Alexey Bessudnov (2016) – Ethnic Hierarchy and Public Attitudes towards Immigrants in Russia
Explanations of anti-immigrant attitudes in Europe have been centred around the labour market competition and group threat theories. The article tests these theories with the data from Russia and finds some support for the group threat theory. Attitudes towards several immigrant ethnic groups are analysed separately. While Russians generally accept Ukrainians and Moldovans as their potential neighbours, they are more hostile to immigrants from the Caucasus and Central Asia. This ethnic hierarchy is shared by all large ethnic groups populating Russia. The analysis of regional-level covariates of anti-immigrant sentiment shows that higher concentration of immigrants is associated with more negative attitudes towards most immigrant groups, except Ukrainians. Poorer regions are more xenophobic. The predictive power of statistical models explaining anti-immigrant prejudice is considerably lower in Russia compared with Western European countries. The article discusses to what extent standard explanations of anti-immigrant attitudes in Europe can be applied in Russia.
Interesting paper on attitudes towards immigrants in Russia. Big sample (n=24,500).
It is written from very neoliberalism.txt perspective (e.g. Ctrl-F on “xeno-” yields 37 matches; “prejudice” yields 17 matches), but data is data.
Highlights:
1. Russian regions by “xenophobia.”
Richer regions tend to be more anti-immigrant than poorer regions.
2. Attitudes by socioeconomic, ethnic, religious status. (Positive numbers denote higher “xenophobia” relative to the reference group).
So basically Russians and indigenous Turkic and Finno-Ugric minorities are all similarly “xenophobic”; North Caucasians are more welcoming (if not, one suspects, with respect to their own territories); while heavily immigrant peoples (Central Asians, South Caucasians) and the Mercurians (Jews – and not that these are religious Jews; I suspect the secular Jews would be even more pro-immigrant) are very welcoming. Where have we seen this pattern before?
Almost no difference between age groups or the sexes; the big cities are substantially more based than the countryside, an inversion of the usual pattern in Western Europe and the United States (probably explainable by the core Russian countryside being 99% Slavic); manual workers are slightly more based than students; recent migrants are more welcoming than natives; and the poorly educated (whom Trump loves) are more based than the highly educated.
3. Attitudes by ethnicity, towards immigrants from specific regions.
Here we see that although “xenophobia” differs across ethnic groups – with Slavs and indigenous Turkic and Finno-Ugrics more xenophobic, immigrant groups from the South Caucasus and Central Asia being less xenophobic – there is a common hierarchy, with Slavic immigrants (Ukraine, Moldova) universally being more welcome than immigrants from Central Asia and especially the North Caucasus, even by other Muslim ethnicities.
The phenomenon of inter-group consensus on ethnic hierarchy is well known in social psychology and was reported previously for Russia by Hagendoorn et al. (1998). Hagendoorn et al. noted that it was also found in other countries and that ‘a common element in these hierarchies is that North Europeans are placed at the top, in the middle are Southern and Eastern Europeans, while Asians and Africans generally occupy positions at the lower end of the scale‘. The survey instrument in our study does not include questions about attitudes to North and Western Europeans, but the relative positions of other groups confirm Hagendoorn et al.’s conclusions. Hagendoorn (1995) explains this consensus by status considerations: ethnic groups that are perceived as having lower status do not want to further endanger it by association with other groups with lower status.
Yes, I am sure this has everything to do with it. And nothing at all to do with Chechen behavior and values.
Anyhow, what I’m going with this is that as in so many other spheres of life, the patterns of social processes in Russia are in fact very similar to those in the West.
I don’t know if Anatoly will see this or if anyone else might be able to help but would anyone have any idea what percentage ethnic Russians might make up of the RF population today ? I know the 2010 census & 2014 Crimea census results so just curious as to what it might be currently.
It is interesting that not being religious makes so little difference
This xenophobia is usually a response to poor policy, in this case – in fields of immigration or lack of assimilation and historical absorption of troublesome populations into the country.
I sense both study-authors and perhaps Karlin (although perhaps Karlin is using it to discover certain interesting things about peoples’ different points of view), are making the same error, just one side seeing it as bad, and the other (Karlin) as healthy.
For example, we know richer and educated demographics will correlate with less xenophobia in response to immigration – and the explanation is primarily they shielded from net policy errors in this area, and perhaps benefit from some of (non-net) positive aspects (economically). E.g. How much will purchasers of property in the following project be exposed to negative consequences of net negative policies in immigration and unpleasantness of having violent-behaved neighbours as a result? http://deauville.ru (Hint – project has a fence around it).
So I sense Karlin’s view (this may be misattribution – feel free to correct), is that we need more xenophobia and celebrate it, as the result will be politicians who restrict (or filter better) immigration and impose greater assimilation on troublesome nationalities.
But this is “placing the cart before the horse”. Xenophobia is rising as a response to people suffering from mistakes in immigration or demographic policy, and becomes elevated in those regions (for example, Alabama in America), where there is conflict between demographics, and the situation is the worst.
The problem in Alabama, was a thoughtless (in long-run) policy to import slaves. And the xenophobia between the nationalities in Alabama is a symptom of the stupid policy, not something positive anymore than the pain in your leg is something to celebrate, after you break it.
