Open Thread 82

I do realize that producing three posts a day one week, then one post per week the other, is rather ineffective. But what can one do with the vagaries of life’s schedules. For now, here’s another Open Thread to relieve the last one.

Our ancient car broke down so we will need to get another. I notice that the two most popular cars in Russia are the Lada Granta and the Lada Vesta, while the Lada Largus is in 7th place. Most of the rest on that list are mostly or entirely assembled within Russia. Indeed, as of 2017, Russia vehicle production (1.55M) was almost entirely equal to its vehicle sales (1.60M), according to OICA data.

I finished China’s Economy by Arthur Kroeber (h/t Polish Perspective). I agree with him that it is an excellent overview of that topic.

Comments

  1. This is the current Open Thread, where anything goes – within reason.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. Mr. Hack says

    “Our”

    ?…

  3. Rod Dreher, the indefatigable blogger at the American Conservative, famous for
    the book The Benedict Option (whose main thesis is that the United States is in
    a state of decline resembling the waning days of the Roman Empire, and therefore
    to preserve Christianity the Americans need to imitate St. Benedict and partly
    withdraw from the corrupting effects of the school system and the mass media
    by forming intentional communities that are similar to the Benedictine monasteries
    except that they would be designed for families) is currently in Poland
    researching his next book. I wonder if he is going to mention the unusually low
    levels of social dysfunction (murder, rape, abortion, divorce, drug addiction, etc)
    in Poland that has resulted in the Holy Poland meme. His posts and comments
    shed a lot of light on the situation in that country.

  4. Fried chicken, watermelon, and grape soda.

  5. Anatoly, have you considered visiting Belarus anytime soon? After all, you do have expansionist desires in that direction and thus it would certainly be interesting for you to do a review on it like you previously did with Romania.

  6. To the Polish and Russian readers:

    I want to recommend “Centrum Polsko-Rosyjskiego Dialogu i Porozumienia”
    (Center for Polish-Russian Dialogue and Understanding) in Poland. They are
    on Facebook and seem to be very active – a lot of good-looking girls! There are
    at least 10,000 Russians living in Poland, and their number is growing. There are
    now a whole number of Russians on YouTube extolling the virtues of living in
    Poland, and encouraging more Russians to come.

    One example is a young woman who goes by the name Marain on her YouTube vlog. She
    was born and raised in Moscow but her family is largely Polish and comes from Brest in
    Belarus near the Polish border. She and her brother got Karta Polaka (Polonian’s Card),
    moved to Poland, and are now students at the University of Warsaw. She is majoring
    in English and minoring in Spanish. She is a vegetarian, and likes the fact that in
    Warsaw, unlike in Moscow, you’re always close to green spaces.

  7. Buzz Mohawk says

    Do they have Dacia cars where you are? My in-laws in Romania have the Logan model, which is a decent economy car.

    Before that, they had one of the ubiquitous 13oo models copied from the Renault 12. That type was maintained for decades by many people there and can still be seen. They waited months for that car, and then waited days sometimes to buy meager monthly fuel rations.

    It is good to have affordable, easily-repaired transportation. That way people can keep it going through whatever history, politics and economics throw at them.

  8. The Big Red Scary says

    My local mechanic, a king among proles, says Ladas are good cars. I might buy one in the next few years.

  9. what do you need the car for? Just Moscow or also road-trips <1000km? How many km do you plan to make per year? most importantly, how much are you looking to spend? personally, at this time I wouldn't buy a new car. The used car market is great and getting better by the month. A new Vesta goes for what? €10k ? you may get a couple of years or km of warranty but from what I heard they are really not that comfortable, especially for longer trips. For 10k, you can get a really nice used import/Russia assembled car. Personally, if you don't want to spend a lot, I would get a Skoda or Toyota. If it has to be a Lada, you should think about X-ray(http://www.ooyyo.com/russia/c=CDA31D7114D2854F111B906FB6741253CCA20A7037D3/-1874531292400282769.html/#_) if you want to go to the country side

  10. Marshall Lentini says

    She is a vegetarian, and likes the fact that in
    Warsaw, unlike in Moscow, you’re always close to green spaces.

    And a 10€ FlixBus ride from Kreuzberg.

  11. Italy and Hungary trying to revive Quadragonale (Hexagonale)?

    Hungary Inks Deal on Trieste Port
    https://hungarytoday.hu/hungary-italy-deal-trieste-port/

  12. The Renault Duster is the Dacian Duster in all but name (as I am given to understand).

  13. Could You Pass The Russian Gopnik Test?!

  14. ‘it’s pretty easy to get in and out’ lol

  15. anonymous says

    Anatoly, have you considered visiting Belarus anytime soon? After all, you do have expansionist desires in that direction and thus it would certainly be interesting for you to do a review on it like you previously did with Romania.

    To visit all lost Russian lands and to review whether they are deserving of annexation to the Great Russian Galactic Empire, Mr. Karlin needs to travel alot.

    http://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/sputnik-i-pogrom-big-russia.jpg

  16. I don’t think Dreher is shedding that much new light on the situation, Karlin has already pointed out just how rapidly globo homo loving Poland has become.

    They are also more than happy to host non white soldiers occupying their land. Having blacks defend your nation is clearly not nationalism in any form, it is the complete opposite. Even if you ignore the black soldiers, Poland is very happy to bow to the wishes of the hard left EU, the land is cucked.

  17. What is the difference between a gobnik and a vatnik?

  18. for-the-record says

    The truth is now revealed, although the Kremlin is of course in denial mode:

    Poll Shows Every Tenth Russian Has Been Tortured; Kremlin Skeptical

    One in every 10 Russians has experienced torture at the hands of law enforcement, according to a new poll released to coincide with the International Day in Support of Victims of Torture on June 26.

    The poll by independent Russian pollster Levada Center, which was commissioned by the UN-affiliated Committee Against Torture, found that 60 percent of Russians view torture under any circumstances as impermissible, while 30 percent approve of it in specific cases, including against a serious criminal or to help save a life.

    Of those who claimed to have experienced torture, 75 percent said it was aimed at humiliating or intimidating them.

    https://www.rferl.org/a/poll-shows-every-tenth-russian-has-been-tortured-kremlin-skeptical/30022063.htm

  19. sudden death says

    this is great picture, perfectly illustrating what a laughable type of RU landgrabism is the one which is masquerading itself as “RU ethnic nationalism” , e.g. Lithuania has roughly 85% non slavic Lithuanian ethnic majority, 5% Poles and 5% Russians, but they still paint it as a part of “Russia for Russians” and are somewhat surprised when people there are requesting more NATO military presence 🙂 there are other cultivated types of landgrabism in RF such as eurasianism, retrosovietism or retroimperialism, but at least those are little bit more internally consistent.

  20. The Big Red Scary says

    I’m not an expert, but I think it’s analogous to the difference between wiggers and rednecks. I’ve had mostly amicable interactions with both, so long as they aren’t too drunkenly aggressive.

  21. The Big Red Scary says

    Insignificant resident of Russia skeptical.

    I’ve lived here a number of years, know no one who has had any problems with the police, and my own interactions have consisted of “May we see your passport police? Right. Everything in order. Carry on.” and “May I see your automobile documents please? Right. Next time you really should be carrying a translation of your foreign drivers license. Carry on.”

    Maybe 1 in 10 Russians is a gopnik, and they really do get tortured?

  22. for-the-record says

    Insignificant resident of Russia skeptical.

    I am too, I took it as simply another example of “Western”-inspired propaganda.

  23. anonymous says

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/rusmap2.jpg

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/russian-nationalism-101

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/russia/41868/this-is-russia

    Do not worry, Poland and Romania also have their part in the Great Russian Galactic Empire.

    Poland and Romania will leave NATO and EU and became neutral buffer states like Finland.

    Do you think that Mr. Karlin’s visit in Romania was only for sightseeing? 😉

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/romania

  24. The Big Red Scary says

    I don’t follow them, but my impression in the past has been that Levada acts in good faith with respect to actual statistics, even if not in its after-the-fact moralizing. I’d be interested in hearing AK’s opinion that.

  25. Poll Shows Every Tenth Russian Has Been Tortured; Kremlin Skeptical

    As a resident of Russia, I am also extremely skeptical.

    Probably some trick with the “psychological torture” (the cop was rude to you – you are a victim of torture )

  26. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatnik_(slang)
    Its meaning is to disparage someone as a blindly patriotic and not very smart Russian.[4][5] “Put simply, the vatnik is representative of a certain archetypical Russian who slavishly supports the regime out of fear, hatred of others, or most often a combination of both.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopnik
    is a stereotype and subculture in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and other former Soviet republics to refer to young men of sometimes lower-class suburban areas (usually under 25 years of age)[2] coming from families of poor education and (sometimes) income.

  27. Thumbhead says

    Lol at some Russian screaming about black NATO troops in Poland, as if that compensates for the fact the Russia has millions of Muslims and record rates of AIDS

  28. Maybe 1 in 10 Russians is a gopnik, and they really do get tortured?

    don’t know about Russia but police generally make a distinction between “criminal class” and regular civilian (at least they did before immigration confused the issue).

    1 in 10 seems high though unless they did the survey in a particularly rough neighborhood.

    (unless when they say “torture” they include for example things like getting beat up if they put a cop in hospital during an arrest)

  29. John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan says

    Dreher might mean well, but I don’t really take him seriously. He is very “blue-pilled” when it comes to women and a bunch of other issues. The blogger Dalrock has an entire tag dedicated to condemning Dreher’s kowtowing to the Duluth Model of complementarian subversion of Christian churches. What right-wing Christian men need now is to learn to be men, but they aren’t gonna get that from Dreher’s playing footsy with whiny “Christian” quasi-feminist women.

    Dreher said he always felt less than accepted by his father, for one thing because he didn’t enjoy hunting and fishing like all the other rednecks in Louisiana.

    Dreher is therefore a perfect example that men should, in fact, learn to enjoy hunting and fishing. Otherwise they’ll be a bit of a sissy.

    I kid, I kid.

  30. Lol, at the moron who thinks I am Russian. Not sure how Russia having Muslims is an argument for Poland to have blacks.

  31. Poland: another country whiter than Russia and far whiter than wherever neutral lives. And will remain so.

  32. Climate change will accelerate the migrant and refugee problem and should be a focus of concern.

  33. You can’t remain white if you are subservient to anti white regimes, there are no hypothetical scenarios where Poland will remain white while still brown nosing both the USA and EU. The future news stories have already written themselves, it will be about how the Polish values of tolerance, diversity and democracy have triumphed over the xenophobes that are opposing the ever increasing numbers of non whites entering Poland.

  34. Turkey in trouble?

  35. The Big Red Scary says

    don’t know about Russia but police generally make a distinction between “criminal class” and regular civilian

    I think this effect is even stronger in Russia. I once had to fill out some papers at the police station to report a lost document. It was clear talking to them that my profession and others signs of social status were very important to them. Possibly why no one I know has had problems with the police is that no one I know is of low status. But this is no different from anywhere else I have lived.

  36. from previous thread cos too long

    Therefore, it’s extremely doubtful to me that …[snip]… 2) China’s growth can be stopped.

    China’s growth will be (and currently is being) stopped by supply and demand.

    if you move all the production to places with the cheapest labor who is going to buy the stuff?

    I think they will soon come to dominate the world.

    this is currently likely but more due to America’s collapse then unstoppable growth.

  37. RadicalCenter says

    Poles need to have far more children, as do Russians. If some of them wish to do so together, great! Talk about an impetus for better relations….

  38. Poles need to have far more children, as do Russians. If some of them wish to do so together, great!

    No, no more Ukrainians, please.

  39. Boswald Bollocksworth says

    Go ahead and get a лада if you like, but it’s simply a fact that Japanese cars, really Honda and Toyota, are the most reliable and well built. I would get a Honda Civic Si if I were you, if it’s available in Russia.

  40. BAMMAMA and POTWB in London.

    Blacks are more muscular and more aggressive.

    Pussification of the White Boy.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1148245498630955016

  41. Vishnugupta says

    The point of a Lada is that it is relatively cheap and now basically has Renault internals so is reasonably modern. The most visible modern car in Moscow/Spb is the Hyundai Solaris which is also what you usually get as the lowest cost option on yandex taxi. This corresponds to the Honda city which is a size smaller than the civic. Infact one does not find many Japanese cars on Russian roads mostly European and Korean.

  42. Do mechanics use torque wrenches in Russia when they change the oil gaskets? If not, you might over-torque or under-torque the bolts, and the leaking persists. Are they aware of the recommended tightening pattern? Here in California, home to Mechanics Without Borders, the answer is often “no” (except at dealerships). A metaphor for the new “good enough” California proficiency standard.

  43. Anonymous says

    Abuse. Including gratuitous ad homs, personal attacks, and/or slander against me or other commenters.

    Do AK’s rules of conduct apply to personal attacks on people who would never read his blog or UR?? Well, anyway…

    Rod Dreher is an effeminate, perfidious POS. A intellectual poseur with a journalism degree from LSU. LMFAO. This most this whiny little bitch could’ve hoped for in a truly merit-based world is to be the morning traffic reporter for a news station in Wheeling, West Virginia.

    https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/rod-dreher-and-the-politics-of-betrayal/

    rod dreher and the politics of betrayal

    …The period following Charlottesville has also been marred by many attempts to score political points. Most have been at the expense of President Trump, whose election has never been accepted by many in the mainstream media, the entrenched bureaucracy, or the left. But some of these attacks hit closer to home. On Friday, Rod Dreher used his perch at The American Conservative to attack one of the men who founded that magazine, Pat Buchanan. Dreher charged that Buchanan’s column from the previous Tuesday, “If We Erase Our History, Who Are We?”, was a “shameful defense of white supremacy,” “abhorrent,” and “disgusting, racist, indefensible.” From Buchanan’s statement that the belief that all men are created equal is “ideological,” Dreher concluded that “Buchanan repudiates not only the founding principle of our Constitutional order, but also a core teaching of the Christian faith, which holds that all men are created in the image of God.” To bolster his attack, Dreher then cited a similar attack on Buchanan by neocon Mona Charen.

    Without Pat Buchanan, The American Conservative would not exist. Thus, Dreher’s attack on Buchanan is an example of treachery and ingratitude, as well as Dreher’s customary hysteria. (Charen is an ingrate too, since Buchanan helped her in the Reagan White house and after). It is also false: Buchanan’s column merely points out, as suggested by its title, that if Robert E. Lee must go, so too must many other central figures in American and Western history. This may shock Rod Dreher, but Christians from antiquity on did not deny any core teaching of the Church by accepting or even defending the feudal hierarchies that characterized their societies, including the hierarchy the Church defended against the egalitarianism of the French Revolution. It may shock Dreher even more to learn that the phrase “all men are created equal” appears nowhere in the United States Constitution, which actually is the foundation of “our Constitutional order.” As a respected conservative author wrote to me after Dreher’s attack, “What Pat was clearly saying is that if we are to wipe the Confederacy from the historical record, so should we erase all the previous history of the West.[Dreher’s] misreading of the column is plainly willful. He’s playing some sort of political game or another, but who really cares?”…

    …Like many pundits, Dreher paid no price for being spectacularly wrong about Iraq, because he knows how to play the game, a game that encourages both calculation (including calculated attacks on those to one’s right) and adherence to the ever-expanding rules of political correctness. I think we’d be better off changing the rules of the game to encourage frankness and courage. Sadly, Dreher’s attack is just another reminder that those rules are unlikely to change anytime soon. Until they do, the last word belongs to one of the online commenters on Dreher’s attack: “A prophet is not without honor, except at his own magazine.”

  44. Mr. Hack says

    Great clip – still don’t know what the squatting is all about – perhaps some kind of holdover from Soviet times when everyone had to squat in the public stalls to find some relief? 🙂

  45. Mr. Hack says

    Meh, since Karlin started to refer to his fan club here as “faggots” maybe he has also started to refer to himself in the plural form? (JUST SAYING) 🙂

  46. wet ground

    kneel on one knee = kilt ancestry
    squat = pants ancestry

    ?

  47. Anonymous says

    Apparently that mugging was in South Africa not London. But anyway…

    https://www.dw.com/en/crime-kills-more-people-than-armed-conflicts-un-study-finds/a-49510578

    Crime kills more people than armed conflicts, UN study finds

    Far more people are killed in homicides around the world than in conflict zones, a sweeping UN study has found. The rate of women being killed due to domestic violence is also on the rise.

    Criminal activity is responsible for more deaths around the world than terror attacks and armed conflicts combined, according to a study published on Monday by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC).

    The sweeping study found that organized crime is one of the biggest drivers of homicides around the world, and that women are more often killed by their partners or family members.
    What are the main takeaways?

    – Some 464,000 people around the world were killed in homicides in 2017 — far more than the 89,000 people killed in armed conflicts that same year.

    – Organized crime was responsible for up to 19% of deaths worldwide.

    – Over 90% of suspects in homicide cases between 2014 and 2016 were men.

    – The number of women and girls killed due to domestic violence rose in 2017, accounting for 58% of
    all female homicide victims.

    – Europe has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world, with 3 victims per 100,000 people.

    https://www.dw.com/image/49514826_7.png

  48. “blacks are more muscular and more aggressive”

    The biggest factor is that they hunt in packs. I have seen videos of a high school wrestler who easily shoots (pardon the wrestling expression) a takedown upon his larger black assailant. The problem is, a few seconds later, the wrestler is on the ground being kicked by the colleagues of the assailant. Unless you were the county track champ at 200 meters and are wearing your running shoes, the best strategy unfortunately is give a wide berth.

  49. Their fertility rate is now 1.99 according to recently released stats. This masks a significant heterogeneity. TFR for kurds is far higher, for ‘ethnic’ Turks it is likely no more than 1.6-1.7.

    On top of that, Erdogan fired their central bank governor over the weekend and the lira has taken a drubbing today. The S-400 sale could potentially invite sanctions. India likely evaded such sanctions because India is too big and important in the chess game against China. Turkey isn’t.

    More fundamentally, Turkey’s growth model, to the extent there is one, has been built on cheap credit and a massive construction boom. This has meant running huge current account deficits which in turns has indebted their private sector. Getting indebted in foreign currency is not a good thing when running huge CADs because as your currency gets weaker, the cost of repaying those foreign-FX loans increases.

    There are also tensions within the country. Erdogan has had a very liberal immigration regime, so now there are millions of arabs roaming the streets of the country. Talks about imminent deportation remain hollow. The recent win of the secular opposition in major cities should not mask the fact that they have often been more strident on nationalism/ethnic identity than AKP, while being less religious in the process. I personally prefer AKP in power, because a weak Turkey is good for Europe. CHP, the secular opposition, can tap a lot of high IQ turks both at home and abroad, which makes them more formidable. They are also more likely to influence the EU given their secular nature and ease with Westerners. Finally, AKP in power exposes many turks living in Europe as a fifth column, which is good for our domestic politics.

  50. or maybe not

  51. I bought a 2000 Si new in the US. Two years later, it was stolen from my driveway and found off the Belt Parkway stripped. Insurance gave me 200 more than I paid. That car was rated the most stolen car. The rice boys and auto parts crooks love Civics, especially the Si.

    To avoid that happening again, I’ve had two Spec Vs (02 and 06). The quality control isn’t as good. Nissan took a down slide after its merger with Renault. When compared to the Civic Sis of that period and a few years after, the Spec Vs are known for having better torque. I noticed that right away. 0-60 times are quite overrated. 0-30 is a more practical speed gauge. The Civic Sis of that era needed to be highly revved to achieve their top times in the 0-60 range.

    The newest Si has a small under two litre engine, coupled with a turbo making a good deal of horsepower. With that makeup, and its being relatively new in the Honda line, I’d be concerned about the long term durability of that engine.

    Thinking about a V6 Accord stick in the future. Honda is said to make the best shifters.

    Toyotas are generally more reliable than Hondas. Hondas are generally more fun to drive. In terms of reliability, the now discontinued Grand Marquis, Lincoln Town Car and Crown Vic are good options.

  52. In fact one does not find many Japanese cars on Russian roads mostly European and Korean.

    Is that so true in the Russian far-east when compared to St Pete and Moscow?

  53. Anonymous says

    From “I have a dream” to “I lick ice cream”.

  54. Sure, and France, the UK, and Sweden were ‘whiter’ than Russia for the vast majority of their history, that’s not the case anymore. But keep believing that a ruling class that’s heavily Americanized and integrated with the EU will somehow sustain a thousand year Polish ethnostate.

  55. Young punks of all ethnic groups are bolder when in a group against one. On Long Island, some upper class white kids are prone to this, albeit nowhere near as violent as MS13. There’s also the matter of MS13 wannabes as opposed to the real deal.

  56. Not Raul says

    AK

    I would be interested in hearing more about the effects of sanctions on Russia, who benefits, and which third party countries have benefited from being middlemen involved in sanctions evasion.

  57. Anonymous says

    Meanwhile whites view other whites as the biggest threat.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/452024-trump-says-he-will-no-longer-deal-with-the-uks-ambassador-to-the-us

    Trump says he will ‘no longer deal with’ UK’s ambassador to US

    President Trump on Monday said he would “no longer deal with” the U.K.’s ambassador to the U.S. after leaked cables revealed the diplomat’s blunt assessment of the Trump administration.

    In a pair of tweets, Trump bristled at Ambassador Kim Darroch’s description of him as “inept” and suggested a new British government could make changes…

    If I say I hate England will I violate AK’s rules of conduct again.

    Abuse. Including gratuitous ad homs, personal attacks, and/or slander against me or other commenters.

    Uh oh, by pointing this out did I violate another rule??

    Doxing

    I just outed him as a Brit citizen as well. But at least he’s not a deep cover MI6 operative.

  58. Is there an all-white country you don’t hate, other than perhaps Belarus?

    Again, the stupidity of white nationalists never fails to amuse. Though the only ones I’ve encountered have been here.

  59. But keep believing that a ruling class that’s heavily Americanized and integrated with the EU will somehow sustain a thousand year Polish ethnostate.

    I actually happen to know people from the Polish ruling class (relatives of elite politicians, living in the USA). They look upon what happened in Germany with madness and horror, and voted for Trump. That’s the Polish ruling class.

  60. Gopniks are the lumpenproletariat. Vatniks are Uralvagonzavod workers.

  61. I agree. I would find it credible if it was in the 2%-5% range.

  62. Getting a car not in the ~top 10 of popularity is not a good idea for people on a budget in principle because whatever marginal benefits in quality you get will be swamped by greater costs in mechanical servicing. But FWIW, I am currently pondering between the Lada Vesta and the Skoda Rapid. I’ll go testing tomorrow.

  63. I broadly covered this before, but sanctions don’t affect everyday life to any significant extent (there has been a period of economic stagnation since 2014, but that was due more to the collapse in oil prices, and fiscal+monetary tightening).

  64. PiS politicians are not the totality of the Polish elite, there is a substantial neoliberal element too. Furthermore Polish youth are largely converging to western European norms (liberalism included). I really hope that there’s some kind of paradigm shift in western Europe in the next couple decades, but otherwise a small country like Poland (or even the Visegrad group + Ukraine) simply does not have the resources to resist against the collective financial , political, and cultural power of the EU and the US which are utterly opposed to the existence of ethnic nation-states and traditional values.

    Just because some populists got elected does not mean the future of any nation is ensured. That kind of complacency is what allowed western states to be ruined gradually even though the majority of normal people were deeply opposed to demographic change and cultural revolution.

  65. John, I think that you are one of the more confused commenters here at Unz.

  66. Anonymous says

    I agree. I would find it credible if it was in the 2%-5% range.

    A population of approximately 146 million. Approximately 80% of that Russian. So at approximately 5% the number of people tortured would be around… I figure… exactly 6 million!

    Yes, yes, 5% is the number. Any estimate less than 5% and you’re a Torturecaust denier!

  67. …Polish youth are largely converging to western European norms (liberalism included).

    The liberal drift is something most societies experience among its better educated. The best thing that Poland (and V4) have going for them are the difficult languages.

    The most likely scenario is the migrants from Western Europe moving east and gradually taking over a few metropolitan areas. EU freedom of movement works both ways – and then they can start bringing in their tribal relatives from back home. This is extremely hard to stop, EU has no internal borders. In the long run it is impossible to be in a borderless super-state (like EU or US) without being impacted by the migrants.

    Most people live mentally in the past, they see EU for what it once was. Or West in general. Most people will also trade small personal benefit for an eventual destruction of their society. Brussels has incentives, the populists are by definition isolated within each nation. This will be an uphill struggle and Poland might last longer than most, but at the end what difference will that make?

  68. prime noticer says

    now this is the level of craziness i expect from democrat cat ladies posting in new york times comment sections. bravo, ladies. you didn’t let me down.

    https://i.imgur.com/19EORoW.jpg

    TRUMP IS IN THE CENTER OF IT ALL!

  69. Not Raul says

    Thanks. You guys already knew how to make good cheese. I’ve tasted some wonderful cheese from Sovetsk/Tilsit.

    I was wondering if the Marc Rich’s old associates have benefited from recent sanctions against Russia like they benefited from sanctions against African warlords, Apartheid-era South Africa, and Iran during the Iran-Iraq War.

  70. War for Blair Mountain says

    Two things:

    1)FAREED ZAKARIA….GO BACK TO THE TOILET BOWL INDIA….GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY COUNTRY!!!!

    2)BRING HOME THE TROOPS NOW!!!!

    Well, that’s about it for the time being folks.

    Not quite…..Was the Jesuit Priest Father Edmond Aloysious Walsh the head of a SECRET CABAL OF HOMOSEXUAL PEDERASTS who met late a night at Comet Pizza to plot the destruction of Russia on behalf of the Anglo-Zionist Empire from HELL?

  71. Somewhat off-topic, but do you think that a different German Chancellor in 2015 would have still done what Merkel did in regards to letting a million largely Muslim migrants into Germany?

  72. Economic success of Turkey (until now), is still pretty interesting.

    They managed it without having significant significant (enough to export) oil and gas. At the same time, with a brown population.

  73. , other than perhaps Belarus?

    I think white nationalists would be safe supporting Latvia, Estonia, Hungary, Croatia, Poland etc.

    Hungary, Latvia and Estonia, at least combine it with good economic policy, and Latvia and Estonia support things like gun owners’ rights.

    But Belarus is probably a bad idea for white nationalists to support, if they look at some of the rich people there. Or that Lukashenko claims all his Prime Ministers are Jews, and the government promote Jewish culture days in the centre of Minsk.

  74. I think white nationalists would be safe supporting Latvia, Estonia, Hungary, Croatia, Poland etc.

    Neutral hates them because they are all NATO members.

    But Belarus is probably a bad idea for white nationalists to support, if they look at some of the rich people there. Or that Lukashenko claims all his Prime Ministers are Jews, and the government promote Jewish culture days in the centre of Minsk.

    So the white nationalist neutral, must hate every all-white country on the planet, lol.

  75. Honda and Toyota/Lexus are the most reliable automobiles according to general consensus – but I never heard that Honda is behind Toyota.

    Grand Marquis, Lincoln Town Car and Crown Vic are good options.

    Older 1970s versions of these are beautiful

    What about the legendary “land yachts”

  76. In terms of repair record (long term trouble free durability) Toyota is in overall terms ahead of Honda. Not that Honda is bad. It runs a strong number two.

    It all gets down to what you’re looking for. A US car magazine rated the Nissan Altima ahead of the Toyota Camry in the categories of style, comfort and performance. Long term durability wise, the Altima will likely have more problems. Darn shame what happened to Nissan.

    Yeah, those 1970s boats were something. Upgraded with some modern technology and they’re great for the present. Car chase scenes from that period (like in the CBS aired Hawaii Five O) glaringly reveal the bouncing (when cornering) no longer as evident with modern luxury cars.

    As for the modern day versions, never buy a Crown Vic or Lincoln Town Car from the police or cabbies. They love them to death. Specifically, if they’re willing to sell them, you can be sure that such cars are toast.

    A lot of old folks prefer these cars – Grand Marquis included. Best to buy from them. In the US, there’re mechanics who specialize in inspecting a used car for a prospective buyer. For $100 dollars or so, they run a full computer scan, along with checking for body work, any evidence of a flooded car, frame damage and leaks.

    My bro got a great deal on a 2000 Toyota Avalon XLS (stretched out Camry).

  77. In your mind a white nationalist should judge countries entirely by present demographics to the total exclusion of other factors and future trends?

    Several people have given coherent arguments for why Poland and other BASTE countries are actually in a very precarious situation, but I guess we should all just trust in Hetman AP von Habsburg’s szlachta informers that Poland will remain a 99% white conservative country for all eternity.

  78. So the white nationalist neutral, must hate every all-white country on the planet, lol.

    Poland only became (almost) all-white due to the Holocaust, though. Ditto for some other Eastern European countries, such as Latvia and Lithuania.

    Historically, Poland was more Semitic than Western Europe currently is. Of course, quality does matter.

  79. In your mind a white nationalist should judge countries entirely by present demographics to the total exclusion of other factors and future trends?

    I just think it’s funny that a white nationalist should hate every all-white country on the planet. I guess white nationalists really are that stupid?

    Several people have given coherent arguments for why Poland and other BASTE countries are actually in a very precarious situation

    You think those arguments are coherent? Here are the ones I’ve read here:

    1. Most of the all-white countries belong to NATO. There are a few hundred African-American troops there. Somehow this means all the local women will have so many babies with those soldiers that the countries will stop being white sometime.
    2. Most of those all-white countries belong to the EU, which has open borders and in which the Western countries are full of migrants. EU itself was 2% Muslim in 2015, but this number is a lot higher now. Perhaps 4% or even 5%. Somehow a lot of Muslims, already living in rich and generous countries like Germany or France, will move to poorer Poland, Latvia etc. where they get much less benefits and have no local community to support them. They will do this why? And years after the migrants came to western Europe they haven’t done this. Indeed almost all of the few hundred who were settled in the Baltics (they were barred from Poland) left for Germany. *

    “Of 349 asylum seekers taken in by Lithuania, 248 left as soon as they had received official refugee status, according to Robertas Mikulenas, director of a reception centre in Rukla, a small Lithuanian town.”

    “So far 317 refugees allocated to Latvia have arrived in the country, but no office has records of their whereabouts. The fact that none are using the mentoring services available to those with official refugee status suggests they have left.

    In Estonia the situation is similar: of the 136 who arrived on the EU programme, 79 have moved elsewhere in Europe. Refugees in Estonia receive €130 a month.

    Once granted asylum, a refugee can travel freely within the EU and join friends and family in Western Europe – and the Baltic countries have fulfilled their obligations under the EU quota scheme.”

    1. Russia is somehow the better alternative. Even though it has more Muslims than the EU (it is as Muslim as the most Muslim EU countries such as France) and is actually in the Eurasian Union with Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan (there are no Muslim countries in the EU).

    Those are very coherent arguments as for why, for white nationalists, actual all-white countries are so terrible.

    *Full article:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40479224

    ‘They don’t give us anything’
    He only learnt he was going to Latvia a day before his flight. He was not allowed to choose the destination himself, and was not happy about it.

    “There are lots of Eritreans everywhere in Europe. They talk to one another. We all know that in Germany they give you an apartment and €400 (£350; $450) pocket money. But in Latvia they don’t give us anything – just €139 a month,” he told BBC Russian.

    In Riga it is hard to find a one-room flat to rent for that money. But there are no plans to increase benefits.

    “Those are our allowances and we can’t afford to pay people more – we aren’t that kind of country,” said Ainars Latkovskis, head of the Parliamentary Commission for Internal Affairs.

    “They can of course look for work. But by Latvian law you have to speak the language to get a proper job and it usually takes years to learn,” he said.

    Mekharena says it is the low living standard that makes refugees leave Latvia as soon as they get their papers. He knows many asylum seekers who have done exactly that.

    “Most of them couldn’t survive here. They can’t accept the difference [between incomes in Latvia and Germany]. Lots of them borrowed money to get to Europe and they need to pay it back,” said Mekharena. He himself paid people smugglers $3,000.

    Of 349 asylum seekers taken in by Lithuania, 248 left as soon as they had received official refugee status, according to Robertas Mikulenas, director of a reception centre in Rukla, a small Lithuanian town.

    Benefits for refugees in Lithuania vary from €102 to €204 a month.

    So far 317 refugees allocated to Latvia have arrived in the country, but no office has records of their whereabouts. The fact that none are using the mentoring services available to those with official refugee status suggests they have left.

    In Estonia the situation is similar: of the 136 who arrived on the EU programme, 79 have moved elsewhere in Europe. Refugees in Estonia receive €130 a month.

    Once granted asylum, a refugee can travel freely within the EU and join friends and family in Western Europe – and the Baltic countries have fulfilled their obligations under the EU quota scheme.

  80. The most likely scenario is the migrants from Western Europe moving east and gradually taking over a few metropolitan areas.

    Yes, in your mind it is very likely that migrants will move from richer countries with generous benefits to poorer ones with almost no benefits. Even though they haven’t started doing that after several years already, and indeed do the opposite (Poland hasn’t taken any migrants but the Baltics took a few hundred; almost all of them moved freely to the Western EU as soon as they got their papers).

  81.  EU itself was 2% Muslim in 2015, but this number is a lot higher now. Perhaps 4% or even 5%

    It doubled in less than 5 years and that isn’t concerning to you? A huge percentage of the white population is past reproductive age and young people have much lower fertility than the migrants, who continue to come and won’t stop. Furthermore, Africans and other problematic non-Muslim immigrants are just a much a threat as the Muslims.

    They will do this why

    Because in 10-20 years Poland will be much richer and more liberal while the western countries will rapidly decline in their ability to support more parasites. Try as hard as you possibly can to understand the concept that things change over time and the situation will be different in the future.

    Russia is somehow the better alternative

    The majority of Russian Muslims are Tatars and Bashkirs who are completely civilized and secular. More importantly, Russia puts absolutely no pressure on their sphere to accept Chechens or Kazahks. Compared to the US and EU which are ideologically committed to destroying homogenous nation states in Europe. On this issue Russia is absolutely superior from the perspective of Europeans.

  82. PiS politicians are not the totality of the Polish elite, there is a substantial neoliberal element too.

    Even those are more skeptical of migrants than are Westerners. PiS wanted and got no refugees, its rivals were willing to accept a very small number. Here is Poland’s neoliberal party:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/politics-nationalism-and-religion-explain-why-poland-doesnt-want-refugees/

    Grzegorz Schetyna, the leader of Civic Platform, first told a reporter that his party was against accepting refugees — something of a problem since it was the previous Civic Platform government (in which Schetyna served as foreign minister) that agreed to accept 6,200 asylum seekers from the EU pool.

    Within days Schetyna scrambled back, saying Civic Platform was against “illegal migrants” but that he favored accepting “the few dozen people who want to come to Poland.”

    :::::

    So that’s the difference. Zero refugees vs. a small symbolic amount, most of whom will just move to Germany where incomes and benefits are higher, once they get their EU papers.

    Furthermore Polish youth are largely converging to western European norms (liberalism included).

    They seem to be getting more Czech-like – more secular and less homophobic, yet solidly anti-migrant.

    otherwise a small country like Poland (or even the Visegrad group + Ukraine) simply does not have the resources to resist against the collective financial , political, and cultural power of the EU and the US which are utterly opposed to the existence of ethnic nation-states and traditional values.

    West is not monolithically pro-migration (look at Trump and Italy) and can’t force anything on little Hungary, let alone the 100+ million in Visegrad + Ukraine.

  83. I should add that I am not a supporter of Putin and the RF and there is obviously an immigration problem there too, though not nearly as bad is in the west.

  84. EU itself was 2% Muslim in 2015, but this number is a lot higher now. Perhaps 4% or even 5%

    It doubled in less than 5 years and that isn’t concerning to you?

    It doubled because of a large wave that has now largely ended.

    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/17684/production/_105067859_illegalcrossings640-nc.png

    A wave that never touched Visegrad. It would have to double yet again to get to where Russia is now already.

    Furthermore, Africans and other problematic non-Muslim immigrants are just a much a threat as the Muslims.

    And just as unlikely to move to Visegrad.

    They will do this why

    Because in 10-20 years Poland will be much richer and more liberal while the western countries will rapidly decline in their ability to support more parasites

    LOL, you believe this? Poland is so far behind Germany that it will not come close to converging in 10-20 or even 50 years. It closed the gap from having 1/3 Gemany’s per capita GDP PPP to about 60% and has been stable at that level:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-DE

    PP has shown that Poland is becoming more secular, but not more liberal with respect to migrants.

    Try as hard as you possibly can to understand the concept that things change over time

    Try to look at trends in data rather than relying on (negative) wishful thinking about “things changing over time.”

    Russia is somehow the better alternative

    The majority of Russian Muslims are Tatars and Bashkirs who are completely civilized and secular.

    Chechens, Afghans, and Iraqis were once fairly secular. You just wrote “Try as hard as you possibly can to understand the concept that things change over time.” Lol.

    More importantly, Russia puts absolutely no pressure on their sphere to accept Chechens or Kazahks. Compared to the US and EU which are ideologically committed to destroying homogenous nation states in Europe.

    Poland and Hungary have had no trouble staving off efforts to settle their countries with small numbers of refugees.

    Compared to EU and ES, Russia is in a customs union with 2 Muslim countries. Putin wants others to join.

  85. Because in 10-20 years Poland will be much richer and more liberal

    Counter-evidence:

    https://eu.boell.org/en/2017/06/14/poland-polish-taking-closer-look-polish-rejection-refugees

    Additionally, the ultra-right is highly present in the public sphere and offers a variety of social and political activities to the young, as for instance discussions, holiday camps and street campaigns. With its activities, the All-Polish Youth aims to shape the identity of young people and promote traditional, Catholic and patriotic values. It furthermore rejects any foreign influence, especially from the West. The strong activity of ultra-right movements can at least partially explain the high degree of far-right radicalism among Polish youth: Since 2014, the proportion of right wing supporters among Polish youth has rapidly increased and has become higher than in the overall population. In the first three quarters of 2015, as much as 33% of Poles aged 18-24 have described their political views as right-wing [30]. Accordingly, opposition against taking in refugees from the Middle East and Africa is proportionally the highest among people below the age of 45

  86. Where is Dugin and Dick Spencer?? Low energy!

  87. Vishnugupta says

    I was told there is an active market in second hand Japanese cars in Russia’s far east but I have not visited Russia’s Far East.

    I do wonder exactly how a significant number of Japanese Right Hand drive cars would work in Left Hand drive Russia.

    But Japanese manufacturers seem relatively absent from Russia across all sectors.

    The Hyundai Solaris which is a popular car in Russia is sold as the Hyundai Verna in other markets like India,Thailand etc. where it faces stiff competition and usually looses to the Honda City.But Honda seems uninterested in the Russian market leaving Hyundai/Kia to corner the segment.

  88. I do wonder exactly how a significant number of Japanese Right Hand drive cars would work in Left Hand drive Russia.

    In Japan, the Japanese have made left hand driven cars. I understand that there’re made in Japan Lexus models in North America. I had a made in Japan Acura Integra.

  89. Stagger the posts…. It’s just good marketing. Write them and file them away on delay.

  90. LondonBob says

    I was in Warsaw in 2004 for a few months, there were about five black people, you could actually recognise each one individually when you saw them. I went back a couple of years ago and the number of blacks I could see was starkly increased, still not many but the increase was noticeable, perhaps not so much for the residents themselves, the old boiling frog problem. I don’t recall seeing any blacks in Moscow, except a black women in a high end club who looked like a model.

  91. LondonBob says

    Probably, just a product of the political elite’s ideology. Merkel admitting those immigrants was thought as the best means to boost the moribund EU economy. This might seems nuts to us but that is what they think.

  92. Vishnugupta says

    Yes but those are upscale new cars.

    Japanese second hand cars are almost always right hand drive. These are the ones being exported to Russia’s far east.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/sputniknews.com/amp/analysis/20121003176382673/

  93. Start with likes of Salvini and Orban and yes Putin, nobody is perfect, but at least they are not total arse licks to the USA. If you care more about getting a pat on the head from the USA, a very anti white regime, you are anti white.

  94. The boiling frog is real, the rate that the water is heating up these days is much faster than it used to be.

  95. There are actually a fair amount of blacks in Moscow, it’s just that they generally keep a low profile for their own good. The closest thing to a black neighborhood you’d find is the Patrice Lumumba Friendship University near Yugozapad. But it’s very heavily policed and quite safe.

  96. Thera are 20 times more Africans in Russian than in Poland.

  97. Several people have given coherent arguments for why Poland and other BASTE countries are actually in a very precarious situation,

    While I do agree that the Intermarium countries are not entirely safe and certain measures should be taken immediately, the “arguments” that you guys have given are not all that coherent and lack in real life detail.

    A typical mistake you guys make is projecting America’s situation on the EE. America is in a very peculiar situation where technically immigrating to the US is quite hard, yet at the same time there is a certain anarchic attitude about it and there are immigrants coming all the time. FOB Indian families, Chinese students, etc. Education programs, churches, immigrant social networks, NGOs, etc. These aren’t really present in EE, nobody’s gonna build them there, there are simply no resources for that and the interest is minimal. Also, Intermarium states, regardless of their difficult histories, are basically ethnostates, the ethnostate centered ideology has not yet been switched to the multiculturalist one. Also, PC’ism is much much worse in the US, there is hardly any in EE, the public discourse, despite of the polarization of society between conservatives and liberals, is nowhere near as PC. Nowhere near and possibly never will be. Another difference is that American nationalists are oppressed, while in Intermarium they form small factions in the government.

    E.Europeans have also been colonized from both sides, so their sense of foreign influence is a little more acute. Colonial powers tend to have a certain grandeur, a generosity of the soul, a certain assimilating tendency, that is evident for instance when the French say – everyone in France is French, or some English feel that they can take care of others because they are so rich and it’s “the right thing to do”, E.Europeans lack this. They can be quite stingy even towards each other. The typical thinking is that nothing should come for free. I’m not saying this can’t change, it’s just there are important nuances there, that you as an American do not know of.

    I agree with Beckow that we entered the EU with the thought of entering as ethnostates to join other ethnostates, and that there might have been some miscommunication there – we thought of “diversity” as ethnic and linguistic diversity, not world citizenship. It is a bit awkward but we can still argue that rules where changed in the middle of the game – this is not really what we signed up for. Thus rules need to be renegotiated and there are already calls to do that. Europe is not what it was in 2004. The EU is not a federation, countries have rights and things can still be discussed.

    It may not be NATO membership that will decide the demographics – Poland has been in NATO for 20 years and all those years it had outmigration, but it took just a couple of years of steady 4% growth for third country migrants to appear. (Also, NATO itself needs to be renegotiated, from a political to defense alliance, so that Poland could be like Turkey – an ally but with its own culture).

    The actual workforce needs on the ground right now are more important than the “Western ideology”. Many businesses (both local as well as investors) are screaming for labor. Should they be given all they want? No. But the needs of at least the local businesses (foreign investors is a separate story), should be addressed. This is currently being addressed by the large influx of Eastern Slavs into the Intermarium countries. Yes, that includes not only Ukrainians, but even Northern Russians! This alleviates the labor shortage and a potential recession could alleviate things even more.

    The current migrant profile looks something like this: mostly re-patriating Poles, Estonians, etc., relatively small chunk, but it’s there; a relatively large chunk of Eastern Slavs who either stay or rotate, and a third group, “Others”. This is larger in Poland and Czech Rep, I imagine, and minuscule or practically non-existent in the Baltics (but it has appeared, alarmingly, although it’s hard to say how many of them are tourists or transients into the West). Most of those are also workers and not welfare migrants because EE politicians deliberately keep those welfare payments small (Latvian nationalists in fact made sure the payments to migrants are reduced and the politicians care more about building a large concert hall than taking care of the migrants). The key would be to source repatriants as well as Slavs, so that there would be no space left for anyone else. According to some data, 30% of EE migrants in the West want to return home, if we succeeded in repatriating them it could be hundreds of thousands of people.

    Oh, and there is another tiny immigrant group – Germanic husbands. 🙂 Very nice, hard working, cute with flaxen hair, potentially easy to assimilate eventually.

    Btw, another mistake of yours is the perception that the threat is from the West – and while I don’t disagree that in the future, even in the near future, it is a potential threat, currently the majority of third country migrants arrive from Russia, via the Northern route.

    So, yea, what matters is not some ideological slogans, but how the situation will be handled on the ground. All in all, EE is very homogeneous and very pleasant, with visibly rising living standards to top it off.

  98. Well, Adam, the issue in Russia is that ethnonationalists (the kind that roam freely in Intermarium) are incarcerated now. There is also Caucasian crime – a few weeks ago a former spetznaz soldier, a young, tall, good looking Russian guy, was simply stabbed right in the heart by an Armenian and died in his girlfriends arms. The Armenian just got on the plane and left.

  99. Gopniks have their own status ranking, too — three stripes on the Adidas track suit indicates higher status. And a gold chain. Always nice to put on a brand new Adidas track suit and go to a friend’s birthday party (or even a concert). 🙂

  100. DreadIlk says

    This really going to take civilization down a level. Let in brown people next thing you are putting temper proof packaging for icecream. How much is that going to raise the price of food?

  101. DreadIlk says

    Relatives living in the US is all you need to know about the elite.

  102. Yeah, the brother of a member of the Polish ruling class is pretty close. Especially when one has gone to Poland and spent time with them. It gives a good idea.

    You, on the other hand, don’t even know anything about the city where you live:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/russia-regains-pace-voting-rights/#comment-3319498

  103. I did agree with your line of arguments because you dealt well with the nonsense brought up by Adam however you went too far and your spin is too strong. Things do not look as good as you paint them. (1) Poland is bringing way too many workers from Asia. Poland has no means to deport them when/if their work visas expire. In practice they all will become permanent residents and once they have children they will be parents of Polish citizens. (2) Poland does not put much effort in repatriating Poles from Russia and Ukraine and does nothing for Poles in Lithuania and Belarus. (3) Most importantly the influx of Ukrainians is way too big. Ukrainians will not assimilate, so an ethnic minority (most likely hostile) is being created in a mono-ethnic country.

  104. Adidas can also be sponsor of traditional local sports

  105. DreadIlk says

    The guy accused wasn’t the perpetrator. He turned him self in. Other caucasians were busted and the guy that flew away will be extradited. But otherwise yes Russians are a little bit cucked in their nationalism. Difference is they need like 40 years to get to the cuckiness of the west.

  106. DreadIlk says

    Ha anyone that follows that thread will know that you are full of shit.

    Anyways more of your retard thinking. Extolling values of a culture where the elite prefers to live somewhere else. Btw before your retard brain short circuits I know this a problem among Russians and Ukrainians too.

  107. Mr. Hack says

    Ukrainians will not assimilate, so an ethnic minority (most likely hostile) is being created in a mono-ethnic country.

    I wouldn’t be to sure about that. From what I’ve seen, Poles and Ukrainians do assimilate, one to another quite easily. Genetically, they’re closer to one another than anybody else in the neighborhood. The Bandera stuff wont last forever, and it seems to be the only thing keeping them apart at the moment. Rome seems to be encoraging the UCC (Ukrainian Catholic Church) in taking a more pronounced role in Ukrainian political life, and has always encouraged friendly relations between Poles and Ukrainians (at least in modern times).

  108. Immigrants flood countries where they can improve their quality of life, and which have more welfare relative to other options (or alternatively, countries like Egypt, which they see as transition country).

    Ukraine is far too poor and quality of life is not any mass immigrants (even from countries like Syria) want.

    Ukrainians are emigrating even to countries like Turkey. And Turkey is not Norway or Sweden.

