is like the Sultan thing you mentioned: everybody serves the Sultan. (The Sultan by the way currently doesn’t reside in Europe.) We have less culpability than the locals – like Turkey – who enthusiastically joined in these misadventures. It is only fair that the misguided locals end up paying a higher price. But if you can figure out how to transport the ‘5 million refugees‘ directly to Westminster, Washington or Brussels, more power to you. We don’t want them where I live and won’t allow them in.
Regarding Tatars and Ottomans: in history sequence matters. If you attack first and lose, like the Crimean Tatars, what happens to you are simply consequences for your attacks.
If you define racism as not wanting to have a noisy Pakistani clan living next door you are defining the term down so low that it has almost no meaning.
One thing that might play a role in Czechia and Slovakia are our very good Gini scores: our societies are among the most egalitarian in the world. People understand that Western liberals have no intention to actually live with the Third Worlders they are importing – they safely separate behind high walls from the multiculturalism they are imposing on their countrymen. In a more egalitarian society this hypocritical attitude is more highlighted. So people become more blunt and open when resisting it. In my view, most people in the West are shell-shocked and scared, furthest away from the ‘free people’ they like to preach to others. They simply do and think as they are told.
Yeah, I was just copying Karlin’s lead in the title of this post of using “racism” either ironically or as as shorthand for “race-realist”.
But that’s an interesting thought on Gini scores. Though Sweden, for example, is also low Gini yet super-Woke on these matters.
I wonder if low-Gini + small country might be an important effect? I notice that Denmark is also evidently the most based of the Nordics, and it’s the geographically smallest. Basically, race-realism comes from a sense that you will not be able to separate yourself from the masses that you import. The Swedes are prepared to sacrifice Malmo, which is a long way from Stockholm, and which in any case is not a core Swedish territory but a conquest from Denmark in the 17th century. Denmark, already a tiny rump of its former self, is not so prepared to abandon any additional territory.
You are right about the small country. E.g. Austria is a lot better than Germany, something about large countries that makes them susceptible to go uber-liberal. But Sweden is not that big, maybe something else is in play there – Swedes have been on the liberalism journey longer than most people, we might be dealing with 3rd or 4th generation. Most average people simply internalise the official line. Until it all goes bust because it is just too stupid and remote from reality. It’s not just Malmo, Stockholm and Uppsala and Goteborg are dreadful, Third World dysfunctional islands of squalor everywhere, unusable metro, fear and suppressed thinking. Last time I went it felt like people were just waiting for it to end, too afraid to speak up, closed into themselves, truly unfree people.
Low Gini matters. The countries that go hyper unequal simply have no future other than as quasi-feudal hell-holes. High inequality, hyper competitive labor markets, rent seeking everywhere, and global open borders – that’s a bad combination. Even rich will have a hard time to escape it, or their descendants will. This is really not good for anybody other than a mass of parasitic Third Worlders trying to move in.
I am from Turkey and I am disappointed too. I love every neighbor of my country but most of us hate especially of armenians and arabs. Unfortunately these haters support Erdogan and that’s why they hate different races