We can actually correlate xenophobia here with some of the least successful places, in the areas of immigration of demographic policies.
I think there is perhaps a useful and positive counter-example, which some people might call “xenophobia by proxy” or “xenophobia by observing the situation in foreign countries”, which is perhaps how some might describe the process that occurs in Poland, Hungary and Japan, where they observe stupid mistakes in other countries (e.g. France, UK), and develop anti-immigration views, without having to suffer the negative impact of these policies in their own countries first.
This is the dream situation for any country (where you can learn from other countries’ mistakes, before you make mistake yourself).
But I would not call the situation of “learning from example” in Poland, Hungary and Japan, “xenophobia” in the same sense. Japanese are not, on average, having qualitatively similar attitudes as “white of Alabama” in relations to blacks, or “blacks of Alabama” in relations with whites. They are not suffering negative effects of stupid policies that resulted in ethnic conflicts, and then developing angry attitudes to them. This is simply occurring in the level of policy.
As for example, the xenophobia is higher in big cities in Russia, than in the rural areas – this is “xenophobia as symptom of suffering negative effects of immigration”, and something lamentable, and is a symptom of stupid policies.
When they say ‘South-East Asia’, do they mean Southeast Asia or South and East Asia?
According to the micro-census of 2015 (a bit more than 2 mil respondents), the share of ethnic Russians was 81.9%. We’ll have to wait for the full census in 2020 for a better picture. Idk if you know Russian, but somebody has compiled a comparison in the share of ethnic Russians by region between the 2010 census and the 2015 micro-census: https://zemfort1983.livejournal.com/905926.html.
OK I will look at that, Thanks very much for your reply and the link.
OT
I cannot speak Russian, but apparently the Su-57 program will never go into mass production:
https://warfiles.ru/183877-pochemu-su-57-okazalsya-dorogoy-i-bespoleznoy-igrushkoy.html
It seems to be a turn for the worse after the news from just a few days ago about a dozen being ordered from the manufacturer. Then, probably, no more than a few will ever be built of it.
Can someone confirm it?
I found this:
https://www.businessinsider.sg/russian-lawmaker-su-57s-will-be-considerably-cheaper-than-f-22s-2018-7/
I think it’s the same guy. So what is going on?
The guy who gave the original link gave this one, too:
https://news.rambler.ru/weapon/40271791-su-57-okazalsya-dorogoy-i-bespoleznoy-igrushkoy/
Is there some reason why “rednecks” are your favorite punching bag?
@Ak
Thank you for posting these data: coincidentally I was wondering about it a few days ago, following a conversation with a friend regarding urban vs. rural attitudes (not only in Russia) regarding SWPL. The Russian data provide a nice counter-example to the conventional wisdom in this regard.
Also I wanted to thank you for another reason: your referring to the West Hunter blog. As a result I have discovered the 10000 YE book, have ordered it, and am enjoying it tremendously.
What happened to Thorfinnsson? He was very active here and seems to have disappeared after someone told him he was spending too much time here for a successful businessman. It’s too bad if he’s gone permanently, because it is via his Tesla article that I discovered your blog.
I wasn’t talking about rednecks.
I was using the most famous example (Alabama) of a region of conflict between white and black populations – the needless result of incompetent official policy in importation of slaves, which was idiotic, even aside from human rights issues, as it led to longrun ethnic conflicts that continued even in the century after slavery had ended. You can feel free to read about historical events between the populations in this region, like the Birmingham riot of 1963,
Of course, the fact regional populations developed unpleasant attitudes towards each other is not something to celebrate (and to condemn it is also futile) – it is just a negative, almost inevitable longrun result of this idiotic policy of slave-importation.
Elevated xenophobic attitudes are symptoms of areas of conflict, and you would be better not to celebrate the negative symptoms, but rather avoid the conflicts that produce them.
It is true though that rednecks constitute about 95% of the American population, and in a way almost beautifully resistant to the economic development level of the country, and occupational status of the individual, so I guess, in the roundabout way, I was talking about rednecks. 🙂
Non-sense, they are not ordering more than a dozen because the superior next generation engine is not ready yet.
Once it will be ready for production, far more will be ordered by Warrior-President Vladimir.
https://archive.is/lAo3p/ffcc903f9e1914948d86a293c1a75ad7654f549f.jpg
It was July 4 recently, I assume he was partying and BBQing, like any red-blooded American.
Besides, making money for the Revolution must come before commenting on this blog, important as the latter is. We need our Engels, our Aschberg.
That news was mainly about interest in exporting it.
He said there is no need to work on mass production for the moment.
Su-35 is already fulfilling their needs, and when it falls behind other countries’ planes they have this project.
https://youtu.be/uZBaCgXO9xA?t=1m6s
So it seems some kind of consensus view they don’t want to mass produce it for now (mentioned now by two different deputies in Reiner article). Probably, waiting for the engines like the Mitleser wrote. (i.e. the story is nothing extraordinary).