    Poland is a different issue, because they part of EU open borders area, while being next to countries (like Germany) where life standards are far higher.

    Few normal immigrants would choose to live in Poland, when they can as easily live in world class countries like Germany, Denmark or Sweden instead. So Poland is receiving only mass immigrants from Ukraine, because those Ukrainians cannot work in other EU countries.

    • If you want to talk about future changes. It’s possible Poland will eventually become become as rich and attractive to immigrants as Western European countries. But this is not the current situation.

    On the other hand, Ukraine will not be rich for a long time, and if it would join EU, the problem will be keeping people in Ukraine.

    Even if you are optimistic for Ukraine’s economy, it won’t be close to Turkey’s current income level until 2030s in the most optimistic scenario (and by then Turkey’s income will be a lot higher).

    • This discussion is a bit comical. I’m sure everyone is dreaming of immigrating to Ukraine, because – Ukraine’s famous high salaries, lack of HIV, world class hospitals, smooth roads, and political stability?

  109. Poles and Ukrainians do assimilate, one to another

    It is not a good deal for Poles if they have to make an effort in their own country to “assimilate” to Ukrainians. It is not a two way street. You are already displaying an attitude of a minority with entitlements of hostile minority. This is not what assimilation is about. Immigration should be an unconditional surrender. And this can’t be expected from Ukrainians particulary in large numbers. It might be easier to assimilate a singular African than an Ukrainian. He might appreciate being adopted to a more evolved culture. Ukrainians will never appreciate their host as they are full of resentments towards everybody and especially towards Poles. Poles do not need Ukrainians with a chip on shoulder which you have just displayed.

  110. DreadIlk says

    In other news. Sharij’s party is polling above 5% in Ukraine. Fun times about to start. I bet AP and Hack are crying over their marginal parties getting shit results.

  111. from richer countries with generous benefits to poorer ones with almost no benefits.

    Visegrad countries are richer than parts of the West overrun by migrants. They also have great benefits by any standards (well, maybe Poland doesn’t, their benefits are marching around woods scaring themselves silly).

    You are also comparing current situation to the future, the relative attractiveness of V4 is growing. Even today Prague and Bratislava are in the top 10 EU regions in GNP/capita.

    For almost anyone among the 5 billion potential migrants in the Third World, V4 would be a paradise. They go to UK-Germany-France-Sweden because of languages and already existing tribal networks – and because those countries are run by liberal morons. Brussels wants to spread it, and last time I checked they were the ones making the rules.

  112. Can’t figure out if Disagree or Troll is more appropriate here.

  113. Mr. Hack says

    It is not a good deal for Poles if they have to make an effort in their own country to “assimilate” to Ukrainians.

    I didn’t say anything of the sort. Outside of perhaps maintaining a few of their own churches, Ukrainians will assimilate into Polish society quite seamlessly. Especially by the third generation. And vice-versa. At one time, up to 1/10 of the population in Ukraine was Polish – they’ve all pretty much assimilated into Ukrainian society too. Believe me, Poles would rather have assimilated Ukrainians fit into their society than Blacks or Asians. The two cultures are very similar including their languages, and as I mentioned previously, they’re genetically almost identical.

  114. Neither. Perhaps you should look at some data. I found this:

    https://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-russia-africans-20141102-story.html
    Some academics estimate Russia’s African diaspora at just under 100,000, of which roughly one-third are believed to be undocumented. The remainder includes registered students, African embassy staff members and blacks who hold Russian citizenship.

    https://minorityrights.org/poland-sub-saharan-africans-and-the-struggle-for-acceptance/
    This included a sizeable number of sub-Saharan African citizens – not only students but also tourists, diplomats, business workers, professionals and refugees – who together now constitute a group of some 2,100 people.

    If true then my factor of 20 should be raised to 50.

  115. At one time, up to 1/10 of the population in Ukraine was Polish – they’ve all pretty much assimilated into Ukrainian society too.

    The assimilation was aided with Volhynia massacres of 100,000 or more Poles. Unfortunately nowadays Poles could not resort to similar methods to improve the rate of successful Ukrainian assimilation in Poland.

  116. …this can’t be expected from Ukrainians particulary in large numbers

    An interesting feature of eastern Europe (and probably elsewhere) is that closely related groups often end up disliking or even hating each other when in a single country. Life has its share of day-to-day resentments and disappointments – and a competitive group dynamic kicks in.

    What is even worse is that a society that is already partially divided – let’s say Poles, Ukrainians, Silesians with an ambivalent attitude to each other – create a situation where there are incentives to bring in more outsiders, often as a tool against the others.

    Look at Canada and the way Quebec is slowly self-destructing by trying to attract ‘French-speaking migrants‘ – because having a lot of Haitians and Senegalese is so much better for everyone. At the end it leads to atomised, mutually hostile societies that are easily manipulated from the top. That’s the point, if you are missing it, you don’t get the underlying dynamic.

  117. Mr. Hack says

    Unfortunately nowadays Poles could not resort to similar methods to improve the rate of successful Ukrainian assimilation in Poland.

    Well, in the past the Poles had their own version of the Volyn Massacre called Akcia Wysla that was a forerunner of the later. Why do you say ‘unfortunately’ when referring to barbaric measures of the past. Shouldn’t people learn from their mistakes and try to move forward, or should they be eternally stuck in the quagmire that paralyzed both societies in the past?

  118. AND if HE runs away, don’t think you’ve won; he’s just gathering his homies to come back and kick your ass.

  119. That kind of complacency is what allowed western states to be ruined gradually even though the majority of normal people were deeply opposed to demographic change and cultural revolution.

    the biggest factor (imo) is television especially children’s.

    places where populists still have a chance need to set up their own TV station* and produce their own non-pozzed children’s entertainment**.

    • alternatively have a state funded TV station (like the BBC) but with elected commissioners who decide on what is allowed.

    ** or at least choose what is allowed to be shown, like old disney is fine.

    Polish youth are largely converging to western European norms (liberalism included)

    the foundation of pozworld is the blank slate ideology – funding research into genetics is the best way to undermine it.

    the truth leverages itself so even small countries or blocs with limited resources can take on big lies.

  120. in your mind it is very likely that migrants will move from richer countries with generous benefits to poorer ones with almost no benefits

    one of the main vectors is illegal immigrants working in ethnic restaurants.

    they are trafficked by the owners and stay because their extremely low pay is still higher than what they can earn in their home countries and eventually neolib traitors create amnesties for them which then leads to family migration etc.

    also a key point here is whether or not globalists want to either a) get rid of white people specifically or b) simply maximize divide and rule.

    either way it means they will actively encourage immigration e.g. resettling refugees in rural towns like in the states.

    also women – which is a bigger part of this than usually mentioned. a lot of the worst countries have a large surplus of males cos female infanticide etc.

  121. the banking mafia off-shored western industry to various countries (China, Turkey, Brazil etc) which created the illusion those countries were doing well.

    the subsequent drop in demand in the west due to the loss of those jobs is why the globalist system is now crumbling and why the “emerging markets” are all going under (except high IQ China) – cos it was never indigenous, all external.

    (China was originally external i.e. off-shoring but they had the brains to build on that foundation.)

  122. https://blogs.worldbank.org/opendata/nearly-1-2-world-lives-under-550-day

    For example, in Indonesia and Pakistan, both lower-middle-income countries, only 7 and 5 percent of people live on less than $1.90 a day. However, 26 and 33 percent of the population in these countries live on less than $3.20 a day and more than two-thirds and three-fourths of the population live on less than $5.50 a day. Even in Mexico and China, both upper-middle-income countries, over 25 percent of the population lives on less than $5.50 a day.

  123. DreadIlk says

    I can’t speak for him but for me it means that it will be a bigger problem in the future. I rather shoot the boats then to deal with their descendants.

  124. Some academics estimate Russia’s African diaspora at just under 100,000, of which roughly one-third are believed to be undocumented.

    Complete nonsense. Who the hell are these academics? Perhaps wisely, the article doesn’t clarify.

    Also practically none of them are becoming citizens: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/russian-immigration-2016/ (Nigeria: 26, Cameroon: 13, Sudan: 10; Congo: 6).

  125. Gerard1234 says

    LOL……….just when this farce couldn’t get more ridiculous, it turns out that the maggot Gabuniya from the Saakashvili channel Rustavi-2, who insulted our President and Russians in general……….is indeed a faggot – with the gen.director of the channel, Nika Gvaramiya!

    So- just a drama queen having his period and suffering withdrawal symptoms after the end of the “gay-pride’ freakshow event in Tbilisi.

  126. BengaliCanadianDude says

    Where are the watermelons?

  127. Gerard1234 says

    Shouldn’t people learn from their mistakes and try to move forward, or should they be eternally stuck in the quagmire that paralyzed both societies in the past?

    HAHAHAHA!- how shameless Mr Hack , you cretin. It’s trailer trash banderatard idiots like yourself who actually MAKE A SPECIFIC TARGET of dragging Ukraine back – giving it some fictional history from 400-800-1200 years ago – all with the purpose of sabotaging the realities of today’s Ukrainians ( mentality, language, culture , economy and so on)

    Talking of “learning from mistakes” when your existence on this blog involves imposing some BS from the Stone Age in the area of the fake country called “Ukraine”

  128. Your biggest costs will be purchase, insurance, fuel and whatever anti-car taxes the city authorities impose in the near future (if moscow is becoming as bobo as you claim). Servicing isn’t that expensive. I’m not sure what the parts situation is like in Russia, but in England ‘premium’ marques have only slightly more expensive spares, as long as you’re not dumb enough to go to main dealers for them. You’d need to get something seriously exotic before the premium becomes unaffordable (Ferrari etc, even Porsche parts aren’t that bad) Mechanics’ labor ought to be much cheaper over there as a fraction of a moscow professional’s salary. Ever since mechanical ignition and carburetors were phased out in the early 90s car reliability has been a non-issue and fussing over it is a boomer pathology. If you want to buy a Lada out of patriotism, then go for it, but don’t rationalise. An uaz jeep would be much cooler though.

  129. In practice they all will become permanent residents and once they have children they will be parents of Polish citizens.

    Indeed, utu, this is far from ideal and, as you see, a few years of high growth was all it took (also, globalization is very fast now, it seems like the last 10 years the movement of people everywhere has accelerated).

    Poland does not put much effort in repatriating Poles from Russia

    This is indeed an untapped pool. I encountered a couple of what they call in Russian “repatrianti” in the Baltic states. They were totally Russified grandkids of someone that got sent to Siberia but very open to learning the language and staying. These are very tiny groups of people, but in Poland’s case it might be a larger number, and might be worth tapping into. Also, it’s kind of our duty to those people…

    Most importantly the influx of Ukrainians is way too big.

    I understand. Ukraine is going through a very hard time, so I believe they should be treated well (have insurance, get paid on time, etc), we have them, too, they are diligent and nice people. However, it might be too many in Poland, I agree. I really hope some of them will go back to Ukraine, because if you look at this issue from Ukraine’s point of view, they’re losing people that they themselves will need.

    Ideally, all of the E.Europeans who are willing to repatriate, should be able to return. Measures are being taken to help people return, but they’re not sufficient. In Poland’s case, this would be a huge number of people and would solve the labor shortage problem.

  130. Thanks for that info. Well, for Nikita’s mom and girlfriend it doesn’t matter. Nobody wants their son or boyfriend around those hotheads. Kadyrov’s men did crazy things in Donbass.

  131. Totally agree, there will be many who want to live there, it is already evident. The migrants are also learning the local languages (this is new). We need to make it clear conceptually that we are not aspiring to the Western living standards and that it is not our goal to be like the West (this doesn’t mean the living standards have to be low at all and in some cases will be higher, as in access to medical care, high culture, etc).

  132. LOL, you believe this? Poland is so far behind Germany that it will not come close to converging in 10-20 or even 50 years. It closed the gap from having 1/3 Gemany’s per capita GDP PPP to about 60% and has been stable at that level:

    Considering that Poland and Germany have comparable average IQs, eventual convergence–maybe in 50 years or so–is certainly very possible–especially if large-scale low-IQ immigration is going to reduce Germany’s average IQ even further (according to PISA, migrants are already significantly bringing down Germany’s average IQ).

    Compared to EU and ES, Russia is in a customs union with 2 Muslim countries. Putin wants others to join.

    This customs union is unlikely to progress much beyond that since even ex-USSR Muslim countries are unwilling to give up their independence, though.

    Also, Ukrainians themselves voted for an EU-style economic union with tens of millions of Central Asian Muslims back in March 1991. Apparently this idea wasn’t so scary for Ukrainians back then.

  133. Agree. Countries like Poland and Baltic states that are attractive to Ukrainians and Belarusians should change their naturalization laws. The only naturalization should be possible via marriage and children born to a permanent residents should not be granted citizenship automatically as it used to be in Germany and every law violation by a permanent resident should end up in the immigration court where deportation should be considered. And no unemployment benefits to work visa/permanent residents.

  134. Operation Vistula and Volhyn Massacres cannot be put in the same sentence. The former consisted of deportations within Poland to Western and Northern former German territories in Poland where they moved up by 50-100 years in civilizational level in terms of infrastructure. At the same time NKVD was doing a similar operation in Ukraine but they, according to Wiki, killed 32,000. And how many families deported to Siberia or Kazakhstan died nobody knows.

    I used the ‘unfortunately’ in jest to let you know that your extolling the alleged assimilation of Poles in Ukraine was inappropriate in the context of circumstances they found themselves among the despicable people of the god forsaken place.

  135. “we are not aspiring to the Western living standards and that it is not our goal to be like the West”

    Untenable. If there is no growth you will loose your productive population to emigration and unless you bring up the replacement immigrants you will end up with a skansen where Westerners will be coming to milk cows and smell natural pig manure on their eco-safaris.

    The problem seems to be unsolvable. However the pressure of business lobby that wants cheap labor definitively must be resisted as much as possible. Wages and salaries in Eastern Europe must be put on par with those in Austria, Germany and France. But I do not know how to accomplish this w/o breaking the back of economy.

  136. “An interesting feature of eastern Europe…”

    Nothing is interesting about it. Eastern European nationalism is younger and thus more virulent. Furthermore there is the effect of the familiarity breeds contempt and der Narzissmus der kleinen Differenzen.

    As far as Quebec is concerned you are trivializing the issue. They are not that dumb to believe that Haitians would help them with Anglos from Ontario but rather powerless to resist effectively manipulation they are subjected to. So they are played just like pretty much everybody everywhere is being played by the same agents of “the inevitable progress and modernity.”

    But you are correct that the presence of Ukrainians in Poland will make Poles more susceptible to being manipulated and in the long run it will lead to the entrenchment of neoliberalism and ditching any chance for capitalism with a human face and thus everybody except for the plutocrats and oligarchs will be worse off. Sweden is being subjected to this operation. The successful welfare state of Sweden was offending sensibilities of bankers for decades and thus had to go. It was planting bad ideas in people’s mind that neoliberalism might not necessarily be the end of history. No neoliberalism is the end of history and it is the desired end of history. This is what everybody is supposed to believe.

  137. Georgians played along perfectly – Russia can now institute total economic blockade and point to subhuman behavior for provoking them.

    The sanctions and total economic warfare should have been imposed long time ago – since 2008.

  138. Complete nonsense? Do some research and tell us how many Africans are currently residing in Russia? How many children did they produce while in Russia that will qualify for Russian citizenship that will not show up in the statistics that you quoted.

  139. Russia has a population of 144 million people but only 70,000 of them are black.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-44253936/world-cup-2018-being-black-in-russia

  140. Look, the point is that with 100,000 Negroes in Russia, you would be seeing packs of them every single day in Moscow whenever you use the metro.

    In reality, I see them about 2-3 times a month – and I do get out quite a bit. They are almost invariably either tourists or student types.

    I don’t need some hack from the BBC who laments that Russia has too few Negroes to lecture me about my lying eyes.

  141. That’s right. There’s something martial about the tracksuit. They should have a special gopnik tracksuit brand (with hoodies). They could call it “Rayon”.

  142. Drudge / Daily Mail breathlessly reporting that a Russian journalist has been charged in Orwellian crime. Hmmm, I can’t read the Russian but sounds a little strange.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7228375/Russian-journalist-charged-controlling-mindsby-referencing-Orwells-1984-article.html

    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4025487

  143. Gerard1234 says

    Poland: another country whiter than Russia and far whiter than wherever neutral lives. And will remain so.

    LOL you prick ( I would have thought the debacle of your “linguistic expertise’ would have relegated a POS as you to never appear on here again, but this doesn’t appear to be the case)
    Poland isn’t a “white country” in the sense of what people are thinking when they use the term

    There is white..and then there is “white” in the sense of white civilization – intellectual and cultural superiority together with their skin colour – comprised of Europe and the English speaking world of US, NZ, Canada and Australia.

    Obviously Poland doesn’t classify as “white” in that sense you idiot because it has been an intellectual and cultural blackhole of Europe for centuries ( honourable exceptions for Copernicus, then Kosier – communist leader of Ukraine immediately leading upto the William randolph-Hearst – Coca-cola-World-Series ‘Golodomor” , and Dzherzinsky as Poles have nobody else at all to idolise) .
    Poland is essentially defined by failure against Russia ( Russia defeating polish barbarism) – any “whiteness” or”pseudo-catholicism” in Poland artificial and masks a massive drain in population there in the last 20 years – exporting human trafficking, drug smuggling, extreme cases of robbery, drunken car crashes and domestic violence into otherwise civilised countries in the EU ( like the UK, where Poles in British are by far the highest foreign national in prisons – even though there are large numbers of long-time populations from Ireland, african countries and India/Pakistan)

    Crisis in EU is from 3 things –

    1.direction of Italy – which would almost certainly not be in the strongly anti-EU government it is now, if parasite Poland accepted 40000 immigrants ( a country that unlike sucessful and stable Czech rep, Hungary and Slovakia is not a net exporter of people but has kept it’s population the same for 25+ years should not allowed to refuse to make even basic concessions)

    1. Russia relations – Sure, mainly America drives this, but after that it is Poland driving the idiotic policy towards Russia – a policy where Moldova, Gruzia and of course, Ukropia keep f**king-up even more extravagantly by the month –
      Russia – a country that survives or wins against all odds, Poland – a country that fails despite all the odds in favour of them

    2. UK relations with EU – Brexit is solely due to the poles – that refusal for migrant concession but mainly because of immigration – Indians, Afro-carribeans and Irish ( some chinese) have been in Britain for decades or even over a century – but it is only from when mass waves of immigrants from Poland arrived ( not Romanians, Albanians or anyone else who were the problem) since 2004 that there has been developed severe distate towards the EU, centred on immigration, in Britain

  144. I do not follow your logic. The BBC hack is not lecturing your lying eyes. He is agreeing with them that there are only 70,000 out there. But perhaps you are right and the number is much lower.

    Russia is not a place known for its large African community. Afro-Russians, as many like to be known, make up only roughly 40 000 of its population of more than 144 million.
    https://citizen.co.za/news/news-world/1965705/if-you-thought-there-were-no-black-russians-you-were-wrong/

  145. Didn’t AP previously say that there are 20,000 blacks in Ukraine, though? Russia is three times more populous than Ukraine, so if the Ukrainian figure is accurate, 60,000 blacks in Russia wouldn’t seem too unreasonable.

    Your personal observations might suggest a much lower number of blacks, though. Of course, you haven’t actually been everywhere in Russia.

  146. 100,000 blacks out of a population of 148 (or 146) million is less than 0.10%. Thus, less than 1 in 1,000 Russians are actually going to be black even if this figure is accurate–which would mean that you shouldn’t see blacks in Russia too frequently unless a lot of them live in one place (specifically a place close to where you are).

  147. Quebec is powerless because they focus on the wrong stuff, enhancing their ‘Frenchness’. Something similar is happening all over: Poles, Ukrainians, Russians fight each other about historical stuff that won’t make one iota of difference in the future. If Europe is gone as a European civilization, the precise boundaries, and who controls the few refuges for white Europeans will be only of minimal interest. It is hard to sustain those enclaves in the long run if the dominant culture in Europe becomes something else.

    I agree that Sweden was offending a lot of finance elites – it had to be undermined, and they found a way. But there was also an internal weakness that snuck in, maybe the prosperity, maybe something deeper.

    With neoliberalism and its global dreams, I have started to drop the ‘neo’ and simply refer to it as ‘liberalism’. Same way as what we have is simply ‘capitalism’. Let’s call spade a spade. Liberalism has had a great run, it fits human nature quite well, we are selfish, acquisitive, and easily bought. What liberalism cannot sustain is an ongoing civilization that can perpetuate itself. Liberalism’ obsession with ‘laissez faire’ leads to inactivity. Liberalism fatal weakness can be summarizes as ‘there is no economic or hedonistic value in having a family‘. So liberalism is inherently going to over time destroy any society – it is simply not possible to go on without normal family creation. What is fascinating is that most liberals don’t care – they are true end-of-liners.

  148. Moscow and SPB – slightly more than ten percent of RF’s population – is where almost all Negroes in Russia are concentrated.

    One in a thousand might well be the correct figure for specifically Moscow. In the provinces, they are singular curiosities.

    Frankly I think AP is wrong on 20,000 Negroes in the Ukraine, if he actually said that.

  149. I think 20,000 is the credible max for Russia, though I suspect it’s closer to 10,000.

    Ukraine would be in the low thousands, like Poland. Less tourism than in Russia, but possibly more students relative to population, since the Ukraine is even cheaper than Russia.

  150. It’s nice, but the striped trouser has not been cool since about 20 years ago.

    In Yakutsk, kids can afford some nice costumes –

  151. 20k? Just do not count these Russian blacks:

  152. Liberalism and neoliberalism are different, in the modern sense. That’s why they had to invent this new word “neoliberalism”, because they changed the meaning of the original concept liberalism to match something more like “social democrat”.

    Neoliberalism – Fujimori, Pinochet, Thatcher, Berlusconi, Bolsonaro, Orban, Netanyahu, etc.

    Liberalism – Obama, Sweden, Jacinda Ardern, views of BBC, New York Times, etc.

  153. Putin’s interview with the Financial Times.

  154. The assimilation was aided with Volhynia massacres of 100,000 or more Poles.

    I think he was referring to the Polish population of central Ukraine in the 18th century. About 10% of the population then were ethnic Poles (petty nobles, and Mazovian peasants who settled due to lighter serfdom). These were almost all assimilated into Ukrainian culture by the late 19th century. Peasants intermarried with peasants, petty gentry with petty gentry. The only Poles who didn’t assimilate were the very wealthy nobles. Gogol (from Poltava region, further East) was 1/4 Polish, this was typical.

    If I am not mistaken, Mr. Hack is of mixed Polish and Ukrainian descent.

  155. Frankly I think AP is wrong on 20,000 Negroes in the Ukraine, if he actually said that.

    I certainly did not say that.

  156. Mr. Hack says

    Polish migration into Ukraine goes much further back than the 18th century. Also, I strongly suspect that the major Slavic tribe for both nations, the Polianins, were the same or at least very closely related. How else can one account for the great similarity in DNA structure between Poles and Ukrainians?
    My mother, a fiery Ukrainian patriot, never allowed me to appreciate her father’s Polish background – I guess she didn’t want me to grow up with any complexes. 🙂 I found out about this while visiting Ukraine. My other three grandparents were all Ukrainians.

  157. How else can one account for the great similarity in DNA structure between Poles and Ukrainians?

    Depends on an individual basis. In many other instances can read as: How else can one account for the great similarity in DNA structure between Russians and Ukrainians?

    BTW, Polish ancestry among Russian nobles and non-nobles is evident as well. Cheers to the late great Kiev born Russian inventor/patriot Igor Sikorsky.

  158. ….neoliberalism – because they changed the meaning of the original concept liberalism to match something more like “social democrat”.

    There is not even remote similarity between neoliberalism and social democracy, so claiming it is odd. Social democracy largely disappeared by 1990’s, what has carried the name since then are the usual centrist liberal policies with more emphasis on preserving pensions or longer vacation time.

    Looking at individual leaders is pointless – they have almost all been de facto liberals for the last 20-30 years. What they disagree on – or pretend to disagree – could fit on a small index card: abortion, pension age, how many F-15 planes to buy, congestion charges, and whether to attack Russia now or wait until it gets weaker (or Iran, N Korea, Venezuela, etc…). Western leaders are inter-changeable.

    Trump is a non-conformist who irritates the elites, but he is in his actions within the liberal mainstream. There is a lot of noise, but no change. We are also seeing a new generation of clowns among leaders and that is interesting, since historically young clowns grow up to be servants. Go figure.

  159. Well, in the past the Poles had their own version of the Volyn Massacre called Akcia Wysla that was a forerunner of the later

    Akca Wysla came after Volhynian massacre and it was not really comparable – the former involved brutal slaughter of up to 100,00 people, the latter involved forced deportation (and probably a few hundred deaths).

  160. Mr. Hack says

    You’re correct, I had in mind the “pacification” of Eastern Galicia in the early 1930’s that was the first round of ethnic unrest fomented by the Poles over Ukrainians after WWI, many that were peaceful bystanders. Although at most 35 Ukrainians died during these obtrusive raids, many Ukrainians that lived within approximately 495 villages felt the brunt of this Polish violence. These raids contributed to the already unruly climate of those times.

  161. I thought AK was trolling you but he appears to be serious.

    HK has at least c. ~40000 South Asians. How many of them do you see, say, in the video below?

  162. Good memory. I said it was an estimate by an African, though I didn’t dispute it in the post. It seems rather high, but even so it’s a tiny % – about .05%.

    I don’t recall seeing more than an African or two when I was in Kiev. I saw some in Moscow, though very few, it was a few more. They were yelling to entice people to come to restaurants. I saw one poor guy being hunted by skinheads late at night, he ran past us in a nearly empty the metro station looking scared, and they were following.

  163. Thorfinnsson says

    Merkel made a snap decision to admit them, overruling the Interior Minister, because she heard television crews were going to film the police shutting down the border invasion.

    Seems highly likely another German Chancellor would not have made the same blunder, especially since it violated the Dublin Convention and thus undermined Germany’s entire EU strategy.

  164. Ukrainians are very close to Poles, however the order of genetic proximity is:

    1. Belarussians
    2. Slovaks
    3. Russians
    4. Poles
  165. Anonymous says

    To this excellent post I would add another point:

    Immigrants don’t choose a destination country by opening up the CIA Fact Book, finding the list of countries ranked by per-capita GDP and then cross-referencing which ones have the most benefits; they have a gestalt which is largely based on the reputation of a country in their own countries. Certainly a wealthy country with a well-developed social welfare system is desirable, but they are also looking for countries that are perceived as tolerant and open-minded, preferably ones which already have large communities of their coethnics.

    Eastern Europe is still generally regarded in the rest of the world as a brutal, intolerant and backwards place (as compared to the rest of the continent). To overcome this reputation in the minds of Third Worlders will be a long, slow process, one that happens gradually over several decades. And that’s assuming it will ever happen: public sentiments in EE seem to be overwhelmingly skeptical of the situation in Western Europe and they are probably not so arrogant/stupid as to think (as Western Europe did) that “where others have failed in creating a multicultural utopia, we will succeed!”

    Put another way: there’s a reason immigrants tend to prefer Belgium/Netherlands/Sweden to Ireland, even though the latter is now wealthier. Sometimes negative stereotypes can work to a country’s benefit.

  166. Number 2? There are other kinds of proximity:

  167. I saw one poor guy being hunted by skinheads late at night, he ran past us in a nearly empty the metro station looking scared, and they were following.

    As I wrote in a comment above, judging the amount of blacks in Moscow by how many you see is potentially deceptive. They keep a low profile, cluster, and are very careful about moving around the city. I wouldn’t be surprised if the situation in Kiev is similar.

  168. How many do you think there are in Moscow and Russia?

    As someone who actually lives here as opposed to utu etc.

    Perhaps there is a hiding factor involved, though I don’t know to what extent that’s feasible. They still need to go to shops etc. And Bantoids tend to be a sociable and gregarious lot, who like to peacock.

  169. Its good he was scared, because eventually if the usual “lets be tolerant” crap becomes the norm then the people that will be scared in the metros will be white people.

  170. Mitleser says

    Is Ireland really wealthier if you take into accout the tax haven status?

    Ireland is harder to reach than the other countries you mentioned (no Schengen Area, an island shielded by Britain), though which should help.

  171. i think he was saying liberalism (original unfettered capitalism) had turned into social democracy so the return to unfettered capitalism (with added poz) was dubbed neoliberalism.

  172. Ireland is a good example of a country where the main driver of immigration is the active betrayal of their ruling elite.

  173. Ireland’s version of Blair/Macron/Trudeau etc

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Shatter

  174. Mr. Hack says

    I’d be curious o know whether your research indicates whether Slovaks are closer to Ukrainians or Czechs genetically? If they are, it would seem kind of strange, as both the Slovak and Czech nations seem to have sprung out of ancient Moravian state. Also, the Slovak languge is closer to Czech than it is to Ukrainian.

  175. Mr. Hack says

    Also, as you know the Russian grouping is clearly dilineated into two large clusters: a northern grouping (where the real Russian ethnos developed) and the south-eastern grouping that had an immense presence of Ukrainians from Ukraine and from the Kuban. I suspect that if you were to break down the Russian genetic structure into these two groupings, the northern one would fall lower on your rung on your latter, closer to the Poles or even below it?…

  176. A new guitar god is gracing us with his presence – Marcin Patrzałek of Poland.

    I’d start with his recent performance at America’s Got Talent.
    Then a couple of my personal favorites are his arrangements of “Master of
    Puppets” by Metallica and “Toxicity” by System of a Down.

    Warning: his videos can become addictive, and he is only 18. Needless, to say,
    he is already quite rich, and very much in demand.

  177. Mitleser says

    It keeps happening!

    Merkel has another shaking fit for the third time.

    Coincidentally it was during the German national anthem again…

    https://twitter.com/SuspendedTruth/status/1148928433864548352

  178. So what could this be? Is this Parkinsons?

  179. reiner Tor says

    A good dose of nostalgia:

  180. reiner Tor says

    During the Hillary Clinton 911 Collapse Saga some commenters claiming to be doctors said they were sure it was Parkinson’s. I don’t think those comments stood the test of time, and I didn’t think so already in October 2016.

    Probably many things can cause the same symptom, some of which are not very serious at all.

  181. reiner Tor says

    a northern grouping (where the real Russian ethnos developed)

    It depends what you mean. The Russian ethnos developed from the southern grouping, but conquered the northern areas and assimilated the Finno-Ugrian peoples there. Then some people from present-day Ukraine settled in South Russia, reinforcing the southern grouping.

    But it’s obvious the original Russian ethnos was very close to the ancestors of present-day Ukrainians.

  182. Thorfinnsson says

    Hillary Clinton hasn’t made many public appearances since the election, so we simply don’t know.

    It’s clearly she was not in good health during the election, but the cause of her poor health was unknown.

    Probably something as banal as being old, evil, and overweight.

  183. judging the amount of blacks in Moscow by how many you see is potentially deceptive. They keep a low profile, cluster, and are very careful about moving around the city

    In St. Petersburg part of black is tourists (in Moscow, probably the same thing). So it can be assumed that the visual assessment is potentially deceptive in the other direction

  184. From Karlin’s latest twitterings:

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1148909978805252096

    Set aside the subject, because there is no better strategy for country of 150 million people to openly pursue genocide of the rest of the world.

    Let us look at the choice of the words.

    Kakold?

    WTF is “kakold”?

    Great patriot Karlin does not know any of many ancient Russian words for husband of unfaithful wife?
    Great patriot Karlin knows, but wants to appear “worldly” and “civilized” by using badly transliterated foreign words?

    Hard to find what alternative is sadder.

  185. suspect that if you were to break down the Russian genetic structure into these two groupings, the northern one would fall

    Northern Russians are genetically very far from any Slavs

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/PLOS_3.PNG

  186. The Russian ethnos developed from the southern grouping,

    The Russian state’s original core is the vicinity of Novgorod, where the population is (currently) a mixture of Northern and southern Russians
    https://d.radikal.ru/d30/1907/02/cbc7de6693b1.jpg

  187. You confuse the ancient Rus people with the modern day Russians. This would be as inaccurate as doing so with the Ukrainians as well. Both peoples emerged from the Rus superstate into two separate nationalities, not unlike your own Slovak people and the Czechs emerged out of ancient Moravia.

  188. I think that most historians would start the modern development of the Russian nation in Vladimir and not Novgorod. The first prince that is identified with this movement would be Vladimir III of Moscow in the 15th century.

  189. Contribute to the list, Гражданин.

    https://twitter.com/diogen_tv/status/1124702119146262528

  190. Not my fault you’re not familiar with modern Russian slang.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A2ch.hk+%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B4

  191. RadicalCenter says

    Nobody of even average intelligence and reasoning abilities — merely or anyone — could sincerely think that the economy would be helped by importing millions of people who do not speak or understand let alone read and write the German language, lack any meaningful training or education or marketable skills in their own countries already, are native speakers of totally unrelated languages.

    Add in the fact that in Germany, like in the USA and elsewhere, large numbers of unskilled and lower-skilled jobs are being eliminated by automation and scanners, and will be eliminated by more capable robots and artificial intelligence in the immediate future, not the long term. Specifically many jobs as supermarket checkout jobs, restaurant cook, retail clerk, office work like insurance claims adjusting, truck or Uber driver — the very jobs that unskilled or low-skilled people with limited German knowledge might do —- are diminishing and will likely be much more greatly diminished soon.

    Add in the fact that the invaders, aka migrants, were and are overwhelmingly adherents of a religion that teaches them to hate and subjugate the natives, and come from otherwise incompatible or less compatible cultures, and it becomes an even more obviously suicidal idea.

    Yeah, there are already few jobs that the invaders can do, and the jobs they might do are being automated and otherwise eliminated, but at least they’re not from a similar kindred people and observe a religion that command them to conquer and subjugate and never truly compromise or assimilate wherever they go.

    If you think Merkel sincerely thought that the invaders would help Germans or their economy, you are far too naive or just a nice person giving too much credit 😉

    Remember merkel’s disgusted reaction when handed a German flag. She hates her own people and at a minimum doesn’t care whether they survive and thrive as their own culture and polity.

    Germany is almost at the point of no return. If they admit zero Muslims and zero nonEuropeans for permanent settlement from 2020 on, the existing muslim and noneuropean population continues to grow by births while the German population continues to decline. Every single year, without exception.

    As for percentages, no way is the EU only 4-5% Muslim now. More to the point, some countries are nearing ten percent and growing fast, as well as caving to Islam and increasingly aggressive Muslims demanding that their lifestyle, mores and rules replace white European law and culture (including sharia law): Sweden, followed by France and England and the Benelux countries.

    We will have a Muslim-majority London, Paris, Stockholm, Rome and Naples, Vienna, Belgium, Amsterdam and Rotterdam within 20 years, not longer. Wait till the white flight, and simply nonMuslim flight, begin in earnest from the EU to Eastern Europe, the USA and Canada, and Russia if Russia allows it.

  192. reiner Tor says

    I think that’s not entirely accurate. She’s already been seen in public several times. Had she had Parkinson’s, it’d probably have been noticed over the past three years. I’m pretty sure she has enough enemies within the Democratic Party for things like that to leak out anyway. Maybe it could be concealed from the public by skillfully managing her medications and her few public appearances, however, from Emailgate she didn’t come across as some kind of intelligence mastermind who could pull it off.

  193. I would say that the original liberalism (or unfettered capitalism) was defeated in the first half of the 20th century by different kinds of nationalism and socialism. Liberalism simply wasn’t working – if you look at public discourse from that time, there is a consensus that liberalism was a failed system, few defended it any more.

    Liberalism didn’t recover until late 20th century, first in the anglo world and then – often by force – elsewhere. This time a new trick was introduced: massive migration flows to destroy the power of labor. You can trace it to US ‘supply side’ ideology – the idea was that if there is close to unlimited supply of labor on all levels, the elites can take complete control of the society. Working people with limited power to negotiate are powerless, in some ways they approach almost feudal or slavery status – except they are free to move. That last part has destroyed the national nature of many societies. But the ‘toys’ – as always with unfettered business – are great, they were quite amazing the last time liberalism was reigning (what the f.k: a bicycle, now we have a talking phone).

    It has been done gradually, and it often exempts the current groups and is applied only to younger people to dilute resistance. But we know where this is going.

  194. We will have a Muslim-majority London, Paris, Stockholm, Rome and Naples, Vienna, Belgium, Amsterdam and Rotterdam within 20 years, not longer.

    world’s smallest violin

    PS: Rome, Naples, Vienna not really

  195. Thorfinnsson says

    The press kept secret the fact that the only four-term President of the United States was a cripple.

    And something like a Parkinson’s diagnosis, unlike being a cripple, is private unless a person (or a highly unethical physician) chooses to share it.

    It’s this entirely possible she does in fact have Parkinson’s, though I agree that’s probably not it.

    She’s just generically unhealthy. If there’s any degenerative disease(s) it’s something like type 2 diabetes, osteoporosis, rheumatoid arthritis, etc. Perhaps hypertension or even some kind of lesser heart disease.

  196. anonymous says

    Time for some optimism – the alt-right keeps growing, the good news continues to spread.

    Another anarchist far leftist joined the alt-right. The alt left declines, the alt-right grows!

    https://twitter.com/anarchopac/status/1148698207343587328

    As you see, his heart was always on the right place, welcome your new comrade!

    https://twitter.com/BluePillWhite/status/1132890746116345856

    https://twitter.com/orby89942579/status/1148707151336148992

  197. RadicalCenter says

    Do you want to live as a nonMuslim minority in a Muslim society? Or, separate if overlapping questions, do you want to live as a minority in a heavily African, Arab, Turk, or Pakistani society? One need not hate those peoples, and I don’t, to want to strive hard to avoid that fate.

    Are you aware of some Italian baby boom in or around Rome or Naples that the rest of us haven’t heard about?

    Have the nonEuropean and Muslim populations increased in both those cities — every year without exception — for the past couple decades, or not?

    As the Italian populace on average ages even further, there will be fewer Italian women of healthy/safe childbearing age left to start turning things around. That will cause the excess of Italian deaths over births to increase.

    Even if the noneuropean and Muslim settlers in Italy lower their fertility to mere replacement rate — a very optimistic assumption — Italians themselves have a shockingly low TFR and will make up a slightly smaller share of the population, then the electorate, each year.

    We haven’t even speculated on white and nonMuslim flight out of northern, western, and Central Europe. That phenomenon may pick up steam substantially pretty soon as levels of violence, intimidation, and hostility against both whites and nonMuslims increases.

    As for Austria, check the numbers on Muslim students as a percentage of Vienna schools and tell me that Muslims (especially Turks, in that case) will not be a majority within 20-25 years.

    But your violin crack was really clever, and a good argument to boot.

  198. reiner Tor says

    The press kept secret the fact that the only four-term President of the United States was a cripple.

    In the 1930s and 1940s. Not many smartphone cameras around, nor social media where they could be shared. Would it still be possible in 2019?

  199. reiner Tor says
  200. You don’t get it, do you?
    Atlanticism/Homoglobalism must die.
    And for them to die, their foundations must crumble, those are the host (formerly) white nations and especially largest/capital cities.

    No one is actually afraid of packs of Africans, Turks, Muslims, mestizo manual workers and criminals – if their political cover and global sponsors – the USA/West were suddenly out of picture, there would be nothing preventing the nation states from getting rid of them.

    Every single illness that befell modern white nations can be traced back to London, NYC and Washington DC – you are addressing consequences, I am pointing to sources and causes.

  201. Kuru

  202. I think that most historians would start the modern development of the Russian nation in Vladimir and not Novgorod. The first prince that is identified with this movement would be Vladimir III of Moscow in the 15th century.

    A strange mix of whistful thinking with the history of an alternate universe (Vladimir III of Moscow)

  203. LondonBob says

    I remember reading an economic report put out by an investment bank, can’t remember the name of it, where they talk about this as being a motivator for Merkel admitting the immigrants and it being discussed as such at Davos. We might not understand it but we should know what our opponents think. That is why biodiversity is important and scientifically debunking blank statism matters.

  204. Novgorod being in modern day Russia.

    A Novgorod prince resettled his base to Kiev, around the time of when the entity known as Rus (also termed as Kievan Rus) is dated to have begun. Kiev crown princes were involved with developing the areas in Moscow in Suzdal. “Ivan the Terrible” was from the Riurik line of monarchs who ruled over Rus. Likewise, it’s not like there has been centuries of migration of others regarding the Rus lands that included Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.

    For accuracy sake, one should be wary of broad DNA claims. To date, there hasn’t been any (in participatory terms) DNA study coming close to the population surveys from the areas in question.

    It makes sense that many (not all) of northwestern ethnic Russians have closer links to Scandinavia when compared to many (not all) Slavs in modern day Ukraine, with ancestral links to Kiev. Conversely, many (not all) of the latter grouping have links with a non-Rus/non-Scandinavian group/groups, when compared to many (not all) of the former.

  205. Mr. Hack says

    All of your ‘sense’ seems to only lead to attempts to denegrate DNA studies that interpret migration patterns and attempts to explain ethnicity, etc;

    To date, there hasn’t been any (in participatory terms) DNA study coming close to the population surveys from the areas in question.

    I’m no expert on the topic (as you seem to be 🙂 ), and can wait for other readers here to chime in. So far, melanf has presented information that contradicts your subjective (wishful) projections.

  206. Mr. Hack says

    You’ve got me. I meant Ivan III of Moscow:

    Ivan the Great,[1][2] was a Grand Prince of Moscow and “Grand Prince of all Rus'”. Sometimes referred to as the “gatherer of the Russian lands”, he tripled the territory of his state, ended the dominance of the Mongols/Tatars over Russia by defeating the Golden Horde, renovated the Moscow Kremlin, and laid the foundations of the Russian state. He was one of the longest-reigning Russian rulers in history.

    Perhaps even more grand than the current Czar!

  207. As has been true in past instances, your sarcastic jibe is factually off the mark.

  208. Motivations are hard to know. Why Merkel did it will be only of academic interest. She also wasn’t alone – it must had been a group decision. The idea that they would actually think that this would ‘stir up’ EU economy, well, one can’t exclude it since they are mostly out-of-touch morons, but the economic argument is also a favorite excuse (a lie, really) for almost anything liberal globalists want to do. They justified 1999 war against Serbia as ‘important for economy’, and then Iraq, Libya, etc… they don’t believe it, it is just a way to sell things. Very similar to someone selling you on an investment.

    People like Merkel-Macron are salesmen for the global system – their main role is to manage the populace by doing enough promising and some pain to keep people from turning on the system.

    Epigon is right that the problem are the traitors among Europeans, and not just among the elites. Many of them benefit from the mass migration, e.g. the elderly, government workers, NGO prostitutes, older women with emotional instability, and now it seems that even our priests would rather have slightly larger flocks than a liveable society. Until this sizeable group is no longer making decisions – or blocking them – there is no way to change any of the policies.

  209. Northern Russians cluster with Finnic and Baltic populations. Central and southern Russians cluster with Poles, Belarussians, and Ukrainians. Swarthier appearance of Ukrainians and southern Russians is probably attributable to Balkan admixture.

    Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253976/

    Seems pretty conclusive to me.

  210. Ukraine is fake and gay.
    They should have went with Rusia or Rosia, based on Kiev, Galich and all other Rurikid principalities and heritage.
    Present themselves as truer, better Rus’ heir, location of original Metropolitan seat.
    This would lead to a more natural form of nationalism along genetic/ethnic lines, so there wouldn’t be any pastors, Armenians, Georgians and abundant Jewry as is the case in present – in addition, they would avoid the conundrum of hating on Bolsheviks who gave them borders and statehood.
    After all, they could have taken the route of Koreas, Vietnams, Chinas, Germanies.

  211. Balkan admixture is veeery suspect.
    IIRC, I2 in the west Balkans is younger subclade than Carpathian I2, and the founder effect is noticeable.

    The Slavic ethnogenesis and the discussion on I2 proliferation direction has been discussed previously on AK’s threads, but nothing conclusive can be written – White Croats of Carpathians ——> Adriatic Croats story apparently has some backing proof.

  212. From the article:

    The third most frequent haplogroup in Russians is I1b, and its variation is also clinal (Figure 4B). The map on Figure 4B demonstrates that distribution of I1b inside the historic Russian area follows the “out-of-Balkans” decreasing trend:7 In southwestern Russians, its frequency is approximately 15%

    The remaining two haplogroups, J2 and E3b, exhibit spotty frequencies in Russians, expected for low-frequency haplogroups (Figures 4C and 4D; Table 2). The haplogroups might have arrived to Russia alongside I1b from the Balkans, in which the two are frequent.

  213. The explanation might be simpler and more recent – from 17th century onward Russian Empire imported Balkan Orthodox peoples –
    locally most famous were Novoserbia and Slavoserbia territories in modern day Ukraine, but it wasn’t limited to that – entire regiments were formed at times from immigrants – Serbs, Cincars, Vlachs, Wallachians. These people assimilated very quickly and could have introduced these foreign haplogroups in the areas they were settled – the areas colonised by Russians and previously held by Tatars and hordes probably saw very large fertility rates.

    In my previous post I was (wrongly) looking at I2 haplogroup which is intriguing because it peaks in west Balkans and to a less degree (west) Ukraine, and the subclades in Ukraine are older.

  214. Mitleser says

    This time a new trick was introduced: massive migration flows to destroy the power of labor. You can trace it to US ‘supply side’ ideology – the idea was that if there is close to unlimited supply of labor on all levels, the elites can take complete control of the society. Working people with limited power to negotiate are powerless, in some ways they approach almost feudal or slavery status – except they are free to move. That last part has destroyed the national nature of many societies.

    Oh vey, that sounds familiar.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20190515215817im_/https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6gSOQcU8AAo4gE.jpg
    https://twitter.com/PyotrNemets/status/1128172290246463494

  215. Thorfinnsson says

    Yes.

    People if anything appear to be more, not less, influenced by propaganda now owing to its pervasiveness.

    If FDR were President today the idea that he’s crippled would be dismissed as a conspiracy theory promoted by Russian trolls.

  216. I meant Ivan III of Moscow

    To say that the history of Russia begins with Ivan III, this is the same as to say that the history of Germany begins with Bismarck

  217. Guilt.

  218. Mitleser says

    Motivations are hard to know. Why Merkel did it will be only of academic interest.

    The Leftist were (and are) in favour of it.
    At that time, the three leftist parties (SPD, Greens, Left) had a majority in the federal parliament and she needed the votes of the SPD for her parliamentarian majority.
    Even more importantly, it was popular among the leftist journalists who are a large majority among the partisan journalists.

  219. As for Austria, check the numbers on Muslim students as a percentage of Vienna schools and tell me that Muslims (especially Turks, in that case) will not be a majority within 20-25 years.

    I was just in Vienna, It was no more Muslim than Moscow – that is, there were some, but not many, it was basically a European city. Stats on schools don’t include private schools, that are all Catholic.

    It’s just a ridiculous comment about Vienna.

  220. The explanation might be simpler and more recent – from 17th century onward Russian Empire imported Balkan Orthodox peoples

    This is probably wrong. Balkan settlement was mostly in so-called “New Russian” lands, but the Balkan genetic traces don’t follow that border:

    https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

    In my previous post I was (wrongly) looking at I2 haplogroup which is intriguing because it peaks in west Balkans and to a less degree (west) Ukraine, and the subclades in Ukraine are older.

    This suggests western Ukrainian origins of Croats.

  221. Thorfinnsson says

    Russian backwardness explained

  222. Polish Perspective says

    I am late to this thread, but better late than never.

    AP is correct by his observation that Polish youth is both becoming more in tune with globohomo on faggotry and secularism while at the same time being more right-wing on refugees/immigration. Call it the Czechification of Polish youth.

    I still agree with Adam that the long-term prospects of Poland will be challenging given the immense pressure being applied. I am not talking about the passive-aggressive back-and-forth with Brussels. AK had a great post a few years ago wherein he compared Estonians by the kind of media they tuned into. He found that the differences between Russian speakers and Estonian speakers were nil in the older age groups but then diverged very sharply as you went down the age group. Russian speakers, because they continued tuning into Russian media, retained a much greater social conservatism on issues such as gay marriage. Estonians got soaked in GloboHomo. The lesson is that the media and culture ultimately matters a lot more than the nominal political party in charge. After all, Russians were ruled by the same parties.

    A perfect US analogy would be the long GOP domination from 1980 until 1992. There was a lot of talk about the resurgence of the evanglical right etc, but in the end they didn’t control the key nodes of the cultural institutions and that made all the difference. PiS only really controls a single TV station.

    Polish internet is quite free and largely without censorship. Our version of reddit (Wykop) regularly has race realist content, outright white nationalist stuff at times. However, Father Coughlin was a proto-fascist who named the Jew in the 1930s and with a few decrees he got shut down after FDR was convinced by (((advisers))) to do so. 30 million listeners were homeless overnight. The “free market” is a myth.

    I’m seeing eerie similarities with the 1930s today, though not as that sentence is usually understood. I’m talking about how radio, which started out as a low-cost populist method to communicate with large swaths of people turned into a tightly controlled medium for the entrenched classes the moment it threatened the real power structures and no longer concerned itself with horse race political talk. This is what is happening to the internet as I write this. Poland, which is wedded to Western institutions, is not immune to this. Russia is.

    Bragging that Poland is whiter than Russia is meaningless. Russia has genuine sovereignty. Putin might be an (occasional) cuck but at least Russians have their own destiny in their hands. Poland is a buffer state, like the rest of intermarium, and a lot of commentary here seem to miss that central fact. The fate of buffer states get decided in more powerful capitals. Such are the historical facts. An intermarium alliance could change that but in my view, such a constellation remains a pipedream (I’ve outlined why in other comments).

    Ultimately, I am quite secure in my belief that Poland will eke it out for longer than most, if not all, other countries. But as others hinted: being the last guy on a sinking ship is hardly an achievement. I do not believe in “Eastern Exceptionalism” except for Russia, really. The rest of us have a choice to make. Either we team up with the Westerners in Europe and upend the existing order, failing that we form our own intermarium (I’m a skeptic) or we move into Russia’s sphere of influence in some sort of pan-Slavic transmogrification. Either way, I am not a big believer in fatalism and I dismiss historical theories of ‘inevitability’. What will happen is very much in our collective hands.

    P.S. I’m glad you liked the book, AK. If you’re interested in India then I’d recommend Vijay Joshi’s 2016 book on the Indian economy. It serves a similar purpose: being an encompassing yet highly readable introduction to an intelligent audience without skipping on depth of detail. The book is quite academic at times but Joshi is a skilled narrator. Alternatively, TN Ninan’s book would also be a good start though it has a wider canvas and deals with politics and foreign policy. Ninan also enjoys using a lot of personal anecdotes to anchor his book whereas Joshi is the classic Oxbridge professor in being about pure theory as much as possible.

  223. Mr. Hack says

    And Ukrainian history with Shevchenko?

  224. This is probably wrong. Balkan settlement was mostly in so-called “New Russian” lands, but the Balkan genetic traces don’t follow that border:

    I can’t see the map, but I’ve always wondered how reliable these genetic studies are regarding exact positioning of genes because the sample numbers are very small for such large areas and populations, and Ukraine+south Russia saw significant internal migrations during Imperial and Soviet times.

    The earlier Balkan recruitment predates Novorossiya – Peter the Great’s reign is when it started. But you are probably right that it can’t explain (all of) the Balkan admixture.

  225. Mitleser says

    A perfect US analogy would be the long GOP domination from 1980 until 1992. There was a lot of talk about the resurgence of the evanglical right etc, but in the end they didn’t control the key nodes of the cultural institutions and that made all the difference. PiS only really controls a single TV station.

    Reminds me of what (or not) happened in (West-)Germany at that time.
    The FRG was run by Kohl and his center-right CDU, there was talk about spiritual and moral turn after a decade of SocDem-Liberal rule, there was talk about halving the Turkish population in Germany.
    Neither happened, and in the end Kohl’s son Peter married a Turk.

  226. Hyperborean says

    As for percentages, no way is the EU only 4-5% Muslim now. More to the point, some countries are nearing ten percent and growing fast, as well as caving to Islam and increasingly aggressive Muslims demanding that their lifestyle, mores and rules replace white European law and culture (including sharia law): Sweden, followed by France and England and the Benelux countries.

    It is a two-way street. Middle Easterners in Europe are also influenced by the prevailing decadent popular culture – this doesn’t imply convergence to European norms, but perhaps something similar to the behaviour of American ghetto blacks or white trash.

    Many of them are into drugs, rap, promiscuity*, etc.

    Yes, in all Sunni demographics there will always be at least a small core of Salafists who are willing to commit terrorist actions, but on the whole I believe modernity will emerge victorious and Western Europe’s future, presuming that the present course countinues, will resemble more America or Brazil than it will Saudi Arabia.

    *There’s a quasi-French term《Beurettes à khel》for Maghrebin women who date African males, suggesting that the phenomenon has already started to reach a certain level of prominence and notoriety.

  227. Maghrebin women who date African males,

    The making of Uruk-Hai

  228. Hyperborean says

    Middle Easterners in Europe are also influenced by the prevailing decadent popular culture – this doesn’t imply convergence to European norms, but perhaps something similar to the behaviour of American ghetto blacks or white trash.

    In particular, these girls are accused of wearing the veil only to better hide their “behaviours of
    little virtue”, which deviate from tradition (naked photos, cigarettes and bottles of alcohol in hand, outings to shisha bars, etc.) and to justify their love with black boys by the excuse “he is Muslim, so it’s good” (understood: “you can’t fault it, because only Allah can judge us”)

    […]

    Yes. I also often hear that it’s because of celebrities like Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt that teenage girls want mixed-race children. Apparently, it’s a new fashion. Having a baby with origins that is less “wheaty.” I also hear that the “beurettes à khel” are fans of Kim Kardashian who is dating Kanye West, and that the renois [blacks] are popular thanks to US rap. One time, a young girl also explained to me that they had “more style”.

    https://www.vice.com/amp/fr/article/yv8nnx/la-chasse-aux-beurettes-a-renoi-est-ouverte-sur-facebook

  229. Mitleser says

    Behold, the anti-Iranian geriatric troll army in Albania.

    https://twitter.com/yarbatman/status/1149023746692440064

  230. Not Raul says

    If anyone is afraid that the Crips will get them in Russia, they can move to the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic like Weev.

  231. But the leftists are not in power in Germany, Merkel and her Christian Democrats are. I understand the coalition politics, still on matters of importance it is unthinkable that CDU would defer to the left. Merkel&Co. own this.

    The journalists’ liberalism (often fanatical) is a bigger problem. The verbal warriors have been out of control all over the world. How did we end up turning over the civilization to the talkers?

  232. I was just in Vienna, It was no more Muslim than Moscow – that is, there were some, but not many, it was basically a European city.

    … It’s just a ridiculous comment about Vienna.

    Really? Here’s my comment from another thread:

    Vienna has plenty of diversity just not so much in the tourist areas. In 2018 I stayed for two nights in the area south of Wien Hbf by Keplerplatz. It looked to be about 50% non-white, virtually all Turkish-looking in appearances with plenty of headscarves. There were still plenty of bars and restaurants, food stalls, etc, selling pork products, and at least one strip club, so the Muslims don’t seem to be laying down the law, so to speak. But things change fast.

    That 50% non-white was based on all people so amongst children it would be higher. I went into one pub and one McDonald’s – it was late Sunday, nothing else was open! – ALL staff were Turkish-looking in both places.

    I went to a few other areas – based on Brigitte Hamann’s Hitler book – and found that although it was a mostly European city, some areas were very diverse.

    I’ve been to Vienna four times this decade and my general impression is that although it is whiter than your typical “western” capital European city like London, Brussels, or Paris it is heading for majority-minority in a hurry. Of the places I observed only The Ring area – where tourists hang out – and the neighbourhoods to its north (where I stayed in 2012), were predominantly European.

    I don’t believe any stats on this subject put out by any European Union government.

  233. I admittedly spent only 5 days in the city before heading to the Alps. I rented an apartment in the inner district and spent that time walking around, at all hours, throughout the central city, between going to museums. I saw a lot of Arabs selling fruits and foods in the Naschmarket (analogous to Azeris selling stuff in Moscow markets). I saw exactly two refugees. One was begging by St. Stephen’s, another was softly saying the word “bitte” by a sausage stand on Miriahilferstrasse (not as heavily touristed like Graben or Kartner, and basically all-white).

    I believe that there are minority neighborhoods outside the center of Vienna; they also exist in Moscow. My brother-in-law moved out of a Moscow neighborhood that was becoming too brown (his kid picking up an Azeri accent at the grade school was the last straw). But the overall impression is that Vienna is comparable to Moscow in terms of European-ness. Darker than Kiev or Warsaw but in no danger of flipping soon, certainly not in 20 years.

    I did notice Turkish-looking people by the main train station.

    I don’t believe any stats on this subject put out by any European Union government.

    For what it’s worth, in 2011 Vienna was officially 11.6% Muslim. Moscow officially is only 3.6% Muslim but actually it probably approaches Vienna’s official figure, I’d guess around 10%.

    The largest group of foreigners in Vienna was Serbs, then Germans, then Turks. I did notice Serbs and Croats working in shops or as waitresses.

  234. Your summation of the article looks correct. Thanks for providing me with this link. The research is detailed and provides a lot to digest.

  235. “How did we end up turning over the civilization to the talkers?” – Ask the Jews.

  236. LondonBob says

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-19/saxobank-cio-warns-central-banks-can-do-nothing

    TF: Earlier this year, you said that the social contract – the agreement between rulers and the ruled – is broken. It made me think of this year’s Davos meeting, which showed a leadership class terrified of slowing jobs growth and enamoured with the idea that population movements might be used to address this. Given the current unpopularity of globalisation and its effects, would you say that there are some things it is impossible for 21st century leaders and the led to agree upon? Is a social contract impossible?

    https://www.tradingfloor.com/posts/what-do-they-believe-in-davos-6971367

  237. reiner Tor says

    Our Duke of Qin wrote that the South China Morning Post was 75% Western propaganda (as opposed to 100% in western outlets), but I wonder if this article is true:

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3018159/chinese-censorship-stifling-countrys-film-industry

  238. anonymous coward says

    And Bantoids tend to be a sociable and gregarious lot, who like to peacock.

    Bantoids from Africa?? No way.

    That’s a retarded New World thing.

  239. Mitleser says

    Hardly unthinkable.
    The Merkel-era CDU has turned into a centrist party with barely any right-wingers*.
    And centrists tend to defer to the more powerful vocal minority.

    *WerteUnion, a conservative group in the current CDU has 2k members, less than 0,5% of the 400k+ CDU members.

  240. I don’t know how many blacks there are here, certainly not that many. My point was less that there are more than it may seem and more that it doesn’t really matter much, tens of thousands, even, here or there, because society is structured in such a way that they are not allowed to create the kinds of problems normally associated with them. (Note, our resident WN neutral immediately picked up on this.) Personally, I adore Russians’ casual and pervasive racism, hopefully it will crystalize more into part of its anti-Western ideological stance in the same way as attitudes towards homosexuality have.

    On a side note, regarding blacks in Russia, I’ve been told that there was a mini mulatto baby boom in Moscow as a result of the 1980s Olympic games. Apparently, some of the locals girls were rather enticed by the exotic black skinned athletes in town. They’re interesting characters, this cohort, completely Russified. One of them hosted a late-night talk show about sex (Про Это) on NTV in the 00s.

    And Bantoids tend to be a sociable and gregarious lot, who like to peacock.

    Yeah, but I imagine those who aren’t able to tamp down these tendencies don’t last very long. Put another way, picture yourself as an African migrant in Moscow. How would you behave?

  241. Estonians got soaked in GloboHomo. The lesson is that the media and culture ultimately matters a lot more than the nominal political party in charge.

    Culture matters, but currently the culture there is not very pro-immigrant. That Estonia has always been quite secular doesn’t negate these anti-immigrant tendencies.

    In the meanwhile, on the ground in Estonia, the nationalist party took their 7 seats in the parliament to 19 (out of 101 seats). 17.8% of the vote, which is not insignificant at all, part of coalition. Maybe this isn’t enough but it’s better than in many other places.

    “I’ll say whatever the damn I want.” (c) Martin Helme, Estonian nationalist leader

  242. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    For all the people confused by the “Balkan Genetics” in Ukraine, it has to do with the Great Serb Migrations where Serbs fled Turkish occupation in large waves from 1680-1750. Of course, they were fleeing Ottoman occupation before and after. Still, the 2 largest migrations were from 1680-1750. It’s only logical that a significant amount of Serbs fled to Russia besides Austria at the start of the 18th century. It explains the especially strong “Balkan genetics” in East Ukraine.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs

  243. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    My bad for not posting more basic historical evidence.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavo-Serbia

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Serbia_(historical_province)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Hussar_Regiment

    It’s pretty clear that a significant amount of Russian in East Ukraine are really descendants of Serbs.

  244. AmRusDebate says

    Thanks for the open-thread Tolya. Do cars assembled in Russia, have a single component manufactured there? What % of components are imported, what % domestic manufacture?

    Lada is a Russified Dacia, imports components from Romania…run by Yves Caracatzanis I am not aware of Tolyati producing many components presently.

    Can you even get such data in Russia?

    According to industry news, Lada has a 20% share, Koreans most aggressive?
    https://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2019/07/russia-june-2019-ford-42-8-haval-geely-defy-4th-market-drop-in-past-5-months-3-3/

  245. AmRusDebate says

    I’d like someone to explain, why the comment section on Paul Craig Roberts’ posts is closed.

    A history to this? Unz policy?

  246. reiner Tor says

    PCR himself demanded as a precondition of letting his articles posted here at Unz. His early posts had comments, but many were critical of him, and he didn’t like it.

  247. I’ve been told that there was a mini mulatto baby boom in Moscow as a result of the 1980s Olympic games. Apparently, some of the locals girls were rather enticed by the exotic black skinned athletes in town.

    In the early 90s it was exotic and fashionable for young Russians, usually males, in the USA to “try” blacks (the scene in one of the Brat movies was not atypical). They always managed to find thin ones rather than ghetto ones, sometimes kids of African diplomats or whatever. The fashion passed after a year or two.

  248. The problem is that Balkan admixture doesn’t follow the migration pattern but rather geographic proximity to the Balkans. There may be specific pockets of greater Balkan descent in eastern Ukraine attributed to the settlers, but the trend just shows gradually decreasing descent further from the Balkans and shows Balkan admixture in areas where Serbs did not settle.

  249. Thorfinnsson says

    Disastrous demographics mean smaller workforces in the future absent immigration.

    It’s a real problem.

    If it’s true that Merkel’s blunder was motivated by a desire to increase the size of Germany’s workforce and not just fear of the press, then you’re correct that it’s even more important for us to continue debunking blank slatism.

    Beyond simply debunking blank slatism, mindless anti-racism has to be attacked. Blank slateists who are none the less cultural conservatives also knew this invasion was going to be a disaster. After all, the blank slateist position is that “culture” is an incredibly magical and powerful force that has decisive, lifelong effects beginning in early childhood. “Syrians” suffer from a lack of universal preschool and thus are doomed to never be productive workers.

    Alternative solutions to the shrinking workforce problem are also needed. We already have the lowest cost of capital, the highest level of technology, and the highest labor costs in history. So mindlessly saying “automation” is not a solution.

    The globalists have already fixed on mobilizing women into the workforce, which is unfortunately harvesting the seed corn. We ought to propose more flex-time and part-time arrangements for women so that they can balance work with family life. It ought to be routine in industrial economies for there to be 20-30 workweeks available for mothers. I’m sure there are a number of women who would like to keep working in some way but do not want to sacrifice family life to do so.

    Reducing “retirement” is another obvious solution. Japan is doing great work in keeping the elderly in the workforce. Western countries are not as good at this, and in some age discrimination is rampant (it’s particularly bad in Sweden for instance). And much like with mothers, a lot of elderly workers would like to remain in the workforce but are no longer interested in their golden years in pulling long workweeks. Legislation and cultural propaganda should mobilize to address this.

    The flip side of old people working is getting young people working sooner. Unfortunately, this gets closer to the heart of the system’s worldview. In order to get young people and even children working, it’s necessary to demolish the myth of “education”. And that means a serious assault on the blank slate. At least in the United States there are now people within the mainstream questioning college for everyone, but making progress on this front will be really difficult. There are a lot of people who should start working full time by age 14, and there’s no way that will be accepted today. Even ordinary people are brainwashed into believing that everyone must complete high school.

    Shrinking the public sector and parasitic parts of the private sector (if done in a gradual way that doesn’t damage aggregate demand) would increase the size of the productive labor force. This would be another very difficult political project, as while it doesn’t challenge the blank state it challenges powerful political constituencies like the military-industrial complex, unionized public sector workers, teachers, firefighters, income tax preparers, etc.

    I also think we could get a lot more useful work out of people if they were actually healthy. Especially if they were healthy in middle and old age. We’d spend less on healthcare as well. This one is again extremely difficult as it requires going against lots of entrenched lobbies, getting fags to admit to being WRONG, and also forcing people to change their habits.

    The real solution is of course restoring healthy demographics, but even if they are prepared to listen to us (which they’re not) it will take time to fix demographics. In the mean time economic problems will need to be addressed by using other techniques to expand the productive workforce.

  250. Thorfinnsson says
  251. There don’t appear to have been that many settlers, not enough to account for the Balkan descent cross wide geographical area:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavo-Serbia

    The province had ethnically diverse population that included Serbs, Vlachs (Romanians), and others. In 1755, the population of Slavo-Serbia numbered 1,513 inhabitants (of both genders). In 1756, in the regiment of Jovan Šević, there were 38% Serbs, 23% Vlachs, and 22% others.[2] In 1763, the population of Slavo-Serbia numbered 3,992 male inhabitants, of whom only 378 were Serbs.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Serbia_(historical_province)

    Because of the large number of Moldavian settlers, the largest ethnic group in the province in 1757 were not Serbs, but Moldavians.[1] In 1757, the population of New Serbia numbered 5,482 inhabitants, including

    It’s pretty clear that a significant amount of Russian in East Ukraine are really descendants of Serbs.

    Not really (see above). And if those Serbs were rural, they were probably absorbed by the Ukrainian population as had occurred with earlier Polish settlers. Russians tended to settle in cities and came during industrialization, to work in factories.

    It would be funny if the Serb volunteers in Donbas were killing descendants of rural Serbs who had mixed with the Ukrainian neighbors though. A lot of Ukrainian militia there consists of rural Ukrainians from those eastern Ukrainian lands.

  252. Thorfinnsson says

    Someone impersonated PCR by posting comments under his name threatening to shoot people with his .45 caliber handgun.

    Since PCR is elderly he doesn’t understand that this is very funny and is actually the purpose of the internet, so he asked Ron Unz to close his comments.

    I would call PCR a contemptible coward for this, but given his content I’ll give him a pass.

  253. I’m in Russia now (since yesterday), and did not see any flood of Africans. Lol, nothing changed since new year, or I’m not in the relevant cities.

  254. African students in Russia have (or had) a reputation of being badly behaved. They are not like African elites who study in Western universities. All the elite Africans go to study in the West. In USSR and nowadays Russia/Ukraine, it is likely to be only some ordinary poor/random African students.

  255. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Well I only stated Serbs because they’re the most significant Balkan group. Still, the 18th century migrations would explain the pockets of Balkan DNA in current East Ukraine.

    Since you don’t believe that 17th and 18th century migrations from the Balkans could explain the significant percentage of Balkan DNA across current Ukraine, let me give an alternative possibility.

    The whole theory of Slav migrations into the Balkans in the 7th century is complete garbage and Slavs are native to the Balkans. Basically Slavs = Illyrian. It’s more plausible that there was emigration from the Balkans instead of immigration to it. It’s much more logical for there to be Slav emigration from the Balkans to the North and East in the ancient times. After all, Moscow was only a swamp and grew into something more from a fishing village in the 13th century. Who seriously even believes that Albanians (more properly called Shiptars) are Illyrians native to the Balkans lol?

    MEANT FOR AP

  256. Liberalism until the early 20th century, refers to something like ideology of people like Thomas Jefferson, and this ideology was generally supported by 19th century bourgeoisie.

    What happens in the 20th century, is the meaning of the word is changed to refer to “social democrat”.

    So then this is why word “neo-liberalism” is invented (in 1970s or 1980s), actually by leftwing people. It refers to an ideology which was hated by leftwing people, which is a return of 19th century concept of liberalism.

    Neo-liberal leaders are Thatcher, Pinochet, Fujimori, and today people like Orban.

    It’s more an economic ideology. However, generally, it’s quite good in relation to immigration. For example, Thatcher has been more selective with immigration compared to the other British leaders.

  257. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    What’s so implausible about it?

    It’s not like the population of the Ukraine in the 18th century was very high anyway. Plus, with high birthrates which existed in those times, that small number of people could grow into tens and even hundreds of thousands of people overtime. After all, the Ukraine was literally nothing more than a borderland between Russia, Poland, Austria and Turkey for centuries. Borderland regions subject to constant raiding, war and frequent changes in military occupations always have low population densities anyway.

    I did miswrite by over exaggerating the Serb element. Still, the point stands.

    So what if Serbs may be killing each other in East Ukraine? Many Shiptars (“Albanians”) and Croats are assimilated Serbs while the overwhelming majority of “Bosnian” and Serb Muslims are Serb converts to Islam during Ottoman occupation. They’ve been killing each other for centuries now anyway.

    Of course, the fact that you find it funny Serbs are potentially killing each other in East Ukraine is nothing more than proof that you are a Svidomist Monkeykrainian.

  258. Russian, is genetically closest to Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians and to some extent Finns. And then in other areas of the country, to nationalities like Poles and Ukrainians.

    For example, Northern Russia – Balts almost the same all the way to Samara

    https://i.imgur.com/MGTn3Yn.png

    But on the other side, Poles are mapping all the way to Saratov

    https://i.imgur.com/5eIO80u.png

    Balkan people genetically, are a different race, if we believe these maps. Balkan people are related to nationalities like Romanians and Italians.

    For example, genetic map of the Romanians.

    https://i.imgur.com/kyClqEK.png

    • If you talk about cultural connection. Balkans’ peoples have cultural mix, which seems to me like an intermediate point between Austria and Greece plus effects of communism.

    They’re drinking coffee and cooking with olive oil. The parts which were in Austro-Hungarian Empire, seem like the most modernized (if by which, we mean close to Viennese time).

    Cities like Belgrade and Zagreb look like they have beautiful opera houses and 19th century architecture.

  259. Why are you such a subhuman?

    Why can’t you refrain from Serbian kneejerk uranationalist crap in this out of all places?

    Seriously, sometimes I think there should be a state effort in Serbia to police the behaviour and writings of Serbs online.
    Instead of looking through what other commenters (myself included) have posted on the subject in this thread, you burst in, repeated approximate talking points, and then when confronted with opposing opinion started throwing insults and bringing up completely unrelated Shqippos, Croats and Bosniaks into the discussion.

  260. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    What are you, Croat scum?

  261. Q.E.D.
    Well done.
    You’ve confirmed everything what I have just written.
    Your instinctive reaction to opposition is to assume someone is a Croat/some other Serb enemy – and you throw that accusation before even looking through commenting history.

  262. Thorfinnsson says

    I was simply taking an opportunity to insult Balkanoid swine yet again.

    But your post strongly supports my proposal that the Balkans be turned over to Austrian administration in perpetuity.

  263. You really hate the Austrians and wish them absolute ill, don’t you?

    You Swedes can really hold a grudge for long.

  264. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    You literally ask me why as a Serb i’m being so “subhuman” and you expect a nice response from me or for me to not assume you’re a Croat or something else?

    My reply was a fair response to you calling Serbs subhuman just like my calling AP a, “Svidomist Monkeykranian” is a fair response to his insulting comment that he thinks Serbs killing each other is funny. You have naive expectations if you expect me and other Serbs to be polite to hypocrites, cowards and effeminate cucks.

    Plus, what are you? So superior to Serbs? “Kneejerk ultranationalist crap” is what you call responses trying to give a different perspective on things? Plus, what’s wrong with Serb ultranationalism anyway?

  265. Thorfinnsson says

    Good point.

    Just look at this ridiculous exchange between you and TheTotallyAnonymous.

    You’re actually a fellow Serb yet he’s all wound up prepared to destroyed the evil Croat menace.

    Not that Croats and Serbs actually differ in any way at all to justify their mutual animosity. Imagine if Swedes and Norwegians went at it like this.

    I can only imagine how Hapsburg civil servants and military officers shook their heads in dealing with you ridiculous hotheads.

  266. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Lol!

    How’s the multiculturalism and diversity in Malmo, Stockholm, Sweden and the West in general going huh?

    You can have fun thinking you’re superior to “Balkan swine” while Mustafa, Abdul and Tyrone have their way with your women.

  267. Thorfinnsson says

    It’s “Balkanoid swine”

  268. I can only imagine how Hapsburg civil servants and military officers shook their heads in dealing with you ridiculous hotheads.

    It was a peculiar and interesting part of history – there were more Serbs under Habsburgs than in Serbia, and more Serbs than Slovenians or Croats under Habsburg rule.
    In addition, they weren’t serfs but of Grenzer descent – over time, nobility was granted to distinguished individuals as well. In addition, a Serb urban caste had developed in all continental towns – first cinema and local bank in Zagreb were opened by Serbs.

    Habsburg military officers would have been Serbs in that area – for example, all 3 Habsburg generals leading the 1878 invasion of Bosnia&Herzegovina were Serbs, in addition to only Slav Field Marshal in WW1.

    Habsburgs and Vienna officials played the subjects against each other – Serbs were inclined towards Emperor due to special status since 16th century, especially post-1848 so every anti-Habsburg was perceived as a Hungarian agent / Mađaron – including the Croat Kvaternik rebellion who went among Serbs in Rakovica area to start a “Croat nationalist uprising”, gathered some local idiot Serbs, were crushed by Serb Grenzer regiments and his uprising lieutenants escaped to Serbia, LOL.

    The anti-Serb resentment was fostered by some circles as early as 1903, when a converted Jew Joshua Frank started riling up Croats against Serbs, continuing in the Starčević’s wake (Croat nationalism father, his mother was a Serb, he tried applying for teacher position at Serb gymnasium in Zagreb AND at Belgrade Liceum, but was turned down, and then his anti-Serb sentiment suddenly appeared). This was exerceberated by Benjamin Kallay’s perceived favours to Serbs (his mother was born in a magyarized Serb noble family, LOL) giving them important positions and ministries.

    It is all so tiresome it bothers me a lot, because there was a golden opportunity to be done with all of them once and for all in 1919, but it was foolishly thrown away in favour of “brotherhood” and “Yugoslavism” – common state with those who’ve killed Serbs and persecuted them en masse in both world wars.

  269. reiner Tor says

    Neo-liberal leaders are Thatcher, Pinochet, Fujimori, and today people like Orban.

    Orbán? Where did you get this. He is big on nationalizing things. He bought back the 25% government share in the national oil company. He has opposed any further privatizations since the late 1990s. He often plans to create national champions… owned by the government. He wanted to increase competition in the cell phone provider sector by… creating a wholly government-owned cell phone provider company. Whenever he supports the creation or growth of some wholly privately owned enterprise, it’s owned by one of his cronies. That’s the diametric opposite of Thatcher.

  270. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Lol whatever, the point still stands.

  271. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    It’s good to see that you are not as cucked as I thought you were at first.

  272. Thorfinnsson says

    As someone who’s commenting on this site, obviously I don’t approve of “diversity”.

    As for the Balkans my true view is that you’re a rougher part of the European family. Embarrassing at times, but still part of the family. And roughness has its virtues at times.

    The ridiculous fights between various completely indistinguishable Balkan entities are comical and absurd. They’re completely obsolete given the ongoing invasion and domination of the West, including Balkan states, by globohomo. There’s less “diversity” in the Balkans only owing to relative poverty.

  273. reiner Tor says

    He wanted to increase competition in the cell phone provider sector by… creating a wholly government-owned cell phone provider company.

    This actually fell through.

  274. Vishnugupta says

    That is another side effect of the EU project for Eastern Europe. The lack of strategic industrial companies in national hands aligned with national interests. Let’s face it every major industrial company usually does critical research and design work in their home country(often incentivized if not outright subsidized by the government) and mostly assembly while producing abroad.

    Hungary for instance during WW 1 had impressive companies like Ganz that built locomotives,ships and even u boats.

    Today most Eastern European industry seems to be subsidiaries of West European companies. I don’t see this changing in the foreseeable future.

  275. reiner Tor says

    every major industrial company usually does critical research and design work in their home country

    German and other companies often leverage lower Hungarian engineer wages by outsourcing design work here as well. It’s very likely that the Volkswagen chip which was used to cheat on the diesel emissions tests was designed in Hungary. Bosch has a huge R&D facility in Budapest.

    https://hipa.hu/bosch-expands-its-second-largest-european-development-centre

    But it’s not truly independent R&D, and its profits accrue to foreigners.

  276. Well, 1919 was 100 years ago, and whatever mistakes were made then are irreversible. It is quite possible that if Yugoslavia was not created in 1919 and instead smaller states were formed (as in 1990’s), those nations would be worse off, smaller, and in some cases maybe no longer identifiable. But probably not the Serbs.

    My humble view is that the Balkans should try to de-Balkanize; keep the food and the good looking women, but stop alternating between mutual outbursts of hatred and the perennial Western worship. West loves the mayhem – here Thorfinnsson is wrong, they only feign the disgust with the local in-fighting – Habsburgs couldn’t keep their grubby hands of Balkans, they practically didn’t do much else then try to expand to Balkan.

    Demographically, Europe cannot be saved without its hinterlands and people living there. It is all about numbers: Vienna’s white character is largely due to the Balkan migrants. Human instinct is to live in complementary societies that are genetically and culturally close enough, if Europe abandons this instinct, it will simply go extinct.

  277. You’re trying to make me dislike Orban?

    Look at the beautiful low corporation tax in Hungary though:
    https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/tax-rates-online/corporate-tax-rates-table.html

    He often plans to create national champions… owned by the government.

    Ok, this sounds funny, especially for such a small country – what are Hungarian natural monopolies where this would be a good idea?

    In Russia, there were some things which were actually intelligently privatized in the 1990s, which still results in benefits today – for example, very competitive telecommunication sector today.

  278. It’s sad what happened to trams of Budapest.

    The Ganz trams looks really stylish.

    https://i.imgur.com/Dlbbqe4.jpg

    It seems, they replace them with these ugly and boring Siemen’s tram designs, which are built in Spain. They just add some yellow paint (not even the correct tone it seems) to remember the attractive original trams.

    https://i.imgur.com/puKM1Ew.jpg

  279. anonymous says

    Washington Post have bright new idea how to defeat China: do what Saint Ronald did and double down at promoting freedumb, demoncrazy, transgenderism and other finest Western values.
    This will bring the Chinese to their knees.

    https://twitter.com/smallwars/status/1149341312073814016

  280. Vishnugupta says

    It’s happening all over eastern Europe even Russia I am sorry to say.

    Why should Russians import/screw driver assemble Siemens trains instead of designing their own modern rolling stock ?Even the Spanish have two successful rolling stock companies Talgo and CAF.

    Russia has the money and the demand for rolling stock it could and should make its own railway rolling stock national champion like France’s Alstom or Germany’s Siemens who would design and develop their own models with some technical hand holding by European/Japanese/Korean companies where needed. Instead it seems to be content exporting oil and gas and importing/license producing Siemens train sets.

    It also seems content importing/assembling Siemens gas turbines for power plants instead of developing a new generation gas turbine in tandem with new generation Aero engine PD 14 (the core skills and material science r&d required are similar)

  281. A role model?

    https://www.rt.com/usa/463925-rapinoe-woke-soccer-trump/


    After all of the hoopla against him:

    https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1081926/doping

    Note the bias of the article which still matter of fact accuses Mutko of something that’s factually unproven.


    A lame discussion on Russo-Georgian Relations:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2019/07/georgia-russia-resolve-differences-190710175719224.html

    Limited diversity from a show that has featured Dmitry Babich and Mark Sleboda.

  282. BengaliCanadianDude says

    1)FAREED ZAKARIA….GO BACK TO THE TOILET BOWL INDIA….GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY COUNTRY!!!!

    It’s not your country lol and you have no say in the matter

  283. Rattus Norwegius says

    Gib back Jemtland and Bohuslen!

  284. Thorfinnsson says

    Why isn’t it his country?

  285. If a local manufacturer would build same product as the foreign manufacturer, there is usually no advantage for building it locally (unless you envisage a large export market, or the total cost including setting up manufacturing is still competitive).

    But in the Hungarian example, local factory was building very unique and stylish trams, that were something unique for Budapest (I guess, I have not been there yet). And now, they import instead boring looking trams based on Siemens designs.

    If it was a non-beautiful, non-tourist city – it could be acceptable. But for a city like Budapest, which lives from its aesthetics, this seems beyond stupid that they don’t continue building the classically beautiful local trams.

    Russia has the money and the demand for rolling stock

    For trams in Russia, we had imported mainly from Czech Republic (Tatra)

    Tatra T3SU is somewhat beautiful

    But newer Tatra T6 less so

    However, now Uraltransmash is building a lot of trams domestically. These were first purchased to prepare before the World Cup.

    These new trams not very beautiful though and had some reliability problems

    We can compare with the Hungarian Ganz trams though – these are just beautiful. And what kind of idiots would replace these beautiful trams, with the boring Siemens trams.

  286. Mr. Hack says

    I don’t know Dmitry, and I do appreciate the original designs…but I do like the the new model’s curvi-linear design with the low curved glass front. More sleek looking, reminiscent of the bullet trains in Japan. As for choice of color? Orange or yellow??….both kind of bright, and yellow even showcased in the old model in your last example?…..

    на вкус и цвет товарища нет! 🙂

  287. LOL, AFAIK Epigon is a Serb.

    It figures that the one intelligent Serb commenting here is accused by a regular Serb of being a Croat.

  288. What’s so implausible about it?

    It’s not like the population of the Ukraine in the 18th century was very high anyway.

    Ukraine’s population was estimated at around 5.7 million in 1719.

    By the late 18th century the population had grown to around 10.5 million people.

    So ~10,000 Serb settlers were a drop in the bucket.

    Of course, the fact that you find it funny Serbs are potentially killing each other in East Ukraine

    It’s darkly funny, like a Coen brothers movie. I wasn’t celebrating it.

    Is nothing more than proof that you are a Svidomist Monkeykrainian

    Given your bloody history I think you shouldn’t complain about such things. Killing each other and others is just what you do.

  289. Slovakia’s new president wastes no time being a subversive shill. A few days after attacking China she is now turning her fire fire inwards.

    So much for based Slovakia.

  290. What about Berlin?

  291. Didn’t you previously post a study that said that northern Croats are genetically close to Slovenians and other Slavs while southern Croats are genetically close to Balkan pseudo-Slavs?

  292. Gerard1234 says

    African students in Russia have (or had) a reputation of being badly behaved. They are not like African elites who study in Western universities. All the elite Africans go to study in the West. In USSR and nowadays Russia/Ukraine, it is likely to be only some ordinary poor/random African students.

    Alot of Indian and Sri lankan students, mainly studying to become medical doctors, have very good reputations in Russia though – plenty of them willing to get their qualification outside of Moscow/Saint Petersburg

  293. I do like the the new model’s curvi-linear design

    Are you talking about this Siemens-style tram design Hungarians are buying?

    Maybe the first time you ever see it – it’s cool. But it’s the same design in almost every European city, and even non-European cities (like Jerusalem), and it looks boring quite fast.

    E.g. in Dublin

    More sleek looking, reminiscent of the bullet trains in Japan.

    Unlike bullet train, it’s not “form follows function”. There is no aerodynamic need for this shape, which the Siemens style tram use – tram ways travel at 15-20 kph.

    Remember how slow trams really are, that kids often climb or even hook on the back of the coupling of the trams and “ski” for a free ride.

  294. The problem with that strategy is that China is obsessed
    with the fall of the Soviet Union. Under Xi, these study sessions have increased. Deng Xiaoping, who is usually hailed as a liberal (mistakenly) in the West was scathing of Gorbachev in private and bluntly called him an idiot with fellow CCP elites.

    The second problem for the West is that China’s economic system is much more competitive. China only spends about 1.8% of GDP on defence. The Soviet Union spent 10-15% in the 1980s. China is highly competetive in fields like AI already and are fast catching up in hardware domains.

    There is a lot of focus on semiconductors today, but even in microprocessors, China is rapidly catching up. The recently released Zhaoxin KX-6000 matches the intel core i5-7400. Not cutting edge but hardly far behind. Just a few years ago, Zhaoxin were producing stuff that was comparable to what intel/AMD were producing in the mid-2000s. Now it is just a few years behind. Huawei is already at the technological frontier, which is why the US tried to cut it off from the ARM instruction set ecosystem.

    Aside from military hardware, the FSU was nowhere near this. So both economically and technologically, China is a different beast. And as I mentioned, the CCP is obsessed with the fall of FSU to prevent it.

    Most importantly, perhaps, is the fact that the Chinese people are content with their system, which polling has consistently shown. The US simply no longer has the allure it once had. We can’t ignore the cultural aspect as well. The US in 1980s was an overwhelmingly white society, so it was easier to influence FSU culturally. Now it is moving closer to a rich version of Brazil, with pockets of astounding prosperity but large cities of the country in utter disrepair and extremely high crime rates(Baltimore, Detroit, St.Louis, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Memphis, etc etc). Such a society will not be able to project cultural desirability to Chinese, who like and cherish stability. Even the most impressive parts of the US, the technological aspect, is no longer as unique and unreachable as it once was.

    I doubt China will ever have the cultural reach of the US, but WaPo and others are deluding themselves if .they think they can do a re-run of the 1980s. That world has long passed and the US is no longer as uniformly dominant, nor as impressive.

  295. Don’t read too much into it – she is a ceremonial president, she has no power to set policy.

    It is true that the strategic goal is to weaken V4. In Czechia they want the Zeman-Babis duo out, they are looking for ‘new fresh faces’ in Hungary and Poland. But they still have nothing to actually win elections when it matters. They need a few quiet years, change the subject from migrants, and a better economy. I don’t think they will get it.

  296. Yes.

  297. Here’s the one in Phoenix, AZ that I’ve cruzed within:

    https://youtu.be/H6c47nd7I4Y

    Slightly less ‘sleek’ than the Siemans?

    Here’s an example of the one in Minneapolis, that I’m familiar with:

    https://youtu.be/MwWvXNIjx5Q

    A bit more traditional with more of a square boxed look.

  298. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Of course, you completely ignored my point that the theory of Slav migration into the Balkans in the 7th century is probably false as the evidence for it is weak and it was possible there was actually emigration from the Balkans to East Europe. I’m not claiming anything as I’m not an expert on Slav migrations but the evidence for the mainstream theories of Slav migrations after 0 AD is weak. This may be my fault since I didn’t properly put the comment on this as a reply to you.

    Still, you can have fun being a Monkeykranian who thinks he’s better than Serbs and somehow has more moral authority than them.

  299. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    That’s actually a fair-enough perspective for the most part.

    I would add that the reason for the mutual hatreds is competing territorial claims plus a brutal and bloody history of mass murder and forced expulsion (which Serbs have actually been the biggest victims of, and aren’t actually anywhere near as much at fault for compared to their neighbours, despite powerful media propaganda painting Serbs as the ultimate villains).

    I would also add that the Muslims in the Balkans are basically a part of “Team Diversity” and servants of a religion completely alien to Europe as they are a leftover of the Turkish invasions. Being hostile to them is completely reasonable and logical.

    For my part, I genuinely think the diversity and “cultural enrichment” going on in the West right now is disastrous and tragic. It’s not fair to wish death and devastation by diversity on anyone (besides maybe a few certain groups). I sincerely wish you guys all the best with beating back diversity but that’s on you, not me, of course. As a piece of good news, it seems like Salvini and the Italians gave managed to do just that.

    https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/10/italy-s-matteo-salvini-live-broadcasts-closure-of-one-of-europe-s-largest-migrant-centres

  300. Russian, is genetically closest to Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians and to some extent Finns. And then in other areas of the country, to nationalities like Poles and Ukrainians.
    Balkan people genetically, are a different race

    Here are the differences between these groups on the phenotype:

    the North Russian
    https://d.radikal.ru/d31/1907/82/dcfaa643e662.jpg

    South Russian
    https://d.radikal.ru/d15/1907/f8/2362d6e3c352.jpg

    Balkan Slavs (Montenegrins)
    https://d.radikal.ru/d22/1907/57/d50a2c8ba6ff.jpg

  301. In Russia, there were some things which were actually intelligently privatized in the 1990s, which still results in benefits today – for example, very competitive telecommunication sector today.

    Which telecommunication assets were privatized intelligently (regional telcos, Rostel, Sviazinvest?!) and how did that lead to the very competitive telecommunications sector today?

  302. Of course, you completely ignored my point that the theory of Slav migration into the Balkans in the 7th century is probably false as the evidence for it is weak and it was possible there was actually emigration from the Balkans to East Europe.

    I also ignore alien theory of the Egyptian pyramids.

    I’m surprised you didn’t mention the fact that SiBeRia was actually part of ancient Serbia, another pet theory of Serb nationalists.

    Still, you can have fun being a Monkeykranian who thinks he’s better than Serbs

    That’s not saying much, or anything to brag about because it is true of literally everyone in Europe.

  303. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Of course you ignore any conceptual thinking whatsoever that’s outside the realm of the mainstream. After all, you know very well that only wisdom from Berlin, Vienna, London and your comedian Jew master has any value.

    So what? Half of Europe is getting ripped apart by diversity anyway. Those of them that are arrogant enough to think they’re infinitely superior to Serbs can have fun doing so while they get cucked out of existence for all I care. Of course, you can have fun thinking you’re superior to Serbs while you live in a country that serves as an open air brothel for the world, that literally only exists on the map because it was made by NATO and Jews to serve as a foil against Russia.

    You Ukrainians are even worse than the “North Macedonians” honestly. Of course, the mentally disturbed complex of Monkeydonianism is significantly less severe than Monkeykranianism. I’ve honestly reached the point where I’ve stopped caring what crap you spew about Serbia and Serbs.

    You can throw whatever insult you like but you’ll never change the fact that your country is nothing more than a fake and artificially created anti-Russian foil and it will never be anything more than that no matter how hard pathetic Monkeykranian cucks like you screech. Serbia and Serbs will always be superior to fake scum like Monkeykrainians. Time will prove this for the world to see even if it deliberately tries to look away.

    Do the world a favor and kill yourself you worthless Monkeykranian trash.

  304. Gerard1234 says

    I also ignore alien theory of the Egyptian pyramids.

    I’m surprised you didn’t mention the fact that SiBeRia was actually part of ancient Serbia, another pet theory of Serb nationalists.

    Bizarre that you would seek to project the plentiful, mind-numbingly stupid Ukrop “nationalist” antihistorical, antiintellectual theories on their supposed history – onto Serbs.
    Nearly as dumb and shameful as you adapting and plaigirising my “North Caucasus of Europe” comment about Galicia, even though it embarasses Banderastan further – just for the purposes of making another pseudo-point about some other time-wasting issue

  305. Gerard1234 says

    This is so true – what I’ve been thinking all the time

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1149633188261531648

    Amusingly enough the one time a westerner did try and think about Ukraine, he was actually talking about somewhere else – a pal of mine in the US thought some film about the fictional character Hannibal Lector made out his character to have been a Ukrainian brought up during the Golodomor, I didn’t have a clue because I haven’t seen the film – but then checked the plot

    ……….it turned out he was a Lithuanian-jew holocaust survivor ( as a factor, but certainly not excuse for the characters behaviour)

    You know things are bad when your Ukrainian national or cultural icons are actually fictional Lithuanian-jewish cannibal psychiatrists

  306. but the West’s issues here are with Russia. OTOH, it does demonstrate that at least subconsciously, even Westerners agree that there is no Ukraine – only Russia.

    Sure Karlin, and that’s why day by day US military experts and US arms are increasing in presence and volume in Ukraine.

    You know things are bad when your Ukrainian national or cultural icons are actually fictional Lithuanian-jewish cannibal psychiatrists

    It must be bad when Russian nationalists are obsessed by all things Ukrainian and flood comments about it at blogsites like this 24/7. 🙂 🙂

  307. AP hates Serbs because they shot some Habsburg in 1914, he actually claims descent from those inbred retards…

    This is a common mental state among some emigres and their offspring in N America: they live in nothing, surrounded by collapsing white demographics, so they make up fanciful geneology and nutty historical theories and dreams. Sometimes they prance around Hollywood claiming ‘duke-this’ or ‘count-that’ trying to create fake identity that they can no longer have.

  308. reiner Tor says

    Those old trams are high-floor. Not good for the elderly, disabled, tired, sick, etc.

    The newer ones all look alike because they are all low-floor.

  309. …US military experts and US arms are increasing in presence and volume in Ukraine.

    It matches the increase of Russia’s presence in Ukraine’s space since 2014 with Crimea and Donbas. Russia is today strategically in a much stronger position.

    As a rational person you should agree that at this point is is obvious that no side will get everything it wants, it will be a stalemate. Most likely a Western-allied – but not in EU or Nato – Galicia and central Ukraine, and Russia-leaning, or actually independent, east and south. In other words, a permanent playground for geo-political meddlers. In a way, most of Ukraine’s history has been the same thing – an object or a tool for others. They had an opportunity in the last few decades to change that, but that requires unity and a sense of tolerance for each other, and the pro-West fanatics have prevented it. Being an object in other people’s games is not much fun.

  310. Mr. Hack says

    I’ve always hoped that Ukraine would find a third way for itself, some sort of Findlandization, and concentrate on building itself up. As a neutral country, it could take advantage of both European and Russian cross economic trade, etc;…but it’s a dangerous world out there, and sometimes you need the help of a larger player to help safeguard your gains.

  311. Thorfinnsson says

    who want s a bunch of crippled old fags on the tram

  312. You can build or modernize any classic trams, also to be low-floor trams.

    In Czech Republic they are experts in this area. (So there was no reason Hungary could not have modernized the trams to be low floor, or just built new low-floor versions of the classic trams, as they do in Czech Republic)

  313. Strong old fags, however, know how to ride the tram for free

  314. Lol it looks like a university exam or dissertation question. If I answer correctly in 10,000 words, I will at least be given a degree in competition law?

  315. Mr. Hack says

    As kids, for a cheap thrill, we would hook up to the back of bumpers of cars on a wintry day and get a free ride….Another favorite was throwing snowballs at fast moving semi trucks at the driver’s window. Once in a great while, a pissed off driver would actually slow down and reverse his trek and try and capture his attacker. 🙂

  316. Appearance of those trams, is really a hybrid between a train and a coach. It matches the modern city.

    But the historic central European cities, which live from their aesthetics, need beautiful or stylish trams.