The main part of the story is the export potential mentioned by the deputy in the Reiner article, and that countries are interested in buying it. The article is sceptical that this can happen without mass domestic purchases – but really this demand probably exists in various wealthy countries like the Gulf states, and there are lot of examples of those countries buying things in these scenarios (for example, latest blocks of the F-16 which the US does not buy for itself).
https://www.amren.com/news/2018/07/foreigners-in-russia-are-panicking-over-new-migration-rules/
Thoughts?
Lol Moscow Times
Moscow Times is Moscow Times, but I have to say that Russian “registration” rules are idiotic, a bisarre relic of the Soviet era. They are also routinely ignored, which is why nobody knows Moscow’s real population.
If you rent an apartment in Moscow, you’ll need cooperation of the owner to obtain registration with the authorities, but the owner will refuse to cooperate with you, because of a Soviet-era prejudice that obtaining “propiska” will grant you a claim of ownership. The renters are thus unable to follow migration law. And yet nobody bothers to change the law. The situation is just sort of ignored by the authorities, who (and this is typical in Russia) do not really care about enforcing their stupid laws.
The foreign meddling in American elections continues to expand:
(Emphasis added)
Look for Steve Sailer ::cough::faggot::cough:: to suddenly become a believer in nefarious foreign influences on US elections.
…
re SU-57: The plan was always to only produce 12 of the first bloc of the SU-57. Bloc 1 doesn’t have the next gen engines so Russia probably just decided to scrap bloc 1 completely and push back block 2 from 2025 to 2030.
It’s still amazing the progress Russia has been able to make on a 5th G fighter with such a shoe string R&D budget.
Does anybody know if Russia is getting paid or not for the kit that they provide the Syrians? Is Iran paying for it?
This is interesting analysis in its own right but I doubt any of this can be correlated with Western or American immigration patterns.
Immigration to Russia is more likely to resemble Central American immigration to Mexico than immigration to the US. Russia will predominantly attract truly desperate manual labors from former Soviet republics. The number of Chinese engineers and Indian doctors moving to the country is likely exactly zero.
The “pull factor” is an important consideration and this element is strongly attenuated in the Russian case.
We also get a large amount of Ukrainians and Armenians, who do not limit themselves to manual labor. There are probably more Armenians living in Russia, than in Armenia at this point.
No, it is not fair to say that Russia attracts only desperate people, but it is primarily immigration from the former Soviet Union. There is a language barrier, that’s difficult to overcome, and there is no “welcoming culture” in Russia similar to Western countries (which is a good thing).
The same is true in Prague, Vienna, Germany, etc… It is a general requirement in most of Europe to register. And it is equally ignored in most places (maybe not in Germany).
So if the rule is ‘idiotic and bizarre’, it is so everywhere, why just pick on Russia? There are things that are seriously different (and bad) in Russia, let’s focus on those. The mindless repeating of lazy stereotypes is how we got to this point. At what point are one-sided half-truths lies?
Does it only apply to foreigners, or the citizens from other towns (“иногородние”) must also obtain registration, because this is how registratsiya works in Russia?
Don’t forget that Russian registratsiya is virtually impossible to obtain legally – I just find it hard to believe that any Western country would adopt such idiotic system.
Also, keep in mind that without registratsiya you will be denied most public services, even if you’re a Russian citizen. You won’t be able to get your kids into school for example (as a Russian citizen!) – you must pay a bribe, if you want your kids to attend a Moscow school.
Russian migration laws are simply atrocious. They are primarily designed to discourage internal migration and provide sources of revenue to corrupt officials.
I don’t know about every European country. In Central Europe everyone has to register at their residence, citizens, locals, out-of-towners, foreigners. You have to have a permanent residence that shows on your ID that you use for everything from schools, utilities, post office, etc… If you move, you are supposed to register at your new place, usually within 60-90 days. For that you need either ownership papers or a lease from the owner. It has been like that for over 100 years, people have compulsory IDs and have to be registered.
Landlords don’t like to declare rental income, or deal with renters’ housing issues, so they prefer not to register their renters. But the law requires it. In some countries – and many big cities – it is not very enforced, people usually ‘sub-lease’ from a registered tenant. But there are consequences, you can be fined and it is impossible to get local public services. A child not registered cannot go to a local school, etc… This is also true in many UK-US schools – one has to show local residency to be allowed to register. There are small apartments in wealthier suburbs that have 20-30 people registered as ‘living’ there. Some school districts do random checks to verify that the person is living there.
The laws are byrocratic and out of date. Some people simply stay registered at their parents’ address and don’t bother. My point is that the registration laws are very similar to what you say exists in Russia. For some incomprehensible reason it is always only pointed out as ‘evil in Russia’, often by people who are quite aware that their residence registration systems are the same. Why?
In Hungary many people told me that it’s easier to kick out a tenant who has registration. However, I don’t know of examples when a tenant refused to move, so I don’t know if it’s true or not.
The way it’s supposed to work is that normally the police ask you why you let someone into your apartment, and ignore the case, so you have to go to a court to evict the unwanted tenant. However, if he’s registered, then you just have to tell the police that he’s living there, but you don’t want him, and that’s going to be a situation that they will recognize and they will help.
Again, I don’t know if it’s so.
Anyway, so far all of my tenants have had themselves registered. I have always signed a lease and paid taxes after them.