    It’s depressing even in Vienna, which has some of the most attractive old trams – they are adding these ugly modern style ones.

  317. Thanks for the recommendations, I downloaded the first book. Good to see you around again!

  318. AP hates Serbs because they shot some Habsburg in 1914,

    Being ultimately responsible for the war that ended European civilization was certainly a bad mark on the Serbian people.

    he actually claims descent from those inbred retards

    LOL, no.

    But you love to lie.

    ome emigres and their offspring in N America: they live in nothing

    ???

    surrounded by collapsing white demographics

    White American TFR is higher than that of your and of almost all European countries.

    We have half-white Latinos, you have Muslims and gypsies.

    fanciful geneology

    It’s not fanciful if it’s your own grandparents whom you’ve known.

    What is “fake” is your literacy – you would have been a much happier and more pleasant illiterate peasant. I would have respected you then.

  319. Of course you ignore any conceptual thinking whatsoever that’s outside the realm of the mainstream

    That’s right. I ignore alien origins of Egyptian pyramids and Balkan origins of Slavs.

    Half of Europe is getting ripped apart by diversity anyway.

    Still better than Serbs.

    think they’re infinitely superior to Serbs can have fun doing so while they get cucked out of existence for all I car

    Serbia is 8% gypsy.

    Gypsies are probably better than Serbs too. They are less bloodthirsty, at least.

    I’ve honestly reached the point where I’ve stopped caring what crap you spew about Serbia and Serbs.

    No, you care very much 🙂

    you live in a country that serves as an open air brothel for the world,

    Like you did for the Turks for 500 years?

    Sorry, Ukrainians aren’t Serbs.

    Serbia and Serbs will always be superior

    Keep telling yourself that, you still won’t believe it.

  320. “Chernobyl is in the Ukraine, but the West’s issues here are with Russia. OTOH, it does demonstrate that at least subconsciously, even Westerners agree that there is no Ukraine – only Russia”

    Well, Chernobyl was what it was, due to Moscow..

  321. Mr. Hack says

    I can appreciate your fondness for older design of inner city trams. I often submerge myself in history books, old black & white movies, classical music etc; Some cities, however, seem to retain their better older buildings and architecture and yet seem to organically include updated more modern and interesting buildings too. It’s the same with music and art in general. The classics will always be the classics, something to measure greatness by, however, I do enjoy modern music and art – architecture?…automobile design, yes and no. Light rail? You’ve forever opened up my eyes to taking closer notice of these ubiquitous city dwellers. You must be big on trains too?

  322. Not that Croats and Serbs actually differ in any way at all to justify their mutual animosity

    Croats have more Slavic descent than do Serbs. They are also more Western in the real sense – Serbs spent centuries under the Turks. I think I recall on some internet flamefest Croats referring to Serbs as “Servs” because of how they served the Turks.

  323. OK.

    Also, do you have a link to this study? I’d like to personally see it again.

  324. The study is now behind a paywall. Here is the abstract:

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6443374_Y-STR_variation_among_Slavs_evidence_for_the_Slavic_homeland_in_the_Middle_Dnieper_Basin

    Essentially, all Eastern and Western Slavs, plus Slovenes and northern Croats, are Slavs.

    Southern and Bosnian Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Montenegrins, Macedonians and Bulgarians are not Slavs. They are Slavic-speaking indigenous Balkan peoples, like Albanians but they forgot their native languages.

    Hungarians are actually more Slavic by descent than are Serbs or Bulgarians.

    So when Serbs were slaughtering Hungarians, in terms of pure genetics, it was Balkanoids killing Slavs. Croats were the Slavs in the Balkan conflict between the two peoples.

    Even when they are not Slavic-speaking (in the case of Hungarians), Slavs find themselves defending Europe’s borders from savages 🙂

    It’s a little more nuanced, of course. Serbs and Bulgarians are probably of about 20% Slavic descent. They are like African-Americans, not pure Africans. And Hungarians, Slovenes, Ukrainians, Slovaks and southern Russians have some Balkan descent.

  325. As for the Balkans my true view is that you’re a rougher part of the European family. Embarrassing at times, but still part of the family. And roughness has its virtues at times.

    Balkanoids are to Europeans, what Laotians and Rohinga are to Koreans or Japanese.

  326. big on trains too

    Yes but trains are going fast, out in the countryside, so their external appearance is less important.

    Trams are so slow and in the centre of the city, so they became a very important part of the city. Moreover, most of the old ones are very beautiful.

    By the way, look at the old Leningrad trams, from the war era (they need to return permanently).

  327. He was always around a bit, just with the other account.

  328. Being ultimately responsible for the war that ended European civilization was certainly a bad mark on the Serbian people.

    The Habsburgites are ultimately responsible for that war.

  329. Hungarians are actually more Slavic by descent than are Serbs or Bulgarians.

    So says you unlike many (if not most others) familiar with the matter.

    It’s a little more nuanced, of course. Serbs and Bulgarians are probably of about 20% Slavic descent. They are like African-Americans, not pure Africans. And Hungarians, Slovenes, Ukrainians, Slovaks and southern Russians have some Balkan descent.

    What’s really nuanced is what’s said in the second and third sentences directly above. One can find considerable numbers of Serbs and Bulgarians looking like the stereotype Russian/Slav, with others looking more Turkish.

  330. All those Balkan countries drink Turkish coffee, but I wonder if that’s true even as far North as Hungary?

  331. You don’t believe in DNA so you have nothing intelligent to contribute here.

  332. They murdered their own heir to the throne?

  333. Habsburgs by invading, occupying and murdering a lot of people in the Balkans were fully responsible for WWI. The fact that it heavily damaged the European civilization is a burden that will forever stay with them.

    The petty, incompetent wanna-be regional imperialists – like the Habsburg degenerates – were the worst thing for Europe at that time. They didn’t accept that it was time for them to go. That was just stupidity.

  334. I can’t really imagine Russians doing this, but “Balkanoid” behavior seems common amongst svidomy Ukrainians. Example from a few hours ago:

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2303449126415112

  335. In terms of race, Serbs look most similar to Italians?

    I’m guessing, their origin is mainly from the Ancient Illyrians , who also colonized parts of Italy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

    However, my knowledge of the country is limited from skimming some YouTube video. But they have a bit of Italian style and personality as well?

  336. Why?

    If you look at any film about Belgrade or Zagreb, it seems to have a very Mediterranean country atmosphere. In some ways, it’s more civilized (and a healthier civilization) than Northern countries.

  337. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Lol. The fact that AP is an inbred Habscuck retard explains a lot.

    Most of the other Ukrainians on the forum probably dislike Serb attitudes on the but not enough to go as far as AP.

    Everything makes perfect sense now. His falsifying of history in favour of Croats, his worrying nervousness about their being Balkan DNA in Ukraine lol and his arrogant incoherent blabbering.

    Of course, I burst in a fit of anger in my previous comment, but honestly, Habscucks are 1 million times worse than Ukrainians. Of course, Ukraine really is a Habsburg creation in many ways as well …

  338. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Lol. Your response is so pathetic.

    It just shows you lack basic history knowledge. Serbs literally fought the Turks for 500 years on and off. In fact, they actually served and fought for Habscuckia against the Turks for a long time. That is, in Freikorps units. Of course, the Habscuck faggots repaid them by trying to impose Catholicism on them, colonize the Balkans with Germans, and by threatening to declare war on Serbia in 1913 to create Albania (Britain and Italy are also at fault for creating Albania). You are literally to blame why a Muslim, terrorist and Narcotics, prostiitution and organ trafficking state exist in Europe. If you had any sense at all, you would be ashamed of that alone, let alone for anything else. Of course, you don’t.

    I genuinely do believe Serbs are morally superior. Serbs are actually even more superior to inbred retard Habscucks like you compared to Ukrainians. Of course, you are both so the superiority is simply multiplied.

  339. We suffered the most dysgenic period in the history of humanity.
    Firstly, more than half of military age males were killed in WW1, obviously patriotic and capable ones more than cowards, opportunists and collaborators. Even worse, the killed Serbs were statefounding, royalist ones, while tribal Montenegrins, former Habsburg lapdogs and others suffered much less, not to mention non-Serbs like Cincars, Gypsies, Shqiptars and Muslims.

    Secondly, April War came, before that subhuman retards effected a March coup (instigated by British and Black Hand remnants) – and while they were brave enough to chant against Germans and Axis and proclaim their willingness to fight the war, the protestors and coupists were in reality cowardly retards and deserters.
    Yugoslavia folded like a cheap suit – who would have guessed that giving amnesty to Croat WW1 invaders and having your PM (Maček) be a Croat volunteer in invasion of Serbia, while the Slovenian author of Srbe ob/na vrbe (hang Serbs on villow trees – Croats and Ukrainians love to sing it) and anti-Serb agitator (Natlačen) was governor of Slovenia/Dravska banovina would result in Croats and Slovenians deserting army, officers switching sides and joining the invaders.
    This is one of many reasons why I hate Freemason Karađorđević dynasty and am radically anti-monarchist.

    Immediately, Germans took some 200 thousand Serbs to internment – those deemed potentially most troublesome – Germans respected Serbs due to WW1 and acted accordingly. My family included – one member died in Norway, in a prisoner camp, while the other worked on a farm in Germany and was apparently treated well.

    Croats immediately started their sadistic murderous spree, appaling Germans (I won’t go into details, but contrary to Holocaust lack of documents and correspondence, the Germans were very explicit and precise regarding Croat terror in their letters and reports).
    They were systematic – Serbs could apply for conversion and/or express loyalty for new state, and local officials would issue a document of virtue and personal merit – however –
    teachers, professors, merchants, priests and other conscious and educated individuals were prohibited from receiving such documents – they were to be executed, while proletarian and peasant biomass was to be assimilated.

    Ustashe savagery sparked uprising in a region the Germans expected to be quiet and calm – Yugocommunists exploited persecution and desparation and attracted significant numbers, and led them to death on numerous occasions.

    As the tide of war turned, liberation came. The liberators executed more people than Germans killed in the invasion and executed during military government – again, the Yugocommunists targeted burgeoisie, industrialists, clergy and other national elite.
    The leader of Yugocommunists was a Croat corporal from a particularly notorious WW1 division in the invasion of Serbia – Tito.

    In the next 45 years, Serbs were ruled by foreigners/enemies – Tito and Kardelj, had their history re-written, their culture subverted – a Croat writer Krleža was in charge of encyclopedia and he literally crossed out “problematic” facts and events from Serb past.
    Ahistorical, non-ethnic borders were drawn, separate nations and identities were fostered at the expense of Serbs, two autonomous provinces were created in Serbia proper.
    And then came the 90s, CIA-CANVAS groundwork, euroatlantic fifth column vs. quasinationalist/leftist patriot government, widespread desertion and anti-war sentiment (in Serbia, miniscule percentage wanted to fight for Serbs under attack in Croatia and Bosnia), protests, harsh sanctions, mass emigration, colour revolution/coup, euroatlanticist vermin rise to power and proceed to bleed the country dry.

    Yes, we are subhumans today, there is no escaping the truth.
    The damage is irreversible, but some measure of normalization and progress is taking place since 2012.

    Our only redeeming value is that we served as a warning to Russians (and Chinese) on the true nature of West, international law and subversion/colour revolution.

    We need at least 50 years to build something resembling a functioning economy and society. This is the basic pre-requisite of settling the score with neighbours in the future.

  340. I genuinely do believe Serbs are morally superior.

    Because you are a genuine idiot. High on “slobodarstvo” and Serb stupidity.

    Only a fool can discuss moral superiority in context of geopolitics and foreign relations.
    There are only national interests and means of achieving them.

    The “moral superiority” and “right side of history” with which you delude yourself have halved Serb ethnic areas, destroyed any chance of a normal nation state and gave our blood enemies free reign to do whatever they want.

    1903 is the year things went south.

  341. Technically speaking, though, Laotians and Rohingya are considered Asians. Probably lower-IQ Asians, but still Asians. That’s certainly what the US Census Bureau would consider them as.

    BTW, Croats might be comparable to Vietnamese (but with a much smaller total population) in the sense that they are a fusion of sorts. Vietnamese are probably smarter on average than other Southeast Asians are and might have also historically been influenced by China more than other Southeast Asians were. At the same time, though, in terms of appearance, Vietnamese probably look more similar to other Southeast Asians than to Chinese. In regards to Croats, based on PISA, they do appear to be somewhat smarter on average than Serbs are and in terms of ancestry are also a mix between Slavs and Balkanoids (at the very least in terms of percentages of Croatia’s total population; I’m not sure just how much mixing there has historically been between Slavic northern Croats and Balkanoid southern Croats).

  342. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    You should be ashamed of yourself for falsifying and openly lying about history so much to others. Of course, that’s an expectation too high to have of you.

    The Magyars came and invaded the Pannonian Basin from the Ural mountains (centuries long migration) in the 10th century AD. They absolutely did assimilate and mix with Slavs. Still, claiming Magyars = Slavs is absurd. Especially to claim that they are more Slav than Serbs and Bulgarians.

    Of course, it’s important to clarify that there actually wasn’t a lot of race mixing at all in Serbia during occupation under Turks. The nature of the Turkish occupation was such that only Muslims were allowed to live in cities. Otherwise all the Christians had to roam around in small towns, villages, forests, hills and mountains in order to survive. The Serbian Hajduks came from these places after all. Of course the Turks did pillage and rape whenever they got the chance. Still, it’s very clear when looking at Serbs the fact that Blonde haired Serbs even exist is proof that there was minimal race mixing. Of course, even among Bosnian Muslims (Serb converts to Islam), there are still a lot of blonde haired people and they literally lived among the Turks in cities for centuries where the Turks had easy opportunity to breed with them. This is something that can easily be concluded without looking at genetic studies which is something that can logically be confirmed by genetic studies.

    It’s also important to clarify that Turks themselves are not a homogenous people. Turks come from the Turanic tribe that is all Asian. Most current Turks are actually Muslim converted Greeks, Slavs, Georgians and Armenians or some raced mixed mongrels. Very few of them are actually the real original homogenous Turanics from Central Asia that invaded Asia Minor in the 11th century.

    Of course, your love for your Croat pets knows no bounds. Croats are literally a creation of the Vatican and they never existed before the Great Schism of 1054 (The Vatican split from Constantinople, not the other way around). There is literally no mention of Croats existing on the current territory of Croatia besides falsified historical records.

    In fact, the Frankish scholar Reinhard in the Royal Frankish Annals mentions Serbs existing in Dalmatia as far back as the 8th century. Believing Croats even existed as a people before 1054 requires people to simply uncritically swallow Habscuck and Croat falsification of history. Croats even go so far as to fake having their own king called Zvonimir in the 10th century. That is, they literally made a bust of him in Croatia but without a saddle lol. Only people who don’t know history can believe a king in Europe in the 10th century would ride around without a saddle. Only Hun raiders and people of ancient times rode without saddles. Croats can’t even properly falsify history at all …

    Croats have never even had their own king because they never even existed before the 11th century lol. They’ve literally only ever been a servant people to Habscucks, Hungarians, Italians and Germans. Of course, the rest of their supposed history is literally a plagiarism of Serb history, culture and everything else. Hence their outlandish claims of things like Nikola Tesla being a Croat. Croats are literally good at nothing besides lying, trickery, committing genocide, mass murder, ethnic cleansing, forced expulsions of populations and war crimes. The semi Jew US ambassador Richard Holbrooke described the Croats best as, “Junkyard attack dogs” when he used them against Serbs.

    The Croats aren’t only just genocidal, mass murderers and ethnic cleansers of Serbs. They are literally guilty of mass murdering and forcibly expelling hundreds of thousands of Italians at the end of WW2 from Istria and Dalmatia (with Slovenian help).

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian-Dalmatian_exodus

    Of course, the Habscuck and Croat propaganda never ends and is still as forceful as ever.

  343. Habsburgs by invading, occupying and murdering a lot of people in the Balkans

    They brought civilization to the Balkans as they did everywhere else.

    https://voxeu.org/article/habsburg-empire-and-long-half-life-economic-institutions

    It’s no coincidence that the greatest Serb ever, Tesla, was a product of the Hapsburg system.

    A main reason why Poland has been more successful than Ukraine is that about 1/4 of Poland was Hapsburg but only 1/8 of Ukraine was.

    fully responsible for WWI.

    Regicide and support of regicide caused that disaster. And those nations most responsible experienced dire consequences, as AK pointed out.

    They didn’t accept that it was time for them to go

    Like it’s time for European civilization to go, cause its not post-modern? They don’t accept it when they don’t open the borders? LOL.

    Hapsburg fate mirrors that of European civilization and culture with which it was intertwined.

    You prefer Sovok instead, others prefer “diversity”, it’s all been decline in essence.

  344. Being ultimately responsible for the war that ended European civilization was certainly a bad mark on the Serbian people.

    If one wants to be fair, though, Austria-Hungary, Germany, and Russia also have their share of the blame for this. Austria-Hungary could have accepted the Serbian response to their ultimatum, Germany could have avoided giving Austria-Hungary a blank check, and Russia could have pushed the Serbs to be more conciliatory and/or refused to fight if Austria-Hungary and Serbia would have still went to war against each other.

    In Serbia’s defense, it did have big ambitions (creating Yugoslavia and all that) whereas Austria-Hungary, Germany, and Russia did not have huge territorial ambitions in 1914. Killing Franz Ferdinand was obviously unacceptable, but Serbia did have more to gain from victory in a major war than Austria-Hungary, Germany, and Russia had–albeit probably also being at a higher risk of major population losses as a result of such a war. This is ultimately what ended up happening–Serbia got Yugoslavia while Austria-Hungary, Germany, and Russia all got screwed. (Population-wise, of course, Serbia suffered much heavier losses than all of these other countries did, though.) Of course, Serbia did subsequently lose the overwhelming majority of its territorial gains (everything except Vojvodina), but having a huge South Slavic state for seven decades has to count for something.

  345. Like Thailand or Indonesia vs. Korea?

  346. A main reason why Poland has been more successful than Ukraine is that about 1/4 of Poland was Hapsburg but only 1/8 of Ukraine was.

    Actually, there’s a more banal reason for this–Poles are a bit smarter than Ukrainians are. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if the average IQ gap between Poland and Ukraine has increased to up to half a standard deviation (so, up to 7.5 IQ points) by now as a result of brain drain from Ukraine over the last 50 years. I might be a bit too pessimistic here, but an average IQ gap of 0.3-0.4 standard deviations between Poland and Ukraine right now seems perfectly reasonable. So, probably something comparable to the average IQ gap between US Hispanics and US Blacks.

  347. Regicide and support of regicide caused that disaster. And those nations most responsible experienced dire consequences, as AK pointed out.

    I certainly don’t justify what Gavrilo Princip did, though I can’t help but think that the Austro-Hungarians could have been a bit more cautious–for instance, by letting Serbia have at least some of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1908. Annexing B-H both pissed off Serbia and ruined Austria-Hungary’s Muslim-free image. Why not make Serbia happy and also give it some Muslims? Such a move might have perhaps paid off on A-H’s part.

    Also, as a side note, while Serbia and the Black Hand do deserve some blame for WWI, the blame isn’t exclusively theirs. After all, by your logic, we could just as easily say that Saddam Hussein is completely at fault for the Iraq War due to him playing cat-and-mouse with UN inspectors. Yes, Saddam certainly deserves a fair share of blame for this, but to be fair, invading Iraq in 2003 wasn’t actually the US’s only option in regards to this.

  348. I don’t see any videos, pictures, and/or articles in your post here. Where’d it/they go?

  349. IMO:
    Serbia has 11 gold, 25 silvers, 28 bronze medals and 11 honourable mentions in 13 appearances.

    Croatia has 5 gold, 22 silver, 68 bronze and 33 honourable mentions in 26 appearances.

    Slovenia has 0, 4, 35, 57 respectively, in 26 appearances.

    Bosnia has 0, 6, 45, 52 respectively, in 26 appearances.

    Physics – similar story

    You would be hard pressed to find a top US or British University with no Serb professors.

  350. BTW, the problem with WWI is that it was way too bloody. The Mexican-American War is what I consider to be an example of an efficient war–with the US acquiring huge amounts of useful new territories at a relatively little cost in lives. In contrast, a quick victory in WWI was very hard to achieve (I’m not a believer in the Schlieffen Plan) and thus it was probably more prudent to avoid WWI than to fight it.

    As a side note, though, Germany and Austria-Hungary should have probably waited until a point in time where Britain would have abandoned the Franco-Russian alliance (due to Russia’s growing military power) before they would have actually sparked a World War–if, of course, the goal was to actually spark and fight a World War.

  351. Yeah, Thailand and Indonesia are certainly duller in comparison to Korea. This doesn’t necessarily mean that they don’t belong to one race.

    Southern Italians are duller than northern Italians are but the two of them are still a part of the same ethnic group. The same is also true for southern Russians versus northern Russians and for West Virginia Whites versus Massachusetts Whites.

  352. What exactly is this data for?

  353. Some Russian author (Bykov?) went to an Okean Elzy concert in London. He was amazed by the Ukrainians emotionally singing their national anthem in the audience. He said he couldn’t imagine Russians doing that.

    I don’t see anything Balkan about this display you posted. If you wanted to make a Balkan comparison, the massacre of Poles in Volhynia would have been a good one.

  354. In fact, the Frankish scholar Reinhard in the Royal Frankish Annals mentions Serbs existing in Dalmatia as far back as the 8th century.

    The name is Einhard, the year is 822 in Annales regni Francorum and it is not clear whether he wrote the 820-829 chronicle segment.

    Now you’ve learned something, so please stop polluting the thread – no one is interested in Russian-Ukrainian bickering, let alone Serb-Ukrainian.

  355. International Mathematical Olympiad success, a very good measuring tool on its own.

    For some reason, the supposedly superior IQ Slovenians and Croats are consistently outperformed by Serbs in top level Math, Physics and Programming, as well as in Medicine, Engineering.

  356. Southern Italians are duller than northern Italians are but the two of them are still a part of the same ethnic group.

    LOL, they’re not. Completely different genetics and history.

    Thing is, a lot of southern Italians arrived to the North post-unification.

  357. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    I know the history well and agree with most of your perspective of those events.

    Creating Yugoslavia in 1919 was a complete disaster. In fact the 3 greatest historical disasters for Serbia in the 20th century were creating Yugoslavia instead of a larger Serbia in 1919, the Air Force coup in 1941 with going against Germany instead of Axis collaboration, and Milosevic cucking against Krajina and Republika Srpska Serbs in the 1990’s. I agree. Our 20th century history from 1919 to now is a complete disaster. It only makes our situation extremely difficult right now. We suffered a complete reversal and mass death of millions of our people from the position of winning and being set for all time, to having to start over with a roughly pre and post 1st Balkan War sized Serbia.

    1903 was not a year of disaster, 1915 and 1919 were. The Obrenovic’s where overthrown because they were cucking so hard to the Habscucks that no one in Serbia could stand it. The bald imbecile Aleksander Obrenovic married the sterile whore Draga Masin and that was the final straw. Dragutin Mihajlovic (APIS) was a legend who killed that bald retard Obrenovic. King Peter Karadjordjevic led Serbia through the glorious victories in the 1st and 2nd Balkan Wars.

    The assassination of Franz Ferdinand was probably a staged psy-op by the Habscucks (They literally sent him on June 28th, Vidovdan, to Bosnia) and Communist International (Trotsky had contact with Young Bosnia after all) to create a world war. It was a horrible strategic decision since Serbia was recovering from the Balkan Wars and Russia needed more time to grow, although the gesture was well deserved.

    Everything went wrong when the imbecile Aleksandr Karadjordjevic inherited the crown during WW1 after Peter died during the Albanian Golgotha and retreat to Greece. He first executed APIS in Greece, the man who literally brought him to power. Then, along with Nikola Pasic, made Yugoslavia in 1919. That’s where it went wrong. I’m personally strongly pro-royalism, not monarchy. That is, specific competent and capable monarchs, not blind obedience to monarchy regardless of anything. The problem with monarchy is just too much randomness in the quality of rulers.

    It’s completely understandable for you to be angry at Aleksandr Karadjordjevic II. The thing is that Serbia may not even have existed on the map if it wasn’t for Djordje Petrovic or the first Karadjordje. The First Serbian Uprising failed because Napoleon attacked Russia in 1812. Not because Milos Obrenovic was more based with the hardcore cucking his dynasty did. I absolutely concede that Knjaz Mihailo Obrenovic was a political genius who managed to get the Turks to voluntarily leave Sumadijska (Forest) Serbia with minimal violence from 1862-1867.

    King Milan Obrenovic completely went wrong by cucking Churchill’s dad (Yes, the famous Winston Churchill is a bastard child King Milan Obrenovic had with Lady Randolphe Churchill) to create Winston Churchill, and attacking Bulgaria in 1885 under Habscuck influence. I know, the Bulgarians massacred Serbs in WW1 and WW2 which is why it’s a real shame the Allies stopped us from burning and sacking Sofia in 1918 as revenge which was what Zivojin Music wanted. Still, if Milan Obrenovic didn’t attack Bulgaria in 1885, they would’ve never chosen a Habscuck as their monarch and went against us at the end of the 1st Balkan War by backing down in the face of the Great Powers and allowing Albania to be created. Of course, that would’ve meant no Albania, 2nd Balkan War and Monkeydonianism. Both dynasties had excellent and competent rulers who improved Serbia, expanded it’s territory and achieved big wins. Still, leaders from both dynasties also made horrible mistakes although of course, Karadjordjevic mistakes are much more catastrophic than the Obrenovic mistakes.

    In general, it’s completely understandable for you to be tired and angry about the current state of things in Serbia. Still, cucking so hard against your co-ethnics in front of random foreigners is pathetic and embarrassing. That is, if it serves no strategic purpose. Strategic cucking that gets things done is completely fine in my opinion. Your cucking serves no purpose and is therefore cringe and embarassing.

    As for morality and geo-politics, I agree. Self interests and national interests come first, then the rest. It’s simply how things work. As for private discussion, it can go in the way for whoever cares to hear what they want to.

    Settling the score with our neighbours requires the serious weakening or collapse and dissolution of the EU, NATO and USA. Of course, rebuilding a functioning economy and society is also ideal and desirable alongside this. Still, we can’t do anything for as long as Vucic keeps cucking to NATO, EU and the USA. We can’t even lift a finger with Kosovo until the West collapses in on itself from diversity. Of course, we have to sort out Kosovo first and then everything else. For now, we can only just collect scraps and gibs from the EU, Russia and China.

  358. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Look at the definition of regicide, imbecile.

    Regicide = the killing of a king.

    Franz Ferdinand was neither a king nor even capable of ascending the throne since his own Habscuck family literally disinherited him. He signed his own disinheritance anyway.

  359. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Honestly why are you cucking so hard against your own.

    Are you really that desperate for approval from the people on this thread? This is literally an open thread. There are no topic restrictions at all besides AK’s rules and your cringe cucking.

  360. LOL, Serb got triggered and unloaded a lot of written diarrhea.

    Almost everything you write here is nonsense (Ukraine not being populated in 18th century, Hungarians having less Slavic descent than Serbs, Balkans being original homeland of the Slavs, Epigon corrected you on some other details) so your long post isn’t even worth reading. I’ll stop after your first of many inaccuracies:

    The Magyars came and invaded the Pannonian Basin from the Ural mountains (centuries long migration) in the 10th century AD. They absolutely did assimilate and mix with Slavs. Still, claiming Magyars = Slavs is absurd.

    I didn’t claim Magyars = Slavs. I stated they are clearly more Slavic by descent than are Serbs,a bout twice as much. So relatively speaking, one can say that Serbs slaughtering Hungarians was a case of Albanians killing Slavs.

    Simplistically speaking, R1a is a genetic marker for Slavs and Balts in eastern/southern Europe (there is another branch of R1A in Scandinavia). In Slavic countries about 40% or so of the people carry this marker:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg/1024px-Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg.png

    So Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Czechia, Slovakia, and Slovenia are clearly Slavic by descent. So is southeastern Austria (many of the people there are probably Germanized Slovenians). Western Hungarians are Slavic by descent, eastern Hungarians and Croats are about half-Slavic. Serbs are about 1/4 Slavic although there appears to be a half-Slavic “island” on the Serbian-Bulgarian border.

    This is a very rough and simplistic summary, but it will do.

    Most of the rest you have written is nonsense not even worth addressing.

  361. I wouldn’t be surprised if the average IQ gap between Poland and Ukraine has increased to up to half a standard deviation (so, up to 7.5 IQ points) by now

    It’s probably a 2-3 or so point difference then as now. Enough to have some kind of macro impact but not enough to be really noticeable on an individual level. Ukrainians don’t have a reputation in Poland as being dumb. A 7.5 point average difference would lead to such an impression.

    as a result of brain drain from Ukraine over the last 50 years

    Poland has also had a brain drain of its own. Yet Polish IQ estimates remain normal.

    Ukraine still regularly produces chess champions:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariya_Muzychuk

    And the booming IT industry can’t function without some intelligence in the population.

  362. LOL, they’re not. Completely different genetics and history.

    Sure, southern Italians might have evolved to be more corrupt and less altruistic. However, are you suggesting that Italians don’t view themselves as one people?

  363. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Lol, kill yourself Habscuck.

    #GavriloPrincipdidnothingwrong

  364. Look at the definition of regicide, imbecile

    So Balkanoid thinks he knows English better than do the British:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/cousins_at_war_01.shtml

    From BBC:

    “lt was an act of regicide that catapulted Europe into war – an act that not unexpectedly took place in the Balkans. The region had been in a state of ferment for years, and the assassination of the heir to the Hapsburg Empire, the Archduke Franz Ferdinand, by a Serbian nationalist, was the culmination of a train of events leading inexorably to war.”

    Regicide can also refer to the murder of royalty, and Franz Ferdinand was royalty and indeed heir to the throne.

    Fate punished Serbia for its crime, it lost something like 30% of its population as a consequence.

    nor even capable of ascending the throne since his own Habscuck family literally disinherited him

    Are you really that stupid?

  365. On a related note, the word “cuck” seems to be popular among the dumber elements of the “alt-right.” I suspect this Serb isn’t even using the word properly.

    As a general rule, if someone on the internet is pro-Russian and anti-Western, but clearly and significantly dumber than any actual Russian, it is probably a Balkanoid.

  366. It’s probably a 2-3 or so point difference then as now. Enough to have some kind of macro impact but not enough to be really noticeable on an individual level. Ukrainians don’t have a reputation in Poland as being dumb. A 7.5 point average difference would lead to such an impression.

    Ukraine’s TIMSS score was 454 in PISA-adjusted terms, no? Poland scores around 500 on PISA. That’s almost half a standard deviation.

    We’ll get PISA results from both Poland and Ukraine this year and then we can do a better comparison.

    BTW, it’s far from clear that the Ukrainians who work in Poland have the same demographics (average IQ, et cetera) as the rest of the Ukrainian population has. If a disproportionate percentage of them are Galicians, then this could explain a higher IQ for them in comparison to Ukrainians elsewhere in Ukraine.

    There is some basis for this. I mean, Indians in the US have a reputation for being very smart even though they’re certainly not representative of the entire Indian population. Indians in Britain, meanwhile, perform slightly worse than White British people do–but even then, it’s not guaranteed that they are a good demographic representation of India’s entire population. If you want another example of this, you could look at Indian Muslims versus Pakistani Muhajirs (who are descended from the Indian Muslims who came to Pakistan in 1947 and afterwards). Indian Muslims don’t have a reputation for being intellectual but Pakistani Muhajirs do–at least relative to the rest of the Pakistani population. (I believe that Muhajirs held a disproportionate percentage of civil service jobs in Pakistan and also owned a disproportionate percentage of Pakistan’s most successful companies.)

    Anyway, I acknowledge the possibility that Ukrainians who work in Poland could be cognitively comparable to Poles. That doesn’t necessarily mean that Ukraine’s entire population is comparable to Poles in regards to average IQ, though.

    As for a brain drain, it would be interesting to see some statistics on this, but I was under the impression that Ukraine’s brain drain would be more severe since it is much poorer than Poland is. Of course, what works against Poland is that Poles can move en masse to other EU countries but Ukrainians cannot–yet, at least. This might not bode well for Ukraine in the future, though–specifically if/after Ukraine will join the EU. (In other words, one could view the Polish brain drain as perhaps being close to maxing out whereas the Ukrainian brain drain could continue for a long time to come. That said, though, some actual statistics would be nice.)

    Poland has also had a brain drain of its own. Yet Polish IQ estimates remain normal.

    Yeah, it would be interesting to see how smart Polish emigrants versus Ukrainian emigrants are–as well as their sheer numbers.

    Ukraine still regularly produces chess champions:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariya_Muzychuk

    So does India, no? I mean, a country could have a relatively low average IQ but still have a significant smart fraction.

    (Also, Yes, I get that India’s average IQ is environmentally depressed. That said, though, an India with an average IQ in the low- or mid-90s could accomplish a lot on a per capita basis if it will have a large smart fraction.)

    And the booming IT industry can’t function without some intelligence in the population.

    Doesn’t India also have a booming IT industry, though?

  367. Oh yes I do. So much for your unintelligent comment.

  368. ?

  369. Random photos. Over the course of time, I’ve seen countless Serbs and Bulgarians to substantiate what I said earlier at this thread. The Albanians are big on claiming an Illyrian identity – something reasonably disputed.

  370. Based on the data here, Ukraine’s average IQ is 93 and its smartest 5% of the population has an average IQ of 113:

    http://k12accountability.org/resources/Gifted-Education/Impact_of_Smart_Fractions.pdf

    The United Arab Emirates has an average IQ of 92 and its smartest 5% of the population has an average IQ of 115. Meanwhile, both Poland and Russia have an average IQ of 97 and their smartest 5% of the population has an average IQ of 118.

    You could say that Ukraine’s IQ could rise by a couple of points, and that’s true, but the same might also be true for Poland and Russia. After all, Anatoly Karlin previously calculated Russia’s average IQ potential to be around 100. The same might very well also be true for Poland.

    Anyway, 4-5 IQ points is about 0.3 standard deviations. So, I was roughly correct in regards to this–albeit slightly too pessimistic. The average IQ gap between Ukraine and Poland really does appear to be comparable to the average IQ gap between US Blacks and US Hispanics.

    It would be interesting how much of an effect brain drain had on all of these countries and especially on Ukraine and Poland since that article was published, though.

  371. Are you really that stupid?

    They disinherited FF’s children due to FF’s morganatic marriage but not FF himself.

  372. International Mathematical Olympiad success, a very good measuring tool on its own.

    It’s something, but also rather strange. Cumulative results by country:

    http://www.imo-official.org/results_country.aspx?column=awards&order=asc

    China #1, USA #2, Russia #3, that makes sense.

    Then Hungary #4? Ukraine beats Canada, Poland and France? Even though Ukraine started competing in 1993 and France has done so since 1967? Moldova beats Norway?

  373. As a general rule, if someone on the internet is pro-Russian and anti-Western, but clearly and significantly dumber than any actual Russian, it is probably a Balkanoid.

    By that logic, if someone writes about BLM but does this in an unsophisticated and unintellectual manner, then this writer is probably a black person as opposed to a white or Asian (or Jewish, who are considered white according to the US Census Bureau) person, correct?

  374. Meanwhile, both Poland and Russia have an average IQ of 97

    PISA 2015: Poland IQ – 100, Russia IQ – 99
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/world-map-of-pisa-2015-results/

  375. Yeah, the data from that article might have been somewhat outdated. That article was published in 2009 and it’s possible that the data in it is from even earlier than that. So, it’s at least 10 years old.

    BTW, I found something interesting in that article (I’ll link to it again so that no one here will miss it) :

    http://k12accountability.org/resources/Gifted-Education/Impact_of_Smart_Fractions.pdf

    Bosnia:

    Average IQ: 90.60
    Bottom 5% average: 69.88
    Top 5% average: 110.07

    Ukraine:

    Average IQ: 92.99
    Bottom 5% average: 70.91
    Top 5% average: 113.33

    Ukraine-Bosnia gap:

    Average IQ: 2.39
    Bottom 5% average: 1.03
    Top 5% average: 3.26

    So, whenever a Ukrainian talks about “dumb Balkanoids” or something like that, well, I could simply point out that the gaps between Ukraine and Bosnia are at least comparable and possibly even smaller than the gaps between Poland and Ukraine.

    As for the claim that Ukraine is not performing at its full potential, that might be true, but it might also be true for Bosnia. After all, Bosnia underperforms Greece by a couple of points.

  376. Based on the data here, Ukraine’s average IQ is 93 and its smartest 5% of the population has an average IQ of 113

    They used TIMMS. For whatever reason, Ukrainian kids were tested on TIMMS earlier in the school year.

    I made this comment in reference to Ukrainian vs. Russian and Romanian TIMMS (I don’t have time to hunt for the data about Poles):

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/map-russia-iq/?highlight=TIMMS#comment-2104946

    There are more stats on the comprehensive report:

    https://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/downloads/T11_IR_Mathematics_FullBook.pdf

    Page 344, hours spent teaching the subject. Apparently the Ukrainian kids don’t get as many hours of math teaching as the other ones do. This would probably cause their math result to underestimate their cognitive performance. Ukrainian kids get 132 hours of math instruction per year; Russian ones get 142, Romanians 145, (but Georgians 123). If math is an hour a day, that’s two weeks fewer classes for Ukrainians vs. Russians or Romanians.

    Page 354: Number of math topics covered by TIMMS (out of 19) intended to be taught to the kids: all 19 in Russia and Romania, only 14 in Ukraine. Ukrainian kids aren’t being taught data and probability at all and are only taught 4 of the 6 geometry topics.

    Finally there is age at time of testing (page 450). The Ukrainian kids were tested 5 months earlier than were the Russian kids and 7 months earlier than were the Romanian kids. This means about half the school year.

    These factors all suggest that for the purposes of determining cognitive ability, TIMMS scores underestimate Ukrainian IQ relative to Russian and Romanian. The Ukrainian kids spent 2 weeks a year less learning math, learned fewer subjects covered by TIMMS, and were tested about a semester earlier in the school year than were Russian and Romanian kids.

    I’m not sure, numerically, how much Ukraine’s TIMMS-derived estimated IQ would have to be adjusted relative to that of Russia and Romania in order to account for these factors. But, it would have to moved closer to Russia and further from Romania.

  377. Interesting information. Anyway, I have two questions for you:

    1. Do you think that the TIMSS results underestimate any other countries’ performance? For instance, Bosnia? Or Greece? Or some other country/countries?

    2. Do you think that this year’s PISA data is going to be reliable for all countries?

  378. BTW, off-topic, but if you had to guess my own IQ, what would you say it is?

  379. Also, in regards to Ukraine’s under-performance relative to Poland, I would like to point out that the Baltic countries never experienced Hapsburg rule and yet their post-1991 performance has been much closer to that of Poland than to that of Ukraine.

  380. So, whenever a Ukrainian talks about “dumb Balkanoids” or something like that, well, I could simply point out that the gaps between Ukraine and Bosnia are at least comparable and possibly even smaller than the gaps between Poland and Ukraine.

    1. Serbia had a lower average IQ than did Bosnia – 90.20. In Montenegro it was only 84. 22. In Macedonia it was 84.58. Romania – 89. But in Bulgaria it was 93.46. So Balkan average (not weighed by population) is 88.29. That’s 4.7 points lower than Ukraine. It’s a bigger gap than Poland and Ukraine.

    2. Argentina 81 was the same as Albania. Romania lower than Moldova. I think the results are somewhat suspect.

    3. The Ukrainian sample was based on TIMSS, and thus tested younger kids (see my other comment) so underestimated Ukrainians.

  381. 1. Do you think that the TIMSS results underestimate any other countries’ performance? For instance, Bosnia? Or Greece? Or some other country/countries?

    For whatever reason Bosnia and Greece weren’t on the chart. But Romanian kids were 7 months older and Macedonian, Russian and Hungarian and Lithuanian kids were 5 months older than were the Ukrainian kids. Ukrainians were the youngest ones tested in Eastern Europe (English kids were the same age as Ukrainians, and some western European countries were younger still). Taking that into account should probably add a point or so for the Ukrainians.

    2. Do you think that this year’s PISA data is going to be reliable for all countries?

    AFAIK it is done at the same time around the world so at least the age effect won’t be a problem.

  382. Only ~10% of Ukraine experienced Hapsburg rule, and Russian-ruled Ukraine was much more backward than were the Baltics under Russia.

  383. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Of course, if the BBC says so, it must be true!

    After all, my apologies, the BBC is right and it’s a very reliable source. The BBC is right, true Britons are Black Kangs that were native to the British Isles!

  384. 1. Serbia had a lower average IQ than did Bosnia – 90.20. In Montenegro it was only 84. 22. In Macedonia it was 84.58. Romania – 89. But in Bulgaria it was 93.46. So Balkan average (not weighed by population) is 88.29. That’s 4.7 points lower than Ukraine. It’s a bigger gap than Poland and Ukraine.

    Wouldn’t you:

    1. Need to include Greece in your calculations? After all, Greece is also a Balkan country.
    2. Weigh this data by the population of each Balkan country? After all, it would be unfair to give equal weight to a country with 5 or 10 million people versus a country with 1 or 2 million people.

    2. Argentina 81 was the same as Albania. Romania lower than Moldova. I think the results are somewhat suspect.

    Perhaps. A good idea might be to compare them with the results of PISA and other tests (if there are any).

    3. The Ukrainian sample was based on TIMSS, and thus tested younger kids (see my other comment) so underestimated Ukrainians.

    Why were the Ukrainian kids tested so young?

  385. Why was Ukraine much more backward under the Russian Tsars than the Baltics were? After all, didn’t the Baltics also have serfdom until the early 1800s (albeit not as late as 1861)?

  386. That’s exactly what I was thinking, you were just making an ignorant comment without any basis or knowledge of the issue because you heard it in a university classroom somewhere from your favorite professor. I’ve noticed a lot of 90s revisionism in Russians of your generation, so I’m a bit curious about what they’re teaching you.

  387. reiner Tor says

    Jewish family accepts a Syrian refugee man, tolerance is wonderful. This was promoted to me on Facebook, so I guess it’s typical multiculturalist propaganda.

  388. reiner Tor says

    Jewish family accepts a Syrian refugee man, tolerance is wonderful. This was promoted to me on Facebook, so I guess it’s typical multiculturalist propaganda.

    https://www.unhcr.org/news/stories/2018/1/5a58c12f4/jewish-family-finds-syrian-muslim-perfect-guest.html

  389. Svidomy turn up at the Italian trial of another svidomy for killing an Italian journalist in the Donbass, yell Slava Ukraini, manage to get the judge to up the sentence to 24 years from the 17 that the prosecution called for.

    I’m sure the svidomy chanted with zeal and passion, but they failed to get the results they hoped for – the opposite, actually. Maybe they believed Italy was like Ukraine and could pressure judges with displays of Ukrainian nationalism (that of course zero Italians care for)?

    You give the impression that you include bone headed ultranationalism as one of the defining features of Balkanoid behavior. In that case, how would you describe this?

  390. Why was Ukraine much more backward under the Russian Tsars than the Baltics were? After all, didn’t the Baltics also have serfdom until the early 1800s (albeit not as late as 1861)?

    Serfdom in the Baltic States was much tougher and longer than serfdom in Ukraine. But what does this have to do with backwardness?

  391. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Oh by the way, Nikola Tesla was not a product of Habscuck civilization. He emigrated from Habscuckia to the USA at a young age where he spent most of his life.

    If by that logic you claim he is a product of Habscuck “civilization”, it would be more proper to claim he’s a product of American or Anglo civilization. Nikola Tesla achieved what he did in spite of the Habscucks, not because of them. That is, of course, since the very thought that the discovery of electricity and Nikola Tesla’s other achievements are a product of Serb civilization is beyond your realm of understanding.

    The very thought of it must be irritating for Habscucks like you.

  392. reiner Tor says

    the discovery of electricity

    ?

  393. reiner Tor says

    If by that logic you claim he is a product of Habscuck “civilization”, it would be more proper to claim he’s a product of American or Anglo civilization.

    I’m not sure I’d credit the Habsburgs for Tesla, but he undoubtedly received his education and early experience in the Habsburg monarchy. So he was definitely not a product of America.

  394. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    My bad for making the statement “discovery of electricity”.

    To clarify I meant practical application of electricity through AC (Alternating Current) plus the first use of wireless power ever and a bunch of other things.

  395. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    As for Tesla being a product of Habscuckia, it depends whether you qualify an individual’s formative years or later life as more important to their achievements. By that logic, Anatoly Karlin is a product of Britain and the USA, and his Russian ethnicity or place of origin has no influence on what he’s done in the past, is doing right now or is going to do in the future.

    Regardless, it’s very clear that late 19th and early 20th century Habscuckia was so great that its best tried to emigrate away from, rebel against Habscuckia, or try to reform it.

    After all, Habscuckia is in many ways disturbingly similar to the modern west as it was based on multiculturalism and diversity with its dual monarchy and other cuckoldries. Just like the current West is a multicultural monstrosity taken to even more extreme levels, it will die due to its inherent self contradictions like Habscuckia did in one way or another.

    Of course, it’s important to note that the infamous Count Richard Von Koudenhove Khalergi with his Khalergi plan is a product of Habscuckia. Also, it should be noted that Otto Von Habsburg (who was literally Habscuckia’s king during WW1) with his son Karl Von Habsburg that’s currently in Austria’s parliament are eager supporters of Pan-Europeanism, the EU, the Khalergi plan and the current race replacement or whatever you want to call it project.

    Unsurprisingly enough, Karl Von Habsburg is still whining about how the rise of nationalism is “painful” just like his ancestors did lol.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iyF8PtfjPYs

  396. reiner Tor says

    That’s not really low-floor (there are stairs inside the tram, making it difficult to move inside), but anyway Hungary doesn’t have the industrial capacity to do that any more.

    Trams are not there mostly to entertain the tourists, but to transport passengers.

  397. reiner Tor says

    Otto was the son of the last Habsburg emperor/king, Charles I of Austria (Charles IV of Hungary).

    Your habit of transforming words with “cuck” inserted in them is pretty annoying after a while.

  398. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Thanks for that piece of information.

    Lol, I know. My use of the word “cuck”, and especially “Habscuck”, is meant as a deliberate troll against AP and Epigon. Especially AP. Toning it down in writing replies or content with other users that aren’t scum (AP), cringe (Epigon) or disturbed and defective in other ways is a completely reasonable expectation and something I can easily adhere to.

    Besides this, the word really does describe very well the act of deferring to or giving in to the interests of others in a non-sexual context. Of course, it does the same in that context as well. It became popular with 4Chan and among many others with good reason.

  399. 1. Need to include Greece in your calculations? After all, Greece is also a Balkan country.

    Greeks are generally not considered to be Balkanoids.

    2. Weigh this data by the population of each Balkan country? After all, it would be unfair to give equal weight to a country with 5 or 10 million people versus a country with 1 or 2 million people.

    I’m too lazy to make the calculation. However the most populous Balkan country, Romania, has an average IQ of 89 on according to the paper. I also forgot to add Albania with its 81. If you weighed the average by population I suspect you’d get an average of around 89 among Balkanoids.

    3. The Ukrainian sample was based on TIMSS, and thus tested younger kids (see my other comment) so underestimated Ukrainians.

    Why were the Ukrainian kids tested so young?

    They weren’t tested young compared to Western countries, just younger than the Eastern European countries. A better question – why were the eastern Europeans tested so late? Did the authorities want better scores?

  400. Svidomy turn up at the Italian trial of another svidomy for killing an Italian journalist in the Donbass, yell Slava Ukraini, manage to get the judge to up the sentence to 24 years from the 17 that the prosecution called for

    Is that why the sentence was increased? Too bad for the guy.

    From what I understand everything gets appealed in Italy anyways.

    You give the impression that you include bone headed ultranationalism as one of the defining features of Balkanoid behavior. In that case, how would you describe this?

    That was Thorfinsson’s take. I’d rather say – a combination of stupidity, bloodthirstiness and being easy to trigger and escalate.

  401. Oh by the way, Nikola Tesla was not a product of Habscuck civilization. He emigrated from Habscuckia to the USA at a young age where he spent most of his life.

    You literally know nothing that you write about, in typical Balkanoid style. Even about Serbs.

    Tesla was born in what is now Croatia and attended German-language schools. Per wiki, he became passionate about physics in gymnasium (also under Hapsburgs). He then attended university in Graz, Austria for two years, dropped out, attended classes in Prague, and then worked in Budapest. Thus all of his education occurred in Austria. He moved to Paris when he was 26.

    If he had grown up in Serbia he would have at most been a parish priest or something.

    And no, he didn’t discover electricity.

  402. IIRC the Russians subsidized education for Baltic peasants as a counterweight to the German nobles. OTOH Ukrainian peasants under Russia were just left alone.

  403. …They brought civilization to the Balkans as they did everywhere else.

    Everywhere else? Prague was a lot more civilised than Vienna when Habsburgs occupied it and suppressed Czechs for 300 years. Same for northern Italy that Habsburgs joyfully exploited in between occasional mass murders of the locals – check out what they did to Milano in 1848.

    Vienna was a backwater compared to a lot of the conquered lands until it sucked out life from the conquered provinces, (and I like Vienna).

    Killing a tyrant who comes to march around the lands that Habsburgs annexed 5 years earlier is hardly a ‘regicide’. Poor Ferdinand was a misguided fanatic who thought he could square a circle – rule over a majority of nations that no longer wanted to be a part of the Habsburg Empire by expansion and putting them against each other. Similar to what the hapless Anglo Empire has been doing lately. Get over your Habsburg worship, it just marks you as an ignoramus with poor education and latter-day romantic fantasies.

    I agree that WWI started the collapse of the European civilization. The fault lies fully with the idiots who run it at that time, incl. the Habsburgs. They were greedy and short-sighted. As the European leaders today, they picked pointless fights with each other, and prioritised national aggrandisement at the expense of smaller European nations. And the stupid colonialism.

    The problem is that Western elites have always disliked their eastern white cousins – whether Byzantium, Serbs, or today the Russians, a lot more than anything else. They will go demographically black-and-brown and slowly disappear because of that. And don’t fool yourself, when you scratch the open (public) Western elite’s hatred for Russia or Serbia, right under the surface is the hidden hatred for the others living there.

  404. This guy was a vile anti-Russian and anti-Serb:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Habsburg

  405. Simplistically speaking, R1a is a genetic marker for Slavs and Balts in eastern/southern Europe (there is another branch of R1A in Scandinavia). In Slavic countries about 40% or so of the people carry this marker

    The key word there is ‘simplistic‘. Two simple points: there is also women DNA that one should consider – it is more uniform and stable across the region than male DNA. And the ethnogenesis of Slavs, Balts, Magyars, Germans, etc… followed by a few hundred or thousand years the emergence of R1A, R1B or I2.

    My theory is that I2 mixed with R1A in the southern part of the Ukrainian-Romanian steppe shortly after the last ice age, maybe 10k ago. That area was one of the refuges where humans lived during ice age. I2 people also lived in the Balkans, R1A was further east. When Slav languages split of from the IE language family (5k ago?), the main group in that ethnogenesis was R1A, with some I2, and later R1B, N, and others. There is no purity, we are all mixed.

    Magyars probably contained some R1A since they spread from the Volga-Ural through regions inhabited by some R1A Iranian speaking tribes, like Sarmatians. The fact that Magyars are heavily R1A also suggests that the Carpathian basin was inhabited by Slavs for a long time before they arrived. I think at least a part of the Slav ethnogenesis happened in the northern part of the Carpathian basin. That is exactly what ancient writers and Primary Chronicle said – that Slavs originally spread from the ‘middle Danube’. It would also explain the very heavy R1A presence among Magyars today.

  406. Don’t you just love exposing the ludicrousness of the Balkanoids? 🙂

    https://media.dyvys.info/2016/12/41e099532f-696×435.jpg

  407. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    None of that changes the fact that Habscuckia was a multicultural monstrosity (less extreme than today’s) and that there was no successful future for Tesla in it.

    Plus you also ignored my analogy of Tesla to Anatoly Karlin and how I debunked your garbage about your Croat pets.

    So, who cares Habscuck?

  408. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Lol Svidomy Monkeykranian.

    You’ve literally been volunteering as one of AK’s many Svidomy exposure tools for years.

  409. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg/1024px-Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg.png

    Simplistically speaking, R1a is a genetic marker for Slavs and Balts

    Therefore, even the most slavic nation, Poland is only half slavic and “true slavs” are thin on the ground elsevhere. Slavic cause is pretty much doomed.
    Thanks again for proving again the stupidity and pointlessness of “HBD science”.

  410. Who can ever forget Dr. Zhivago’s last ride on a tram? I don’t know how realistic the tram used is for early 20th century Moscow? A classic scene:

    https://youtu.be/XwYKYMAy6bk

  411. Everywhere else? Prague was a lot more civilised than Vienna when Habsburgs occupied it and suppressed Czechs for 300 years.

    They might teach some wishful things in Czech and Slovak schools. What do non-Czechoslovak sources say?

    Wiki says this about Hapsburg rule:

    “In 1526, the Bohemian estates elected Ferdinand I of the House of Habsburg. The fervent Catholicism of its members brought them into conflict in Bohemia, and then in Prague, where Protestant ideas were gaining popularity.[40] These problems were not pre-eminent under Holy Roman Emperor Rudolf II, elected King of Bohemia in 1576, who chose Prague as his home. He lived in the Prague Castle, where his court welcomed not only astrologers and magicians but also scientists, musicians, and artists. Rudolf was an art lover too, and Prague became the capital of European culture. This was a prosperous period for the city: famous people living there in that age include the astronomers Tycho Brahe and Johannes Kepler, the painter Arcimboldo, the alchemists Edward Kelley and John Dee, the poet Elizabeth Jane Weston, and others. ”

    This tells us that in terms of worldwide importance Prague peaked in the early years of Hapsburg rule.

    :::::::::

    Decline occured during subsequent religious wars, including an invasion by Swedes and Saxons, and further destruction at the hands of Prussia in the 18th century. After that, the city was revived and rebuilt under Hapsburgs. Britannica says:

    “The return of more settled conditions in central Europe was marked by renewed economic growth, and Prague’s population grew from 40,000 in 1705 to more than 80,000 by 1771. In 1784 the Old Town, the New Town, the Malá Strana, and the Hradčany complex were administratively united into one city. The merchants and the mostly German, Spanish, and Italian nobility who were active in and around Prague in this period had an enormous effect on both architecture and cultural life. Outstanding architects created magnificent palaces and gardens, and churches in the Prague version of the Baroque style sprang up throughout the city.”

    Pragues’ second peak occured in late Hapsburg rule. This is when it produced Kafka, Dvorak.

    After that – obscurity, and a nice tourist place where people can come to admire things built under Hapsburgs or the under the German family that preceded them.

    Same for northern Italy that Habsburgs joyfully exploited in between occasional mass murders of the locals – check out what they did to Milano in 1848.

    And yet somehow, Hapsburg Italy is the most civilized and prosperous part of Italy. The pattern is quite clear:

    Hapsburg Poland and Ukraine are the most civilized and pleasant parts of those countries.

    Czechia, where Hapsburg rule was more direct, more civilized than Slovakia where Hapsburg influence was mediated by the Hungarians.

    Hapsburg Transylvania – most civilized and most pleasant region in Romania.

    Slovenia – more civilized than Croatia, which is more civilized than Serbia.

    I agree that WWI started the collapse of the European civilization. The fault lies fully with the idiots who run it at that time, incl. the Habsburgs. They were greedy and short-sighted.

    The fault for the Austrian-Serb war lies with elements of the Serbian state responsible for the assassination of the Austrian heir to the throne (Serbs had murdered their own king beforehand). The fault for this becoming a world war lies with Russia, for supporting the regicidal Serbs and going to war on their behalf. The result of this war was that European civilization was turned over to the Anglo-Americans, who wrecked it. Naturally Wilson was adamant about eliminating Hapsburg and creating Czechoslovakia and other useless nation states. Idiotic European nationalists all played their role but if not for this war, things could have turned out very differently, there was still a chance.

  412. A “genetic marker” for something doesn’t mean that every single person carries it. Your comment is meaningless.

  413. that Habscuckia was a multicultural monstrosity

    Nationalism and communism combined to kill tens of millions of Europeans; there are proabably a couple hundred million fewer Europeans in the world today due to these ideas.

    It figures that dumb Balkanoids like both of them.

  414. Such a “vile” guy also opposed Nazism and Bolshevism in Europe.

    These parts from wiki were interesting:

    “He obtained the support of Winston Churchill for a conservative “Danube Federation”, in effect a restoration of Austria-Hungary, but Joseph Stalin put an end to these plans”

    ” In 1961, Spanish caudillo Francisco Franco offered to make him king of Spain after his own death, which Otto declined.”

  415. If he had grown up in Serbia he would have at most been a parish priest or something.

    Nah. Even the illiterate Miloš Obrenović (ruled from 1830) sponsored Serb education, in particular sending yearly gold sum to Serbs living in Austrian Empire and sponsoring their educational, cultural and economic associations.
    Since Serbs who lived in Habsburg lands were of higher education and more European, they were invited to Principality to teach and modernize the backward Ottoman province.
    As early as 1833, he opened the first gymnasium teaching in national language in the Balkans.
    In 1838, Lyceum, precursor to Belgrade University was founded – initially Philosophy and Law were taught, but by 1853 technical and natural sciences were studied as well – all in Serbian.

    In the second half of 19th century the state sponsored talented pupils and students for their study travels and education in Vienna, Graz, Prague, Paris Universities – these graduates formed the core of national political and educational elite. Tesla wouldn’t have fared any worse if he were born in Serbia – in fact, he would have been granted scholarship instead of having to work to support himself, and his relatives would be more numerous due to not being in range of Croat knives.

    Now name significant Slovenian and Croat contributions to the world.

  416. Habsburgs were dealt perfect cards in 1520s.
    They utterly failed over the following centuries.
    Inbreeding is bad, nepotism and corruption are bad, zealotry is bad.

    One just has to look at their warring and generalship record from 1550 to 1918 and compare it to resources, population and power they wielded.

    Mourning the fall of such incompetent and backward dynasty (yes, they were reactionary and allowed previously inferior rivals to overtake them) seems bizarre.

  417. Greeks are generally not considered to be Balkanoids.

    What exactly makes you say that, though? After all, it seems like you are cherry-picking here to get worse results for Balkanoids.

    I’m too lazy to make the calculation. However the most populous Balkan country, Romania, has an average IQ of 89 on according to the paper. I also forgot to add Albania with its 81. If you weighed the average by population I suspect you’d get an average of around 89 among Balkanoids.

    OK, but I’d still like to know why Greece is excluded here. What exactly makes you so confident in saying that Greeks aren’t Balkanoids?

    Have there been genetic studies that show that southern Croats, Bosnians, Serbs, Montenegrins, Albanians, Macedonians, Bulgarians, and Romanians form one genetic cluster and Greeks form another, separate genetic cluster, or what?

    Also, is Romania actually in the Balkans? I mean, its average IQ is comparable to that of the Balkans but I thought that the Balkans ended at the Danube River.

    They weren’t tested young compared to Western countries, just younger than the Eastern European countries. A better question – why were the eastern Europeans tested so late? Did the authorities want better scores?

    That’s certainly an interesting question.

  418. In the second half of 19th century the state sponsored talented pupils and students for their study travels and education in Vienna, Graz, Prague, Paris Universities

    Places under Hapsburgs.

    Now name significant Slovenian and Croat contributions to the world.

    Tesla is unique, an outlier.

  419. Habsburg/Austrian Empire was not multicultural in modern, strict sense.
    It was a feudal realm comprising several distinct lands with their own laws, ruled and administered by overwhelmingly German and Germanized elite that dominated all spheres – military, economy, religion. The subjects were mostly non-German and wielded no political power nor had any representation.
    It is most unfortunate that Russians came to the rescue of Habsburgs during Hungarian uprising.
    The ruler and his cabinet who managed to cause uprisings both in Vienna and by Hungarians deserved to fall.

  420. It figures that dumb Balkanoids like both of them.

    Well, a lot of Ukrainians also like nationalism and as far as I know 35% of Ukrainians regret that the Soviet Union collapsed and broke up.

    Hapsburg Poland and Ukraine are the most civilized and pleasant parts of those countries.

    Actually, the parts of Poland that used to belong to Germany are at least comparable to the formerly Hapsburg parts of Poland. I remember showing you a map of literacy in Poland in 1931 that showed that urban areas in formerly Hohenzollern and formerly Hapsburg Poland were comparable in their literacy rates but that rural areas in formerly Hohenzollern Poland (even those that had few Germans in them) were higher than literacy rates in formerly Hapsburg Poland.

    For that matter, in 1953, formerly Hohenzollern Poland contained a huge part of Poland’s railroads:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_A_and_B

    The result of this war was that European civilization was turned over to the Anglo-Americans, who wrecked it. Naturally Wilson was adamant about eliminating Hapsburg and creating Czechoslovakia and other useless nation states. Idiotic European nationalists all played their role but if not for this war, things could have turned out very differently, there was still a chance.

    Actually, Wilson initially wanted to preserve A-H but to reform it. This is why his Fourteen Points didn’t call for the break-up of A-H. What apparently changed Wilson’s mind was his (and perhaps other people’s) belief that a surviving A-H would be a satellite state of Germany and that thus destroying German power means destroying A-H.

    As for Czechoslovakia, had the Nazis never come to power in Germany, it would have likely been a developed country by now–perhaps comparable to France or Britain in GDP PPP per capita. AFAIK, Weimar Germany had no beef with Czechoslovakia–unlike with Poland, against whom it waged a years-long economic war in an attempt to get Poland to give up the Polish Corridor.

  421. The fault for the Austrian-Serb war lies with elements of the Serbian state responsible for the assassination of the Austrian heir to the throne (Serbs had murdered their own king beforehand). The fault for this becoming a world war lies with Russia, for supporting the regicidal Serbs and going to war on their behalf. The result of this war was that European civilization was turned over to the Anglo-Americans, who wrecked it. Naturally Wilson was adamant about eliminating Hapsburg and creating Czechoslovakia and other useless nation states. Idiotic European nationalists all played their role but if not for this war, things could have turned out very differently, there was still a chance.

    Was there really no other choice for the Hapsburgs but to invade Serbia? I mean, Serbia itself purged the Black Hand and executed Apis in 1917.

    It does seem like a bit hypocritical for the Hapsburgs to start a war only to subsequently whine about what happened as a result of them losing this war.

    Also, Europe nowadays is even more fragmented than it was in 1919 but also much more stable than it was in 1919. This suggests that a strong US presence (including having a powerful US military) in Europe after 1919 might have been able to maintain the peace in Europe after the end of World War I–or at the very least to prevent the Fall of France in 1940, which would have likely ensured that western Poland, Czechoslovakia, eastern Germany, Hungary, Romania, and the Balkan countries would not have become Communist. The Fall of France really was very devastating for both Jews and Eastern Europeans.

  422. The map here shows that Greeks are often, but not always, included in definitions of the Balkans:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans

    That said, though, I would include Greeks unless there was strong evidence that Greeks are significantly genetically distinct from all other Balkanoids while all other Balkanoids have much less genetic differences with each other.

  423. After that – obscurity, and a nice tourist place where people can come to admire things built under Hapsburgs or the under the German family that preceded them.

    I thought that Prague also prospered under the Czechoslovaks up to 1938?

  424. Simpleguest says

    “Tesla is unique, an outlier.”

    Not that I have a dog in this fight, but no, Tesla is not quite alone.

    There are also Mihajlo Pupin and Milutin Milankovic (Milankovic cycles explaining Earth long term climate changes caused by changes in earth’s axis eccentricity) . “Google” them for more on their scientific and technological contributions.

    Interestingly, all three were Serbs, born in Austro-Hungary, that achieved professional prominence by working and living in USA.

    I was wondering if you could give examples of personalities of Ukrainian descent that had the same advantage of being born in what was then Austro-Hungary (say in Galicia), that have managed to achieve the same prominence as these three Serbs.

  425. Serbia was pro-Habsburg until 1903 regime change, a de facto Austrian client – Russians focused on Bulgaria due to Mediterranean/Aegean port possibility and Constantinople/throwing the Turks out of Europe goal.
    It was Austria that threatened Bulgaria to accept peace in 1885 war with Serbia.
    Serbs in Austro-Hungary were pro-Austrian and anti-Hungarian post-1849.

    The braindead narrative spread post-WW1 is part of Yugoslav/Freemason anti-German propaganda. My obnoxious compatriot fell for it, in addition to glorifying Apis and scum associated with him.
    Serbs were goaded to fight German national and geopolitical interests to their own detriment, on two separate occasions, with 1903 regicide being classical regime/sphere change. And as you already wrote – both times it was Angloatlanticists who pulled the strings – Serbs were to be utilized as sabots thrown in the gears of German machine.
    That the Serbs would end up destroyed was of no concern – in fact, the British were counting and building on it.

    Serbs were privileged in Habsburg lands since 1530s, getting various benefits and Emperor-signed Privilegia ratified by successive Emperors – they were not serfs, local nobles had no power over them and owed no labor or service to them.

    A quality discussion on the subject surpasses the scope of Internet forum.

  426. Simpleguest says

    One could argue that Greek mentality epitomizes the essence of the Balkans.

  427. I was wondering if you could give examples of personalities of Ukrainian descent that had the same advantage of being born in what was then Austro-Hungary (say in Galicia), that have managed to achieve the same prominence as these three Serbs.

    Well, there was this guy, but he was Jewish rather than Ukrainian:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isidor_Isaac_Rabi

    US historian Geoffrey Wawro is originally of Ukrainian descent (I believe from Galicia–with either his grandfather or great-grandfather moving from there to the US), though:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Wawro

  428. How so?

  429. Simpleguest says

    Have you heard of the Byzantine Empire?

  430. Habsburg/Austrian Empire was not multicultural in modern, strict sense. It was a feudal realm comprising several distinct lands with their own laws, ruled

    Correct. It was a traditional Christian place, based not on demonic nationalism (as was Germany) or on modern self-negaton, but on older ideals.

    It is telling that Hitler wanted to hunt down and kill Otto von Hapsburg, while Franco offered him Spain’s throne.

    ruled and administered by overwhelmingly German and Germanized elite that dominated all spheres – military, economy, religion

    Not correct.

    The subjects were mostly non-German and wielded no political power nor had any representation.

    Also not correct.

  431. Yep.

  432. Correct. It was a traditional Christian place, based not on demonic nationalism (as was Germany) or on modern self-negaton, but on older ideals.

    Why exactly was Germany based on demonic nationalism? I mean, Yes, there was Hitler, but what about before him? I mean, Imperial Germany certainly tried to assimilate its minorities, but it also allowed them to have representation in their parliament (as well as to express themselves there).

  433. It is telling that Hitler wanted to hunt down and kill Otto von Hapsburg, while Franco offered him Spain’s throne.

    Which, again, is why I am skeptical of the possibility of any alliance between Nazi Germany and Austria-Hungary during WWII if the latter would have somehow managed to survive WWI. Too much bad blood between the two of them.

  434. “Tesla is unique, an outlier.”

    Not that I have a dog in this fight, but no, Tesla is not quite alone. There are also Mihajlo Pupin and Milutin Milankovic (Milankovic cycles explaining Earth long term climate changes caused by changes in earth’s axis eccentricity) .

    Pupin and Milankovic are not close to Tesla. They are not household names in the world.

    But as you point out, the high achieving Serbs were the ones who were raised in Austria-Hungary. Pupin came ot America at age 16, but Milankovic studied at the University of Vienna.

    I was wondering if you could give examples of personalities of Ukrainian descent that had the same advantage of being born in what was then Austro-Hungary (say in Galicia), that have managed to achieve the same prominence as these three Serbs

    As Tesla – no one. Nor has any Romanian, any Hungarian, Slovak, Portuguese, etc.

    As for the other two second-tier scientists:

    This guy discovered the X-ray before Roentgen:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Puluj

    He was defended in his claim by a Serbian collegaue.

    This guy invented ant-reflective lense coatings:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olexander_Smakula

    This guy was born in Galicia after Austria-Hungary fell but without him there would be no personal computers:

    https://www.ualberta.ca/newtrail/autumn2012/features/lubomyrromankiw

  435. Actually, the parts of Poland that used to belong to Germany are at least comparable to the formerly Hapsburg parts of Poland. I remember showing you a map of literacy in Poland in 1931 that showed that urban areas in formerly Hohenzollern and formerly Hapsburg Poland were comparable in their literacy rates but that rural areas in formerly Hohenzollern Poland (even those that had few Germans in them) were higher than literacy rates in formerly Hapsburg Poland.

    Krakow is better than any former German cities, and in additon Polish Galicia is conservative and Catholic, voting the right way. It is also generally less criminal:

    Crime in Poland:

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Crime-vulnerability-index-in-the-years-2010-2013-Index-for-Poland_fig10_323018273

  436. The German Empire was a nationalistic project. It was the German nationalist foil to Austria-Hungary which was based on older, more tradtional, healthier, and better ideals.

    To be sure, the German Empire was better than its Western enemies. It at least had a real monarchy. But it was compromised.

  437. Krakow is better than any former German cities,

    How so?

    Also, Wroclaw is pretty nice, no?

    and in additon Polish Galicia is conservative and Catholic, voting the right way. It is also generally less criminal:

    How do the major Polish parties differ from each other? I thought that both were largely anti-migrant (and especially anti-Muslim).

    I checked the criminality data and you appear to be correct in regards to this. I do wonder why, though. I mean, the formerly German parts of Poland are not Poland’s poorest areas:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Polish_voivodeships_by_GRP_per_capita#/media/File:Polish_voivodeships_by_GRP_(PPS)_per_capita_in_2015.png

    Did the more criminal-minded Poles move there, and if so, why?

    BTW, one thing that I found interesting is that the ex-German parts of Poland also had some of the highest crime rates in the German Empire over a century ago:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Meyers_b18_s0533a.jpg

    Bavaria also had some highly criminal areas back then and I don’t know why either.

  438. Also, this map might be of interest to you, AP:

    https://i.redd.it/q54giroed3i11.png

    What’s interesting about this map is that it shows that the Germans (and northern Slovenes) in Austria-Hungary married at relatively high ages, Czechs, southern Slovenes, Italians, Dalmatians/southern Croats, Poles, and urban Hungarians at intermediate ages, and Ukrainians, Romanians, rural Hungarians, and northern Croats at young ages.

    It’s not a perfect correlation, but it’s possible that people within the Hajnal Line evolved a bit differently than people outside the Hajnal Line:

    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2014/03/10/big-summary-post-on-the-hajnal-line/

    Czechs and the other people who married at intermediate ages might be viewed as being in a Hajnal “gray zone”–not fully within the Hajnal Line but also not completely outside of the Hajnal Line.

  439. The German Empire was a nationalistic project. It was the German nationalist foil to Austria-Hungary which was based on older, more tradtional, healthier, and better ideals.

    The German Empire also ended up being more accomplished, more industrialized, and more powerful than Austria-Hungary ended up, no?

    Also, are you sure that having a lot of diversity is a good thing? I’ve heard of Robert Putnam’s research that might suggest that diversity (or at least a lot of diversity) could decrease social trust. Given that Poland had problems dealing with its Ukrainian and Jewish minorities in the interwar era, I’m not sure that having A-H survive would have been an unequivocally good thing. I mean, it would have been better than having WWI occur, but if there was a way to have A-H collapse and break up peacefully, I’m not sure that this would have been the worst thing in the world.

    Interestingly enough, there don’t appear to be any large-scale calls to bring back A-H right now.

    To be sure, the German Empire was better than its Western enemies. It at least had a real monarchy. But it was compromised.

    Frankly, I’m anti-monarchist due to it being contrary to egalitarian and meritocratic principles. The US managed to do just fine in spite of it being a republic–as did Switzerland and France.

  440. he fault for the Austrian-Serb war lies with elements of the Serbian state responsible..

    .

    Oh really? Only then you need the same standards for all. Tell me what to do in Vienna (in 1914) Leon Trotsky? Both Germany and Austria supported terrorism, so their claims against the Serbs are pure hypocrisy.
    PMV unleashed (absolutely consciously) the Habsburgs and the Hohenzollerns. All the blame for the war lies entirely on them.

  441. And yet somehow, Hapsburg Italy is the most civilized and prosperous part of Italy. The pattern is quite clear

    It is amazing to what level of idiocy a person can reach in a propaganda frenzy. We have already read how the Habsburgs-philanthropists brought civilization to the Czech Kingdom after the battle of the White Mountain (when the Czech nobility and clergy were exterminated – an outstanding example of the “beneficence” of the Habsburgs). But it turns out that Northern Italy also owes everything to the Austrians! But Switzerland is unlucky – this country has escaped the yoke of the Habsburgs, and for that Switzerland is so impoverished and backward. All because the Habsburgs could not bring civilization to Switzerland.

  442. Simpleguest says

    “As Tesla – no one. Nor has any Romanian, any Hungarian, Slovak, Portuguese, etc.”

    I take it you concede that Serbs have outstripped Ukrainians.

    “As for the other two second-tier scientists:”

    This is from Wikipedia about Pupin”

    “Michael I. Pupin was a Serbian American physicist, physical chemist, philanthropist and patriot. Pupin is best known for his numerous patents, including a means of greatly extending the range of long-distance telephone communication by placing loading coils (of wire) at predetermined intervals along the transmitting wire (known as “pupinization”). Pupin was a founding member of National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA) on 3 March 1915, which later became NASA.[5] In 1924, he won a Pulitzer Prize for his autobiography. Pupin was elected president or vice-president of the highest scientific and technical institutions, such as the American Institute of Electrical Engineers, the New York Academy of Sciences, the Radio Institute of America, and the American Association for the Advancement of Science.”

    And Milankovic:

    “Milanković gave two fundamental contributions to global science. The first contribution is the “Canon of the Earth’s Insolation”, which characterizes the climates of all the planets of the Solar system. The second contribution is the explanation of Earth’s long-term climate changes caused by changes in the position of the Earth in comparison to the Sun, now known as Milankovitch cycles. This explained the ice ages occurring in the geological past of the Earth, as well as the climate changes on the Earth which can be expected in the future.”

    I am sorry, but your examples don’t even come close (I would disregard the x-ray guy until he is officially recognized).

  443. But it turns out that Northern Italy also owes everything to the Austrians! But Switzerland is unlucky – this country has escaped the yoke of the Habsburgs, and for that Switzerland is so impoverished and backward. All because the Habsburgs could not bring civilization to Switzerland.

    Likewise, Belgium became a total dump after the Hapsburgs lost it. Oh wait!

  444. Anounder says

    Frankly, I’m anti-monarchist due to it being contrary to egalitarian and meritocratic principles.

    So you’re a liberal.

    The US managed to do just fine in spite of it being a republic–as did Switzerland and France.

    The US had a civil war over getting to own Negroes and is 56% White. The French Revolution was a bloodbath with its degeneracy alive well into modernity (see the modern French cucking themselves to death). Swizterland is far smaller than both and managed to maintain a certain level of segregation among its populations.

  445. Stop this debate, the question what Slavic country is the greatest had been answered.
    It is Poland.
    The land of the biggest garden gnome of the world.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Solus-bigges-gnom-poland05.jpg

  446. “As Tesla – no one. Nor has any Romanian, any Hungarian, Slovak, Portuguese, etc.”

    I take it you concede that Serbs have outstripped Ukrainians.

    There is a single Serb outlier who outstripped anyone from many nations.

    Lucky thing he was trained in Austria.

    But it’s only one person, one can’t conclude anything about a people from such an outlier.

    I am sorry, but your examples don’t even come close (I would disregard the x-ray guy until he is officially recognized)

    They are all people unknown by the general population. And the x-ray guy certainly suprasses those.

    He is recognized here:

    https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(11)63573-8/pdf

    He is recognized for first proposing using X-rays for medical purposes.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=ej9oAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=puluj+recognized&source=bl&ots=pWQ7bMZbIS&sig=ACfU3U0YZZoFkuwLiHg6UxK_ekSQ8SGjzw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjAuuLM7bLjAhUVCM0KHZCvBbM4ChDoATAJegQIBxAB#v=onepage&q=puluj%20recognized&f=false

    That is at least as significant as the work of those Serbian gentlemen.

  447. We have already read how the Habsburgs-philanthropists brought civilization to the Czech Kingdom after the battle of the White Mountain

    Prague achieved its most important global status under Hapsburgs, yes or no?

    Bohemia peaked again under Hapsburgs when it produced Kafka and Dvorak, yes or no?

    When you actually consider facts the truth is clear.

    But it turns out that Northern Italy also owes everything to the Austrians!

    They certainly didn’t harm it.

    Hapsburg Italy:

    https://www.themaparchive.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/b9d24ee63e043d9dae72d8cfeefe8ff8/a/x/ax01832.jpg

    Italian incomes:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmsAvnxWcAEYnIJ.jpg

    I know, I know – it’s a magical coincidence.

  448. Oh really? Only then you need the same standards for all. Tell me what to do in Vienna (in 1914) Leon Trotsky? Both Germany and Austria supported terrorism, so their claims against the Serbs are pure hypocrisy.

    Wasn’t sent from Austria to Russia, nor was he employed by the Austrian government.

    Lenin was sent to Germany, after Russia supported Serb regicides first. So situations were not comparable.

  449. Hyperborean says

    As is clear, Piedmontese, Ligurians and Aostans benefited very much from Hapsburg rule.

  450. Average IQ differences probably largely explain this gap. Or are you suggesting that living under Hapsburg rule caused northern Italians to evolve a higher average IQ?

  451. Lenin was sent to Germany,

    To Germany or by Germany?

  452. LOL! The Poles have that gnome but at least we have Gnome Chompsky!

  453. Trotsky was employed by Austrians as early as 1912, producing fake news and propaganda on Balkan Alliance’s war against Turks.
    Afterwards, he turned his attention on Serbia when second Balkan war started, pulled the string of a Serbian communist Dimitrije Tucović and both of them fabricated narratives of mass Serb war crimes and reporting on events they were nowhere near, let alone witnessed (Trotsky was in Sofia).

    The traitorous dog Tucović was drafted and got killed fighting against his masters, Austrians. Really, what amused me most was reading how “social democrats” and “social revolutionaries” were surprised that their German ideological “brothers” turned out to be pro-war, explicitly nationalist and not at all in favour of “liberation” and “international worker solidarity” while their Serbian counterparts sabogated Serbian war effort in Balkan wars and prevented Serbia from stabilising and even voting a budget in 1914.

    Social democrats, socialists, communists have always been useful idiots or bona fide traitors in Slavic countries. It was just last year that the traitorous scum was exhumed from a central roundabout in Belgrade and transferred to a cemetary – this is what a century of hostile, occupation rule imposes – veneration of traitors and foreign agents. Hopefully, one day the Croat communist dictator will be exhumed and transfered to his homeland.

  454. Veneto, Liguria, Lombardy were the wealthiest regions of medieval Europe – Venice and Genoa controlled the entire Oriental trade, Lombardy had all relevant manufactories and crafts, in addition to best plate armourers in Europe.
    It has nothing to do with Habsburgs and their rulership.

  455. It might have to do with average IQ, though.

  456. Anounder says

    You’re talking to a Soviet apologist.

  457. It certainly meant that the Hapsburgs didn’t harm those regions.

    In contrast, wealthiest pre-British parts of India became poorest under/after British rule.

  458. Mitleser says

    Britain’s Entente existed in the first place because the Central Powers were less relevant to the British Empire than the Franco-Russian alliance. Russian growing military power does not change that.

  459. Would Russia have actually been willing to make the necessary compromises to renew the 1907 Anglo-Russian Entente in 1915, though?

  460. It certainly meant that the Hapsburgs didn’t harm those regions.

    Did the Romanovs harm the Baltic states? Did the Hohenzollerns economically (as opposed to politically) harm the Poles?

    In contrast, wealthiest pre-British parts of India became poorest under/after British rule.

    Which Indian parts were the wealthiest before the British arrived in India?

  461. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Your take on Communists, Socialists and Liberals being traitors is accurate. So is the take on the outrageous anti-Serb propaganda during the Balkan Wars. Of course, it served to justify creating Albania besides demonizing Serbs.

    Still, I think it would be better to repurpose the Tito mausoleum into a monument to Croat-Communist terror endured by Serbs. That is, in a similar manner to how the Skull Tower near Nis was deliberately kept as a leftover from the Ottoman Empire to serve as a monument to Turk terror.

  462. Again, the areas that were Hapsburg for the longest time are the best in Italy.

    #Austriae est imperare orbi universo

  463. Did the Romanovs harm the Baltic states?

    They weren’t states under Romanovs, but no.

    Did the Hohenzollerns economically (as opposed to politically) harm the Poles?

    Probably not.

    In contrast, wealthiest pre-British parts of India became poorest under/after British rule.

    Which Indian parts were the wealthiest before the British arrived in India?

    Bengal.

  464. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    There are many problematic facts about you claiming that I’ve fallen for Yugoslav/freemason propaganda against Germans and that the Kaeadjordjevic dynasty ruined Serbia with its errors while the Obrenovic dynasty made Serbia prosper. I would counter that you are being naively too pro-German and especially pro-Austrian/Habs.

    I’ve already stated that I’m strongly anti-Yugoslav and Yugoslavia. Any Serb that’s pro-Yugoslavia deserves to get killed by Croats, Slovenians and Muslims. I’m still undecided and unsure about Freemasonry.

    What makes APIS (Dragutin Dimitrijevic) scum? Assassinating the bald cuck (The word is objectively appropriate in this case) Aleksandr Obrenovic who married a sterile whore? What about APIS’s contributions to the struggle for South Serbia and Macedonia plus his significant role in intelligence and planning during the two Balkan Wars? APIS was a man who graduated military academy with distinction. He just made a strategic error by assassinating Franz.

    Britain was actually pro-Aleksander Obrenovic, by the way. Britain actually cut diplomatic ties and even placed economic sanction on Serbia from 1903-1905 because of the May coup. Were they simply pretending to be bothered by the coup? They were literally more bothered by it than anyone else.

    As for Austria-Hungary pressuring Bulgaria to make peace with Serbia after the failed Serbian attack in 1885, they did it not because they were pro-Serb, but because they were obsessed with preventing a strong Balkan state emerging. If Serbia had somehow managed to succeed against Bulgaria, AH would’ve just as easily threatened Serbia to back down. It’s naive to think that they would let Serbia conquer Bulgaria. Plus, what about the Habs sabotaging Serbia in 1848 by tricking them out of Vojvodina and forcing the Serb principality to back down with its volunteers? What about the 1878 Berlin Congress where AH pressured aggressively against the Balkans and Russia plus went even so far as to annex Bosnia and Old Raska (Sandzak) in order to block Serb-Montenegro union? What about the Habs having a decisive role in creating Albania in 1913 and trying to sabotage Serbian victory in the 1st Balkan War?

    The Habs were sabotaging Serbs at every opportunity they got from 1848-1914. They had a chance in the 18th century to have Serbia and Serbs as loyal subjects. They released the Kingdom of Serbia as a client state from Turks in the early 18th century. Still, because of their effeminate cowardice, they literally ditched the Serbs and put them at the “mercy” of the Turks in 1739 when the first inconvenient moment came about. Plus, they only granted priviliges to Serbs because they needed them to fight Turks and other enemies. They were more than eager to abolish those privileges many times which they eventually fully did when they abolished the military frontier in 1881. They didn’t have issues with allowing the Vatican and Croat-Magyar nobles to have their way with Serbs under Austrian rule, besides when they needed Serb support.

    As for the anti-German propaganda, it mostly comes from the Communists who over-exaggerated the evils of German occupation with the Kragujevac and Kraljevo massacres. They did this in order to vent Serb anger at being mass murdered in WW2 onto Germans, while allowing the much worse Croats and Muslims to get away with their role through the doctrine of, “Brotherhood and Unity” (Yugoslav version of “Diversity is our greatest strength”). Still, even though the Germans were better than the Austrians and Habs, they still allowed the Croats and Muslims to mass murder Serbs in WW2. While some Germans had respect and were sympathetic to Serbs, Hitler wasn’t. It honestly makes more sense to be pro-Italian (minus Vatican and Venice) since they did something to save Serbs from being genocidded in WW2. Regardless, the Karadjordjevic regent, Prince Paul, signed the Anti-Comintern Pact in 1941 and gave the Germans military access. The air force coup traitors and idiot protesters had nothing to do with the Karadjordjevic’s. Of course, hating on Germans and even Austrians today is pointless.

    You are being naively pro Obrenovic and Habs. If it were up to them, the Turks would still be in the Balkans beyond Thrace and Constantinople. The Habs never felt any need to fight Turks besides when the Turks were an existential threat. Still, we would forever have been a servant people of the Habs and Austrians with the other part of Serbs still being ruled over by Turks. There was nothing exceptional about the Karadjordjevic and Black Hand mission to break AH and free Serb lands besides it being the back plot of WW1 and the horrible failure with Yugoslavia in 1919. The Germans, Italians and even Romanians did similar things against the Habs (minus assassinations) and were all very successful. The Romanians could’ve just as easily failed by forming a multicultural union with the Hungarians in 1919 but fortunately for them, they didn’t. Instead, they secured themselves for good and only have minor problems now.

    The horrible failure of forming Yugoslavia instead of a larger Serbia in 1919 cursed us to join the club of nations with aborted national projects and genocide victims such as Greece and Armenia. Our failure is probably more pathetic and embarrassing than their failures, but it is what it is. Neither we nor anyone else can change history, no matter how much we may like. Hating the Karadjordjevic dynasty for that mistake is pointless as the Obrenovic dynasty could just as easily have done so as well if they were in a similar position. Plus, Zivojin Music warned everyone but nobody listened. Literally no one besides him was conscious of how great a mistake Yugoslavia instead of a larger Serbia in 1919 was.

  465. after Russia supported Serb regicides first

    It’s just a blatant lie.

    But then
    in Vienna (In 1881), was a nihilistic Banquet hosted on the occasion of the St. Petersburg event ( killing Alexander II by the terrorists ). Pronounced toasts to “the success achieved in St. Petersburg.…”
    https://www.e-reading.club/chapter.php/35881/30/Lyashenko_-_Aleksandr_II%2C_ili_Istoriya_treh_odinochestv.html

    Both Germany and Austria had a long history of supporting terrorism, and their “noble resentment” against “terrorist” Serbia was only a veil to start a war

  466. reiner Tor says

    after Russia supported Serb regicides first

    It’s just a blatant lie.

    Why is it a lie? The organizers of the murder were well connected in the Serbian government (absent fortune teller abilities, the Habsburg government couldn’t tell that the Serbs would three years later purge them), and Russia clearly supported Serbia.

    “in Vienna (In 1881), was a nihilistic Banquet hosted on the occasion of the St. Petersburg event ( killing Alexander II by the terrorists ). Pronounced toasts to “the success achieved in St. Petersburg.…”

    I cannot speak Russian, and so cannot vouch for the quality of your source, but I’d be quite surprised if the banquet was held by officials or members of the Habsburg dynasty. But who knows?

    Anyway, while it’d be certainly quite deplorable on the part of those organizing and participating in it, it’s still quite different from materially supporting terrorists.


    I don’t really get why you guys cannot accept the following simple situation:

    • heir to the Austrian-Hungarian throne was murdered
    • his murder was organized by members of Serbian intelligence

    • under such circumstances, great powers at the time simply couldn’t accept anything but thorough self-humiliation from a small neighbor; do you think the UK or Russia or France would’ve demanded anything less than what Austria-Hungary demanded? do you think they wouldn’t have gone to war?

    • Russia, by supporting Serbia, essentially wanted to humiliate Austria-Hungary (by forcing it to back down), and was willing to risk a continental war

    Now, with hindsight, we can clearly say that the Austrian-Hungarian leadership would probably have been better (or certainly not worse) off by simply accepting humiliation in that case. (Especially since Franz Ferdinand wasn’t very popular, especially not in Hungary.) Therefore, Austria-Hungary is clearly one of the powers to be blamed here. But certainly not some supervillain.


    If you want to blame Austria-Hungary or especially the Habsburgs, you should blame the occupation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was, by the way, pretty unpopular in Hungary, though the pro-Habsburg Hungarian government managed to push it through the Hungarian parliament without a problem.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Berlin#Internal_opposition_to_Andr%C3%A1ssy's_objectives

    The occupation of Bosnia-Herzegovina was clearly a costly and idiotic mistake. Austria-Hungary became less stable as a result, and it led directly to the world war, which destroyed the empire. Though I’m not sure what would’ve been the best course, but maybe trying to placate Serbia by giving it Bosnia and Montenegro would’ve been a better choice.

  467. reiner Tor says

    Trotsky was employed by Austrians as early as 1912, producing fake news and propaganda on Balkan Alliance’s war against Turks.

    I’ve seen no evidence that he was employed by the Austrians. (In any event, as an enemy national, he had to flee Austria in 1914.) I think a much simpler explanation is that as a correspondent stationed in Sofia, he was simply reporting what he read in the Bulgarian press. Since in that war Bulgaria was attacked by all its neighbors, including Serbia, it’s pretty likely that the Bulgarian press simply printed out any unsubstantiated rumors or outright falsities which showed the Serbs in a bad light. Trotsky as a correspondent was then simply reporting these as “facts” without checking them himself. Not that he had the ability to check them.

    But even if he was a paid propagandist of the Austrians, how’s that even comparable to organizing terror attacks against royalty of other countries?

    Social democrats, socialists, communists have always been useful idiots or bona fide traitors in Slavic countries.

    As opposed to other countries, like in England, where they were outright spying for Soviet Russia.

    There’s this nationalist myth everywhere that leftists were nationalistic for the enemies, but not in the countries of the nationalists themselves. These myths have a large currency in Hungary (and, to be honest, for example Robert Fico, with his previous coalition with the Slovak National Party, seems to be more inclined to nationalism than Hungarian leftists), Germany (they were complaining that French socialists were very strongly intent on destroying Germany, whereas German social democrats… etc.), France (where they were complaining that the German social democrats were more nationalistic), and in most places.

    How nationalist social democrats were often depended on the situation, how popular they were (it was always easier for small fringe parties to be anti-nationalistic), how democratic the country in question was (where they had no chance of facing elections, they had no motivation to vote popular things), etc.

  468. reiner Tor says

    Serbia itself purged the Black Hand and executed Apis in 1917.

    After having realized the disaster they caused.

    Had Austria-Hungary backed down, wouldn’t it have strengthened the Black Hand’s position within Serbia?

    You can criticize Austria-Hungary for annexing or even occupying Bosnia (both were pretty idiotic things to do), but in 1914 they didn’t have many good choices. Yes, in retrospect, backing down and accepting humiliation would’ve been better, or at least no worse. But with what they knew in 1914, starting a war seemed like the lesser evil.

  469. …Prague achieved its most important global status under Hapsburgs, yes or no?

    No. Prague is at its best today. Previously, it was among top 5 cities in Europe in the 14.-15.th century – before Habsburgs and under local dynasties. Prague was the top cultural-business center north of the Alps in 14th century, it had the first university in the region. Under Habsburgs it was first destroyed in 30-year war and then oppressed for almost 300 years – taken over by foreign carpetbaggers, it lost its status.

    Prague suffered horribly under Habsburgs and German occupations: tens of thousands were murdered. Thank god it is forever in the past.

    By the way, Kafka was not a great writer, his mental post-modern confusion only appeals lost souls with no grounding in reality, but he was basically a loser who wrote absurd, silly texts that nobody actually reads. Even in small stuff, you betray bad judgment and a lack of actual critical knowledge.

    Northern Italy was more advanced then southern Italy for 1,000 years! Have you ever heard of Rennaissance? What you write is simply embarrassing – are you that mentally lost?

    Your views are babbling by a badly educated American exile-offspring who is yearning for meaning and relevancy, so you invent things based on not understanding much. How are the great Chicana mathematicians doing? In 1-2 generations your area will be non-European, the silly aping about Habsburgs is just a way for you to medicate yourself on your way to oblivion. The fact that under Habsburgs they built the first real buildings in Galicia is more a reflection on the backwardness of Galicia (it was Polish previous to that), than anything else.

  470. …with what they knew in 1914, starting a war seemed like the lesser evil.

    That’s not the way it played out – there was a huge amount of enthusiasm for the war among Austrian Germans in 1914 – even some Hungarians. There were public celebrations, marches, slogans like ‘on Beograd‘, Serb areas that were occupied were brutally treated with villagers murdered, etc…

    Any sign of opposition was suppressed by the Habsburg government, e.g. the whole Czech national leadership, including people who were members of the Parliament, was arrested and leaders sentenced to death – Habsburgs never had the balls to kill them, so they just kept them in prison.

    Slavic nations were about half of the population in the Habsburg Empire. They had no real rights or self-government – it was a brutal, colonial system in the middle of Europe. By the way, Romanians and Italians were treated the same. It was an ugly retrogade oppressive situation for more than half of the population in the Habsburg Empire.

    You claim that killing the tyrant, Franz Ferdinand, was ‘terrorism’. But was it? Franz Ferdinand was responsible as much as anyone else for the horrible situation: annexation of Bosnia, the ongoing oppression of the majority of population, etc… Was killing Heydrich in Prague in WWII also terrorism? Do actual people have any rights in your book? To send Ferdinand to prance around annexed Bosnia was a conscious provocation, and since when is killing an occupier a crime?

    We agree on the fatal mistake by Habsburgs when they annexed Bosnia. I would add one more: Habsburg’s inability to reign in Magyar nationalism. Habsburg Empire was a majority Slav country – to allow Magyars their silly ethno-posturing was a suicide. Not giving the majority nations any real self-government was what destroyed the Habsburg Empire. If not for Sarajevo, something else would trigger the collapse. The numbers were simply not there for a German-Magyar domination of the majority.

    (By the way Robert Fico in an alliance with nationalists is still effectively in charge of Slovakia. He runs the government.)

  471. reiner Tor says

    That’s not the way it played out – there was a huge amount of enthusiasm for the war among Austrian Germans in 1914 – even some Hungarians.

    After some propaganda, there was some enthusiasm (also among some German Germans, Russians, French, Britons), but recently it’s been challenged (the celebrating crowds were much smaller than claimed, the photographs were taken in a way to exaggerate their numbers), and anyway, it wasn’t the nationalistic crowds who made the decisions. The leadership of Austria-Hungary (and Germany) was basically thinking this:

    • they either go to war, or they get humiliated
    • getting humiliated will decrease their chances of attracting any allies later on

    • as it were, their enemies (mostly, Russia) were getting stronger and stronger by the day (so in a few years they will dominate them militarily)

    • if they could punish Serbia now, that would strengthen their positions in the Balkan, and in the Ottoman Empire (oil was just getting discovered there), giving them a chance for the next round

    • or if Russia and France joined in, they might have a chance of defeating them, and thus winning a general war

    They weren’t very enthusiastic about the situation, but those were their choices.