In Slovakia the issue is that by law you cannot evict any renter who is: pregnant, child up to 18, old or disabled people, or anyone who would end up without a place to stay. That makes registration a problem because it allows renters access to courts. The unregistered have lesser ability to go to court, and usually a landlord simply changes locks.
The registration system is both real and often avoided. Most people I know stay registered in their original village-town (usually where their parents live) and bypass the registration by sub-leasing through someone.
We can agree it is in general a sh..tty system, but there are reasons why it exists. Governments like to control services and registration is a tool to do it. What is amusing is that these are general modern problems that exist in one form or another everywhere in the world. But the obsessive ideologues always and only find them among the ‘enemy populations’. To me that is just weird. I have heard hundreds of people, often foreigners, complain about the sh..tty registration rules in Prague. Many of them Brits and Americans, many working in the media. But that is not news because in Prague one is not supposed to notice. I guess in Moscow one is required to notice it, and hey, for all we know, Putin is micro-managing the registration system in his spare time. He is that evil…
The system seems to work in Hungary according to reiner Tor, but I can tell you it doesn’t work in Russia. There are millions of Russians, who are denied essential public services and unable to vote, because they live and work in a city, where they are not registered. You want to obtain a foreign passport for example – you must pay a bribe, or you could fly to whatever provincial hole you came from, and wait for weeks until the procedure is complete. It’s cheaper and easier to pay a bribe, which is probably by design. There is an entire ecosystem of firms that promise to “solve you issues” for a price – I’m pretty sure these firms are owned by the officials themselves.
To my knowledge the only other country that has a similar system is the Ukraine.
Putin can raise the pension age. He can end “propiska” as well. The fact that he chooses not to amounts to a failure of leadership.
I didn’t say that. Many tenants are too lazy to get registered. You don’t need it for most things. Especially young people without children don’t need it much. But at least all my tenants (young educated guys with higher than average incomes) got registered to my knowledge.
Thread of left wingers talking about Russia sanctions: https://www.resetera.com/threads/senator-ron-johnson-r-wi-says-it%E2%80%99s-time-to-evaluate-whether-to-lift-us-sanctions-on-russia.53920/
Are all American left wingers stupid like that? In my experience – yes, but then I thought US right wingers were even dumber than that, until I found this website…So perhaps, there are places, where smart left wingers reside, we just didn’t find them yet.
American left wingers are usually very intelligent, although admittedly that thread doesn’t provide a lot of evidence for that assertion.
Chapo Trap House commenters are pretty smart.
Well, first off, American leftism isn’t monolithic. Negroes, for instance, are cargo cultists and not intelligent at all on average. White leftists, on the other hand, are women. Some may have a penis, but behaviorally they are women. They’d wail and wring their hands while their wife was raped in front of them instead of grabbing the .357 hidden in the sofa cushions and wasting the rapist without a second thought.
Leftists have no conception of Nature. They’ve never killed anything. Not a raccoon, definitely not a deer, and heaven forfend they’ve even seen video of cows or chickens being slaughtered. They’d wet their panties if left alone in wilderness for twenty minutes, collapsing in terror at the sound of a porcupine snapping a twig. They mind everyone’s business but their own (like a woman) and do retarded shit like crying when a criminal is locked up separately from his (claimed) kids. They may be ‘intelligent’ insofar as IQ scores, but absolutely incapable of survival without masculine assistance. If I may be so blunt, they’re pathetic pussies.
Sadly, far too many conservatives are no better. They’re pathetic men who think a child’s or woman’s tears signal the end of the world rather than innate over-emotionalism. They’re cuckolds who think it’s their duty to support others who are neither close kin nor members of their tribe. They understand nothing of the iron bound laws of Nature even if they have once murdered a fish or a deer. They’re fundamentally either stupid or, like leftists, just women with a penis. Often enough they’re so retarded they think human fecal matter is safe and bugger one another.
The few actual men who remain have erred mightily in tolerating the childish womanly nonsense. We supply 100% of the food. We supply the electricity and clean water. We make the poop harmlessly and magically vanish at the flush of a toilet. We keep you warm and alive in winter. We keep you cool and free from tropical diseases in summer. Rather than acting like men and telling the women and children to shut the fuck up about matters that concern men, we’ve let the inmates run the asylum. We are the only thing standing between them and death, but we act like we need them more than they need us, like ‘Professor of Modern Art’ is more valuable than electrical transmission lineman or plumber or mechanic. We are long overdue for a general strike of all productive men until the natural order is restored.
Blacks have low IQs but most demonstrate a type of hard to quantify street smarts as well as a natural ability to improvise rhymes. It is black leftists, ironically, who really demonstrate black intellectual limitations. They are retarded and are so stupid that they think that they are actually brilliant. Arguing with them is so frustrating often the only satisfying reply to them is just to let them know what niggers they are, because nothing else gets through to them.
A bit of a derail here: nothing makes me angrier than when black leftists start talking about how white America oppresses “minorities” or “people of color”. It’s like, no. Whatever our problems with Muslims, Asians and Latinos are, they are at least fully human. Don’t try to bring them down to your level. And they all hate you way more than we ever could.