    Slavic nations were about half of the population in the Habsburg Empire. They had no real rights

    They had citizenship rights like everyone else. In the Austrian half, they had representatives in the Reichsrat, because in a complicated curia system each adult male citizen had a right to vote, though of course landowners and the nobility had a way stronger representation. There were regional diets as well, where Slavs did have real rights and representatives:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravian_Diet#Moravian_Compromise

    Croatia had autonomy.

    Romanians, of course, had equal rights, but they didn’t have many community rights (i.e. no autonomy, their rights to Romanian language education were gradually restricted, etc.), so their position wasn’t very good, but they were citizens, and they had representatives in the Hungarian Diet. (Though only a small percentage of the population had voting rights, which disproportionately punished non-Hungarians.)

    You can criticize Habsburgs, Hungarian nationalism or the whole system of dualism all right, but don’t say it was a colonial system, because it’s pretty far from it.

  472. reiner Tor says

    It’s interesting that Romanians in Hungary had a higher rate of literacy than in Romania proper.

  473. …don’t say it was a colonial system

    It depends on how we define a colonial system. In European context, in the early 20th century, not having any national rights (own education, representation, identity, maybe a federation, etc…) looked an awful lot like colonialism in many parts of the world: e.g. locals had extensive rights in both US and South America before independence.

    You repeat that all were ‘citizens’. That’s a very low bar – what would they be if 50% of Habsburg population would be denied even citizenship? The oppression varied among nations and regions, but the overall policy was to promote anything German-Austrian and after 1867 also anything Magyar. This was during the time of massive expansion of literacy, growth of a new economy, so the restrictions on group (national) rights were very severe – and self-defeating.

    Habsburgs lost and disappeared for a reason: they mis-managed it. Going to a stupid war in 1914 was just the last straw. If you get yourself into a situation, where a catastrophic war or humilation are your only choices – well, that is a definition of a failure to plan. Habsburgs could had done a few things previous to WWI:
    – control Magyar nationalistic tendencies and allow at least the same level of national equality in the Hungarian part of the Habsburg Empire, as there was in the Austrian part
    – don’t expand into Balkans – there was no way Habsburgs could absorb additional Slavic population
    – turn the Empire into a multi-part federation, in particular the Czechs, Poles, Italians, Romanians should had been given full local educational-language-self rule status
    – Slovaks were at that point so closely allied with Czechs, that some sort of unity between them, or linkage would had gone long way toward lowering the drive for independence – of course, that had to be done at the expense of Magyars and that was something Habsburgs were incapable of doing. So Franz Ferdinand died for that mistake.

    Nobody misses the Habsburg Empire: nice buildings, good music, lousy government structure. It failed, and things fail for a reason.

  474. In European context, in the early 20th century, not having any national rights (own education, representation, identity, maybe a federation, etc…) looked an awful lot like colonialism in many parts of the world:

    Poles and Ukrainians had their own educational systems in Galicia (they fought over expansion of Ukranan language).

    Are you claiming Czechs didn’t have educational system, representation, etc.?

    This was during the time of massive expansion of literacy

    ..in native languages. This is not colonialism.

  475. No. Prague is at its best today.

    I didn’t mean best place to live, but global importance.

    Previously, it was among top 5 cities in Europe in the 14.-15.th century – before Habsburgs and under local dynasties.

    Before Hapsburgs was a different German dynasty.

    I understand local Czech mythology says differently, that’s why I was interested in non-Czech sources.

    They say stuff like:

    “These problems were not pre-eminent under Holy Roman Emperor Rudolf II, elected King of Bohemia in 1576, who chose Prague as his home. He lived in the Prague Castle, where his court welcomed not only astrologers and magicians but also scientists, musicians, and artists. Rudolf was an art lover too, and Prague became the capital of European culture. This was a prosperous period for the city: famous people living there in that age include the astronomers Tycho Brahe and Johannes Kepler, the painter Arcimboldo, the alchemists Edward Kelley and John Dee, the poet Elizabeth Jane Weston, and others. ”

    It looks like a peak under Hapsbrugs.

    Prague was the top cultural-business center north of the Alps in 14th century,

    Not saying much, like Boston Philadelphia was largest city in the American wilderness in 1740.

    By the way, Kafka was not a great writer

    Didn’t claim he was. I just stated that globally most important figures from Bohemia, such as Kafka, or Dvorak, or Hasek, were nurtured under Hapsburgs.

    Even in small stuff, you betray bad judgment

    Your assumptions are indicative of bad judgment. As is your lack of gratitude to the Hapsburg monarchy.

    Your views are babbling by a badly educated American exile-offspring

    You were caught being wrong and reduce yourself to personal insults.

    In 1-2 generations your area will be non-European

    Nonsense. I don’t live in California or Texas. And those areas are getting half-European Christians anyways. Europe gets Muslims and Africans.

    How are the great Chicana mathematicians doing

    Presumably better than Slovak ones.

    The fact that under Habsburgs they built the first real buildings in Galicia

    How about Slovakia?

  476. murder was organized by members of Serbian intelligence

    “Never been proven that the Serbian government was directly involved in the conspiracy”
    Yevgeny Tarle “History of imperialism”

    As far as I know, for the past 90 years (after the publication of the “History of imperialism”), the evidence has not been found

    – Russia, by supporting Serbia, essentially wanted to humiliate Austria-Hungary (by forcing it to back down), and was willing to risk a continental war

    It’s just a lie

    Prince Lichnowsky, the German Ambassador in London…… writes: “Of course, one sign from Berlin was enough to make count Berchtold satisfied with a diplomatic success and solved the Serbian crisis, but this sign was not followed. On the contrary, (Austro-Hungary) was pushing for war… All the more strengthened the impression that we want war under any circumstances. Otherwise it is impossible to understand our behavior…. Persistent requests of Sazonov, even humiliated telegrams of the tsar, repeated proposals of sir Edward Grey, the warnings of the Marquis San Giuliano my persistent advice, nothing helped

    Anyway, while it’d be certainly quite deplorable on the part of those organizing and participating in it, it’s still quite different from materially supporting terrorists.

    Russian terorists received asylum in Germany/Austria, they received material support (at least from the German social Democrats), they freely printed Newspapers (with calls to terrorism), etc., etc. Jozef Pilsudski (100% terrorist) had direct material support from Austrian intelligence. quite different/s

  477. under such circumstances, great powers at the time simply couldn’t accept anything but thorough self-humiliation from a small neighbor; do you think the UK or Russia or France would’ve demanded anything less than what Austria-Hungary demanded? do you think they wouldn’t have gone to war?

    It is possible to give the exact answer. When in 1881 Alexander II was killed by terrorists, the terrorists behind this murder (who took refuge from the gallows in Europe) were considered heroes in Europe. They published articles in Newspapers about their “struggle for freedom”, public banquets were held in their honor, etc., etc. The terrorist Stepnyak-Kravchinsky who cut off the head to the police officer (having become the predecessor of “freedom fighters” from ISIS), lived in England and wrote books about how he committed terrorist attacks.

    Even Finland (as part of the Russian Empire) using the rights of autonomy, harbored accomplices of terror.
    Its wouldn’t have gone to war

  478. I’ll ask again–do you think that Hapsburg rule caused northern Italians to evolve a higher average IQ than southern Italians?

  479. Video explains this is a low floor tram. Not all passengers are cripples, but only a minority. So you only need part of the tram or seating to be low floor.

    Trams are not there mostly to entertain the tourists, but to transport passengers.

    Buildings are not there to entertain the tourists, but to create space for offices.

    So we should replace beautiful classical buildings, with modern glass boxes. Afterall, modern glass boxes can be more accessible for elderly and cripples than elaborate historical buildings.

  480. You asked a university dissertation question, without saying your own view on the topic.

    Then you declare my comment to be ignorant, when I mention how funny the question was.

    I also remember last time I replied in a detailed way on previous topics, you left the discussion without saying any reply.

    . I’ve noticed a lot of 90s revisionism in Russians of your generation, so I’m a bit curious about what they’re teaching you

    It’s nothing to do with “people of my generation” or “teaching” (I have not studied law or economics at university, which is why I would hope to be rewarded at least with a degree if I would respond to such question) .

    If you look at discussions of telecommunications industry, legal framework we have now, is regulated by laws of the early 1990s – and subsequent laws are just modifications of that framework. And yet, at the same time, international agencies actually somewhat commend the competitiveness of this industry in Russia. All this I have read – but you are free to read yourself, or alternatively, to disagree and write your own opinion.

  481. These are not photos, are videos, which my random curiosity found that night.

    You are free to search yourself for videos of e.g. “Belgrade students”, “Belgrade school”, “Novi sad students”, “Belgrade protests”, “Startups hub belgrade” etc, and to look at the videos you find.

    Unless you can explain that these are videos of schools, universities, or students, which are unrepresentative samples of the population (which is possible) – I assume this is what people of Serbia look like. (To me, it seems most similar to Italians, although maybe also Romania and some proportion of Hungary).

  482. Intuitively, it seems like the most over-achievement of Balkan people nowadays, is in sports.

    E.g. Djokovic and Croatian football.

  483. Why would that be case?

  484. Northern Italy was more advanced then southern Italy for 1,000 years! Have you ever heard of Rennaissance?

    I hope you have. Did you know that the Hapsburgs controlled northern Italy during much of the Renaissance?

    But – it is irrelevant. You made a stupid implication that Hapsburgs plundered or colonialized the parts of Italy they controlled. If that were the case, those parts of Italy would be..plundered, poor, etc. Instead, ex-Hapsburg Italy is the wealthiest part of Italy.

    Compare this to the effect of your beloved Soviets upon the places they controlled, like Czechoslovakia. This country fell behind places that were not occupied by Communists.

    From a post you were afraid to respond to:

    Austria saw a five-fold increase in per capita GDP from 1948 to 1989.

    So did Spain, which had experienced Franco’s rule during much of this time.

    But during this time Czechoslovakia, right next door, had only a three-fold increase.

    Not only did Czechs languish economically relative to those not under Communism, they also lived shorter lives.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_life_expectancy

    In 1950-1955, life expectancy in Austria was 66.50 while in Czechoslovakia it was 66.86. Czechs lived longer than Austrians. But in 1985-1990, life expectancy in Austria was 75 while in Czechoslovakia it was 71.46.

    In Spain life expectancy was 64.60 in 1950-1955. In 1985-1990 it was 76.85.

    So under Communism not only did Czechs become poorer than Spaniards and Austrians, they lived shorter lives than did Spaniards and Austrians. By years.

    Communism is an example of a, negative, harmful occupying force.

    :::::::::::::

    So under Hapsburgs whom you despise, a wealthy region remained wealthy and ahead of other regions. Under Communists whom you love, regions fell behind.

  485. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    #Austriae est imperare orbi universo = We wuz Kangz n shieeeeeeeeet

  486. We wuz Kangz n shieeeeeeeeet

    A good analogy of your various Serbian fantasies (original homeland of Slavs, settlers of Ukraine, etc.)

  487. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Lol, what’s wrong with nationalism Habscuck?

  488. Did you know that the Hapsburgs controlled northern Italy during much of the Renaissance?

    It’s a statement, absolute nonsense. Italian Renaissance – is 14-16 centuries. The greatest centers of the Renaissance are Florence, Venice and Rome. Spanish (not Austrian!) Habsburgs in the early 16th century took possession of southern Italy (the Kingdom of Sicilies and Kingdom of Naples)

    http://maplewebandpc.com/wp-content/uploads/17-map-of-renaissance-italy.jpg

    and the Duchy of Milan. The domination of the Spanish Habsburgs in these lands of Italy historians characterize very negatively.

  489. Spanish (not Austrian!) Habsburgs in the early 16th century took possession of southern Italy (the Kingdom of Sicilies and Kingdom of Naples) and the Duchy of Milan.

    In 1526. 16th century. Renaissance. Charles V was also Holy Roman Emperor.

  490. So you don’t mind Croatian nationalists slaughtering 100,00s of your people, naturally.

  491. “Never been proven that the Serbian government was directly involved in the conspiracy”
    Yevgeny Tarle “History of imperialism”

    You are quoting a Stalin-era Soviet “historian.”

    Meanwhile in the real world:

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Dragutin-Dimitrijevic

    A young army officer and already a member of the Serbian general staff, Dimitrijević in 1901 initiated an officers’ conspiracy to assassinate the unpopular king Alexander Obrenović. The plan was finally carried out in June 1903. Soon thereafter the conspirators succeeded in bringing the army under their control. As a professor of tactics at the military academy, Dimitrijević exerted considerable influence over his students, and he fostered Serbian nationalistic activity abroad. More significantly, he was also a founding member (1911) and inspirational leader of the nationalistic secret society Ujedinjenje ili Smrt (“Union or Death”), better known as the Black Hand, which sought to create a Greater Serbia through the use of violence. Dimitrijević is considered to have played an important role in plotting the assassination of the Austrian archduke Franz Ferdinand at Sarajevo (June 28, 1914), which touched off World War I.

    In 1913 Dimitrijević had been appointed chief of general staff intelligence in the Serbian army

    :::::::::::::::

    So the head of Serbian government’s intelligence was directly involved.

    Russian terorists received asylum in Germany/Austria, they received material support (at least from the German social Democrats)

    Getting funding from a political party isn’t the same as a government official actually organizing an assassination of the heir to the throne.

    they freely printed Newspapers (with calls to terrorism)

    Allowing the printing of a newspaper that says terrible things isn’t the same as a government official actually organizing an assassination of the heir to the throne

    Jozef Pilsudski (100% terrorist) had direct material support from Austrian intelligence.

    Which tsar or tsarevich did he murder? Which of Pilsudski’s terrorist activities were directly organized by Austrian government officials?

  492. the Duchy of Milan In 1526. 16th century. Renaissance. Charles V was also Holy Roman Emperor

    Your original statement

    Did you know that the Hapsburgs controlled northern Italy during much of the Renaissance?

    Do you realize that these are sooooo different statements?

  493. Because it’s possible that Hapsburg rule caused their subject peoples to evolve to become more trusting:

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ecoj.12220

    Thus, I was wondering if a similar effect could have been achieved in regards to raising average IQ in Hapsburg lands. After all, the average IQ factor is probably what explains northern Italy’s success relative to southern Italy. Depending on whether or not the Hapsburgs are responsible for this, we can subsequently proceed to determine just how much credit the Hapsburgs should get for northern Italian success.

  494. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    So, by that logic, Armenian and Greek nationalists are completely fine with having millions of their people slaughtered by Turk nationalists simply because they happen to be nationalists? Are you suggesting Greeks and Armenians should forever give up on being nationalist because they were victims of genocides?

    That’s not how things work in the real world. In fact, if anything, getting mass slaughtered by hostile ethnic groups usually makes a given ethnic group more nationalist, not less, and for good reason. Ignoring the fact that your statement is a complete non-sequitur, its premise completely falls apart when it comes into contact with reality.

    Nationalism does not equal mass murder. The fact that Croats are collectively mentally ill and eager to commit genocide, mass murder and forced expulsion is their problem, not mine. It’s obvious by your comment that you are gloating over such a thing … As unfair as wishing death and disappearing out of existence by diversity on anyone is, you really do deserve to be killed and/or gang raped by Third World migrants. The sooner, the better.

  495. In fact, if anything, getting mass slaughtered by hostile ethnic groups usually makes a given ethnic group more nationalist, not less, and for good reason.

    Yep. Israel. As Anatoly Karlin previously pointed out, in spite of them being victims of Nazi race-based persecution, the Jews have subsequently created one of the most ethno-nationalistic states in the West/First World/developed world.

  496. Like I said, yours truly has seen in person many Serbs and Bulgarians over the years. Some have Slav looks, with others looking more like Turks, Greeks or Italians. Then again, plenty of blond, blue eyed Italians. Some blonde, relatively fair skinned Greeks as well.

  497. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Well, i wouldn’t go so far as to completely believe the dominant narrative of mainstream “Nazi race-based persecution” against Jews (Not that i’m pro-Nazi). Still, it’s clear that you and a majority of people can easily understand at least why it’s logical for ethnic groups that are victims of unpleasant experiences to pursue ethnic nationalism, even though you may disagree with it, unlike AP.

  498. reiner Tor says

    “Never been proven that the Serbian government was directly involved in the conspiracy”
    Yevgeny Tarle “History of imperialism”

    More recent historians disagree.

    It’s just a lie

    You call almost everything you disagree with a “lie.” It’s not very conducive of a civilized discussion.

    Prince Lichnowsky is not the be all and end all of arguments. For example, not all German diplomats were of the same opinion as he was. He wanted to follow a more cautious policy, and then was vindicated. Similarly, there were Russian statesmen who warned the Tsar against backing Serbia.

    Or here’s the French ambassador to Serbia:

    Léon Descos, French Ambassador to Belgrade, on 1 July reported that a Serbian military party was involved in the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, that Serbia was in the wrong, and that Russian Ambassador Hartwig was in constant conversations with Regent Alexander to guide Serbia through this crisis.[12] The “military party” was a reference to Chief of Serbian Military Intelligence, Dragutin Dimitrijević and the officers he led in the 1903 murder of the King and Queen of Serbia. Their acts led to the installation of the dynasty ruled by King Peter and Regent Alexander. Serbia requested and France arranged the replacement of Descos with the more hawkish Boppe who arrived on 25 July.[13]

    Then you mention this:

    from the German social Democrats

    The German Social Democrats were an opposition party, from 1878 until 1888 in particular oppressed. So not exactly the same thing as the German government financing terrorists.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Socialist_Laws

  499. reiner Tor says

    When in 1881 Alexander II was killed by terrorists, the terrorists behind this murder (who took refuge from the gallows in Europe) were considered heroes in Europe.

    By Bismarck and Franz Joseph? Gavrilo Princip was considered a hero by the Serbian public and government.

    Moreover, the murder was organized by the head of the Serbian military intelligence.

    When in 1881 Alexander II was killed by terrorists, the terrorists behind this murder (who took refuge from the gallows in Europe)

    Well, in your style I could say: “that’s a lie.” Everyone involved in the murder of Alexander II were arrested hanged in Russia, except one woman who received clemency because she was pregnant (but died anyway a few months later), and another guy who also received clemency and was released after 14 years in Russia.

    Stepnyak-Kravchinsky

    You make it sound like Stepnyak-Kravchinsky was involved in the murder of Alexander II. He wasn’t. He killed a chief of the Russian secret police. He went to Switzerland (no way Russia could’ve started a war over his murder), then to England (ditto). And his crime was much smaller than killing an heir to the throne.

    Even Finland (as part of the Russian Empire) using the rights of autonomy, harbored accomplices of terror.

    I’m not sure which accomplices of terror you are referring to, but obviously not murderers of royalty.

    Its wouldn’t have gone to war

    The analogy would be the head of Romanian military intelligence organizing the murder of the Tsarevich, or perhaps a nephew of the Tsar. Your examples aren’t really analogous.

  500. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    When you say Bulgaria was “attacked” by all its neighbours in the 2nd Balkan War, that’s completely untrue.

    Serbia and Greece signed a defensive alliance in 1913 against Bulgaria and it’s potential ambitions. The Greek-Serbian Alliance of 1913 or “Treaty of Peace, Friendship and Mutual Protection” did have a clause obliging the two signatories to maintain “favourable neutrality” if one started an offensive war first. In the event, it was Bulgaria that attacked Serbia first in Vardar Macedonia. That is, in a night attack that the Serbian army managed to regroup against and repel. The Bulgarians are so butthurt about losing the 2nd Balkan War that there is literally no information about the Battle of Breglanica on Wikepidia because the Bulgarians blocked it lol. In fact, there is very little information about the Battle of Bregalnica in English sources in general.

    The 2nd Balkan War is absolutely the fault of Bulgaria and especially its Habs king Ferdinand I who dishonored literally every treaty obligation he made with Serbia. Bulgaria first dishonored its treaty obligation with Serbia during the 1st Balkan War, where Bulgaria was obliged to by treaty, but literally sent 0 soldiers at all to help Serbia liberate Vardar Macedonia from the Ottomans instead. Compare that to the Serbian Army sending 47,275 Serbian soldiers with 72 artillery guns led by Stepa Stepanovic to help the Bulgarian siege of Adrianople (Edirne/Odrin) during the 1st Balkan War. Bulgarian sources deliberately downplay the role of the Serb army in freeing that city from the Ottomans.

    More importantly, the Bulgarians backed down when the great powers of Austria-Hungary, Britain and Italy created Albania out of Serb territorial gains under Serb and Montenegro Army occupation. They did this because the great powers sent an ultimatum threatening war against Serbia if it didn’t allow Albania to be created. Serbia simply had to back down because the Bulgarians under Ferdinand I refused to aid Serbia in such a scenario even though they were literally obliged to by treaty. The pre-1st Balkan War treaties specified that Bulgaria had to come to Serbia’s defense if any other state or states attacked Serbia. Of course, after the creation of Albania, Serbia, with good reason, dishonored its prewar agreement to concede most of Vardar Macedonia (Serbia had effective military occupation over it by end of the 1st Balkan War) to Bulgaria. The option of having the Russian Tsar arbitrate this dispute over Vardar Macedonia was still open to the Bulgarians, as it was a part of the pre-war Serb-Bulgarian agreements, but they refused it.

    So, after they attacked the Serbian army at night, where they were hoping to get away with slaughtering their allies in the dark, but failed to after the Serbs regrouped, the obvious happened. Greece joined Serbia’s side as according to the Greek-Serbian alliance of 1913. Then, since the Bulgarians had dishonored their pre-1st Balkan War agreements with Romania, to cede Silistra for Romanian neutrality, Romania unsurprisingly attacked Bulgaria. Then, the Turks used the opportunity to reconquer some land. After a few battles with the Serbs and Greeks, they were nearly totally overrun by foreign armies. Especially the Romanian and Turk armies encountered no resistance at all as the Bulgarians sent most of their forces against Serbia and Greece.

    The Bulgarians got what was only a logical and expected consequence of them publicly and recklessly dishonoring the prewar arrangements they made with Serbia and Romania. Still though, the greatest blame for the 2nd Balkan War lies with the great powers of Britain, Austria-Hungary and Italy for creating Albania. We can thank them for creating a Muslim majority state in Europe that serves as an international hub of drug trafficking, organ smuggling, prostitution and other culturally enriching things of a similar nature.

  501. reiner Tor says

    what would they be if 50% of Habsburg population would be denied even citizenship?

    Well, that would be called “Beneš decrees.”

    the restrictions on group (national) rights were very severe

    Less severe than in France, for example. And Hungarian policy until the 1880s wasn’t that nationalistic, the original law on nationalities was very liberal and sanctioned education in the local languages.

    self-defeating

    I don’t think there was ever a way of making Slovaks, Czechs, even Hungarians really loyal to the Austrian state. It was impossible in the Age of Nationalism, even Hungarians, despite all their privileges, were just half-hearted in their support for the monarchy. One problem was suffrage – Hungary had a very restrictive suffrage, covering only 6% of the population, and voting was open, which made it very easy for the government to manipulate it. Politicians understood that it was a very backward system, but universal suffrage combined with secret voting would’ve destroyed Hungarian ethnic dominance, and it’d also have destroyed the nobility’s dominance among Hungarians.

    Had Hungary been independent, the idea of providing wide autonomy (and perhaps independence) to some regions like Slovakia might’ve gained currency among realist politicians, but within the context of the Habsburg Monarchy it would’ve meant that Hungary would’ve lost its meager veto powers in foreign policy.

    Now this veto power was largely an illusion (in the end the Austrians always prevailed, especially since the Habsburg king could simply dissolve the Hungarian Diet and appointed another government), but without it, Hungary would only have been a small autonomous part of a large empire with really no say in foreign policy, and thus no ability to prevent foreign policy adventures.

    I’ve already provided a link how the Hungarian public opposed Bosnia’s occupation (the Austrians prevailed, with the help of the pro-Habsburg Hungarian government, which didn’t dare oppose the Habsburg king), now here’s how the Hungarian prime minster opposed the July ultimatum:

    At that meeting of the Crown Council, all involved were in full favour of war except Hungarian Prime Minister István Tisza.[53] Tisza warned that any attack on Serbia “would, as far as can humanly be foreseen, lead to an intervention by Russia and hence a world war”.[52] The rest of the participants debated about whether Austria should just launch an unprovoked attack or issue an ultimatum to Serbia with demands so stringent that it was bound to be rejected.[53] Austrian Prime Minister Stürgkh warned Tisza that if Austria did not launch a war, its “policy of hesitation and weakness” would cause Germany to abandon Austria-Hungary as an ally.[53] All present, except Tisza, finally agreed that Austria-Hungary should present an ultimatum designed to be rejected.[23]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_Crisis#Tisza_alone_opposes_war_with_Serbia

    Hungarians ultimately got a very bad deal with the Compromise of 1867: we got to lord over the whole of historical Hungary (where we were merely a plurality of the population, even excluding Croatia by 1910 barely a majority), but we didn’t have an independent foreign policy, and got merely an illusion of influencing Austrian foreign policy. That way we got blamed and punished for all Austrian misdeeds (real or perceived).

    Kossuth understood this, but of course the pull of immediate short term gains proved irresistible.

    Interestingly, Hungary lost Burgenland to Austria (the only case where the border was to follow ethnic borders – and the only border where it was to our detriment), which meant that in Trianon they actually rewarded Austria at the expense of Hungary, as if Hungary was more to blame for the war than Austria…

  502. reiner Tor says

    I don’t have a dog in this fight, my point was simply that Trotsky didn’t need to be a paid Austrian agent in order to spread falsehoods about Serbia. His reliance on Bulgarian sources explains any pro-Bulgarian bias he might have had.

    the great powers of Austria-Hungary, Britain and Italy created Albania out of Serb territorial gains under Serb and Montenegro Army occupation

    But would it have been beneficial to have many millions of Albanians in your country? Is it not a similar problem to having many millions of Croats in your country (i.e. Yugoslavism)?

    Anyway, I think friendly relations between Serbia and Austria-Hungary would’ve been difficult anyway, because Serbian nationalism by default coveted all areas of Serb settlement, which predominantly meant areas in Austria-Hungary. But maybe it could’ve been placated by letting it keep Albania, and giving it Bosnia and Montenegro.

    Vardar Macedonia

    Was the population there pro-Serbian, pro-Bulgarian, or neither? I ask this question because you just denounced Yugoslavism, which aimed at annexing as much as possible, and then ending up in a state where Serbs were merely a plurality, and then all the minorities had to be placated etc.

    Was annexing Vardar Macedonia not a similar mistake?

  503. Gavrilo Princip was considered a hero by the Serbian public and government.

    LOL, no

    Trotsky didn’t need to be a paid Austrian agent in order to spread falsehoods about Serbia. His reliance on Bulgarian sources explains any pro-Bulgarian bias he might have had.

    There were no “Bulgarian sources” on his fabricated accounts of mass Serb executions of Turks and Albanians which never happened.

    But would it have been beneficial to have many millions of Albanians in your country?

    There were no million of Albanians there. Present day Shkodra was medieval Serb capital and the area south of Skadar Lake was part of Serbian lands since 7th century. Albanians became majority in Kosovo through ethnic cleansing and immigration in the last 120 years.

  504. Was the population there pro-Serbian, pro-Bulgarian, or neither?

    There were actual ethnic Serbs dispersed throughout the region in towns, while the northern part of Vardar/Strymon Macedonia around Skopje and Skopje Holy Mount was medieval Serb land – Old Srbija, the seat of late kings and emperor.

    The eastern part are Bulgarians, including Strumica and present-day Zaev.

    The third group are SlavoMacedonians who were closest to now de facto extinct Slavs of Greece.

    Bulgarian funded and supported terrorist group VMRO commited thousands of assassinations and murders from late 19th century and beginning of WW2 – in fact, they were the worst trouble for Kingdom of Yugoslavia in the Interbellum, not Ustashe.
    During Ottoman reign, they targeted Turks and local officials, but at the same time, targeted notable Serbs as well – this intensified after Serbia conquered the region in First Balkan War, and went into overdrive during Bulgarian occupation in both World Wars.

  505. And Hungarian policy until the 1880s wasn’t that nationalistic, the original law on nationalities was very liberal and sanctioned education in the local languages.

    A Serb delegation approached Kossuth in 1848 on his stance towards non-Hungarian subjects of non-Austrian parts of Habsburg Empire.

    He informed them he viewed it as Hungarian crown land, where only Hungarian language will exist.

    You guessed it, the Serbs took it very personally and proved instrumental in both Jelačić’s Grenzer Army that marched on Vienna and Hungarians, and Woiwodschaft Serbien they proclaimed to fight the Hungarians.

    I have already posted the official data on change between 1790 and 1910 in lands of Hungarian crown – 29% to 54% increase in Hungarian speaking population.

  506. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Trotsky wasn’t the only one to spread false propaganda against Serbs during the Balkan Wars. All the false propaganda came from a deliberate and systematic international campaign by the great powers to villify and demonize Serbs by making up atrocity, genocide and war crime allegations against them in favor of the Albanians. There was literally a “Carnegie Endowment for Peace Commission” that made a report hoaxing mass murder, rape, and other atrocities supposedly committed by Serbs against Albanians. It was led by 3 Anglos, a German, an Austrian, 2 French and a Russian liberal. It’s obvious that especially the Anglos, Austrian and Russian liberal would’ve had a strong anti-Serb disposition. Of course, since nobody was moved by poor Muslim stories at that time, unlike today, they made up most of the atrocities as being directed against Catholic Albanians even though they’ve always been and still are a small minority of Albanians. The Norwegian colonel Henrik August Angell who personally followed the Ottoman and Serb armies, said that all the reporting was a “demonization of Serbs” and “shameful injustice”. It was all a bunch of outrageous hoaxes fabricated to justify making Albania to their populations. Leon Trotsky took part in this fabrication.

    Today, there are only 3 million Albanians in Albania proper plus around 750,000 in Kosovo (real number compared to false demographic figures) and “North Macedonia” each. Back then, there were a lot less. Albanians as a people are really called Shiptars or Shqipere (pronounced “Shchipere”). It’s not a “racist” slur, it’s literally what they call themselves. They are plagiarizing Serb historical heritage and falsifying history by calling themselves Albanians. They are an alien and non-European tribe from the Caucuses that was brought into the territory of current Albania in the 13th century by accident. A Greek Byzantine commander was using them as mercenaries in wars over Sicily (they migrated from Caucus by Muslim Arab caliphate that brought them to Sicily), but had a large fleet with thousands of Shiptars inside that got destroyed in a storm off the coast of Albania and caused them to be stuck there. The majority of current Albania was inhabited by Serbs and Greeks. In fact, southern Albania still has a Greek minority population, that is in Northern Epirus (Greece was also forced to back down from Albania as well). Many current Albanian cities like Skadar (“Ishkodra”) and Valona (“Vlore”) were really all Serbian inhabited and Serb majority in the medieval ages and later until the Shiptars demographically bred aggressively, colonized and assimilated many of the local Serbs during Turk occupation when the majority of them converted to Islam. Their national hero is a man who is called “George Kastriot Skanderberg” that was half Serb and Greek, literally anything but Shiptar. Their whole country is completely fake and artificially made. They don’t even function as a real country, instead they are a bunch of tribes that speak different languages in the north and south between Gheg and Tosk Shiptar respectively. They literally still follow primitive tribal codes such as Kanun, and have “Besas” (oaths of honor) between tribes or foreigners that they use most commonly to agree on killing people among other things. I know because a part of my family are Serbs who were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo in the 1960’s. It was because a few Albanian tribes of several hundred people got together and made a “Besa” to kill my great grandpa (a government judge who punished Shiptars with harsh imprisonment sentences for their crimes of killing, raping and stealing from Serbs) and his whole extended family so they had to flee from South Kosovo to Belgrade in the 1960’s (Communist government wouldn’t protect Serbs on Kosovo after Aleksander Rankovic was removed and Tito forbade Serbs who fled from Kosovo to return since 1945).

    It’s one thing to have a foreign people in a country that you treat at minimum as equals, if not superior, and literally let them walk over you (Yugoslavia), it’s another to have them as an inferior subject people where you take care of your own security, even if it comes at their expense. The problem of Shiptars could’ve been easily managed by reviving all the Serbs assimilated into Shiptarhood and then forcibly expelling the others back to the Caucus and/or Turkey. Serbia rightfully and wisely, forcefully expelled Shiptars from the Nis and Leskovac regions of 1878 after getting Nis and Leskovac from the Berlin Congress resulting from the 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War where Serbs fought with Russia. Forcefully expelling Shiptars was completely fair game since they are an invader people that as a majority collaborated extensively with the Turk occupators for centuries by killing, raping and burning Serbs. A Shiptar Pasha, Sinan Pasha, killed thousands of Serbs after a failed uprising and burned the holy remains of Saint Sava on a hill in Belgrade where the current Church of Saint Sava stands, partly as a monument to this. Forcefully expelling and reviving assimilated Serbs from the Shiptars and Bosnian Muslims is completely proper, necessary and something long overdue to be done in the 21st century. Serbs spent centuries enduring terror from Shiptars, Islamified Serbs and Turks while fighting many wars and rebellions against them from the disastrous Battle of Maritsa in 1371 (more a massacre of elite Serb nobles and knights made possible by Serb naivety and Turk trickery) to the 1st Balkan War in 1913. Any people that had to put up with this would understandably not have a very high average IQ and be in a difficult place.

    The truth with the population of Vardar Macedonia was that it was mixed between pro-Serb and pro-Bulgarian elements. Just before the Turks conquered the Balkans in 14th century, it was all a part of the Serbian Empire (plus half of Greece). Famous Serb nobles and lords such as Vukasin and Ugljesa Mrnjavcevic plus the legendary Marko Kraljevic were all from Vardar Macedonia. Vardar Macedonia also had lots of Serb churches, architecture and other cultural heritage which managed to partly survive Turk occupation. The Bulgarians obviously exaggerate that it was completely theirs plus exaggerate the “evil Serb/Yugoslav occupation” of Macedonia. Of course, the current Monkeydonianism (An accurate Greek name for Slavs who think they’re “Macedonians”) was invented by Tito and the Communists after WW2 to sabotage ethnic Serbs, Bulgarians and make territorial claims on Greece. Any concept of Monkeydonianism didn’t exist before WW2 at all. Literally everyone in Macedonia thought they were either Serb or Bulgarians until after WW2. There was actually a notable amount of Serbs in current day Thessaloniki at the start of the 20th century as well. A Bulgarian VMRO leader, Dame Gruev, founded a Society Against Serbs that killed and tortured Serb academics, intellectuals and others in Thessaloniki and all over Macedonia (Macedonia includes Vardaria, South West current Bulgaria and Greek Macedonia). Serb Chetniks actually came about out of the Macedonian Struggle from 1903-1912 between Serb Chetniks, Bulgarian VMRO Komitadji, and Greek armed banks. Armed Serb, Bulgarian and Greek bands basically fought each other and Turks for years over Ottoman occupied Macedonia. The Greeks actually brutally expelled and forcibly assimilated many Serb/Bulgarian slavs in the Macedonia that they still currently have which is partly why the whole Macedonia issue is so sensitive for them. The Turks especially brutally mass murdered 200,000 Thracian Bulgarians and expelled the rest in the 2nd Balkan war.

    Annexing Vardar Macedonia was not a mistake but rather compensation for losing Albania to the great powers. At least that was how it was seen by the Serbian government and Serbs in general. It makes clear sense given that Albania would’ve been manageable, and that Serbia would’ve gained next to nothing (only Kosovo, a part of Old Raska and other little scraps) from the 1st Balkan War if it gave up Vardar Macedonia.

  507. At present, the “VMRO” in Northern Macedonia is a weird blend of Yugocommunism and regionalism based “nationalism”.

    Pseudoleftist Bulgarian Zaev is in coalition with Shqiptar intruders and is a totally moronic Globohomo Euroatlanticist servant – this was recently exposed by leaked Russian prankster calls where he not only fell for fake Poroshenko and Stoltenberg calls, he called them back to complain about Russians and Vučić being a Russian agent, Russia conspiring to divide Kosovo etc etc.
    He is so stupid he fell for the fake Poroshenko’s story on giving 150 000 dollars for autocephaly, and that he could get a discount for Macedonian autocephaly, so it would only be 100 000 for him.

    Interestingly, the Yugocommunists thoroughly destroyed all church and civil data post-WW2, created a Macedonian Orthodox Church, took churches and monasteries from Serb Orthodox Church and gave it to their appointed clergy – this church is not recognized, Macedonia imprisoned Serb clergy and banned some of them from entering the state – guess who built most of the old churches and monasteries in the region.

  508. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    LOL.

    Zoran Zaev and Monkeydonian Svidomy. Monkeydonians are genuinely retarded. The Greeks are completely right in their position on Monkeydonia. It’s a complete shame that the Greeks cucked and signed the Prespa Agreement in 2018.

  509. 74 years during the Renaissance, about as long as the USSR existed.

  510. These areas in Italy were wealthier before Hapsburgs, so I doubt they had that type of influence.

  511. So, by that logic, Armenian and Greek nationalists are completely fine with having millions of their people slaughtered by Turk nationalists

    You fail at logic just as you fail at basic historical facts.

    I pointed out that nationalism and communism have been destructive and caused the deaths of tens of millions of Europeans. (post-modern liberalism is more humane in methods but no less self-destructive but that’s another topic)

    You were too stupid to understand this and asked “Lol, what’s wrong with nationalism”

    One would think that the fact that 100,000s of your own people were slaughtered by nationalists would lead you to understand “what’s wrong with nationalism.”

    But you are a Balkanoid. Slaughtering and being slaughtered is just a way of life, nothing strange or bad about it. And it’s probably hard for you to put two and two together.

  512. One would think that the fact that 100,000s of your own people were slaughtered by nationalists would lead you to understand “what’s wrong with nationalism.”

    Croats being nationalist has very little to do with it.

    They were given the opportunity and means to commit their crimes by the same powers and people who gave Turks free reign to commit their crimes – both unpunished, in fact rewarded by much expanded, internationally recognized borders.

    For Croats – Vatican/Catholic establishment, Germans, Angloatlanticists all had their reasons for backing, most boiling down to curtailing possible Russian/Orthodox influence by reducing Serbs to the smallest area possible.

  513. Croats being nationalist has very little to do with it.

    You think if they weren’t nationalists they would have slaughtered all of those Serbs anyways?

  514. Croats weren’t very nationalistic on average during that period.
    The election results and general mood in the Interbellum and during the war proves it.

    A vanguard party and a narrow, extremely radical movement mobilized all those who were, and there was nothing to counter, balance them and keep them in check – on the contrary, they were aided in their efforts.

    That is one of the most important historical and political lessons. The same people who sent letters and pleas to Serbs to protect them against Austrians, Italians and Hungarians (the borders of Slovenia and Croatia were the positions where Serbian Army stopped), welcomed “Serb liberators” in 1918 and 1919 in towns and cities, sang praises were just as easily persuaded to look the other way and even serve in police, paramilitary and military forces of a country bent on eradicating Serbs.

    I could go into even greater detail and describe how Serb-descended individuals and communities in present-day Slavonia, Lika, Dalmatia and west Herzegovina became staunchest Croat nationalists and anti-Serb fighters.

    But then you might recognize a familiar pattern and the role of (foreign, imposed) religion and foreign power meddling.

  515. Mitleser says

    Hungarians ultimately got a very bad deal with the Compromise of 1867

    What would have been a good deal for Hungary?
    If Budapest had refused to make concessions, Wien would not have any good reason not to cripple Hungary.

    Interestingly, Hungary lost Burgenland to Austria (the only case where the border was to follow ethnic borders – and the only border where it was to our detriment), which meant that in Trianon they actually rewarded Austria at the expense of Hungary, as if Hungary was more to blame for the war than Austria…

    Hardly, but Hungarians were the most priviledeged (major) national group within the empire.
    Letting German Austria gain Burgenland looks like classic divide et impera.

  516. reiner Tor says

    What would have been a good deal for Hungary?

    Anything else. Like staying under Austrian oppression, exactly like before 1861, or even 1867. Or some Austrian Compromise with the Slavs, who would then be the villains if the Austrians screw up some military adventure. Whatever. Long term each ethnicity was bound to have an ethnically more or less “clean” country by the end of the 20th century. Our final borders managed to exclude one third of ethnic Hungarians. I don’t think anyone else got a worse. The Serbs got a similar rough deal as we did, though the majority of their co-ethnics outside their borders either have their own state (Montenegro) or at least an autonomous republic (in Bosnia). They have been cleansed from several areas, but Hungarians were at least partially cleansed from many places and lost ethnic majority in many previously ethnically Magyar areas. Maybe more Serbs were mass murdered in the 20th century than Hungarians, though in relation to us Serbs mass murdered more Hungarians than vice versa. (Not that we’re completely innocent on that front. Not that anyone is completely innocent here.) So, altogether, it’s pretty unlikely that if we were the poor oppressed victims of the Habsburgs, we’d be in a worse position than we are.

    If Budapest had refused to make concessions, Wien would not have any good reason not to cripple Hungary.

    What does it even mean? Hungary had an economic boom from the 1850s, so it started while we were oppressed. The Austrians were happy with it, because their tax income was growing. (But not enough for their budget deficit.) The Poles experienced a similar economic boom as we did until 1914, all the while being oppressed, while we were “privileged.” So did it matter, long term? We could have gone on being oppressed for another half a century, nobody would care today.

    Hungarians were the most priviledeged (major) national group within the empire

    But had very little say in determining the foreign policy, which was almost exclusively decided by German Austrian aristocrats and noblemen. So it was still German Austrians who dominated the empire as a whole. And it was a very small subset of Hungarians (or German Austrians) who were privileged at all. It wouldn’t have mattered for the rest.

  517. “Hungarians were the most privileged (major) national group within the empire. “– And the most ungrateful one or at least so they were perceived by other groups. There is a scene in Joseph Roth’s Radetzky March where Hungarian hussars at a party at Polish count’s estate in Galicia are rejoicing Sarajevo assassination, iirc.

  518. reiner Tor says

    Kossuth in 1848

    That’s all nice and dandy, but Kossuth went into exile in August 1849 and stayed there for the rest of his life.

    I’m talking about Hungarian policies from 1867 (the year Hungary had its first government since 1849) until about the 1880s.

    Serbs took it very personally

    On the other hand, not all Serbs thought like this. General János Damjanich became a great Hungarian national hero, and he was ethnically Serb, as is taught in both elementary and secondary school to all Hungarian schoolchildren.

    I have already posted the official data on change between 1790 and 1910 in lands of Hungarian crown – 29% to 54% increase in Hungarian speaking population.

    A huge percentage of the increase was diaspora nationalities, especially ethnic German settlers (and to a smaller extent Jews), or for example ethnic Slovak settlers in Békés (currently the southeastern part of Hungary). Another big source of the increase was the assimilation of the previously German speaking urban population (Budapest, Székesfehérvár, partly Pozsony/Bratislava, Sopron, etc.). A third big source was ethnic minorities moving to Budapest, who then quickly assimilated.

    I don’t think the rural ethnic border moved much at all anywhere, except in the case of the diaspora ethnicities.

  519. reiner Tor says

    Hungarian hussars at a party at Polish count’s estate in Galicia are rejoicing Sarajevo assassination

    The crown prince quite openly hated Hungarians. Why should we have been “grateful” to Franz Ferdinand?

  520. reiner Tor says

    I have already posted the official data on change between 1790 and 1910 in lands of Hungarian crown – 29% to 54% increase in Hungarian speaking population.

    The 1790 data includes Croatia, while the 1910 data excludes it. The 1790 data excluding Croatia would be 38%.

    I also forgot to mention that a large portion of the ethnically Hungarian areas had still not recovered from the devastation of the Turkish occupation and especially the wars 1514-1711. (The beginning and ending dates are two civil wars.) So ethnically Hungarian areas had lower population densities, which resulted in a faster natural rate of growth.

  521. That’s all nice and dandy, but Kossuth went into exile in August 1849 and stayed there for the rest of his life.

    Autonomous Hungary was proclaimed in March 1848.

    As a consequence, Serbs formed a delegation which went to Pozsony/Bratislava/Požun to present Serb questions and issues.

    Kossuth responded that in lands of Hungarian Crown there can be no other people than Magyars/Hungarians, nor any other language.

    Serbs replied that if Pozsony won’t listen to them and accept their rights, they will find a place that will (Vienna).
    Kossuth was agitated, threatening that swords will clash – “Serbs have never been the ones to cower” was the reply.

    At this time, Habsburgs agreed to all Hungarian initial demands, Hungarian Diet was still in power, not revolutionaries, and national revolution/uprising had not yet taken place.

    July 1848 Kossuth was still counting on Serbs being viewed as rebels by Vienna, and on 11th July in Budapest he stated that “Serbs are rebels and outlaws to whom the only response possible is the rope of court martial”

    By November/December 1848 Serb Patriarch Rajačić had reached full agreement with Vienna, in addition to semi-independent Serbian Principality (in Ottoman Empire) had threatened anti-Habsburg option among Serbs, Hungarians had changed their mind and finally sent a very generous offer to Serbs, which was rebuked, Patriarch not even informing anyone outside the inner circle of the details of the Hungarian offer, because his base of power, funding and his allegiance lied with Habsburgs. The ban of Croatia, Josip Jelačić was actually consecrated by that same Serb Patriarch when he assumed duty.

  522. reiner Tor says

    It’d have been better if Macedonians were assimilated to either Bulgarians or Serbs. It’s pretty cringeworthy to even say the name of the country (“North Macedonia”), and the fact that they pretend to do anything with ancient Macedonians makes it even more cringeworthy.

  523. Mitleser says

    Priviledeged means that Hungarians were masters in their own house, more so than the German Austrians who had to accept universale male franchise in their own which was even not called officially Austrian, unlike the Hungarian Kingdom.

    Foreign policy lools like the only major issue were Hungarians were really worse off than the German Austrians.

  524. reiner Tor says

    Hungarians had sent a very generous offer to Serbs, which Patriarch kept for himself because his base of power, funding and his allegiance lied with Habsburgs

    I didn’t know that. Not that I’m extremely knowledgeable about those events (still probably know more than most people in Hungary, but not nearly as much detail as about WW2, for example), but for example in Hungarian schools they teach that the Hungarian leadership rejected all (mostly rightful) demands of the minorities until the summer of 1849, when, on the verge of defeat, the leaders finally realized their folly and finally on July 28, 1849 the Hungarian Diet passed a nationality law (the first of its kind in Europe or probably the world), which included rights to education in the local languages, and for the rights to use their languages in the courtroom, or the administration of counties with a majority of the local non-Magyar ethnicity would be conducted in the local language.

  525. I will go out on a thin limb and defend the maligned “Beneš decrees”. The decrees were by Czech nationalists returning from WWII London exile as a retribution for the mass murder done by Germans – with enthusiastic support by the local Sudeten Germans who were often the main or only perpetrators. Local Magyars were thrown in, because, well that could be a long story, Apponyi schools laws, Cernova, etc…

    Collective punishment is in principle wrong: families should not suffer for the misdeeds of their members. Or should they? Let’s see: Germans openly applied group responsibility to Czechs and often killed whole families as example to others. My grandma used to say: “with stupid people, you have to act stupid” – same principle applies to wanton cruelty. They did.

    To be above retribution is evolutionary foolish – Germans did it to us, so we retaliated in kind. It wasn’t pretty, but an alternative was in 1945 unthinkable. So yes, Benes decrees (still in force, by the way) were right. Now, what would be an excuse under Habsburgs to do that to its Slav population? Your analogy is incorrect.