As all people with a strong viewpoint (bias?) you only hear what you want to hear, what fits your apriori views. No, the registration systems don’t work well, they are heavily avoided. They are also inevitable, there is no other way for the governments to deliver services without other issues like fraud. It is estimated that in Central Europe 3-5% of population is improperly registered, so they cannot get services. That is millions of people. Services to ‘deal with offices for a fee’, also exist everywhere. It is a whole industry in the West, e.g. US for applying to schools, getting passports, etc…look into it, is it also all ‘corruption’?
Using a menacing term, ‘propiska’, changes nothing. It is similar to renaming most things in Russia with loaded menacing terms, mostly by the locals. They think others don’t have it, they live in a fantasy world, they yearn to avoid reality. You cannot just ‘end propiska’ or registration. Not unless you abolish most residence linked social services like schools, etc…
I usually look at things with a semi-autistic method, dropping the emotional layer. And with Russians there is often not much left once they drop emotions, both good and bad. That is a problem.
I read nymag.com – they have the best contributors IMO. Vox is actually rather underwhelming in this regard. But I wasn’t asking about professional journalists. I meant normal people, like us, but with left-wing political views.
Left-wingers I encounter on the internet are remarkably close-minded: you cannot have a conversation with them, as they are just spouting media cliches at you. They tend to blindly trust institutions and their authority figures, which are features normally associated with right-wing mindset.
I’ll spare you my opinion of Vox, but reiterate the difference between “High IQ” (or “brilliant” as you put it) and masculine understanding of Nature and survival. Leftists have no clue what the laws of Nature dictate. They think food magically appears, electricity comes from the Electric Fairy, and shit is disappeared via inter-dimensional physics wizardry rather than plumbing and wastewater treatment plants. They live in a world of complete delusion. Go ask a “High IQ” humanities professor where electricity comes from or where his Mexican food diarrhea goes. This is how women and children think, not men. It is entirely the product of living under the shelter and protection of men (real ones) while never having to get your own hands dirty or bloody.
If one really wants to shut down leftists, simply cut off the food, electricity, and plumbing we provide them. They’ll never figure out how to restore it and starve or freeze to death in piles of their own shit. Africans, at least and despite their low IQs, would probably survive since they’re well adapted to such conditions (except the freezing). They’ll just whelp twenty kids and ten percent will survive to repeat the cycle of African existence. White leftists will become extinct. Look at Detroit or Benton Harbor where they can’t keep street lights working. Or Flint where they can’t figure out how to get unleaded water (let alone unleaded gasoline!) Negroes continue to thrive in these environments while white leftists run to us for help (“Please Mr Redneck Cracker, build us a new pipeline!) It’s past time to stop helping them.
This doesn’t really make sense.
The system of registration in Russia essentially attaches you to your permament place of residency, because moving somewhere means losing public services. That’s exactly what propiska as an institution was meant to achieve – totalitarian Soviet government didn’t want its citizens moving about. But how does this make sense in a contemporary Russian environment, where freedom of movement is seen as a right?
Registratsiya is primarily a product bureaucratic inertia at this point. Abolishing it will make everyone better off, except for the corrupt officials, who at present collect bribes to make you a passport.
DETROIT NATIVE HERE
The “Redneck Cracker” has an impressive visual-spatial IQ but is curiously lacks the capacity for abstractions and is immensely unwary/lacking in street smarts.
This is most evident to the urban white-like myself-in 4-H club interactions with blacks. Hicks are just are incredibly naive and most likely to end up getting jumped by blacks for something they do/say or somewhere they go.
Rednecks get busted every time they do something wrong, get knocked up every time they screw, get hooked on the most awful drugs.
They are not worldly at all, except for the truckers and oil workers.
As for Detroit and Flint, that is simply the Federal government saying that these cities are no longer worth bailing out. And there is no local tax base because anyone with the initiative to hold a decent job moved away. So it is nothing but poor elderly and crack whores and ex-cons who will never hold a job.
We saw this in Haiti 200 years ago. When a black population gets to 50%, there is no longer any possible way for whites to support or govern them. So the whites either flee or are killed.
I think I mentioned it here previously: when the Tsaernevs bombed the Boston Marathon, begun in 1897, and previously, I believe unbombed, there were only like 100 Chechens in America. They did not come from a good family – their sister was a thief who threatened people with terrorism. I wonder about the other 90 or so. How many thieves/violent people/welfare abusers?
Some put it down to them having a high ANE genetic component. Arguably a factor tying together historically warlike people: Europeans and Native Americans.
What is it about the concept that pretty much every other country in the world has a similar system that you don’t understand?
Freedom of movement is enshrined in the constitution itself and the registration system does not contradict that clause. You are free to move about, and move to, anywhere in the country. If you move, you can change your registration. Frankly, considering the amount of Chechens in Moscow, I wonder if this was such a good idea in the first place.
No, it does not. You simply register at your new residence and the public services are available.
lol you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about! One does not simply register in Moscow.
I don’t understand why a foreigner would feel the need to defend the worst aspects of Russian life without experiencing them first hand? If this is what ‘Russophilia’ supposed to be about, then it’s pretty lame. One can be pro-Russian, while also aknowledging that the country is a mismanaged mess.