  526. reiner Tor says

    Hungarian nationality law passed in 1868 also was pretty generous, including the usage of local languages in administration or the courtrooms wherever the ethnicity in question comprised at least 20% of the population of the county. This law was increasingly not kept by the 1880s as memories of the events of 1848/49 faded and newer generations of politicians tried to Magyarize the minority ethnicities. There’s exactly zero evidence that they had any success (assimilation didn’t accelerate much, as it was driven by the factors mentioned in my comments above), but they definitely managed to create laws which were highly unpleasant for non-Magyar speakers.

  527. It turned out to be a very costly mistake.
    In 1860, the Woiwodschaft Serbien won in 1848-1849 was abolished, along with Serbian autonomy – the area became part of Hungarian Kingdom.
    Even worse, a part of it was joined to Kingdom of Slavonia.
    In the 1871-1881 period, the former Militärgrenze was demilitarized and its lands split to Kingdom of Hungary and Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia.

    This made religious and assimilation pressure on Serbs much stronger which can be seen on census data from 1790 to 1910 for territory of Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia.

  528. I am not saying they should have been grateful but they should have kept their trap shut and certainly they should have not rejoiced his death which was totally unintelligent. It brings bad karma. Foreshadowing of the end of the dream about the Great Hungary. Poetic justice?

    Hasek also portrays Hungarians as low intelligence yahoos.

  529. Spisarevski says

    all this Serb butthurt in this thread
    LOL

    https://i.imgur.com/swC4Fa7.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/NoBiMkU.png

  530. I don’t think there was ever a way of making Slovaks, Czechs, even Hungarians really loyal to the Austrian state. It was impossible in the Age of Nationalism, even Hungarians, despite all their privileges, were just half-hearted in their support for the monarchy.

    That was true by 1914, but not in 1848 – something happened in the 65 years that made Habsburgs obsolete. Czech nationalism was originally ‘Austro-slavic‘, with a stated goal of turning A-H into a tripartite monarchy, with Prague presumably the third city. 1867 was seen as a betrayal and a new generation of Czech and Slovak leaders started to shift to a ‘Czecho-Slovak’ idea, by 1900 it was irreversible. Czechs needed Slovakia to get some geographic heft and depth. Slovaks needed Czechs as a counter-weight to Magyars. Habsburgs miscalculated by betting on Hungarians in 1867, Magyars miscalculated demographically. The idiotic expansion into the Balkans was just the last straw.

    Hungary lost Burgenland to Austria

    The inconsistency has always intrigued me. Burgenland was very mixed: Austrians, Magyars, Croats, etc… At one point, Benes proposed a ‘corridor’ through Burgenland to connect Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia – clearly a bridge too far. Although, there are 3 small towns on the southern side of Danube that were in 1918 mostly Croat speaking and were annexed to Slovakia in 1945 (a very nice horse riding area).

    One thing that Magyars miss is the extent to which their treatment of minorities between 1890-1914 can’t be undone – and the damage to our relations will always be there. They tried to square a circle: create a mono-lingual Magyar speaking Hungary when they were barely half of the population and the other nations had strong support right across the borders (e.g. Slovaks in Czechs). So we separated – and not on Magyar terms because they were on the losing side. There is a lesson there for others, countries seldom die of normal internal discord, but they do die of indigestion. (And we are back to Ukraine.:)

  531. More recent historians disagree.

    in published a collection of articles of M. N. Pokrovsky “Imperialist war”, in the Preface…author attacks me for the words that never has been proven the direct involvement of the Serbian government in the plot. I still say that now….. Pokrovsky is sure that “of course, the order signed by Pashich — to kill Franz Ferdinand — in any archives can not be found.” Why? Maybe someday there will be documents about it incriminating and evidential — because sometimes in the archives there are such findings. But only then we will speak categorically.
    Tarle “History of imperialism”

    It’s been 90 years since then. Order of Pashich (or Serbian king) found? If not then “never has been proven the direct involvement of the Serbian government”.

    You call almost everything you disagree with a “lie.”

    will еxpress in a civilized way: this (your) statement
    Russia, by supporting Serbia, essentially wanted to humiliate Austria-Hungary (by forcing it to back down)”
    is wrong

    The ultimatum that Austria put forward to Serbia was drawn up in an extremely offensive form. Serbia accepted this ultimatum, with one exception. If Austria agreed – then it would be a great humiliation of Serbia (not Austria) and a diplomatic victory for Austria. But as we know it was decided that “es wird auch nichts schaden wenn daraus ein Krieg mit Russland entstehen soil”

    The German Social Democrats were an opposition party, from 1878 until 1888 in particular oppressed. So not exactly the same thing as the German government financing terrorists.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Socialist_Laws

    Well, let me also (to save time) quote Wikipedia
    In 1906 Piłsudski, with the knowledge and support of the Austrian authorities, founded a military school in Kraków for the training of Bojówki (Combat Teams),[2] a military arm of the Polish Socialist Party (or, specifically, its Revolutionary Fraction). In 1906 alone, the 750-strong Bojówki, operating in five-man units in the former Congress Poland, killed or wounded some 1,000 Russian officials.”

  532. Czechs and Slovaks were on the losing side in both World Wars.
    Average Austro-Hungarian soldiers by performance, employed against Serbs and Russians.

    In WW2, Germans rolled around in Czechoslovak manufactured trucks, tanks and halftracks, used Skoda, Tatra and CZ manufactured weapons. Slovaks even had a fairly commited satellite state.

    Resistance movement and anti-German sentiment, actions and sabotages – nonexistent.

    They fought no one for their borders and nation states, defeated no one.
    But they tried too much by trying to pass their local national Communists.

    Really, the most intelligent Slavs – maximum gains, nation states extending past their ethnic borders – all won with minimal losses and not even being on the winning side.
    Contrast with Serbia’s 50+% military age males dead in WW1 and 50+% of total dead in WW2 being under the age of 27 – that leaves a long lasting demographic and dysgenic effect.

    They have my admiration, and their rise since 1990s will continue well into the future.

  533. …Resistance movement and anti-German sentiment, actions and sabotages – nonexistent.

    Not quite true: Czechs killed Heydrich in 1942, the highest ranking Nazi assassinated. Slovaks had a relatively successful uprising in August 1944 (yeah, end of the war, I know, just like Normandy). In WWI about 100k Czechs and Slovaks changed sides, formed a Czechoslovak Legion and fought against the Habsburgs. So there was a bit of resistance, maybe just enough to be on the winning side. Czechoslovak communism was also quite mild with low costs and substantial country building and social benefits. We get it about right because we value reality and living ‘in truth’ over heroic antics.

    They have my admiration, and their rise since 1990s will continue well into the future.

    Thank you, I think we are among the 3-4 best positioned European nations. But I fully expect a full spectrum attack by the globo-homo fanatics, probably using our inherent weakness of valuing normal life over glory. They may use the more fanatical Poles to attack us for our relatively friendly relations with Russia. Poland is heavily re-arming and getting ready for a war, they will not attack either Russia or Germany (at least I hope so), what’s left is an attack on us in the south. It is a crazy neighbourhood.

  534. Mitleser says

    Why rejoice at the death of a competent and very high-ranking officier with plans and enough willpower to preserve the monarchy if you are an officier who claims to be loyal to said monarchy?

  535. Nah, no possibility of Polish aggression against anyone. Their only target available, Russians, would wipe them off the map in an even shorter time than Partitions and 1939.
    PiS is based in terms of average European party, while young Poles are very based.

    If anything, Poles will witness an internal split between pozz/globohomo/Atlanticist footmen and Husaria aficionados, nationalists. I can only guess how obnoxious Polish bugmen, urban liberals, transition profiteer descendants are.

    V4 will hopefully preserve what peak Old Europe was.

  536. “They fought no one for their borders and nation states, defeated no one.” – Slovaks helped to defeat Poland in 1939 and then they defeated their Jewish population.

    But you are correct that there was no sabotage to speak of. And Heydrich assassination had to be arranged in London and its purpose was to provoke German retaliations agains Czechs who were cozying up to Germans too much for the taste of Czech government in London and possibly in their foresight they were preparing an alibi for the expulsion of Germans after the war so sovoks like Beckow could justify it.

  537. “the more fanatical Poles to attack us for our relatively friendly relations with Russia”

    https://spectator.sme.sk/c/20171945/slovaks-trust-russia-the-most-poles-the-least.html
    24. May 2016

    Apart from Slovakia, Czechs place the most trust in France (59 percent) followed by Poland, Great Britain and Austria (all 58 percent). Hungary scored 37 percent. Poles trust Slovaks (69 percent) the most, followed by Czechs (61 percent) and Hungarians (61 percent), while Hungary is most trusting of Germany (62 percent) followed by Poland (58 percent). Czechs and Slovaks were together in fourth place at 40 percent, TASR wrote.

    Slovaks, for example, trusts the USA the least (with only 27 percent of respondents), while they trust Russia the most (with 31 percent of respondents). Conversely, Poles trust the USA (50 percent) the most and Russia (9 percent) the least. Czechs and Hungarians lie somewhere in between with greater trust in the USA (41 and 33 percent, respectively) and lower trust in Russia (16 and 17 percent, respectively), TASR wrote.

    The trust shown by V4 countries in each other as well as in other EU states varies. Almost 80 percent of both Czechs and Slovaks trust each other. Next in line in terms of trust among Slovaks are Austrians (49 percent) and Poles (40 percent). Hungarians were in ninth place (30 percent).

    When it comes to V4 cooperation, Slovaks are most likely to see this as meaningful (70 percent). Second come Czechs (50 percent), followed by Hungarians (43 percent) and Poles (41 percent). Publicly presented interest in Slovakia’s political representation in V4 cooperation could be responsible for the high figure.

  538. …no possibility of Polish aggression against anyone.

    They are nor rational. Their leadership and elites regularly drop into a fatalistic miasma of self-pity, desperate yearning to be liked by the West, and philosophical ennui. They are easy to use and they will be again.

    There is an old rule: if one spends long enough time preparing to fight someone, they will eventually do it. The situation takes over. This applies equally to the West. The rabid build-up of hatred has a momentum of its own at this point, somebody is going to be attacked.

  539. …in their foresight they were preparing an alibi for the expulsion of Germans after the war

    In 1942? that seems far fetched. I also don’t only ‘justify’ it, it was a minimum that could be done, my preference would be a bit more drastic. Mass murder must be responded to with equal force. The Sudetens who got away (like yourself maybe), should be happy that it wasn’t worse.

    (And what the f..k is ‘sovok’? I told you before that it means nothing in my world, we don’t have any idea what or who it is.)

  540. You suffer from an overload of emotion about these topics, so you lash out at anything that doesn’t fit your Habsburg-Galicia loving image of the world. In doing so you have made some really foolish statements about Habsburg responsible for the Italian Rennaissance, totally misrepresented the history of Prague, etc…

    You also seem to think that only California-Texas will go non-European in US – somehow miraculously, the new migrants won’t over time move and simply take over the whole country. Well, that does look like grasping for straws.

    Combining your poor education with your rabid emotions is a bad way to have a discussion. It is not all black-and-white, and historical events – like the Habsburg collapse – happened for a good reason. Your sophomoric attachment to ‘wiki’ is telling…maybe you should look into who created and maintains wiki texts. Like a provincial ignoramus you believe anything that the ‘authorities’ put in front of you. So our discussion is pointless, maybe next time.

  541. Croats weren’t very nationalistic on average during that period.

    Okay, but I was discussing the ones who were slaughtering all of those Serbs. If not for that nationalist vanguard, would regular Croats get into a frenzy of mass slaughter?

    But then you might recognize a familiar pattern and the role of (foreign, imposed) religion and foreign power meddling.

    Yes, the Moscow Church in Ukraine 🙂

  542. The crown prince quite openly hated Hungarians. Why should we have been “grateful” to Franz Ferdinand?

    He wanted to liberate Slavs from the Hungarians and was willing to use military force to make sure that the Hungarians did not prevent him.

    It is understandable that Hungarians would dislike him, from this perspective, although in the long run it would have been good for the Hungarians.

    The one who is really ungrateful here is a Slovak like Beckow, who seems to hate Franz Ferdinand.

  543. I also don’t only ‘justify’ it, it was a minimum that could be done, my preference would be a bit more drastic. Mass murder must be responded to with equal force.

    What mass murder? In Slovakia? In Slovakia that w/o asking sent troops to invade the USSR?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia_during_World_War_II
    Slovakia did not participate at the start of the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union, which began on June 22, 1941. Hitler did not ask for help from Slovakia, however the Slovaks decided to send an expeditionary force.

    Slovak 1st and 2nd division spent several years on occupied territories of USSR. Their participation in retributions and reprisals against Soviet civilian populations was whitewashed from history but it is a safe bet that they killed more civilians there than German troops killed in Slovakia.

    Slovakia that enjoyed some degree of sovereignty did nothing to shelter its Jews but instead it did everything it could to have its Jews exterminated?

    Approximately 60,000 of the 95,000 Slovakian Jews were deported[by whom?] and sent to death camps in German-occupied Poland before 1942. Then the Slovak government made a deal with Germany for the Jews to be “delivered” in exchange for needed workers for the Slovak National Socialist war economy. After the Wannsee Conference of 20 January 1942 the Germans agreed with the Slovaks’ proposal and the two parties came to an agreement by which the Slovak Republic had to pay a fixed amount for each Jew deported. In return, Germany promised that the Jews would never return to Slovakia.

    In 1965 a Czechoslovak film Obchod na korze got Oscar for Best Foreign Language film. You did not have Jews left to play Ms. Lautmannová so a Polish-Jewish actress Ida Kaminska played her. Her Slovak counterpart was the character of Anton “Tóno” Brtko. He kills her and then in panic-remorse he hangs himself.

    Czechs showed too much enthusiasm for persecution of Germans after WWII which was incommensurate with what they suffered from Germans however unlike Slovaks they did not demonstrate en masse participation in sending Jews to their extermination and did not provide troops to help Hitler.

    You Slovaks should keep your mouth shut on the subject of justice and punishment concerning the deeds during WWII. Show a basic decency and remain silent. You don’t have to hang yourself like Tóno, but just keep your mouth shut.

  544. Okay, but I was discussing the ones who were slaughtering all of those Serbs. If not for that nationalist vanguard, would regular Croats get into a frenzy of mass slaughter?

    They could have easily been incited by religious fervor too. You decry nationalism for causing the world wars, but historically European wars of religion were at least as brutal and often more so. Germany alone would lose something like 25 million people if the world wars were as destructive as the Thirty Years War. People slaughter each other for all sorts of reasons, it’s hypocritical to ignore cases when the reason is something you happen to believe in. It’s also dishonest to pretend you’re not a nationalist just because you’re not a banderist. Your comment about the MP only makes sense from a nationalist perspective.

  545. some really foolish statements about Habsburg responsible for the Italian Rennaissance

    Lie.

    I never claimed Hapsburgs were responsible for Italian Rennaisance. That would be absurd.

    I stated that they did not make the parts of Italy they controlled poorer than other parts of Italy, as one would expect plunderers to do.

    totally misrepresented the history of Prague

    I quoted non-Czech sources word for word. If your myths are not believed outside your country, the problem is with the world, not me.

    Like a provincial ignoramus you believe anything that the ‘authorities’ put in front of you

    Perfect description of your attachment to Czech fairytales about history. Provincial and ignorant.

    So our discussion is pointless, maybe next time.

    You are again afraid to address the Sovok influence upon your country 🙂

  546. They could have easily been incited by religious fervor too. You decry nationalism for causing the world wars, but historically European wars of religion were at least as brutal and often more so. Germany alone would lose something like 25 million people if the world wars were as destructive as the Thirty Years War.

    Yes, Protestantism has also been very evil.

    However it at least maintained a regenerative function that nationalism and Communism lacked. Germany recovered from the terrible results of the Holy Inquisition not nipping the Protestant heresy in the bud. It may never recover from the effects of nationalism and communism.

    It’s also dishonest to pretend you’re not a nationalist just because you’re not a banderist.

    Banderism is a particularly noxious form of nationalism but I am a conservative. Note that in some cases nationalism can e a lesser evil.

    Your comment about the MP only makes sense from a nationalist perspective.

    Imposition of MP was opposed by locals in Ukraine in the 17th century. This was pre-nationalism. One can oppose foreign meddling and destruction of local traditions on non-nationalistic grounds.

  547. What mass murder?

    Germans committed mass murder in Czechia by murdering tens of thousands of civilians, incl. whole villages like Lidice, Lezaky,.. The post-WWII retribution was directly related to that, and it was more than just. Compared to German behaviour, the retribution was quite mild.

    Germans also committed mass atrocities in Slovakia when fighting against Slovak uprising in1944-45, again mass murder of civilians, burning villages, etc…

    You try to mix it with the behaviour of Slovak WWII state – that I don’t support, although I understand why it was created and why it was the least terrible option available at that time.

    That has nothing to do with post-WWII retribution against Germans. You want us to be quiet because what Germans did in central-eastern Europe was beyond pale, beyond anything that any other nation or group did there throughout history. We will not be silent about it. And if you try again, well, remember how you ended up last time. Benes Degrees were appropriate and final. If anything the Sudeten Germans got of lightly after WWII.

  548. I never claimed Hapsburgs were responsible for Italian Rennaisance. That would be absurd.

    You kind of did, now you are trying to walk it back because it is indeed absurd. Your other ideas about Franz Ferdinand willing to ‘use force against Hungarians…‘ are equally absurd. There is zero historical evidence for it. Ferdinand was married to a Czech woman (Chotek, low level nobility – that’s why his marriage was morganatic), he disliked Hungarians – but to go from that to ‘would use force‘ is misunderstanding how it worked in A-H at that time. He was also an expansionist with regard to Balkans. He was shot because he was a de facto occupier prancing around in a military parade in a recently conquered land. If there ever is a justification for killing a tyrant, that was it.

    I will stay away from discussing Czechs or Prague with you since you have literally no understanding of it.

  549. Germans committed mass murder in Czechia by murdering tens of thousands of civilians, incl. whole villages like Lidice, Lezaky,

    Another post by Beckow, another lie.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le%C5%BE%C3%A1ky

    On 24 June, approximately 500 SS troops and policemen surrounded Ležáky, removed all inhabitants, and the village was destroyed. All 33 adults (both men and women) were shot.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice_massacre

    In reprisal for the assassination of Reich Protector Reinhard Heydrich in the late spring of 1942,[1] all 173 males from the village who were over 15 years of age were executed on 10 June 1942.[2] Another 11 men who were not in the village were arrested and executed soon afterwards, along with several others who were already under arrest.[2] The 184 women and 88 children were deported to concentration camps; a few children who were considered racially suitable and thus eligible for Germanisation were handed over to SS families and the rest were sent to the Chełmno extermination camp where they were gassed.[2]

    Altogether about 5,000 civilian victims of German massacres not “tens of thousands”

    https://www.radio.cz/en/section/special/heroes-or-cowards-czechs-in-world-war-ii

    “It’s true: no one foresaw just how extensive reprisals would be: in all 5, 000 people were killed.”

    :::::::::::

    A list of massacres add up tp less than 5,000:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_Czech_Republic#Massacres_during_World_War_II

    :::::::::::

    The Slovak Sovok can’t help but lie.

  550. Altogether about 5,000 civilian victims of German massacres not “tens of thousands”

    That was referring specifically to reprisals for the assassination of Heydrich. The end of your article states that “It’s thought that over a hundred a fifty thousand Czechs, half of them Jewish, lost their lives in the course of the war”. I can’t find much reliable information on the number of ethnic Czechs who died as a result of German occupation, but tens of thousands certainly seems reasonable. That was in addition to the German plans for the complete destruction of the Czech nation through Germanisation, which would have involved the killing of many more who resisted or who the Germans considered subhuman.

    The number of Sudetenland Germans who were killed very likely was less than the number of Czechs, and considering they were a totally hostile population their expulsion was both necessary and just. The creation of homogeneous nation states in eastern Europe was one of the very few acts of Stalin that had lasting good.

  551. You kind of did,

    Lie. My words about northern Italy and Hapsburgs –

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-82/#comment-3328434

    “They certainly didn’t harm it.”

    Followed by a map showing Hapsburg areas being richer than other parts of Italy, demonstrating that indeed they did not harm it.

    You then made up some nonsense and I corrected you in the reply to your post:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-82/#comment-3330707

    Your other ideas about Franz Ferdinand willing to ‘use force against Hungarians…‘ are equally absurd. There is zero historical evidence for it…He was shot because he was a de facto occupier prancing around in a military parade in a recently conquered land. If there ever is a justification for killing a tyrant, that was it.

    In preparation for his coming to power and Hungarian reaction to his plan of removing Slavs from Hungarian control he was placing loyal troops in Budapest and to depose Tisza.

    So you are simply displaying your lack of gratitude towards the man who wanted to free you.

    https://hungarytoday.hu/the-assassination-of-franz-ferdinand-the-archduke-who-despised-hungarians/

    Once emperor, Franz Ferdinand intended to create a three-member monarchy consisting of the Slavs, the Austrians, and Hungarians, to balance the “overpower” of Hungarians in the dualist state as he saw the 1867 Austro-Hungarian Compromise. He was determined to weaken the Hungarian power which he hated and believed was the barrier to change. “…the Hungarians are always traitors and take up arms against their ruler and the dynasty,” he wrote.

    In his eyes, the always “rebelling” Hungarians were the biggest obstacle to set his plans into motion. Franz Ferdinand often complained that in Hungary, the glorification of revolutionary hero Lajos Kossuth, the decline of the monarchical principle, and the dominance of the Freemasons and the Jewish people was prevalent.

    He regarded Gyula Andrássy, Foreign Minister and especially the “patented traitor” Prime Minister István Tisza, as representatives of the Hungarian independence who needed to be stopped – if necessary – even with military force.

    :::::::::::::

    FF also opposed Balkan wars:

    http://mentalfloss.com/article/57308/wwi-centennial-franz-ferdinand-wants-peace-balkans

    So he was an obstacle to various negative forces.

  552. I said:

    murdered tens of thousands civilians

    Massacres were a subset of the killings. You do understand what a ‘subset’ means, don’t you? if not, check with the chicana math geniuses who have been migrating to US, they will explain it to you.

    Here is wikipedia:

    violent German reprisals to the Czech resistance initiatives and by over 360.000 Czechoslovak wartime casualties.

    Big enough for you?

    Moron.

  553. That was referring specifically to reprisals for the assassination of Heydrich. The end of your article states that “It’s thought that over a hundred a fifty thousand Czechs, half of them Jewish, lost their lives in the course of the war”

    Those don’t refer to massacres by Germans.

    I can’t find much reliable information on the number of ethnic Czechs who died as a result of German occupation, but tens of thousands certainly seems reasonable.

    Wiki lists a bunch of massacres, the numbers don’t add up to even 5,000. The most infamous ones had only a few hundred. You won’t get to “tens of thousands.”

    That was in addition to the German plans for the complete destruction of the Czech nation through Germanisation, which would have involved the killing of many more who resisted or who the Germans considered subhuman.

    This part is correct. None of it was implemented however.

    The number of Sudetenland Germans who were killed very likely was less than the number of Czechs

    It was likely more, the question is, twice as many, or three times as many Germans.

  554. violent German reprisals to the Czech resistance initiatives and by over 360.000 Czechoslovak wartime casualties.

    Wartime casualties are not massacres or murders.

    Your citation actually separates the violent reprisals from the casualties.

    Radio PRague stated ““It’s thought that over a hundred a fifty thousand Czechs, half of them Jewish, lost their lives in the course of the war”.”

    So 75,000 Czechs died in the war, only a subset of whom were killed.

  555. …So 75,000 Czechs died in the war, only a subset of whom were killed

    What does that even mean? They were killed, murdered, massacred, taken to concentration camps, they didn’t die in car accidents. And there were tens of thousands of them. And you don’t seem to consider Czechs Jews as part of the victims, why? Czechs had no army in WWII – the victims listed were civilians.

    How many Sudeten Germans died after WWII? You said that 2-3 times Czech victims and that would be 300,000, or up to half a million. That’s absurd. As is your poor understanding of Central Europe and its history.

    You are really embarrassing yourself. Are you by any chance a Nazi?

  556. What does that even mean? They were killed, murdered, massacred, taken to concentration camps, they didn’t die in car accidents.

    5,000 were massacred according to Radio Prague.

    There was war and uprisings, people die in wars without being massacred or executed.

    If you had a concrete number you would have provided it. You failed to do so.

    How many Sudeten Germans died after WWII? You said that 2-3 times Czech victims and that would be 300,000, or up to half a million

    5,000 Czechs massacred. Even you should be able to do the math.

    And you don’t seem to consider Czechs Jews as part of the victims, why?

    We were discussing Czech victims.

    Are you by any chance a Nazi?

    If I was you would be groveling and offering to kill Jews, that’s what your people did for Nazis.

  557. Look, you can’t walk away from your crazy Nazi-like writing. I said that ‘tens of thousands Czech civilians were murdered by Germans in WWII‘ – best estimate is 50,000 to 100,000. That’s simply reality. Your sophistry that ‘it was a war’, or similar nonsense doesn’t get you anywhere. No, it wasn’t a ‘war’, Czechia was relatively peaceful for most of the war, these were German killings of civilians.

    Germans in Czechia between 1939 and 1945 brutally murdered tens of thousands of civilians. After WWII they received a just retribution – as they did in France, Poland, Norway,… You are a weasel unable to admit to it due to some sick ethno-Habsburg-Galician fantasies that you grew up in. I would suggest that you don’t share these ‘sophisticated’ US suburbia idiocies with anyone in Prague.

  558. ‘tens of thousands Czech civilians were murdered by Germans in WWII‘

    And until you can find a source showing that, it can be considered your usual lie. So far we have a source providing 5,000 Czechs killed by Nazis.

    Your sophistry that ‘it was a war’,

    There really was a war and uprising. You didn’t know? People killed when buildings collapse during fighting are not murdered/massacred/executed. People killed during Soviet arrival by Soviets weren’t murdered by Germans. People killed in crossfire, disease, etc. Only a subset of ~75,000 Czech casualties were victims of murder. The concrete number we have so far is 5,000.

    If you were right, you would provide a source with number killed, not whine about “sophistry.” I guess you naively believe what you were taught in your Sovok-occupied school.

    Germans in Czechia between 1939 and 1945 brutally murdered tens of thousands of civilians.

    Jewish ones.

    I would suggest that you don’t share these ‘sophisticated’ US suburbia idiocies with anyone in Prague.

    Czechoslovaks are obsequious to those from stronger nations. You yourself are proud of it. It’s why, if Austria-Hungary wasn’t losing the World War, there would have been no Czech rebellion. So they would smile and agree.

  559. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Yes lol, Monkeydonianism is very cringe.

    They literally think for real that they are all the descendants of Aleksander the Great and they plagiarize Greek history, culture and civilization by claiming Aristotle among other things. It is literally state mandated brainwashing where they teach them complete pseudo-history in schools. They also suppress any form of Serb or Bulgarian cultural influences for obvious reasons. A “country” that changes its name 3 times in 30 years can literally by no definition be considered a real country. What sucks with the Prespa agreement is that the Greeks had to effectively accept to acknowledge and legitimize Macedonian Svidomy. Of course, the whole Prespa agreement was made by Greek and Monkeydonian puppet leaders to quicken “Macedonian” integration into the EU, NATO and Euro-Atlantic structures. Still, at least saying “North Macedonia” is less cringe than FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia).

    A Serb-Bulgarian partition of Vardar Macedonia is long overdue.

  560. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Come back to this thread once you’ve cured yourself of the mental illness of Monkeydonianism by rediscovering your Serb or Bulgarian identity. For all the problems with Bulgarians, one can say that at least they are a real people, unlike Monkeydonians.

    Even Ukranian Svidomy is literally more relevant, important and theoretically legitimate than Macedonian Svidomy lol. That says a lot …

  561. So far we have a source providing 5,000 Czechs killed by Nazis.

    No, I showed you above the official number (wikipedia):

    violent German reprisals to the Czech resistance initiatives and by over 360.000 Czechoslovak wartime casualties.

    You are off by two orders of magnitude. But I think that being really bad in math is not you biggest problem. Well, it takes all kinds…

  562. violent German reprisals to the Czech resistance initiatives and by over 360.000 Czechoslovak wartime casualties.

    This particular statement is unsourced.

    But further in the article is a sourced statement. Funny how you “forgot” to quote it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Czechoslovakia#German_policy

    “It is estimated that about 345,000 World War II casualties were from Czechoslovakia, 277,000 of them Jews.”

    So 68,00 wartime casualties who were not Jews. No number was provided for the subset of those 68,000 casualties who were massacred or murdered.

    It’s telling that few sources mention Czechs killed by Germans. Here is all that Britannica says abut Czechs killed by Germans during the war:

    “After the assassination, the Nazis proclaimed martial law, executed hundreds of Czechs without trial, and destroyed the village of Lidice near Prague. ”

    No mention of tens of thousands killed.

    So clearly that number was quite small and not noteworthy.

    We are still waiting for some number, and you keep failing to provide it 🙂

  563. Also, it’s funny how desperate you are for Czechs to be victims of Nazis without paying the price of, you know, actually resisting them, to any significant degree.

  564. This is not about ‘victimhood‘. The discussion is about the propriety of what Czechs did to the Sudeten Germans after 1945. Based on the data, it was definitely the right thing to do. So stop belly-aching and accept the consequences.

    The number of Czechs murdered by Nazis was between 50,000 and 100,000; that matches the end of the war estimate of 75k, or the British Encyclopedia’s 68k. In addition more than quarter million Jews were murdered, most had Czech citizenship, so I am puzzled why you insist on excluding them.

    That is ‘tens of thousands civilian victims‘. In comparison, even the most ambitious all-inclusive number of communist victims is around 500, incl. WWII war criminals, bank robbers for ”freedom’, airplane hijackers, communist power struggle losers, etc…). Numbers are numbers, they don’t suit you so you are throwing a temper tantrum.

  565. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Austria absolutely paid the price of significantly resisting the Nazis. Austria offered the most intense and fierce resistance to the Nazis in all of Europe by accepting the 1938 Anschluss with a high level of popular approval. Otto Von Habsburg and the Habsburg family valiantly and honorably resisted the Nazis when they bravely fled to the United States.

  566. When in 1881 Alexander II was killed by terrorists, the terrorists behind this murder (who took refuge from the gallows in Europe)

    Well, in your style I could say: “that’s a lie.” Everyone involved in the murder of Alexander II were arrested hanged in Russia

    The terrorists who directly committed the murder in 1881 were hanged (because they could not escape to Europe).
    But for example (one example among very numerous) terrorist Leo Hartmann who was preparing the bomb for the assassination of Alexander II and directly participated in the attempted assassination of Alexander II in 1879 – was arrested (at the request of Russia) by the French police, but soon released as a hero and freedom fighter. He moved to England where he lived as a hero.

    The terrorist Stepnyak-Kravchinsky who cut off the head to the police officer

    You make it sound like Stepnyak-Kravchinsky was involved in the murder of Alexander II
    He killed a chief of the Russian secret police.

    It makes sense to answer what I write, not what I don’t write

  567. Anonymoose says

    Spisarevski is a Bulgarian not a Monkeydonian.

  568. Spisarevski says

    How the fuck did you decide I am a Monkeydonian…

    your Serb or Bulgarian identity

    Nice try, even putting Serb first. Macedonians are Bulgarians, and the few serbs there have got to go.

    Even Ukranian Svidomy is literally more relevant, important and theoretically legitimate than Macedonian Svidomy lol.

    They are exactly the same.

  569. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    My take is that there isn’t much the Hungarians could’ve done to not end up getting Trianoned.

    Probably in 1848 they could’ve avoided angering the Serb (most relevant), Slovak and Romanian populations by granting them language and so on rights. At the very least, they could’ve had more Serbs fighting loyally for them, instead of against them, or non-intervening. Really, 1848 went wrong because Nicholas I of Russia thought it was smart to preserve the Habsburgs. Still, besides relations with ethnic minorities, Hungarians couldn’t have done much then. After that, they could’ve done even less. They probably could’ve had a bunch of volunteers training go abroad to train in Russia, Italy and so on to overthrow the Habsburgs and free Hungary, similar to the Czechs and Slovaks in order to improve their position post WW1. Still though, with the 1867 compromise, Hungary was effectively tied to the Austrians and Germans who would get all the benefits while Hungarians would get all the negatives.

    In general, Hungary was and is cursed by geography to be stuck between Slavs, Muslims and Germans with all their conflicts between each other across the centuries. Especially because Hungary is a massive plain open field that can easily be crossed by more powerful occupiers. Peoples’ with their population base and centers on flat terrain and open fields either have to achieve dominance and control over their neighbors to be secure, or have to be very good at being servile to and diplomatic with more powerful foreigners.

    As for Republika Srpska and Montenegro, those aren’t really in a very great position. Republika Srpska was hard won and fought for through 3 years of war against the armies of 2 hostile ethnic groups plus the intelligence agencies, paramilitaries, terrorists, jihadists, mercenaries and armies of half the planet. Even Milosevic imposed sanctions on Republika Srpska in 1995 while Yeltsin did nothing. Republika Srpska could’ve easily been much larger if Milosevic didn’t betray them. Still, Milorad Dodik is ironically doing more to preserve its political sovereignty than Vucic is doing to preserve Serbia’s.

    Montenegro is sort of in an even worse state. It was separated from Serbia by “voting” in 2006 in order to cut off Serbia and Russia from the Mediterranean by annexing it into NATO (John McCain annexed them into NATO in 2017). The Russians were dumb/treacherous (?) enough to actually support it. The referendum, even though 50%+ voted for separation, was completely staged with lots of voter fraud, voter intimidation by threatening people with violence (plus actual violence against pro-Serbs), plus with losing their jobs and incomes. Milo Djukanovic is the “leader” of Montenegro. He is literally a criminal thug mafia leader (even collaborates with Shiptar/Albanian criminals) who has been pushing anti-Serb brainwashing for decades, and still is. Recently (A few months ago), he began trying to steal the property and land of the Serbian Orthodox Church by pushing the heretic sect “Montenegrin” Church in order to disenfranchise Serbs and brainwash everyone in Montenegro to be anything but Serbs. All of this is unfortunately effective since only around 25% of people in Montenegro still consider themselves Serbs (according to some statistics).

    In schools it’s forbidden to learn the historical truth that Montenegrins are simply a regional variation of Serbs that managed to get their own autonomy from the Ottomans and then independence by living in hills and mountains with tribal social organization while fighting frequently against Turks/Shiptars/Muslims. Many of the leaders of Montenegro from the 15th century and onward, stated a variation of their Serb identity, by acknowledging it, boasting about it, supporting union with other Serbs and even supporting other Serb territorial claims. One of the greatest philosophers and literary writers of Serbian culture is a “Montenegrin” Prince Pishop called Petar II Petrovic Njegos, who was publicly proud of his Serb identity in his literary work and personal correspondence letters. The historical evidence is very strong and overwhelming.

    Still, there’s more history to Montenegro and it’s a bit complicated since Serbs in Montenegro are very tribal (I don’t think most of the world cares about Montenegro enough to go through it all).

  570. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    It’s hard to tell with them.

  571. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    You’re going to achieve so much by driving those Serbs out while you have almost a million muslims in your country with the Turks, openly pursuing neo-Ottomanism, on your border financing your Muslim population, aren’t you?

    The Turks have already strong-armed the Greeks out of North Cyprus and some Aegean islands. Don’t think something similar can’t happen to Bulgaria. Give up on it. For your own good. Vardar Macedonia never was and never will be fully Bulgarian. If Bulgarians seriously go for such a venture, you’re going to lose like you’ve always lost for the last 1500 years in your history.

    You can cite a bunch of demographic/ethnographic “research” done by a bunch of West Europeans obsessed with de-legitimizing Serb claims to Macedonia, but it still wont’ change anything. Same goes for all the Belgrade and Eastern Serbia is “rightfully” Bulgarian nonsense.

    I can get that you’re upset about the 1885 war which is completely understandable. Also about losing the 2nd Balkan War and picking the wrong side in WW1 and WW2.

    Nothing good will happen for either Serbs or Bulgarians if they decide to fight with each other. Plus, we both have our own more urgent problems to deal with anyway.

  572. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Yes, in their basic fundamental nature, both Ukranian and Macedonian Svidomies are the same.

  573. The number of Czechs murdered by Nazis was between 50,000 and 100,000; that matches the end of the war estimate of 75k, or the British Encyclopedia’s 68k.

    According to those sources these were not the numbers of Czechs murdered by Nazis but the numbers of Czech casualties during the war. You are lying again.

    So far the highest figure we have found for the number of Czechs actually murdered by Nazis is 5,000.

    There were more Dutch casualties during the war than Czech, yet this does not mean that all of those 100,000 non-Jewish casualties were actually murdered by Nazis:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_in_World_War_II#Casualties

    By the end of the war, 205,901 Dutch men and women had died of war-related causes. The Netherlands had the highest per capita death rate of all Nazi-occupied countries in Western Europe (2.36%).[48] Over half (107,000) were Holocaust victims

  574. Someone like Beckow can claim that every Austrian civilian casualty during World War II was killed by the Nazis to “prove” that Austria was victimized by the Nazis.

  575. What I enjoy most about these Open Threads is the Slavic brotherhood.

  576. The idea of Belgrade being Serb rather than Bulgarian is also an example of Svidomism. These are Serbia’s original borders:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Balkans850.png

  577. But for example (one example among very numerous) terrorist Leo Hartmann who was preparing the bomb for the assassination of Alexander II and directly participated in the attempted assassination of Alexander II in 1879 – was arrested (at the request of Russia) by the French police, but soon released as a hero and freedom fighter. He moved to England where he lived as a hero.

    So was he an agent of the French or British government, armed by them and were his actions organized by French and British intelligence?

    If not, the case is irrelevant.

  578. reiner Tor says

    It’s very difficult to find information on this guy in English. Apparently he was guilty of another (unsuccessful) attempt on the life of the emperor. It’s also a different case in that the terrorist was in fact arrested, but released. Since it’s difficult to find English language sources on the case, I’d guess that some liberal court might’ve secured his release, and not the government. (France was already moving close to Russia which it needed as an ally against Germany, so the government might not have been entirely happy with it.) It’s a bit different from the military intelligence organizing terrorism.

    I said that Russia would’ve also wanted to start a war if the intelligence agency of a small neighbor organized the murder of the heir to the throne. And that it would’ve been a humiliation not to.

    So far the only good example might be the support for Pilsudski’s regiment by Austria-Hungary, though I don’t think it’s really terrorism, I can agree that it was probably casus belli. Of course, Austria-Hungary was a major power, and Russia in the turmoil of revolution was not in a position in 1906 to start a war.

  579. This is not about ‘victimhood‘. The discussion is about the propriety of what Czechs did to the Sudeten Germans after 1945…In addition more than quarter million Jews were murdered, most had Czech citizenship, so I am puzzled why you insist on excluding them.

    Sudeten Germans were not slaughtered and expelled on behalf of Jewish victims or the state of Israel, but on behalf of Czechs and their state.

    You repeatedly lie by referring to total Czech casualties during the war (about 68,000-75,000) as murdered people, but the highest actual estimate of Czechs murdered has been 5,000.

    This compared to the 16,000 – 20,000+ thousand Sudeten Germans killed by Czechs during their ethnic cleansing.

    To be sure, populations with strong support for Nazis whose policies called for ethnically cleansing others, probably deserved to be expelled from their lands after they lost the war they unleashed, but mass killing of civilians during the process of expulsion was criminal.

  580. If while visiting Crimea, Putin or whoever the president-elect of Russia will be would be killed in an operation organized and planned by the head of Ukraine’s SBU by a team armed by SBU and sent to Crimea for that purpose, I suspect the Russian posters here would have a different attitude towards Ukraine than they have towards Serbia and would support actions by Russia that they did not support by Austria-Hungary.

    If elements of Ukraine’s government were to organize such a criminal act I would not blame the Russian state for taking extreme counter-measures.

  581. The Czechs were only in wartime because of German aggression. And Czechia was not subject to major battles or rebellions until the end of the war. I don’t see how you can handwave away every Czech casualty that wasn’t put up to a wall and shot. They were still victims of the Germans either way.

    Here’s what I found on Czech wikipedia (excluding Jews and Roma):

    Execution : A minimum of 8,237 “officially” executed persons. Their actual state is probably higher, some records have not been preserved (eg public executions at the end of the war, etc., the actual number can be about 10 000 people)

    Victims of concentration camps : about 20,000 people

    Partisan Victims : around 500 people

    Victims of forced labor : at least 3,461 verified cases, the actual number is higher

    Fallen and murdered in the May uprising of the Czech people : over 8,000 people

    Anti-fascist victims in the border region : at least 1,000 people

    Victims from the Czech and Polish populations in Těšín : about 2,000 people

    So at the absolute minimum 43198 dead and probably more.

  582. Please stop using that propaganda word ‘Slavic’. The correct term is ‘Macedonic’.

  583. I asked Beckow, “We are still waiting for some number, and you keep failing to provide it “, and he failed to come through.

    You have done what he was incapable of doing.

    Here’s what I found on Czech wikipedia (excluding Jews and Roma):

    Source was non-academic. One can find Ukrainian non-academic sources writing about 7 or 10 million starved to death by Communists, so what?

    However the Czech wikpedia article has a link to an academic source:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20080130210120/http://www.kcprymarov.estranky.cz/clanky/druha-svetova-valka/jak-to-bylo-se-ztratami-cs_-obyvatel-za-2_-sv_-valky

    8,500 executions
    20,000 died in prison and concentration camps
    3,00 died in “work” (I would assume this refers to forced labor)

    Casualties of anti-fascist struggle, casualties of an uprising, soldiers, died from bombing, etc. don’t count as civilians being murdered.

    So finally we have a source confirming that a little over 30,000 Czech civilians can be said to have been killed by the Germans. Although Beckow provided no data supporting his claim, his original statement about 10,000s of civilians killed by Germans was correct.

    Unfortunately, the numbers from this source confirm that Beckow’s subsequent claims that “the number of Czechs murdered by Nazis was between 50,000 and 100,000” have been exaggerations/lies.

    Earlier I had written in response to tens of thousands killed, “And until you can find a source showing that, it can be considered your usual lie. So far we have a source providing 5,000 Czechs killed by Nazis.” It can now be revised to 31,500. I retract my statement that “tens of thousands” of Czechs murdered was a lie. However, Beckow’s claims of 50,000 – 100,00 murdered is a lie.

  584. …compared to the 16,000 – 20,000+ thousand Sudeten Germans killed by Czechs during their ethnic cleansing.

    It was called an expulsion and the estimates I have seen are 30,000 killed. It was ugly, but necessary, there was noting criminal about it. Try to think through what the alternative would be: families of murderers, who supported them during committing those murders, treated with kid gloves and all around pretending that nothing happened. It would never work.

    It was much better for Czechs and Germans to get this out of the way and settle the historical balance. There is a firm boundary now, each has its own set of complaints, but in general there are friendly relations and peace.

    Adam listed estimates on civilian casualties – it was ‘tens of thousands of civilians‘. Get over your quasi-autistic hostility to reality, it will liberate you. Maybe. If not, watch as similar consequences for misdeeds play out in the current conflicts. We always win at the end.

  585. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Of course, what you’re ignoring here is that this was after Serbia was defeated by Bulgaria in a war.

    Serbia in the early 9th century:
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Serb_lands_in_the_9th_century_%28en%29.png

    Serbia in the 10th century:
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Serb_lands_in_the_10th_century_%28en%29.png

    Of course, the Ukranian Svidomy can only plagiarize Russian history to pretend they existed as anything more than some variation of Russians before their Svidomy kicked in at the start of the 20th century.

  586. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Also, give the Czechs back the Vienna and Austria that your inbred dynasty stole from them in the 13th century:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Karte_B%C3%B6hmen_unter_Ottokar_II.png

    Ottokar II of Bohemia will have his revenge. Vienna and Austria will be Czech again.

  587. …there isn’t much the Hungarians could’ve done to not end up getting Trianoned.

    Trianon was two things: dismantling Hungary, and drawing new borders among the successor states. After 1848, eventual dismantling probably could not be avoided given the demographics. The precise boundaries – and I think that bothers most Magyars more – were a result of a set of bad decisions between 1848-1918.

    Ruling a large country where your ethnic group is less than half of the population, insisting on a single Magyar language (after 1890’s), trying to avoid the inevitable by lying to yourself and others about the realities on the ground – well, that’s no way to run a country. Even today when Magyars look back they think that somehow they got screwed, that things could be reversed. They got screwed because they were too stubborn to work with the other nations as they were – that could had been done. Hungary collapsed of indigestion.

    Serbs are a slightly different case: there really wasn’t much they did that caused what happened to them. The enemies of Serbia were too numerous and there was almost no opposition from potential allies of Serbia. The feeding frenzy by everyone from Washington liberal fanatics, to Muslim supremacists, Germans and Austrians seeking revenge (for WWII?), Vatican and Croat opportunists, and the usual British and French mendacity – the fact that West and Moslems had not done more damage to Serbia is actually a kind of victory for the Serbs.

    The Balkan power-grab by West-Moslems will eventually unravel, and not only because it was about as evil as one can think of. It was also very stupid, creating un-winnable long-term situations and establishing precedents that made Western ideology unsustainable. Washington has tried to forget what they did to Serbia, after 9/11 and Crimea it is rather obvious that it was a fatal self-inflicted error. I don’t think Serbs should forget.

    And is with all proper pay-backs, the best way is to take it out on the weasel allies as they go down. Let’s look how well UK, France and Germany have done after their misguided promotion of Islamic mini-states in the Balkans, and with the pathological hatred of Serbs that eventually turned into hating the Russians. How well is that going for the West?

  588. Mr. Hack says

    Of course, the Ukranian Svidomy can only plagiarize Russian history to pretend they existed as anything more than some variation of Russians before their Svidomy kicked in at the start of the 20th century.

    If Ukrainians wanted to somehow prove to dimwitted interlocutors like you that they were different that Russians, why would they plagiarize Russian history? Did Michael Hrushevsky plagiarize Russian history?

  589. Spisarevski says

    If Bulgarians seriously go for such a venture, you’re going to lose like you’ve always lost for the last 1500 years in your history.

    ХАХАХАХА
    https://i.imgur.com/4XdXyTT.png

  590. Sorry to interrupt this fascinating Balkan and Ukrainian history discussion…

    50th anniversary of first moon landing is there. Why is Unz.com silent?
    Why is the first page not full of articles about the great moon hoax?

    We know why. In 1969, both USSR and China were well able to watch and observe the American moon landing, and they went along with it. They could completely discredit American capitalism and win Cold War in one stroke. And they did nothing.

    The conclusion is, if moon landings were fake, the whole Cold War was fake. All three super powers played together to fool the world.

    American Capitalism, Soviet Socialism, Chinese Maoism, were one and the same thing.

    USA, USSR, Red China, all were part of one plan, controlled by one mind.

    (((They))), whoewer (((they))) are, rule the world, control everyone and own everything. There is no hope at all.

    This is the blackest blackpill that even the most hardened conspiracy theorist would find difficult to swallow. We all understand why even Unz writers and commenters do not want to go there.

    https://i.4pcdn.org/x/1486562394121.jpg

  591. Mr. Hack says

    I congratulate you – aren’t you the one that already has dispensed of the first great conspiracy theory regarding the moon, that it wasn’t really made of Swiss cheese? Keep it up, you’ll soon win an award for being the greatest hoax buster of all time! 🙂

    https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/bQgmYznpTMa0YWE83KFY-jmWhCM=/340×0:3895×2666/2070×1164/filters:focal(340×0:3895×2666):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/47202952/mooncheese_hr.0.0.jpg

  592. LOL, no Belgrade in Serbia in those maps either.

  593. Gerard1234 says

    Ukrainian history discussion

    That is what is called an oxymoron

    In happier news, the President of Ukraine has announced plans for Ukropia to bid for the Olympic games (LOL)

  594. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    The truth is that things are very difficult in Serbia and for Serbs in general right now.