One reason why the US has such a strong economy is that it enjoys incredible mobility of labor. A Californian thinks nothing about moving to Massachusetts for a good job. No propiska there.
https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/us-labor-mobility.png
I don’t see why Russia needs to orient itself towards European losers, and that’s not even going into Felix’s point about its system also being subject to corruption.
Let’s orient our policies around considerations about an ethnic group constituting 1% of the population.
PS. Late edit, but I just want to add that liberalization won’t even much affect the Chechen situation, or Caucasians in general, since they already have powerful diaspora support networks that ease the migration process. Something that cannot be said for ethnic Russians.
Welcome to the shitty club bro. I was born a few blocks and a few months from ground zero of the 12th St riots.
I was thinking electricians, plumbers/welders/pipefitters, mechanics, farmers, heavy equipment operators, etc, but whatever. The guys who actually make our lives possible and directly in contrast to every professor at WSU, Eastern, UofM, OU, etc. Guys who go blow the shit out of the woods on Nov 15 are men versus the limp wristed faggots who talk about “transgender rights” in the classroom. Leftists are usually the latter although here in the Mitten we still have a lot of real men who vote left because their fathers did. The ideal is a High IQ dude who likes to kill things, get his hands dirty and bloody, but today that’s a pretty small subset of the population isn’t it? Better to hunt with hunters than hunt for men among pussies.
You are not able to see realities clearly. Do you understand that by using scary words, like ‘propiska’, ‘totalitarian’, you don’t say anything? It changes nothing on the basic reality that people are required to register in order to get government services in most places in the world. Yes, it is inefficient, it is often corrupt, it is against one’s right to ‘freedom of movement’. But an alternative would be worse – there would fraud, there are hustlers who will take advantage of social programs.
You cannot square a circle. Complaining about it is childish. And, please, try to use neutral terms: ‘propiska’ is just registration, don’t use words to deceive. We have Western MSM and politicians for that.
Not sure to what extent that’s even true. You can only enroll in one school. You can abuse medical services, but most normal people don’t like spending their time at hospitals. Etc., etc.
Quality of schools varies dramatically, people will game the system to be allowed in the best available school based on residency. Same with medical care and other government provided benefits. For that there has to be a system to determine who lives where.
It is an imperfect system everywhere, but it is similar to Russia in most of the West. With modern mobility it can be frustrating. What is weird is that the same people who only quietly grumble about it in Prague, will write endless stories about how the ‘totalitarian propiska’ in Moscow is pure evil probably run by Putin himself.
It is the same basic system. It might be enforced differently, but I am not sure Germans enforce it less than Russians. Germans also have compulsory national IDs – the evil ‘internal passports‘ of Western imagination. So does most of Europe.
I’ve lived in Moscow for the better part of the last two and a half decades. I have a Moscow registration, as does my wife, and all of my other close family members. And I’m not defending anything, the system is dysfunctional and mismanaged, like everything else here, though it certainly has improved over the years. What’s bizarre is your contention that this is somehow unique to Russia.
I’d be curious to know how old you are, where you live and what your occupation is. You’re clearly not an idiot, but your posts often come across as rather naive and provincial. There are a lot of very legitimate issues to complain about in Russian life, but the registration system is not one of them.
Firstly, propiska refers to the system that existed under the Soviet Union, only sovoks use that word now. As regards labor mobility, it’s not clear to me how that is a function of a system of registration, or lack thereof. If an oil worker in Tyumen gets a good job offer in Surgut, he can’t move because, propiska?
In the US, moving from state to state, or even within state, requires certain bureaucratic procedures. For instance, you are required to change your driver’s license to the state where you are now resident, or notify them of a change of address if within state. Incidentally, I understand this is not the case in Russia now, where a citizen can get any service at any GAI regardless of where he is registered. Yes, a trip to the local DMV is a much different experience than the passportnyi stol/MVD/FMS merry-go-round, but it’s a legal requirement nonetheless.
No, the considerations would be for the 99%. Anyway, that was an off-the-cuff comment and not particularly germane to the conversation. What made me think of the Chechens, actually, was a previous discussion of yours with your old friend Glossy. He was holding up the Soviet propiska system as a model to control internal migration and keep certain nationalities separate. I’d never heard anyone defending that aspect of Soviet life before so it stuck in my memory.
I’m amused by your open borders advocation, it’s a side of you we don’t get to see very often. How would you suggest modifying/liberalizing the current system in Russia? Do away with internal passports and registration altogether?
While registration is indeed not unique to Russia, the process is much more onerous in Russia than in the USA. In the USA, getting a state ID/driver’s license simply requires coming to the DMV with an ID such as a driver’s license, and some utility bills, lease agreement, or bank statement with the new address. This might involve a couple hours waiting for one’s number to be called.
Well, it’s much less in Hungary, in my somewhat dated experience at most half an hour. But I doubt it got worse since 2005, and it seems to me that other official business at the municipality takes roughly half an hour, too. Last time I was there was in April.
Yes, of course, and I mentioned this specifically in my reply to AK. I think pretty much any interaction with the bureaucracy is going to be better in the US than in Russia. But there’s a difference between streamlining the bureaucracy, making it more efficient and less corrupt, and eliminating the system entirely. Because the problem is endemic everywhere, not just in the registration system. Would people be in favor of getting rid of, say, the entire GAI, as much as everyone despises them, just because they are corrupt and inefficient?
YES.
I also don’t see how it’s contradictory to anything I have written previously, which have generally been in favor of fewer regulations of all kinds, e.g. praising Putin for improving Russia in the Ease of Doing Business ratings) from calling for greater firearms liberalization.
I also believe that the current territorial-administrative system (especially the humiliating existence of the various ethnic Republics) is a Soviet relic that needs to be done away with.
I am generally in favor of everything that makes life easier, more comfortable, and freer for ordinary people.
Obviously I don’t want to extend “open borders” to international borders, or rather – bearing in mind the Donbass, or Belorussia – specifically with respect to lower-IQ, poorer, demographically vigorous, and culturally incompatible countries.
Maybe a major reason for the high labour mobility in the US is the value given to work there .
In other countries family ,friends and personal interests probably carry much more weight than in the US in any “will I move for a job or not” decisions
Whether this a good thing or not is another matter entirely
Notice that it is always Russian MEN complaining about immigration to Russia?
This is because they know that they can’t compete with American men. This guy below demonstrates how it’s done. Can you imagine a Russian guy with this level of game? Fuck no.
Watch and learn, losers.
Tiny Duck, Upgraded.
Sure. The problem is that in Russia it was so much worse that it becomes almost like a different phenomenon. I’ve heard it has improved now, but 10 or so years ago registration involved going to numerous offices and spending many hours. It would have been better to just scrap the whole system and replace it with a different simplified one.
Hegelian dialectic posits quantity growing into quality. But it is a tough one to determine. A lot of testimonials compare worst cases in Russia with a more light-hearted and permissive West. There is a natural selectivity and the fact that Russians (and eastern Europeans in general) are a lot more critical and skeptical than Westerners colours those testimonials. Westerners – anglos in particular – are ‘happy’ talkers, they talk things up, often because they are always selling something.
Hollywood has probably in its history not had a single story-line about the travails with US byrocracy. It is not pretty, it doesn’t sell. Hollywood sells. On the other hand, almost every Eastern European movie deals with frustrations with life, the darkness and desperation are oozing out of most characters.
I have never dealt with Russian byrocracy, so I will stay quiet on it. But to claim that ‘registration’, etc… are not frustrating and ‘corrupt’ in the West is simply not true.
Meanwhile in Germany, a top journalist wants to destroy the old Germany…
Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/einwanderung-ein-deutscher-traum-kolumne-a-1217379.html
In the USA there are no internal passports and a driver’s license functions as “registration” (people who for some reason can’t drive obtain a state ID at the same place where people get driver’s licenses).
I have moved around several times in the USA and each time the process was very simple – take the old driver’s license to the Department of Motor Vehicles with a bank statement and some bill showing the new address, pay a fee, have a new photo taken at the DMV, and you have the new address “registered” in the form of a new driver’s license. It is not uncommon to have to take a number and wait an hour or three. People are bitter about this wait, and the DMV serves as a lesson to American children about what socialism is like – imagine if the entire economy functioned like the DMV.
When my wife was registering in Moscow, she had to travel to several offices around the city, get stamped paperwork from each one, and spend hours in each office. If something was not completely right she would have to come back. And she wasn’t even getting a new registration – she had let her internal passport expire because she was in America and had not paid attention. In America this process would involve bringing in the expired license with a fresh bill or bank statement and that’s it.
It is harder to get a new registration. There are cases where people marry Muscovites just to get registration in Moscow! Perhaps in Slovakia it is different?
The end-result of America-worship. Yet more evidence for why the American regime must perish.
US and UK don’t have the same rules, we mentioned that. Most of EU does, so compare those countries to Russia. There are other examples of byrocracy in US, from DMV to taxes, it can be pretty bad.
Slovakia has just implemented a system to allow for all registration-passports-IDs to be processed in any of the Dept of Interior offices around the country – progress. But in order to register one still has to have either a property certificate not older than 60 days from another office, or a valid rental agreement with a landlord. It is possible that some unfortunate souls have married to get it, but I don’t know of any cases. It is onerous and I don’t like it. But there is simply no other way to do it if there are social programs (education, medical, etc…) that are based on one’s residency. People will lie and cheat – everywhere – and a system that is totally open will collapse because of increased fraud.
Or we can all chill in the countryside. There are rumors of dozens of people who ‘dropped out’ and live in the mountains with no documents and no hassles. Last I heard, a few security analysts think that some of them might be working for Putin – so there you go, the damn Muscovites screw us either way, propiska pushing bastards.
Migrant crisis is shaking up Europe, so this German journo-moron comes out and says what they would like: ‘get rid of Germans‘. It takes years of progressive education to cheer on one’s demise.
Yeah, why not? As my grandpa used to say about a revolution: ‘the world shook and all sh..t floated to the surface‘…
Seriously, WTF? To me that is code for a large powerful state – like China, when it is not politically feasible to say “China.” He’s picturing grand top-down plans like going to the moon, without the original sin of domestic Negro slavery. It is negrophilia and moon-worship, rolled-into one.