    Still, you are right. Everyone that has attacked and harmed Serbia is basically now losing because of inevitable historical processes that have little to do with Serbs. They will only continue to lose even more. Unlike with the Ottoman and Habsburg Empires, someone else besides Serbs can have fun with fighting, bleeding and dying to break the powers that be of our day. As everyone knows, with the West being overrun by migrants, diversity/multiculturalism, LGBTQ, bad economics and so on, their military occupation and other imposed garbage on the Balkans will soon become impossible to maintain. As for Balkan Muslims, they are actually extremely sterile and much poorer than everyone else in the Balkans (it’s true, as unbelievable to some as it may be). Serbs are actually demographically winning on Kosovo (more kids, less emigration compared to Shiptars/Muslims) although they are still subject to NATO and Muslim rule.

    The only problem is that it is still too early. More time must pass (between several years and a few decades) which means lots of patience is necessary. It’s also smart for Serbs to just keep their heads down, slowly recover and grow what we have right now up until our moment of revenge and victory comes. It is getting nearer with each passing day, but is still quite distant. After all, there are a lot of diaspora Serbs in the West that need to be rescued from the disaster unfolding there. Any foolishness would lead to millions of Serbs getting interned in a similar way to the Germans, Italians or Japanese during WW1 and WW2. This almost happened in the 1990’s. In hindsight, nuking this thread was a bit dumb since it was exactly the opposite of “keeping my head down”, but now it is what it is.

    Otherwise, thanks for the love Beckow. Slovaks <3. Visegrad 4 <3.

  595. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Of course, that ignores where in the next century Bulgaria got completely conquered and overrun by the Byzantines/Greeks. Basil II the Bulgarslayer completely destroyed you guys soon after in the 11th century.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_conquest_of_Bulgaria#Basil_II

    Plus, Serbs basically destroyed you at the Battle of Velbuzhd a few centuries later when you recovered from Greek occupation:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Velbazhd

    Again, my point still stands, you guys may win one or two engagements in a short time period, but you will always lose long term just like you have always lost long term in the past 1500 years.

  596. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    The Svidomy will always hate everyone who has what they don’t have. A real history, a real culture and a real civilization.

  597. Spisarevski says

    You literally lost every war, forget about medieval

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Bulgarian_War

    Check the numbers on this one
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Balkan_War

    Even when Russians fighting by your side
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dobrich

    Also the most embarrassing event in modern Balkan history marked by Serbs

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_army%27s_retreat_through_Albania

    Got so scared of fighting Bulgarians they literally RAN from the battlefield into Albania, and ran so fast that 240k of them died. No other nation in the history of the Balkans has pussied out this much

    “On 14 October, Kingdom of Bulgaria declared war on Serbia. With his troops vastly outnumbered and outgunned, Serbian Field Marshal Radomir Putnik ordered a full retreat of the Serbian military south and west through Allied Kingdom of Montenegro and into neutral Principality of Albania on 25 November 1915.”

  598. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    The 1885 war was deeply unpopular in Serbia, poorly planned, a product of Habsburg trickery and the Serbian army was composed of young inexperienced conscripts who thought they were going to fight Turks.

    You still lost the 2nd Balkan War. Serb casualties are only that high because of the cowardly Bulgarian night attack on Serbs that began the 2nd Balkan War.

    We beat you in the Battle of Kaymakchalan:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kaymakchalan

    Mind you, this is the same hill on which a monument to the battle was built after WW1. It had the heart of the deceased pro-Serb Swiss-German Scientist Archibald Reiss put in an urn on that monument. You Bulgarian cowards were so butthurt by this defeat, monument and the urn, that you destroyed it during your WW2 occupation.

    As for the Albanian Golgotha and retreat, that retreat was inevitable. Your puffing up of Bulgaria’s role in WW1 is pathetic. Germany was the only real force in the Balkans and Central Powers in WW1 overall. Serbia was attacked in 1915 by Austria-Hungary (Serbia successfully repelled Austria-Hungary 2 times in 1914) and Germany from the front with Bulgaria attacking from the flank, so it’s no wonder that Serbia got overrun. The Serbian army had no choice but to retreat, and for how disastrous it all was, it still managed to avoid encirclement. It also refused to surrender. The Serbian Army eventually came back as victors in 1918 where with 62,000 soldiers (mostly infantry) managed to cross 600 kilometres in 45 days and did so faster than French cavalry divisions. Of course, nobody is surprised that the “brave” Bulgarians folded instantly without the support of their German allies:
    http://www.serbia.com/about-serbia/serbia-history/world-war-one/decisive-breakthrough/

    Plus Dmitrovgrad and Bosilegrad are Serbian:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Neuilly-sur-Seine

  599. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Bulgarins can also have fun with enjoying the world’s highest rate of depopulation in this day and age:

    By the way, Bulgarians, please do everyone a favor and stop polluting the Balkans and the world with gay Gypsy Azis’s trash music:

  600. Mr. Hack says

    The Svidomy will always hate everyone who has what they don’t have. A real history, a real culture and a real civilization.

    You must be describing yourself, because great Ukrainian historians like Michael Hrushevsky clearly established to the world that Ukraine and Ukrainians do have a unique rich culture and history all their own. BTW, what nationality are you? Hrushevsky’s monumental 10 volume “History of Ukraine-Rus’ is considered his magnum opus and has been lauded throughout the whole world by scores of serious scholars, as a testament to the Ukrainian people. His scholarship was impecable, laden with an anbundamce of detailed footnotes assembled from many different primary sources.

  601. It was called an expulsion and the estimates I have seen are 30,000 killed. It was ugly, but necessary, there was noting criminal about it

    Killing 30,000 civilians was criminal. Many of them – often teenagers – were simply taken to the square and shot.

    Expulsion was another story. As I’ve said before, a population that voted overwhelmingly for Nazis and their program probably can’t complain if they lose their lands.

    Try to think through what the alternative would be: families of murderers, who supported them during committing those murders, treated with kid gloves and all around pretending that nothing happened.

    I suspect you don’t feel the same way about Commie sympathizers (yes, I know Commies were not very lethal in Czechoslovakia, but in Russia, Ukraine, Baltics, Poland…)

    Adam listed estimates on civilian casualties – it was ‘tens of thousands of civilians‘.

    Civilians murdered was a little over 30,000. Casualties were around 70,000. Don’t mix the two.

    So Czech murdered about as many Germans, as Germans murdered Czechs.

  602. LOL, Balkan “culture.”

  603. anonymous coward says

    They could completely discredit American capitalism and win Cold War in one stroke.

    Eh, no. How do you imagine this? Brezhnev goes on TV and says that the filthy capitalists didn’t really go the moon, photo pictures notwithstanding?

    All that would do is just make Brezhnev into an even more laughingstock than he already was.

    Moreover, once the Soviets start talking about the moon landing, USA and other dissidents would start talking about Gagarin’s flight, and the whole shitshow would degenerate into a race to the bottom with no benefit or sense.

    The conclusion is, if moon landings were fake, the whole Cold War was fake.

    Well, no shit. USA and USSR were on friendlier terms than USA and Russia are today.

    Also there’s the pesky fact that USSR’s industry was upgraded using American money and technology, and the fact that the two were allies during WWII, and their cooperation in space flight and nuclear weapon proliferation, the fact that USSR was an enemy of communist (!) China, their unanimous agreement in ‘decolonization’, etc., etc.

  604. There’s really no luck involved, just fantastic scholarship acknowledged by other world class historians:

    Excepts from Reviewers’ Comments:
    “[Volume 1] is a magnificent annotated translation…of Hrushevsky’s magnum opus…Frank Sysyn’s twenty-page general introduction to the translation project is almost enough on its own to justify purchase of this book.”

    David Saunders,
    European History Quarterly 28, 1998

    “Hrushevsky’s History is simply indispensable to all students of early East Slavic History…. One can only applaud its dissemination and look forward eagerly to the continuation of this project.”

    Charles J. Halperin,
    Kritika: Explorations in Russian
    and Eurasian History 1, no. 1, 2000

    “No one can fully understand Ukraine today without an appreciation of Hrushevsky’s work. It remains indispensable reading.”

    Hugh D. Hudson Jr.,
    Sixteenth Century Journal 32, no. 1, 2001

    “The realization of this handsome volume [7] is a major achievement. The scholarly apparatus accompanying Hrushevsky’s text is exemplary and highly informative; the references are updated to provide the researcher with a state-of-the-art bibliography; the translation reads as though it had originally been written in English.”

    Caroline Finkel,
    Bulletin of the School of Oriental
    and African Studies 62, pt. 2, 2001

    “This book [vol. 8] is nothing less than a monumental work…. It is of fundamental value in tracing the history of modern Ukrainian identity.”

    Brian J. Boeck,
    Russian Review 63, no. 4, 2004

    “No one can fully understand Ukraine today without an appreciation of Hrushevsky’s work. It remains indispensable reading.”

  605. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    “No luck involved”?

    I don’t buy it. All those “scholars” are Anglos anyway, and for anyone who knows much of anything, it’s obvious where their biases are at.

    If you haven’t noticed I’m a Serb, at the very least by ethnicity. Besides my angry outburst recently about Ukranians earlier in the thread (the hardcore Svidomy types are truly repulsive), i’ve actually met a few Ukranians irl. They’re not bad people. They simply have an incorrect understanding of history. If they had any sense, they would realize that they’re being used as cannon fodder against Russia. At least, if i were a Ukranian who even disliked Russians, regardless of anything else, I would at least avoid being eager to have my people be nothing more than cannon fodder against Russia.

    I already have my own established attitude about Ukraine. I don’t really care to dispute anything about Ukraine with you since it’s partly not my immediate concern. Partly because Russian posters probably spend more than enough time on it anyway. Also, partly because i’ve probably wasted too much time concerning myself with Russia/Ukraine over the years when it’s not really very relevant to me anyway.

  606. They’re not bad people. They simply have an incorrect understanding of history. If they had any sense, they would realize that they’re being used as cannon fodder against Russia. At least, if i were a Ukranian who even disliked Russians, regardless of anything else, I would at least avoid being eager to have my people be nothing more than cannon fodder against Russia.

    From reading your posts here, I seriously doubt that you really know much about Ukrainian history. If you did, you’d realize that Ukrainians have a long history with Russia, almost exclusively as a part of a larger Russian empire. It was actually quite a subservient relationship where it was extremely difficult to foster and cultivate the Ukrainian language, culture and sense of patriotism. Nevertheless, the Ukrainians have been offered an opportunity to shed this colonial past and try and preserve their own separate statehood. Is this so much different than what the Serbs experienced under Ottoman rule? Though not exactly the same, the two situations are analogous. Take off you visors and be a little bit more open minded. BTW, there are at least two large Serbian Orthodox churches where I live and I’ve been to both of them and appreciate these beautiful churches and had an extremely enjoyable time at each church. The old timers here even tell me that at one time for several years, the Serbians and Ukrainians shared the same church and held the divine liturgy together – no problems either. I’m actually sorry to see that you and AP have reached a low point here at this blogsite, I’ve tried not to take sides.

  607. …Killing 30,000 civilians was criminal.

    So was killing the Czechs previous to that. What goes around, comes around.

    Czech murdered about as many Germans, as Germans murdered Czechs.

    Probably not, but the numbers are not precise and the methods varied.

    Regarding whether similar retribution should had happened to the commies: it really depends on a lot of factors and local conditions. By 1990 it was too late and would come across as random cruelty – the crimes were 30-50 years in the past.

    In Czechoslovakia a number of commie pensioners were tried for stuff that happened in 1948-53, or in a few cases after 1968. Almost all prosecutions failed – it turned out that the stories circulated in the media and in the West were either untrue, only partially true, or very hard to substantiate. Maybe it was the mild nature of communism is Cz.

    That examination highlighted that communists were not the only ones lying or cherrypicking facts. E.g. there was a famous case of ‘Czech resistance‘ group in the 1950’s – some executed, some escaped to the West – who tried to have a new trial and it turned out that they mostly robbed village banks, killed a few innocent bank employees. The accused commies were not only vindicated, but in a way that story backfired on the exile community. It was a lot more complicated than the rather stupid black-and-white depictions – it always is. You have to listen to both sides.

  608. Spisarevski says

    young inexperienced conscripts who thought they were going to fight Turks.

    Doubt they would have fared better, lol. Behold, the kebab removers:

    https://i.imgur.com/QnbbzMt.png

    We beat you in the Battle of Kaymakchalan:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kaymakchalan

    You really gonna brag with that? ХАХАХАХАХА

    https://i.imgur.com/XeOLPQU.png

    You are an inferior breed even to the Albanians, who achieved military glory under Skanderberg at least.
    The Nazis and the Ustashe didn’t kill enough of your smelly kind.

  609. Spisarevski says

    The only glorious deed of the Serbian army that I can think of was shooting down the F-117 Nighthawk with a fucking S-125, and it was actually done by an ethnic Hungarian, lol.

  610. Gerard1234 says

    You must be describing yourself, because great Ukrainian historians like Michael Hrushevsky clearly established to the world that Ukraine and Ukrainians do have a unique rich culture and history all their own. BTW, what nationality are you? Hrushevsky’s monumental 10 volume “History of Ukraine-Rus’ is considered his magnum opus and has been lauded throughout the whole world by scores of serious scholars, as a testament to the Ukrainian people.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…..you despicable, extremely dumb troll!!!!!

    This non-entity Michael Hrushevsky is to historical academia what the Church of Scientology or the NXIVM cult is to organised religion – an obscure, indecent, evil, laughable, lying freakshow respected by no serious people

    Who the f**k cares if tens of OUN scumbag expatriates masqeading as “academics” have praised this non-entities fake BS? Not even most Ukrainians take that prick seriously. There is just nothing there. He is NOT a historian.

    It’s so bad that even a shameless turncoat like Zelensky is forced to claim Igor Sikorsky as a “great Ukrainian”!!!…….now Hitler was terrible, but even he had standards, because he would never say something as shameless as “Einstein was a great German”, which is effectively the equivalent of what Zelensky . Perfectly illustrative of a fake country with no history and a fake culture

    Ukrainian “history” and national identity starts and ends with Chikatilo you cretin – though even he had some standards – he decided to impersonate being a pregnant woman……….before admitting to being a Ukrainian nationalist ( his Ukrainian “language” skills being significantly higher than Poroshenko/Valtsman or Zelensky’s now)

  611. Gerard1234 says

    LOL, Balkan “culture.”

    err…it’s a hotbed of great culture you despicable freak (lol – Russian word “mir” when applied to you is something genuinely LOL….albeit in an unsettling tragicomic way)

    Ukrainian “culture” on the other hand though is genuinely an oxymoron – formented by some escaped criminal in Delaware or in the Canadian wilderness

  612. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    I really don’t think that Russian occupation and rule of a given country is comparable to Ottoman/Turkish/Muslim occupation and rule. It’s very clear which one is more preferable than the other.

    Still, i understand your point and the truth is that we are all much more similar to each other than we care to remember. It’s still a shame that in this century we have to put up with divide and conquer tactics by superpowers.

    The arguing with AP has much more to do with the fact that he basically spends his life LARPing as a Habsburg who is still seriously butthurt about 1914 and 1918. It took me a while to realize this, but once i did, everything became clear.

  613. LOL, you try too hard to be a Balkan.

  614. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    The Battle of Maritsa was much more a massacre than a real battle. The Turks basically tricked the Serbs that they were going to surrender to them. The Serbs then became so careless and relaxed that they forgot to put up guards and scouts around their night camp when they were sleeping. Of course, the Turks then massacred them in the night because Turks are obviously not trustworthy and their true game-plan was to feign surrender in order to massacre them in the night.

    Skanderberg was actually mixed Serb-Greek, not Albanian. The fact that you subscribe to Shiptar falsification and plagiarism of history is pathetic.

    Considering you’re gloating about Serbs being massacred by Nazi’s and Ustashe, there’s just as easily a lot i could gloat about Bulgarians being raped, massacred and slaughtered throughout history. If i were anything like you, i’d be going on about how more of that should’ve happened.

    You lot are so pathetic that after a successful Serb Uprising in Bosnia in 1875:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzegovina_uprising_(1875%E2%80%931877)

    You tried to start your own uprising against the Turks in 1876 and failed horribly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Uprising_of_1876

    Of course with your failed Uprising, the Turks massacred you hard:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batak_massacre

    In fact, it’s so famous how hard the Turks raped Bulgaria in 1876, that painting were made all across Europe about how the Turks raped and massacred your women:
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Konstantin_Makovsky_-_The_Bulgarian_martyresses.jpg

  615. TheTotallyAnonymous says

    Of course, just like with anyone who’s ever tried anything, there will be failures as there will be successes. Still, as for “glorious deeds of the Serbian Army” there are quite a lot of them, and there is a very long list of them.

    I’ll give a list of only some of them (1800 onwards only):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ivankovac

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mi%C5%A1ar

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Deligrad

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vranje

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kumanovo

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monastir

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cer

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kolubara

    and i could go on if need be …

  616. It’s all so tiresome…

  617. I really don’t think that Russian occupation and rule of a given country is comparable to Ottoman/Turkish/Muslim occupation and rule. It’s very clear which one is more preferable than the other.

    Neither was a picnic. Ukrainian cossacks were wasted by the thousands used to clear the swamp lands used to build Peter’s new capital in the far Northwest. Russian style serfdom (slavery) was imposed.
    And on and on…

  618. Mr. Hack says

    “Chikatilo”???

    I thought that you once reeducated me to believe that it was Stalin who actually created the Ukrainian nation…to help him destroy the Russian Triune nation, or some other similar rubbish?….

    How’s you piano playing going? I hope that you’re a better musician than you are historian? 🙂

  619. I genuinely feel sorry for you. You are a highly intelligent person who writes interesting things (even if I disagree at times), but that’s your people.

  620. I think maybe you’re taking the balkanoid hate larp a bit too far

  621. Anonymoose says

    He seems to like Croats and Slovenes probably because they were ruled by Habsburgers hence they are more “European” in his mind. But he hates Serbs.

  622. Ukrainian cossacks were wasted by the thousands used to clear the swamp lands used to build Peter’s new capital in the far Northwest.

    These are propaganda tales that have nothing to do with reality. Look at the scientific work on the construction of St. Petersburg, for example История строительства. Петербурга первую четверть XVIII века. Луппов С. П

    Russian style serfdom (slavery) was imposed.

    This is bullshit. As a result of transition from under the Polish power under the power of Russia, serfdom was liquidated in left-Bank Ukraine (which was bad for the economy ). In “Polish” Ukraine serfdom remained in extremely cruel forms. Later in the “Russian” Ukraine serfdom was gradually restored at the insistence of local (Ukrainian) landowners, but in a much softer version than in the Polish lands.

  623. Look at the scientific work on the construction of St. Petersburg, for example История строительства. Петербурга первую четверть XVIII века. Луппов С. П

    Would you be so kind and write down the approximate cost of the endeavour and total deaths during the construction?

    This is bullshit. As a result of transition from under the Polish power under the power of Russia, serfdom was liquidated in left-Bank Ukraine (which was bad for the economy ).

    What motivated the Russian Empire to liquidate serfdom in the newly conquered area (PR value, administrative issues, demography?) but keep it elsewhere, what year did this happen and was this abolishment of serfdom followed by agrarian reform/land redistribution or did they just release landless people from serfdom?

    In “Polish” Ukraine serfdom remained in extremely cruel forms.

    Did it have the form of magnates and large landowners renting out their land and serfs for a fixed fee to middle-men (often Jews), who could then extract as much labour and profit as they wished?

    Later in the “Russian” Ukraine serfdom was gradually restored at the insistence of local (Ukrainian) landowners, but in a much softer version than in the Polish lands.

    When did this happen and how was it pulled off – creating serfs out of free people must have caused unrest.

  624. He seems to like Croats and Slovenes probably because they were ruled by Habsburgers hence they are more “European” in his mind.

    They were pro-German in both World Wars and loyal soldiers of Central Powers and Axis, so they fought along Sich Rifles, UNPA, SS Galizien and other Ukrainian patriots. In addition, Serb(‘s) actions toppled the Habsburg Empire and probably robbed his ancestors of nobility and amenities associated with it.

    Nowadays, Serbs are the last pro-Russian people in Europe (but to a surprisingly low degree when everything is taken into account – unfortunately) and are therefore firmly on the side of a country at war with Ukraine.

    There is also a personal dimension – Slovenians and to a lesser degree Croats are unfortunately on average more civilized/cultured/organized/less subhuman than Serbs – a very good proxy for this is to look at villages and smaller towns in Slovenia, north Croatia+Istria and compare it to Serbian ones. I leave out war devastated zones for obvious reasons.

    But he hates Serbs.

    Perfectly normal – this has been common in Yugoslavia, Serbia and even among Serbs themselves.

    Jokes aside, our Ukrainian members aren’t hateful people and are often on the defensive here, this being a Russian nationalist’s blog.
    It would be even better if we had more of Ukrainians writing here.

  625. Would you be so kind and write down the approximate cost of the endeavour and total deaths during the construction?

    Exact figures are unknown

    https://statehistory.livejournal.com/990.html
    the historian of construction of St. Petersburg S. P. Luppov wrote “…disease and mortality among construction workers of St. Petersburg were common, and if the loss of the people was expressed not tens of thousands of people as wrote the foreigners, in all likelihood, thousands died.” The latest historian O. G. Ageeva also notes that the figures reported in foreign texts are “huge, and, given the total population of St. Petersburg (in 1720s – about 40 – 50 thousand), incredible.” Based on the information of “Vedomosti about the perspective road” (1716), for 1703-1715 “1932 people could die”, that is, annually “about 150 people“.

    But among these people there were no Ukrainians (or perhaps Ukrainians were, but in homeopathic doses)

  626. What motivated the Russian Empire to liquidate serfdom

    During the uprising against Poland (in the mid-17th century), the Polish landowners were exterminated or expelled. Russian authorities have consolidated this situation

    Did it have the form of magnates and large landowners renting out their land and serfs for a fixed fee to middle-men (often Jews)

    The system of land ownership was different. But in Poland 7 day corvee was legalized (i.e. the peasant worked 7 days a week as the slave in the field of the landowner). In Russia at the end of the 18th century was banned corvee more than 3 days a week (in the earlier period, this issue was not regulated, but corvee was 1-2 days a week or less )

  627. Mr. Hack says

    But among these people there were no Ukrainians (or perhaps Ukrainians were, but in homeopathic doses)

    Homeopathic doses? What a total crock of bulls__t:

    The city was founded in 1703 with the construction of the Peter and Paul Fortress and the admiralty shipyards (1704). In the 1710s regiments of the Ukrainian Cossacks under the command of Cols Pavlo Polubotok, Andrii Markovych, and Ivan Charnysh took part in draining the marshes and digging the canals for ships. The development of the city was costly in human lives: the labor was backbreaking, the treatment of laborers was brutal, and the climate was harsh. In Ukraine it became common knowledge that ‘Saint Petersburg was built on Cossack bones.’ Further large-scale projects were undertaken with the labor not only of army units but also of Swedish war prisoners, Cossack convicts, and conscripted workers from all the gubernias. In Kyiv gubernia alone, labor conscriptions for the Saint Petersburg work force raised 2,125 men in 1710, 1,365 in 1712, 1,790 in 1713, and 1,435 in 1714 and in 1715. Hired workers and skilled tradesmen were also used. Later, labor conscription was replaced by special tax levies on the gubernias.

    http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CS%5CA%5CSaintPetersburg.htm

  628. During the uprising against Poland (in the mid-17th century), the Polish landowners were exterminated or expelled.

    By Ukrainians acting independently of Russia (but allied to Tatars).

    https://www.britannica.com/place/Ukraine/The-Cossacks#ref30067

    Russian authorities have consolidated this situation

    They reversed it.

  629. http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com just as sloppy as everything else “ofukraine”. Data are taken from here,
    https://b.radikal.ru/b19/1907/6d/0a8584980e05.png

    but the fact that in the original text clearly stated that this is the nominal number of mobilized far superior to the real numbers , the authors of “encyclopedia” ignored. However, if you take the nominal figures for real – it turns out that in St. Petersburg, several dozen Ukrainians died (maybe even a hundred). It’s called homeopathic doses.

  630. reiner Tor says

    I’m not aware of much rejoicing among Hungarian officers at the death of Franz Ferdinand. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn’t, but it’s from a work of fiction, which utu quoted.

    Anyway, Franz Ferdinand never wanted to preserve the Kingdom of Hungary, for whose King the hussars owed their loyalty. Franz Ferdinand actually planned not to be crowned King of Hungary, so as to avoid having to take an oath to keep the Hungarian constitution.

    I still don’t see why Hungarians owed any loyalty to Franz Ferdinand.

  631. reiner Tor says

    Order of Pashich (or Serbian king) found? If not then “never has been proven the direct involvement of the Serbian government”.

    You are using an argument similar to holocaust-deniers. Since no notarized signed and stamped order by Hitler exists, he must not have been involved.

    You are also moving goalposts. The argument is that a high-ranking official of the Serbian government (the head of the military intelligence) was involved, not that the king or the prime minister gave the order or even knew about it. But as long as the head of the military intelligence was also the head of Black Hand, it was not expected that the Serbs would lead an impartial investigation of the murderers. The involvement of a high-ranking government official (who seemed to be impossible to remove by the Serb government or king, even though they probably very much would have liked to at this point) is still a casus belli.

    Piłsudski

    It’d probably have been casus belli if Russia wanted to pursue this, but Russia was not in a position to start a war (any war) in 1906. It was also a humiliating experience for Russia, unless I’m mistaken.

    Which was my point: any great power at the time would’ve started a war against a much smaller neighbor if they had the chance to do so.

  632. reiner Tor says

    That was true by 1914, but not in 1848 – something happened in the 65 years that made Habsburgs obsolete.

    Two things happened, connected to each other, mass literacy and the Age of Nationalism.

    turning A-H into a tripartite monarchy

    Of course, they forgot to ask the one third of Czechia’s population who happened to be German. Or would they have accepted the removal of the Sudetenland?

    One thing that Magyars miss is the extent to which their treatment of minorities between 1890-1914 can’t be undone – and the damage to our relations will always be there.

    That’s good to know, that you are that magnanimous. I mean, after having done hundred times worse things (like mass murder and ethnic cleansing), you still cannot forgive us the relatively minor things we did over a century ago.

  633. reiner Tor says

    we retaliated in kind

    What the Czechs did was worse than what the Germans did (as opposed to planned to do – especially since it’s unclear if there was any coherent plan by the Germans to do anything). Also, long term, ethnically cleansing a large area is actually worse than killing a hundred thousand people.

    Germans openly applied group responsibility to Czechs and often killed whole families as example to others

    It’s quite different from expelling all Germans, and in the meantime killing tens of thousands of them in an orgy of violence. (Perhaps you don’t realize that the Germans killed Czechs over a period of 6 years, whereas Czechs killed those Germans very quickly, within a few months.)

    Apponyi schools laws

    This is not even in the same ballpark as ethnic cleansing. Besides, it happened several decades earlier.

    Cernova

    Killing 15 people is not a good excuse for wholesale ethnic cleansing several decades later. Look, it was bad, but the local gendarme commander was an ethnic Slovak. (Very likely most of the ordinary gendarmes, too.) I’m not sure if you’re aware that gendarmes didn’t have swords or batons, nor any other non-lethal weapons, which is why they were trained to shoot at first sign of opposition. Much like American cops. It’s unclear what happened, but there are reports of stone-throwing by the locals, which would, for example, easily explain it. Hungarian gendarmes actually shot quite often at angry ethnically Hungarian crowds in other parts of Hungary.

    It wasn’t even much remarkable. Police or gendarmerie shot at angry protesting crowds in the UK, France or other countries, too. It’s not a very good excuse for ethnic cleansing several decades later.

    what would be an excuse under Habsburgs to do that to its Slav population

    You said the Habsburg Empire was a “brutal, colonial system in the middle of Europe.” I reminded you that colonials didn’t enjoy citizenship of the colonizer.

    So now you admit that it wasn’t a colonial system? Nor was it, by the way, particularly brutal, if the worst thing you can come up with is a gendarme troop (probably mostly consisting of ethnic Slovaks) under an ethnic Slovak commander shooting 15 people.

  634. reiner Tor says

    e.g. the whole Czech national leadership, including people who were members of the Parliament, was arrested and leaders sentenced to death

    I haven’t found anything about it. Is there anything in English about it? If not, in Czech?

    I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but I don’t like if my interlocutor keeps bringing up something which I have no way of checking. (This is not the first time you bring “the whole Czech national leadership getting arrested” thing up.)

  635. …they forgot to ask the one third of Czechia’s population who happened to be German.

    Did Habsburgs ask over one half of population of Hungary in 1867 who happened to be non-Magyar?

    after having done hundred times worse things (like mass murder and ethnic cleansing)

    It is not about magnanimity, I am simply pointing out that this historical fact will always be there. Even you saying that it was ‘hundred times less‘ than something (what exactly?) shows that the disagreement is really deep.

    Nobody committed ‘mass murder or ethnic cleansing‘ against Magyars. When you glibly assert it, you undermine any other arguments you might have, like where the border are, or property expropriation. I don’t want to rehash the Magyar treatment of non-Magyars when they were in charge, especially between 1890-1914, but to dismiss it is highly unhelpful to any dialogue.

    In addition to nationalism (by all) and literacy, what happened between 1867-1914 were massive, irreversible mistakes by both Habsburgs and Hungarians. So here we are.

  636. I don’t see where you obtained the figure of several dozen Ukrainians killed? The data you’ve included doesn’t seem to indicate how many Ukrainians died but shows how many people were conscripted for bulding this imperial project? Also, I think that it’s reasonable to surmise that Ukrainians from other gubernias were also conscripted. From the data provided, from the Kyivan gubernia alone some 8,152 Ukrainians were conscripted (it’s indicated that in 1835, the same figure of 1435 as in 1834 was conscripted).

  637. … What the Czechs did was worse than what the Germans did…long term, ethnically cleansing a large area is actually worse than killing a hundred thousand people.

    Wrong. Germans did it first – that was an essential fact that drove the whole tragedy. The number of Czechs in total killed by Germans was also substantially higher than the number of killed Germans in the expulsions after WWII. If one includes Czech Jewish and Roma populations it was close to 10 times higher.

    Strategically you are right – the post-war expulsion was a more permanent act than what were individual tragedies during WWII. But that that grew out of what Germans did in WWII in Czechia – as I pointed out before there was no way to have those two communities live side-by-side in 1945 after what the local Sudeten Germans did to Czechs. Sequence matters in history, your attempts to compare are way off.

    Apponyi schools laws were a state-driven and Magyar elite approved attempt to de-nationalise Slovaks, Serbs, Romanians and Germans living in Hungary starting with small kids. It was an extreme form of state oppression, Slovak language schools were shut down, little kids were suddenly staring at an incomprehensible language (Magyar is a very difficult language) – the stories and anger it generated completely broke off any good will. It peaked in 1910-14 right before WWI – it took the government a few years to organise, send Magyar teachers, etc.. – and it was one of the main drivers for the complete break of our relations. It impacted every family and it is still commented on daily among older people who remember what their parents went through.

    There were different kinds of colonialisms – the cultural-political one that Magyars attempted was similar to English in Ireland, or Ottomans. In other words, a de facto second class citizenship and an attempt to erase their identity.

    I used Cernova as one example because it galvanised a large mass of Catholic peasants and got a lot of publicity in Czechia and the West. The victims were peasant women who wanted to keep their Slovak speaking priest. You are again trying to minimise it, but the fact that it was explicitly about language and cultural rights made it different from other police actions against economic unrest. It matters not one iota what the ethnicity of the gendarmes – I pointed out to you that Kossuth was also a Slovak (mostly). It was a government action, it went unpunished – it was another one of the many mistakes Magyars made at that time.

    Czech national leaders, Rasin, Kramar, Masaryk’s family, and others were arrested and sentenced to death at the beginning of WWI – you can look it up on all Czech websites. I noticed that English wiki desperately tries to avoid mentioning it directly, it mentions it and surrounds it with endless irrelevant stuff about – another example of where wiki is politicised or tries to spin history.

  638. reiner Tor says

    Did Habsburgs ask over one half of population of Hungary in 1867 who happened to be non-Magyar?

    No, but we’ve already agreed that it was unsustainable. Germans were the only reliably loyal subjects the Habsburgs had, so screwing them over in Czechia would never have worked well.

    Nobody committed ‘mass murder or ethnic cleansing‘ against Magyars.

    1945-47, yes, they did.

    First, all ethnic Hungarians were stripped of their citizenship. Hungary never did anything like that to Slovaks.

    Some 75,000 ethnic Hungarians were declared “war criminals” and deported from Czechoslovakia. Needless to say, nothing of the sort was done to Slovaks under Hungarian rule. (Given that Slovakia paid Nazi Germany to kill their Jews, I don’t think this “war criminal” line was very tasteful for Slovaks to use vis-à-vis Hungarians. We were both German satellite states.)

    With Soviet help they forced a “population transfer agreement” on Hungary, and then sent us more than Slovaks were willing to relocate from Southeastern Hungary. The Slovaks (roughly 60,000) moving to Slovakia were poor (better-off people never wanted to relocate, obviously), while the Hungarians (roughly 76,000) were forcibly removed from Slovakia. (There could be some overlap in the numbers with the previous 75,000 number, overall the number might be 90,000-130,000.)

    Another 44,000 were forcibly deported to Czechia in 1946-47 (and another at least 12,000 in 1945 which is probably not included in the 44,000 number), again, they lost their properties, too.

    Altogether, that’s perhaps some 150,000 (plus minus a few tens of thousands) people losing property and forcibly relocated. There’s 60,000 Slovaks who left Hungary (but they were recruited by the Slovaks and not forcibly deported), but this was also only because of the Czechoslovak pressure to create the “population transfer agreement.” The Soviets sided with the Czechoslovak government because Subcarpathia was given to them by Czechoslovakia in exchange for Soviet support to create an ethnically homogenous purely Slavic country.

    Then of course there were ethnically motivated mass murders. Around Ligetfalu (Slovak name Petržalka) they shot at least 500 (including dozens of children), but possibly thousands. (There was never a full scale investigation of the matter, needless to say.) There were smaller scale events elsewhere.

    I don’t want to rehash the Magyar treatment of non-Magyars when they were in charge, especially between 1890-1914

    • no ethnically motivated mass murder, especially not of children
    • no Slovak stripped of citizenship based on ethnicity (with Jews you would have a point, if you weren’t Slovak; you Slovaks paid to the Germans for the murder of Jews)

    • no forcible relocation of Slovaks within Hungary

    • no deportation out of the country

    • no Slovak deprived of property based on ethnicity

    to dismiss it is highly

    The treatment of ethnic minorities before 1918 was both foolish and counter-productive, but it’s over. You Slovaks won. (So did the Romanians and Serbs.)

    You got the area, including those which were never ethnically Slovak. You managed to reverse any assimilation which might have happened during those decades, and then some. You managed to ethnically cleanse lots of Hungarians, including forced deportations to Czechia (the first 12,000 were treated like slaves there, at least during the first year), and massacres were at least much worse than the Černová massacre, which was not premeditated and was committed by ethnic Slovaks anyway.

    By the way, almost all the bad things against ethnic Hungarians happened before the communists took over. Communism immediately brought relief to Hungarians – their properties were taken anyway, while at least some of their rights were restored.

  639. …Germans were the only reliably loyal subjects the Habsburgs had

    And AP’s relatives in Galicia :)…that maybe why they lost at the end.

    You are mixing up a small number of war criminal with the population exchange that happened in 1946-7. Many of the war criminals who left were officials sent by Budapest to southern Slovakia after 1938. The exchange was contraversial, but not as one-sided as you write – there was a sense that after all the violence and hatreds, it was better to have more ethnically homogeneous countries. Property was lost, but the overall accounting is by far not as black-and-white as you suggest.

    The total number of Hungarians who were ‘exchanged’ with Slovaks from Hungary was 80,000 and maybe another 40,000 who were ‘resettled’ (by force) in Sudetenland. More than half of the Hungarians from Sudetenland returned once communists took power in 1948. Communists were actually bizarrely ‘internationalist’ and insisted on not seeing ethnicity (only class). If nationalists were fully in charge it would had been a lot bloodier. That’s why I find the endless ‘commies did it’ mantra so silly, it misunderstands what they were all about.

    I will respond more.

  640. I don’t see where you obtained the figure of several dozen Ukrainians killed?

    The mortality rate was a few percent. You can calculate the magnitude of deaths yourself. And of course the dead from disease (or accidents) is not the same as the “killed”

    Also, I think that it’s reasonable to surmise that Ukrainians from other gubernias were also conscripted.

    Above is a table with the nominal number of all mobilized from all provinces. From what other provinces (except Kyivan) it is possible to mobilize Ukrainians? Actually the opposite “Kyivan province (early 18th century) comprised little Russia, Belgorod, Sevsk, and part of present Bryansk, Belgorod, Orel, Kursk, Kaluga, Tula regions.”
    Need to explain further? it’s reasonable to surmise that mobilized from Kyivan gubernia were mostly not “Ukrainians”

  641. Yay! 640+ posts on Eastern Europe/Central Europe/Balkan history thread!
    Is this a record on Unz.com?

  642. reiner Tor says

    Apparently neither the Czech Hasek nor the Jewish Joseph Roth liked Hungarians.

    What makes you think these were accurate descriptions? There are yahoos among all peoples, so of course both could be technically accurate even if generally not typical.

  643. Using general mortality rates for a subsection of society that was earmarked for conscription to areas that required backbeaking work, long hours digging and clearing swamps, quetionable diets and medical treatment is ingenuine at best, and deceptive at worst. BTW, I never used the term “killed” but used the term “wasted”. And why wouldn’t one use the figures of those that died prematurely from disease or accidents, when discussing the fates of those that died in these most unhospitable ciercumstaces?

    As to the Ukrainian ethnic component of the Kyivan gubernia of the 18th century, cities like Kyiv, Chernihiv, Baturyn and Kharkiv certainly had a majority of Ukrainians during this era. Also, let’s not forget that those conscipted included a large portion of Ukrainain cossacks that were enrolled as a result of being on Mazeppa’s side during the northern war – and most of these would have included cossasks from the Zaporozhian sich in south central Ukraine.

  644. Using general mortality rates

    Its (few percent) not general mortality rates, its mortality rates among conscripted workers in SPb

    I don’t see where you obtained the figure of several dozen Ukrainians killed?

    I never used the term “killed”

    ????????

    And why wouldn’t one use the figures of those that died prematurely from disease or accidents, when discussing the fates of those that died in these most unhospitable ciercumstaces?

    Their destiny fates – having worked 2 or 3 months in a warm season of year, workers came back home with the earned money. Forced mobilization of workers was later abandoned, as there was a large surplus of volunteers who wanted to work at the construction of St. Petersburg.

    Also, let’s not forget that those conscipted included a large portion of Ukrainain cossacks

    No, since the Cossacks were not mobilized for work. Only peasants

  645. reiner Tor says

    Wrong. Germans did it first

    Maybe. Though given how you are still sore about a massacre killing 15 Slovaks, it’s interesting that Czechs killed several times that many Germans in 1919. (Also peaceful Hungarian demonstrations were put down using live ammo, more on that later.) After that, separatism was pretty strong among those Germans, and could you blame them?

    On 4 March 1919, almost the entire ethnic German population peacefully demonstrated for their right to self-determination.[citation needed] These demonstrations were accompanied by a one-day general strike. The German Social Democratic Workers Party in the Czechoslovak Republic, which was the largest party at the time, was responsible for the demonstration initiative, but it was also supported by other bourgeois German parties. These mass demonstrations were put down by the Czech military, involving 54 deaths and 84 wounded.[26]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudeten_Germans#Province_of_German_Bohemia

    The number of Czechs in total killed by Germans was also substantially higher than the number of killed Germans in the expulsions after WWII.

    Based on questionable statistics, see the other thread. Also, Germany was a totalitarian dictatorship, while Czechoslovakia was not. The German government could kill substantial numbers without consent from its population, Czechoslovakia couldn’t. Also, Germans killed those Czechs spread out over 6 years, while Czechs did it in under 2 years at most.

    Anyway, I’m simply pointing out that Czechs (and Slovaks) wanted to rule over substantial non-Slavic (or non-Czechoslovak, in the case of also separatist Ruthenians and Poles) populations, and then, when these population became disloyal and had a chance to join their mother countries, used this as pretext to expel them wholesale. Yes, it’s not going to be reversed. All countries involved (mostly, Germany, Hungary, maybe Austria) have bigger problems now. But at least we can acknowledge that Czechs and Slovaks weren’t so much more moral than Germans or Hungarians.

    those two communities live side-by-side in 1945

    Of course there would’ve been the moral possibility of giving Sudeten Germans the land which they and their ancestors had lived on for half a millennium. It didn’t cross Czechoslovak minds.

    Sequence matters in history

    Yes. First Czechs wanted to rule a big non-Czech population. You somehow ignore it, while somehow still finding Hungarians faulty for wanting the same.

    Apponyi schools laws were a state-driven and Magyar elite approved attempt to de-nationalise Slovaks, Serbs, Romanians and Germans living in Hungary starting with small kids. It was an extreme form of state oppression, Slovak language schools were shut down

    Have you read the law, or only in Slovak history textbooks? Because the law said that non-Hungarian language schools could only receive certain extra salary items for their teachers from the Hungarian budget, if certain requirements are met. Here you can find the complete text of the law, Google Translate might not be perfect (because the language is archaic legalese), but you can certainly find some strange things.

    https://net.jogtar.hu/ezer-ev-torveny?docid=90700027.TV&searchUrl=/ezer-ev-torvenyei%3Fpagenum%3D36

    A few basic points:

    • state elementary schools were Hungarian by default
    • most schools were not state schools anyway

    • the language of education in non-state schools was to be either the state language (i.e. Hungarian), or the mother tongue of the children, but in the latter case provisions were to be made to support Hungarian language education of the students (i.e. they were to be taught Magyar)

    The bad things about the law were the following:

    • obviously they could’ve created minority language elementary schools
  646. they required perfect knowledge of the Hungarian language by age 10 for students of minority language schools (obviously impossible0

  647. they required a “patriotic spirit” in the education, usage of centrally mandated textbooks, etc.

  648. (These requirements didn’t exist for schools which didn’t get money from the central budget, but since ethnic minorities also paid taxes, this is irrelevant.)

    I used Cernova as one example because it galvanised a large mass of Catholic peasants and got a lot of publicity in Czechia and the West. The victims were peasant women who wanted to keep their Slovak speaking priest. You are again trying to minimise it, but the fact that it was explicitly about language and cultural rights made it different from other police actions against economic unrest.

    In 1919 (granted, those were Czech soldiers):

    • Pozsony (Slovaks were a small minority then, so excuse me for not using the name “Bratislava”), 7 people killed in a shooting of peaceful Hungarian demonstrators. 1 person died later. 1 boy (14 years old) was killed during the funeral by a Czech soldier at point-blank range after he tightened his shoelaces, because the soldier thought the boy was showing him his ass. Regardless of which version is true, killing him at point blank range was obviously way worse than the shooting at a crowd.
  649. Zelíz (then official name, also basically fully Hungarian), 4 people were killed (including a 16 year old girl) when Czech soldiers shot at a peaceful crowd, then another man was shot the next morning in the small hours by Czech soldiers.

  650. Komárom (then official name, also basically fully Hungarian ethnically), Hungarian worker militias tried to liberate the city occupied by Czechs, however, they were neither adequately armed nor trained, so over a hundred were killed by the Czech soldiers. (So far, it’s perfectly legal, armed battle, all that. It was criminal by the Hungarian Soviet Republic to send these worker militias against regular soldiers.) However, those killed included several (probably several dozens) of militiamen who were captured. The next day under a curfew they shot a 12 year old boy. Then they took hostages from the population to threaten the population.

  651. Do they teach any of these events in Slovak schools? These were at least as important for Hungarians as Černová for Slovaks, and the perpetrators not being ethnically Hungarian, the optics of it are much worse. Also no one was prosecuted as a result, and the demonstrators were blamed for everything that happened.

    Of course, the events in 1945-47 were way worse (and the perpetrators more often Slovaks, though apparently still many Czechs participated in those events).

    It matters not one iota what the ethnicity of the gendarmes –

    Why not? Ethnic murder is usually done by members of one ethnicity against those of another. Here several of the gendarmes refused to testify in the following court proceedings, because their relatives were among the victims and other participants of the demonstration.

    I pointed out to you that Kossuth was also a Slovak (mostly)

    Half Slovak (on his father’s side), but he spoke equally well (or probably better) Hungarian, considered himself Hungarian, used a Hungarian name, etc. So a bit different from the gendarme commander, who had a Slovak name, spoke better Slovak than Hungarian, lived in an almost exclusively Slovak area, etc.

  • reiner Tor says

    You are mixing up a small number of war criminal

    At least 30,000 (in some statistics 75,000) people were declared “war criminals.” It’s pretty obvious that it was bullshit.

    The total number of Hungarians who were ‘exchanged’ with Slovaks from Hungary was 80,000 and maybe another 40,000 who were ‘resettled’ (by force) in Sudetenland.

    The number of ethnic Hungarians decreased by almost 80,000 or 13% between 1930 and 1961 (the 1950 census is not reliable), while Slovakia’s population grew by 25% and that of Hungary by 20%. It’s pretty obvious that at least 100,000 Hungarians are missing from the Czechoslovak statistics above the 80,000 number.

    At least half of these were expelled from Czechoslovakia (with the intent of creating an “ethnically clean” Czechoslovakia, and probably a few thousand were murdered.

    Plus of course the number deported to Czechia (not only the Sudetenland), which was 43,000 in 1946-47, and probably another 10,000 in 1945.

  • reiner Tor says

    I wanted to continue the bad things about Lex Apponyi, but I pressed send early, and then due to some bug couldn’t edit. (Like mandating the conversion of ethnic language schools into Hungarian the moment the proportion of Hungarian students reached 50%, the irreversibility of such changes, i.e. a school could change from minority language to Hungarian, but not the other way around, etc.)

    But I suspect Slovak textbooks now teach it as a complete abolition of Slovak language, which was not the case. Slovak schools continued to exist (and were the vast majority in Slovak areas) throughout the period until 1918.

    The “Lex Apponyi” (1907. évi XXVII. tc.) was only about elementary schools (pupils 6-10 years of age; anything beyond elementary schools weren’t mandatory anyway), middle or high schools or higher education weren’t affected.

  • Mr. Hack says

    Their destiny fates – having worked 2 or 3 months in a warm season of year, workers came back home with the earned money

    You’re trying to paint a rosy picture of content (happy?) workers who went off to work at a warm weather destination for 2-3 months and came back home with a bag full of money?…not at all the picture that I’ve heard about. Starting at the 2:00 mark of this short video clip the narrator mentions tens of thousands of conscripted peasant died while employed in St.Petersburg in the harshest of conditions.

    No, since the Cossacks were not mobilized for work. Only peasants

    More total nonsense of yours. In my original comment in #634 there are given the names of three cossack commanders of three regiments that were conscripeted. Need to explain further? 🙂

    https://youtu.be/9fP0cb0Nbxc