Total crap argument, often made. Either completely disingenuous, or a straw blowing in the wind trying to justify himself. Venezuela should not be a welfare state. The math doesn’t balance and its very existence is barbaric, but the demographic math sort of balances (despite the exodus) and that is all you need. It is true of almost every shithole in existence. None are libertarian paradises. Because the state was originally created to defend the nation, and not defending is a drug-induced, Utopian dream.
He either doesn’t understand the term, or he doesn’t understand what’s happened to America. He means “Balkanization.”
Germany did not invent itself. Bismark, the Blood and Iron Chancellor, forged it.
The DMV proves, to my mind, that politics is mostly hereditary.
The same is true of immigrants everywhere: I have never heard of anyone complaining about the Swedish Bikini Team kidnapping them and holding them for ransom.
As I showed, DMV is bad by the standards of spoiled Americans. It is good by European standards.
Slovakia is a well-governed country. Apparently even Hungary is not that bad either. But it seems Russia is way worse, because you need to go to several different places to get one registration done. So the system could easily be improved.
Might be true for some countries, but certainly not Russia.
Statistics for the US not given here, but it’s hard to see it being much (or at all) ahead of Russia – one of the most materialistic civilizations on the planet.
https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/attitudes-to-being-rich.png
Here is my experience of registration/passport issues in Russia, c. late 2016: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/chinovnik-tales/
anony-mouse has a journalist position now!
Generalplan Europa.
When I bought the apartment, registration in the new place took 15 minutes of my time.
How much did you pay for your apartment? That’s the price of obtaining (legal) registratsiya in Russia. It’s fucked up!
About 5 million rubles. Of course, the state took a tax on the sale of apartments, but this is a universal practice.
Now imagine that you’ll want to move to another city: do you buy an apartment in that city or rent? If you’re renting, the owner will almost certainly refuse to help you register in his apartment, which will complicate your life in a number of ways.
Is there some reason why “rednecks” are your favorite punching bag?
There is no closed season on rednecks, no bag limit.
Somebody has to be mucking things up. If it’s not the Jews, the capitalists, the blacks, etc., that only leaves the rednecks. Besides, there is no downside to blaming them (us).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dlNyN8qNvgc
Somewhat funny.
FYI, redneck =/ white trash.
I know – your statement just reminded me of this.
Peace.
Out of the total American population, what percentage would you consider to be ‘rednecks’?
Things Only a True Southerner Knows…
By Jean Brandau, About.com Guide
There are certain things that only Southerners know or appreciate about the South. Northerners can try to understand, but mostly, they don’t even know WHAT they don’t understand. Some of these “jokes” go around and around the internet and back and forth through email. I don’t know WHO wrote this…but I do know that it just had to be a real, true Southerner:
I LOVE Being Southern…
Only a Southerner knows the difference between a hissie fit and a conniption fit, and that you don’t “HAVE” them, you “PITCH” them.
Only a Southerner knows how many fish, collard greens, turnip greens, peas, beans, etc., make up “a mess.”
Only a Southerner can show or point out to you the general direction of “yonder.”
Only a Southerner knows exactly how long “directly” is — as in: “Going to town, be back directly.
Even Southern babies know that “Gimme some sugar” is not a request for the white, granular sweet substance that sits in a pretty little bowl in the middle of the table.
All Southerners know exactly when “by and by” is. They might not use the term, but they know the concept well.
Only a Southerner knows instinctively that the best gesture of solace for a neighbor who’s got trouble is a plate of hot fried chicken and a big bowl of cold potato salad. If the neighbor’s trouble is a real crisis, they also know to add a large banana puddin!
Only Southerners grow up knowing the difference between “right near” and “a right far piece.” They also know that “just down the road” can be 1 mile or 20.
Only a Southerner, both knows and understands, the difference between a redneck, a good ol’ boy, and po’ white trash.
No true Southerner would ever assume that the car with the flashing turn signal is actually going to make a turn.
A Southerner knows that “fixin” can be used as a noun, a verb, or an adverb.
Only Southerners make friends while standing in lines. We don’t do “queues,” we do “lines”; and when we’re “in line,” we talk to everybody!
Southerners never refer to one person as “ya’ll.”
Southerners know grits come from corn and how to eat them.
Every Southerner knows tomatoes with eggs, bacon, grits, and coffee are perfectly wonderful; that red eye gravy is also a breakfast food; and that fried green tomatoes are not a breakfast food.
When you hear someone say, “Well, I caught myself lookin’,” you know you are in the presence of a genuine Southerner!
Only true Southerners say “sweet tea” and “sweet milk.” Sweet tea indicates the need for sugar and lots of it — we do not like our tea unsweetened. “Sweet milk” means you don’t want buttermilk.
Bless your hearts, ya’ll have a blessed day.
~Anonymous
I don’t know, maybe 40-50 % of whites. What do you estimate?
For America? 40-50% might sound reasonable, I don’t really know.
For northern European countries: 10-20% of the native population.
Broader Germanic Europe: 15-30%
Eastern or Southern Europe: Probably a lot more.
Bear in mind I am not entirely sure what it takes for Americans to consider someone a ‘redneck’.
Nice – thanks for that bit of culture. That was pretty cool.
Peace.